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And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

What Glory did Jesus possess and share with His Father before the world was, and did it include the Father`s attributes?

Quote from: DaveRC on Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 18:20:48
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

What Glory did Jesus possess and share with His Father before the world was, and did it include the Father`s attributes?

Are you seeking an answer or just testing the rest of us?  Do you believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus is one of the Trinity, existing for all eternity past and future, or not?  Do you believe Jesus when He said, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) ?

Quote from: DaveRC on Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 18:20:48What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

Very simple: Jesus in his Divine nature is the Everlasting Father of all things. Jesus is God, without any qualifications in his Divine nature.  Jesus was also the Son of God, begotten in time around two thousand years ago. Jesus Christ was a complex person~fully God, and fully man. The Word in the beginning, which was God joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and walked among men. Immanuel was not begotten~ Jesus, the Son of God (who is a Spirit that dwells in eternity) was begotten by the power of the Highest. It is without controversy a great mystery of godliness.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 05:25:43

Quote from: DaveRC on Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 18:20:48
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

What Glory did Jesus possess and share with His Father before the world was, and did it include the Father`s attributes?

Are you seeking an answer or just testing the rest of us?  Do you believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus is one of the Trinity, existing for all eternity past and future, or not?  Do you believe Jesus when He said, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) ?

Glory of the flesh?

Or Glory of the Spirit as God and Christ  are a Spirit before the earth was even conceived?

What Glory did Christ possess before the earth was conceived,  flesh or Spirit?

Quote from: RB on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 05:45:29

Quote from: DaveRC on Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 18:20:48What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

Very simple: Jesus in his Divine nature is the Everalsting Father of all things. Jesus is God, without any qualifications in his Divine nature.  Jesus was also the Son of God, begotten in time around two thousand years ago. Jesus Christ was a complex person~fully God, and fully man. The Word in the beginning, which was God joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and walked among men. Immanuel was not begotten~ Jesus, the Son of God (who is a Spirit that dwells in eternity) was begotten by the power of the Highest. It is without controversy a great mystery of godliness.

What Glory did Christ share with the Father before the earth was even conceived,  man or Spirit?

Furthermore,  Christ returns in the Glory of His Father,

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:27!

Quote from: DaveRC on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 18:35:32What Glory did Christ possess before the earth was conceived,  flesh or Spirit?

If you had any sense of discernment then your answer was clearly given to you in my post to you.

QuoteVery simple: Jesus in his Divine nature is the Everlasting Father of all things. Jesus is God, without any qualifications in his Divine nature. 

Also, the earth was not conceived but created!

What Glory is Jesus speaking in John 7:39? Hint: Acts 2:32-36!

What is Hebrews 2:7-9 speaking about for that matter too?

See,  Jesus had a Glory long before he became a man.  This is the Glory Jesus is speaking about in John 17:5.

Quote from: DaveRC on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 18:35:32

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 05:25:43

Quote from: DaveRC on Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 18:20:48
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

What Glory did Jesus possess and share with His Father before the world was, and did it include the Father`s attributes?

Are you seeking an answer or just testing the rest of us?  Do you believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus is one of the Trinity, existing for all eternity past and future, or not?  Do you believe Jesus when He said, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) ?

Glory of the flesh?

Or Glory of the Spirit as God and Christ  are a Spirit before the earth was even conceived?

What Glory did Christ possess before the earth was conceived,  flesh or Spirit?

Jesus was not flesh before the creation of the world [universe].  He wasn't flesh before He was born the child of Eve. Jesus isn't flesh now.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:21:23

Quote from: DaveRC on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 18:35:32

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 05:25:43

Quote from: DaveRC on Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 18:20:48
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

What Glory did Jesus possess and share with His Father before the world was, and did it include the Father`s attributes?

Are you seeking an answer or just testing the rest of us?  Do you believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus is one of the Trinity, existing for all eternity past and future, or not?  Do you believe Jesus when He said, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) ?

Glory of the flesh?

Or Glory of the Spirit as God and Christ  are a Spirit before the earth was even conceived?

What Glory did Christ possess before the earth was conceived,  flesh or Spirit?

Jesus was not flesh before the creation of the world [universe].  He wasn't flesh before He was born the child of Eve. Jesus isn't flesh now.

That is exactly the point I am making and presents a strong case for preterism,  as futurism and premillennialism teach Christ is coming back bodily in a physical body but He really came back in the Glory of the Father who is a Spirit. Because Christ is a Spirit too.

Quote from: DaveRC on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:29:15

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:21:23

Quote from: DaveRC on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 18:35:32

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 05:25:43

Quote from: DaveRC on Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 18:20:48
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

What Glory did Jesus possess and share with His Father before the world was, and did it include the Father`s attributes?

Are you seeking an answer or just testing the rest of us?  Do you believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus is one of the Trinity, existing for all eternity past and future, or not?  Do you believe Jesus when He said, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) ?

Glory of the flesh?

Or Glory of the Spirit as God and Christ  are a Spirit before the earth was even conceived?

What Glory did Christ possess before the earth was conceived,  flesh or Spirit?

Jesus was not flesh before the creation of the world [universe].  He wasn't flesh before He was born the child of Eve. Jesus isn't flesh now.

That is exactly the point I am making and presents a strong case for preterism,  as futurism and premillennialism teach Christ is coming back bodily in a physical body but He really came back in the Glory of the Father who is a Spirit. Because Christ is a Spirit too.

The fact that preterism sees the return of Jesus in spiritual form isn't any case for preterism.  God, the Father, is Spirit.  God, the Holy Spirit, is Spirit.  Jesus the Son, is Spirit.  The fact that Jesus the Son was also in human form for about thirty years about two thousand years ago changes nothing about His being Spirit.  That doesn't say much of anything about preterism.  All it says is that futurism and premillennialism, to the extent that both claim a physical bodily return of Jesus, are wrong.

Quote from: DaveRC on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 05:14:58What Glory is Jesus speaking in John 7:39? Hint: Acts 2:32-36!

Since you are not speaking very plainly concerning exactly what you want others to believe, then we must assume you mean that Jesus had a fleshly body before he was conceived by the power of the Highest.This is heresy IF that is what you are insinuating by the scriptural references you have used.

QuoteSee,  Jesus had a Glory long before he became a man

Very simple~it simply means that he was God in his divine nature, and means nothing more than this. We say this based upon many scriptures throughout the Old and NT.

QuoteIsaiah 9:6~"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

and....

QuoteJohn 10:30~"I and my Father are one"

In their Divine nature as the God who inhabited eternity from everlasting and shall to everlasting....the "Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"...

QuoteRomans 9:5 in part~"Christ....., who is over all, God blessed for ever". Amen.

Quote from: DaveRC on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:29:15That is exactly the point I am making and presents a strong case for preterism,  as futurism and premillennialism teach Christ is coming back bodily in a physical body but He really came back in the Glory of the Father who is a Spirit. Because Christ is a Spirit too.

Before his incarnation, he was indeed One with God, yet it is also true that there is a glorified MAN in heaven, and in like fashion as he left, SO SHALL HE COME AGAIN.

QuoteActs 1:9-11~"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Again:

Quote1st Timothy 2:5~"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

There IS a man in heaven highly exalted! He was raised bodily from the grave and in that very body, he now sits at God's right hand (or the highest place a man can be exalted to) waiting for God to make his enemies his footstool, as he makes intercessions for his people while they are separating from him.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:21:23He wasn't flesh before He was born the child of Eve

4WD, did you mean to say "He wasn't flesh before He was born the child of Mary" and not Eve? Surely you did. There is a big difference between the two.

Quote from: RB on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 07:11:45

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:21:23He wasn't flesh before He was born the child of Eve

4WD, did you mean to say "He wasn't flesh before He was born the child of Mary" and not Eve? Surely you did. There is a big difference between the two.

Yes, sorry.  Stupid mistake. He was descended from Eve through Mary.  But you are correct; He was born of Mary, not Eve.  He was only descended from Eve as all humans are.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 07:19:24Yes, sorry.  Stupid mistake. He was descended from Eve through Mary.  But you are correct; He was born of Mary, not Eve.  He was only descended from Eve as all humans are.

I thought so. I knew you understood that truth.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:37:52

Quote from: DaveRC on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:29:15

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 23, 2017 - 06:21:23

Quote from: DaveRC on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 18:35:32

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 21, 2017 - 05:25:43

Quote from: DaveRC on Fri Jan 20, 2017 - 18:20:48
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What is Christ imploring or prophecying here?

What Glory did Jesus possess and share with His Father before the world was, and did it include the Father`s attributes?

Are you seeking an answer or just testing the rest of us?  Do you believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus is one of the Trinity, existing for all eternity past and future, or not?  Do you believe Jesus when He said, "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) ?

Glory of the flesh?

Or Glory of the Spirit as God and Christ  are a Spirit before the earth was even conceived?

What Glory did Christ possess before the earth was conceived,  flesh or Spirit?

Jesus was not flesh before the creation of the world [universe].  He wasn't flesh before He was born the child of Eve. Jesus isn't flesh now.

That is exactly the point I am making and presents a strong case for preterism,  as futurism and premillennialism teach Christ is coming back bodily in a physical body but He really came back in the Glory of the Father who is a Spirit. Because Christ is a Spirit too.

The fact that preterism sees the return of Jesus in spiritual form isn't any case for preterism.  God, the Father, is Spirit.  God, the Holy Spirit, is Spirit.  Jesus the Son, is Spirit.  The fact that Jesus the Son was also in human form for about thirty years about two thousand years ago changes nothing about His being Spirit.  That doesn't say much of anything about preterism.  All it says is that futurism and premillennialism, to the extent that both claim a physical bodily return of Jesus, are wrong.

No,  as a preterist I believe Christ returned to his eternal state before the human race was created.

Yet the  futurist and premillennial view hold Christ will return  bodily and physically to reign on a physical throne in physical Jerusalem.


Here are truths I hold:

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God (this includes resurrected flesh and blood). 1 Cor.  15:50

The kingdom of God does not come with observation or visibly.  Luke 17:20-21

The kingdom of God is  not of this world. John 18:36

The increase of the kingdom of God shall never cease.  Isa. 9:7, Isa.  65:23-24, Isa.  66:22

The church age is a world without end.  Eph.  3:21

Our ETERNAL inheritance is heaven (not earth) where there are no marriages anymore.  1 Peter 1:4 & Matthew 22:30

Christ left in clouds of Glory and returned in clouds of Glory. Dan.  2:44 & Dan.  7:13-14

Quote from: DaveRC on Wed Jan 25, 2017 - 17:55:25No,  as a preterist I believe Christ returned to his eternal state before the human race was created.

Preterism is a lie through and through on many doctrines, with maybe a few exceptions~but so what, rat poison is 98% corn meal ~of course you cannot buy it anymore because of the super liberals twisted minds of so-called 21st-century advanced educated spirits that think they have it all figured out~these self-promoters and God rejecters that makes up the majority this world's population. They believe a "pig is a rat is a boy"~as far as their intrinsic worth to our society. If you believe I'm overstating what many believe then read: 

Quotehttp://remnantculture.com/1027-a-rat-is-a-pig-is-a-dog-is-a-boy-human-exceptionalism-vs-animal-rights

So what if Preterism stumbles across a truth once in awhile, 98 % poison is why we must reject this devilish system. So let us see if what you say you believe is true or a lie.

Quoteas a preterist I believe Christ returned to his eternal state before the human race was created.

Red highlight is mine to point out your error. Before creation, there was not anything that Christ needed to return back to. Before the foundation of the earth and all worlds, there was ONLY God who is a Spirit that inhabited eternity ALONE. He alone is the beginning and the end of all things....and all that is in between! There was NO other Spirit/Gods but Jehovah. Jehovah is his name, God is his title. Jesus Christ was a complex person as we all confess, or at least should. As the Christ, he in his Divine nature was the I AM THAT I AM, without any qualifications. Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God, begotten by the power of the Highest in the miracle of conception in the womb of a young Jewish virgin woman named Mary around two thousand years ago. BEFORE that miraculous conception and birth, The eternal God did not have a Son. Besides Luke chapter one, there is no other record of the conception and birth of the Son of God. This being said, your confess doctrine is seriously lacking biblical support and should be rejected as false.

QuoteYet the  futurist and premillennial view hold Christ will return  bodily and physically to reign on a physical throne in physical Jerusalem.

I'm a futurist Amill idealist and believe the scriptures that Jesus Christ will return just as he left this world in his resurrected BODY. He arose from the dead in his glorified body that has the FLESHY appearance of a man based on scriptures.

QuoteJohn 20:15~"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away".

That resurrected body that looked like a man is the same body (maybe in a different form which obviously the glorified bodies will have the power to do~Mark 16:12) that ascended into the heavens, and as promised by the angels shall come like manner~Acts 1:9-11.

Quoteon a physical throne in physical Jerusalem.

That he will not do, for he's NOW reigning over the tabernacle of David, waiting till God makes his enemies his footstool. King David was king way before he ever reigned literally in Jerusalem over Israel. So one this one small point we can agree.

QuoteFlesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God (this includes resurrected flesh and blood). 1 Cor.  15:50

Our glorified resurrected bodies will not need blood to give it life~saints will have eternal life with powerful glorified bodies, that can just think to be somewhere and they will be THERE. They can appear and then disappear as they need to do so. We shall at times SIT DOWN in God's eternal kingdom in the new earth and heavens and enjoy fellowship with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, above ALL with Jesus, with a pleasure that far exceeds any pitiful pleasures one may have enjoyed in this present life, NAME IT, and it come infinitely short of that world to come in pleasure.

QuoteThe kingdom of God does not come with observation or visibly.  Luke 17:20-21

You do not understand what Christ meant by saying what he did. The kingdom of God that the Pharisees believed in was a great military deliverance as David gave them in the OT, with that observation it would not come. The kingdom of God HAD COME, it was within them, or WITHIN THIER VERY MIST in the person of its king, Jesus Christ, yet they did not spiritually observed this great truth, but rejected him and killed him. Nevertheless, the world to come WILL COME with great pomp and show. Read Daniel 7-12.

QuoteDaniel 7:27~"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

QuoteThe kingdom of God is  not of this world. John 18:36

Agreed, in its final and fullest sense this is true.

QuoteThe church age is a world without end.  Eph.  3:21

The church or God's called out ones shall indeed abide forever, for they have been given eternal life, yet those scriptures are grossly misused by you to support a false doctrine by denying a future resurrection of our body of sin and death. This present life as we know it, shall one day perish with fire which btw is WHERE the lake of fire will be! Yet God has promised us a new heaven and a new earth called in the scriptures the world to COME.

QuoteOur ETERNAL inheritance is heaven (not earth) where there are no marriages anymore.  1 Peter 1:4 & Matthew 22:30

For this inheritance is prepared, laid up, and secured in the hands or Christ who is in heaven, and we shall not marry in the world to come but shall be like the angels of heaven who are not given to marriage. Yet this does not cancel out the promises of God that we shall indeed inherit a new earth and new heavens.

QuoteChrist left in clouds of Glory and returned in clouds of Glory. Dan.  2:44 & Dan.  7:13-14

First, there's not one thing in those scriptures about supporting your doctrine that Christ has ALREADY returned; secondly, It is true that God sat up a kingdom during the first coming of Christ and he was exalted as Lord and Christ at his resurrection, yet the fulfillment of him taking over the world visibly with his people a ruling with him and all of his enemies being destroyed has NOT yet been fulfilled.

Quote1st Corinthians 15:19-28~"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Our David has not yet entered into New Jerusalem (God's glorified church)  and sit down and reign world without end with NO MORE enemies to destroy.

Quote from: RB on Thu Jan 26, 2017 - 05:00:39

Quote from: DaveRC on Wed Jan 25, 2017 - 17:55:25No,  as a preterist I believe Christ returned to his eternal state before the human race was created.

Preterism is a lie through and through on many doctrines, with maybe a few exceptions~but so what, rat poison is 98% corn meal ~of course you cannot buy it anymore because of the super liberals twisted minds of so-called 21st-century advanced educated spirits that think they have it all figured out~these self-promoters and God rejecters that makes up the majority this world's population. They believe a "pig is a rat is a boy"~as far as their intrinsic worth to our society. If you believe I'm overstating what many believe then read: 

Quotehttp://remnantculture.com/1027-a-rat-is-a-pig-is-a-dog-is-a-boy-human-exceptionalism-vs-animal-rights

So what if Preterism stumbles across a truth once in awhile, 98 % poison is why we must reject this devilish system. So let us see if what you say you believe is true or a lie.

Quoteas a preterist I believe Christ returned to his eternal state before the human race was created.

Red highlight is mine to point out your error. Before creation, there was not anything that Christ needed to return back to. Before the foundation of the earth and all worlds, there was ONLY God who is a Spirit that inhabited eternity ALONE. He alone is the beginning and the end of all things....and all that is in between! There was NO other Spirit/Gods but Jehovah. Jehovah is his name, God is his title. Jesus Christ was a complex person as we all confess, or at least should. As the Christ, he in his Divine nature was the I AM THAT I AM, without any qualifications. Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God, begotten by the power of the Highest in the miracle of conception in the womb of a young Jewish virgin woman named Mary around two thousand years ago. BEFORE that miraculous conception and birth, The eternal God did not have a Son. Besides Luke chapter one, there is no other record of the conception and birth of the Son of God. This being said, your confess doctrine is seriously lacking biblical support and should be rejected as false.

QuoteYet the  futurist and premillennial view hold Christ will return  bodily and physically to reign on a physical throne in physical Jerusalem.

I'm a futurist Amill idealist and believe the scriptures that Jesus Christ will return just as he left this world in his resurrected BODY. He arose from the dead in his glorified body that has the FLESHY appearance of a man based on scriptures.

QuoteJohn 20:15~"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away".

That resurrected body that looked like a man is the same body (maybe in a different form which obviously the glorified bodies will have the power to do~Mark 16:12) that ascended into the heavens, and as promised by the angels shall come like manner~Acts 1:9-11.

Quoteon a physical throne in physical Jerusalem.

That he will not do, for he's NOW reigning over the tabernacle of David, waiting till God makes his enemies his footstool. King David was king way before he ever reigned literally in Jerusalem over Israel. So one this one small point we can agree.

QuoteFlesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God (this includes resurrected flesh and blood). 1 Cor.  15:50

Our glorified resurrected bodies will not need blood to give it life~saints will have eternal life with powerful glorified bodies, that can just think to be somewhere and they will be THERE. They can appear and then disappear as they need to do so. We shall at times SIT DOWN in God's eternal kingdom in the new earth and heavens and enjoy fellowship with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, above ALL with Jesus, with a pleasure that far exceeds any pitiful pleasures one may have enjoyed in this present life, NAME IT, and it come infinitely short of that world to come in pleasure.

QuoteThe kingdom of God does not come with observation or visibly.  Luke 17:20-21

You do not understand what Christ meant by saying what he did. The kingdom of God that the Pharisees believed in was a great military deliverance as David gave them in the OT, with that observation it would not come. The kingdom of God HAD COME, it was within them, or WITHIN THIER VERY MIST in the person of its king, Jesus Christ, yet they did not spiritually observed this great truth, but rejected him and killed him. Nevertheless, the world to come WILL COME with great pomp and show. Read Daniel 7-12.

QuoteDaniel 7:27~"And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

QuoteThe kingdom of God is  not of this world. John 18:36

Agreed, in its final and fullest sense this is true.

QuoteThe church age is a world without end.  Eph.  3:21

The church or God's called out ones shall indeed abide forever, for they have been given eternal life, yet those scriptures are grossly misused by you to support a false doctrine by denying a future resurrection of our body of sin and death. This present life as we know it, shall one day perish with fire which btw is WHERE the lake of fire will be! Yet God has promised us a new heaven and a new earth called in the scriptures the world to COME.

QuoteOur ETERNAL inheritance is heaven (not earth) where there are no marriages anymore.  1 Peter 1:4 & Matthew 22:30

For this inheritance is prepared, laid up, and secured in the hands or Christ who is in heaven, and we shall not marry in the world to come but shall be like the angels of heaven who are not given to marriage. Yet this does not cancel out the promises of God that we shall indeed inherit a new earth and new heavens.

QuoteChrist left in clouds of Glory and returned in clouds of Glory. Dan.  2:44 & Dan.  7:13-14

First, there's not one thing in those scriptures about supporting your doctrine that Christ has ALREADY returned; secondly, It is true that God sat up a kingdom during the first coming of Christ and he was exalted as Lord and Christ at his resurrection, yet the fulfillment of him taking over the world visibly with his people a ruling with him and all of his enemies being destroyed has NOT yet been fulfilled.

Quote1st Corinthians 15:19-28~"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Our David has not yet entered into New Jerusalem (God's glorified church)  and sit down and reign world without end with NO MORE enemies to destroy.

Earth,  moon,  and sun will never perish. Numerous scriptures emphatically states this:

Psalms 72:7,17
Psalms 78:69
Psalms 89:36-37
Psalms 93:1
Psalms 96:10
Psalms 104:5
Psalms 148:4-6
Ecclesiastes 1:4

You`re under a false pretense.

Was the heaven and earth destroyed when the Babylonians conquered the Pharoah  - Ezekiel 32:7-11?

Did Egypt`s dead fill every valley and pile as high as every mountain and did Egypt`s blood fill every mountain and river - Isaiah 32:5-6?


Was the heaven and earth destroyed when the Medo-Persians conquered Babylon - Isaiah 13:13-17?

Was the heaven and earth destroyed when Edom was overthrown - Isaiah 34:4-5?

Was Edom`s streams and land turned to burning pitch,  never to be quenched and smoking forever and ever - Isaiah 34:9-10 (see Isaiah 34:7,11-15 for your answer)?



Remember Jesus said, that nothing of the law would not pass  til heaven and earth passed away - Matthew 5:17-18.

Heaven and earth was the Old Covenant Age,  when God delivered the Israelites from Egypt and gave them His Law,  that is when God planted the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth - Isaiah 51:15-16 (KJV renders this passage best).

Have you ever read about the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 65:17-25?

Why are people still dying - Isaiah 65:20?

Why are still sinners - Isaiah 65:20 (see also Matthew 12:32 & Revelation 22:15)?

Why are people still building and planting - Isaiah 65:21-22?

Why are people still being born  - Isaiah 65:23 (c.f. Matthew 22:30)?

Why are people still praying - Isaiah 65:24?

Have you read about the new heavens and new earth in Isaiah 66:19-24?

Why are people still evangelizing - Isaiah 66:19-21?

Why are people still being born -  Isaiah 66:22 (c.f. Matthew 22:30)?

Why are there still dead bodies (death) - Isaiah 66:24?

Have you read about the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21-22?

Why do the nations still need to be healed (eat the leaves  of the tree  of Life just  as we eat the bread of and drink the blood of Christ) - Revelation 22:2?

Why are there still sinners - Revelation 22:15?

The only heaven and earth that will be destroyed is the Old Covenant Age,  Isaiah 51:15-16 (again I love this passage best in the KJV).

Jesus said that there will both sin and unforgivable sin in the age to come - Matthew 12:32.

Bible prophecies have a flair for the dramatic and exaggerated symbolism.

What's most important are the New Testament`s IMMINENT time statements -  Deuteronomy 18:22!

Daniel 12:1-7 informs us when the resurrection occurs,  it occurs when the Old Covenant Age is destroyed.

The resurrection (Daniel 12:2) is one of the wonders spoken of in Daniel 12:6-7.

The Greek word for resurrection means to rise again or stand again. 

The Old Covenant Age  also called the Law and the Prophets can't  pass away until all of it is fulfilled which includes its own PROPHESIED passing too - Deuteronomy 32:29,35-36,43; Matthew 5:17-18; & Hebrews 8:13.