Christian Forums

Quote from: Amo on Tue Jan 05, 2016 - 22:01:21
Not sure of the point your making. Perhaps you could expound somewhat. The Roman Church believes in civil legislation which backs up there teachings. They do not believe in separation of church and state. They support Sunday legislation.

My point is that this pope recognizes and supports a Saturday Sabbath, at least for the Jews and Messianics.  In fact, he was in a meeting with South American Messianic leaders and Marty Waldman from the Toward Jerusalem Council II when he was called to the concave.  He did not leave without asking their prayers over him for wisdom.

From Catholic theologian Fr Peter Hocken:

QuoteThis year I was with this same Messianic Jewish leader in Buenos Aires.  We went to meet Cardinal Bergoglio, who had asked for this meeting to know more about Messianic Jews.  We had a very moving meeting with the Cardinal for about 80 minutes.  My Messianic brother shared about his coming to faith in Jesus, and about the vision he carried for the bringing together of Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ as is presented in Ephesians 2 and 3, in Romans 11 and 15, etc.  At the end Cardinal Bergoglio just said, "This is from God", a new thing of the Holy Spirit.  There was no discussion.  He invited us to pray for him, he was leaving for the conclave the next week, and the Messianic brother prayed all that was on his heart for the new pope, that he would be fully open to this full vision of reconciliation.  On our way to the lift, the Cardinal kept saying to my friend: "Pray for me, pray for me, pray for me."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwi01c__3N7MAhXSDj4KHWymBSwQFgg7MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peterhocken.org%2Fmc%2Fhome.nsf%2F0%2F4A9808588BB783E7C1257DBA007B236D%2F%24FILE%2FPart0.docx&usg=AFQjCNF0x7B_US7FEUZR80U7odv2Me2WDQ&cad=rja

How does any of that, change the fact that the papacy has, does, and will continue to pursue and support Sunday laws? It is no surprise to me that the papacy supports the false teaching of a still separate people of Israel, and would allow for them a separate Sabbath and other laws which are not applicable to the supposed Gentile church. As though there ever was such a thing. There is not an Israel of God, and a separate church of Christ in this new covenant era. This is deception. The middle wall of partition has been broken down in Christ. Those who will rebuild that wall are none His. Rome seeks to accept and unify all of humanity and all of the religions of the same under her guiding influence and leadership. While exalting the pagan day of the sun above the Sabbath established by Jesus Christ Himself at creation. The Jews may have no problem with this, it won't be the first time they have supported such, but God's true church must sound a warning against this abomination. The final abomination practiced by the Jews in Ezekiel chapter eight before the Lord sent forth His destroying servants was turning their backs on the temple and worshipping the sun. The final abomination of spiritual Israel will be exalting the day of the sun above the Sabbath of God by human laws, after which God will release the seven last plagues upon rebellious humanity(Rev 16).

Revelation 18

1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Amo - lose the replacement theology. 

There is nothing to lose Dave. We've been through this before. I'm not the one replacing something, you are. You wish to make two again, out of that which Jesus came to make one.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Why do you wish to replace the above truth, with a separated Israel and Gentile church, as though there were two separate peoples of God through Jesus Christ in this new covenant era?

237. On Sunday, our participation in the Eucharist has special importance. Sunday, like the Jewish Sabbath, is meant to be a day which heals our relationships with God, with ourselves, with others and with the world. Sunday is the day of the Resurrection, the "first day" of the new creation, whose first fruits are the Lord's risen humanity, the pledge of the final transfiguration of all created reality. It also proclaims "man's eternal rest in God".[168] In this way, Christian spirituality incorporates the value of relaxation and festivity. We tend to demean contemplative rest as something unproductive and unnecessary, but this is to do away with the very thing which is most important about work: its meaning. We are called to include in our work a dimension of receptivity and gratuity, which is quite different from mere inactivity. Rather, it is another way of working, which forms part of our very essence. It protects human action from becoming empty activism; it also prevents that unfettered greed and sense of isolation which make us seek personal gain to the detriment of all else. The law of weekly rest forbade work on the seventh day, "so that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your maidservant, and the stranger, may be refreshed" (Ex 23:12). Rest opens our eyes to the larger picture and gives us renewed sensitivity to the rights of others. And so the day of rest, centred on the Eucharist, sheds it light on the whole week, and motivates us to greater concern for nature and the poor. (ENCYCLICAL LETTER
LAUDATO SI'
OF THE HOLY FATHER
FRANCIS
ON CARE FOR OUR COMMON HOME)

Sounds so very nice. Of course, the seventh day Sabbath is not Jewish, being instituted 2000 years before there ever was a Jew for all of humanity (Gen 2:1-3). A blessing was pronounced upon all who would keep it even when the Jews themselves were the chosen of God (Isa 56:1-8). It will also be kept by all the saved in the new heaven and new earth (Isa 66:22 & 23). The problem of the above quote of course then, is that the seventh day Sabbath was never meant to be replaced by another day. The Holy scriptures never declare any such thing.

The Sunday rest was and is declared and established by the will of man alone, for the purpose of placing man himself in the place or even above God. Its inculcation is of purely human design, not only apart from God, but in direct contradiction to the will of God. It is a direct manifestation of the man of sin, and all sinners who will place themselves and their own works above those of God. Its observance by force on a global scale will be a fit representation by all who submit to the same, of their defiance and rebellion against God's authority, in favor of the leadership and guidance of fallen humanity itself controlled and manipulated by the evil one himself. Entering into God's rest, includes submitting to His rightful authority. The choice to be made in the end will be simple as pie. Either submit to the authority of God's word, or submit to the usurped authority of fallen humanity under the direct influence of the one who first refused God's benevolent authority.

http://law.justia.com/constitution/us/amendment-01/07-sunday-closing-laws.html

The following quote is from the above internet site, where it may be viewed in its entirety. It reveals how "Christians", will get their day of rest established by law with the aid of secularists. The Church of Rome will welcome this alliance with operands of course, since her own social teachings require her day of worship be supported by civil legislation where ever possible. Many other "Christians" will be duped into supporting this as well in the future no doubt.

QuoteThe Court acknowledged that historically the laws had a religious motivation and were designed to effectuate concepts of Christian theology. However, "n light of the evolution of our Sunday Closing Laws through the centuries, and of their more or less recent emphasis upon secular considerations, it is not difficult to discern that as presently written and administered, most of them, at least, are of a secular rather than of a religious character, and that presently they bear no relationship to establishment of religion...."193 "[T]he fact that this [prescribed day of rest] is Sunday, a day of particular significance for the dominant Christian sects, does not bar the State from achieving its secular goals. To say that the States cannot prescribe Sunday as a day of rest for these purposes solely because centuries ago such laws had their genesis in religion would give a constitutional interpretation of hostility to the public welfare rather than one of mere separation of church and State."194 The choice of Sunday as the day of rest, while originally religious, now reflected simple legislative inertia or recognition that Sunday was a traditional day for the choice.195 Valid secular reasons existed for not simply requiring one day of rest and leaving to each individual to choose the day, reasons of ease of enforcement and of assuring a common day in the community for rest and leisure.196 More recently, a state statute mandating that employers honor the Sabbath day of the employee's choice was held invalid as having the primary effect of promoting religion by weighing the employee's Sabbath choice over all other interests.

The following are other sites of interest concerning the same issue.

http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Audio.details/ID/3545/Secular-Day-Rest-Law.htm

http://www.catholicgentleman.net/2014/12/thou-shalt-take-easy-7-reasons-embrace-sunday-rest/

http://uni-europa.org/2016/09/05/half-million-signatures-support-polish-draft-law-limitation-commerce-sundays/

More than half a million signatures in support of Polish draft law on limitation of commerce on Sundays
Monday 5 September 2016

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-04/tongan-bakeries-banned-from-opening-on-sundays/7568104

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tv/news/hindi/Second-Sunday-will-be-rest-day-for-TV-industry/articleshow/51311157.cms

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lavie.fr%2Freligion%2Fprotestantisme%2Fen-suisse-les-eglises-defendent-le-repos-dominical-23-02-2016-70849_18.php&edit-text=&act=url

http://www.thebostonpilot.com/article.asp?ID=177677

https://www.total-croatia-news.com/business/17053-catholic-church-wants-to-ban-working-on-sunday

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vecernji.hr%2Fhrvatska%2Fhbk-ponovno-pokrece-inicijativu-za-zabranu-rada-nedjeljom-1152977&edit-text=&act=url

 Meanwhile, Seventh-day Adventists get Sabbath laws passed while ignoring those who worship their Saviour on Sunday. 

http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story4896-brazil-adventist-students-celebrate-national-exam-day-change

Quote from: current occupant on Mon Mar 20, 2017 - 18:39:20
Meanwhile, Seventh-day Adventists get Sabbath laws passed while ignoring those who worship their Saviour on Sunday. 

http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story4896-brazil-adventist-students-celebrate-national-exam-day-change

Moving high school exam days to Sunday instead of Saturday due to popular consensus hardly qualifies as Sabbath legislation. Of course Sabbath keepers would be happy about such a change. If SDA's ever push for Sabbath closing laws, I'll be the first one to condemn such and fight against it. Here is another article about the change.

http://www.jta.org/2017/03/13/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/brazils-national-high-school-exam-moved-from-shabbat-after-jewish-lobbying

Maybe the following has something to do with the public support for moving the exam day.

http://www.sdadefend.com/WolvesinFleeces/Brazil%20Explosion.htm

Quote from: Amo on Tue Mar 21, 2017 - 19:26:03

Quote from: current occupant on Mon Mar 20, 2017 - 18:39:20
Meanwhile, Seventh-day Adventists get Sabbath laws passed while ignoring those who worship their Saviour on Sunday. 

http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story4896-brazil-adventist-students-celebrate-national-exam-day-change

Moving high school exam days to Sunday instead of Saturday due to popular consensus hardly qualifies as Sabbath legislation. Of course Sabbath keepers would be happy about such a change. If SDA's ever push for Sabbath closing laws, I'll be the first one to condemn such and fight against it. Here is another article about the change.

http://www.jta.org/2017/03/13/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/brazils-national-high-school-exam-moved-from-shabbat-after-jewish-lobbying

Maybe the following has something to do with the public support for moving the exam day.

http://www.sdadefend.com/WolvesinFleeces/Brazil%20Explosion.htm

This was a "Sabbath closing law". 

They decided to close the exams on the sda "Sabbath". 

SDA's did push for this Sabbath closing law.

Where is your condemnation of the change that continues to and increases the impact those who wish to worship on sunday by now putting the exam schedule on TWO SUNDAYS?

How many SDA's are there in Brazil?   

  SDA's are known for mobilizing writing and polling campaigns to influence the political will in government.   

only ~60% of those 600K were in in favor of the change - obviously mostly SDA's     

QuoteThis was a "Sabbath closing law".   

They decided to close the exams on the sda "Sabbath". 

SDA's did push for this Sabbath closing law.

Where is your condemnation of the change that continues to and increases the impact those who wish to worship on sunday by now putting the exam schedule on TWO SUNDAYS?

How many SDA's are there in Brazil?   

   SDA's are known for mobilizing writing and polling campaigns to influence the political will in government.   

only ~60% of those 600K were in in favor of the change - obviously mostly SDA's     

Whatever floats your boat, or fuels your fire. Make of it what you wish, it is no civil Sabbath closing or rest law. Are you now saying that Sunday is the new covenant rest day and Sabbath? If so, please do show such from scripture. If not, then what is the big deal of taking a test on Sunday. Go to church in the morning, and take the test in the afternoon.

I don't know how many SDA's there are in Brazil. If the government polled 600,000 citizens and 60% of them were SDA's, then either the government purposely tried to poll SDA's, or there are a majority of SDA's in Brazil.  If it is the former, then that is wrong. If it is the latter, then why would you think the majority of a people should have to take exams on a day they consider the Sabbath, to please a minority who do not? To the contrary, exceptions should be made for either or regardless of the day observed by either or.

As far as your statement,

QuoteSDA's are known for mobilizing writing and polling campaigns to influence the political will in government

, please do supply evidence of the same. I will immediately attack all such as anti-Christ. Such would simply be one more sign that the SDA church is falling away from the truth.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Mar 25, 2017 - 13:06:55

QuoteThis was a "Sabbath closing law".   

They decided to close the exams on the sda "Sabbath". 

SDA's did push for this Sabbath closing law.

Where is your condemnation of the change that continues to and increases the impact those who wish to worship on sunday by now putting the exam schedule on TWO SUNDAYS?

How many SDA's are there in Brazil?   

   SDA's are known for mobilizing writing and polling campaigns to influence the political will in government.   

only ~60% of those 600K were in in favor of the change - obviously mostly SDA's     

Whatever floats your boat, or fuels your fire. Make of it what you wish, it is no civil Sabbath closing or rest law. Are you now saying that Sunday is the new covenant rest day and Sabbath? If so, please do show such from scripture. If not, then what is the big deal of taking a test on Sunday. Go to church in the morning, and take the test in the afternoon.

I don't know how many SDA's there are in Brazil. If the government polled 600,000 citizens and 60% of them were SDA's, then either the government purposely tried to poll SDA's, or there are a majority of SDA's in Brazil.  If it is the former, then that is wrong. If it is the latter, then why would you think the majority of a people should have to take exams on a day they consider the Sabbath, to please a minority who do not? To the contrary, exceptions should be made for either or regardless of the day observed by either or.

As far as your statement,

QuoteSDA's are known for mobilizing writing and polling campaigns to influence the political will in government

, please do supply evidence of the same. I will immediately attack all such as anti-Christ. Such would simply be one more sign that the SDA church is falling away from the truth.

It is a "civil sabbath closing law" simply because it is mandated by government to close the testing of students on the sda saturday/sabbath.

For someone claiming to not be making a big deal out of this sabbath closing law - you sure have blown it into an issue of sabbath vs sunday ...

Personal experience in multiple sda churches has shown that sda's organize writing and polling vendettas against or for what ever issues their leaders promote from the pulpit.  I have seen it multiple times -

Your statement that all 60% of the 600000 being sda's is not one that I ever mentioned.  To arrive at that statement, you conflated what I actually said with what you wanted to have happen..

You are too late to be the first to attack the sda church as a cult/anti-Christ but go right ahead and have at it......

QuoteIt is a "civil sabbath closing law" simply because it is mandated by government to close the testing of students on the sda saturday/sabbath.

For someone claiming to not be making a big deal out of this sabbath closing law - you sure have blown it into an issue of sabbath vs sunday ...

Personal experience in multiple sda churches has shown that sda's organize writing and polling vendettas against or for what ever issues their leaders promote from the pulpit.  I have seen it multiple times -

Your statement that all 60% of the 600000 being sda's is not one that I ever mentioned.  To arrive at that statement, you conflated what I actually said with what you wanted to have happen..

You are too late to be the first to attack the sda church as a cult/anti-Christ but go right ahead and have at it......

According to your own understanding then, when they used to have the tests on Saturday instead of Sunday, that was a Sunday closing law right? Why was that OK, and if it wasn't a Sunday closing law, then neither is this a Sabbath closing law. Which is it?

Your the one who brought this issue to this thread, not me.

Please do provide evidence for your following claim -

QuotePersonal experience in multiple sda churches has shown that sda's organize writing and polling vendettas against or for what ever issues their leaders promote from the pulpit.  I have seen it multiple times

- where did you see it multiple times? In what churches, and what were you doing there?

The poll information is what it is. If the government polled 600,000 thousand people as they say they did, and it was SDA's who were responsible for the large numbers supporting the decision, then the government must have polled more SDA's than anyone else. Or are you claiming the article is a lie, and it was not a government poll that brought about the changes?

I am not attacking the SDA church as a cult or anti-christ, I am pointing out that fewer and fewer of them are doing the work they are supposed to be doing. There you go bearing false witness again. 

AMO, if you actually read about the situation as it existed previous to the saturday closing law you would find that the exams that are now on two consecutive Sundays were held on the saturday and sunday of one weekend.

There was no sunday closing law in the previous exam arrangement


All you have proven is your own aversion to reading what would negate your erroneous position.

Quote from: current occupant2 on Thu Mar 30, 2017 - 00:21:28
AMO, if you actually read about the situation as it existed previous to the saturday closing law you would find that the exams that are now on two consecutive Sundays were held on the saturday and sunday of one weekend.

There was no sunday closing law in the previous exam arrangement


All you have proven is your own aversion to reading what would negate your erroneous position.

Well, thanks so much for educating me then. So, your problem then I guess, is that SDA's did something about having to take exams on their Sabbath, and Sunday keepers didn't. Is that it?

My bad, I thought your whole argument was that SDA's were now making Sunday keepers take the test on Sunday instead of Saturday. What exactly is your point again? Your mad that SDA's succeeded in not having to take a test on their Sabbath. It can't be that they were make Sunday keepers take it on Sunday, if they were already doing so. ?

https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=30022

http://ktfnews.com/comece-calls-sunday-rest-laws-europe/

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paz-online.de%2FNachrichten%2FWirtschaft%2FUebersicht%2FDGB-Chef-Hoffmann-wirbt-fuer-Sonntagsruhe&edit-text=&act=url

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-Sabbath_Sunday_Catholic_Church

It is sad how the sda and their like will take the word of the Catholic Church on this topic but call them liars on almost every other aspect of christian doctrine.

Quote from: current occupant2 on Sat May 06, 2017 - 15:56:06


It is sad how the sda and their like will take the word of the Catholic Church on this topic but call them liars on almost every other aspect of christian doctrine.

It's pretty simple actually. There is a major difference between doctrine, and history. The establishment of the Roman Catholic Church state is well documented history. Sunday sacredness is a false doctrine associated with the denomination, which was intricately tied to it's establishment as the state sponsored and enforced religion. The Sunday law established by Constantine was directly influenced by his and apostate "Christian" leaders desire to bring all religions and therefore peoples to a settled state of uniformity, which could be more easily subjugated and controlled by them. Thus the amalgamation of apostate "Christianity" and paganism leading to the eventuality of the Roman Catholic Church state, or Holy Roman Empire if you will.

What is sad is the inability of those who choose to believe a lie, to see the truth. Resulting in the false accusations as that which yoiu leveled above.

Quote from: AmoThe Sunday law established by Constantine was directly influenced by his and apostate "Christian" leaders desire to bring all religions and therefore peoples to a settled state of uniformity, which could be more easily subjugated and controlled by them. Thus the amalgamation of apostate "Christianity" and paganism leading to the eventuality of the Roman Catholic Church state, or Holy Roman Empire if you will.

The ancient Roman pagans didn't worship weekly like the Jews and Christians. Theirs was a monthly calendar of observances. As such, Sunday was not considered or observed as a weekly festival or sacred day by the Romans. Therefore, your assertion that St. Constantine the Great's Sunday law was directed at uniting pagan and Christian peoples with a common day of worship is patently false.

Quote from: AmoWhat is sad is the inability of those who choose to believe a lie, to see the truth. Resulting in the false accusations as that which yoiu leveled above.

Oh, the irony of it all 

Quote from: DMA on Mon May 08, 2017 - 09:52:32

Quote from: AmoThe Sunday law established by Constantine was directly influenced by his and apostate "Christian" leaders desire to bring all religions and therefore peoples to a settled state of uniformity, which could be more easily subjugated and controlled by them. Thus the amalgamation of apostate "Christianity" and paganism leading to the eventuality of the Roman Catholic Church state, or Holy Roman Empire if you will.

The ancient Roman pagans didn't worship weekly like the Jews and Christians. Theirs was a monthly calendar of observances. As such, Sunday was not considered or observed as a weekly festival or sacred day by the Romans. Therefore, your assertion that St. Constantine the Great's Sunday law was directed at uniting pagan and Christian peoples with a common day of worship is patently false.

Quote from: AmoWhat is sad is the inability of those who choose to believe a lie, to see the truth. Resulting in the false accusations as that which yoiu leveled above.

Oh, the irony of it all 

Ignoring and denying all evidence to the contrary which has been and could continue to be supplied, doesn't change the facts but in your own mind. I suppose when I find the time I will supply yet another lengthy list of quotes from the many who have and still do disagree with your unbalanced perception or conclusion concerning all the evidence there is. So you can ignore and deny it again. Or perhaps this time you can go a step further and proclaim those who made the quotes to all be liars. Those who worshiped the sun may not have put quite as mush emphasis upon a weekly observance of a day of worship as the "Christians", but when pagans flooded the church by the decree of emperors it was the natural result of the amalgamation of the two.

Quote from: AmoIgnoring and denying all evidence to the contrary which has been and could continue to be supplied, doesn't change the facts but in your own mind. I suppose when I find the time I will supply yet another lengthy list of quotes from the many who have and still do disagree with your unbalanced perception or conclusion concerning all the evidence there is. So you can ignore and deny it again. Or perhaps this time you can go a step further and proclaim those who made the quotes to all be liars. Those who worshiped the sun may not have put quite as mush emphasis upon a weekly observance of a day of worship as the "Christians", but when pagans flooded the church by the decree of emperors it was the natural result of the amalgamation of the two.

Well, before you give your list of quotes, I thought I'd give a list of my own. But first, let's just consider one thing at the outset. If Sunday was indeed observed by the ancient Roman pagans weekly as a holy day, then why is it that the very first law to make Sunday a day of rest by the Roman state happened under St. Constantine the Great during the Christian era, some 1,074 years after Rome's founding? If Sunday was such an important holy day for the Romans, then why wait so long to make it an actual day of rest?

The following are some relevant quotes regarding the ancient Roman holy days and festivals:

Quote from: WikipediaFestivals in ancient Rome were an important part of Roman religious life during both the Republican and Imperial eras, and one of the primary features of the Roman calendar. Feriae ("holidays" in the sense of "holy days"; singular also feriae or dies ferialis) were either public (publicae) or private (privatae). State holidays were celebrated by the Roman people and received public funding. Games (ludi), such as the Ludi Apollinares, were not technically feriae, but the days on which they were celebrated were dies festi, holidays in the modern sense of days off work. Although feriae were paid for by the state, ludi were often funded by wealthy individuals. Feriae privatae were holidays celebrated in honor of private individuals or by families...Varro defined feriae as "days instituted for the sake of the gods." Religious rites were performed on the feriae, and public business was suspended. Even slaves were supposed to be given some form of rest. Cicero says specifically that people who were free should not engage in lawsuits and quarrels, and slaves should get a break from their labors. Agricultural writers recognized that some jobs on a farm might still need to be performed, and specified what these were. Some agricultural tasks not otherwise permitted could be carried out if an expiation were made in advance (piaculum), usually the sacrifice of a puppy. Within the city of Rome, the flamens and the priest known as the Rex sacrorum were not allowed even to see work done.

On a practical level, those who "inadvertently" worked could pay a fine or offer up a piaculum, usually a pig. Work considered vital either to the gods or preserving human life was excusable, according to some experts on religious law. Although Romans were required not to work, they were not required to take any religious action unless they were priests or had family rites (sacra gentilicia) to maintain.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_festivals

Notice that there is no mention of Sunday being a "feriae" of rest in the ancient Roman Empire. This is because the ancient Romans didn't observe a weekend like we do today. Here is another quote about the ancient Roman holy days with a fairly complete list of Roman religious festivals included. Notice there isn't a mention of a weekly Sunday observance:

Quote from: UNRV HistoryRepublican era State festivals

These were festivals where religious officials employed by the State conducted public rites. Citizens were required to suspend business on such dates, but they were not required to attend religious ceremonies (many did so, however, as sacrificial meat was often given in such festivals). Because the ancient Romans did not observe a "weekend" as moderns do, these festivals would have constituted the days of rest for the populace.

By the late Republic, many of the ancient festivals listed below had fallen into disuse, with the meaning of the festival and/or the deitiy to whom it was dedicated obscured.

January
1. Festival of Janus, the two faced god of beginnings. Exchanging of lamps to furnish light for the coming year

3-5. Compitalia. Observance day could be moved by order of the praetor urbanis. Celebrated the lares, or local guardian spirits, of the crossroads. Shrines were set up where crossroads met. Marked the end of the agricultural year.

5. Birthday of the shrine of Vica Pota, ancient goddess of victory.

9. Agonalia. Sacrifice of ram by rex sacrorum to uncertain god, possibly Janus.

11. Juturnalia. Festival of Juturna, river nymph and goddess of healing.

15. Carmentalia. Festival to honor Carementis, river nymph and goddess of prophecy.

24-26. Sementivae. Offerings to Tellus and Cerus (agricultural goddesses) to protect the spring sowing.

27. Festival of Castor and Pollux, Greek demigods who were patrons of cavalry, athletes and sailors

February
1. Festival of Juno Sospita

5-17. Fornacalia. Celebration of grain ovens.

13. Festival to honor Faunus the rustic god.

13-21. Parentalia. Private and public ceremonies for the spirits of the familial dead. The 21st was the Feralia, when food was carried to tombs of the dead.

15. Lupercalia. Purification and fertility festival. Romans not certain to which god holiday was dedicated. Citizens gathered before the cave where Romulus and Remus were suckled by the she-wolf. A goat and dog was sacrificed. Two noble youths were smeared with the blood and ran through the streets. They whipped passers-by with strips of goat skin, imparting fertility.

17. Quirinalia. Festival of the ancient god Quirinius, a sabine war god.

22. Carista. Renewal of family ties, offerings to familial lares.

23. Terminalia. Honoring the boundary god Terminus.

25. Regifugium. Celebrated in honor of expulsion of the last king and founding of the Republic.

27. Equirria. Horse racing in honor of Mars.

March
1. Festival of Mars

7. Festival of Vediovis, an underworld version of Jupiter.

9. Sacred shield of Mars carried by his priests, the salii.

14. Equirria. Another horse racing festival to Mars. Also the Mamuralia, which was a seperate festival in honor of the sacred shields of Mars.

15. Festival to Anna Perenna, goddess of the new year.

17. Liberalia, festival to Liber Pater, a god sometimes identified with the Greek Bacchus

19. Quinquatra. Five day festival in honor of Mars and Minerva. On 23 March the trumpets of Mars were purified.

31. Festival of Luna, goddess of the moon.

April
1. Veneralia,festival of Venus Verticordia

4-10. Megalesia. Games held in honor of Cybele, the Phyrgian mother earth goddess whose cult was brought to Rome during the 2nd Punic War.

5. Festival of Fortuna Publica, "luck of the people."

12-19. Ceriala. In honor of Ceres.

13. Festival to Jupiter of Victory and Jupiter of Liberty.

15. Fordicida. Pregnant cow sacrificed to Tellus to promote fertility.

21. Parilia. Purification of sheep for fertility.

23. Vinalia Priora. Festival of wine production in honor of Jupiter

25. Robigalia. Rust colored dog sacrificed to appease the god of grain rust.

28 April - 3 May. Floralia. Flower festival connected with Spring fertility.


May
1. Festival of Lares.

9. Lemuria. Festival to appease the spirits of the wandering household dead.

11. Sacrifice to Mania, a goddess of death.

14. Festival to Mars Invictus.

15. Festival to Jupiter and Mercury.

21. Agonalia. Sacrifice of ram by rex sacrorum to uncertain god, possibly Janus.

23. Festival to Vulcan.

25. Festival to Fortuna.

29. Ambarvalia. Sacrifices offered to agricultural deities to purify crops.

June
1. Festival of Juno and Mars

3. Festival of Bellona, the war goddess.

4, Festival of Hercules.

5. Festival of Dius Fidius, Roman god of oaths sometimes identified with Jupiter.

8. Festival of Mens, personification of mental activity.

9. Vestalia, festival of Vesta.

11. Matralia. Festival of Mater Matuta, goddess of growth and childbirth.

13. Festival of Jupiter Invictus.

19. Festival of Minerva.

20. Festival of Summanus, a god of thunderbolts associated with Jupiter.

24. Festival of Fors Fortuna, bringer of providence.

25. Turian games held every four years to underworld gods.

27. Festival to lares and Jupiter.

July
1. Festival of Juno.

5. Poplifugia. Flight of the People. Meaning now lost.

6-13. Games to honor Apollo

7. Festival of Pales. Juno worshipped on this day in honor of serving women.

17. Festivals of Honos (honor), Virtus (physical and moral excellence) and Victoria (victory)

19. Lucaria. Festival in a sacred grovde near the Tiber. Meaning lost.

20. Games held to honor victories of Caesar and goddess Victoria.

22. Festival of Concordia, goddess of concord.

23. Neptunalia. Festival for Neptune

25. Festival for Furrina, goddess of springs.

30. Festival to Fortuna

August
1. Festivals of Spes (Hope) and Victoria.

5. festivals of Salus, goddess of health

9. Festival of Sol, god of the sun.

12. Festival to Hercules and Venus

13. Festivals to Diana, Hercules, Castor and Pollux.

17. Portunalia. Festival to Portunus, god of doors and harbors. Involved a ritual connected with keys.

19. Vinalia Rustica. Another wine production festival

21. Festival to Consus , an agricultural god also associated with horses.

23. Festival to Vulcan

24. Festival to Luna

25. Festival to Ops, goddess of abundance and partner to Saturn.

27. Festival of Volturnus, an Etruscan river god.

28. Festival of Sol and Luna

September
1. Festival to Jupiter and Juno

5. Festival to Jupiter

5-19. Games for Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

13. Festival of Capitoline Triad (Jupiter, Juno and Minerva)

23. Festival to Apollo

26. Festival of Venus Genetrix, Venus as mother of Roman people

October
1. Festival to Fides (fidelity) and Juno

4. Fast day for Ceres

7. Festival of Jupiter and Juno

9. Festival to the public genius, Faunus and Venus.

10. Festival to Juno

11. Meditrinalia. Another wine festival to Jupiter

13. Fontinalia. In honor the god of springs

14. Festival of the Penates, domestic patron gods

15. Capitoline games in honor of Jupiter

19. Armilustrium. Festival of purification of arms in honor of Mars.

26 October -1 November. Sulla's Victory Games in honor of Victoria.

November
4-17. Plebian games in honor of Jupiter. The 13th was the great festival day and highpoint of the games

December
1. Festivals of Neptune and Pietas (Piety).

3. Festival of Bona Dea, the women's goddess. Celebrated only by women and Vestal Virgins in the house of a Consul or Praetor

5. Festival of Faunus held in countryside.

8. Festival of Tiberinius, personification of Tiber river.

11. Agonalia. Sacrifice of ram by rex sacrorum to uncertain god, possibly Janus.

12. Festival of Consus

13. Festival of Tellus.

15. 2nd festival to Consus.

17-23. Saturnalia. Merry making festival ot Saturn, the rustic god of seed sowing, later identified with the Greek Chronus. Sacrifice at the temple of Saturn followed by public feast and gift giving. Public gambling allowed. Holiday costumes and caps adorned. Candles lit. Slaves were temporarily absolved of duties. Master may have switched roles with slaves.

18. Festival of Epona, a Gallic horse goddess.

19. Festival to Ops

21. Festival to honor Diva Angeronae, goddess of secrecy.

22. Festival of the Lares

23. Larentalia, A funeral festival to an obscure goddess by name of Acca Larentia.

25. Midwinter solstice. Became prominent only in the third century when Aurelian consecrated his temple to Sol Invictus on this date.

Source: http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-festivals.php

As the above quote shows, the Roman's religious observances were monthly in nature and not weekly as SDA's assert. Therefore, they didn't observe a weekly day of rest on Sunday in honor of the sun. The following is from the so-called "Witchipedia", stating about itself, "the online encyclopedia of witchcraft, paganism and the occult". This is clearly not a Christian source, and yet it agrees with the previous source that the Romans didn't have weekends:

Quote from: WitchipediaThe ancient Romans celebrated many holy days; probably more than is practical for we modern Pagans to attempt to emulate. They didn't have weekends so these feast days were their only days off from work, though Sunday was declared a day of rest by Constantine in the 4th century BCE. Feast days allowed Romans to come together to share what their labor wrought and spend time with their neighbors, as well as take in state sponsored entertainment, and of course serve their Gods. Festivals often included a sacrifice and a communal meal which meant that the poorest people of the city had the opportunity to eat well once in awhile.

Source: http://www.witchipedia.com/main:roman-feast-days

And here are a few more quotes from various sources regarding the ancient Roman religious observances. Notice the glaring omission of any weekly Sunday observance:

Quote from: Encyclopædia BritannicaFeriae, ancient Roman festival days during which the gods were honoured and all business, especially lawsuits, was suspended. Feriae were of two types: feriae privatae and feriae publicae. The feriae privatae, usually celebrated only by families or individuals, commemorated an event of personal or ancestral importance. Included in this group were the feriae denicales, or 10 days of mourning observed by a family after the death of one of its members.

The holidays observed by all Romans, the feriae publicae, were of three different types: feriae stativae, held annually on a fixed date; feriae conceptivae, movable festivals celebrated annually on days appointed by priests or magistrates; and feriae imperativae, held at official command during extreme emergencies and after great victories.

All feriae publicae were generally observed by prayers, sacrifices, and visits to temples; in addition, the feriae stativae and feriae conceptivae usually included feasts. After the official recognition of Christianity, Christian holidays were substituted for the old system of feriae.

Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/feriae

Quote from: Crystal LinksRoman calendars show roughly forty annual religious festivals. Some lasted several days, others a single day or less: sacred days (dies fasti) outnumbered "non-sacred" days (dies nefasti). A comparison of surviving Roman religious calendars suggests that official festivals were organized according to broad seasonal groups that allowed for different local traditions. Some of the most ancient and popular festivals incorporated ludi ("games," such as chariot races and theatrical performances), with examples including those held at Palestrina in honour of Fortuna Primigenia during Compitalia, and the Ludi Romani in honor of Liber. Other festivals may have required only the presence and rites of their priests and acolytes, or particular groups, such as women at the Bona Dea rites.

Other public festivals were not required by the calendar, but occasioned by events. The triumph of a Roman general was celebrated as the fulfillment of religious vows, though these tended to be overshadowed by the political and social significance of the event. During the late Republic, the political elite competed to outdo each other in public display, and the ludi attendant on a triumph were expanded to include gladiator contests. Under the Principate, all such spectacular displays came under Imperial control: the most lavish were subsidized by emperors, and lesser events were provided by magistrates as a sacred duty and privilege of office. Additional festivals and games celebrated Imperial accessions and anniversaries. Others, such as the traditional Republican Secular Games to mark a new era (saeculum), became imperially funded to maintain traditional values and a common Roman identity. That the spectacles retained something of their sacral aura even in late antiquity is indicated by the admonitions of the Church Fathers that Christians should not take part.

The meaning and origin of many archaic festivals baffled even Rome's intellectual elite, but the more obscure they were, the greater the opportunity for reinvention and reinterpretation - a fact lost neither on Augustus in his program of religious reform, which often cloaked autocratic innovation, nor on his only rival as mythmaker of the era, Ovid.

In his Fasti, a long-form poem covering Roman holidays from January to June, Ovid presents a unique look at Roman antiquarian lore, popular customs, and religious practice that is by turns imaginative, entertaining, high-minded, and scurrilous; not a priestly account, despite the speaker's pose as a vates or inspired poet-prophet, but a work of description, imagination and poetic etymology that reflects the broad humor and burlesque spirit of such venerable festivals as the Saturnalia, Consualia, and feast of Anna Perenna on the Ides of March, where Ovid treats the assassination of the newly deified Julius Caesar as utterly incidental to the festivities among the Roman people.

But official calendars preserved from different times and places also show a flexibility in omitting or expanding events, indicating that there was no single static and authoritative calendar of required observances. In the later Empire under Christian rule, the new Christian festivals were incorporated into the existing framework of the Roman calendar, alongside at least some of the traditional festivals.

Source: http://www.crystalinks.com/romereligion.html

Quote from: www.roman-empire.netThere was not a month in the Roman calendar which did not have its religious festivals.
And the very earliest festivals of the Roman state were already celebrated with games.
The consualia (celebrating the festival of Consus and the famous 'rape of the Sabine women'), which was held on 21 August, also was the main event of the chariot racing year. It can hence hardly be a coincidence that the underground granary and shrine of Consus, where the opening ceremonies of the festival were held, was accessed from the very center isle of the Circus Maximus.
But apart from the consualia August, the sixth month of the old calendar, also had festivals in honour of the gods Hercules, Portunus, Vulcan, Volturnus and Diana.
Festivals could be somber, dignified occasions, as well as joyful events.
The parentilia in February was a period of nine days in which the families would worship their dead ancestors. During this time, no official business was conducted, all temples were closed and marriages were outlawed.
But also in February was the lupercalia, a festival of fertility, most likely connected with the god Faunus. Its ancient ritual went back to the more mythical times of Roman origin. Ceremonies began in the cave in which the legendary twins Romulus and Remus were believed to have been suckled by the wolf. In that cave a number of goats and a dog were sacrificed and their blood was daubed onto the faces of two young boys of patrician families. Dressed in goatskins and carrying strips of leather in their hands, the boys would then run a traditional course. Anyone along the way would be whipped with the leather strips. However, these lashings were said to increase fertility. Therefore women who sought to get pregnant would wait along the course, to be whipped by the boys as they passed.
The festival of Mars lasted from 1 to 19 March. Two separate teams of a dozen men would dress up in armour and helmet of ancient design and would then jump, leap and bound through the streets, beating their shields with their swords, shouting and chanting. The men were known as the salii, the 'jumpers'. Apart from their noisy parade through the streets, they would spend every evening feasting in a different house in the city.
The festival of Vesta took place in June and, lasting for a week, it was an altogether calmer affair. No official business took place and the temple of Vesta was opened to married women who could make sacrifices of food to the goddess. As a more bizarre part of this festival, all mill-donkeys were given a day of rest on 9 June, as well as being decorated with garlands and loaves of bread.
On 15 June the temple would be closed again, but for the vestal virgins and the Roman state would go about its normal affairs again.

Source: http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html

What the above quotes, all taken from various and different unrelated sources, show is that the ancient Romans didn't consider Sunday to be a holy day for weekly worship and rest. On the contrary, the ancient Roman's religious observances were undoubtedly monthly in character, not weekly as Seventh-day Adventists would have us believe. The fact is, St. Constantine's Sunday law was the first of its kind in Roman history. This effectively disproves the Adventist assertion that Sunday was a holy day for the Roman pagans, and that this was the reason why St. Constantine made his decree, to unite pagans and Christians together.

Here is a quote from Handbook to Life in Ancient Rome also confirming that the ancient Romans didn't have weekends, and that only the Jews observed a "rest day":

Quote from: Handbook to Life in Ancient RomeFeriae (or dies ferialis) were holidays or festivals for visiting temples and making sacrifices to gods. The same term was used for public festivals and for private occasion, such as celebrating a birthday. Festivals were days when the Romans renewed their relationships with particular gods, usually involving additional rituals to what was normally practiced. Failure either to celebrate a festival or to celebrate it absolutely correctly would cause the gods to cease being benevolent. There were, therefore, important public ceremonies conducted by state officials as well as private prayers and sacrifices. The public rite took place in the temple of the god being honored by the festival. Prayers, rituals and sacrifices were conducted by the priests outside the temple. Citizens might attend the ceremonies, but only as observers and not as participants.

There were many festivals during the year, but not all were public festivals recognized by the state and celebrated by state priests. On public holidays work and business (legal and political) were stopped to avoid polluting the sacred day. Some work was permitted (decided by the pontiff), but it is likely that much work went on regardless, and only the pious visited temples, while others took a holiday. Roman citizens were legally required to observe the rules about working, but they were not obligated to perform acts of worship. The large number of festivals obviously reduced the number of working days in the year, but only the Jews (who did not observe the festivals) had a regular "rest day" by observing the sabbath, others did not have a "weekend" and so the number of working days lost through observance of festivals was not great.

Source: https://tinyurl.com/lb2huqk

Quote from: DMA on Tue May 09, 2017 - 12:38:15

Quote from: AmoIgnoring and denying all evidence to the contrary which has been and could continue to be supplied, doesn't change the facts but in your own mind. I suppose when I find the time I will supply yet another lengthy list of quotes from the many who have and still do disagree with your unbalanced perception or conclusion concerning all the evidence there is. So you can ignore and deny it again. Or perhaps this time you can go a step further and proclaim those who made the quotes to all be liars. Those who worshiped the sun may not have put quite as mush emphasis upon a weekly observance of a day of worship as the "Christians", but when pagans flooded the church by the decree of emperors it was the natural result of the amalgamation of the two.

Well, before you give your list of quotes, I thought I'd give a list of my own. But first, let's just consider one thing at the outset. If Sunday was indeed observed by the ancient Roman pagans weekly as a holy day, then why is it that the very first law to make Sunday a day of rest by the Roman state happened under St. Constantine the Great during the Christian era, some 1,074 years after Rome's founding? If Sunday was such an important holy day for the Romans, then why wait so long to make it an actual day of rest?

The following are some relevant quotes regarding the ancient Roman holy days and festivals:

Quote from: WikipediaFestivals in ancient Rome were an important part of Roman religious life during both the Republican and Imperial eras, and one of the primary features of the Roman calendar. Feriae ("holidays" in the sense of "holy days"; singular also feriae or dies ferialis) were either public (publicae) or private (privatae). State holidays were celebrated by the Roman people and received public funding. Games (ludi), such as the Ludi Apollinares, were not technically feriae, but the days on which they were celebrated were dies festi, holidays in the modern sense of days off work. Although feriae were paid for by the state, ludi were often funded by wealthy individuals. Feriae privatae were holidays celebrated in honor of private individuals or by families...Varro defined feriae as "days instituted for the sake of the gods." Religious rites were performed on the feriae, and public business was suspended. Even slaves were supposed to be given some form of rest. Cicero says specifically that people who were free should not engage in lawsuits and quarrels, and slaves should get a break from their labors. Agricultural writers recognized that some jobs on a farm might still need to be performed, and specified what these were. Some agricultural tasks not otherwise permitted could be carried out if an expiation were made in advance (piaculum), usually the sacrifice of a puppy. Within the city of Rome, the flamens and the priest known as the Rex sacrorum were not allowed even to see work done.

On a practical level, those who "inadvertently" worked could pay a fine or offer up a piaculum, usually a pig. Work considered vital either to the gods or preserving human life was excusable, according to some experts on religious law. Although Romans were required not to work, they were not required to take any religious action unless they were priests or had family rites (sacra gentilicia) to maintain.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_festivals

Notice that there is no mention of Sunday being a "feriae" of rest in the ancient Roman Empire. This is because the ancient Romans didn't observe a weekend like we do today. Here is another quote about the ancient Roman holy days with a fairly complete list of Roman religious festivals included. Notice there isn't a mention of a weekly Sunday observance:

Quote from: UNRV HistoryRepublican era State festivals

These were festivals where religious officials employed by the State conducted public rites. Citizens were required to suspend business on such dates, but they were not required to attend religious ceremonies (many did so, however, as sacrificial meat was often given in such festivals). Because the ancient Romans did not observe a "weekend" as moderns do, these festivals would have constituted the days of rest for the populace.

By the late Republic, many of the ancient festivals listed below had fallen into disuse, with the meaning of the festival and/or the deitiy to whom it was dedicated obscured.

January
1. Festival of Janus, the two faced god of beginnings. Exchanging of lamps to furnish light for the coming year

3-5. Compitalia. Observance day could be moved by order of the praetor urbanis. Celebrated the lares, or local guardian spirits, of the crossroads. Shrines were set up where crossroads met. Marked the end of the agricultural year.

5. Birthday of the shrine of Vica Pota, ancient goddess of victory.

9. Agonalia. Sacrifice of ram by rex sacrorum to uncertain god, possibly Janus.

11. Juturnalia. Festival of Juturna, river nymph and goddess of healing.

15. Carmentalia. Festival to honor Carementis, river nymph and goddess of prophecy.

24-26. Sementivae. Offerings to Tellus and Cerus (agricultural goddesses) to protect the spring sowing.

27. Festival of Castor and Pollux, Greek demigods who were patrons of cavalry, athletes and sailors

February
1. Festival of Juno Sospita

5-17. Fornacalia. Celebration of grain ovens.

13. Festival to honor Faunus the rustic god.

13-21. Parentalia. Private and public ceremonies for the spirits of the familial dead. The 21st was the Feralia, when food was carried to tombs of the dead.

15. Lupercalia. Purification and fertility festival. Romans not certain to which god holiday was dedicated. Citizens gathered before the cave where Romulus and Remus were suckled by the she-wolf. A goat and dog was sacrificed. Two noble youths were smeared with the blood and ran through the streets. They whipped passers-by with strips of goat skin, imparting fertility.

17. Quirinalia. Festival of the ancient god Quirinius, a sabine war god.

22. Carista. Renewal of family ties, offerings to familial lares.

23. Terminalia. Honoring the boundary god Terminus.

25. Regifugium. Celebrated in honor of expulsion of the last king and founding of the Republic.

27. Equirria. Horse racing in honor of Mars.

March
1. Festival of Mars

7. Festival of Vediovis, an underworld version of Jupiter.

9. Sacred shield of Mars carried by his priests, the salii.

14. Equirria. Another horse racing festival to Mars. Also the Mamuralia, which was a seperate festival in honor of the sacred shields of Mars.

15. Festival to Anna Perenna, goddess of the new year.

17. Liberalia, festival to Liber Pater, a god sometimes identified with the Greek Bacchus

19. Quinquatra. Five day festival in honor of Mars and Minerva. On 23 March the trumpets of Mars were purified.

31. Festival of Luna, goddess of the moon.

April
1. Veneralia,festival of Venus Verticordia

4-10. Megalesia. Games held in honor of Cybele, the Phyrgian mother earth goddess whose cult was brought to Rome during the 2nd Punic War.

5. Festival of Fortuna Publica, "luck of the people."

12-19. Ceriala. In honor of Ceres.

13. Festival to Jupiter of Victory and Jupiter of Liberty.

15. Fordicida. Pregnant cow sacrificed to Tellus to promote fertility.

21. Parilia. Purification of sheep for fertility.

23. Vinalia Priora. Festival of wine production in honor of Jupiter

25. Robigalia. Rust colored dog sacrificed to appease the god of grain rust.

28 April - 3 May. Floralia. Flower festival connected with Spring fertility.


May
1. Festival of Lares.

9. Lemuria. Festival to appease the spirits of the wandering household dead.

11. Sacrifice to Mania, a goddess of death.

14. Festival to Mars Invictus.

15. Festival to Jupiter and Mercury.

21. Agonalia. Sacrifice of ram by rex sacrorum to uncertain god, possibly Janus.

23. Festival to Vulcan.

25. Festival to Fortuna.

29. Ambarvalia. Sacrifices offered to agricultural deities to purify crops.

June
1. Festival of Juno and Mars

3. Festival of Bellona, the war goddess.

4, Festival of Hercules.

5. Festival of Dius Fidius, Roman god of oaths sometimes identified with Jupiter.

8. Festival of Mens, personification of mental activity.

9. Vestalia, festival of Vesta.

11. Matralia. Festival of Mater Matuta, goddess of growth and childbirth.

13. Festival of Jupiter Invictus.

19. Festival of Minerva.

20. Festival of Summanus, a god of thunderbolts associated with Jupiter.

24. Festival of Fors Fortuna, bringer of providence.

25. Turian games held every four years to underworld gods.

27. Festival to lares and Jupiter.

July
1. Festival of Juno.

5. Poplifugia. Flight of the People. Meaning now lost.

6-13. Games to honor Apollo

7. Festival of Pales. Juno worshipped on this day in honor of serving women.

17. Festivals of Honos (honor), Virtus (physical and moral excellence) and Victoria (victory)

19. Lucaria. Festival in a sacred grovde near the Tiber. Meaning lost.

20. Games held to honor victories of Caesar and goddess Victoria.

22. Festival of Concordia, goddess of concord.

23. Neptunalia. Festival for Neptune

25. Festival for Furrina, goddess of springs.

30. Festival to Fortuna

August
1. Festivals of Spes (Hope) and Victoria.

5. festivals of Salus, goddess of health

9. Festival of Sol, god of the sun.

12. Festival to Hercules and Venus

13. Festivals to Diana, Hercules, Castor and Pollux.

17. Portunalia. Festival to Portunus, god of doors and harbors. Involved a ritual connected with keys.

19. Vinalia Rustica. Another wine production festival

21. Festival to Consus , an agricultural god also associated with horses.

23. Festival to Vulcan

24. Festival to Luna

25. Festival to Ops, goddess of abundance and partner to Saturn.

27. Festival of Volturnus, an Etruscan river god.

28. Festival of Sol and Luna

September
1. Festival to Jupiter and Juno

5. Festival to Jupiter

5-19. Games for Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

13. Festival of Capitoline Triad (Jupiter, Juno and Minerva)

23. Festival to Apollo

26. Festival of Venus Genetrix, Venus as mother of Roman people

October
1. Festival to Fides (fidelity) and Juno

4. Fast day for Ceres

7. Festival of Jupiter and Juno

9. Festival to the public genius, Faunus and Venus.

10. Festival to Juno

11. Meditrinalia. Another wine festival to Jupiter

13. Fontinalia. In honor the god of springs

14. Festival of the Penates, domestic patron gods

15. Capitoline games in honor of Jupiter

19. Armilustrium. Festival of purification of arms in honor of Mars.

26 October -1 November. Sulla's Victory Games in honor of Victoria.

November
4-17. Plebian games in honor of Jupiter. The 13th was the great festival day and highpoint of the games

December
1. Festivals of Neptune and Pietas (Piety).

3. Festival of Bona Dea, the women's goddess. Celebrated only by women and Vestal Virgins in the house of a Consul or Praetor

5. Festival of Faunus held in countryside.

8. Festival of Tiberinius, personification of Tiber river.

11. Agonalia. Sacrifice of ram by rex sacrorum to uncertain god, possibly Janus.

12. Festival of Consus

13. Festival of Tellus.

15. 2nd festival to Consus.

17-23. Saturnalia. Merry making festival ot Saturn, the rustic god of seed sowing, later identified with the Greek Chronus. Sacrifice at the temple of Saturn followed by public feast and gift giving. Public gambling allowed. Holiday costumes and caps adorned. Candles lit. Slaves were temporarily absolved of duties. Master may have switched roles with slaves.

18. Festival of Epona, a Gallic horse goddess.

19. Festival to Ops

21. Festival to honor Diva Angeronae, goddess of secrecy.

22. Festival of the Lares

23. Larentalia, A funeral festival to an obscure goddess by name of Acca Larentia.

25. Midwinter solstice. Became prominent only in the third century when Aurelian consecrated his temple to Sol Invictus on this date.

Source: http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-festivals.php

As the above quote shows, the Roman's religious observances were monthly in nature and not weekly as SDA's assert. Therefore, they didn't observe a weekly day of rest on Sunday in honor of the sun. The following is from the so-called "Witchipedia", stating about itself, "the online encyclopedia of witchcraft, paganism and the occult". This is clearly not a Christian source, and yet it agrees with the previous source that the Romans didn't have weekends:

Quote from: WitchipediaThe ancient Romans celebrated many holy days; probably more than is practical for we modern Pagans to attempt to emulate. They didn't have weekends so these feast days were their only days off from work, though Sunday was declared a day of rest by Constantine in the 4th century BCE. Feast days allowed Romans to come together to share what their labor wrought and spend time with their neighbors, as well as take in state sponsored entertainment, and of course serve their Gods. Festivals often included a sacrifice and a communal meal which meant that the poorest people of the city had the opportunity to eat well once in awhile.

Source: http://www.witchipedia.com/main:roman-feast-days

And here are a few more quotes from various sources regarding the ancient Roman religious observances. Notice the glaring omission of any weekly Sunday observance:

Quote from: Encyclopædia BritannicaFeriae, ancient Roman festival days during which the gods were honoured and all business, especially lawsuits, was suspended. Feriae were of two types: feriae privatae and feriae publicae. The feriae privatae, usually celebrated only by families or individuals, commemorated an event of personal or ancestral importance. Included in this group were the feriae denicales, or 10 days of mourning observed by a family after the death of one of its members.

The holidays observed by all Romans, the feriae publicae, were of three different types: feriae stativae, held annually on a fixed date; feriae conceptivae, movable festivals celebrated annually on days appointed by priests or magistrates; and feriae imperativae, held at official command during extreme emergencies and after great victories.

All feriae publicae were generally observed by prayers, sacrifices, and visits to temples; in addition, the feriae stativae and feriae conceptivae usually included feasts. After the official recognition of Christianity, Christian holidays were substituted for the old system of feriae.

Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/feriae

Quote from: Crystal LinksRoman calendars show roughly forty annual religious festivals. Some lasted several days, others a single day or less: sacred days (dies fasti) outnumbered "non-sacred" days (dies nefasti). A comparison of surviving Roman religious calendars suggests that official festivals were organized according to broad seasonal groups that allowed for different local traditions. Some of the most ancient and popular festivals incorporated ludi ("games," such as chariot races and theatrical performances), with examples including those held at Palestrina in honour of Fortuna Primigenia during Compitalia, and the Ludi Romani in honor of Liber. Other festivals may have required only the presence and rites of their priests and acolytes, or particular groups, such as women at the Bona Dea rites.

Other public festivals were not required by the calendar, but occasioned by events. The triumph of a Roman general was celebrated as the fulfillment of religious vows, though these tended to be overshadowed by the political and social significance of the event. During the late Republic, the political elite competed to outdo each other in public display, and the ludi attendant on a triumph were expanded to include gladiator contests. Under the Principate, all such spectacular displays came under Imperial control: the most lavish were subsidized by emperors, and lesser events were provided by magistrates as a sacred duty and privilege of office. Additional festivals and games celebrated Imperial accessions and anniversaries. Others, such as the traditional Republican Secular Games to mark a new era (saeculum), became imperially funded to maintain traditional values and a common Roman identity. That the spectacles retained something of their sacral aura even in late antiquity is indicated by the admonitions of the Church Fathers that Christians should not take part.

The meaning and origin of many archaic festivals baffled even Rome's intellectual elite, but the more obscure they were, the greater the opportunity for reinvention and reinterpretation - a fact lost neither on Augustus in his program of religious reform, which often cloaked autocratic innovation, nor on his only rival as mythmaker of the era, Ovid.

In his Fasti, a long-form poem covering Roman holidays from January to June, Ovid presents a unique look at Roman antiquarian lore, popular customs, and religious practice that is by turns imaginative, entertaining, high-minded, and scurrilous; not a priestly account, despite the speaker's pose as a vates or inspired poet-prophet, but a work of description, imagination and poetic etymology that reflects the broad humor and burlesque spirit of such venerable festivals as the Saturnalia, Consualia, and feast of Anna Perenna on the Ides of March, where Ovid treats the assassination of the newly deified Julius Caesar as utterly incidental to the festivities among the Roman people.

But official calendars preserved from different times and places also show a flexibility in omitting or expanding events, indicating that there was no single static and authoritative calendar of required observances. In the later Empire under Christian rule, the new Christian festivals were incorporated into the existing framework of the Roman calendar, alongside at least some of the traditional festivals.

Source: http://www.crystalinks.com/romereligion.html

Quote from: www.roman-empire.netThere was not a month in the Roman calendar which did not have its religious festivals.
And the very earliest festivals of the Roman state were already celebrated with games.
The consualia (celebrating the festival of Consus and the famous 'rape of the Sabine women'), which was held on 21 August, also was the main event of the chariot racing year. It can hence hardly be a coincidence that the underground granary and shrine of Consus, where the opening ceremonies of the festival were held, was accessed from the very center isle of the Circus Maximus.
But apart from the consualia August, the sixth month of the old calendar, also had festivals in honour of the gods Hercules, Portunus, Vulcan, Volturnus and Diana.
Festivals could be somber, dignified occasions, as well as joyful events.
The parentilia in February was a period of nine days in which the families would worship their dead ancestors. During this time, no official business was conducted, all temples were closed and marriages were outlawed.
But also in February was the lupercalia, a festival of fertility, most likely connected with the god Faunus. Its ancient ritual went back to the more mythical times of Roman origin. Ceremonies began in the cave in which the legendary twins Romulus and Remus were believed to have been suckled by the wolf. In that cave a number of goats and a dog were sacrificed and their blood was daubed onto the faces of two young boys of patrician families. Dressed in goatskins and carrying strips of leather in their hands, the boys would then run a traditional course. Anyone along the way would be whipped with the leather strips. However, these lashings were said to increase fertility. Therefore women who sought to get pregnant would wait along the course, to be whipped by the boys as they passed.
The festival of Mars lasted from 1 to 19 March. Two separate teams of a dozen men would dress up in armour and helmet of ancient design and would then jump, leap and bound through the streets, beating their shields with their swords, shouting and chanting. The men were known as the salii, the 'jumpers'. Apart from their noisy parade through the streets, they would spend every evening feasting in a different house in the city.
The festival of Vesta took place in June and, lasting for a week, it was an altogether calmer affair. No official business took place and the temple of Vesta was opened to married women who could make sacrifices of food to the goddess. As a more bizarre part of this festival, all mill-donkeys were given a day of rest on 9 June, as well as being decorated with garlands and loaves of bread.
On 15 June the temple would be closed again, but for the vestal virgins and the Roman state would go about its normal affairs again.

Source: http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html

What the above quotes, all taken from various and different unrelated sources, show is that the ancient Romans didn't consider Sunday to be a holy day for weekly worship and rest. On the contrary, the ancient Roman's religious observances were undoubtedly monthly in character, not weekly as Seventh-day Adventists would have us believe. The fact is, St. Constantine's Sunday law was the first of its kind in Roman history. This effectively disproves the Adventist assertion that Sunday was a holy day for the Roman pagans, and that this was the reason why St. Constantine made his decree, to unite pagans and Christians together.

I already know they didn't do this like Christians or Jews for that matter, as already stated in my previous post. The weekly observance is what Jewish influenced apostate "Christianity" brought to the table, in the amalgamation of apostate "Christianity" with paganism. Predominantly sun worshiping paganism, brought the day of the sun in to replace God's sabbath. These are the exact sins Israel was guilty of during the old covenant when it incorporated and amalgamated the religious practices and customs of the heathen around them while sliding into apostasy. The final abomination which brought God's judgement upon Israel, the destruction of the temple, and the dispersion of the nation was the act of the elders turning their backs to the temple to face the sun and worship.

Eze 8:15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.
9:1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. 5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

God sent the Babylonians of the north to fulfill the above judgements upon Israel. The final abomination, the abomination of desolation was the establishment of sun worship within Israel even in the temple.

QuoteNorth African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought."

--J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.

When Christianity went down the same road of apostasy as Israel in amalgamating sun worship with the true worship of God through Christ, God sent the barbarians of the north who caused destruction and desolation everywhere they went. By the time Sunday sacredness had almost completely replaced God's seventh day Sabbath, the western Roman empire collapsed under the weight of continual invasions by the barbarians of the north. They spread destruction and desolation everywhere they went and sacked Rome itself several times. God's judgement comes from the north. When the abomination of desolation is set up again by law in place of God's Sabbath by the last beast of biblical prophesy, God Himself will bring judgement upon this earth.

When the canon of Scripture was closed, and the last of the apostles was dead, the first century was gone; and within twenty years of that time the perversion of the truth of Christ had become wide-spread. In the history of this century and of this subject the record is, —
"It is certain that to religious worship, both public and private, many rites were added, without necessity, and to the offense of sober and good men."  ( Mosheim - "Ecclesiastical History," Murdock's translation, century 2, part 2, chap. iv, par. 1. )

And the reason of this is stated to be that —
"The Christians were pronounced atheists, because they were destitute of temples, altars, victims, priests, and all that pomp in which the vulgar suppose the essence of religion to consist. For unenlightened persons are prone to estimate religion by what meets
their eyes. To silence this accusation, the Christian doctors thought it necessary to introduce some external rites, which would strike the senses of the people, so that they could maintain themselves really to possess all those things of which Christians were charged with being destitute, though under different forms." ( Mosheim - Id., par. 3. )

This was at once to accommodate the Christian worship and its forms to that of the heathen, and was almost at one step to heathenize Christianity. No heathen element or form can be connected with Christianity or its worship, and Christianity remain pure.

Of all the ceremonies of the heathen, the mysteries were the most sacred and most universally practised. Some mysteries were in honor of Bacchus, some of Cybele, but the greatest of all, those considered the most sacred of all and the most widely practised, were the Eleusinian, so called because celebrated at Eleusis in Greece. But whatever was the mystery that was celebrated, there was always in it, as an essential part of it, the elements of abomination that characterized sun-worship everywhere, because the mysteries were simply forms of the wide-spread and multiform worship of the sun.

Among the first of the perversions of the Christian worship was to give to its forms the title and air of the mysteries. For says the record: —
"Among the Greeks and the people of the East, nothing was held more sacred than what were called the mysteries. This circumstance led the Christians, in order to impart dignity to their religion, to say that they also had similar mysteries, or certain holy rites concealed from the vulgar; and they not only applied the terms used in the pagan mysteries to Christian institutions, particularly baptism and the Lord's Supper, but they gradually introduced also the rites which were designated by these terms."  ( Mosheim - Id., par. 5. )


It was to accommodate the Christian worship to the minds of a people who practised these things that the bishops gave to the Christian ordinances the name of mysteries. The Lord's Supper was made the greater mystery, baptism the lesser and the initiatory rite to the celebration of the former. After the heathen manner also a white garment was used as the initiatory robe, and the candidate, having been baptized, and thus initiated into the lesser mysteries, was admitted into what was called in the church the order of catechumens, in which order they remained a certain length of time, as in the heathen celebration, before they were admitted to the celebration of the Lord's Supper, the greater mystery.

"This practice originated in the Eastern provinces, and then after the time of Hadrian (who first introduced the pagan mysteries among the Latins) it spread among the Christians of the West." The reign of Hadrian was from 117-138. Therefore, before the second century was half gone, before the last of the apostles had been dead forty years, this apostasy, this working of the mystery of iniquity, had so largely spread over both the East and the West, that it is literally true that "a large part, therefore, of the Christian observances and institutions, even in this century, had the aspect of the pagan mysteries."  ( Mosheim - "Ecclesiastical History," century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 5. )   ( The Great Empires of Prophecy, A. T. Jones )

"A law of the year 321 ordered tribunals, shops, and workshops to be closed on the day of the sun, and he [Constantine] sent to the legions, to be recited upon that day, a form of prayer which could have been employed by a worshiper of Mithra, of Serapis, or of Apollo, quite as well as by a Christian believer. This was the official sanction of the old custom of addressing a prayer to the rising sun. IN DETERMINING WHAT DAYS SHOULD BE REGARDED AS HOLY, and in the composition of a prayer for national use, CONSTANTINE EXERCISED ONE OF THE RIGHTS BELONGING TO HIM AS PONTIFEX MAXIMUS; and it caused no surprise that he should do this."  ( Duruy - "History of Rome," chap. 102, part 1:par. 4 from end. )


The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Dr. A.Chr. Bang says regarding this Law :
"This Sunday law constituted no real favoratism to Christianity..... It is evident from all his statuatory provisions that the Emperor during the time 313-323 with full consciousness has sought the realisation of his religeous aim: the amalgamation of heathenism and Christianity." Kirken og Romerstaten (The Church and the Roman State) p.256. Christiania, 1879

J. Westbury-Jones, an English writer, speaks thus: " How such a law would further the designs of Constantine it is not difficult to discover.  It would confer a special honor upon the festival of the Christian church, and it would grant a slight boon to the pagans themselves.  In fact there is nothing in this edict which might not have been written by a pagan.  The law does honor to the pagan deity whom Constantine had adopted as his special patron god, Apollo or the sun [Constantine retained the motto "Soli Invicto" to the end of his life].  The very name of the day lent itself to this ambiguity.  The term Sunday (dies Solis) was in use among Christians as well as heathen."  (Roman and Christian Imperialism, p. 210)

The retention of the old pagan name of "dies Solis" or "Sunday", for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the "venerable day of the sun".  His decree regulating it's observance has been justly called a new era in the history of the Lord's day.  It was his mode of harmonizing the discordant religions of the empire under one common institution. (A. P. Stanely, History of the Eastern Church, p. 184)

In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis , familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians."  (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, sec. 75, par. 5.-Schaff.)   ( The Great Empires of Prophecy by Alonzo Jones page 391 )

Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and  the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism -  the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.

Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." ( Milman - History of Christianity, book 3, chap. 1, par. 1 )


"Aurelian ... created a new cult of the 'Invincible Son.' Worshipped in a splendid temple, served by pontiffs who were raised to the level of the ancient pontiffs of Rome .... On establishing this new cult, Aurelian in reality proclaimed the dethronement of the old Roman idolatry and the accession of Semitic Sun-Worship." Franz Cumont, "Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans," p. 55, 56.

"The two opposed creeds [Christianity and Mithraism] moved in the same intellectual and moral sphere, and one could actually pass from one to the other without shock or interruption." Cumont, ibid. p. 210.


"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.


"As a solar festival, Sunday was the sacred day of Mithra; and it is interesting to notice that since Mithra was addressed as Dominus, 'Lord,' Sunday must have been the 'Lord's Day' long before the Christian times." A. Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," p. 145.

"Cults of the sun, as we know from many sources, had attained great vogue during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Sun-worshipers indeed formed one of the big groups in that religious world in which Christianity was fighting for a place. Many of them became converts to Christianity . . . Worshipers in St. Peter's turned away from the altar and faced the door so that they could adore the rising sun."--Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, p. 192. [Dr. Laing(1869-1945) was a Canadian-born university professor and later dean at the University of Chicago].

It was the Roman Imperial plan on several occasions, to unite all religions of the Empire into one religion--sun-worship: "The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration."--Henry Hart Milman, The History of Christianity, bk. 2, chap. 8 (Vol. II, p. 175). [Dr. Milman (1791-1868) was an important historian of England and dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London].

"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray toward the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies, likewise move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day, as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and banqueting." — Tertullian "Ad Nationes," book 1, chap. 13.

While this effort was being made on the side of philosophy to unite all religions, there was at the same time a like effort on the side of politics. It was the ambition of Elagabalus (A.D. 218-222) to make the worship of the sun supersede all other worship in Rome. It is further related of him that a more ambitious scheme even than this was in the emperor's mind; which was nothing less than the blending of all religions into one, of which "the sun was to be the central object of adoration." — Milman "History of Christianity"  book 2, chap. 8, par. 22.  But the elements were not yet fully prepared for such a fusion. Also the shortness of the reign of Elagabalus prevented any decided advancement toward success.

"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.


"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.

"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god. . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.

"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.

"The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism . . . During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar [sun] worships, especially that of Mithra [Persian sun worship], in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by pagans of dies Solis for dies Saturni, as the first day of the planetary week. Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity."--Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220-221. [Webster (1875-?), was an author, historian, and professor at the University of Nebraska].

"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.

Quote from: AmoThe weekly observance is what Jewish influenced apostate "Christianity" brought to the table, in the amalgamation of apostate "Christianity" with paganism.

Let me get this straight:  You're saying that the weekly worship of Christians is due to an influence from the Jewish religion, which I'd agree with, and that this weekly worship that Christianity inherited from the Jewish faith led to an amalgamation between it and paganism? How does that even make sense?? The Roman pagans didn't observe a weekly worship on any day, including Sunday. So how in the world would the weekly worship of Christians possibly lead to a supposed amalgamation between them and those who didn't worship weekly? Why would the pagans even care? Amo, you're not making any sense here.

Quote from: AmoPredominantly sun worshiping paganism, brought the day of the sun in to replace God's sabbath.

The ancient Romans worshipped many gods, Amo, Sol, the sun god, being one of them. And while they may have worshipped Sol, they certainly didn't worship him weekly on Sunday. The quotes I provided show that clearly. No where does it say that the ancient Romans worshipped Sol on Sunday. And yet Christians have been meeting together on Sunday weekly since the start in celebration of the resurrection of Christ on that day (cf. St. Justin Martyr's First Apology, Chp 67). Your reasoning is nonsensical.

Quote from: Amo quoting from J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.North African half-heathen Christians

Half-heathen Christians? Really Amo? You're quoting from someone who refers to other Christians as "half-heathen"?? I guess birds of a feather and all that.

Quote from: Amo quoting from J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god,

Notice no quote or reference is given.

Quote from: Amo quoting from J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light."

Yeah, because scripture would never ever liken Christ to the sun, let alone with the epithet "the Sun of Righteousness" (Malachi 4:2), because that would be a nod to paganism, right Amo? Thankfully, we can be assured that no prophet of scripture would ever refer to the Lord in that way . I mean, what were these Church fathers thinking anyways? 

Quote from: AmoWhen Christianity went down the same road of apostasy as Israel in amalgamating sun worship with the true worship of God through Christ, God sent the barbarians of the north who caused destruction and desolation everywhere they went. By the time Sunday sacredness had almost completely replaced God's seventh day Sabbath, the western Roman empire collapsed under the weight of continual invasions by the barbarians of the north. They spread destruction and desolation everywhere they went and sacked Rome itself several times. God's judgement comes from the north. When the abomination of desolation is set up again by law in place of God's Sabbath by the last beast of biblical prophesy, God Himself will bring judgement upon this earth.

I see that you have many thoughts in your head Amo. Wrong thoughts for sure, but many nonetheless.

My quotes and replies in blue.

Quote

QuoteThe weekly observance is what Jewish influenced apostate "Christianity" brought to the table, in the amalgamation of apostate "Christianity" with paganism.

Let me get this straight:  You're saying that the weekly worship of Christians is due to an influence from the Jewish religion, which I'd agree with, and that this weekly worship that Christianity inherited from the Jewish faith led to an amalgamation between it and paganism? How does that even make sense?? The Roman pagans didn't observe a weekly worship on any day, including Sunday. So how in the world would the weekly worship of Christians possibly lead to a supposed amalgamation between them and those who didn't worship weekly? Why would the pagans even care? Amo, you're not making any sense here.

What I say of course, will not make sense to those ignorant of the history involved, or those simply ignoring that history because they do not like where the examination of such leads. You, I would guess belong to the latter group, since more than just a little of that history has already been shared with you right here.

Some pagan sun worshipers did honor Sunday such as those of Mithraism. There is no denying the history of interplay between sun worshiping pagans and Christianity during its early development. Christianity grew and spread among, in conflict with, and ever increasingly influenced by, predominantly sun worshiping pagans. The development of which reached a climactic point when their Emperor began supporting and eventually claimed to have become a Christian.

Constantine had a vision of a cross, went to battle and conquered his enemies under that sign, established Christianity as a legal religion of the empire, demanded that all properties lost during their persecutions be returned to them, that is to the Catholic church, then demanded that all Christians basically be Catholic, and also instituted a Sunday law applicable to pagans and Christians alike. Will you pretend these things went without notice by the pagans? Or that there were not developments along these very lines leading up to these climactic events?

Pagan's had no choice but to care. A new religion developed and rapidly spread among them. Its numbers increased rapidly. Then its power and influence increased also as more prominent members of society began joining its ranks. During which time also, pagan influences began entering the church through all of the same. This continued until pagan influenced "Christianity" grew to large and had to many powerful members including the emperor, to be held down any longer. It eventually took over, commanding all to become Catholic "Christians" and itself persecuting pagans or Christians that would not submit. These events would be pretty hard to ignore. Sunday sacredness and Sunday law both played intricate parts in the development of the Catholic state church which would plague humanity for many centuries to come. Choosing to ignore these historical facts cannot and will not change them.

QuoteThe ancient Romans worshipped many gods, Amo, Sol, the sun god, being one of them. And while they may have worshipped Sol, they certainly didn't worship him weekly on Sunday. The quotes I provided show that clearly. No where does it say that the ancient Romans worshipped Sol on Sunday. And yet Christians have been meeting together on Sunday weekly since the start in celebration of the resurrection of Christ on that day (cf. St. Justin Martyr's First Apology, Chp 67). Your reasoning is nonsensical.

It is nonsensical to those willing to deny or ignore history in order to maintain their beliefs. Let's see, Sun-day, or the day of the Sun. If sun worshipers were going to have a special day of worship, gee I don't know, what day do you think that would be? What day do you suppose compromising "Christians" could choose to worship, that would not offend their pagan sun worshiping contemporaries, gee I don't know, maybe Sun-day?

Christians did not begin Sunday observance from the start. Your reference to Justin Martyr's First Apology proves nothing regarding the same. The man was a perfect example of what I have already stated. He was a converted pagan and Greek philosopher. You look to him for proof of Sunday sacredness because you cannot look to the scriptures for the same. The scriptures speak nothing of it, because it developed later in time, and without any support from Christ or the apostles.

You may not be Catholic, but your contention is the same as theirs. You believe some who called themselves the church, had the authority to do away with the seventh day Sabbath, and institute another day of worship in its place. All of this with no scriptural authority. You ignore the fact that a great many Christians who also considered themselves the church, continued to keep the seventh day Sabbath, and simply argue that the early church did away with it, and established Sunday sacredness. Who do you say the Sabbath keepers were? Or do you just deny their existence altogether?

QuoteHalf-heathen Christians? Really Amo? You're quoting from someone who refers to other Christians as "half-heathen"?? I guess birds of a feather and all that.
Quote from: Amo quoting from J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.
were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god,

Notice no quote or reference is given.
Quote from: Amo quoting from J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light."

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Clement_of_Alexandria

Clement of Alexandria

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 – 215) (Titus Flavius Clemens) was an early Christian philosopher and one of the most distinguished teachers of the Church of Alexandria. He is known for his attempt to unite Greek philosophy with Christian teachings and drew a large number of educated pagans to the Church. His passion for philosophy, especially for the teachings of Plato, contributed to the "hellenization" of Christianity.

Clement of Alexandria was, and still is, a highly unorthodox and controversial figure in Church history.

Perhaps the following quotes had something to do with from J. Danielou accusations. All emphasis mine.

Clement of Alexandria
THE STROMATA,
OR MISCELLANIES
BOOK 7
CHAPTER 7
WHAT SORT OF PRAYER THE GNOSTIC EMPLOYS, AND HOW IT IS HEARD BY GOD
And since the dawn is an image of the day of birth, and from that point the light which has shone forth at first from the darkness increases, there has also dawned on those involved in darkness a day of the knowledge of truth. In correspondence with the manner of the sun's rising, prayers are made looking towards the sunrise in the east. Whence also the most ancient temples looked towards the west, that people might be taught to turn to the east when facing the images. "Let my prayer be directed before Thee as incense, the uplifting of my hands as the evening sacrifice," say the Psalms.

EXHORTATION TO THE HEATHEN
CHAPTER 6- BY DIVINE INSPIRATION PHILOSOPHERS SOMETIMES HIT ON THE TRUTH

For the sun never could show me the true God; but that healthful Word, that is the Sun of the soul, by whom alone, when He arises in the depths of the soul, the eye of the soul itself is irradiated. Whence accordingly, Democritus, not without reason, says, "that a few of the men of intellect, raising their hands upwards to what we Greeks now call the air (ajh>r), called the whole expanse Zeus, or God: He, too, knows all things, gives and takes away, and He is King of all.

CHAPTER 8
THE TRUE DOCTRINE IS TO BE SOUGHT IN THE PROPHETS
It is now time, as we have dispatched in order the other points, to go to the prophetic Scriptures; for the oracles present us with the appliances necessary for the attainment of piety, and so establish the truth. The divine Scriptures and institutions of wisdom form the short road to salvation. Devoid of embellishment, of outward beauty of diction, of wordiness and seductiveness, they raise up humanity strangled by wickedness, teaching men to despise the casualties of life; and with one and the same voice remedying many evils, they at once dissuade us from pernicious deceit, and clearly exhort us to the attainment of the salvation set before us. Let the Sibyl prophetess, then, be the first to sing to us the song of salvation: —
"So He is all sure and unerring:
Come, follow no longer darkness and gloom;
See, the sun's sweet-glancing light shines gloriously.
Know, and lay up wisdom in your hearts:
There is one God, who sends rains, and winds, and earthquakes,
Thunderbolts, famines, plagues, and dismal sorrows,
And snows and ice. But why detail particulars?
He reigns over heaven, He rules earth, He truly is;" —
where, in remarkable accordance with inspiration she compares delusion to darkness, and the knowledge of God to the sun and light, and subjecting both to comparison, shows the choice we ought to make. For falsehood is not dissipated by the bare presentation of the truth, but by the practical improvement of the truth it is ejected and put to flight.


CHAP. IX.--"THAT THOSE GRIEVOUSLY SIN WHO DESPISE OR NEGLECT GOD'S GRACIOUS CALLING."
Wherefore the blessed apostle says: "I testify in the Lord, that ye walk no longer as the Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind; having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart: who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness and concupiscence." After the accusation of such a witness, and his invocation of God, what else remains for the unbelieving than judgment and condemnation? And the Lord, with ceaseless assiduity, exhorts, terrifies, urges, rouses, admonishes; He awakes from the sleep of darkness, and raises up those who have wandered in error. "Awake," He says, "thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light," --Christ, the Sun of the Resurrection, He "who was born before the morning star," and with His beams bestows life.

CHAPTER 10
ANSWER TO THE OBJECTION OF THE HEATHEN, THAT IT WAS NOT RIGHT TO ABANDON THE CUSTOMS OF THEIR FATHERS
His Son, and the Word was in God, not disbelieved in by all when He was first preached, nor altogether unknown when, assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh, He enacted the drama of human salvation: for He was a true champion and a fellow-champion with the creature. And being communicated most speedily to men, having dawned from His Father's counsel quicker than the sun, with the most perfect ease He made God shine on us. Whence He was and what He was, He showed by what He taught and exhibited, manifesting Himself as the Herald of the Covenant, the Reconciler, our Savior, the Word, the Fount of life, the Giver of peace, diffused over the whole face of the earth; by whom, so to speak, the universe has already become an ocean of blessings.

CHAP. XI.--HOW GREAT ARE THE BENEFITS CONFERRED ON MAN THROUGH THE ADVENT OF
For how can it be other than desirable, since it has filled with light the mind which had been buried in darkness, and given keenness to the "light-bringing eyes" of the soul? For just as, had the sun not been in existence, night would have brooded over the universe notwithstanding the other luminaries of heaven; so, had we nor known the Word, and been illuminated by Him; we should have been nowise different from fowls that are being fed, fattened in darkness, and nourished for death. Let us then admit the light, that we may admit God; let us admit the light, and become disciples to the Lord. This, too, He has been promised to the Father: "I will declare Thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the Church will I praise Thee."

CHAP. XI.--HOW GREAT ARE THE BENEFITS CONFERRED ON MAN THROUGH THE ADVENT OF
Hail, O light! For in us, buried in darkness, shut up in the shadow of death, light has shone forth from heaven, purer than the sun, sweeter than life here below. That light is eternal life; and whatever partakes of it lives. But night fears the light, and hiding itself in terror, gives place to the day of the Lord. Sleepless light is now over all, and the west has given credence to the east. For this was the end of the new creation. For "the Sun of Righteousness," who drives His chariot over all, pervades equally all humanity, like "His Father, who makes His sun to rise on all men," and distils on them the dew of the truth. He hath changed sunset into sunrise, and through the cross brought death to life; and having wrenched man from destruction, He hath raised him to the skies, transplanting mortality into immortality, and translating earth to heaven--He, the husbandman of God,

THE INSTRUCTOR
[PAEDAGOGUS]
BOOK 1
CHAPTER 9
THAT IT IS THE PREROGATIVE OF THE SAME POWER TO BE BENEFICENT AND TO PUNISH JUSTLY. ALSO THE MANNER OF THE INSTRUCTION OF THE LOGOS
So God is good on His own account, and just also on ours, and He is just because He is good. And His justice is shown to us by His own Word from there from above, whence the Father was. For before He became Creator He was God; He was good. And therefore He wished to be Creator and Father. And the nature of all that love was the source of righteousness — the cause, too, of His lighting up His sun, and sending down His own Son. And He first announced the good righteousness that is from heaven, when He said, "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; nor the Father, but the Son."

THE STROMATA,
OR MISCELLANIES
BOOK 5
CHAPTER 6
THE MYSTIC MEANING OF THE TABERNACLE AND ITS FURNITURE
Now the Lord, having come alone into the intellectual world, enters by His sufferings, introduced into the knowledge of the Ineffable, ascending above every name which is known by sound. The lamp, too, was placed to the south of the altar of incense; and by it were shown the motions of the seven planets, that perform their revolutions towards the south. For three branches rose on either side of the tamp, and lights on them; since also the sun, like the lamp, set in the midst of all the planets, dispenses with a kind of divine music the light to those above and to those below. The golden lamp conveys another enigma as a symbol of Christ, not in respect of form alone, but in his casting light, "at sundry times and divers manners," on those who believe on Him and hope, and who see by means of the ministry of the First-born. And they say that the seven eyes of the Lord "are the seven spirits resting on the rod that springs from the root of Jesse."

BOOK 6
CHAPTER 17
PHILOSOPHY CONVEYS ONLY AN IMPERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
For it is not that we may seem good that we believe in Christ, as it is not alone for the purpose of being seen, while in the sun, that we pass into the sun. But in the one case for the purpose of being warmed; and in the other, we are compelled to be Christians in order to be excellent and good. For the kingdom belongs pre-eminently to the violent, who, from investigation, and study, and discipline, reap this fruit, that they become kings.


BOOK 7
CHAPTER 3
THE GNOSTIC AIMS AT THE NEAREST LIKENESS POSSIBLE TO GOD AND HIS SON
For, just as the sun not only illumines heaven and the whole world, shining over land and sea, but also through windows and small chinks sends his beams into the innermost recesses of houses, so the Word diffused everywhere casts His eye-glance on the minutest circumstances of the actions of life.


FRAGMENTS OF
CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS
[TRANSLATED BY REV. WILLIAM WILSON, M.A.]
FRAGMENTS
3. — COMMENTS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN.
There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate. That He was always the Word, is signified by saying, "In the beginning was the Word." But by the expression, "we have seen with our eyes," he signifies the Lord's presence in the flesh, "and our hands have handled," he says, "of the Word of life." He means not only His flesh, but the virtues of the Son, like the sunbeam which penetrates to the lowest places, — this sunbeam coming in the flesh became palpable to the disciples. It is accordingly related in traditions, that John, touching the outward body itself, sent his hand deep down into it, and that the solidity of the flesh offered no obstacle, but gave way to the hand of the disciple.

QuoteYeah, because scripture would never ever liken Christ to the sun, let alone with the epithet "the Sun of Righteousness" (Malachi 4:2), because that would be a nod to paganism, right Amo? Thankfully, we can be assured that no prophet of scripture would ever refer to the Lord in that way  . I mean, what were these Church fathers thinking anyways?   

That term appears in scripture once. It is in reference to the fact that although God's appearance will bring destruction and fire upon the wicked, it will be as the healing rays of the sun upon the saved.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
A Jewish prophet speaking the above to the Jews, is a far cry from a Greek philosopher speaking such to pagans or newly converted pagans. One may be appropriate, the other certainly not.

Quote

QuoteWhen Christianity went down the same road of apostasy as Israel in amalgamating sun worship with the true worship of God through Christ, God sent the barbarians of the north who caused destruction and desolation everywhere they went. By the time Sunday sacredness had almost completely replaced God's seventh day Sabbath, the western Roman empire collapsed under the weight of continual invasions by the barbarians of the north. They spread destruction and desolation everywhere they went and sacked Rome itself several times. God's judgement comes from the north. When the abomination of desolation is set up again by law in place of God's Sabbath by the last beast of biblical prophesy, God Himself will bring judgement upon this earth.

I see that you have many thoughts in your head Amo. Wrong thoughts for sure, but many nonetheless.

God will be the judge of that, not you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. One of us no doubt will have some serious explaining to do, when we stand before the judge of all. 

Quote from: AmoWhat I say of course, will not make sense to those ignorant of the history involved, or those simply ignoring that history because they do not like where the examination of such leads. You, I would guess belong to the latter group, since more than just a little of that history has already been shared with you right here.

Same for you too Amo! After all, the quotes I provided show no indication whatsoever that Sunday was considered a holy day or a day of rest or even a holiday by the ancient Romans. And my quotes are coming from various sources which are all contemporary with links provided, unlike yours. Also, unlike yours, my sources aren't biased and prejudiced against the historic Church and its people.

Quote from: AmoSome pagan sun worshipers did honor Sunday such as those of Mithraism. There is no denying the history of interplay between sun worshiping pagans and Christianity during its early development. Christianity grew and spread among, in conflict with, and ever increasingly influenced by, predominantly sun worshiping pagans. The development of which reached a climactic point when their Emperor began supporting and eventually claimed to have become a Christian.

Mithrasim began in the Roman Empire around the same time Christianity was beginning to take off in the 1st century AD. It survived until the 4th century AD when Christianity finally overtook it as the dominate faith. Since its rise was in such close proximity with the rise of the Christian faith, it is believed that the adherents of Mithraism "borrowed" elements of their worship and faith from the Christians who were a very prominent sect in the empire. The following is from the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding the apparent borrowing of Mithraism from Christianity, and while you may not like the source of the quote I find its reasoning to be quite compelling in this regard:

Quote from: Catholic EncyclopediaRelation to Christianity

A similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at most the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations (e.g. Robertson, "Pagan Christs", 1903). Against this erroneous and unscientific procedure, which is not endorsed by the greatest living authority on Mithraism, the following considerations must be brought forward.

(1) Our knowledge regarding Mithraism is very imperfect; some 600 brief inscriptions, mostly dedicatory, some 300 often fragmentary, exiguous, almost identical monuments, a few casual references in the Fathers or Acts of the Martyrs, and a brief polemic against Mithraism which the Armenian Eznig about 450 probably copied from Theodore of Mopsuestia (d. 428) who lived when Mithraism was almost a thing of the past — these are our only sources, unless we include the Avesta in which Mithra is indeed mentioned, but which cannot be an authority for Roman Mithraism with which Christianity is compared. Our knowledge is mostly ingenious guess-work; of the real inner working of Mithraism and the sense in which it was understood by those who professed it at the advent of Christianity, we know nothing.

(2) Some apparent similarities exist; but in a number of details it is quite probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity. Tertullian about 200 could say: "hesterni sumus et omnia vestra implevimus" ("we are but of yesterday, yet your whole world is full of us"). It is not unnatural to suppose that a religion which filled the whole world, should have been copied at least in some details by another religion which was quite popular during the third century. Moreover the resemblances pointed out are superficial and external. Similarity in words and names is nothing; it is the sense that matters. During these centuries Christianity was coining its own technical terms, and naturally took names, terms, and expressions current in that day; and so did Mithraism. But under identical terms each system thought its own thoughts. Mithra is called a mediator; and so is Christ; but Mithra originally only in a cosmogonic or astronomical sense; Christ, being God and man, is by nature the Mediator between God and man. And so in similar instances. Mithraism had a Eucharist, but the idea of a sacred banquet is as old as the human race and existed at all ages and amongst all peoples. Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified. Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock. Christ was born in a cave; and Mithraists worshipped in a cave, but Mithra was born under a tree near a river. Much as been made of the presence of adoring shepherds; but their existence on sculptures has not been proven, and considering that man had not yet appeared, it is an anachronism to suppose their presence.

(3) Christ was an historical personage, recently born in a well-known town of Judea, and crucified under a Roman governor, whose name figured in the ordinary official lists. Mithra was an abstraction, a personification not even of the sun but of the diffused daylight; his incarnation, if such it may be called, was supposed to have happened before the creation of the human race, before all history. The small Mithraic congregations were like masonic lodges for a few and for men only and even those mostly of one class, the military; a religion that excludes the half of the human race bears no comparison to the religion of Christ. Mithraism was all comprehensive and tolerant of every other cult, the Pater Patrum himself was an adept in a number of other religions; Christianity was essential exclusive, condemning every other religion in the world, alone and unique in its majesty.

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

The early Christian apologists like Tertullian and St. Justin spoke about the appropriations of Mithraism from the Christian faith. Hear what they say about it:

Quote from: St. Justin the Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, Chapter 70And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah's words?

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm

Quote from: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 66And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Quote from: Tertullian, Prescription Against Heretics, Chapter 40The question will arise, By whom is to be interpreted the sense of the passages which make for heresies? By the devil, of course, to whom pertain those wiles which pervert the truth, and who, by the mystic rites of his idols, vies even with the essential portions of the sacraments of God. He, too, baptizes some— that is, his own believers and faithful followers; he promises the putting away of sins by a laver (of his own); and if my memory still serves me, Mithra there, (in the kingdom of Satan,) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection , and before a sword wreathes a crown. What also must we say to (Satan's) limiting his chief priest to a single marriage? He, too, has his virgins; he, too, has his proficients in continence. Suppose now we revolve in our minds the superstitions of Numa Pompilius, and consider his priestly offices and badges and privileges, his sacrificial services, too, and the instruments and vessels of the sacrifices themselves, and the curious rites of his expiations and vows: is it not clear to us that the devil imitated the well-known moroseness of the Jewish law? Since, therefore he has shown such emulation in his great aim of expressing, in the concerns of his idolatry, those very things of which consists the administration of Christ's sacraments, it follows, of course, that the same being, possessing still the same genius, both set his heart upon, and succeeded in, adapting to his profane and rival creed the very documents of divine things and of the Christian saints — his interpretation from their interpretations, his words from their words, his parables from their parables. For this reason, then, no one ought to doubt, either that spiritual wickednesses, from which also heresies come, have been introduced by the devil, or that there is any real difference between heresies and idolatry, seeing that they appertain both to the same author and the same work that idolatry does.

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0311.htm

The early Christians knew all to well about the various heretical and pagan teachings that were floating around during their time. They didn't shrink away from confronting them, but addressed them head on in their writings, often being martyred for their witness to the Truth. Mithraism was just another pagan religion which appeared to "borrow" some of its rites and rituals from the Christian faith. No doubt the weekly Christian worship on Sunday, something that wasn't practiced by the other pagan Romans, was also influential on the adherents of Mithraism as well. So, far from the early Christians getting their teachings and practices from Mithraism, it would appear that it was the other way around. After all, the counterfeit always follows the genuine.

Quote from: AmoConstantine had a vision of a cross, went to battle and conquered his enemies under that sign, established Christianity as a legal religion of the empire, demanded that all properties lost during their persecutions be returned to them, that is to the Catholic church, then demanded that all Christians basically be Catholic, and also instituted a Sunday law applicable to pagans and Christians alike. Will you pretend these things went without notice by the pagans? Or that there were not developments along these very lines leading up to these climactic events?

Pagan's had no choice but to care. A new religion developed and rapidly spread among them. Its numbers increased rapidly.

Amo, by St. Constantine's time Christianity had been around in the Roman empire for over 300 years! Do you consider the Methodist church, which was established in 1735 (282 years ago) to be a "new" denomination? Or how about the Baptist church, which was established in 1609 (408 years ago) to be a "new" denomination? Or how about your own Seventh-day Adventist church, established in 1863 (just 154 years ago), to be a "new" denomination? Of course you don't. And neither was Christianity "new" at the time of St. Constantine. For the pagans, Christianity was as normal and well known as any of the denominations I listed are known in the U.S. today. In other words, Christianity wasn't new to them.

And another thing, you never did answer my question from before:  If Sunday was considered such a holy and sacred day by the Roman pagans, notwithstanding the beliefs of the adherents of Mithraism, why do you suppose then that St. Constantine's Sunday law was the very first one enacted in the entire history of the Roman empire up to his time which was some 1,074 years from Rome's founding? I'd be interested to hear some twisted reasoning from you about how Sunday was always regarded as holy and sacred by the Romans but somehow was never venerated as such by them. Good luck with that one!

Quote from: AmoIt is nonsensical to those willing to deny or ignore history in order to maintain their beliefs. Let's see, Sun-day, or the day of the Sun. If sun worshipers were going to have a special day of worship, gee I don't know, what day do you think that would be? What day do you suppose compromising "Christians" could choose to worship, that would not offend their pagan sun worshiping contemporaries, gee I don't know, maybe Sun-day?

So, according to your reasoning, the early Christians chose to worship together on Sunday, not because of their love for Christ and His resurrection testified to by St. Justin the Martyr (because apparently that was a dastardly lie), but because the Christians wanted to get in the good graces of a start up sun-worshipping cult that met in caves underground?? Yeah, sure they did, Amo, sure they did. 

If the early Christians didn't want to offend their pagan contemporaries, as you suggest, then why did they speak out so strongly against the various heresies and paganism of their day, including Mithraism, denouncing them as from demons? I mean, if they weren't trying to offend them, then they certainly wouldn't have spoken out against them the way did, would they?

Quote from: AmoChristians did not begin Sunday observance from the start.

Correction: Christians have never "observed" Sunday. They "observe" the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. And what better day to observe Easter/Pascha than on the day He rose from the dead? That's why Christians gather together to worship on Sundays, because of the Lord's resurrection. After all, scripture says that He rose from the dead on the first day of the week (i.e. Sunday). You have to understand Amo, that the resurrection of Christ is the meaning and purpose of the Christian, without which there would be no Christianity. Therefore, Christ's resurrection on Sunday takes precedence over everything else. It is most holy, not the day, but the event that occurred on the day. And it is that event that is "observed" and celebrated every Sunday in the historic Church.

Quote from: AmoYour reference to Justin Martyr's First Apology proves nothing regarding the same. The man was a perfect example of what I have already stated. He was a converted pagan and Greek philosopher. You look to him for proof of Sunday sacredness because you cannot look to the scriptures for the same. The scriptures speak nothing of it, because it developed later in time, and without any support from Christ or the apostles.

You're right, he was a converted Greek philosopher, but he was no pagan since he didn't worship the deities of the Greeks and Romans. You'd know this if you bothered to actually read his writings. And I don't look to him for "proof" of Sunday sacredness. I simply employ him as an eyewitness to what Christians were, for a long time, believing and doing in his day. He was merely relating what he was taught when he came into the Church. After all, he wasn't inventing the practice of Baptism or the Eucharist or the prayers or the readings from the Prophets and Apostles that the Church did every time it worshipped was he? Of course not. And neither was he inventing for the first time the practice of Christians meeting together on Sunday for worship. He was simply stating what was a fact among Christians in his day so soon after the Apostles' time. That is all.

It seems to me that the Seventh-day Adventist ire over an eyewitness' testimony that doesn't agree with their imaginary theories is most unreasonable. St. Justin has no axe to grind in our discussion, Amo, and he certainly had no knowledge of a Seventh-day Adventist church whose doctrines he knew nothing about. When he related what the Christians practiced he was speaking to the ancient Roman government (see chapter 1 of his First Apology), not to Jews or Seventh-day Adventists that he was trying to convert. His goal in his writing was simply an attempt to persuade pagan Rome to stop killing Christians for merely being Christians. His testimony is what it is, and I take it for what it is, an honest assessment of Christians in his day. That's why his testimony is so valuable to us today, because it gives us a snap-shot  of the Church from antiquity.

Quote from: AmoYou may not be Catholic, but your contention is the same as theirs.

I never said that I wasn't Catholic Amo. Just that I wasn't Roman Catholic. 

Quote from: AmoYou believe some who called themselves the church, had the authority to do away with the seventh day Sabbath, and institute another day of worship in its place. All of this with no scriptural authority.

No one did away with the seventh-day sabbath Amo. Classical Christianity simply understands it differently from the Jews, Seventh-day Adventists, and you. And besides, didn't you tell me over on the other thread entitled "Worshipping God on Sunday" that it isn't wrong for Christians to worship corporately together on any day of the week including Sunday? Now you're saying there has to be scriptural authority showing that it's okay for Christians to worship corporately together on Sunday?? It seems to me that you're not too clear on what you believe Amo.

Quote from: AmoYou ignore the fact that a great many Christians who also considered themselves the church, continued to keep the seventh day Sabbath, and simply argue that the early church did away with it, and established Sunday sacredness. Who do you say the Sabbath keepers were? Or do you just deny their existence altogether?

A great many Christians continued to keep the seventh-day sabbath? Really Amo? Who were these "great many Christians" and what exactly do you mean that they kept the seventh-day sabbath?

As for your question regarding who the sabbath keepers were, the answer is everyone who becomes a Christian in baptism and turns from their evil ways. The following is addressed to you, Amo, and everyone else with a similar mindset to yours:

Quote from: St. Justin the Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho The Jew, Chapter 12-13This same law you have despised, and His new holy covenant you have slighted; and now you neither receive it, nor repent of your evil deeds. For your ears are closed, your eyes are blinded, and the heart is hardened, Jeremiah has cried; yet not even then do you listen. The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure.

For Isaiah did not send you to a bath, there to wash away murder and other sins, which not even all the water of the sea were sufficient to purge; but, as might have been expected, this was that saving bath of the olden time which followed those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death, who died for this very reason,

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01282.htm

Quote from: AmoClement of Alexandria

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 – 215) (Titus Flavius Clemens) was an early Christian philosopher and one of the most distinguished teachers of the Church of Alexandria. He is known for his attempt to unite Greek philosophy with Christian teachings and drew a large number of educated pagans to the Church. His passion for philosophy, especially for the teachings of Plato, contributed to the "hellenization" of Christianity.

Clement of Alexandria was, and still is, a highly unorthodox and controversial figure in Church history.

Perhaps the following quotes had something to do with from J. Danielou accusations. All emphasis mine.

Clement of Alexandria
THE STROMATA,
OR MISCELLANIES
BOOK 7
CHAPTER 7
WHAT SORT OF PRAYER THE GNOSTIC EMPLOYS, AND HOW IT IS HEARD BY GOD
And since the dawn is an image of the day of birth, and from that point the light which has shone forth at first from the darkness increases, there has also dawned on those involved in darkness a day of the knowledge of truth. In correspondence with the manner of the sun's rising, prayers are made looking towards the sunrise in the east. Whence also the most ancient temples looked towards the west, that people might be taught to turn to the east when facing the images. "Let my prayer be directed before Thee as incense, the uplifting of my hands as the evening sacrifice," say the Psalms.

EXHORTATION TO THE HEATHEN
CHAPTER 6- BY DIVINE INSPIRATION PHILOSOPHERS SOMETIMES HIT ON THE TRUTH

For the sun never could show me the true God; but that healthful Word, that is the Sun of the soul, by whom alone, when He arises in the depths of the soul, the eye of the soul itself is irradiated. Whence accordingly, Democritus, not without reason, says, "that a few of the men of intellect, raising their hands upwards to what we Greeks now call the air (ajh>r), called the whole expanse Zeus, or God: He, too, knows all things, gives and takes away, and He is King of all.

CHAPTER 8
THE TRUE DOCTRINE IS TO BE SOUGHT IN THE PROPHETS
It is now time, as we have dispatched in order the other points, to go to the prophetic Scriptures; for the oracles present us with the appliances necessary for the attainment of piety, and so establish the truth. The divine Scriptures and institutions of wisdom form the short road to salvation. Devoid of embellishment, of outward beauty of diction, of wordiness and seductiveness, they raise up humanity strangled by wickedness, teaching men to despise the casualties of life; and with one and the same voice remedying many evils, they at once dissuade us from pernicious deceit, and clearly exhort us to the attainment of the salvation set before us. Let the Sibyl prophetess, then, be the first to sing to us the song of salvation: —
"So He is all sure and unerring:
Come, follow no longer darkness and gloom;
See, the sun's sweet-glancing light shines gloriously.
Know, and lay up wisdom in your hearts:
There is one God, who sends rains, and winds, and earthquakes,
Thunderbolts, famines, plagues, and dismal sorrows,
And snows and ice. But why detail particulars?
He reigns over heaven, He rules earth, He truly is;" —
where, in remarkable accordance with inspiration she compares delusion to darkness, and the knowledge of God to the sun and light, and subjecting both to comparison, shows the choice we ought to make. For falsehood is not dissipated by the bare presentation of the truth, but by the practical improvement of the truth it is ejected and put to flight.


CHAP. IX.--"THAT THOSE GRIEVOUSLY SIN WHO DESPISE OR NEGLECT GOD'S GRACIOUS CALLING."
Wherefore the blessed apostle says: "I testify in the Lord, that ye walk no longer as the Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind; having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart: who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness and concupiscence." After the accusation of such a witness, and his invocation of God, what else remains for the unbelieving than judgment and condemnation? And the Lord, with ceaseless assiduity, exhorts, terrifies, urges, rouses, admonishes; He awakes from the sleep of darkness, and raises up those who have wandered in error. "Awake," He says, "thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light," --Christ, the Sun of the Resurrection, He "who was born before the morning star," and with His beams bestows life.

CHAPTER 10
ANSWER TO THE OBJECTION OF THE HEATHEN, THAT IT WAS NOT RIGHT TO ABANDON THE CUSTOMS OF THEIR FATHERS
His Son, and the Word was in God, not disbelieved in by all when He was first preached, nor altogether unknown when, assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh, He enacted the drama of human salvation: for He was a true champion and a fellow-champion with the creature. And being communicated most speedily to men, having dawned from His Father's counsel quicker than the sun, with the most perfect ease He made God shine on us. Whence He was and what He was, He showed by what He taught and exhibited, manifesting Himself as the Herald of the Covenant, the Reconciler, our Savior, the Word, the Fount of life, the Giver of peace, diffused over the whole face of the earth; by whom, so to speak, the universe has already become an ocean of blessings.

CHAP. XI.--HOW GREAT ARE THE BENEFITS CONFERRED ON MAN THROUGH THE ADVENT OF
For how can it be other than desirable, since it has filled with light the mind which had been buried in darkness, and given keenness to the "light-bringing eyes" of the soul? For just as, had the sun not been in existence, night would have brooded over the universe notwithstanding the other luminaries of heaven; so, had we nor known the Word, and been illuminated by Him; we should have been nowise different from fowls that are being fed, fattened in darkness, and nourished for death. Let us then admit the light, that we may admit God; let us admit the light, and become disciples to the Lord. This, too, He has been promised to the Father: "I will declare Thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the Church will I praise Thee."

CHAP. XI.--HOW GREAT ARE THE BENEFITS CONFERRED ON MAN THROUGH THE ADVENT OF
Hail, O light! For in us, buried in darkness, shut up in the shadow of death, light has shone forth from heaven, purer than the sun, sweeter than life here below. That light is eternal life; and whatever partakes of it lives. But night fears the light, and hiding itself in terror, gives place to the day of the Lord. Sleepless light is now over all, and the west has given credence to the east. For this was the end of the new creation. For "the Sun of Righteousness," who drives His chariot over all, pervades equally all humanity, like "His Father, who makes His sun to rise on all men," and distils on them the dew of the truth. He hath changed sunset into sunrise, and through the cross brought death to life; and having wrenched man from destruction, He hath raised him to the skies, transplanting mortality into immortality, and translating earth to heaven--He, the husbandman of God,

THE INSTRUCTOR
[PAEDAGOGUS]
BOOK 1
CHAPTER 9
THAT IT IS THE PREROGATIVE OF THE SAME POWER TO BE BENEFICENT AND TO PUNISH JUSTLY. ALSO THE MANNER OF THE INSTRUCTION OF THE LOGOS
So God is good on His own account, and just also on ours, and He is just because He is good. And His justice is shown to us by His own Word from there from above, whence the Father was. For before He became Creator He was God; He was good. And therefore He wished to be Creator and Father. And the nature of all that love was the source of righteousness — the cause, too, of His lighting up His sun, and sending down His own Son. And He first announced the good righteousness that is from heaven, when He said, "No man knoweth the Son, but the Father; nor the Father, but the Son."

THE STROMATA,
OR MISCELLANIES
BOOK 5
CHAPTER 6
THE MYSTIC MEANING OF THE TABERNACLE AND ITS FURNITURE
Now the Lord, having come alone into the intellectual world, enters by His sufferings, introduced into the knowledge of the Ineffable, ascending above every name which is known by sound. The lamp, too, was placed to the south of the altar of incense; and by it were shown the motions of the seven planets, that perform their revolutions towards the south. For three branches rose on either side of the tamp, and lights on them; since also the sun, like the lamp, set in the midst of all the planets, dispenses with a kind of divine music the light to those above and to those below. The golden lamp conveys another enigma as a symbol of Christ, not in respect of form alone, but in his casting light, "at sundry times and divers manners," on those who believe on Him and hope, and who see by means of the ministry of the First-born. And they say that the seven eyes of the Lord "are the seven spirits resting on the rod that springs from the root of Jesse."

BOOK 6
CHAPTER 17
PHILOSOPHY CONVEYS ONLY AN IMPERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
For it is not that we may seem good that we believe in Christ, as it is not alone for the purpose of being seen, while in the sun, that we pass into the sun. But in the one case for the purpose of being warmed; and in the other, we are compelled to be Christians in order to be excellent and good. For the kingdom belongs pre-eminently to the violent, who, from investigation, and study, and discipline, reap this fruit, that they become kings.


BOOK 7
CHAPTER 3
THE GNOSTIC AIMS AT THE NEAREST LIKENESS POSSIBLE TO GOD AND HIS SON
For, just as the sun not only illumines heaven and the whole world, shining over land and sea, but also through windows and small chinks sends his beams into the innermost recesses of houses, so the Word diffused everywhere casts His eye-glance on the minutest circumstances of the actions of life.


FRAGMENTS OF
CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS
[TRANSLATED BY REV. WILLIAM WILSON, M.A.]
FRAGMENTS
3. — COMMENTS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN.
There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate. That He was always the Word, is signified by saying, "In the beginning was the Word." But by the expression, "we have seen with our eyes," he signifies the Lord's presence in the flesh, "and our hands have handled," he says, "of the Word of life." He means not only His flesh, but the virtues of the Son, like the sunbeam which penetrates to the lowest places, — this sunbeam coming in the flesh became palpable to the disciples. It is accordingly related in traditions, that John, touching the outward body itself, sent his hand deep down into it, and that the solidity of the flesh offered no obstacle, but gave way to the hand of the disciple.

There might be some controversy surrounding Clement of Alexandria, but the quotes you listed don't appear to be the source of it. In fact, I find his teaching, in the quotes provided, to be very good and Christian. But if you believe he has spoken evil in any of the quotes you listed, as you certainly believe he has, then bear witness to the evil, because as it is, I don't see how they teach anything contrary to the faith of Christ. In fact, some of them are quite beautiful in their poetic nature. So thanks for that! 

Quote from: AmoThat term (Sun of Righteousness) appears in scripture once. It is in reference to the fact that although God's appearance will bring destruction and fire upon the wicked, it will be as the healing rays of the sun upon the saved.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

A Jewish prophet speaking the above to the Jews, is a far cry from a Greek philosopher speaking such to pagans or newly converted pagans. One may be appropriate, the other certainly not.

So it's okay for the prophet Malachi to liken Christ to the sun with the epithet "Sun of Righteousness", but it's not okay for a Christian you disagree with to use a similar tactic for teaching? Got it Amo! No bias or prejudice coming from your direction I see 

By the way, I'd like to address your contention that worship and prayer toward the east is always somehow linked with worshipping the sun. While sun-worshipers no doubt worshipped toward the east to the rising of the sun, this in no way prohibits anyone else from facing east to worship and pray as though they are doing it for the same reason. Just as in the committing of a crime, even so in the practice of faith motive is important.

Christians worshipping and praying toward the east is not indicative of sun worship in Christianity. Christians believe that God's glory comes from the east. Hear what scripture says regarding this:

Quote from: Ezekiel 43:1-4Afterward he brought me to the gate, the gate that faces toward the east. And behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east. His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. It was like the appearance of the vision which I saw—like the vision which I saw when I came to destroy the city. The visions were like the vision which I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell on my face. And the glory of the Lord came into the temple by way of the gate which faces toward the east.

Christians also hear what the Psalmist says about singing to God toward the east:

Quote from: Psalm 68:32-33 (LXX)Sing to God, ye kingdoms of the earth; sing psalms to the Lord. Pause.
Sing to God that rides on the heaven of heaven, eastward: lo, he will utter a mighty sound with his voice.

And Christians believe Christ's coming will be from the east:

Quote from: Matthew 24:27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

In fact, on this last note about His second coming, even your prophetess Ellen White said that Christ would come from the east. Hear what she says:

Quote from: Ellen White, The Great Controversy, Page 640Soon there appears in the east a small black cloud, about half the size of a man's hand. It is the cloud which surrounds the Saviour and which seems in the distance to be shrouded in darkness. The people of God know this to be the sign of the Son of man. In solemn silence they gaze upon it as it draws nearer the earth, becoming lighter and more glorious, until it is a great white cloud, its base a glory like consuming fire, and above it the rainbow of the covenant. Jesus rides forth as a mighty conqueror. Not now a "Man of Sorrows," to drink the bitter cup of shame and woe, He comes, victor in heaven and earth, to judge the living and the dead. "Faithful and True," "in righteousness He judges and makes war." And "the armies in heaven" (Revelation 19:11, 14) follow Him. With anthems of celestial melody the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng, attend Him on His way. The firmament seems filled with radiant forms—"ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." Revelation 5:11. No human pen can portray the scene; no mortal mind is adequate to conceive its splendor. "His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of His praise. His brightness was like the light." Habakkuk 3:3, 4. As the living cloud comes still nearer, every eye beholds the Prince of life. No crown of thorns now mars that sacred head; but a diadem of glory rests on His holy brow. His countenance outshines the dazzling brightness of the noonday sun. "And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: King of kings and Lord of lords." Revelation 19:16.

Source: https://tinyurl.com/mxomo4v

Amo, just because someone does something that's similar to what some pagans did a long time ago doesn't mean they're doing it for the same reason. Also, and just as true, something isn't automatically ruined for Christians simply because pagans did something similar. The reasons why Christians worship and pray toward the east are entirely different from the ancient pagans. The similarities are surface and that is all. Christians don't worship the sun, they worship the Sun of Righteousness! Judge with righteous judgment, Amo, and not according to outward appearance.

Quote from: Amo on Sat May 13, 2017 - 14:42:15

Quote

QuoteWhen Christianity went down the same road of apostasy as Israel in amalgamating sun worship with the true worship of God through Christ, God sent the barbarians of the north who caused destruction and desolation everywhere they went. By the time Sunday sacredness had almost completely replaced God's seventh day Sabbath, the western Roman empire collapsed under the weight of continual invasions by the barbarians of the north. They spread destruction and desolation everywhere they went and sacked Rome itself several times. God's judgement comes from the north. When the abomination of desolation is set up again by law in place of God's Sabbath by the last beast of biblical prophesy, God Himself will bring judgement upon this earth.

I see that you have many thoughts in your head Amo. Wrong thoughts for sure, but many nonetheless.

God will be the judge of that, not you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. One of us no doubt will have some serious explaining to do, when we stand before the judge of all.

Give the drama a rest Amo. We're just having a discussion here. Besides, you obviously think the exact same about me. You've certainly said as much.

QuoteSame for you too Amo! After all, the quotes I provided show no indication whatsoever that Sunday was considered a holy day or a day of rest or even a holiday by the ancient Romans. And my quotes are coming from various sources which are all contemporary with links provided, unlike yours. Also, unlike yours, my sources aren't biased and prejudiced against the historic Church and its people.

To the contrary, your entire argument and stance on the matter is completely biased. It serves the purpose of excluding all Christians who continued seventh day Sabbath observance before Sunday observance was even a thought, from what you term the historic church. Christ's church observed the seventh day Sabbath. The historic church you refer to, is that which developed later and over time, as a result of continued and increasing pagan and political influences. I do not deny the development of your historic church, this would be to deny history.  I deny its authenticity as the true church of Christ. Why do you deny the history of Sabbath keeping Christians? Is it not because they testify against your claims that Christ and scripture did away with the observance of a seventh day Sabbath? If not, please do expound.

Apart from this you are arguing against a point I never made. When did I ever state that the pagans had a Sunday "Sabbath" or weekly observance that they carried over into apostate Christianity? I did not. As I already stated, the weekly observance is fully supported from the Judeo-Christian influence upon the new religion. The day of the sun was adapted as suited to both pagan and Christian sentiment capable of being highly regarded by both, though for differing reasons. The prominence of the sun to pagans, and the resurrection of Christ to the Christians. These considerations though were political and unifying in nature, not biblical or Holy Spirit inspired. The Roman Empire absorbed many religions from around the world and made them her own. The Roman Catholic Church being the last of these, which persecuted and outlawed all others.

The following quotes are taken from either the links you provided, or sub links provided from those links, continuing the historical account provided by the same. Which information is far more in line with my projections of the situation under examination, than your own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_ancient_Rome#Holidays_and_festivals

QuoteMilitary settlement within the empire and at its borders broadened the context of Romanitas. Rome's citizen-soldiers set up altars to multiple deities, including their traditional gods, the Imperial genius and local deities – sometimes with the usefully open-ended dedication to the diis deabusque omnibus (all the gods and goddesses). They also brought Roman "domestic" deities and cult practices with them.[165] By the same token, the later granting of citizenship to provincials and their conscription into the legions brought their new cults into the Roman military.[166]
Traders, legions and other travellers brought home cults originating from Egypt, Greece, Iberia, India and Persia. The cults of Cybele, Isis, Mithras, and Sol Invictus were particularly important. Some of those were initiatory religions of intense personal significance, similar to Christianity in those respects.

Emperor Constantine and Christianity
The conversion of Constantine I ended the Christian persecutions. Constantine successfully balanced his own role as an instrument of the pax deorum with the power of the Christian priesthoods in determining what was (in traditional Roman terms) auspicious - or in Christian terms, what was orthodox. The edict of Milan (313) redefined Imperial ideology as one of mutual toleration. Constantine had triumphed under the signum (sign) of the Christ: Christianity was therefore officially embraced along with traditional religions and from his new Eastern capital, Constantine could be seen to embody both Christian and Hellenic religious interests. He passed laws to protect Christians from persecution;[194] he also funded the building of churches, including Saint Peter's basilica. He may have officially ended – or attempted to end – blood sacrifices to the genius of living emperors, though his Imperial iconography and court ceremonial outstripped Diocletian's in their supra-human elevation of the Imperial hierarch.[195]
Constantine promoted orthodoxy in Christian doctrine, so that Christianity might become a unitary force, rather than divisive. He summoned Christian bishops to a meeting, later known as the First Council of Nicaea, at which some 318 bishops (mostly easterners) debated and decided what was orthodox, and what was heresy. The meeting reached consensus on the Nicene Creed.[196][197] At Constantine's death, he was honored as a Christian and as an Imperial "divus".[198] Later, Philostorgius would criticiize those Christians who offered sacrifice at statues of the divus Constantine.[199]

In 380, under Theodosius I, Nicene Christianity became the official state religion of the Roman Empire. Christian heretics as well as non-Christians were subject to exclusion from public life or persecution, though Rome's original religious hierarchy and many aspects of its ritual influenced Christian forms,[206] and many pre-Christian beliefs and practices survived in Christian festivals and local traditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great

QuoteApparently Constantine did not patronize Christianity alone. After gaining victory in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge (312), a triumphal arch—the Arch of Constantine—was built (315) to celebrate his triumph. The arch is decorated with images of the goddess Victoria. At the time of its dedication, sacrifices to gods like Apollo, Diana, and Hercules were made. Absent from the Arch are any depictions of Christian symbolism. However, as the Arch was commissioned by the Senate, the absence of Christian symbols may reflect the role of the Curia at the time as a pagan redoubt.[223]
In 321, he legislated that the venerable day of the sun should be a day of rest for all citizens.[224] In the year 323, he issued a decree banning Christians from participating in state sacrifices[225] Furthermore, Constantine's coinage continued to carry the symbols of the sun.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-religion.php

QuoteMost of the Roman gods and goddesses were a blend of several religious influences. Many of these were introduced via the Greek colonies of southern Italy and others had their roots in the Etruscan or Latin tribes of the region. In some cases the Etruscan or Latin names survived throughout the cultural existence of Rome, but many were adopted so completely that they maintained their names from other cultures. In the east, the Greek names remained the choice of the people and the major gods of the system therefore, were known by both.
The gods of the Roman pantheon began taking on the forms known today during the dynasty of the Etruscan kings in the 6th century BC. These gods, Jupiter (Zeus), Juno (Hera), and Minerva (Athena), were worshiped at the grand temple on the Capitoline Hill. As Rome's power grew and expanded throughout the known world, the Roman Empire came into contact with the cultures and religious beliefs of many cultures. The Romans, happy to absorb and assimilate any culture they encountered thereby reaping the benefits of both its wealth and religious influence, were a mosaic of belief systems.
Foreign gods and customs not only played major roles but were also given temples and priesthoods within Rome itself. The goddess Cybele, a Phoenician god was adopted during the Second Punic War to counteract any benefit that Hannibal may have gained. Even after his defeat, Cybele remained an integral part of the Roman system. Another very popular foreign god was the Persian god Mithra. Overwhelmingly supported in the Legions, this deity offered eternal salvation for the immortal soul and its popularity helped pave the way for the later Christian cult whose similarities made its adoption less difficult.
With the passing of the Roman Republic into that of an Imperial system, the nature of Roman religion expanded again to include the Emperors themselves. Julius Caesar, having claimed to be a direct descendent of Aeneas, the son of Venus, was among the first to deify himself in such a manner. At first, such a system of human divinity was largely rejected by the masses, but the popularity of Caesar helped pave the way for future leaders.
As the Imperial system gained hold, it was common practice for the Emperors to accept divine honors before their deaths. These living gods, in some cases, required sacrificial rituals as signs of loyalty and ingrained themselves with the older more traditional pagan gods. The requirement of a sacrifice to the emperor, as well as the forced belief in the complete pantheon became a significant source of conflict with early Christians. As Christians refused to worship the emperor as a god, persecution of the Christians and conflict with the cult was a constant source of strife.
Emperor worship would continue until late in the western Empire until the reign of Constantine. In the early 4th century AD, Constantine either converted to Christianity or made it an acceptable part of Roman religion, eliminating the emperor deification altogether. Later Emperors such as Julian attempted to revive the old ways, but the deeply rooted Mithraism, and Christian cults combined were firmly set within Roman society. By 392 AD, Emperor Theodosius I banned the practice of pagan religions in Rome altogether and Christianity was, without question, the official religion of the state.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/pontifex-maximus.php

QuotePontifex Maximus
The head priest of the Roman state religion was the Pontifex Maximus, or the greatest of the college of pontifices. While an obviously important and prominent position within the ranks of the Roman system, the Pontifex Maximus was not considered a magistrate comparable to a Consul, Praetor, etc.

During the Republic, the Pontifex was elected by the Comitia Tributa and served for life, while during the Empire, the position was generally held by the Emperor himself. 

Originally, the Ponifices were Patrician only, but the social conditions and changes during the late Republic allowed for Plebeian election as well. These men were responsible for the oversight of the state religious cult as a whole and didn't really oversee particular godly cults, though they could if necessary.
By the Imperial period there were 16 pontifices under the high priest, 15 flamines, who were special priests of the main deities, and the Rex Sacrorum (king of the sacrifices) who performed the religious acts that the king had usually done. Perhaps most importantly, he was he was also responsible for the 18 Vestal Virgins.
The main duty of the pontifices was to provide the pax deorum, or the 'peace with the gods'. Interpreting omens, sometimes through augures, controlling and keeping the official calendar, and the oversight of funerals all fell under the domain of the Pontifex Maximus.

He was responsible for an enormous collection of omens (annales maximi); that would be recorded and collected on a nearly constant basis. These heavenly signs would be written down along with accompanying events, and used to determine the divine favor of the gods. Doing so allowed following generations of priests and magistrates to understand the historic will of the gods and interpret future events against past patterns.
Today, the head of the Roman Catholic Church, the Pope, is still called the Pontifex Maximus. It's a political or governing office that has been in existence and in perpetual use for nearly 3,000 years.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/vestal-virgins.php

QuoteWhile the Pontifex Maximus continues to the present day as an office of the higher order in the Catholic Church, the order of the vestals was disbanded in 394 AD, when non-Christian cults were banned by Theodosius. The Church, wisely trying to keep the general population with a sense of familiarity, readily adopted the use of convents and position of nuns that held many of the same rules and customs as the Vestals.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/christian-persecution.php

QuoteSome viewed the concept of 'martyrdom' as any Christian who had been killed for any reason. Others defined it more conservatively as only those that were executed in defense of their religion. Regardless, by 337 AD and the ascension of Constantine as sole Emperor, the population of the Christian world continued to surge forward. As many as 25 to 30% of the population of the Roman Empire (15 to 20 of 60 million people) has been estimated as being Christian. Together with other similar monotheistic cults, like those of Mithras and Sol Invictus, the old Pagan traditions were slowly becoming a thing of the past. The church too, would do everything in its power to be sure of its continued path to dominance, and the tables would be completely turned on both traditional Pagans and dissenting 'heretics'.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/spread-christianity.php

QuoteChristianity had many similarities to other cults that had already gained widespread acceptance. Mithraism, derived from eastern Zoroastrism was a belief in the son of the sun who also came to earth to rescue mankind from itself. The similarities in the stories of Jesus and Mithras cannot be overlooked as an aid in Christian growth. Mithras was extremely popular in the Legions, and as the army traveled throughout the empire, the acceptance of the monotheistic concept (and the story of the son of god coming to earth to save humanity) traveled with it. The cult of Dionysus, one of the old gods of both Greeks and Romans, also had enough similarities to aid a slow conversion to Christianity. Perhaps even the Imperial cult (emperor worship) played its own part. Augustus himself was considered the son of a god (Julius Caesar) and transcended his human existence to become a divine being after his death. The Roman people had certainly been exposed to enough religious ideas bearing similarities to Christ to make the possibility of the Son of God and Savior of humanity a believable and relatively easy concept to adopt.

The idea was not so pronounced in the early empire and the foundation of the faith, however. Evidence of early Christian behavior and practices is limited, but its known that Christians weren't always of like mind and beliefs either. Several various sects with widely divergent schools of thought developed as the concept of Christ spread. Though most of the pronounced deviations from the Catholic norm, (ie. Donatism, Montanism, Gnosticism, Arianism, Pelagianism, among many others) were fairly late developments, it is evidence of widely varying views and practices regarding Christianity throughout its rise. Eventually, the Orthodox Church would gain supreme hold of the eastern empire, while Catholicism would reign in the west. The Catholic Church brought uniformity to the faith and established it as a public institution rather than small communities of individual followers. The Church not only established strict laws and religious doctrine but it wiped out 'heretic' and divergent thoughts. Sometimes through violence as severe as the persecutions against the early Christians and other times through subtle adoption of pre-existing religious concepts, the Catholic church virtually destroyed these other sects and Paganism along with it.

Early Christians, facing scorn at best and persecution at worst, depending on Emperor and the era, were forced to blend in with their Pagan counterparts. In order to celebrate the 'holidays' of their religion, the Christians used pre-existing holidays and festivals to blend in. Christmas, for example, was originally part of the great festival of the Winter Solstice, or the Saturnalia. By adopting this grand event as the celebration of Christ's birth, Christian revelry was allowed to take place, largely unnoticed. The Church too manipulated customs and traditions of the Pagan Empire to make their faith more adaptable. One of the more difficult challenges was simply getting people to believe in a single god, and give up all the others that they were accustomed to. In overcoming this obstacle, the Church began to adopt Patron Saints of various daily life functions, to allow an easier conversion. Though these Saints weren't gods in the Pagan sense, having multiple choices for the population to look to for guidance helped ease the transition. The idea of the holy trinity too, harkens to a time where people needed separate entities to spread their prayer. Even the office of the Pope as the head of the faith began to replace the Emperor in the eyes of the people as the living incarnation of God on earth.

By the fall of the western Empire (476 AD), Christianity was not only the official religion of the Roman world, but it had supreme authority in matters of morality and human behavior. Censorship played a large role as well. Historical documents of an incalculable number were destroyed or edited in order to prevent anti-Christian, or perceived anti-Christian thought. It is hard to imagine how much written history, and evidence of the ancient world, was lost forever due to this manipulation, but on the contrary, humanity must also recognize the great contribution of the Church to historical preservation.

http://www.unrv.com/culture/christianity.php

QuoteConstantine, though previously a worshipper of Sol Invictus, the Sun God, took on support of Christianity with some zeal. He declared that his victory was owed to the god of the Christians and set about adopting an imperial policy to advance its cause. Some claims have been made that Constantine 'converted to Christianity simply for political means, and that justifiably may have played a part. Arguments have been made that Constantine was baptized years after the fact, just before his death, as a political tool to aid the accession of his sons, but it was often the custom of the early Christians to be 'cleansed' just prior to death rather than at birth. Despite these arguments, Constantine's policies and actions as emperor would indicate some considerable devotion to the Church.

Christian Bishops under Constantine functioned in an official capacity as Imperial advisors. Tax exemptions were granted to Christian priests and money was granted from the Imperial treasury to provide for new and rebuilt churches. At a meeting of Bishops in Milan (313 AD) an edict (of Milan) was passed which essentially granted complete tolerance to all religions, but Christianity would benefit the most. Previous victims of various persecutions were also granted compensation directly from the Roman treasury. Still, however, Constantine left a confusing trail for his personal religious thoughts. Association with Sol Invictus is still cited for several more years, at least until the complete unification of the Empire. The emperor in the east, Licinius maintained an adversarial relationship with Constantine for many years, which included two short wars for Imperial dominance. Licinius seems to have maintained more support for traditional pagan customs and Constantine may have resisted complete Christian conversion in order to maintain the approval of the non-Christian majority population. Perhaps in order to lure Constantine into a final battle, Licinius began inciting Pagans against Constantine's edict which favored Christianity and championed a Pagan cause. By 324 AD, the conflict and rivalry came to a head. Constantine defeated Licinius in battles at Adrianople and Chrysopolis, which ended in Licinius' capture and execution.

The final death knell of the Pagan faith came only a generation later, under the rule of Theodosius. An ardent Christian, and recognizing the amazing growth of the still relatively young faith, Theodosius and his western counterpart Gratian, recognized Christianity as the official religion of the Empire in 380 AD. Gratian too, likely at the partial behest of Theodosius refused the title of Pontifex Maximus (head priest) and it was bestowed instead on the Catholic Pope in Rome. Severe punishments for Pagan, and especially 'heretic' Arianism were enforced and the established Churched prospered. In 390 AD, a massacre ordered by the Emperor of 7,000 people who revolted in Thessalonica resulted in his own 8 month penance. By the beginning of the 5th century, after just 400 years, the Church grew from a fledgling mystery cult into a power on nearly equal terms with the Roman Emperor himself. Though there would still be much work to be done, especially among Germanic tribes and in places such as Britain, Christianity would slowly come to dominate the entire western world.

It seems that a more in depth examination of the links you provided to prove your point, ends up proving my own even better when all the facts provided are taken into account. The interplay, interaction, blending, amalgamation, and eventual political victory of apostate Christianity over paganism, other Christian entities, and even authentic Christianity, is what has been recorded in history. You simply choose to ignore such history, to protect your cherished beliefs. Sunday sacredness came about and arose during all of the above transformation of the Church of Christ from the Lamb to the dragon. It did not originate with Christ or the Apostles, and is not addressed at all by scripture. Ignoring the facts, and repeating lies to yourself will not change the facts, but only leave you deceived. This by your own choice.

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QuoteSome pagan sun worshipers did honor Sunday such as those of Mithraism. There is no denying the history of interplay between sun worshiping pagans and Christianity during its early development. Christianity grew and spread among, in conflict with, and ever increasingly influenced by, predominantly sun worshiping pagans. The development of which reached a climactic point when their Emperor began supporting and eventually claimed to have become a Christian.


Mithrasim began in the Roman Empire around the same time Christianity was beginning to take off in the 1st century AD. It survived until the 4th century AD when Christianity finally overtook it as the dominate faith. Since its rise was in such close proximity with the rise of the Christian faith, it is believed that the adherents of Mithraism "borrowed" elements of their worship and faith from the Christians who were a very prominent sect in the empire. The following is from the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding the apparent borrowing of Mithraism from Christianity, and while you may not like the source of the quote I find its reasoning to be quite compelling in this regard:

Your right of course, concerning my opinion of your source. The Church of Rome is infamous for being very loose and manipulative with the facts of history. The original "Christian" version of historical revisionists as far as I am concerned. It is no surprise that you lean upon the denials of the apostate "Christian" entity most heavily influenced by sun worshiping paganism than any other, to defend your position, though you claim you're not Roman Catholic.
 
Mithraism was around long before it became prevalent within the Roman Empire. It was just one of the very many religions incorporated and absorbed into the empire, as their habit was. It morphed into the Roman version. Much like apostate Christianity when it was finally accepted, then legalized, and then forced upon all of the Roman Empire. The similarities between Mithraism and authentic Christianity are not necessarily due to their influence upon each other contemporarily, though that must be considered, but upon the foresight and deception of the evil one. A student of scripture himself, with the exact purpose of counterfeiting the true faith throughout history until his and its end. Nothing suits his purposes better, than for his minions to be able to claim that the true faith, was and is based upon his false religions which serve the exact purpose of undermining the same.
 
The problem of course, with the Church of Rome's claim and your agreement with it, is all the evidence to the contrary. Just look at the Church of Rome itself, and you have proof of the effects of sun worship upon it, rather than "Christianity's" effect upon sun worship.
 
http://romancatholicbeliefs.org/the-popes-cardinals-bishops-and-priests-of-rome-are-worshipers-of-the-babylon-sun-god-tammuz/
 
http://www.buzzardhut.net/index/htm/SunWorship.pdf
 
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_paganism_Catholic_symbol_St-Peter
 
http://biblelight.net/wheel.htm
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgN4xm8f_FU
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6ejBO6NOoQ