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If the marriages are null and invalid, does that mean they do not need to get divorced if they part company?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/popes-comments-modern-marriage-raise-storm-criticism-115052543.html

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

That is almost a stamp of approval. Guess he doesn't read his bible either.

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
If the marriages are null and invalid, does that mean they do not need to get divorced if they part company?

There are really two aspects to any marriage, one is whether God has made the marriage, and the other is a civil matter with legal ramifications.

If a marriage was not made by God, then in God's eyes they are not married.  However legally speaking they are bound to a marriage contract, and in that case, they would pursue a civil divorce.  There is no divorce in God's eyes; once he makes a Christian marriage, no man can undo it.  That's in the Bible.  Mark 10:9

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
https://www.yahoo.com/news/popes-comments-modern-marriage-raise-storm-criticism-115052543.html

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

That is almost a stamp of approval. Guess he doesn't read his bible either.

This statement requires context.  Not pressure them to what?  To get married?  To live separately until they are prepared to be married?

Marriage is a life-long commitment, and people should not be pressured into it.  Once you are married, there is no divorce.  I don't see any biblical evidence that people should be pressured into marrying.  Even the apostles realized this, when they said "if that is the case, it is not expedient to marry".  Matthew 19:10 

Jesus wasn't contradicting Mark 10:9 when he gave the provision for "porneia".  The only way that one can interpret the Bible and not say that Mark 10:9 is false is to understand porneia (sometimes translated "adultery" but can also mean "unlawful" aka "invalid") is to understand porneia as meaning "unlawful".

If marriage is forever (As the apostles clearly took it in Matthew 19:10 when they realized what Jesus was saying, and Jesus did not correct them) then couples should not be pressured to marry.  They should be instructed to live chastely until they are married.  In that way they can better discern whether marriage, it's lifelong commitment and all that that entails, is what God is calling them to do.



I think its a bigger scandal that Protestants in general don't realize that marriage is a lifetime commitment.  "Christian divorce" was invented by the lustful murderer and Anglican Church founder King Henry VIII and it has been adopted by children of the so-called "reformation" ever since.

You won't see a giggle from me, its a serious matter.

Quote from: Catholica on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 09:34:26

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
If the marriages are null and invalid, does that mean they do not need to get divorced if they part company?

There are really two aspects to any marriage, one is whether God has made the marriage, and the other is a civil matter with legal ramifications.

If a marriage was not made by God, then in God's eyes they are not married.  However legally speaking they are bound to a marriage contract, and in that case, they would pursue a civil divorce.  There is no divorce in God's eyes; once he makes a Christian marriage, no man can undo it.  That's in the Bible.  Mark 10:9

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
https://www.yahoo.com/news/popes-comments-modern-marriage-raise-storm-criticism-115052543.html

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

That is almost a stamp of approval. Guess he doesn't read his bible either.

I think its a bigger scandal that Protestants in general don't realize that marriage is a lifetime commitment.  "Christian divorce" was invented by the lustful murderer and Anglican Church founder King Henry VIII and it has been adopted by children of the reformation ever since.

You won't see a giggle from me, its a serious matter.

You say...There is no divorce in God's eyes; once he makes a Christian marriage, no man can undo it.
Then supporte it with Mark 10:9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.

A true statement , however

Matthew 5:32New King James Version (NKJV)

32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality[a] causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

and
Matthew 19:9New King James Version (NKJV)

9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[a] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."

So sexual immorality/fornication/adultery are grounds in the Bible for divorce. That is God's word.

and in 1 Corinthians 7:12-13 Paul writes,

"If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him"

But further explains...

1 Corinthians 7:15New King James Version (NKJV)

15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

Yes it is serious.... beyond serious.

Now... it most certainly is laughable for the pope to say

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

He is saying if they are fornicating leave it be until they are drawn closer to the marriage act.

That is tantamount to very liberal thinking and quite opposed to very conservative Protestant thinking.

I thank God that He never burdened me with a husband....

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 10:00:33

Quote from: Catholica on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 09:34:26

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
If the marriages are null and invalid, does that mean they do not need to get divorced if they part company?

There are really two aspects to any marriage, one is whether God has made the marriage, and the other is a civil matter with legal ramifications.

If a marriage was not made by God, then in God's eyes they are not married.  However legally speaking they are bound to a marriage contract, and in that case, they would pursue a civil divorce.  There is no divorce in God's eyes; once he makes a Christian marriage, no man can undo it.  That's in the Bible.  Mark 10:9

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
https://www.yahoo.com/news/popes-comments-modern-marriage-raise-storm-criticism-115052543.html

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

That is almost a stamp of approval. Guess he doesn't read his bible either.

I think its a bigger scandal that Protestants in general don't realize that marriage is a lifetime commitment.  "Christian divorce" was invented by the lustful murderer and Anglican Church founder King Henry VIII and it has been adopted by children of the reformation ever since.

You won't see a giggle from me, its a serious matter.

You say...There is no divorce in God's eyes; once he makes a Christian marriage, no man can undo it.
Then supporte it with Mark 10:9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.

A true statement , however

Matthew 5:32New King James Version (NKJV)

32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality[a] causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

and
Matthew 19:9New King James Version (NKJV)

9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality,[a] and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."

So sexual immorality/fornication/adultery are grounds in the Bible for divorce. That is God's word.

This is the common false understanding of the word porneia, that I addressed in my edited post above.  Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 don't contradict Mark 10:9.  Biblical interpretation is not a matter of voting, every verse in the Bible is true, including Mark 10:9.

The only way to interpret these verses where they don't contradict is to understand the meaning of proneia as being "unlawful".

For example, two gay people cannot marry because they are of the same sex.  Their situation falls under "porneia": not the act that they commit in private: they could not be married even if they never committed that act.  They cannot be married because God doesn't marry two people of the same sex.

Other unlawful marriages covered by porneia include a father "marrying" his own child, a person marrying an animal, and really any person "marrying" in disobedience to God's order.

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
and in 1 Corinthians 7:12-13 Paul writes,

"If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him"

But further explains...

1 Corinthians 7:15New King James Version (NKJV)

15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.

Yes it is serious.... beyond serious.

Yes, this is Paul exercising his authority in Christ. See 1 Cor. 7:12: Paul is speaking with His given authority, not the Lord. In the Catholic Church we call this the Pauline privilege.  This is basically two people who got married and then one became Christian.  The Church has the authority to allow separation in such marriages, and even a further marriage, because the original marriage was natural, not sacramental.

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 10:00:33
Now... it most certainly is laughable for the pope to say

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

He is saying if they are fornicating leave it be until they are drawn closer to the marriage act.

That is tantamount to very liberal thinking and quite opposed to very conservative Protestant thinking.

As I have already clarified above, context is needed.  Should not pressure them to what?  To get married?  Or to live chastely until they are married.

The only way to "let fidelity ripen" is to instruct them to begin to live chastely.  It is once they do that then they can think with a clearer head as to whether they are called by God to be married at all, and in particular, that person.

Protestant thinking is false, they would say yes pressure them.  And if it doesn't work out, that's too bad, just get a divorce and then you can get married to someone else.

Jesus didn't promote serial polygamy/polyandry.  Marriage is made by God and is permanent.  And so it is not expedient to marry (as I wrote above) because marriage is lifelong.

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
If the marriages are null and invalid, does that mean they do not need to get divorced if they part company?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/popes-comments-modern-marriage-raise-storm-criticism-115052543.html

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

That is almost a stamp of approval. Guess he doesn't read his bible either.

John 4:18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."


Doesn't look like Jesus pressured this woman either.  He just talked to her, spoke of her situation and then didn't say another word to her about her not being married.    Perhaps that is the method the pope is following?  God doesn't need us to pressure the lost into compliance.  He needs us to love them, and let Him do the changing of heart and behaviors.

Quote from: MeMyself on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 10:42:54

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
If the marriages are null and invalid, does that mean they do not need to get divorced if they part company?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/popes-comments-modern-marriage-raise-storm-criticism-115052543.html

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

That is almost a stamp of approval. Guess he doesn't read his bible either.

John 4:18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."


Doesn't look like Jesus pressured this woman either.  He just talked to her, spoke of her situation and then didn't say another word to her about her not being married.    Perhaps that is the method the pope is following?  God doesn't need us to pressure the lost into compliance.  He needs us to love them, and let Him do the changing of heart and behaviors.

He told her He knew of her sin.  Then He told her to go and sin no more.

He was a bit more proactive then the method The Pope is using.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 11:05:57

Quote from: MeMyself on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 10:42:54

Quote from: Rella on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 08:57:50
If the marriages are null and invalid, does that mean they do not need to get divorced if they part company?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/popes-comments-modern-marriage-raise-storm-criticism-115052543.html

Conservatives also chided Francis for saying at the same meeting that priests should not pressure couples who were co-habitating if they were not ready to get married. He said the priests should "let fidelity ripen"

That is almost a stamp of approval. Guess he doesn't read his bible either.

John 4:18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."


Doesn't look like Jesus pressured this woman either.  He just talked to her, spoke of her situation and then didn't say another word to her about her not being married.    Perhaps that is the method the pope is following?  God doesn't need us to pressure the lost into compliance.  He needs us to love them, and let Him do the changing of heart and behaviors.

He told her He knew of her sin.  Then He told her to go and sin no more.

He was a bit more proactive then the method The Pope is using.

No, that was the woman about to be stoned.

Here is a (very bad Google translate) translation of the question asked and pope's actual words.

Quote
(Third question)

Holiness, good evening. Wherever we go, now we hear about the marriage crisis. So I've been wanting to ask, on what we can point today to educate young people to love, especially the sacramental marriage, overcoming their resistance, skepticism, disillusionment, fear of the final? Thank you.

Pope francesco:

I'll get the last word: we too live a culture of provisional. A bishop, I have heard, some months ago, that occurred a boy who had finished his university studies, a fine young man, and told him: "I want to become a priest, but for ten years." And 'the culture of provisional. And this happens everywhere, even in the priesthood, religious life. The provisional. And for this a part of our sacramental marriages are invalid, because they [the couple] say: "Yes, all my life", but do not know what they say, because they have a different culture. They say, and have the good will, but do not have the knowledge. A lady once, in Buenos Aires, scolded me: "You priests are sly, because to become priests studied eight years, and then, if things do not go and the priest finds a girl he likes ... in the end dates permission to marry and have a family. And we lay, we have to do the sacrament and indissoluble for life, make us do four conferences, and this all my life! ". For me, one of the problems, it is this: marriage preparation.

And then the question is closely linked to the social fact. I remember, I called - here in Italy, last year - I called a guy I had known long ago in Ciampino, and got married. I called him and told him: "I told your mom that you'll get married next month ... Where will you do? ..." - "But we do not know, because we're looking for the church that is appropriate for the dress of my girlfriend ... And then we have to do many things: wedding favors, and then look for a restaurant that is not far away ... ". These are the concerns! A social fact. How to change this? I do not know. A social fact in Buenos Aires: I have forbidden to do religious marriages, in Buenos Aires, in the cases which we call "matrimonios de apuro" marriages "in a hurry" [repair], when the baby is coming. Now things are changing, but there is this: socially must be all in order, get your child, do the wedding. I prohibited from doing so, because they are not free, they are not free! Maybe they love. And I've seen some beautiful cases, in which then, after two or three years, got married, and I saw them go into the church father, mother and child by the hand. But they knew well what they were doing. The crisis of marriage is because they do not know what is the sacrament, the beauty of the sacrament: it is not known which is indissoluble, you know it's not for a lifetime. It's difficult. Another my experience in Buenos Aires: the priests, when they were doing the preparation course, there were always 12-13 pairs, not more, not reach 30 people. The first question you did: "How many of you are living together?". The majority raised his hand. They prefer to live, and this is a challenge, work wonders. Do not just say: "Why are you not in church married?". No. Accompany them: to wait and mature. And to mature loyalty. In the Argentine countryside in the Northeast area, there is a superstition that the engaged couple have a son, live together. In the country, this happens. Then, when the child must go to school, make civil marriage. And then, from grandparents, they make a religious marriage. It 'a superstition, because they say they do it right away religious scares her husband! We must also combat these superstitions. Yet truly I say that I've seen so faithfully in these partnerships, so faithfully; and I'm sure this is a real marriage, have the grace of marriage, just for the loyalty they have. But there are local superstitions. And 'the most difficult ministry, that of marriage.

And then, peace in the family. Not only when they argue with each other, and the advice is always not to finish the day without peace, because the Cold War the next day is worse. And 'worse, yes, it's worse. But when meddling relatives, in-laws, because it is not easy to become in-law or mother-in-law! It's not easy. I heard something beautiful that will appeal to women: when a woman feels that she is pregnant by ultrasonography of a boy, from that moment begins to study to become a mother-in-law!

I'll be back seriously: marriage preparation, you have to do with the proximity, not frightened, slowly. It 'a journey of conversion, so many times. There are, there are boys and girls who have a purity, a great love and know what they do. But they are few. Today's culture presents us these guys are good, and we must approach and accompany them, accompany them, until the time of maturity. And there, that they make the sacrament, but joyful, joyful! It takes a lot of patience, lots of patience. It 'the same patience it takes for the pastoral care of vocations. Listening to the same things, listen: the ear apostolate, listen, accompany ... Not scared, please, do not be frightened. I do not know if I answered, but I speak to you about my experience of what I experienced as a parish priest.

Thank you very much and pray for me!

I see nothing wrong with what the pope said.  He is saying, in short, that there are places in the world where people are growing up in a culture where marriage is an afterthought.  They get pregnant before marriage and then rush to get married.  He is saying that they should not be married at that time: they are rushing into marriage and don't fully comprehend what marriage entails which is a lifelong commitment.  They are doing it because it is the socially expected thing to do.  He is saying that the priests should not marry them, but give them time while accompanying them along the path to marriage to make sure that they understand marriage before they enter into marriage.  And when they are fully understanding of what marriage is and what it entails, then they'd be married.

As usual the media gets all riled up.  But when you read the actual words of the Pope, they make rational sense.  You don't get married because it is the socially expected thing to do.  You get married because it is God's calling for you.  You don't rush headlong into something that will define the rest of your life.  You go into it patiently and with full knowledge of everything it entails, and you choose it for itself, not because of social pressure.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Fri Jun 17, 2016 - 11:05:57

QuoteJohn 4:18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."


Doesn't look like Jesus pressured this woman either.  He just talked to her, spoke of her situation and then didn't say another word to her about her not being married.

He told her He knew of her sin.  Then He told her to go and sin no more.
He was a bit more proactive then the method The Pope is using.

No - Our Lord did NOT tell her to "go and sin no more."  That was the woman taken in adultery during the feast of Tabernacles and occurred at or near the Temple.

In this case there was no accusation of sin at all.

There would have been no instruction concerning her marital status as Samaritan women had no say in such matters (unlike Jewish women).  They had no say in who they married and had no say in divorce proceedings.   The most common cause of divorce among the Samaritans was infertility.