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The second beast of Revelation brings forth the mark of the beast,

QuoteAnd I saw another beast ascending from out of the earth, and he had two horns likened to a lamb; and he spoke as a dragon. (Revelation of John 13:11 [ABP])

QuoteAlso it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked...
(Revelation 13:16 [ESV])

A beast in prophecy symbolizes a kingdom, which is why this beast in the book of Daniel was said to symbolize a kingdom,

Quote"He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth... (Daniel 7:23 [NIV])

As such, the second beast of Revelation symbolizes the United States. And so, as opposed to the first beast rising from the sea, which symbolizes many peoples and languages,

QuoteAnd he says to me, The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes, and nations, and languages. (Revelation of John 17:15 [ABP])

The United States rose from a sparse population, which is symbolized by the second beast rising from the earth, and was thus colonized in a new world by European kingdoms descending from the first beast. And so, the mark of the beast issued by the second beast, has two distinct forms, which are the "name of the beast" or the "number of the name",

Quote...unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. (Revelation 13:17 [ESV])

As such, since the name that is received on the foreheads of the 144,000 chosen,

Quote[3] saying, Injure not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, until we seal the bondmen of our God upon their foreheads. [4] And I heard the numbers of the ones having been sealed -- a hundred and forty four thousand having been sealed, from out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.
(Revelation of John 7:3-4 [ABP])

QuoteAnd I saw, and behold, a lamb standing upon mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty four thousand, having his name and the name of his father being written upon their foreheads. (Revelation of John 14:1 [ABP])

Symbolizes the holy spirit,

Quoteand who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 1:22 [ESV])

QuoteIn him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13 [ESV])

QuotePay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. (Exodus 23:21 [NIV])

Therefore, the mark of the beast is also symbolic. And because having the mark of the beast bears the penalty of the judgment of the lake of fire,

Quote[9] And another angel, a third followed them, saying with a great voice, If any does obeisance to the beast and its image, and receives an imprint upon his forehead or upon his hand; [10] even he shall drink of the wine of the rage of God, the one being mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath; and he shall be tormented by fire and sulphur before the holy angels, and before the lamb.
(Revelation of John 14:9-10 [ABP])

The mark of the beast therefore also symbolizes an actual sin, which specifically breaks a command given by God elsewhere in scripture. And just are there are two distinct forms of the mark, there are also two distinct places to receive the mark, which are on the right hand or on the forehead,

QuoteAlso it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead,
(Revelation 13:16 [ESV])

In which case, the forehead symbolizes ownership of the person, hence why those who are sealed on the forehead with the name of God belong to God. As such, since the forehead is where the chosen receive the name of God, in likewise manner, the forehead is where the "name of the beast" is also received. In which case, there is only one system given by the United States that is forced on everyone, great and small, rich and poor, child and adult,

QuoteAnd he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bondmen, that there should be given to them an imprint upon their right hand, or upon their foreheads. (Revelation of John 13:16 [ABP])

And it is the social security insurance system, which is what the "name of the beast" symbolizes. In which case, the government takes ownership of the person by branding them with a social security number, who then becomes forced to pay into this system for the rest of their life, unless they live long enough to reach a certain old age. This system is based on an abomination,

Quoteengages in usury and charges interest. Will he live? He will not! Because he has done all these abominable deeds he will certainly die. He will bear the responsibility for his own death. (Ezekiel 18:13 [NETBIBLE])

Quotehe shall not give his money with interest, and shall not take money by usury; he shall turn his hand from injustice; he shall execute a just judgment between a man and his neighbor; (Ezekiel 18:8 [ABP])

Which is the abomination of usury, which is an unjust gain of money that is not earned as a hired laborer,

QuoteFor the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages." (1 Timothy 5:18 [ESV])

Nor money earned by renting a property or possession,

QuoteFor two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. (Acts 28:30 [NIV])

Nor money earned by selling a property or possession,

QuoteAll the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. (Acts 2:44-45 [NIV])

But is money that is unjustly gained from various forms of usury, such as gambling, lotteries, stocks, insurances, pensions, annuities, all of which are based on evil schemes for the greedy to take money, to then have a profit of money predicated on chance and time. And so, just as the name of the beast is able to allow men to buy or sell,

Quoteso that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. (Revelation 13:17 [ESV])

So is social security able to indirectly allow men to buy or sell through the use of the social security number, for transactions such as mortgages to buy or sell properties, auto loans to buy or sell cars, and credit cards to buy or sell possessions. And so, as opposed to the "name of the beast" that is received on the forehead, the "number of the name" is received on the right hand, in which case the right hand is a symbol for authority, hence the authority Jesus Christ received sitting at the right hand of God,

Quote[6] And I saw, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a lamb standing as being slain, having seven horns and seven eyes; which are the seven spirits of God being sent into all the earth. [7] And he came, and he took from out of the right hand of the one sitting upon the throne a scroll.
(Revelation of John 5:6-7 [ABP])

QuoteSo then the Lord, after speaking with them, was taken up into the heaven, and he sat at the right of God. (Mark 16:19 [ABP])

QuoteAnd having come forward,  Jesus spoke to them, saying, All authority was given to me in heaven and upon earth. (Matthew 28:18 [ABP])

In which case, the "number of the name" is also related to a man whose number is 666,

QuoteThis calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.(Revelation of John 13:18 [ESV])

As such, since all symbols in Revelation are derived from other passages in scripture, the symbol of 666 is related to this scripture,

QuoteNow the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold, (1 Kings 10:14 [ESV])

As such, the man whom 666 is referring to is Solomon, in which case Solomon, who was the wealthiest man on earth,

QuoteSo King Solomon became greater than all the kings of the earth in riches and in wisdom. (1 Kings 10:23 [NASB])

Symbolizes the United States, which is also the wealthiest nation on earth, because just as 666 relates to the gold that Solomon received, so does 666 relate to the gold that the United States has stockpiled in what is now known as the federal reserve system, in which case, the United States is the nation with the highest gold reserves in the world. As such, the "number of the name" symbolizes the federal reserve and central banking system, which grants customers the authority to buy and sell through its system, using account numbers, checks, and debit cards. This banking system is not only forbidden in scripture because it makes profits from interest, but is also an abomination,

Quote"You shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest. (Deutereonomy 23:19 [ESV])

Quoteengages in usury and charges interest. Will he live? He will not! Because he has done all these abominable deeds he will certainly die. He will bear the responsibility for his own death. (Ezekiel 18:13 [NETBIBLE])

These two forms of the mark of the beast do not just exist in the United States, but all around the world, as most nations have implemented their own social security and central banking systems as well. This is the image of the beast that the second beast tells the inhabitants of the world to make,

Quote...deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. (Revelation 13:14 [ESV])

Which are forms of governments that not only image the republic form of government that the Romans first were, and that the United States now is, but that also image these evil financial systems that exist in the United States. As such, the mark of the beast is already all over the world. And so, in comparison to the seal of the holy spirit that the chosen receive, which cannot be lost, hence why it is called a seal,

Quote"As for me, this is my covenant with them," says the LORD. "My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants--from this time on and forever," says the LORD. (Isaiah 59:26 [NIV])

The mark of the beast, which is not a seal, can indeed be removed, but only by repentance, which means terminating your social security number and also closing your bank accounts, for no one bearing the mark of the beast can receive the seal of God. This is one reason why many among those who believe in Jesus Christ have not received the seal of the holy spirit, because the love of money has caused them to enter these great evils that exist today,

QuoteFor the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. (1 Timothy 6:10 [NIV])

The United States?    It's been a long time since I've known of anyone to pin that on the United States.   Did you go back forty years or so to some teachings by Van Impe?   How about Hal Lindsey?   I was reading a comment today by Robert Gundry who said that Hal Lindsey claimed in one of his books to have beaten him in a debate about the pre-trib rapture.   The only problem is that Gundry was not there and never debated him.   

Have you considered this one?   It refers to the Native Americans ("tall and smooth") of this country.   

Isa 18:2  that sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of papyrus upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation tall and smooth, to a people terrible from their beginning onward, a nation that meteth out and treadeth down, whose land the rivers divide!


 

Quote from: notreligus on Wed Oct 19, 2016 - 22:45:09
The United States?    It's been a long time since I've known of anyone to pin that on the United States.   Did you go back forty years or so to some teachings by Van Impe?   How about Hal Lindsey?   I was reading a comment today by Robert Gundry who said that Hal Lindsey claimed in one of his books to have beaten him in a debate about the pre-trib rapture.   The only problem is that Gundry was not there and never debated him.   

Have you considered this one?   It refers to the Native Americans ("tall and smooth") of this country.   

Isa 18:2  that sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of papyrus upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation tall and smooth, to a people terrible from their beginning onward, a nation that meteth out and treadeth down, whose land the rivers divide!

Why must you people always to try to pin any study I've posted to someone? First, if I'm a JW, then if I'm a Muslim, then if I heard Van Impe, then if I heeded Hal Lindsey. I am not affiliated nor associated with any of these. Just study the scriptures objectively as I have, and you will see for yourself that everything I've been posting is sound teaching and harmonizes with scripture.

The native americans are not the second beast of Revelation, as they do not have world influence, and were supplanted by the Americans. Be logical in your reasonings.

Quote from: cgaviria on Wed Oct 19, 2016 - 19:47:09As such, the second beast of Revelation symbolizes the United States. And so, as opposed to the first beast rising from the sea, which symbolizes many peoples and languages,

You are wrong and are speculating at best. To be brief~let me give to you from the word of God what the mark of the beast is~God's word is its own interpreter, our duty is to take the testimony of the scriptures~here a little and there a little and bring them together to see the truth concerning the mark of the beast.

First, people's vain imagination concerning this mark. This mark has not one thing to do with a literal mark on one's body, so foolish for one to allow themselves to be deceived into believing this fable promoted by men who are void of the Spirit of God and are nothing more than parroting for false religion, that leaves children of darkness in darkness, every learning but never ever able to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This mark is a spiritual mark that every person is BORN WITH~yes, born with. It is  called human depravity, spiritual death, of the mind and heart of children who are of the posterity of the first Adam. I want to be short and to the point with this post, so let us look at the word of God FOR OUR understanding, and not to man.

QuoteRevelation 13:16~"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

He, the spirit of ALL false prophets of Mystery Babylon, the city that Satan is the god of, through their deceptions and another gospel, causes all, both small and great (or the unwise and wise) rich and poor to receive a mark showing that they are in allegiance with BOTH religious and commercial Babylon (Babylon being this world system) that rejects and mocks the truth of the God of heaven, in place of their humanistic wisdom and their own religion, which religion rejects the word of God, and his governing laws, for their own, that they think is better than the word of God. 

The mark of beast is in their right hand~which speak of them being IN FELLOWSHIP with this world system~also it was in the foreheads, showing that the children of mystery Babylon were IN AGREEMENT with their religion and mighty commercial and entertainments endeavors that made Mystery Babylon so desirable !

Concerning the mark in the RIGHT HAND which speaks of fellowship,  consider: 

QuoteGalatians 2:9~And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The scriptures will lead us to truth, while false prophets will leave men in darkness, and ignorance. So be it, if they trust man over the word of God for truth.

As I said, we ALL were born with the mark of the beast, and left to ourselves, then we would do JUST AS everyone else does~this world would system would cause all of us to be God-haters, and we would look to ourselves as the source of wisdom, joy, peace, and happiness. So many scriptures that we could give.

QuoteEphesians 2:2,3~"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Again: 

QuoteEphesians 4:17~This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind"

There are many more showing that we were born with the mark of the beast~a corrupt mind against the God of heaven and earth! When we are born of the Spirit of God, our MINDS renewed again after the image of God in righteousness and true holiness with KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING!  So many scriptures that we could give, but time is of the  essence. Consider:

QuoteEhpesians 4:23~"And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;"

Here are some scriptures for your considerations: Phil. 3:19; Col. 1:21; 2:18; 2 Tim. 1:7; HEBREWS 8:10....so many more.

Sir, you are way off track with your undersanding, way off.

Now, for a strong proof of how believers should understand the mark of 666~consider the prophet Zachariah:

QuoteZachariah 13:7-9~"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Here is the answer to the question what does 666 mean? 666 represents the non-elect who follow the spirit of Mystery Babylon which is this world and all that its has to offer to the vain minds of  the unregenerate. What is two third of any whole? 66% , or 666! The one-third represent the small remnant of the election of grace~WHY do people fret and worry about a literal mark when they themselves are so deep into the love of this present world PROVING that they HAVE the mark of the beast? It's called DECEPTION.  Must stop.

Quote from: RB on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 05:11:29

Quote from: cgaviria on Wed Oct 19, 2016 - 19:47:09As such, the second beast of Revelation symbolizes the United States. And so, as opposed to the first beast rising from the sea, which symbolizes many peoples and languages,

You are wrong and are speculating at best. To be brief~let me give to you from the word of God what the mark of the beast is~God's word is its own interpreter, our duty is to take the testimony of the scriptures~here a little and there a little and bring them together to see the truth concerning the mark of the beast.

First, people's vain imagination concerning this mark. This mark has not one thing to do with a literal mark on one's body, so foolish for one to allow themselves to be deceived into believing this fable promoted by men who are void of the Spirit of God and are nothing more than parroting for false religion, that leaves children of darkness in darkness, every learning but never ever able to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

This mark is a spiritual mark that every person is BORN WITH~yes, born with. It is  called human depravity, spiritual death, of the mind and heart of children who are of the posterity of the first Adam. I want to be short and to the point with this post, so let us look at the word of God FOR OUR understanding, and not to man.

QuoteRevelation 13:16~"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

He, the spirit of ALL false prophets of Mystery Babylon, the city that Satan is the god of, through their deceptions and another gospel, causes all, both small and great (or the unwise and wise) rich and poor to receive a mark showing that they are in allegiance with BOTH religious and commercial Babylon (Babylon being this world system) that rejects and mocks the truth of the God of heaven, in place of their humanistic wisdom and their own religion, which religion rejects the word of God, and his governing laws, for their own, that they think is better than the word of God. 

The mark of beast is in their right hand~which speak of them being IN FELLOWSHIP with this world system~also it was in the foreheads, showing that the children of mystery Babylon were IN AGREEMENT with their religion and mighty commercial and entertainments endeavors that made Mystery Babylon so desirable !

Concerning the mark in the RIGHT HAND which speaks of fellowship,  consider: 

QuoteGalatians 2:9~And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The scriptures will lead us to truth, while false prophets will leave men in darkness, and ignorance. So be it, if they trust man over the word of God for truth.

As I said, we ALL were born with the mark of the beast, and left to ourselves, then we would do JUST AS everyone else does~this world would system would cause all of us to be God-haters, and we would look to ourselves as the source of wisdom, joy, peace, and happiness. So many scriptures that we could give.

QuoteEphesians 2:2,3~"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Again: 

QuoteEphesians 4:17~This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind"

There are many more showing that we were born with the mark of the beast~a corrupt mind against the God of heaven and earth! When we are born of the Spirit of God, our MINDS renewed again after the image of God in righteousness and true holiness with KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING!  So many scriptures that we could give, but time is of the  essence. Consider:

QuoteEhpesians 4:23~"And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;"

Here are some scriptures for your considerations: Phil. 3:19; Col. 1:21; 2:18; 2 Tim. 1:7; HEBREWS 8:10....so many more.

Sir, you are way off track with your undersanding, way off.

Now, for a strong proof of how believers should understand the mark of 666~consider the prophet Zachariah:

QuoteZachariah 13:7-9~"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Here is the answer to the question what does 666 mean? 666 represents the non-elect who follow the spirit of Mystery Babylon which is this world and all that its has to offer to the vain minds of  the unregenerate. What is two third of any whole? 66% , or 666! The one-third represent the small remnant of the election of grace~WHY do people fret and worry about a literal mark when they themselves are so deep into the love of this present world PROVING that they HAVE the mark of the beast? It's called DECEPTION.  Must stop.

Human depravity is not the mark of the beast, since the mark is connected with commerce, hence buying or selling. 666 is also not related to two thirds of mankind, for those who will be saved will be much less, or who do you suppose the 144,000 are? And it is also said, "many are called, few are chosen". There is much confusion in your own response.

RB  -  You and I are on the same page of agreement that total depravity has universally plagued all of mankind since the Fall.  However, it is IMPOSSIBLE for total depravity to be equal to the mark of the beast, simply because there are those individuals described in Rev. 20:4 who did NOT receive the mark.  The mark of the beast is represented in Revelation as a decision that was made by an individual to receive it - which cannot be said of total depravity.  No one since Adam has had a choice in the matter of whether they wanted to be conceived as a sinner or not. 

If the mark of the beast is universal, and is equal to total depravity, then the fate of being "tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb" (Rev. 14:9,10) is also the universal fate for all of mankind.  That would introduce a new doctrine of universal damnation that I have not seen taught before, which I am sure you do not intend.

As for the 666 designation being equal to 66% as in your Zechariah 13 reference, two-thirds is never equal to an even number of 66 or 666 - it is equal to 66.6666 / 666.666, or 666  and a fraction.  And the number of the beast is "the number of A man" (singular) as in Rev. 13:18, not MEN (plural).  I'm afraid the Zechariah reference of 2/3 and 1/3 of men is not addressing this point.   

Neither does the social security number have any relevance to the discussion, (which cgaviria has proposed), because every social security number differs from another, and the Six Hundred and Sixty-Six number was the SAME NUMBER which was applied to all those who received it - the number representing ONE individual man.  The OP is correct in one respect, that this number was symbolic, in the same way that Ezekiel 9:4 described a symbolic mark of God in the forehead given to all those who sighed and cried for all the abominations that were done in Jerusalem before the city was taken by the Babylonians in his days.   These in Ezekiel 9 with the mark of God in their forehead were to be preserved from actual physical death, just as the 144,000 in Revelation 7 were to be preserved by the same type of mark in their foreheads.

John's Revelation borrowed heavily from Ezekiel's prophetic language.  Ezekiel described Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonians, and John described Jerusalem's second death under the Romans.  This mark in Revelation and all that it entailed comes from an already-accomplished episode in history, with no threat of it hanging over our heads today.  The man that this number of the beast referred to has already perished by an assisted suicide back in AD 68.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 09:45:00
RB  -  You and I are on the same page of agreement that total depravity has universally plagued all of mankind since the Fall.  However, it is IMPOSSIBLE for total depravity to be equal to the mark of the beast, simply because there are those individuals described in Rev. 20:4 who did NOT receive the mark.  The mark of the beast is represented in Revelation as a decision that was made by an individual to receive it - which cannot be said of total depravity.  No one since Adam has had a choice in the matter of whether they wanted to be conceived as a sinner or not. 

If the mark of the beast is universal, and is equal to total depravity, then the fate of being "tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb" (Rev. 14:9,10) is also the universal fate for all of mankind.  That would introduce a new doctrine of universal damnation that I have not seen taught before, which I am sure you do not intend.

As for the 666 designation being equal to 66% as in your Zechariah 13 reference, two-thirds is never equal to an even number of 66 or 666 - it is equal to 66.6666 / 666.666, or 666  and a fraction.  And the number of the beast is "the number of A man" (singular) as in Rev. 13:18, not MEN (plural).  I'm afraid the Zechariah reference of 2/3 and 1/3 of men is not addressing this point.   

Neither does the social security number have any relevance to the discussion, (which cgaviria has proposed), because every social security number differs from another, and the Six Hundred and Sixty-Six number was the SAME NUMBER which was applied to all those who received it - the number representing ONE individual man.  The OP is correct in one respect, that this number was symbolic, in the same way that Ezekiel 9:4 described a symbolic mark of God in the forehead given to all those who sighed and cried for all the abominations that were done in Jerusalem before the city was taken by the Babylonians in his days.   These in Ezekiel 9 with the mark of God in their forehead were to be preserved from actual physical death, just as the 144,000 in Revelation 7 were to be preserved by the same type of mark in their foreheads.

John's Revelation borrowed heavily from Ezekiel's prophetic language.  Ezekiel described Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonians, and John described Jerusalem's second death under the Romans.  This mark in Revelation and all that it entailed comes from an already-accomplished episode in history, with no threat of it hanging over our heads today.  The man that this number of the beast referred to has already perished by an assisted suicide back in AD 68.

I did not say that social security is related to 666. If you read my study carefully, I say that the federal reserve system is related to 666. The name of the beast and the number of the beast are two distinct forms of the mark of the beast.

Revelation 13:18 KJV
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

• It gives the certain place called wisdom as the reference place.
• Then it gives another place of who is counting the number as understanding. Both wisdom and understanding are places/things in the Spirit.
• Then it says that the one who understands should count (not guess, infer from scriptures, or wildly speculate about) the number six hundred, then three scores, and then six using wisdom as the reference place/thing.
  
  There is an orderly arrangement of all things of God in the heavenly pattern. Correspondingly, there is an opposite pattern for all things of the devil.
  
  Each of things constituting all things of God has a place in the pattern and has a number. It is from the heavenly pattern that we count the number of any heavenly thing.
• Figuratively speaking, the Spirit is the right hand of God. Correspondingly, the spirit of the man is his right hand. Both wisdom and understanding are things in the Spirit.
  
  Any thing of the spirit (for example wisdom or understanding) is a mark in the hand. We find an example in Ezra 7:25 KJV that declares:
  And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.
  
  So, those to whom the beast gives his wisdom (read folly) have, figuratively speaking, his mark on their hands.
  
  "666" is not about the United States social security and banking systems, gold reserves, tattoo or microchip implant in the right hand, or any of those common speculations often thrown around.

Quote from: Glorious on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 13:08:36
Revelation 13:18 KJV
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

• It gives the certain place called wisdom as the reference place.
• Then it gives another place of who is counting the number as understanding. Both wisdom and understanding are places/things in the Spirit.
• Then it says that the one who understands should count (not guess, infer from scriptures, or wildly speculate about) the number six hundred, then three scores, and then six using wisdom as the reference place/thing.
  
  There is an orderly arrangement of all things of God in the heavenly pattern. Correspondingly, there is an opposite pattern for all things of the devil.
  
  Each of things constituting all things of God has a place in the pattern and has a number. It is from the heavenly pattern that we count the number of any heavenly thing.
• Figuratively speaking, the Spirit is the right hand of God. Correspondingly, the spirit of the man is his right hand. Both wisdom and understanding are things in the Spirit.
  
  Any thing of the spirit (for example wisdom or understanding) is a mark in the hand. We find an example in Ezra 7:25 KJV that declares:
  And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.
  
  So, those to whom the beast gives his wisdom have, figuratively speaking, his mark on their hands.
  
  "666" is not about the United States social security and banking systems, gold reserves, tattoo or microchip implant in the right hand, or any of those common speculations often thrown around.

Do you even know what wisdom is? Wisdom is hidden knowledge found scripture. For example, the wisdom behind animal sacrifices in the law is that they symbolizes the true and literal sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The same with 666, the wisdom behind the number is found in the old testament passage that correlates with it, and it relates to wealth and gold. This is why is takes wisdom to know the mystery behind 666, because you have to know scripture to thus derive wisdom from it to then understand the mystery and how it points to a literal thing in existence.

A hidden knowledge is called a mystery. Wisdom and mystery are not synonymous.

In order to count, there must be an acceptable numerical system and things to count.

So, when the scripture tells you to count the number "666", you count things from the certain and acceptable numerical system.

You don't speculate about a country with the greatest gold reserves and call that wis dom or counting. By any stretch, that is not counting, but something quite different.

What if, in few years, China or any other country overtakes to have a much larger reserve or economy? Won't your meaning of the beast or "666" also change? That is not wisdom, but your meaningless spin.

Quote from: Glorious on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 14:23:35
A hidden knowledge is called a mystery. Wisdom and mystery are not synonymous.

In order to count, there must be an acceptable numerical system and things to count.

So, when the scripture tells you to count the number "666", you count things from the certain and acceptable numerical system.

You don't speculate about a country with the greatest gold reserves and call that wis dom or counting. By any stretch, that is not counting, but something quite different.

What if, in few years, China or any other country overtakes to have a much larger reserve or economy? Won't your meaning of the beast or "666" also change? That is not wisdom, but your meaningless spin.

Wisdom and mystery are without a doubt synonymous,

QuoteNo, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7 [NIV])

You really have no clue what wisdom is, because you have none. Wisdom is hidden in scripture, and so, when Revelation says, "here is wisdom..." in reference to 666, it is implying that the mystery behind 666 is hidden somewhere in scripture. As such, I've already revealed it to you, yet you did not understand it. True is this saying,

Quote"Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. (Matthew 7:6 [ESV])

The correlation between those two passages is not a coincidence.

Are wisdom and mystery synonymous because they appear in the same sentence and scripture verse? No wonder your several scriptural and spiritual misadventures!

Many things in the Scripture remain as mysteries until revealed:

• wisdom that is not yet revealed is a mystery. It does not mean that every mystery is wisdom.
• grace remains a mystery until revealed. It does not mean that every mystery is grace.
• the church and Christ, or a man and wife coming together to become one flesh, is a mystery until revealed. It does not mean that every mystery is the church and Christ, or a man and his wife.
• Christ being the hope of glory in saints is a mystery until revealed. It does not mean that every mystery is Christ the hope of glory in saints.
• there are many mysteries of the kingdom of God now revealed to those who enter
• and so on, and so forth.

So, any hidden knowledge about a thing or person is the mystery of such a thing or person until revealed. That is how come there is a scripture like Ephesians 3:3 KJV that declares : How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Below, I can show you what is neither wisdom nor a mystery. Rather, it is one of the most laughable and ridiculous things I have ever read on any GC forum:

cgaviria wrote about "666"inter alia:

QuoteSymbolizes the United States, which is also the wealthiest nation on earth, because just as 666 relates to the gold that Solomon received, so does 666 relate to the gold that the United States has stockpiled in what is now known as the federal reserve system, in which case, the United States is the nation with the highest gold reserves in the world. As such, the "number of the name" symbolizes the federal reserve and central banking system, which grants customers the authority to buy and sell through its system, using account numbers, checks, and debit cards. This banking system is not only forbidden in scripture because it makes profits from interest, but is also an abomination,

I'm just going to leave this here for anyone who hasn't heard of this...

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

In both ancient Greek and Hebrew, letters also represented numerals (as they do in Latin), their values assigned according to the order of the alphabet, alpha and aelph, for example, having the numerical value of 1. By adding these values, words could be represented as the sum of their numbers. This literation of numbers and numeration of letters was known as isopsephism by the Greeks and gematria by the Jews (which, in cabalistic practice, has been used to interpret Hebrew scripture). If the Greek letters of Nero Caesar (Neron Kaisar) are transliterated into Hebrew (nrwn qsr), the numerical of these Hebrew letters equals 666. One should appreciate, by the way, that there were no numbers in Greek or Hebrew and that the "the number of the beast" was not presented as a figure but as letters of the alphabet or written in full. That is to say, it was not expressed as "666" (indeed, discrete Arabic numerals would not be invented for another five hundred years) but as the numerical values of the three letters representing 600, 60, and 6.

What is curious is not so much that 666 can be decoded to signify Nero but that the name of the emperor is encoded in this particular number, especially since it could have been represented more readily in other ways. If "Nero" is retained in Greek, for example, the numeration would be 955 or, if "Neron," 1005; in Hebrew, then 256 or 306, respectively. It only is when the Greek letters are transliterated into Hebrew that the numeration adds up to 666 (nrwn qsr, 50 + 200 + 6 + 50 + 100 + 60 + 200). Even so, this is an alternate spelling, a letter in "Neron" being transliterated (nrwn instead of nrw) but not in "Caesar" (qsr instead of qysr), although these forms do appear in both the Talmud and a contemporary Aramaic scroll from Qumran. It is intriguing, therefore, that 666 encodes the name of Nero in Hebrew when Revelation, itself, was written in Greek.

For Watt, the significance of 666 is that its expression in Latin is the sequential Roman numerals DCLXVI, which parallels but is the antithesis of the "Alpha and Omega" that John uses to characterize both Christ (22:13) and God (1:8, 21:6). As the Deity represents the beginning and end, so the Antichrist is a reversal of the first and last, D (500) preceding I (1). To phrase this another way, 666 (or rather DCLXVI) signifies the Antichrist because that number signifies Nero, and Nero—who was a matricide, the first emperor to persecute the Christians, and proclaimed his divinity as the "Savior and Benefactor of the World"—signifies the Antichrist. Indeed, in Acts 25:26, the Roman procurator of Judea refers to Nero as "my lord" (kyrios), the same title applied to Jesus.

If the Latin (rather than the Greek) spelling "Nero Caesar" is transliterated into Hebrew (nrw qsr), the final "n" in Neron being omitted (and its corresponding value of 50), the name computes as 616, which is the number indicated in the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament (the fragment illustrated below). It may be that the Latin was transcribed incorrectly, perhaps because the copyist realized that the transliteration did not equate to 666 ("Neron Caesar") and so omitted the letter, which changed the sum to 616. Or he may have done so deliberately to make its decipherment easier.

Still, each digit of 666 is one less than seven, the perfect number (of which John was particularly fond, having used it fifty-seven times in Revelation), and such mathematical play may have tended to establish 666, rather than 616, as "the number of the beast." Regardless, Nero is the only name that can account for both 666 and its variant 616, which is the most compelling argument that he, and not some other emperor such as Domitian was intended. Too, for the number to have any significance for a reader of the first century AD, it would have to refer to a contemporary historical figure.


http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/nero.html

Quote from: cgaviria on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 15:50:16You really have no clue what wisdom is, because you have none.

Your statement to Glorious is uncalled for and is nothing more than coming from a person who thinks that he has wisdom in this particular truth, and maybe every truth. You should have said, IN THIS AREA you are showing that you do not have true wisdom. We have no right to judge a man's spirit over certain doctrine that's not easy to come unto the knowledge of, and this one before us certainly fits the bill. Okay, let say he's wrong and you right (which you are not btw) Glorious very well may be correct on another truth that YOU ARE NOT, I have seen this many times over in my almost 45 years of walking in the Christian religion/faith. I think you need to stop accusing believers of being TOTALLY void of wisdom. You need to memorize Paul's words:

Quote1st Corinthians 8:1-3~"Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

The key is this: does another person love God, if so, then we should love them, BECAUSE GOD DOES. We can and should rebuke another brother firmly, yet do so in love, and kindness, not with a spirit of "know it all" thinking others are void of any wisdom whatsoever. Enough said, let us move on. 

Quote from: cgaviria on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 08:38:15Human depravity is not the mark of the beast, since the mark is connected with commerce, hence buying or selling.

Well now, IF you had the wisdom of God concerning what is before us, then you would understand what John is speaking about when he said:

QuoteRevelation 13:17~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

The meaning of this is not hard to see. John is speaking of being able to be part of the apostate church in the closing days of this world's history! There's coming a day, and NOW IS, when true believers are NOT wanted, welcome, or desired in the church of the twenty-first century~they would be called trouble makers, Pharisees, Holy-than-thou, over much righteous, etc. etc. Church goers of the twenty-first-century hate and reject God's elect. They are NOT welcome. These churches think that they are doing God a service by speaking against certain people who strictly live according to the scriptures. ONLY those who have the mark of the beast or, who live as they do, think as they think, and pick and chose what they want to believe as they do...are the ONLY ones welcome in the churches of our days. This is John meaning~sir you have been deceived believing that it has reference to literal commerce and literal buying and selling. I could say more, but enough to show you the biblical sense I understand buying and selling. Saints are commanded to buy the truth and sell it not, spiritually we do this every day we live~so many professing Christian are willing to not sell the truth, but just give it away in order to get along and be part of the country club, better known as~the First Baptist Church, etc.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 09:45:00As for the 666 designation being equal to 66% as in your Zechariah 13 reference, two-thirds is never equal to an even number of 66 or 666 - it is equal to 66.6666 / 666.666, or 666  and a fraction.  And the number of the beast is "the number of A man" (singular) as in Rev. 13:18, not MEN (plural).  I'm afraid the Zechariah reference of 2/3 and 1/3 of men is not addressing this point.   

Zachariah 13:7-9 is a perfectly supporting scripture reference, or AS NEAR perfect as you would ever get with any other scriptural teaching in God's word, with other doctrines, for three reasons: First, equation is as near perfect as one can get, say what you will, but it is true; and secondly, the PEOPLE FIT~the righteous and wicked; and lastly, end results fit, destruction for the wicked and the righteous inheriting the land. If these scriptures were not given for the sole purpose of giving us an understanding of God's mysteries, then there are not such scriptures available for us in all of the word of God, and we all are at lost as to how we must use the scriptures to search out and uncover the mysteries of God. 3~"R", they fit too perfectly to discard them.  The world is wondering in darkness and scared to death over the possibility of them being tagged with 666 in any way, because of all the strange teachings that they have heard from false prophets, when the truth is HIDDEN in the scriptures right under their nose.

QuoteHowever, it is IMPOSSIBLE for total depravity to be equal to the mark of the beast, simply because there are those individuals described in Rev. 20:4 who did NOT receive the mark.  The mark of the beast is represented in Revelation as a decision that was made by an individual to receive it - which cannot be said of total depravity.  No one since Adam has had a choice in the matter of whether they wanted to be conceived as a sinner or not. 

3~"R" you are wrong~It can be said that we received not the mark of the beast when we refused to not fellowship, and not agree with this world system, in both its religion and what it has to offer as a way to have  happiness, peace, and contentment as it uses it entertainment (lust of the flesh) and all its goodly merchandises (lust of the eyes) and all it has to offer (pride of life)...to allude us to do so.  We have been called out of this world by God's grace, and also God continuously calls out of Babylon (this world system and all of its temptations it has to offer us........

QuoteRevelation 18:4~"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

This call by John is the VERY SAME ONE that he gave already here:

Quote1st John 2:15-17~"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

To believe that they are different is to be deceived, for they are not, but are one and the same. Now, by nature we ALL were children of wrath even as others, but once the Spirit of God quickens us to life, we refuse to fellowship and agree with this world and its false religion headed up by Devil, whom you reject as even having a part of this world since 70 A.D. Of course, you and I will disagree on almost everything when it comes to Eschatology.

QuoteJohn's Revelation borrowed heavily from Ezekiel's prophetic language.  Ezekiel described Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonians, and John described Jerusalem's second death under the Romans.  This mark in Revelation and all that it entailed comes from an already-accomplished episode in history, with no threat of it hanging over our heads today.  The man that this number of the beast referred to has already perished by an assisted suicide back in AD 68.

Your corrupt doctrine leaves many that accepts it unprepared for the evil days coming.

QuoteAnd the number of the beast is "the number of A man" (singular) as in Rev. 13:18, not MEN (plural).

I just remembered that I forgot to say something concerning what you said concerning the number of he beast.

Quote "the number of A man"

The sense of that is this: It is the number of A MAN that is void of the Spirit of God, or, a man that lives according to the course of this present world and all that it has to offer...or, a man that said~WHO is the Lord that "I" should obey him; or A MAN that said, who is wiser than "ME". Yes, we too know that it is a number of THAT MAN! That man that is part of the 2/3, or the majority of the world, in contrast of the small remnant. Selah

Quote from: RB on Sat Oct 22, 2016 - 03:45:06

Quote from: cgaviria on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 08:38:15Human depravity is not the mark of the beast, since the mark is connected with commerce, hence buying or selling.

Well now, IF you had the wisdom of God concerning what is before us, then you would understand what John is speaking about when he said:

QuoteRevelation 13:17~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

The meaning of this is not hard to see. John is speaking of being able to be part of the apostate church in the closing days of this world's history! There's coming a day, and NOW IS, when true believers are NOT wanted, welcome, or desired in the church of the twenty-first century~they would be called trouble makers, Pharisees, Holy-than-thou, over much righteous, etc. etc. Church goers of the twenty-first-century hate and reject God's elect. They are NOT welcome. These churches think that they are doing God a service by speaking against certain people who strictly live according to the scriptures. ONLY those who have the mark of the beast or, who live as they do, think as they think, and pick and chose what they want to believe as they do...are the ONLY ones welcome in the churches of our days. This is John meaning~sir you have been deceived believing that it has reference to literal commerce and literal buying and selling. I could say more, but enough to show you the biblical sense I understand buying and selling. Saints are commanded to buy the truth and sell it not, spiritually we do this every day we live~so many professing Christian are willing to not sell the truth, but just give it away in order to get along and be part of the country club, better known as~the First Baptist Church, etc.

The mark of the beast, nor the beast itself, relate to a church, they relate to a government power, that issues out a way to buy or sell that is sinful. The days already came when the elect have been rejected and killed, what do you think happened to the prophets of old, to Jesus Christ, to the apostles, to the early church? They were all persecuted, and many of them martyred. This is not anything new. There is much confusion in your understanding of these prophecies.

Quote from: Glorious on Fri Oct 21, 2016 - 23:46:42
Are wisdom and mystery synonymous because they appear in the same sentence and scripture verse? No wonder your several scriptural and spiritual misadventures!

Many things in the Scripture remain as mysteries until revealed:

• wisdom that is not yet revealed is a mystery. It does not mean that every mystery is wisdom.
• grace remains a mystery until revealed. It does not mean that every mystery is grace.
• the church and Christ, or a man and wife coming together to become one flesh, is a mystery until revealed. It does not mean that every mystery is the church and Christ, or a man and his wife.
• Christ being the hope of glory in saints is a mystery until revealed. It does not mean that every mystery is Christ the hope of glory in saints.
• there are many mysteries of the kingdom of God now revealed to those who enter
• and so on, and so forth.

So, any hidden knowledge about a thing or person is the mystery of such a thing or person until revealed. That is how come there is a scripture like Ephesians 3:3 KJV that declares : How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Below, I can show you what is neither wisdom nor a mystery. Rather, it is one of the most laughable and ridiculous things I have ever read on any GC forum:

cgaviria wrote about "666"inter alia:

QuoteSymbolizes the United States, which is also the wealthiest nation on earth, because just as 666 relates to the gold that Solomon received, so does 666 relate to the gold that the United States has stockpiled in what is now known as the federal reserve system, in which case, the United States is the nation with the highest gold reserves in the world. As such, the "number of the name" symbolizes the federal reserve and central banking system, which grants customers the authority to buy and sell through its system, using account numbers, checks, and debit cards. This banking system is not only forbidden in scripture because it makes profits from interest, but is also an abomination,

You don't know what wisdom is, because you don't know how wisdom relates to mystery. Let's see if you can explain this, and you probably won't find the answer in Google because many also do not know wisdom, but explain to me the meaning of this verse,

QuoteBut God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding. (Jeremiah 10:12 [NIV])

How did God found the world in wisdom?

John slightly obscured the name of the man that is the beast by identifying him with the number 666.  An early copyist changed this to 616, showing that some people in the early church thought 666 was a reference to Nero.  666 is pretty straight forward the number representing Nero's name with a Greek spelling.  As Latin was quickly taking over in the church, a copyist translated 666 to 616, Nero's name with the Latin spelling.

My judgement is that the name is obscured so that Nero wouldn't do more to suppress the book of Revelation or use it as an excuse to further persecute Christians.  Christians familiar with Hebrew, which was commons in the first century, would easily have linked the number to Nero. 

We also know it has to be Nero because Revelation tells us that the events it speaks of were at hand in the first century.

QuoteRB: Your corrupt doctrine leaves many that accepts it unprepared for the evil days coming.

That way of thinking makes the pretrib rapture doctrine the most corrupt doctrine on the planet.  People who think they're going to skip the evil days ahead aren't gong to prepare for them.  And, worse, thinking they're going to skip the evil days ahead means they're going to be blind to recognizing false prophets and beasts because they believe they won't be here to see these things.  Worse yet, pretrib rapture believers often appear to want to trash the church and the planet to hurry up the rapture, or just for personal gain as they make false predictions and dates.

Maybe you think I won't recognize the beast 666 because I believe that's history.  But, I believe there are many beasts and evil days ahead.  The west is growing increasingly evil and Christians in American will face very evil days very soon.

Quote from: cgaviria on Sat Oct 22, 2016 - 07:00:30The mark of the beast, nor the beast itself, relate to a church, they relate to a government power, that issues out a way to buy or sell that is sinful.

Are not you the same gentleman that usually starts out his post by quoting several scriptures? Then why do you not take the scriptures and prove me wrong? I know why it is because you cannot do so. If you could, then you would at least attempt to do so. You telling me that the mark of beast or the beast itself has not one thing to do with a church or churches, means not one thing, at best it only means that that is your personal opinion~and you know what that means, it means that it is worthless, and carries no weight with the saints. Now to prove you are in error, then consider, first:

QuoteReelation 13:7~"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

The beast (Mystery Babylon the great city under the control of the dragon, the Devil himself) which INCLUDES BOTH religious Babylon and its powerful commerce that has labored to convert this present world into paradise in order to deceive its followers to give their souls unto the devil~and do they ever! This beast makes war with the SAINTS, and overcome them during the little season mentioned in the scriptures JUST BEFORE the coming of Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE EIGHT KINGDOM that was prophesied to come. Also, John said:

QuoteRevelation 13:11-17~And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

SAME time period, SAME BEAST, just ADDED INFORMATION concerning what saints should understand that shall take place during the little season just before the coming of Jesus Christ. It is impossible to separate the church from the beast. I have an appointment but shall return later.

Quote from: RB on Sat Oct 22, 2016 - 07:59:58

Quote from: cgaviria on Sat Oct 22, 2016 - 07:00:30The mark of the beast, nor the beast itself, relate to a church, they relate to a government power, that issues out a way to buy or sell that is sinful.

Are not you the same gentleman that usually starts out his post by quoting several scriptures? Then why do you not take the scriptures and prove me wrong? I know why it is because you cannot do so. If you could, then you would at least attempt to do so. You telling me that the mark of beast or the beast itself has not one thing to do with a church or churches, means not one thing, at best it only means that that is your personal opinion~and you know what that means, it means that it is worthless, and carries no weight with the saints. Now to prove you are in error, then consider, first:

QuoteReelation 13:7~"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

The beast (Mystery Babylon the great city under the control of the dragon, the Devil himself) which INCLUDES BOTH religious Babylon and its powerful commerce that has labored to convert this present world into paradise in order to deceive its followers to give their souls unto the devil~and do they ever! This beast makes war with the SAINTS, and overcome them during the little season mentioned in the scriptures JUST BEFORE the coming of Jesus Christ. THIS IS THE EIGHT KINGDOM that was prophesied to come. Also, John said:

QuoteRevelation 13:11-17~And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

SAME time period, SAME BEAST, just ADDED INFORMATION concerning what saints should understand that shall take place during the little season just before the coming of Jesus Christ. It is impossible to separate the church from the beast. I have an appointment but shall return later.

My entire study is based on scripture, yet you say I do not use scripture? Why must I requote the same scriptures I use in the study? Go see for yourself that it is the second beast that brings forth the mark of the beast to buy or sell, not the whore of babylon. They are two distinct entities. One is a government, the other is a false church.

Total agreement with both raggthyme13 and Tertullian's comments regarding the 666 and 616 numbers that both point to Nero. 

Since Revelation was written (according to its own internal evidence) just before AD 60, then Nero as the representative of the first beast from the sea in Rev. 13 was soon to "overcome the saints" during his 3 1/2-year blistering pogrom against the Christians (AD 64-68).  This persecution would follow the great fire of Rome, (the sea beast's "deadly wound"), which the Christians were blamed for.

Nero's rise to  power as the "little horn" was predicted long before in Daniel's prophecy, when he would "wear out the saints of the Most High".  This persecution of the saints under Daniel 7:25's little horn was prophesied to persist for this same 3 1/2 years.  (They would be given unto him for a time, times, and a dividing of time.)  The  little horn would "war with the saints and prevail against them" (Dan. 9:21), which Nero did from late AD 64 until his death in AD 68.  It is the same "war with the saints that overcame them" in Rev. 13:7 by the beast with the 666 / 616 number (i.e. Nero).  It is the same period of "fiery trial" sufferings the the saints were then experiencing in I Peter 4 and 5, for which Peter was providing comfort.  The "end of all things was at hand" at that time (I Peter 4:7).

Nero as the representative of the Roman beast from the sea in Rev. 13 is not the same as the other two beasts presented in Rev. 13 & 17.  He is "ANOTHER" beast (allos).  Their places of origin were different (sea, earth, and wilderness).  Their characteristics were different (10 horns with crowns, 2 horns, 10 horns with no crowns) .  Their activities were different as well.  It is true that they DID collaborate with each other, as the 2-horned beast from the earth (ge - land of Israel) would support and cooperate with  the Roman beast from the sea in order to preserve "their place and their nation" as Caiphas stated in John 11:48.  The 2 horns on this beast from the earth represented the prevailing Pharisee and Sadducee factions then in power.

The main distinction of the third beast found in the wilderness is that it would turn against the Roman beast from the sea in a rebellion against Rome - an "apostasia" - which would result in its total destruction (the second death of the harlot / Jerusalem, the death of the 10 horns / her 10 generals , and the final elimination of the 7 and 8th "kings" or high priests from the House of Annas).

All these events were soon to come after Revelation was penned just before AD 60.  The language in the NT, (but especially Revelation), which expresses imminence is presented in various terms so that no one should fail to see that these events were to come soon in that 1st-century generation.  To completely ignore this language of imminence creates nothing but confusion in one's understanding of this book.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sat Oct 22, 2016 - 13:58:10
Total agreement with both raggthyme13 and Tertullian's comments regarding the 666 and 616 numbers that both point to Nero. 

Since Revelation was written (according to its own internal evidence) just before AD 60, then Nero as the representative of the first beast from the sea in Rev. 13 was soon to "overcome the saints" during his 3 1/2-year blistering pogrom against the Christians (AD 64-68).  This persecution would follow the great fire of Rome, (the sea beast's "deadly wound"), which the Christians were blamed for.

Nero's rise to  power as the "little horn" was predicted long before in Daniel's prophecy, when he would "wear out the saints of the Most High".  This persecution of the saints under Daniel 7:25's little horn was prophesied to persist for this same 3 1/2 years.  (They would be given unto him for a time, times, and a dividing of time.)  The  little horn would "war with the saints and prevail against them" (Dan. 9:21), which Nero did from late AD 64 until his death in AD 68.  It is the same "war with the saints that overcame them" in Rev. 13:7 by the beast with the 666 / 616 number (i.e. Nero).  It is the same period of "fiery trial" sufferings the the saints were then experiencing in I Peter 4 and 5, for which Peter was providing comfort.  The "end of all things was at hand" at that time (I Peter 4:7).

Nero as the representative of the Roman beast from the sea in Rev. 13 is not the same as the other two beasts presented in Rev. 13 & 17.  He is "ANOTHER" beast (allos.  Their places of origin were different (sea, earth, and wilderness).  Their characteristics were different (10 horns with crowns, 2 horns, 10 horns with no crowns) .  Their activities were different as well.  It is true that they DID collaborate with each other, as the 2-horned beast from the earth (ge - land of Israel) would support and cooperate with  the Roman beast from the sea in order to preserve "their place and their nation" as Caiphas stated in John 11:48.  The 2 horns on this beast from the earth represented the prevailing Pharisee and Sadducee factions then in power.

The main distinction of the third beast found in the wilderness is that it would turn against the Roman beast from the sea in a rebellion against Rome - an "apostasia" - which would result in its total destruction (the second death of the harlot / Jerusalem, the death of the 10 horns / her 10 generals , and the final elimination of the 7 and 8th "kings" or high priests from the House of Annas).

All these events were soon to come after Revelation was penned just before AD 60.  The language in the NT, (but especially Revelation), which expresses imminence is presented in various terms so that no one should mistake that these events were to come soon in that 1st-century generation.  To completely ignore this language of imminence creates nothing but confusion in one's understanding of this book.

Have you ever read how some believed Nero would come back from the dead and pose as Christ himself? From what I gather, these believed early on that many Christians would be deceived to destruction because they were awaiting the return of Jesus pre-wrath. Strange... I'd never heard this until I read further in the article I posted earlier.

raggthyme13  -  Thank you, I did read through the link in your last reply.  My first encounter with this "Nero Redivivus" myth was from reading Gentry's book "Before Jerusalem Fell".  This myth is used by some as an attempt to prove a late-date composition for Revelation.  The reasoning behind this idea presumes that Rev. 13 and the "deadly wound" which the head recuperates from is a reference to the "Nero Redivivus" myth, which cropped up between AD 69- 89.  This would hint at a possible later date of authorship for Revelation. 

This myth can't possibly be referred to in Rev. 13.  Here's why.  The "deadly wound" is NOT to one of the 10 crowned HORNS (Nero, as one of the 10 emperors) on the sea beast.  The wound is to one of the 7 HEADS instead.  The heads represent only the 7 literal mountains of the city of Rome on this sea beast.  It is different with the other, 3rd wilderness beast in Rev. 17.  On that 3rd beast, we are told by the angel that the heads are a double referrent to BOTH 7 literal mountains (of Jerusalem) AND to 7 "kings of the earth" (high priests). 

This is not the case in Rev. 13.  If the "deadly wound" in Rev. 13 is to a "head", then it is equal to a deadly wound to a literal mountain that is connected with Rome.  In other words, it's a geographical catastrophe that the 7-hilled city of Rome itself experienced.  The timing of Revelation's authorship, (just before AD 60), fits the occasion of the AD 64 fire at Rome, followed by an  expensive rebuilding program which "healed" this wound to the city.  Subsequent to the great fire at Rome, the massive bronze "Colossus of Nero" that was built to stand near his fabulous "Golden House" also fits with the Rev. 13 events.  The donation of supporting funds for the construction of this towering 100-foot Colossus were apparently encouraged by the beast from the earth and its 2-horned leadership (the Pharisees and Sadducees).

I cannot agree, though, with the link's suggestion that Nero fulfilled the Man of Sin / Antichrist prediction.  Nero may have demanded an inordinate share of emperor worship as God that Rome had long engaged in, but he never claimed to fulfill the Daniel 9:24-25 prophecy of being the anointed Messiah / Christ sent to Daniel's people.  Also, he never set foot in their temple during his lifetime to fulfill that II Thess. 2:4 prediction.   This type of label in II Thess. 2 - the "son of perdition"  and the "Man of Lawlessness" titles - had been given to idolatrous members of Israel before back in Isaiah's day.  (Isaiah  57:4 LXX - "...Are ye not children of perdition?  A lawless seed?")  The label was applied to yet another son of Israel, the Antichrist, in those last days.  Not being a son of Israel, Nero did not fit this label.

To be the promised Messiah was a claim only someone with a Judean lineage would have made.  Once the Jews rejected and denied that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Dan. 9:24-25 Messiah, then their attempts to replace Him resulted in pseudo Christs (antichrists).  The many antichrists, including the one main Antichrist of II Thess. 2,  would come out from among John's own countrymen in that "last hour" (I John 2:18-19).  This could not have applied to Nero.  These efforts at producing a substitute Messiah, instead of acknowledging Jesus as God's Son, were encouraged by the Judean False Prophet system (the Rev. 13 beast from the earth).  This 2nd beast was hoping for a military-type commander that would finally step forward to lead their nation, and the 3rd wilderness beast of Rev. 17 with its 10 horns (10 generals appointed for the war in AD 66) provided candidates for this.

John the Baptist had been the True Prophet that prepared the way for the True Christ.  This 2nd beast from the earth in Rev. 13, (a.k.a the False Prophet), was a wretched substitute for John's role. The False Christs from the 3rd beast that stepped forward to compete with each other for the leadership of the nation in AD 66 were not even a pale imitation of the True Christ.  They were doomed to failure from the start.

Quote from: cgaviria on Sat Oct 22, 2016 - 11:59:00My entire study is based on scripture, yet you say I do not use scripture?

I never said you did not use scriptures~what I said was this:

QuoteAre not you the same gentleman that usually starts out his post by quoting several scriptures?

And I then asked another question:

QuoteThen why do you not take the scriptures and prove me wrong?

I then proceeded to tell you why you did not:

QuoteI know why it is because you cannot do so. If you could, then you would at least attempt to do so.

You then asked this:

QuoteWhy must I requote the same scriptures I use in the study?

Very simple~I addressed those scriptures that you used.  I'm not allowing you to play mind games with me, as though I'm not able to follow your cunning ways as you are trying convinced me, and others or even yourself  that you have answered my post back to you~when in fact, you have not. You must now take what I gave to you do as anyone in a debate would do (unless you are a professional politician who are very good of never answering questions that will expose their lies and weakness) and address the scriptures where I explained that you used them incorrectly~ and the ones that I gave to reveal your errors, prove that I use them incorrectly, or you are not really interesting in the truth, but are only here to push your vain ideas that you cannot support with the word of God, for IF the word of God is teaching what you say it is teaching, then you would have no trouble using the scriptures in your support of your understanding of what you believe is the truth, which I KNOW it is not. Now would you like to go back to my post to you and try again, if not, then you have nothing to say, and you need to remove yourself from this discussion~ Not being mean, but why waste your time and ours? Unless you just love to hear yourself talk, which some do. I have seen enough of wasted debates among our politicians to despise their way of never answering in a way that reveals their errors.

Quote from: Tertullian on Sat Oct 22, 2016 - 07:37:57That way of thinking makes the pretrib rapture doctrine the most corrupt doctrine on the planet.  People who think they're going to skip the evil days ahead aren't gong to prepare for them.  And, worse, thinking they're going to skip the evil days ahead means they're going to be blind to recognizing false prophets and beasts because they believe they won't be here to see these things.  Worse yet, pretrib rapture believers often appear to want to trash the church and the planet to hurry up the rapture, or just for personal gain as they make false predictions and dates.

Well, I agree, but I think you should know that I'm NOT of their camp. I'm A-mill idealist~if it is important to put labels on others doctrine in order to know where they are coming from, which I have no problem with that.

QuoteMaybe you think I won't recognize the beast 666 because I believe that's history.  But, I believe there are many beasts and evil days ahead.  The west is growing increasingly evil and Christians in American will face very evil days very soon.

Well I agree that Christians in America and around the world will suffer and will be put to silence by those who are the leaders of those who have the mark of the beast. I will only say this, for now, to keep this post short, so I can work on answering Three Resurrection whom I FINALLY came to realize who he is, but will keep his identity private since it is his desire to so, but we have been friends for thirty-one years this coming February.  Concerning the scriptures reference that I gave that UNLOCKS the number of the beast (Zachariah 13:7-9) Not one person address my scripture references and try to correct me on my use of them in order to interpret Revelation 13:18....my question to you, three Resurrection and  cgaviria is why have not one of you done so? Instead all steps outside of the scriptures and used "extra-biblical" information in order to interpret truth hidden IN THE SCRIPTURES. I'll go with the angel of God who said to Daniel:

QuoteDaniel 10:18-22~"Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,  And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me. Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."

I can promise you and anyone else one thing.......I will NEVER step outside of the scriptures of truth to teach a BIBLE TRUTH, or to SUPPORT a bible truth, NEVER. But all Preterist and half-baked Preterist (Historical A-mill~Three Resurrection knows what I mean by term) MUST DO SO.

RB  -  Certainly, I have no problem addressing the context of Zechariah 13:7-9 if you wish.  Not every point brought up in someone's comment can be covered in a single reply, but if you would like  this Zech. 13 reference covered in more depth, I'll do my best to oblige.  It may veer off the OP topic a bit in the process, but it will show how I do not see a connection to the mark of the beast in this passage. 

Zech. 13:7-9, as you know, does not exist in a vacuum.  It is one of a lengthy series of some 16 or so predictions for Israel (and more particularly Jerusalem) that start in Zech. 12:1 going through Zech. 14:21, that are particularly stated to take place "IN THAT DAY".  A typical phrase in the OT describing an episode of prophetic material intended for a people or a nation often starts with "The BURDEN of the word of the Lord for     X     ", which Zech. 12:1 begins with for Israel.  He then proceeds to give a description of what can only be the AD 70 "siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem" (Zech. 12:2) with all the harrowing details.

Jerusalem would become a trodden stone, trampled upon by all nations (Zech. 12:3) with its inhabitants plagued from within by the governors / captains of Judah (the 10 horns / generals) who preyed on their own people by "burning and devouring" them (Zech. 12:6), just as the 10 horns / quasi "kings" would burn and devour the whore / Jerusalem in Rev. 18:16.  What had been earlier prophesied long before in Zechariah was declared in Revelation to be unfolding soon in that generation.

The families (phule - tribes of Israel in Jerusalem) would mourn as they saw the total dissolution of their temple structure, their Levitical priesthood, and the death of any future genealogical line through David that could sit on a throne in Jerusalem over an ethnic people (Zech. 12:11-14).  All records proving legitimate genealogical lines were literally burned up in AD 70, which eliminated the future re-establishment of a physical priesthood or a king sanctioned by God coming from ethnic Israel from that time forward.  "Shiloh" had come already (as Jacob had predicted in Gen. 49:10) and any paltry competitor attempting to emerge as a rival Messiah after Christ's finished work became an idol in Jerusalem that would be "cut off" and forgotten (Zech. 13:2).  Unclean spirits and false prophets in Israel would pass out of the land "IN THAT DAY".  Sorry, folks, no more demons around since the AD 70 end of the siege, at which time the "False prophets" of the beast from the earth in Rev. 13 met their end also.

Finally, RB, your Zech. 13:7-9 passage comes up.  "Awake, O sword against my shepherds and against the man who is my citizen, saith the Lord Almighty: smite the shepherds and draw out the sheep: and I will bring mine hand upon the little ones." (v.7 - LXX)  Part of this prophecy applied first to the scattered disciples upon Christ's arrest (Matt.26:31), but the "hand upon the little ones" part was definitely a duplicate of Christ's prediction to the weeping women on His way to Calvary when He said, "Weep not for me, but weep for yourselves AND FOR YOUR CHILDREN..." (Luke 23:28).  Vengeance for His shed blood was upon the Jews "AND OUR CHILDREN", just as all the people in Matt. 27:25 called down this curse upon their own 1st-century generation.

Next, Zech. 13:8 speaks of the 2/3 cut off who perished in "all the land" (ge - land of Israel - not the whole planet).  This is a copy of the same scenario that occurred during Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonians.  At that time, Ezekiel's shaved hair divided by weight into 3 exactly equal portions (Ezekiel 5) illustrated how God's judgment would be portioned out to His people Israel in the Babylonian dispersions.  Of the 2/3 destined to die, 1/3 of these would die of famine and disease in the city's siege, and the other 1/3 would die by the sword.  The other remaining 1/3 would be scattered to all the winds with a sword chasing them.  Only a "few in number" would be initially reserved and bound (sealed) in Ezekiel's skirts, followed by being cast into the fire afterward.

The very same division of judgment on Jerusalem happened for its second death in AD 70.  Zechariah 13:8-9 prophesied for Jerusalem that 2/3 total in all the land of Judea would die (Zech. 13:8).  Only 1/3 would be "left" or "remain" (Zech. 12:14 cp. Zech. 13:8).  Of these 1/3 that lived, they would be brought through a fire that would purge out the dross and leave a purified remnant of true, believing Jews - part of the "One New Man" that God would acknowledge as part of His true people - the Israel of God.

(As a brief aside, there is real significance in the "shaved hair" imagery in Ezekiel.  It is a picture of the Numbers 6:1-21 process of shaving and burning that a Nazarite had to perform once their vow ended, either prematurely, or at the close of their holy, separation period.  The portions of shaved hair in Ezekiel 5 being "judged" were a public demonstration that Israel's period of a covenant vow of holy separation unto God had been ended.  This was true for Israel under her 1st death in the Babylonian invasion, and was likewise true for her 2nd death under the Romans.  Both Ezekiel and Zechariah's presentation of the combined 2/3 and 1/3 symbolism is used to portray the fate of Jerusalem's inhabitants on those two occasions.)

raggthyme13 wrote :

QuoteIn both ancient Greek and Hebrew, letters also represented numerals (as they do in Latin), their values assigned according to the order of the alphabet, alpha and aelph, for example, having the numerical value of 1. By adding these values, words could be represented as the sum of their numbers. This literation of numbers and numeration of letters was known as isopsephism by the Greeks and gematria by the Jews (which, in cabalistic practice, has been used to interpret Hebrew scripture). If the Greek letters of Nero Caesar (Neron Kaisar) are transliterated into Hebrew (nrwn qsr), the numerical of these Hebrew letters equals 666. One should appreciate, by the way, that there were no numbers in Greek or Hebrew and that the "the number of the beast" was not presented as a figure but as letters of the alphabet or written in full. That is to say, it was not expressed as "666" (indeed, discrete Arabic numerals would not be invented for another five hundred years) but as the numerical values of the three letters representing 600, 60, and 6.

While gematria assigns numerical values to alphabets/symbols in a language of men, God's numbering system assigns numerical values to all things of God and their times.

All things of God are carefully arranged in the heavenly pattern that is designed according to His name, glory and power, and according to their various times (dispensations).

Note that in God's numbering system, the counting of times (dispensations) is not the literal count of years, months, weeks or days according to Jewish, Gregorian or any other calendar.

For example, and counting us-ward, a thousand years simply tells us about God coming into the world to manifest the name, glory and power of the Lord. It is does not mean that His manifestation will last exactly 1,000 calendar years.

In order to correctly count and then apply God's numbering system, the believer must receive both the understanding and the wisdom of God respectively. Understanding enables the believer to discern, wisdom enables the skills with which to apply what is understood.

Counting is either done us-ward from God's end of the spectrum, or God-ward from our beginning of the spectrum.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Oct 23, 2016 - 12:57:26Zech. 13:7-9, as you know, does not exist in a vacuum. 

I certainly understand this truth, for I used correctly Revelation 13:18 to interpret it, (which is what we are suppose to do) which you failed to do, but, I must be honest, you gave a convincing argument that would confuse some of the best of God's children.

Quote It may veer off the OP topic a bit in the process, but it will show how I do not see a connection to the mark of the beast in this passage. 

This is true, because as I ponder how I wanted to answer your post in way where you will not be able to gainsay, I knew that I must lay a solid foundation that was going to take us away from the OP~My thoughts about this~so be it, if the gentleman who started it has no problem with it~let us see what he thinks. I want to deal with the prophets of the OT main teaching concerning Judah and Israel which men like you seem to narrow its meaning to Jewish nation only, at least when it serve your purpose, especially is this so when it come to judment, and then limit that judgement 70 A.D.~which btw, if I as a Christian had never heard of that doctrine (which is really NOT a biblical doctrine but made so by men who were unable to see spiritual meaning behind certain scriptures and HAD TO LOOK OUTSIDE of the scriptures for their help) then I would never would have even considered it~ period! The reason being, for there is NOT even a scripture in the NT that would cause a believer to consider it. I read the bible through more than once without using commentaries in my first early Christian life and I  NEVER consider such a doctrine, never not once. It's a man-made doctrine, and nothing more, and these same men have almost perfected it to a degree that even the best of God's children must work extremely diligently to not be deceived by men who step outside of the scriptures to bring inside a doctrine that will leave men unprepared for the evil days ahead. You men misused OT scriptures when it come to NT application by Christ, Paul and John.

QuoteHosea 1:9-11~"Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

QuoteHosea 2:21-23~ "And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

QuoteHosea 3:3,4~ "For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days."

QuoteRomans 9:22-26~"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."

Verses 25 & 26 of Romans chapter 9 take the prophecies from Hosea 1 & 2 (which seemingly spoke about the literal nation of Israel), quote them word for word, and then tells us that this was speaking about the Gentiles.  We must pay careful attention to what is happening here.  This is not my interpretation of these passages.  This is what God has plainly declared in His word.  God applies a spiritual interpretation to these words that He inspired His prophet Hosea, to write, indicating to us that the prophecy is ultimately fulfilled by the Gentiles coming to the knowledge of Christ along with the remnant of Jews. In this prophecy in Hosea (and others like it in the OT), Judah (the southern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from the nation of Israel, and Israel (the northern kingdom) is used spiritually to refer to the remnant of God's people from all of the Gentile nations.  We have to understand that God does everything for a reason.  There is nothing arbitrary or insignificant about His inspired word or His providential control of history.  When He split the kingdom in two, He did so (or allowed) to use this event to speak symbolically about the two types of people that He has in this world, those from the Jewish nation, and those from the Gentile nations.  This is what the kingdoms of Judah and Israel symbolized ~ the Jews and the Gentiles.  The language that we see in the OT about re-gathering the dispersed of the northern kingdom of Israel ultimately has its fulfillment in the NT church age with the remnant of the Gentile nations being brought into the body of Christ along with the remnant of the Jewish nation to form the Church.  God's people are now one, with one shepherd and King over them, the Lord Jesus Christ (referred to as "David their king" in Hosea 3:5).  Ezekiel speaks of the exact same idea when he prophecies of the joining of the two sticks.

Now I said that to say this (please forgive me for taking you around the world to bring my point out) The OT prophecy MUST HAVE NT SUPPORT in order to be precise in understanding what we are reading from the OT~Including but not limiting to the JUDGMENTS we see and read about, of which must be interpreted concerning latter days judgment to the CHURCH, who are the Judah and Israel of the prophets prophecy. Jacob's trouble that was to come has not one thing to do with Jacob's literal seed, but the elect seed in Christ.

OT prophets spoke in parables and dark sayings, which we MUST allow the NT interpret for us. Well, you do so when it serves your purpose and when it does not you refuse to do so. I agree that many OT scriptures are not easy to understand especially is this so in Zechariah and Ezekiel. But, with help of the NT we can overall get a very solid understanding. Example:

QuoteZechariah 12:10~"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

QuoteZechariah 13:1,2~"In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land."

QuoteZechariah 14:8,9~"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

All three of these passages are talking about the exact same event ~ the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.  And the spiritual pictures that God paints for us all throughout His word but, how would we know this without the light of the NT? We would not. Much of your teaching concerning 70 A.D. is dependence on taking the OT prophets literal and then bring HISTORY into the argument. Now, maybe I can answer some of your points with that in view.  Later........

Quote from: Glorious on Mon Oct 24, 2016 - 02:55:04


In order to correctly count and then apply God's numbering system, the believer must receive both the understanding and the wisdom of God respectively. Understanding enables the believer to discern, wisdom enables the skills with which to apply what is understood.

We shouldn't forget that the first Christians who received John's revelation (and to whom it was originally penned) were told that with wisdom, let a man calculate the number of the beast (which was said also to be the number of a man). It would make sense then, that the beast would've had to have been a reality in their time, since they were given such specifics. They were undoubtedly in the midst of great persecution. The "book" brought much comfort to them, speaking directly to their suffering and the glory that would follow. I think the point of the article I shared was that his identity was encoded, so to speak, in cryptic language so as to avoid being noticed by the authorities. Only those to whom it was written would be able (with understanding) to decipher it. Even if you go to Blue Letter Bible and look up this verse, they refer 666 directly to Nero. It can't be denied how his name adds to both 666 and 616, which I feel is pretty strong evidence. I'm convinced by even the small amount of research I've done on the topic. But not everyone is willing to except it, and that's ok. In time, we will all know the truth of the matter.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Mon Oct 24, 2016 - 22:53:45

Quote from: Glorious on Mon Oct 24, 2016 - 02:55:04


In order to correctly count and then apply God's numbering system, the believer must receive both the understanding and the wisdom of God respectively. Understanding enables the believer to discern, wisdom enables the skills with which to apply what is understood.

We shouldn't forget that the first Christians who received John's revelation (and to whom it was originally penned) were told that with wisdom, let a man calculate the number of the beast (which was said also to be the number of a man). It would make sense then, that the beast would've had to have been a reality in their time, since they were given such specifics. They were undoubtedly in the midst of great persecution. The "book" brought much comfort to them, speaking directly to their suffering and the glory that would follow. I think the point of the article I shared was that his identity was encoded, so to speak, in cryptic language so as to avoid being noticed by the authorities. Only those to whom it was written would be able (with understanding) to decipher it. Even if you go to Blue Letter Bible and look up this verse, they refer 666 directly to Nero. It can't be denied how his name adds to both 666 and 616, which I feel is pretty strong evidence. I'm convinced by even the small amount of research I've done on the topic. But not everyone is willing to except it, and that's ok. In time, we will all know the truth of the matter.

Raggthyme13.....Have a look before you post again how many posts you have done. (666)

Quote from: Gods Princess on Tue Oct 25, 2016 - 02:45:51

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Mon Oct 24, 2016 - 22:53:45

Quote from: Glorious on Mon Oct 24, 2016 - 02:55:04


In order to correctly count and then apply God's numbering system, the believer must receive both the understanding and the wisdom of God respectively. Understanding enables the believer to discern, wisdom enables the skills with which to apply what is understood.

We shouldn't forget that the first Christians who received John's revelation (and to whom it was originally penned) were told that with wisdom, let a man calculate the number of the beast (which was said also to be the number of a man). It would make sense then, that the beast would've had to have been a reality in their time, since they were given such specifics. They were undoubtedly in the midst of great persecution. The "book" brought much comfort to them, speaking directly to their suffering and the glory that would follow. I think the point of the article I shared was that his identity was encoded, so to speak, in cryptic language so as to avoid being noticed by the authorities. Only those to whom it was written would be able (with understanding) to decipher it. Even if you go to Blue Letter Bible and look up this verse, they refer 666 directly to Nero. It can't be denied how his name adds to both 666 and 616, which I feel is pretty strong evidence. I'm convinced by even the small amount of research I've done on the topic. But not everyone is willing to except it, and that's ok. In time, we will all know the truth of the matter.

Raggthyme13.....Have a look before you post again how many posts you have done. (666)

I wouldn't have noticed that! LOL

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Mon Oct 24, 2016 - 22:53:45 Even if you go to Blue Letter Bible and look up this verse, they refer 666 directly to Nero. It can't be denied how his name adds to both 666 and 616, which I feel is pretty strong evidence. I'm convinced by even the small amount of research I've done on the topic. But not everyone is willing to except it, and that's ok. In time, we will all know the truth of the matter.

Dear precious believer, I would "NEVER" allow myself to be convinced through a small amount of research, and especially research! Saints live by every word of God, and if we cannot find scriptural support, then we MUST reject whatever SEEMS to make sense, if what we see is OUTSIDE....EXTRA-BIBLICAL information that is considered by many as equal par with God's testimony of what is truth.  Preterism is such as system, that relies heavily upon HISTORY, and NOT the word of God. Remove history support and its foundation (which is built upon the sand history) Preterism does not stand. God's truth is HIDDEN in the word of God, and there we must go and humble ourselves and beg God for light and understanding of his word, and with patience wait for light from the Spirit of God concerning HIS TRUTH on any given doctrine. 

Quote from: RB on Tue Oct 25, 2016 - 04:28:12Preterism is such as system, that relies heavily upon HISTORY, and NOT the word of God. Remove history support and its foundation (which is built upon the sand history)Preterism does not stand. 

Preterism is demanded by the Bible.

Rev 1: "1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass... for the time is at hand."

Mark 13: "1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Many Christians reject preterism not because of honest Bible interpretation but because of the influence of false teachers who want to entertain and excite their flocks by telling their flocks that the eschatology in the Bible is about today.  The excuse of anti-preterists to reject preterism is that that the events in the vision in Revelation when taken literally aren't found in history. 

Quote from: Glorious on Mon Oct 24, 2016 - 02:55:04
While gematria assigns numerical values to alphabets/symbols in a language of men, God's numbering system assigns numerical values to all things of God and their times.

All things of God are carefully arranged in the heavenly pattern that is designed according to His name, glory and power, and according to their various times (dispensations).

Note that in God's numbering system, the counting of times (dispensations) is not the literal count of years, months, weeks or days according to Jewish, Gregorian or any other calendar.

For example, and counting us-ward, a thousand years simply tells us about God coming into the world to manifest the name, glory and power of the Lord. It is does not mean that His manifestation will last exactly 1,000 calendar years.

In order to correctly count and then apply God's numbering system, the believer must receive both the understanding and the wisdom of God respectively. Understanding enables the believer to discern, wisdom enables the skills with which to apply what is understood.

Counting is either done us-ward from God's end of the spectrum, or God-ward from our beginning of the spectrum.

Does your post sound as much like gibberish to you as it does to me?