Christian Forums

Quote from: LexKnight on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 11:30:58
Winsome isn't far off, though I wouldn't word it like he did. The facts are the Lord clearly stated it's the one who does the Will of God who enters, and James already said we're not justified before God by faith alone. However, they're not works ad much as they are simple obedience. If the Lord tells one "Move to San Francisco, I have work for you there," and one refuses to because they're "saved by faith alone," you really expect that person to have favor from the Lord? Yes the obedience must come by faith, but nonetheless there are expectations.

excuse me - what has all this got to do with the original post re born again - wincam

Quote from: wincam on Sat Feb 06, 2016 - 18:06:56

Quote from: LexKnight on Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 11:30:58
Winsome isn't far off, though I wouldn't word it like he did. The facts are the Lord clearly stated it's the one who does the Will of God who enters, and James already said we're not justified before God by faith alone. However, they're not works ad much as they are simple obedience. If the Lord tells one "Move to San Francisco, I have work for you there," and one refuses to because they're "saved by faith alone," you really expect that person to have favor from the Lord? Yes the obedience must come by faith, but nonetheless there are expectations.

excuse me - what has all this got to do with the original post re born again - wincam

It's related to where the topic digressed. The idea of born again adults explained this way is... silly.

mclees8,

Sorry for the late response, but here it goes:

Quote
And you sir respectfully know nothing about who and what the church is. From Pentecost the  church was comprised of all who believed and is no less to today.

If I had a nickel for every post like this one, I could buy something nice.  Note the total lack of any scripture quotes here.    How many books on eclesiology have you read? 

Let me start with the basic definition of church - it is a gathering.    Are Star Trek fans a gathering?  No.  They may gather at conventions but you don't have to go to conventions (church) to be a Star Trek fan (Christian).  Thus, those written in the book of life are not a gathering. 

I like how you ignored my scripture references and went straight to - I'm right and you're wrong.  How does the NT describe the church?  it has people in roles, it can execute judgment, and it is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).    Can individuals hold these things by themselves? Does one person judge himself?  Do I say I am a prophet to myself and I am one? Does one look only to himself to find truth? No.

Where do you get this view that the church equals those who are saved?  Well, that comes from history and because Protestantism comes so late in history they could not claim to be the physical church on earth, so they made up this ethereal church of some nongathering of believers.  Look up the story of Arius sometime and you'll see people back in the early days they didn't even conceive of this definition that you insist on.

Quote
You and your Catholic friends live in an institutionalized authoritarian order that parades itself in being religious but from the beginning it was not that way.

Firstly, my church is not authoritarian.  Then, the church was religious in the beginning.  Authority was honored in those days in ways we may find over the top today.  But it's hard for us in the 21st century to get because authority is so dishonored here.   

Quote
The church is born from above and is not of this world as to put any faith in men But in Christ

Your definition is wrong because it has no physicality.  The church is born from above--what does that mean?  Jesus says to Peter on this *rock* (a physical item) I will build my church.  The church is not a concept but a reality that has both physical and spiritual aspects.  Under your definition above, it is simply salvation.  It's not what the Bible says.  Jesus is both physical and spiritual, so are we, so is the church.

That's not true.  The Church as Mclees described it is both Spiritual and Physical.  It's not simply salvation. It is the Physical beings (men and women) who are saved by grace (Salvation/Spirit)... thus the making of the church is both Spiritual and Physical. 

You cling to your Catholic institutional as being the definition of Church.  But, Christ is not bound to that and will save who He may.  Inviting them to become the Church upon being saved and becoming part of Him.

Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it so.  Tis so.

kensington,

Quote
The Church as Mclees described it is both Spiritual and Physical.  It's not simply salvation. It is the Physical beings (men and women) who are saved by grace (Salvation/Spirit)... thus the making of the church is both Spiritual and Physical. 

What you are describing is not church.  Mclees is saying that the church is those written in the book of life.  You appear to be saying the same thing.    You say the people make the church physical and salvation is the spiritual.   If people are the physical aspect of the church, then corporations really are people.   The church is not just people.  The Bible describes it otherwise.  Reread my posts for the Scriptural references.

Quote
You cling to your Catholic institutional as being the definition of Church.

Actually, no.  I've looked into this, read books on ecclesiology (including non-Catholic ones)
and of course, what the NT has to say about it.  I've even explained why Protestants cling to this definition of church as an never-meeting ethereal entity even though the word church means gathering.

Quote
But, Christ is not bound to that and will save who He may.

I agree with you here.  With God, anything is possible!

Quote
Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it so.  Tis so.

Except that I've used history to explain why Protestants & Catholics say what they do and more importantly,  use Scripture to back up my opinion.    While you and mclees say that you know better than me based on your own opinion with no Scriptural references and blame Catholicism for my opinion.




   

Tell me... When Jesus wrote to "The Churches" in the Revelation... was He writing to buildings, or peoples.  Was he writing to the hierarchy or those who comprise the church who did the works and sinned and or pleased Him?  Was He writing to documents and dogmas?  Or was he writing to the congregations of born again people who were the church? 

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

that's easy, at least it is for one who knows.  one who has 'crossed over' from lack of knowledge / head knowledge - to heart knowledge. 

he was saved by his belief. God knows our heart and when our heart is open to Him, God changes it and we are saved.  Christ knew the heart of the thief on the cross.

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 03:00:08

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

that's easy, at least it is for one who knows.  one who has 'crossed over' from lack of knowledge / head knowledge - to heart knowledge. 

he was saved by his belief. God knows our heart and when our heart is open to Him, God changes it and we are saved.  Christ knew the heart of the thief on the cross.

Actually the thief on the cross did good works:

He rebuked the other thief who mocked Jesus "But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?"

He acknowledged his sinfulness and asked Jesus for forgiveness "And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds".... And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He defended Jesus "this man has done nothing wrong."

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 04:02:14

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 03:00:08

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

that's easy, at least it is for one who knows.  one who has 'crossed over' from lack of knowledge / head knowledge - to heart knowledge. 

he was saved by his belief. God knows our heart and when our heart is open to Him, God changes it and we are saved.  Christ knew the heart of the thief on the cross.

Actually the thief on the cross did good works:

He rebuked the other thief who mocked Jesus "But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?"

He acknowledged his sinfulness and asked Jesus for forgiveness "And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds".... And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He defended Jesus "this man has done nothing wrong."

he acknowledged belief in God,  identified himself as a sinner and Jesus as King...

sounds like what non-Catholics do in an altar call (or anywhere) when they get saved.

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 06:57:06

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 04:02:14

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 03:00:08

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

that's easy, at least it is for one who knows.  one who has 'crossed over' from lack of knowledge / head knowledge - to heart knowledge. 

he was saved by his belief. God knows our heart and when our heart is open to Him, God changes it and we are saved.  Christ knew the heart of the thief on the cross.

Actually the thief on the cross did good works:

He rebuked the other thief who mocked Jesus "But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?"

He acknowledged his sinfulness and asked Jesus for forgiveness "And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds".... And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He defended Jesus "this man has done nothing wrong."

he acknowledged belief in God,  identified himself as a sinner and Jesus as King...

sounds like what non-Catholics do in an altar call (or anywhere) when they get saved.

And he rebuked the other thief, and defended Jesus. You seemed to have missed those. He did all that was possible for him to do in the circumstances he was in.

And before you say he didn't need to be baptised - baptism was not commanded until after Jesus rose from the dead.

The problem with the alter call idea is that it is unscriptural and ignores the command of Jesus to be baptised. 'Altar calls' are typical "I'll do it my way" approach of Protestants.

skeeter,

If you believe that works are not necessary to get to heaven then how do you explain Matthew 25:31-46?

James says "faith apart from works is dead" (Jas 2:26). Do you think you can get to heaven with dead faith?

Winsome... WHY will you enter in to this discussion.. but not answer the simple question "What did Jesus do on the Cross" if he did not purchase us from sin??   
PLEASE answer to the comments you stated. 

Quote from: kensington on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 13:53:14
Winsome... WHY will you enter in to this discussion.. but not answer the simple question "What did Jesus do on the Cross" if he did not purchase us from sin??   
PLEASE answer to the comments you stated.

Everything started with Jesus on the cross who became the sacrifice for all - yes, He alone paid the ultimate price.  Through Him we have salvation and eternal life, but each of us has a part to play as we go through our lives. Belief, faith and works go hand in hand - according to the Holy Scriptures and the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church.

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 19:50:15

Quote from: kensington on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 13:53:14
Winsome... WHY will you enter in to this discussion.. but not answer the simple question "What did Jesus do on the Cross" if he did not purchase us from sin??   
PLEASE answer to the comments you stated.

Everything started with Jesus on the cross who became the sacrifice for all - yes, He alone paid the ultimate price.  Through Him we have salvation and eternal life, but each of us has a part to play as we go through our lives. Belief, faith and works go hand in hand - according to the Holy Scriptures and the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church.

1. I didn't ask you.
2. I asked Winsome to answer this as Winsome is the one who said Jesus did not.

Your answer is a moot point since you didn't declare that Jesus did not pay for our sins.  Thanks anyway.

Quote from: kensington on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 20:05:44

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 19:50:15

Quote from: kensington on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 13:53:14
Winsome... WHY will you enter in to this discussion.. but not answer the simple question "What did Jesus do on the Cross" if he did not purchase us from sin??   
PLEASE answer to the comments you stated.

Everything started with Jesus on the cross who became the sacrifice for all - yes, He alone paid the ultimate price.  Through Him we have salvation and eternal life, but each of us has a part to play as we go through our lives. Belief, faith and works go hand in hand - according to the Holy Scriptures and the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church.

1. I didn't ask you.
2. I asked Winsome to answer this as Winsome is the one who said Jesus did not.

Your answer is a moot point since you didn't declare that Jesus did not pay for our sins.  Thanks anyway.

You know, I find it hard that Winsome could say that Jesus did not pay for our sins as that is a basic teaching of the Catholic Church and Winsome is indeed a faithful member. Perhaps he is just playing with you?

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 07:32:21

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 06:57:06

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 04:02:14

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 03:00:08

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 - 16:06:25
I just want to ask you winsome. How many good works must one do to get to heaven. 10,20 30 100 200 300? is there any certain number of works one must fulfill.  Will one work get you to heaven will 300 get you there?
I find it astonishing one who claims to know the gospel of Christ not understanding  the basic tenants of our faith

We are becoming like Christ not how much we can appease Him with all our works.

But here is a dyeing man who before passing confessed Christ as Lord as savior of his soul. What do you say? did he make to heaven? The Thief next to Jesus could not fulfill one good work. What was it that saved him?

that's easy, at least it is for one who knows.  one who has 'crossed over' from lack of knowledge / head knowledge - to heart knowledge. 

he was saved by his belief. God knows our heart and when our heart is open to Him, God changes it and we are saved.  Christ knew the heart of the thief on the cross.

Actually the thief on the cross did good works:

He rebuked the other thief who mocked Jesus "But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?"

He acknowledged his sinfulness and asked Jesus for forgiveness "And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds".... And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

He defended Jesus "this man has done nothing wrong."

he acknowledged belief in God,  identified himself as a sinner and Jesus as King...

sounds like what non-Catholics do in an altar call (or anywhere) when they get saved.

And he rebuked the other thief, and defended Jesus. You seemed to have missed those. He did all that was possible for him to do in the circumstances he was in.

And before you say he didn't need to be baptised - baptism was not commanded until after Jesus rose from the dead.

The problem with the alter call idea is that it is unscriptural and ignores the command of Jesus to be baptised. 'Altar calls' are typical "I'll do it my way" approach of Protestants.

I didn't miss them. defending Jesus has nothing to do with it.  He doesn't need defending.

post the verses w/bk/chp/vs were He commands water baptism to be saved.

the altar call is very scriptural (tho not the RC). call on the name of the Lord, repent - you'll find it all thru the NT (starting with Acts)

they have nothing to do with 'doing it my way' but completely God's way.  That it even happens is up to God/the Father. And it's done like that in the NT - at the group teachings of Jesus and the Apostles when people would hear the word and believe...

now the RCC, that's them doing it their way... not God's, not by His word.

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 09:59:45

Quote from: Rella on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 08:46:50

Your beliefs are not at all surprising considering your Pope said

"Pope Says Having A Personal Relationship With Jesus Is Dangerous And Harmful"
"And that a personal relationship with Jesus is wrong."

http://godfruits.tv/pope-says-personal-relationship-jesus-harmful/ 

That is a blatant LIE!

Pope Francis did not say either of those things

You need to repent

get a grip! why the huge type size? you think we all suddenly went blind ?

Quote from: Jsta Babbler on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:18:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 11:54:13

Quote from: Jsta Babbler on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:18:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 11:54:13
How do you find this to contribute to the thread, Babbler?

OK;
Who are these Wild Goats spoken of by Job, God and David
plz. note:
these are  Wild Goats, Not in Bondage too nor the Servants of Man or Men

I think you might be posting on a different thread than you mean to.

No, we are discussing ".. You must be Born Again"

Matt.23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

Christ asked Nicodemus
( one of the Tutors and Governors Paul speaks of in Gal. ch 4 )

Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
You  setting in the Seat of Moses as a Tutor and Governor of Isreal
and you know not these things

?

Christ had not began his ministery yet
the were no Apostles at that time
SO:::
Where was Nicodemus supposed to learn of this
--- Born Again Experience ----
this
".. You must be Born Again"

Ps. 29:9
"The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve,...."


There ain't no Magic in the Water
___________________________________________________________________

are you saying that Jesus had no ministry or apostles in Matt 23?

your posts are difficult to follow.  not only in the wording (changing, changing...)

popcorn? really? is your aim to start up drama?  I usually skip your posts cause they just don't make sense but thought I'd read your reply to MMM - and it doesn't make sense.

it looks like in the middle part of your post you got confused?  maybe it'd be better to eat popcorn when you're not posting?

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:20:54

Quote from: Jsta Babbler on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:18:08
There ain't no Magic in the Water

*Finally* you make your point.  Thanks.

ah... that was the point of all of that?

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:36:10

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 11:53:15
We mare not reading the same Bible,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
. Tit 3:5

Washing of regeneration comes when one first believes tha Jesus is Lord and repents in his sins in his heart heart.   Take the thief on the cross When was he regenerated?  You have Jesus locked up in a box of laws.

Washing of regeneration - water of rebirth - same thing.

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Amplified Bible)

did you just leave the RCC beliefs in the past day?

the 'new birth'/ born again comes from the Holy Spirit.  we are baptized into Christ.  no water used (the liquid).  did you know that water is a sign of the Holy Spirit?  What did Jesus say to the woman at the well (where she went to get - water)?
go thru God's word and connect up 'water' with 'Holy Spirit' / 'outpouring of......

John 4

13 Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again,

14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water that I shall give him will become in him a well of water springing up into eternal life."


after the death and resurrection, the baptism of John was no more -  no more water

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 21:15:01

Quote from: kensington on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 20:05:44

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 19:50:15

Quote from: kensington on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 13:53:14
Winsome... WHY will you enter in to this discussion.. but not answer the simple question "What did Jesus do on the Cross" if he did not purchase us from sin??   
PLEASE answer to the comments you stated.

Everything started with Jesus on the cross who became the sacrifice for all - yes, He alone paid the ultimate price.  Through Him we have salvation and eternal life, but each of us has a part to play as we go through our lives. Belief, faith and works go hand in hand - according to the Holy Scriptures and the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church.

1. I didn't ask you.
2. I asked Winsome to answer this as Winsome is the one who said Jesus did not.

Your answer is a moot point since you didn't declare that Jesus did not pay for our sins.  Thanks anyway.

You know, I find it hard that Winsome could say that Jesus did not pay for our sins as that is a basic teaching of the Catholic Church and Winsome is indeed a faithful member. Perhaps he is just playing with you?

I beg your pardon, but he did say that...  read below... 

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 08, 2016 - 04:11:23

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Feb 07, 2016 - 22:04:12

Quote from: winsome on Sun Feb 07, 2016 - 14:33:51

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Feb 04, 2016 - 23:46:57
OK, I will make some time for these questions.

1. Did Christ pay the legal penalty for our sins? Yes or No?

And the answer is....yes! (wonder where you are going with this)

You were the one who called Catholicism legalism.

As the above show it's Protestantism that is legalism.

You have so little understanding, or do you just pretend?
Jesus paid the legal punishment for us, so we do not have to!
If God would judge us by legal means...none of us would go to heaven.

No he didn't. It's Protestant legalism that thinks he did.

Is this a discussion about born-again-adults or is it a discussion on what Jesus did on the cross?

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 00:25:49

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:36:10

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 11:53:15
We mare not reading the same Bible,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
. Tit 3:5

Washing of regeneration comes when one first believes tha Jesus is Lord and repents in his sins in his heart heart.   Take the thief on the cross When was he regenerated?  You have Jesus locked up in a box of laws.

Washing of regeneration - water of rebirth - same thing.

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Amplified Bible)

did you just leave the RCC beliefs in the past day?

the 'new birth'/ born again comes from the Holy Spirit.  we are baptized into Christ.  no water used (the liquid).  did you know that water is a sign of the Holy Spirit?  What did Jesus say to the woman at the well (where she went to get - water)?
go thru God's word and connect up 'water' with 'Holy Spirit' / 'outpouring of......

John 4

13 Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again,

14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water that I shall give him will become in him a well of water springing up into eternal life."


after the death and resurrection, the baptism of John was no more -  no more water

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)
Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 00:25:49

after the death and resurrection, the baptism of John was no more -  no more water

Untrue

 

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 21:22:50

post the verses w/bk/chp/vs were He commands water baptism to be saved.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28: 19)......... He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

And before you tell me I'm linking two different speeches,  they are both from post-resurrection speeches by Jesus to the apostles; both part of instructions to go into the whole world and preach the gospel.


Jesus also said "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)

As Peter wrote "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)

As Paul wrote "..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)

I can give you many verses that show that baptism is with water, and many verses that show that baptism saves us.

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 03:40:25

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 00:25:49

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:36:10

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 11:53:15
We mare not reading the same Bible,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
. Tit 3:5

Washing of regeneration comes when one first believes tha Jesus is Lord and repents in his sins in his heart heart.   Take the thief on the cross When was he regenerated?  You have Jesus locked up in a box of laws.

Washing of regeneration - water of rebirth - same thing.

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Amplified Bible)

did you just leave the RCC beliefs in the past day?

the 'new birth'/ born again comes from the Holy Spirit.  we are baptized into Christ.  no water used (the liquid).  did you know that water is a sign of the Holy Spirit?  What did Jesus say to the woman at the well (where she went to get - water)?
go thru God's word and connect up 'water' with 'Holy Spirit' / 'outpouring of......

John 4

13 Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again,

14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water that I shall give him will become in him a well of water springing up into eternal life."

after the death and resurrection, the baptism of John was no more -  no more water

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)

Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

read the full story of the eunuch - he believed,  then he was baptized in water.  and that was prior to the death and resurrection, right?

are you referring to 2 that I posted about water as the Holy Spirit or did you search out water and the Holy Spirit and only find 2?


Titus 3
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit,  6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  7 so that, being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 03:40:25

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 00:25:49

after the death and resurrection, the baptism of John was no more -  no more water

Untrue

yes, it is true. you don't know it because the RCC hasn't told you (they aren't Bible believing and teaching) ... and you don't study His word on your own.

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 04:45:42

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 21:22:50

post the verses w/bk/chp/vs were He commands water baptism to be saved.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28: 19)......... He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

And before you tell me I'm linking two different speeches,  they are both from post-resurrection speeches by Jesus to the apostles; both part of instructions to go into the whole world and preach the gospel.


Jesus also said "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)

As Peter wrote "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)

As Paul wrote "..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)

I can give you many verses that show that baptism is with water, and many verses that show that baptism saves us.

where does it say water in Matt / Mk verses?

1 Peter 3 - MEV
20 who in times past were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body,

but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

it  says that the water that saved in Noah's day is not what literally saves us now. it isn't a literal washing like in the past. BUT a response to God because of a good conscience that we receive through the resurrection of Christ (when we are saved).  no water now  ... it's baptism into Christ thru the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart).  don't need water.  the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 06:15:05

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 03:40:25

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 00:25:49

Quote from: winsome on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 12:36:10

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Jan 30, 2016 - 11:53:15
We mare not reading the same Bible,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
. Tit 3:5

Washing of regeneration comes when one first believes tha Jesus is Lord and repents in his sins in his heart heart.   Take the thief on the cross When was he regenerated?  You have Jesus locked up in a box of laws.

Washing of regeneration - water of rebirth - same thing.

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but because of His own pity and mercy, by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth (regeneration) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Amplified Bible)

did you just leave the RCC beliefs in the past day?

the 'new birth'/ born again comes from the Holy Spirit.  we are baptized into Christ.  no water used (the liquid).  did you know that water is a sign of the Holy Spirit?  What did Jesus say to the woman at the well (where she went to get - water)?
go thru God's word and connect up 'water' with 'Holy Spirit' / 'outpouring of......

John 4

13 Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again,

14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water that I shall give him will become in him a well of water springing up into eternal life."

after the death and resurrection, the baptism of John was no more -  no more water

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)

Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

read the full story of the eunuch - he believed,  then he was baptized in water.  and that was prior to the death and resurrection, right?

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 06:15:05
are you referring to 2 that I posted about water as the Holy Spirit or did you search out water and the Holy Spirit and only find 2?

Offhand I can only remember 2 occasions when Jesus used water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit - John 4:4-28 & John 7:37-39. If you know of others then please remind me.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 06:15:05Titus 3
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit,  6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  7 so that, being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

What do you think a bath contains? The word in Greek is loutrou - Strong 3067
G3067
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


And note it is "through the bath (or washing) of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit"

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 06:15:05

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 03:40:25

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 00:25:49

after the death and resurrection, the baptism of John was no more -  no more water

Untrue

yes, it is true. you don't know it because the RCC hasn't told you (they aren't Bible believing and teaching) ... and you don't study His word on your own.

Try leaving off the snotty comments. They don't add to your arguments.

The Bible shows in many places that baptism is with water.

Jesus baptised in the Jordan with water, as did the apostles

Later
Peter baptised with water
Philip baptised with water
Paul was baptised with water.

 

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 04:45:42
 

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 21:22:50
 
  post the verses w/bk/chp/vs were He commands water baptism to be saved.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28: 19)......... He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)
 
And before you tell me I'm linking two different speeches,  they are both from post-resurrection speeches by Jesus to the apostles; both part of instructions to go into the whole world and preach the gospel.

 
Jesus also said "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)
 
As Peter wrote "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)
 
As Paul wrote "..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
I can give you many verses that show that baptism is with water, and many verses that show that baptism saves us.

where does it say water in Matt / Mk verses?

Where does it say "Holy Spirit"?

Baptism in water is what they knew and understood.
John baptised with water
Jesus baptised in the Jordan with water
The apostles baptised with water in the Jordan.
That's all they had been taught.

And that is what they continued to do:
Can anyone withhold the water for baptising these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have?  He ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48).

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14

1 Peter 3 - MEV
20 who in times past were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body,

but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

it  says that the water that saved in Noah's day is not what literally saves us now. it isn't a literal washing like in the past. BUT a response to God because of a good conscience that we receive through the resurrection of Christ (when we are saved).  no water now  ... it's baptism into Christ thru the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart).  don't need water.  the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

1Peter 3:21 - RSV
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Or if you prefer
1Peter 3:21 -KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Figuratively because baptism saves us now. That is what scripture says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (or "baptism doth also now save us" – KJV)

What saves us now? – baptism!.
Baptism with water, just as in Noah's time eight souls were saved by water.

Water baptism doesn't follow. It's in (water) baptism that the Holy Spirit regenerates us; when our sins are forgiven.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14
the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

Where does scripture ever say that water baptism is symbolic?


And symbolic of what?

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:47:52

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 04:45:42
 

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 21:22:50
 
  post the verses w/bk/chp/vs were He commands water baptism to be saved.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28: 19)......... He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)
 
And before you tell me I'm linking two different speeches,  they are both from post-resurrection speeches by Jesus to the apostles; both part of instructions to go into the whole world and preach the gospel.

 
Jesus also said "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)
 
As Peter wrote "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)
 
As Paul wrote "..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
I can give you many verses that show that baptism is with water, and many verses that show that baptism saves us.

where does it say water in Matt / Mk verses?

Where does it say "Holy Spirit"?

Baptism in water is what they knew and understood.
John baptised with water
Jesus baptised in the Jordan with water
The apostles baptised with water in the Jordan.
That's all they had been taught.

And that is what they continued to do:
Can anyone withhold the water for baptising these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have?  He ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48).

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14

1 Peter 3 - MEV
20 who in times past were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body,

but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

it  says that the water that saved in Noah's day is not what literally saves us now. it isn't a literal washing like in the past. BUT a response to God because of a good conscience that we receive through the resurrection of Christ (when we are saved).  no water now  ... it's baptism into Christ thru the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart).  don't need water.  the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

1Peter 3:21 - RSV
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Or if you prefer
1Peter 3:21 -KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Figuratively because baptism saves us now. That is what scripture says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (or "baptism doth also now save us" – KJV)

What saves us now? – baptism!.
Baptism with water, just as in Noah's time eight souls were saved by water.

Water baptism doesn't follow. It's in (water) baptism that the Holy Spirit regenerates us; when our sins are forgiven.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14
the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

Where does scripture ever say that water baptism is symbolic?


And symbolic of what?

from your post above -

And that is what they continued to do:

Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing

these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have?

He ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.(Acts 10:47-48).

no one who isn't saved receives the Holy Spirit...  these people already received the Holy Spirit...

then they were 'ordered' to be baptized.

they were already saved     before    they were baptized!


And symbolic of what?

symbolic of His death, burial and resurrection!

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 13:11:24
skeeter,

If you believe that works are not necessary to get to heaven then how do you explain Matthew 25:31-46?

James says "faith apart from works is dead" (Jas 2:26). Do you think you can get to heaven with dead faith?

what's the problem with these?

matthew 25 -   the goats/unsaved to the left; the sheep/saved to the right.    the sheep (saved) will have their works tested.  even if their works don't survive, they are still saved.   1 Cor 3      The goats/unsaved don't get their works tested.  they don't matter. Belief in Christ (being born again) is what was required.

James -  if someone says they are saved but doesn't have works,  then they lie.  Works follow being saved.  James was teaching to Jews.  He   explained things to them in a way that those who knew the law could understand. 

works are not needed   to be saved.  They come  after  being saved.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 13:46:22

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:47:52

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 04:45:42
 

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 17, 2016 - 21:22:50
 
  post the verses w/bk/chp/vs were He commands water baptism to be saved.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28: 19)......... He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)
 
And before you tell me I'm linking two different speeches,  they are both from post-resurrection speeches by Jesus to the apostles; both part of instructions to go into the whole world and preach the gospel.

 
Jesus also said "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)
 
As Peter wrote "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (1Pet 3:21)
 
As Paul wrote "..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
I can give you many verses that show that baptism is with water, and many verses that show that baptism saves us.

where does it say water in Matt / Mk verses?

Where does it say "Holy Spirit"?

Baptism in water is what they knew and understood.
John baptised with water
Jesus baptised in the Jordan with water
The apostles baptised with water in the Jordan.
That's all they had been taught.

And that is what they continued to do:
Can anyone withhold the water for baptising these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have?  He ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48).

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14

1 Peter 3 - MEV
20 who in times past were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body,

but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

it  says that the water that saved in Noah's day is not what literally saves us now. it isn't a literal washing like in the past. BUT a response to God because of a good conscience that we receive through the resurrection of Christ (when we are saved).  no water now  ... it's baptism into Christ thru the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart).  don't need water.  the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

1Peter 3:21 - RSV
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Or if you prefer
1Peter 3:21 -KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Figuratively because baptism saves us now. That is what scripture says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (or "baptism doth also now save us" – KJV)

What saves us now? – baptism!.
Baptism with water, just as in Noah's time eight souls were saved by water.

Water baptism doesn't follow. It's in (water) baptism that the Holy Spirit regenerates us; when our sins are forgiven.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14
the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

Where does scripture ever say that water baptism is symbolic?


And symbolic of what?

from your post above -

And that is what they continued to do:

Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing

these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have?

He ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.(Acts 10:47-48).

no one who isn't saved receives the Holy Spirit...  these people already received the Holy Spirit...

then they were 'ordered' to be baptized.

they were already saved     before    they were baptized!


And symbolic of what?

symbolic of His death, burial and resurrection!

And thus we see that you don't have one without the other and the requirement for water baptism still exists- symbolic or not.

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 15:01:48

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 13:46:22

Quote from: winsome on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:47:52

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14
where does it say water in Matt / Mk verses?

Where does it say "Holy Spirit"?

Baptism in water is what they knew and understood.
John baptised with water
Jesus baptised in the Jordan with water
The apostles baptised with water in the Jordan.
That's all they had been taught.

And that is what they continued to do:
Can anyone withhold the water for baptising these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have?  He ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:47-48).

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14

1 Peter 3 - MEV
20 who in times past were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body,

but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

it  says that the water that saved in Noah's day is not what literally saves us now. it isn't a literal washing like in the past. BUT a response to God because of a good conscience that we receive through the resurrection of Christ (when we are saved).  no water now  ... it's baptism into Christ thru the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart).  don't need water.  the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

1Peter 3:21 - RSV
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Or if you prefer
1Peter 3:21 -KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Figuratively because baptism saves us now. That is what scripture says "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you" (or "baptism doth also now save us" – KJV)

What saves us now? – baptism!.
Baptism with water, just as in Noah's time eight souls were saved by water.

Water baptism doesn't follow. It's in (water) baptism that the Holy Spirit regenerates us; when our sins are forgiven.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 18, 2016 - 07:00:14
the water baptism that follows is symbolic.

Where does scripture ever say that water baptism is symbolic?


And symbolic of what?

from your post above -

And that is what they continued to do:

Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing

these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have?

He ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.(Acts 10:47-48).

no one who isn't saved receives the Holy Spirit...  these people already received the Holy Spirit...

then they were 'ordered' to be baptized.

they were already saved     before    they were baptized!


And symbolic of what?

symbolic of His death, burial and resurrection!

And thus we see that you don't have one without the other and the requirement for water baptism still exists- symbolic or not.

yes, they are 2 separate things.  being born again is without water (liquid) and is how one is saved.  water baptism doesn't save anyone and isn't required to be saved.

skeeter,

You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings about baptism. However I'm going away for the weekend and I'm already behind schedule so I will have to leave it until I get back and I respond then (unless Ladonia hasm already covered them).

winsome

Quote from: winsome on Fri Feb 19, 2016 - 05:06:21
skeeter,

You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings about baptism. However I'm going away for the weekend and I'm already behind schedule so I will have to leave it until I get back and I respond then (unless Ladonia hasm already covered them).

winsome

no, I don't have a misunderstanding about baptism,  you do.  I once believed as you do (when I was catholic).  but after being saved (and having understanding) and studying the subject, my understanding of it changed.  that was based on what Jesus and the apostles taught instead of what I was taught in catholic schools.
catholics get their 'understanding' from the RCC, CCC, ecfs etc.

Quote from: skeeter on Fri Feb 19, 2016 - 16:13:05

Quote from: winsome on Fri Feb 19, 2016 - 05:06:21
skeeter,

You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings about baptism. However I'm going away for the weekend and I'm already behind schedule so I will have to leave it until I get back and I respond then (unless Ladonia hasm already covered them).

winsome

no, I don't have a misunderstanding about baptism,  you do.  I once believed as you do (when I was catholic).  but after being saved (and having understanding) and studying the subject, my understanding of it changed.  that was based on what Jesus and the apostles taught instead of what I was taught in catholic schools.
catholics get their 'understanding' from the RCC, CCC, ecfs etc.

I get my understanding from 2,000 years of teaching by the Church that Paul described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15), from the teaching of great theologians, from the teaching of the of the early fathers who received their teaching from the apostles just as Paul instructed (2Tim 2:2), from teaching of the the leaders of the Church assembled in great councils - all teaching the same thing for 2,000 years

Where do you get your understanding from?
From the personal and fallible interpretations of skeeter?
Or do you consider yourself infallible?

Why should I prefer your personal and fallible interpretation over the consistent teaching of the Church for 2,000 years? 

You say your understanding is based on what Jesus taught.
Well Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Skeeter says he who believes is saved without baptism
Should I believe Jesus or skeeter?

You say your understanding is based on what the apostles taught.
Well Peter says baptism saves you (1Pet 3:21)
Skeeter says baptism doesn't save you.
Should I believe Peter or skeeter?

Irenaeus of Lyons was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. He was thus the second generation after John. He writes:
And when we come to refute them [heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a  renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith. (Against Heresies, Book One, Ch. 21 [AD 180])

Before him Justin Martyr wrote:
"Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn.......The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles" (The First Apology 61:14-17 [inter A.D. 148-155]).

Before that we read:
Hermas
"They had need [the Shepherd said] to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive, for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God and entered into the kingdom of God. For,' he said, 'before a man bears the name of the Son of God, he is dead. But when he receives the seal he puts mortality aside and again receives life. The seal, therefore, is the water. They go down into the water dead [in sin], and come out of it alive" ((The Shepherd ). 9:16:2-4 [A.D. 140]).

And in the 1^st century:
"Now let us see if the Lord has been at any pains to give us a foreshadowing of the waters of baptism and of the cross. Regarding the former, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Jer. 22:13; Is. 16:1-2, 33:16-18; Ps. 1:3-6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, `Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.' Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls" (The Epistle of Barnabus 11:1-10 [circa A.D. 70]).

Should I take my understanding from such as these (among many others) or from the personal and fallible interpretation of  skeeter- circa 2016 AD?