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Quote from: Amo on Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.

The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:

Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>

What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.

May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?

1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.

6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"

7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'

8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.

9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:

And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?

Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week? 

Quote from: Michael2012 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 - 00:41:14

Quote from: Amo on Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.

The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:

Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>

What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.

May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?

1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.

6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"

7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'

8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.

9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:

And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?

Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?

The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.

Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.  16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Mar 18, 2017 - 15:05:42

Quote from: Michael2012 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 - 00:41:14

Quote from: Amo on Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.

The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:

Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>

What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.

May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?

1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.

6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"

7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'

8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.

9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:

And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?

Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?

The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.

Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.  16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Amo,

Apparently you have not answered most of my questions as listed below. But if you have, I'm sorry, I don't quite get what they are. So, if you are kind enough, can you please first give a direct answer and if needed, you can go on and explain it.

1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)

2.  Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)

3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath?

4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?

I'll be commenting on the rest of what you posted and on your reply to this at the same time. And so, please be kind enough to answer my simple questions. Thanks.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Mar 19, 2017 - 10:33:22

Quote from: Amo on Sat Mar 18, 2017 - 15:05:42

Quote from: Michael2012 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 - 00:41:14

Quote from: Amo on Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.

The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:

Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>

What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.

May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?

1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.

6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"

7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'

8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.

9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:

And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?

Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?

The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.

Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.  16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Amo,

Apparently you have not answered most of my questions as listed below. But if you have, I'm sorry, I don't quite get what they are. So, if you are kind enough, can you please first give a direct answer and if needed, you can go on and explain it.

1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)

2.  Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)

3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath?

4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?

I'll be commenting on the rest of what you posted and on your reply to this at the same time. And so, please be kind enough to answer my simple questions. Thanks.

If you have a point to make, please make it. The ten commandments are God's commandments, just as the Sabbath is God's Sabbath. He calls both His many times over in scripture. God's commandments are for God's people. They are not for all the nations, since many nations do not claim to be His people. The New testament addresses many of the changes made concerning the laws given specifically to Israel, but it never addresses changes in the ten commandments. To the contrary, it repeatedly tells believers to keep God's commandments. Jesus Christ Himself when here as one of us made it perfectly clear that He did not come to change the commandments of God, and that they would not change until heaven and earth passed. Anyone who teaches otherwise contradicts the plain testimony of Jesus Christ who is the WORD OF GOD, King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Quote from: Amo on Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 20:45:35

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Mar 19, 2017 - 10:33:22

Quote from: Amo on Sat Mar 18, 2017 - 15:05:42

Quote from: Michael2012 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 - 00:41:14

Quote from: Amo on Tue Mar 14, 2017 - 21:04:15
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

None of the ten commandments are addressed in the second chapter of Colossians. The ten commandments are not shadows of anything, we are admonished to keep them from one end of scripture to the other. The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out. Those who wish to place Paul's testimony in opposition to Christ's, claim he was speaking of the fourth commandment in the verses under examination.

The following verses are examples of the ceremonial sabbaths Israel was to keep that were separate from the sabbath of the fourth commandment. these are the sabbaths referred to by Paul in Col. 2.

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. 32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:

Leviticus 23:23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord......................
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath. 33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,....................
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord. 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>

What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.

May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?

1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.

6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"

7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'

8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.

9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:

And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?

Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?

The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.

Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.  16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Amo,

Apparently you have not answered most of my questions as listed below. But if you have, I'm sorry, I don't quite get what they are. So, if you are kind enough, can you please first give a direct answer and if needed, you can go on and explain it.

1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)

2.  Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)

3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath?

4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?

I'll be commenting on the rest of what you posted and on your reply to this at the same time. And so, please be kind enough to answer my simple questions. Thanks.

If you have a point to make, please make it. The ten commandments are God's commandments, just as the Sabbath is God's Sabbath. He calls both His many times over in scripture. God's commandments are for God's people. They are not for all the nations, since many nations do not claim to be His people. The New testament addresses many of the changes made concerning the laws given specifically to Israel, but it never addresses changes in the ten commandments. To the contrary, it repeatedly tells believers to keep God's commandments. Jesus Christ Himself when here as one of us made it perfectly clear that He did not come to change the commandments of God, and that they would not change until heaven and earth passed. Anyone who teaches otherwise contradicts the plain testimony of Jesus Christ who is the WORD OF GOD, King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Amo, it seems that you don't get the point of my questions. Let me try to bring them out here:

<<1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)>>

The commandments that are referred to here are here quoted:

Quote1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.

6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"

7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'

8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.

9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:

These are commandments of God and not of man. They are God's commandments to the Jews, the Israelites. They were not given to the Gentiles nor to the Christians.

<<2.  Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)>>

The ten commandments were given by God to the nation of Israel as testified by scriptures. It is not to all nations of the world.

You said and I quote:

QuoteThe seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall.

Please cite scriptures that speaks of the seventh day Sabbath was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall so I can examine it.

<<3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? >>

If there is any, I'd like to examine it as well.

<<4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week? [/b]>>

Here are the scriptures I know:

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

The ten commandments are for all who would be God's people in Christ Jesus, as the scriptures clearly point out. As the nation of Israel was also. Every sacrifice they offered represented their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The laws pertaining to the literal nation of Israel itself though, are another story. The New testament needs to be studied by all, to draw their proper conclusions regarding the same. The ceremonial laws pertaining to the temple and sacrifices are obviously no more, accepting perhaps their spiritual application, referred to on occasion by Paul. Other laws are also addressed in the NT.

The first day of the week in scripture is just that, the first day of the week. This is all it is ever called in scripture, because the writers of the NT gave the day no special significance or title to attribute to it. These things only developed later.

In response to sabbath day 4 th commandment
To rest and reflect on our future home in heaven when the curse of Adams work with sweat and labor will finally be lifted...
What is the meaning behind sabbath....
Hebrews 4:10-11
Ceased from labor is to enter into the rest of the great High Priest. JEsus knowing that He attoned for our sins....
Older saints ....my papa would keep sabbath strictly on Sunday...also there were laws 1800 s that forbid work on sundays
Did many things days... Change when roman constantine voted to have Christianity as romes religion???
Yes
Was saturday worship substitued at this time in 300ad for sunday worship??? Probably
Also easter substitute for passover...feast days
Many other things including the Shema ....dueteronomy 6:4
Here o Israel the Lord your God is one
Quoted every sbbath in synagoge..but not emphasized as much in gentile churches...that ther is 1 God
When the Jews were cut off around 100 ad because of there lack of faith we lost many things....
Romans 11:23.  They can and will be grafted in again
Ephesians 2:20. The foundation was with the Jewish apstles and prophets
Gentiles have lost our original founders and with that many of their gifts and teachings over the last 1900 years........
At some time 10 gentiles will look to a Jew as their leaders again....zachariah 8:23
Also paul warns gentiles not to think that we are superior to jews and that we are not the root...and if we continue in pride God may cut us off also....romans 11:18-21
We can see europe is turning into paganism..because anti semtism abounds in europe even today....
and if we in America dont repent and pray for our Jewish brothers to be grafted back in we may also be cut off........
In conclusion i do not believe gentiles will be complete or unified until the Jews are grafted back in and resume their rightful position as the foudational leaders in the Church...
When the Jews are retored to Messiah many of these teachings will also be retored nd made clear......

Quote from: AmoThe first day of the week in scripture is just that, the first day of the week. This is all it is ever called in scripture, because the writers of the NT gave the day no special significance or title to attribute to it. These things only developed later.

And St. Justin the martyr [circa 150 AD] simply called it by its pagan name Sunday (no doubt because he was writing to the Roman government who were pagans at the time), attributing to it no special name or title. He does, however, attribute to it the special significance that it holds for Christians, and why they worship corporately together on it:

Quote from: St. Justin the martyr's First Apology, Chapter 67And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Quote from: DMA on Fri Apr 07, 2017 - 10:48:07

Quote from: AmoThe first day of the week in scripture is just that, the first day of the week. This is all it is ever called in scripture, because the writers of the NT gave the day no special significance or title to attribute to it. These things only developed later.

And St. Justin the martyr [circa 150 AD] simply called it by its pagan name Sunday (no doubt because he was writing to the Roman government who were pagans at the time), attributing to it no special name or title. He does, however, attribute to it the special significance that it holds for Christians, and why they worship corporately together on it:

Quote from: St. Justin the martyr's First Apology, Chapter 67And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Yes, exactly as I have stated, scripture does not address Sunday sacredness because it did not develop until the apostles were gone. Sunday sacredness did not come to us through Christ or the apostles, but through some claiming to represent them after they were gone. Some continued to exalt the day according to the claimed authority of those who proposed it as the true church of Christ, others apposed it as contradicting scripture. The latter grew larger in number and eventually forced their own views upon all by law as they did many other things as well. This all being against the living example and teachings of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Let all who wish to do so follow Justin. I will follow the living example of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His teachings along with those of the apostles.

Quote from: AmoLet all who wish to do so follow Justin. I will follow the living example of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His teachings along with those of the apostles.

You're mistaken Amo. St. Justin wasn't espousing a new teaching as though he were trying to get followers for himself. He was describing the mode of worship of the Church to the pagan Roman government he was writing to that was actively hunting Christians down to kill them. What St. Justin relates here is the normal daily and weekly practice of the Church. St. Justin isn't making any of this up. He's telling the truth about the Church that he was baptized, chrismated and communed into. Notice what he says regarding Christian baptism:

Quote from: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology (circa 150 AD), Chapter 61
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. (Isaiah 1:16-20)

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

See how he uses the word "we" and not "I" to describe these things? He indicates that this is common Christian understanding and practice regarding baptism. This is the teaching and practice of the Church. Notice what he says about the worship of the Church:

Quote from: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology (circa 150 AD), Chapters 65,66,67
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [literally Eucharist, meaning Thanksgiving], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood (Luke 22:19-20); and gave it to them alone...And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

See how he merely relates what the Church does? See how he isn't giving his own teachings here? St. Justin isn't interested in obtaining followers for himself as though he thought of himself as the Savior. On the contrary, he is simply telling a murderous pagan government what Christians actually believe and do, and that there is no justifiable reason why they should be persecuted and killed.

Quote from: AmoSunday sacredness did not come to us through Christ or the apostles, but through some claiming to represent them after they were gone.

St. Justin didn't claim that Sunday was sacred. He simply explained why Christians hold their common assembly on that day, namely because of the sacredness of God beginning His creative work on that day, and the sacredness of the Lord Jesus Christ rising from the dead on the same day. Traditionally speaking, Christians like St. Justin didn't think that the day Sunday was anymore holy than any other day. That's why you can search the Christian writings of the first centuries and not find a single reference to Sunday sacredness. What they believed was that there are holy events such as the Resurrection of Christ, which is of course the most holy event, and that meeting together on Sunday, the day it happened on, to commemorate it with the Eucharist (i.e. the Thanksgiving) was an appropriate thing to do. The Christians of St. Justin's time, much like today, would meet multiple times a week as they were able. We see this taught in the book of Acts:

Quote from: Acts 2:41-47Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

And we see it taught in the Didache (literally Teaching, an early Christian document used for teaching):

Quote from: Didache, Chapter 4And you shall seek out day by day the faces of the saints, in order that you may rest upon their words.

But since most were not able to meet daily, due to life's concerns, they would all attempt to meet together on a common day. And that day was Sunday for the reasons already given. This wasn't to say that the early Christians believed that Sunday was a Christian sabbath, which they certainly didn't. What they understood about the sabbath is something else entirely. They simply saw Sunday as an appropriate day to meet corporately upon due to them being Christians, i.e. followers of Jesus Christ whose holy and glorious resurrection occurred on that day. After all, without the resurrection of Christ from the dead there would be no Christian faith at all! In short, the Church of St. Justin's day did not consider Sunday to be any kind of replacement for the sabbath. And while there have been some individuals throughout the Church's life that have taught this (unfortunately), the Church, properly speaking, never has.

Quote from: DMA on Tue Apr 11, 2017 - 11:06:57

Quote from: AmoLet all who wish to do so follow Justin. I will follow the living example of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and His teachings along with those of the apostles.

You're mistaken Amo. St. Justin wasn't espousing a new teaching as though he were trying to get followers for himself. He was describing the mode of worship of the Church to the pagan Roman government he was writing to that was actively hunting Christians down to kill them. What St. Justin relates here is the normal daily and weekly practice of the Church. St. Justin isn't making any of this up. He's telling the truth about the Church that he was baptized, chrismated and communed into. Notice what he says regarding Christian baptism:

Quote from: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology (circa 150 AD), Chapter 61
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. (Isaiah 1:16-20)

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

See how he uses the word "we" and not "I" to describe these things? He indicates that this is common Christian understanding and practice regarding baptism. This is the teaching and practice of the Church. Notice what he says about the worship of the Church:

Quote from: St. Justin the Martyr, First Apology (circa 150 AD), Chapters 65,66,67
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [literally Eucharist, meaning Thanksgiving], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood (Luke 22:19-20); and gave it to them alone...And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

See how he merely relates what the Church does? See how he isn't giving his own teachings here? St. Justin isn't interested in obtaining followers for himself as though he thought of himself as the Savior. On the contrary, he is simply telling a murderous pagan government what Christians actually believe and do, and that there is no justifiable reason why they should be persecuted and killed.

Quote from: AmoSunday sacredness did not come to us through Christ or the apostles, but through some claiming to represent them after they were gone.

St. Justin didn't claim that Sunday was sacred. He simply explained why Christians hold their common assembly on that day, namely because of the sacredness of God beginning His creative work on that day, and the sacredness of the Lord Jesus Christ rising from the dead on the same day. Traditionally speaking, Christians like St. Justin didn't think that the day Sunday was anymore holy than any other day. That's why you can search the Christian writings of the first centuries and not find a single reference to Sunday sacredness. What they believed was that there are holy events such as the Resurrection of Christ, which is of course the most holy event, and that meeting together on Sunday, the day it happened on, to commemorate it with the Eucharist (i.e. the Thanksgiving) was an appropriate thing to do. The Christians of St. Justin's time, much like today, would meet multiple times a week as they were able. We see this taught in the book of Acts:

Quote from: Acts 2:41-47Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

And we see it taught in the Didache (literally Teaching, an early Christian document used for teaching):

Quote from: Didache, Chapter 4And you shall seek out day by day the faces of the saints, in order that you may rest upon their words.

But since most were not able to meet daily, due to life's concerns, they would all attempt to meet together on a common day. And that day was Sunday for the reasons already given. This wasn't to say that the early Christians believed that Sunday was a Christian sabbath, which they certainly didn't. What they understood about the sabbath is something else entirely. They simply saw Sunday as an appropriate day to meet corporately upon due to them being Christians, i.e. followers of Jesus Christ whose holy and glorious resurrection occurred on that day. After all, without the resurrection of Christ from the dead there would be no Christian faith at all! In short, the Church of St. Justin's day did not consider Sunday to be any kind of replacement for the sabbath. And while there have been some individuals throughout the Church's life that have taught this (unfortunately), the Church, properly speaking, never has.

The problem with your above argument, is that the seventh day Sabbath was observed and continued to be observed by many Christians for centuries after Justin. He was not expressing the views or practices of many Christians of his time who also considered themselves the "church". While he may be one of your church fathers, I certainly do not consider him to be one. I am in agreement with those Christians who continued to keep the seventh day Sabbath as exemplified by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and according to His teachings as well. You are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture. From what I have read written by Justin, he didn't seem to be very knowledgeable concerning the scriptures. The following quote presents a different view from Justin's held by Christians of old. I base my belief upon the scriptures though, rather than their testimony.



THE RECITAL OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, AND AFTER WHAT MANNER THEY DO HERE PRESCRIBE TO US


XXXVI. Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God, — to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or daemons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands. Reject every unlawful lust, everything destructive to men, and all anger. Honor thy parents, as the authors of thy being. Love thy neighbor as thyself. Communicate the necessaries of-life to the needy. Avoid swearing falsely, and swearing often, and in vain; for thou shalt not be held guiltless. Do not appear before the priests empty, and offer thy free-will offerings continually.
ts a different view from Christians of long ago. I do not base my beliefs upon their statement though, but rather upon the scriptures themselves.

Quote from: CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, Book 2, Section 4Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

You quote the Apostolic Constitutions as though to show that it contradicts St. Justin's view of the sabbath. It doesn't! Read the above quote slowly, Amo. It says to observe the sabbath by meditation of the law, not in the idleness of the hands, i.e. by abstaining from work. This in no way supports your erroneous teaching of the sabbath and fully supports Justin's since he was never contrary to the meditation of the law, just of the legal requirement of not doing any work on the day.

And as for you thinking that St. Justin wasn't really knowledgeable of the scriptures, I'm sure you say that about everyone you disagree with. So nothing new there. I'd recommend that you read his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, as he does an admirable job of refuting the Jewish, and by extension the Adventist, arguments for the observance of the sabbath from the Old Testament alone. I'd recommend it, but you certainly wouldn't get anything out of it. At least, not in your present state of mind.

Quote from: AmoYou are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture.

Here's a possibility you likely won't entertain:  Perhaps they're not placing St. Paul above or in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ at all. Perhaps you perceive a contradiction because it is you, and not them, that is misreading and misunderstanding the Lord Jesus. After all, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when He spoke of them destroying the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. They were certain about His teaching. You also seem certain about His teaching. Perhaps you're mistaken about His teaching as they were.

Like I said, it's a possibility that you likely won't entertain, but it's a possibility nonetheless.

Quote from: DMA on Mon Apr 17, 2017 - 14:35:36

Quote from: CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, Book 2, Section 4Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

You quote the Apostolic Constitutions as though to show that it contradicts St. Justin's view of the sabbath. It doesn't! Read the above quote slowly, Amo. It says to observe the sabbath by meditation of the law, not in the idleness of the hands, i.e. by abstaining from work. This in no way supports your erroneous teaching of the sabbath and fully supports Justin's since he was never contrary to the meditation of the law, just of the legal requirement of not doing any work on the day.

And as for you thinking that St. Justin wasn't really knowledgeable of the scriptures, I'm sure you say that about everyone you disagree with. So nothing new there. I'd recommend that you read his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, as he does an admirable job of refuting the Jewish, and by extension the Adventist, arguments for the observance of the sabbath from the Old Testament alone. I'd recommend it, but you certainly wouldn't get anything out of it. At least, not in your present state of mind.

Yes, I understand your reading comprehension problems. You simply don't want to see what is plainly there when it doesn't support your argument. The quote begins with a command to observe the Sabbath which you are arguing no longer needs to be observed, and then refers to creation in relation to observing that command, which you have been arguing has nothing to do with the fourth commandment. None of which makes any sense, save for those who blatantly reject the plain testimony of scripture to begin with.

I have, and have read Justin's dialogue with Trypho the Jew. The reading of which is where I determined that Justin was apparently not very familiar with scripture. I have addressed this specific issue on these boards already in the past. I will find those posts, and repost them when I do.

Quote from: DMA on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 07:45:24

Quote from: AmoYou are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture.

Here's a possibility you likely won't entertain:  Perhaps they're not placing St. Paul above or in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ at all. Perhaps you perceive a contradiction because it is you, and not them, that is misreading and misunderstanding the Lord Jesus. After all, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when He spoke of them destroying the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. They were certain about His teaching. You also seem certain about His teaching. Perhaps you're mistaken about His teaching as they were.

Like I said, it's a possibility that you likely won't entertain, but it's a possibility nonetheless.

Anything is a possibility. Of course the fact that you are the one who absolutely will not look certain words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the face and ever address them, is highly suggestive that you must ignore the same in order to continue believing as you do. That being the case, it seems more likely that one who chooses to completely ignore certain testimonies of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, would also be the one who incorrectly understand His testimony. So let's try this again. Please explain the following words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ relating to the commandments of God, and the fourth commandment which you redefined apart from scripture.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/sabbath-sunday-and-the-abomination-of-desolation/15/

I worship God every day. What makes Sunday special? Or not?

Quote from: Amo on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 11:12:42

Quote from: DMA on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 07:45:24

Quote from: AmoYou are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture.

Here's a possibility you likely won't entertain:  Perhaps they're not placing St. Paul above or in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ at all. Perhaps you perceive a contradiction because it is you, and not them, that is misreading and misunderstanding the Lord Jesus. After all, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when He spoke of them destroying the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. They were certain about His teaching. You also seem certain about His teaching. Perhaps you're mistaken about His teaching as they were.

Like I said, it's a possibility that you likely won't entertain, but it's a possibility nonetheless.

Anything is a possibility. Of course the fact that you are the one who absolutely will not look certain words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the face and ever address them, is highly suggestive that you must ignore the same in order to continue believing as you do. That being the case, it seems more likely that one who chooses to completely ignore certain testimonies of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, would also be the one who incorrectly understand His testimony. So let's try this again. Please explain the following words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ relating to the commandments of God, and the fourth commandment which you redefined apart from scripture.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In the scriptures you cited, I'd like to take you to verse 19 which saysWhosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It speaks of being in the Kingdom of heaven. Now what can you say of them who are called the least in the kingdom of heaven and of them who are called great in the kingdom of heaven? 

Amo, I have been reading this back and forth discussion with DMA and I must say that he has done an excellent job at meeting all of your points and you my friend have been on the on the defensive side way too much with very little AMMO~ 

I was referring to this thread:

Quotehttp://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/worshipping-god-on-sunday/

Amo,

I have posted sometime here and I think I have to post it again here and specifically address it to you, in as much as I think the matter of days such as of the Sunday worship or the Sabbath day has been an issue for you. Apparently, the matter of the Sabbath have successfully been placed on you by someone to be a stumblingblock to you. Here's what I've posted:

Quote
I think that this matter should not really be an issue, in the same sense that any matter as such with regards the flesh, as with food and drinks, or respect of days (including sabbath days), etc., should not be an issue.

So, I'd say that we should not judge one another on such matters, as with regards this matter of Sabbath days. Consider this scriptures: Rom. 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.   

After Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian.  Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.

Consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".

Having said that, one must be quick to note, that this is not saying that the Christian is not to fulfill the law. For in this regard, the scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 05:39:08

Quote from: Amo on Sat Apr 22, 2017 - 11:12:42

Quote from: DMA on Tue Apr 18, 2017 - 07:45:24

Quote from: AmoYou are obviously in agreement with those who went the way of Justin, and today use the writings of Paul as above and in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ recorded in scripture.

Here's a possibility you likely won't entertain:  Perhaps they're not placing St. Paul above or in contradiction to the plain testimony of Jesus Christ at all. Perhaps you perceive a contradiction because it is you, and not them, that is misreading and misunderstanding the Lord Jesus. After all, the Jews misunderstood Jesus when He spoke of them destroying the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. They were certain about His teaching. You also seem certain about His teaching. Perhaps you're mistaken about His teaching as they were.

Like I said, it's a possibility that you likely won't entertain, but it's a possibility nonetheless.

Anything is a possibility. Of course the fact that you are the one who absolutely will not look certain words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the face and ever address them, is highly suggestive that you must ignore the same in order to continue believing as you do. That being the case, it seems more likely that one who chooses to completely ignore certain testimonies of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, would also be the one who incorrectly understand His testimony. So let's try this again. Please explain the following words of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ relating to the commandments of God, and the fourth commandment which you redefined apart from scripture.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In the scriptures you cited, I'd like to take you to verse 19 which saysWhosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It speaks of being in the Kingdom of heaven. Now what can you say of them who are called the least in the kingdom of heaven and of them who are called great in the kingdom of heaven?

It speaks of who will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, and who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven, not who is in heaven.

Quote from: RB on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 05:58:33
Amo, I have been reading this back and forth discussion with DMA and I must say that he has done an excellent job at meeting all of your points and you my friend have been on the on the defensive side way too much with very little AMMO~ 

I was referring to this thread:

Quotehttp://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/worshipping-god-on-sunday/

You are of course entitled to your opinion. In every debate, argument, or war, there is an offense and a defense. Neither is any indication of who is right or wrong. When one is attacked, they are on defense. When one is attacking, they are on offense. That is all. Either suits me just fine, and every Christian should be prepared to do both.

If you believe DMA is a good arguer, perhaps it is so. If you believe he or she is speaking or defending biblical truth, you are simply deceived as he or she is.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 07:38:10
Amo,

I have posted sometime here and I think I have to post it again here and specifically address it to you, in as much as I think the matter of days such as of the Sunday worship or the Sabbath day has been an issue for you. Apparently, the matter of the Sabbath have successfully been placed on you by someone to be a stumblingblock to you. Here's what I've posted:

Quote
I think that this matter should not really be an issue, in the same sense that any matter as such with regards the flesh, as with food and drinks, or respect of days (including sabbath days), etc., should not be an issue.

So, I'd say that we should not judge one another on such matters, as with regards this matter of Sabbath days. Consider this scriptures: Rom. 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.   

After Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian.  Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.

Consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".

Having said that, one must be quick to note, that this is not saying that the Christian is not to fulfill the law. For in this regard, the scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.

Yes I know many think it should not be an issue. They are wrong as you are. God's commandments are an issue that every single soul will deal with at judgment when they stand directly in front of Him to answer for their beliefs, witness, and actions directly in relation to them. May God have mercy upon our souls and enlighten our clouded minds. The Sabbath of God has been an issue with God's people and their enemies from within and without unquestionably since Israel and no doubt before. It was an issue within Christianity from the very beginning, has continued to be an issue all throughout it's history, and will continue to be an issue to the very end. It will not go away but only increase in intensity. It will become a deciding factor in the final division of this worlds' crops before the Lord returns to harvest the same.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The commandments of God and the difference between those who keep them and those who do not will be a major issue before Christ returns to reap the harvests of the earth.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 07:38:10
Amo,

I have posted sometime here and I think I have to post it again here and specifically address it to you, in as much as I think the matter of days such as of the Sunday worship or the Sabbath day has been an issue for you. Apparently, the matter of the Sabbath have successfully been placed on you by someone to be a stumblingblock to you. Here's what I've posted:

Quote
I think that this matter should not really be an issue, in the same sense that any matter as such with regards the flesh, as with food and drinks, or respect of days (including sabbath days), etc., should not be an issue.

So, I'd say that we should not judge one another on such matters, as with regards this matter of Sabbath days. Consider this scriptures: Rom. 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.   

After Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian.  Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.

Consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".

Having said that, one must be quick to note, that this is not saying that the Christian is not to fulfill the law. For in this regard, the scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.

If it wasn't and should not be an issue, then there should not have been, nor should there be right now so very many Sunday laws on the books and enforced around the world. Not to mention the many efforts under way right now to bring them back in many places they have been removed. If you want to deny an issue taking place right in front of your face, go for it. I will not.

Amo, before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.   

Do you agree with all that I said there?

Amo, after Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian.  Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.

Do you agree with all that I said there?

Amo, consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".

Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law of Moses?
Do you not agree that the law of Moses includes the law on the Sabbath?
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law, but under grace?

The scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.[/quote]
[/quote]

Do you not agree with that?

Do you agree that Love is the fulfilling of the law, which includes the ten commandments?

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 09:53:16
Amo, before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.   

Do you agree with all that I said there?

Amo, after Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian.  Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.

Do you agree with all that I said there?

Amo, consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".

Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law of Moses?
Do you not agree that the law of Moses includes the law on the Sabbath?
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law, but under grace?

The scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.

[/quote]

Do you not agree with that?

Do you agree that Love is the fulfilling of the law, which includes the ten commandments?
[/quote]

It gets somewhat tiresome addressing the exact same questions over and over and over again. Give me a little time, I'll find some of the very numerous posts I have already posted addressing these very same issues, and re post them here for you.

Quote from: AmoThe quote begins with a command to observe the Sabbath

It does speak of observing the sabbath, but not in the same way Seventh-day Adventists talk about it. Notice again what it says:

Quote from: CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, Book 2, Section 4it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

In other words, what is being enjoined here is the contemplation of the scriptures and the Gospel of Christ, not of cessation of work as Adventists maintain is the keeping of the sabbath. This quote in no way supports your position. And it certainly isn't contrary to anything St. Justin said as he was never averse to the meditation of scripture. The fact is the Church has never taught Christians to keep the sabbath according to how the Seventh-day Adventists teach others to keep it by abstaining from work on that day. The Church has understood from the beginning that Christians are not under the law but under grace, as St. Paul taught. Try as you might, you won't find a single instance where the Church taught Christians otherwise.

Quote from: DMA on Mon Apr 24, 2017 - 13:27:50

Quote from: AmoThe quote begins with a command to observe the Sabbath

It does speak of observing the sabbath, but not in the same way Seventh-day Adventists talk about it. Notice again what it says:

Quote from: CONSTITUTIONS OF THE HOLY APOSTLES, Book 2, Section 4it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.[/b][/u]

In other words, what is being enjoined here is the contemplation of the scriptures and the Gospel of Christ, not of cessation of work as Adventists maintain is the keeping of the sabbath. This quote in no way supports your position. And it certainly isn't contrary to anything St. Justin said as he was never averse to the meditation of scripture. The fact is the Church has never taught Christians to keep the sabbath according to how the Seventh-day Adventists teach others to keep it by abstaining from work on that day. The Church has understood from the beginning that Christians are not under the law but under grace, as St. Paul taught. Try as you might, you won't find a single instance where the Church taught Christians otherwise.

"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of England divine)

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.

"The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.

"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.

"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.

"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the    Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p.163 London 1640.

"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.

"For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 10:26:08

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 - 09:53:16
Amo, before Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews being those said to be under the Mosaic Law, and the Gentiles, being those who are not. The Jews are in covenant with God which includes the keeping of the Sabbath as written in the book of Moses. Now, the Jews and the Gentiles are two separate people, the Jew, being God's covenant people, and the Gentiles, as scriptures speak of them, are aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. Thus, we can see an obvious difference between the two peoples in this regard, even so, a separation, even having an enmity, because of the covenants.   

Do you agree with all that I said there?

Amo, after Christ's death and resurrection, we have the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Christian.  Now, the Christian is whom God had created in Christ Jesus, so that he is a new man, whether he is of the Gentiles or of the Jews. He belongs to the body of Christ, and of the household of God.

Do you agree with all that I said there?

Amo, consider what the scriptures says regarding the Christians, with regards their former person (Jew and Gentile, even the enmity that is between the two), and what Christ have done about this.

Ephesians 2:14-16
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Having laid that out, here's what scriptures say to the Christian with regards the issue you bring up on the Sabbath.

Colossians 2:13-16
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

We can clearly see that the Christian is not under the law of Moses, which includes even the Sabbath. Paul even have clearly stated "ye are not under the law, but under grace".

Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law of Moses?
Do you not agree that the law of Moses includes the law on the Sabbath?
Do you not agree that the Christian is not under the law, but under grace?

The scriptures says "all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". Love is the fulfilling of the law.

Do you not agree with that?

Do you agree that Love is the fulfilling of the law, which includes the ten commandments?
[/quote]

It gets somewhat tiresome addressing the exact same questions over and over and over again. Give me a little time, I'll find some of the very numerous posts I have already posted addressing these very same issues, and re post them here for you.
[/quote]

I'll wait then. Thanks.

Quote from: Amo"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of England divine)

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.

"The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.

"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.

"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.

"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the    Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p.163 London 1640.

"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.

"For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

And yet not one of those quotes you provided says that the Christians kept the sabbath in the way the Seventh-day Adventists believe it should be kept, i.e by doing no work on it. The Church has never had a problem with worshipping God on Saturday by having the liturgy on that day. You won't find anything contrary to that. What you will find in the Church's teaching is the condemnation of those who teach, like the Seventh-day Adventists, that Christians must keep the sabbath by doing no work on it as the law says or they're committing grave sin by doing so. This is called Judaizing, and it is condemned as heresy. None of the above quotes portray a Judaizing Church. They simply show a Church that respects the sabbath by worshipping God on Saturday.

I'll save you the time and effort and tell you that you won't find anything in the life and practice of the Church to support your Adventist doctrine of the sabbath. The Church, which received its doctrine from the Apostles, just isn't a Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Quote from: DMA on Tue Apr 25, 2017 - 05:26:31

Quote from: Amo"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;..therefore the Christians for a long time together, did keep their conventions on the Sabbath, in which some portion of the Law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." The Whole Works of Jeremey Taylor, Vol. IX, p416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol.XII, p.416)

"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and did spend the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to that purpose." Dialogues on the Lord's Day. p.189. London: 1701. By Dr. T. H. Morer.(church of England divine)

"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East Church) three hundred years after the Saviour's death." A learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p.77.

"The seventh-day Sabbath was.. solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in a manner quite abolish the observation of it." Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp.33,34,44.

"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the Law, not for idleness of the hands." The Anti-Nicene Fathers, Vol.7, p 413, From Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, A document of the 3rd and 4th centuries.

"It was the practice generally of the Easterne Churches; and some churches of the west..For in the church of Millaine [Milan];.. it seemes the Saturday was held in farre esteeme ..Not that the Easterne churches, or any of the rest which observed that day, were inclined to Iudaisme [Judaism]; but that they came together on the Sabbath day, to worship Iesus [Jesus] Christ the Lord of the Sabbath." History of the Sabbath (original Spelling retained) Part 2, par. 5, pp. 73,74, London: 1636, Dr. Heylyn.

"The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day..It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival..Athanasius likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, Epiphanius says the same." Antiquities of the    Christian Church, Vol. II, Book XX, chap. 3, Sec. 1, 66.1137, 1138

"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observation of the Jew's Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it. Sunday a Sabbath, John Ley, p.163 London 1640.

"Ambrose, the celebrated bishop of Milan, said that when he was in Milan he observed Saturday, but when in Rome observed Sunday. This gave rise to the proverb 'When you are in Rome, do as Rome does,' " Heylyn, The History of the Sabbath, 1613

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church." Ancient Christianity Exemplified, Lyman Coleman, Ch.26, sec. 2, p.527.

"For although almost all Churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word "Sabbath" It says : "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called 'the Sabbath' by the ancient Fathers and historians." Sacrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

And yet not one of those quotes you provided says that the Christians kept the sabbath in the way the Seventh-day Adventists believe it should be kept, i.e by doing no work on it. The Church has never had a problem with worshipping God on Saturday by having the liturgy on that day. You won't find anything contrary to that. What you will find in the Church's teaching is the condemnation of those who teach, like the Seventh-day Adventists, that Christians must keep the sabbath by doing no work on it as the law says or they're committing grave sin by doing so. This is called Judaizing, and it is condemned as heresy. None of the above quotes portray a Judaizing Church. They simply show a Church that respects the sabbath by worshipping God on Saturday.

I'll save you the time and effort and tell you that you won't find anything in the life and practice of the Church to support your Adventist doctrine of the sabbath. The Church, which received its doctrine from the Apostles, just isn't a Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Seventh day Adventist don't even agree on how it should be kept. You have no idea whatsoever how all the Christians of the past observed the seventh day Sabbath. No doubt, many observed it according to the commandment, and others in varying degrees as apostasy increased. The very fact that many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing, reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop. Neither Christ nor the apostles discouraged anyone from keeping the Sabbath. This came about through the great apostasy.

Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin, whose writings constitute our major source of information for the first half of the second century, witnessed and participated in the process of separation from Judaism which led the majority of the Christians to abandon the Sabbath and adopt Sunday as the new day of worship. Their testimonies therefore, coming from such an early period, assume a vital importance for our inquiry into the causes of the origin of Sunday observance  (Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University- FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY:  A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY -Chapter 7 -ANTI-JUDAISM AND THE ORIGIN OF SUNDAY)

"Until well into the second century we do not find the slightest indication in our sources that Christians marked Sunday by any kind of abstention from work."--W. Rordorf, Sunday, p. 157.


North African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought."--J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.

"Cults of the sun, as we know from many sources, had attained great vogue during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Sun-worshipers indeed formed one of the big groups in that religious world in which Christianity was fighting for a place. Many of them became converts to Christianity . . . Worshipers in St. Peter's turned away from the altar and faced the door so that they could adore the rising sun."--Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, p. 192. [Dr. Laing(1869-1945) was a Canadian-born university professor and later dean at the University of Chicago].

It was the Roman Imperial plan on several occasions, to unite all religions of the Empire into one religion--sun-worship: "The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration."--Henry Hart Milman, The History of Christianity, bk. 2, chap. 8 (Vol. II, p. 175). [Dr. Milman (1791-1868) was an important historian of England and dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London].


Though Sunday is mentioned in so many different ways during the second century, it is not till we come almost to the close of the second century that we find the first; instance in which it is called "Lord's day." Clement, of Alexandria, A.D. 194, uses this title with reference to "the eighth day." If he speaks of a natural day, he no doubt means Sunday. It is not certain, however, that he speaks of a natural day, for his explanation gives to the term an entirely different sense. THE HISTORY OF THE SABBATH by J.N. Andrews page 160

Tertullian, A.D. 200, is the next writer who uses the term "Lord's day." He
defines his meaning, and fixes the name upon the day of Christ's resurrection. Kitto says this is "the earliest authentic instance" in which the name is thus applied, and we have proved this true by actual examination of every writer, unless the reader can discover some reference to Sunday in Clement's mystical eighth day. Id  page 162

Origen, A.D. 231, is the third of the ancient writers who call "the eighth day" the Lord's day. He was the disciple of Clement, the first writer who makes this application. It is not strange, therefore, that he should teach Clement's doctrine of a perpetual Lord's day, nor that he should state it even more distinctly than did Clement himself. Origen, having represented Paul as teaching that all days are alike, continues thus: — "If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are accustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord's day, the Preparation, the Passover, or the Pentecost, I have to answer, that to the perfect Christian, who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word, all his days are the Lord's, and he is always keeping the Lord's day."  Against Celsus, book 8, chap. 29; Testimony of the Fathers, p. 87.  Id page 165


The "Lord's day" of the Catholic church can be traced no nearer to John than A.D. 194, or perhaps, in strict truth, to A.D. 200, and those who then use the name show plainly that they did not believe it to be the Lord's day by apostolic appointment. To hide these fatal facts by seeming to trace the title back to Ignatius; the disciple of John, and thus to identify Sunday with the Lord's day of that apostle, a series of remarkable frauds has been committed, which we have had occasion to examine. But even could the Sunday Lord's day be traced to Ignatius, the disciple of John, it would then come no nearer being an apostolic institution than does the Catholic festival of the Passover, which can be traced to Polycarp, another of John's disciples, who claimed to have received it from John himself! Id pages 166and 167.

"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday. Perhaps at the end of the second century a false application of this kind had begun to take place; for men appear by that time to have considered laboring on Sunday as a sin." Neander's Church History, translated by H. J. Rose, p. 186.

The following is taken from The Great Empires of Prophecy by A. T. Jones. Pages 349-351 and 357-359.


" The next step in addition to this was the adoption of the day of the sun as a festival day. To such an extent were the forms of sun-worship practised in this apostasy, that before the close of the second century the heathen themselves charged these so-called Christians with worshiping the sun. A presbyter of the church of Carthage, then and now one of the "church fathers," who wrote about A.D. 200, considered it necessary to make a defense of the practice, which he did to the following effect in an address to the rulers and magistrates of the Roman Empire: — "Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer. But you, many of you, also under pretense sometimes of worshiping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sunday to rejoicing, from a far different reason than sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant." — Tertullian "Apology," chap. 16.

And again in an address to all the heathen he justifies this practice by the argument, in effect, You do the same thing, you originated it too, therefore you have no right to blame us. In his own words his defense is as follows: —

"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray toward the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies, likewise move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day, as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and
banqueting." — Tertullian "Ad Nationes," book 1, chap. 13.

This accommodation was easily made, and all this practice was easily justified, by the perverse-minded teachers, in the perversion of such scriptures as, "The Lord God is a sun and shield," and, "Unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings." F456 As this custom spread, and through it such disciples were multiplied, the ambition of the bishop of Rome grew apace. It was in honor of the day of the sun that there was manifested the first attempt of the bishop of Rome to compel the obedience of all other bishops, and the fact that this attempt was made in such a cause, at the very time when these pretended Christians were openly accused by the heathen of worshiping the sun, is strongly suggestive.

From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, —
the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday — the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as un like the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at
Absolutism......................................................

"Accordingly, after having taken the advice of some foreign bishops, he wrote an imperious letter to the Asiatic prelates commanding them to imitate the example of the Western Christians with respect to the time of celebrating the festival of Easter. The Asiatics answered this lordly requisition by the pen of Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, who declared in their name, with great spirit and resolution, that they would by no means depart in this manner from the custom handed down to them by their ancestors. Upon this the thunder of excommunication began to roar. Victor, exasperated by this resolute answer of the Asiatic bishops, broke communion with them, pronounced them unworthy of the name of his brethren, and excluded them from all fellowship with the church of Rome."
— Mosheim "Ecclesiastical History," century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 11. Maclaine's
Translation................................................................


While this effort was being made on the side of philosophy to unite all religions, there was at the same time a like effort on the side of politics. It was the ambition of Elagabalus (A.D. 218-222) to make the worship of the sun supersede all other worship in Rome. It is further related of him that a more ambitious scheme even than this was in the emperor's mind; which was nothing less than the blending of all religions into one, of which "the sun was to be the central object of adoration." — Milman "History of Christianity"  book 2, chap. 8, par. 22.  But the elements were not yet fully prepared for such a fusion. Also the shortness of the reign of Elagabalus prevented any decided advancement toward success.

Alexander Severus (A.D. 222-225) held to the same idea, and carried it into effect so far as his individual practice was concerned. "The mother of Alexander Severus, the able, perhaps crafty and rapacious, Mammaea, had at least held intercourse with the Christians of Syria. She had conversed with the celebrated Origen, and listened to his exhortations, if without conversion, still not without respect. Alexander, though he had neither the religious education, the pontifical character, nor the dissolute manners of his predecessor, was a Syrian, with no hereditary attachment to the Roman form of paganism. He seems to have affected a kind of universalism: he paid decent respect to the gods of the Capitol; he held in honor the Egyptian worship, and enlarged the temples of His and Serapis. In his own palace, with respectful indifference, he enshrined, as it were, as his household deities, the representatives of the different religions or theophilosophic systems which were prevalent in the Roman Empire, — Orpheus, Abraham, Christ, and Apollonius of Tyana.... The homage of Alexander Severus may be a fair test of the general sentiment of the more intelligent heathen of his time." — Milman Id., book 2, chap. 8, par. 24. His reign also was too short to accomplish anything beyond his own individual example. But the same tendency went rapidly forward. On the side of philosophy and the apostasy, the progress was continuous and rapid."Heathenism, as interpreted by philosophy, almost found favor with some of the more moderate Christian apologists.... The Christians endeavored to enlist the earlier philosophers in their cause; they were scarcely content with asserting that the nobler Grecian philosophy might be designed to prepare the human mind for the reception of Christianity; they were almost inclined to endow these sages with a kind of prophetic foreknowledge of its more mysterious doctrines. 'I have explained,' says the Christian in Minucius Felix, 'the opinions of almost all the philosophers, whose most illustrious glory it is that they have worshiped one God, though under various names; so that one might suppose either that the Christians of the present day are philosophers, or that the philosophers of old were already Christians.' "These advances on the part of Christianity were more than met by paganism. The heathen religion, which prevailed at least among the more enlightened pagans during this period,... was almost as different from that of the older Greeks and Romans, or even that which prevailed at the commencement of the empire, as it was from Christianity.... On the great elementary principle of Christianity, the unity of the supreme God, this approximation had long been silently made. Celsus, in his celebrated controversy with Origen, asserts that this philosophical notion of the Deity is perfectly reconcilable with paganism." — Milman Id., par. 28."

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantinebeing consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council. It was given about 16 years after Constantine's first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato"--shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ['anathema,'--excommunicated] from Christ."--Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.


"Modern Christians who talk of keeping Sunday as a 'holy' day, as in the still extant 'Blue Laws,' of colonial America, should know that as a 'holy' day of rest and cessation from labor and amusements Sunday was unknown to Jesus . . . It formed no tenet [teaching] of the primitive Church and became 'sacred' only in the course of time. Outside the Church its observance was legalized for the Roman Empire through a series of decrees starting with the famous one of Constantine in 321, an edict due to his political and social ideas."--W, W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 257.

"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.


"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.

"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261.


"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god. . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.

"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews."--Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, "Adversus Graecorum Calumnias," in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 143. [Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]

As we have already noted, excepting for the Roman and Alexandrian Christians, the majority of Christians were observing the seventh-day Sabbath at least as late as the middle of the fifth century [A.D. 450]. The Roman and Alexandrian Christians were among those converted from heathenism. They began observing Sunday as a merry religious festival in honor of the Lord's resurrection, about the latter half of the second century A.D. However, they did not try to teach that the Lord or His apostles commanded it. In fact, no ecclesiastical writer before Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century even suggested that either Christ or His apostles instituted the observance of the first day of the week.


"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued."--Lyman Coleman, "Ancient Christianity Exemplified" chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.


"What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday."--Huttan Webster, "Rest Days," pp. 122-123, 210.


"A history of the problem shows that in some places, it was really only after some centuries that the Sabbath rest really was entirely abolished, and by that time the practice of observing a bodily rest on the Sunday had taken its place . . . It was the seventh day of the week which typified the rest of God after creation, and not the first day. "--Vincent Jo Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast day Occupations, 1943, pp. 15, 22 [This Catholic University Press publication was written by a priest of the Redemptorist order].

"The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism . . . During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar [sun] worships, especially that of Mithra [Persian sun worship], in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by pagans of dies Solis for dies Saturni, as the first day of the planetary week. Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity."--Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220-221. [Webster (1875-?), was an author, historian, and professor at the University of Nebraska].


"The last day of the week was strictly kept in connection with that of the first day for a long time after the overthrow of the temple and its worship. Down even to the fifth century the Observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued." Coleman  Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chap. 26, sec. 2.

"During the early ages of the church, it was never entitled 'the Sabbath,' this word being confined to the seventh day of the week, the Jewish Sabbath, which, as we have already said, continued to be observed for several centuries by the converts to Christianity." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.

"The observance of the Lord's day was ordered while yet the Sabbath of the Jews was continued; nor was the latter superseded until the former had acquired the same solemnity and importance which belonged, at first, to that great day which God originally ordained and blessed. But in time, after the Lord's day was fully established, the observance of the Sabbath of the Jews was gradually discontinued, and was finally denounced as heretical."  Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.

"The ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East church above three hundred years after our Savior's death; and besides that, no other day for more hundreds of years than I spake of before, was known in the church by the name of Sabbath but that: let the collection thereof and conclusion of all be this: The Sabbath of the seventh day, as touching the alligations of God's solemn worship to time, was ceremonial; that Sabbath was religiously observed in the East church three hundred years and more after our Savior's passion. That church, being the great part of Christendom, and having the apostles' doctrine and example to instruct them, would have restrained it if it had been deadly."  Edward Brerewood, professor in Gresham College, London . Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77, Oxford, 1631.

And Sir Win. Domville says: —
"Centuries of the Christian era passed away before the Sunday was observed by the Christian church as a Sabbath. History does not furnish us with a single proof or indication that it was at any time so observed previous to the Sabbatical edict of Constantine in A.D. 321."  Examination of the Six Texts, p. 291.

"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.

Quote from: AmoSeventh day Adventist don't even agree on how it should be kept.

But Amo, you said to me the following about the 4th commandment:

Quote from: AmoThis isn't rocket science, or some amazingly complex decision or choice. One either observes the above command in and by faith in the word of God or they don't. There is no accidentally observing it, or not observing it. If the issue of this command becomes increasingly cloudy and complex, this is humanities doing, not God's. It is a simple command and issue.

And,

Quote from: Amojust as obvious, rest is rest, and work is work.

If it's so simple and obvious, as you suggest, then why wouldn't the so-called remnant church of God agree on how it should be kept? And if the so-called remnant church can't even agree on how the sabbath should be kept, then perhaps you're in error about it yourself. After all, what makes you right and your fellow Adventists wrong on this? Maybe what I and others on here have been trying to tell you is the truth, but you only think it's a lie because of your own faulty misunderstanding of how the sabbath should be kept by Christians.

Quote from: AmoThe very fact that many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing, reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop.

Many early Sunday laws? What are these "Sunday laws" you speak of? Perhaps Constantine non-religious Sunday law of AD 321? Or perhaps the anti-Judaistic practice of Christians canon promulgated by the council of Laodicea in AD 363-64? What are these "many early Sunday laws" that you speak of that prove the existence of a wide-spread Christian Judaistic observance of the sabbath?

Also, your use of the term "apostate church". I see you're still holding to your erroneous view of 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4, Amo. Question:  How did the Church turn apostate when Jesus promised it wouldn't be overcome by corruption (cf. Matthew 16:18)? Was Jesus wrong, or worse lying about keeping His historic Church free from corruption? Another question:  If St. Paul was speaking of the Church in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, then why didn't he use the Greek word for Church in the entire passage? Something as important as the apostasy of the historic Church, you think he'd specify what he was talking about. Or perhaps he did with the words "temple of God" which you're misinterpreting to be a reference to Christ's historic Church.

Quote from: AmoIgnatius, Barnabas and Justin, whose writings constitute our major source of information for the first half of the second century, witnessed and participated in the process of separation from Judaism which led the majority of the Christians to abandon the Sabbath and adopt Sunday as the new day of worship. Their testimonies therefore, coming from such an early period, assume a vital importance for our inquiry into the causes of the origin of Sunday observance  (Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University- FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY:  A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY -Chapter 7 -ANTI-JUDAISM AND THE ORIGIN OF SUNDAY)

"Until well into the second century we do not find the slightest indication in our sources that Christians marked Sunday by any kind of abstention from work."--W. Rordorf, Sunday, p. 157.


North African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought."--J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.

"Cults of the sun, as we know from many sources, had attained great vogue during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Sun-worshipers indeed formed one of the big groups in that religious world in which Christianity was fighting for a place. Many of them became converts to Christianity . . . Worshipers in St. Peter's turned away from the altar and faced the door so that they could adore the rising sun."--Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, p. 192. [Dr. Laing(1869-1945) was a Canadian-born university professor and later dean at the University of Chicago].

It was the Roman Imperial plan on several occasions, to unite all religions of the Empire into one religion--sun-worship: "The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration."--Henry Hart Milman, The History of Christianity, bk. 2, chap. 8 (Vol. II, p. 175). [Dr. Milman (1791-1868) was an important historian of England and dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London].


Though Sunday is mentioned in so many different ways during the second century, it is not till we come almost to the close of the second century that we find the first; instance in which it is called "Lord's day." Clement, of Alexandria, A.D. 194, uses this title with reference to "the eighth day." If he speaks of a natural day, he no doubt means Sunday. It is not certain, however, that he speaks of a natural day, for his explanation gives to the term an entirely different sense. THE HISTORY OF THE SABBATH by J.N. Andrews page 160

Tertullian, A.D. 200, is the next writer who uses the term "Lord's day." He
defines his meaning, and fixes the name upon the day of Christ's resurrection. Kitto says this is "the earliest authentic instance" in which the name is thus applied, and we have proved this true by actual examination of every writer, unless the reader can discover some reference to Sunday in Clement's mystical eighth day. Id  page 162

Origen, A.D. 231, is the third of the ancient writers who call "the eighth day" the Lord's day. He was the disciple of Clement, the first writer who makes this application. It is not strange, therefore, that he should teach Clement's doctrine of a perpetual Lord's day, nor that he should state it even more distinctly than did Clement himself. Origen, having represented Paul as teaching that all days are alike, continues thus: — "If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are accustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord's day, the Preparation, the Passover, or the Pentecost, I have to answer, that to the perfect Christian, who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word, all his days are the Lord's, and he is always keeping the Lord's day."  Against Celsus, book 8, chap. 29; Testimony of the Fathers, p. 87.  Id page 165


The "Lord's day" of the Catholic church can be traced no nearer to John than A.D. 194, or perhaps, in strict truth, to A.D. 200, and those who then use the name show plainly that they did not believe it to be the Lord's day by apostolic appointment. To hide these fatal facts by seeming to trace the title back to Ignatius; the disciple of John, and thus to identify Sunday with the Lord's day of that apostle, a series of remarkable frauds has been committed, which we have had occasion to examine. But even could the Sunday Lord's day be traced to Ignatius, the disciple of John, it would then come no nearer being an apostolic institution than does the Catholic festival of the Passover, which can be traced to Polycarp, another of John's disciples, who claimed to have received it from John himself! Id pages 166and 167.

"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday. Perhaps at the end of the second century a false application of this kind had begun to take place; for men appear by that time to have considered laboring on Sunday as a sin." Neander's Church History, translated by H. J. Rose, p. 186.

The following is taken from The Great Empires of Prophecy by A. T. Jones. Pages 349-351 and 357-359.


" The next step in addition to this was the adoption of the day of the sun as a festival day. To such an extent were the forms of sun-worship practised in this apostasy, that before the close of the second century the heathen themselves charged these so-called Christians with worshiping the sun. A presbyter of the church of Carthage, then and now one of the "church fathers," who wrote about A.D. 200, considered it necessary to make a defense of the practice, which he did to the following effect in an address to the rulers and magistrates of the Roman Empire: — "Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer. But you, many of you, also under pretense sometimes of worshiping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sunday to rejoicing, from a far different reason than sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant." — Tertullian "Apology," chap. 16.

And again in an address to all the heathen he justifies this practice by the argument, in effect, You do the same thing, you originated it too, therefore you have no right to blame us. In his own words his defense is as follows: —

"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray toward the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies, likewise move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day, as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and
banqueting." — Tertullian "Ad Nationes," book 1, chap. 13.

This accommodation was easily made, and all this practice was easily justified, by the perverse-minded teachers, in the perversion of such scriptures as, "The Lord God is a sun and shield," and, "Unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings." F456 As this custom spread, and through it such disciples were multiplied, the ambition of the bishop of Rome grew apace. It was in honor of the day of the sun that there was manifested the first attempt of the bishop of Rome to compel the obedience of all other bishops, and the fact that this attempt was made in such a cause, at the very time when these pretended Christians were openly accused by the heathen of worshiping the sun, is strongly suggestive.

From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, —
the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday — the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as un like the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at
Absolutism......................................................

"Accordingly, after having taken the advice of some foreign bishops, he wrote an imperious letter to the Asiatic prelates commanding them to imitate the example of the Western Christians with respect to the time of celebrating the festival of Easter. The Asiatics answered this lordly requisition by the pen of Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, who declared in their name, with great spirit and resolution, that they would by no means depart in this manner from the custom handed down to them by their ancestors. Upon this the thunder of excommunication began to roar. Victor, exasperated by this resolute answer of the Asiatic bishops, broke communion with them, pronounced them unworthy of the name of his brethren, and excluded them from all fellowship with the church of Rome."
— Mosheim "Ecclesiastical History," century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 11. Maclaine's
Translation................................................................


While this effort was being made on the side of philosophy to unite all religions, there was at the same time a like effort on the side of politics. It was the ambition of Elagabalus (A.D. 218-222) to make the worship of the sun supersede all other worship in Rome. It is further related of him that a more ambitious scheme even than this was in the emperor's mind; which was nothing less than the blending of all religions into one, of which "the sun was to be the central object of adoration." — Milman "History of Christianity"  book 2, chap. 8, par. 22.  But the elements were not yet fully prepared for such a fusion. Also the shortness of the reign of Elagabalus prevented any decided advancement toward success.

Alexander Severus (A.D. 222-225) held to the same idea, and carried it into effect so far as his individual practice was concerned. "The mother of Alexander Severus, the able, perhaps crafty and rapacious, Mammaea, had at least held intercourse with the Christians of Syria. She had conversed with the celebrated Origen, and listened to his exhortations, if without conversion, still not without respect. Alexander, though he had neither the religious education, the pontifical character, nor the dissolute manners of his predecessor, was a Syrian, with no hereditary attachment to the Roman form of paganism. He seems to have affected a kind of universalism: he paid decent respect to the gods of the Capitol; he held in honor the Egyptian worship, and enlarged the temples of His and Serapis. In his own palace, with respectful indifference, he enshrined, as it were, as his household deities, the representatives of the different religions or theophilosophic systems which were prevalent in the Roman Empire, — Orpheus, Abraham, Christ, and Apollonius of Tyana.... The homage of Alexander Severus may be a fair test of the general sentiment of the more intelligent heathen of his time." — Milman Id., book 2, chap. 8, par. 24. His reign also was too short to accomplish anything beyond his own individual example. But the same tendency went rapidly forward. On the side of philosophy and the apostasy, the progress was continuous and rapid."Heathenism, as interpreted by philosophy, almost found favor with some of the more moderate Christian apologists.... The Christians endeavored to enlist the earlier philosophers in their cause; they were scarcely content with asserting that the nobler Grecian philosophy might be designed to prepare the human mind for the reception of Christianity; they were almost inclined to endow these sages with a kind of prophetic foreknowledge of its more mysterious doctrines. 'I have explained,' says the Christian in Minucius Felix, 'the opinions of almost all the philosophers, whose most illustrious glory it is that they have worshiped one God, though under various names; so that one might suppose either that the Christians of the present day are philosophers, or that the philosophers of old were already Christians.' "These advances on the part of Christianity were more than met by paganism. The heathen religion, which prevailed at least among the more enlightened pagans during this period,... was almost as different from that of the older Greeks and Romans, or even that which prevailed at the commencement of the empire, as it was from Christianity.... On the great elementary principle of Christianity, the unity of the supreme God, this approximation had long been silently made. Celsus, in his celebrated controversy with Origen, asserts that this philosophical notion of the Deity is perfectly reconcilable with paganism." — Milman Id., par. 28."

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantinebeing consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council. It was given about 16 years after Constantine's first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato"--shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ['anathema,'--excommunicated] from Christ."--Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.


"Modern Christians who talk of keeping Sunday as a 'holy' day, as in the still extant 'Blue Laws,' of colonial America, should know that as a 'holy' day of rest and cessation from labor and amusements Sunday was unknown to Jesus . . . It formed no tenet [teaching] of the primitive Church and became 'sacred' only in the course of time. Outside the Church its observance was legalized for the Roman Empire through a series of decrees starting with the famous one of Constantine in 321, an edict due to his political and social ideas."--W, W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 257.

"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.


"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.

"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261.


"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god. . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.

"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews."--Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, "Adversus Graecorum Calumnias," in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 143. [Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]

As we have already noted, excepting for the Roman and Alexandrian Christians, the majority of Christians were observing the seventh-day Sabbath at least as late as the middle of the fifth century [A.D. 450]. The Roman and Alexandrian Christians were among those converted from heathenism. They began observing Sunday as a merry religious festival in honor of the Lord's resurrection, about the latter half of the second century A.D. However, they did not try to teach that the Lord or His apostles commanded it. In fact, no ecclesiastical writer before Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century even suggested that either Christ or His apostles instituted the observance of the first day of the week.


"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued."--Lyman Coleman, "Ancient Christianity Exemplified" chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.


"What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday."--Huttan Webster, "Rest Days," pp. 122-123, 210.


"A history of the problem shows that in some places, it was really only after some centuries that the Sabbath rest really was entirely abolished, and by that time the practice of observing a bodily rest on the Sunday had taken its place . . . It was the seventh day of the week which typified the rest of God after creation, and not the first day. "--Vincent Jo Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast day Occupations, 1943, pp. 15, 22 [This Catholic University Press publication was written by a priest of the Redemptorist order].

"The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism . . . During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar [sun] worships, especially that of Mithra [Persian sun worship], in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by pagans of dies Solis for dies Saturni, as the first day of the planetary week. Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity."--Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220-221. [Webster (1875-?), was an author, historian, and professor at the University of Nebraska].


"The last day of the week was strictly kept in connection with that of the first day for a long time after the overthrow of the temple and its worship. Down even to the fifth century the Observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued." Coleman  Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chap. 26, sec. 2.

"During the early ages of the church, it was never entitled 'the Sabbath,' this word being confined to the seventh day of the week, the Jewish Sabbath, which, as we have already said, continued to be observed for several centuries by the converts to Christianity." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.

"The observance of the Lord's day was ordered while yet the Sabbath of the Jews was continued; nor was the latter superseded until the former had acquired the same solemnity and importance which belonged, at first, to that great day which God originally ordained and blessed. But in time, after the Lord's day was fully established, the observance of the Sabbath of the Jews was gradually discontinued, and was finally denounced as heretical."  Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.

"The ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East church above three hundred years after our Savior's death; and besides that, no other day for more hundreds of years than I spake of before, was known in the church by the name of Sabbath but that: let the collection thereof and conclusion of all be this: The Sabbath of the seventh day, as touching the alligations of God's solemn worship to time, was ceremonial; that Sabbath was religiously observed in the East church three hundred years and more after our Savior's passion. That church, being the great part of Christendom, and having the apostles' doctrine and example to instruct them, would have restrained it if it had been deadly."  Edward Brerewood, professor in Gresham College, London . Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77, Oxford, 1631.

And Sir Win. Domville says: —
"Centuries of the Christian era passed away before the Sunday was observed by the Christian church as a Sabbath. History does not furnish us with a single proof or indication that it was at any time so observed previous to the Sabbatical edict of Constantine in A.D. 321."  Examination of the Six Texts, p. 291.

"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.

And what, pray tell, are all of these quotes meant to prove? Or are we simply supposed to be impressed with your copy and paste abilities?

There are 2 Sabbaths as there are 2 laws...or 2 covenants
an 1.  earthly Sabbath only  vs..  a  2.  heavenly Sabbath

2 Laws or covenants
1 written on tablets of stone...2 corinthians 3:7   ...ministry of death engraved on stones
2  written on the heart by the Spirit....2 corinthians 3:3   by the Spirit of God not on tablets of stone but on...heart

2 sabbaths
1st sabbath -given in the beginnning and kept by Moses and joshua...Hebrews 4:8
   written with ink and stones......2 corinthians 3:6     letter kills but the Spirit gives life
2nd or Last Sabbath - fulfilled in Christ....Matthew 12:8.....for the son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath
  For if Joshua had given them rest he would not have spoken of another day...there remains a Sabbath-rest of the people of God.

If you find Jesus you enter into the rest of God that was prophesied from the beginning......
Hebrews  4:11-12  let us thereefore be diligent to enter that rest.........This is the 2nd sabbath

If you keep the 1st sabbath in the letter and fail to see Christ as the fulfillment you are missing His heavenly rest..
as of the Jews today in umbelief.....

However if you only look to see Jesus as the end of the law and the end of the Sabbath and do not keep the earthly Sabbath you are missing many earthly and Spiritual blessings.....

Romans 7:14   the Law is Spiritual
and theerfore the Law must be Spiritually discerned with Christ as the cornenerstone...

Blessings for keeping the earthly Sabbath
-  gives Spiritual and physical rest
- time to reflect on our heavenly home when the curse of Adam's work is removed
- keeps someone from being a workaholic and gives order in your life
- helps to keep someone from coveting and loving money(that can pull you away from Christ)
- also helps us to renew our faith with our Jewish forefathers...Abraham, Moses,  Paul and Peter

in summary
We should recognize Jesus as the center and fullfillment of the Sabbath
If we do not do this it is vanity to keep the sabbath day and you will become legalistic self-righteous and judgemental.
However if you only see Jesus and don't keep Sabbath you are missing many Spiritual and earthly blessings of peace
and a common bond with our founding fathers.

Quote from: PkbrotherHowever if you only look to see Jesus as the end of the law and the end of the Sabbath and do not keep the earthly Sabbath you are missing many earthly and Spiritual blessings

The blessing of knowing Jesus Christ is the greatest blessing there is. Hear what St. Paul says about the excellency of knowing Christ above all else:

Quote from: Philippians 3:2-11Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! For we are the circumcision (i.e. Jews), who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

St. Paul was a Pharisee who knew the sabbath of the law well, and yet not one mention of it here at all. Why do you think that is? Because compared to knowing the Lord Jesus Christ it is as good as nothing, or as St. Paul says, rubbish. The sabbath rest we enter into with Christ in His death through our baptism, being raised with Him to newness of life, no longer being the slave of sin, but being free to live in righteousness toward God, is the greatest rest there is!

For the sake of clarity, my words and quotes are in blue.

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QuoteChrist's Church is not contained in Jerusalem or any denomination.

Christ's Church started in historic Jerusalem with the historic Apostles on the historic day of Pentecost. Acts chapter 15 describes a historic council being held at the historic Church of Jerusalem with the historic Apostles. Church history shows that the historic Church of Jerusalem has continued until our present day. Why then do you insist that the historic Church of Jerusalem is not Christ's Church? Could it be that it's because you disagree with what that Church teaches? That it doesn't hold to Seventh-day Adventist doctrine? It would seem so. Well Amo, Christ's Church is still there. The gates of hades have not prevailed against her, unless of course you think they have, in which case Jesus wasn't telling the truth. Good luck with that!

The teachings of Christ and His apostles are the standard of authentic Christianity, to which all other teachings must conform or they are false teachings of apostate entities claiming to be Christ's church. The very thing Paul himself warned us was already happening in his day, and would continue to happen after he departed. Even as Jesus testified also. I am a member of the denomination which I believe most closely represents the teachings of Christ and his apostles. I am not saved by my denomination, nor will I remain in it if or when it departs from the faith of Christ and apostles. You simply cling to the same argument the Scribes and Pharisees clung to in Jesus day, which mentality He refuted as a false security pertaining to authenticity.


Jn 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father.[/color] Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Scribes and Pharisees claimed Abraham for their father, you claim to be of the original church which began in Jerusalem. Jesus told the Pharisees that if they were Abraham's children, they would do the works of Abraham. To the contrary though, they sought to kill Him, and eventually did. What church boasts more than any other of being the original, than the Church of Rome? Yet what did she do, but reject the teachings of Christ and His apostles in favor of her own claiming the Holy Spirit as her guide, and go forth murdering all who would not submit to her, in Christ's name. Which included murdering true Christians that would not bow to her usurped authority. Thus crucifying afresh the Son of God through the murder of His true followers. Your reasoning is faulty, and your claims are exactly what those who were and are deceived have and do use to support their lies and despicable intentions. Jesus clearly stated who the father of all such really is. Even if you won't admit you are of the Church of Rome, your use of her tactics and false claims ties you to her. 


Apart from this, Sabbath keeping Christians can make the same claim you do, and other denominations make the same claim as well. It proves absolutely nothing. Conformity to the teachings of Christ and the apostles recorded for us in the New Testament, is the only rule and evidence of authentic Christianity.

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QuoteDo you believe your own points of argument?

Of course I do. I wouldn't be posting them if I didn't.

So, you are testifying that you are not Catholic, or are Catholic but do not agree with the teachings of the church. Is this correct?

Quote

QuoteAre your arguments in agreement with the teachings of your own denomination? If not, why are you a member of that denomination? If so, why don't you just come out and say exactly which denomination you belong to? Is it because knowing such would reveal that your arguments are not in line with your own denomination? Would that not then suggest, that you are trifling with the word of God? Or at the very least do not even believe what your denomination teaches, which denomination you seem to be so proud of and contest is the original and spot on with truth. So what or which is it?

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Such desperation to turn the attention away from the arguments to something else. Classic tactic of those who have no answer to give.

Yet you are the one dodging the questions above by your above accusation. This accusation coming from one who will not even answer the question of what denomination they belong to. Your arguments have already been addressed and proved to be built upon faulty premise. Requiring you to completely ignore certain parts of scripture which do not fit into the parameters of the arguments you present. This is not to mention, that they contradict the testimony of the denomination I am fairly sure you belong to. Since you won't directly answer that question, I suppose we can go another rout. Do you believe the following testimony from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Sunday- fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:[107]
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.[108]

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."[109] Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A day of grace and rest from work
2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

IN BRIEF
2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).
2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 # 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193 "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound . . . to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their amilial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 # 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.

If you do believe the above statement and are Roman Catholic, then your arguments are not in line with your church's teachings. You are either arguing things you yourself do not even believe, or you reject the teachings of your own denomination. Which is it?

If you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic, then you are at odds with about a billion people who also claim they are the original Church. Proof positive that such claims are exactly that, just another claim by those subscribing to this or that denomination. Meaningless. It is as I have said, conformance to the teachings of Christ and the apostles is the only certain evidence of authentic Christianity. None of whom ever even addressed anything like what you propose regarding the fourth commandment. These and many other such arguments being developed during and continuing in the great apostasy.

Quote

QuoteSeventh day Adventist don't even agree on how it should be kept.

But Amo, you said to me the following about the 4th commandment:
Quote from: Amo
This isn't rocket science, or some amazingly complex decision or choice. One either observes the above command in and by faith in the word of God or they don't. There is no accidentally observing it, or not observing it. If the issue of this command becomes increasingly cloudy and complex, this is humanities doing, not God's. It is a simple command and issue.

And,
Quote from: Amo
just as obvious, rest is rest, and work is work.
If it's so simple and obvious, as you suggest, then why wouldn't the so-called remnant church of God agree on how it should be kept? And if the so-called remnant church can't even agree on how the sabbath should be kept, then perhaps you're in error about it yourself. After all, what makes you right and your fellow Adventists wrong on this? Maybe what I and others on here have been trying to tell you is the truth, but you only think it's a lie because of your own faulty misunderstanding of how the sabbath should be kept by Christians.

All SDA's pretty much agree that working for a living on the Sabbath is not resting according to the commandment. That still leaves a whole lot to be decided by the individual regarding what one should or should not do on the Sabbath, and opinions vary widely. Each must decide for themselves according to their own understanding and or circumstance. Some must work their normal jobs on Sabbath as well. Doctors, nurses, police, military, and such can't just shut down on Sabbath. These people must work these details out on their own as I did when in the military. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear while perfectly observing the Sabbath that a list of do's and don'ts regarding it is missing the point. The commandment itself does no such thing.

Quote

QuoteThe very fact that many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing, reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop.

Many early Sunday laws? What are these "Sunday laws" you speak of? Perhaps Constantine non-religious Sunday law of AD 321? Or perhaps the anti-Judaistic practice of Christians canon promulgated by the council of Laodicea in AD 363-64? What are these "many early Sunday laws" that you speak of that prove the existence of a wide-spread Christian Judaistic observance of the sabbath?

I don't need or depend upon the laws accusing Sabbath keepers of Judaizing to prove the existence of seventh day Christian Sabbath keepers. It is historical fact, which you simply deny. The laws mentioned though, do reveal that there were still Christian Sabbath keepers when they were given. I don't know how many there were that mentioned Judaizing, that would require some study. Those that I do have readily available though, do again as suggested, reveal that Christians were still observing the seventh day Sabbath when they were passed or declared.


The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)

The above decree put forth by an apostate "Christian" Synod, declares authority to cut people who keep the seventh day Sabbath off from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. Apart from being a blasphemous statement presuming authority which belongs to Christ alone, it reveals that there were Christians still keeping the seventh day Sabbath. These for-runners of the system of anti-Christ were far more guilty of sin in presuming authority to cut people off people from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, than anyone keeping the fourth commandment in their day. The decree reveals the extent of apostasy some "Christians" had reached by the fourth century.

Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?" Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

Here we have the testimony of anti-Christ himself as the leader of the system of anti-Christ still addressing the so called problem of Christians observing the seventh day Sabbath some time between 590 and 604. The following testimony is along the same lines.


 


IN former chapters we have seen that the current of Sabbath history runs full and clear through the Gospels and the book of Acts. Those post-apostolic writings which are assigned the earliest place show no trace of any practice or teaching opposed to the doctrine and practice of Christ and his apostles on this point. The first mention of any form of Sunday-observance, or of no-Sabbathism, appears simultaneously, and in the same man, Justin, about the middle of the second century. These theories, so antagonistic to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, did not and could not appear until the heathen element gained control of the church.

Since the Sabbath was a prominent feature in Judaism, the bitter prejudice which grew up between the heathen and the Jewish elements in the church bore heavily upon it; and when the heathen element gained control of the church, it set about the development of theories and practices which would efface, if possible, this so-called feature of Judaism from the church. The fact that Justin and his successors pressed their no-Sabbath philosophy shows that the Sabbath was yet vigorous in its hold upon the church, even after the Jewish element had been driven out. The strongest weapon with which no-Sabbathism fought the Sabbath during the last half of the second century, and the third, fourth, and fifth centuries, was that the observance of the Sabbath was Judaistic. It is clear that if the Sabbath had died during the new Testament period, as some claim, it could not have been resurrected and restored to such vigor by the Pagan element in the church as to make it necessary for that same element to introduce its no-Sabbath philosophy as a weapon against the Sabbath. The urgency with which no-Sabbathism was pressed from the time of Justin forward shows that the Sabbath had a hold even on Gentile Christians, which could not be broken except by continued appeal to man's natural desires for a weekly festival of "indulgence to the flesh," as Tertullian calls Sunday. Viewed in the light of the philosophy of history, the fact that the Sabbath was so persistently opposed, and at length legislated against, in that portion of the church which had been for several generations under the control of the Gentile Christians, is more than an answer to the assertion that the Sabbath ceased to be observed during the apostolic period.

Another important fact must be remembered here. The authors of no-Sabbathism which began with Justin were men of Pagan rather than Apostolic culture. The doctrine was a residuum of Pagan philosophy. There was a modicum of Christian truth in that part of the theory which some propounded that the true Christian made every day a Sabbath. But that statement is rather a description of certain results in high spiritual culture which can never be attained except through the agency of the Sabbath in lifting men to that high standard. Another element of truth was that the Sabbath should not be kept by idleness, as the Jews were charged with keeping it. But the fundamental misconception lay in teaching that the law was abrogated, that men were free from restraint. These elements of truth gilded the theory to eyes which looked with bitter prejudice on all things associated with Judaism, while the fundamental, practical lawlessness of the theory was regarded as its great merit by the prevailing Paganism. Men whose gods were only enlarged editions of themselves, reveling on Olympus, and delighting in sensuous indulgences, were not ready to embrace the new religion until the rigidness of the Fourth Commandment had been so softened that the Sabbath could be put aside, and a weekly festival put along side of it, and at length in its place. But the facts show that in spite of this abrogation of the Sabbath in the theories of the philosophers, the influence of Apostolic Christianity was so strong that the people continued to keep the Sabbath long after the philosopher had condemned it. Keep in mind the fact that neither the Sunday festival nor the doctrine of no-Sabbathism appear in history until a half century after the time when Uhlhorn says the Western wing of the church was ruptured from the Jewish element, and filled with Pagan converts.

But evidence is not wanting to show that the no-Sabbathism of Justin and his successors was not universally accepted, and that it was opposed by some whose theories were far more apostolic than Justin's philosophic vagaries were. Irenaeus, who was Bishop of Lyons, France, during the latter part of the second century, wrote his noted work Against Heresies about 185 A.D., about twenty years after the death of Justin. He treats the idea that Christ abolished the Sabbath as a heresy, as it was, from the apostolic standpoint. These are his words:

"For the Lord vindicated Abraham's posterity by loosing them from bondage and calling them to salvation, as he did in the case of the woman whom be healed, saying openly to those who had not faith like Abraham, "ye hypocrites, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath-days loose his ox or his ass, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath-days?" It is clear, therefore, that he loosed and vivified those who believed in him as Abraham did, doing nothing contrary to the law when he healed upon the Sabbath-day. For the law did not prohibit men from being healed upon the Sabbaths: [on the contrary,] it even circumcised them upon that day, and gave command that the offices should be performed by the priests for the people; yea it did not disallow the healing even of dumb animals. Both at Siloam and on frequent subsequent occasions, did he perform cures upon the Sabbath; and for this reason many used to resort to him on the Sabbath-days. For the law commanded them to abstain from every servile work, that is from all grasping after wealth which is procured by trading and by other worldly business; but it exhorted them to attend to the exercises of the soul, which consist in reflection, and to addresses of a beneficial kind for their neighbor's benefit. And, therefore, the Lord reproveth those who unjustly blamed him for having healed upon the Sabbath-days. For he did not make void, but fulfilled the law, by performing the offices of the high priest, propitiating God for men, and cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, and himself suffering death, that exiled man might go forth from condemnation, and might return without fear to his own inheritance." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4, chapter 8, Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 5, p. 397.

I'll bet you did not know that Irenaeus refutes your false claims that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment, did you? You quoted him elsewhere. What do you think of his above words, which contradict your testimony, and are much the same as my arguments against your testimony?

QuoteAlso, your use of the term "apostate church". I see you're still holding to your erroneous view of 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4, Amo. Question:  How did the Church turn apostate when Jesus promised it wouldn't be overcome by corruption (cf. Matthew 16:18)? Was Jesus wrong, or worse lying about keeping His historic Church free from corruption?

Of course He wasn't wrong, you just apply His words to the wrong church. His church is composed of those who believe and submit to His teachings, not simply any who claim to be His church. While He taught that His church would not be overcome, He also taught that many would profess His name whom He never knew. That would be those who depart from His teachings, and that of the apostles which do not contradict His teachings.


Jn 12:I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jn 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

QuoteAnother question:  If St. Paul was speaking of the Church in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, then why didn't he use the Greek word for Church in the entire passage? Something as important as the apostasy of the historic Church, you think he'd specify what he was talking about. Or perhaps he did with the words "temple of God" which you're misinterpreting to be a reference to Christ's historic Church.

Why do you always add the word historic to church, which the scriptures never do? The church is unquestionably referred to as the temple of God in the NT. There is no other temple of the NT. You may of course enlighten us, if this is wrong. Please do.

Quote

QuoteIgnatius, Barnabas and Justin, whose writings constitute our major source of information for the first half of the second century, witnessed and participated in the process of separation from Judaism which led the majority of the Christians to abandon the Sabbath and adopt Sunday as the new day of worship. Their testimonies therefore, coming from such an early period, assume a vital importance for our inquiry into the causes of the origin of Sunday observance  (Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University- FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY:  A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY -Chapter 7 -ANTI-JUDAISM AND THE ORIGIN OF SUNDAY)

"Until well into the second century we do not find the slightest indication in our sources that Christians marked Sunday by any kind of abstention from work."--W. Rordorf, Sunday, p. 157.


North African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought."--J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.

"Cults of the sun, as we know from many sources, had attained great vogue during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Sun-worshipers indeed formed one of the big groups in that religious world in which Christianity was fighting for a place. Many of them became converts to Christianity . . . Worshipers in St. Peter's turned away from the altar and faced the door so that they could adore the rising sun."--Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, p. 192. [Dr. Laing(1869-1945) was a Canadian-born university professor and later dean at the University of Chicago].

It was the Roman Imperial plan on several occasions, to unite all religions of the Empire into one religion--sun-worship: "The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration."--Henry Hart Milman, The History of Christianity, bk. 2, chap. 8 (Vol. II, p. 175). [Dr. Milman (1791-1868) was an important historian of England and dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London].


Though Sunday is mentioned in so many different ways during the second century, it is not till we come almost to the close of the second century that we find the first; instance in which it is called "Lord's day." Clement, of Alexandria, A.D. 194, uses this title with reference to "the eighth day." If he speaks of a natural day, he no doubt means Sunday. It is not certain, however, that he speaks of a natural day, for his explanation gives to the term an entirely different sense. THE HISTORY OF THE SABBATH by J.N. Andrews page 160

Tertullian, A.D. 200, is the next writer who uses the term "Lord's day." He
defines his meaning, and fixes the name upon the day of Christ's resurrection. Kitto says this is "the earliest authentic instance" in which the name is thus applied, and we have proved this true by actual examination of every writer, unless the reader can discover some reference to Sunday in Clement's mystical eighth day. Id  page 162

Origen, A.D. 231, is the third of the ancient writers who call "the eighth day" the Lord's day. He was the disciple of Clement, the first writer who makes this application. It is not strange, therefore, that he should teach Clement's doctrine of a perpetual Lord's day, nor that he should state it even more distinctly than did Clement himself. Origen, having represented Paul as teaching that all days are alike, continues thus: — "If it be objected to us on this subject that we ourselves are accustomed to observe certain days, as for example the Lord's day, the Preparation, the Passover, or the Pentecost, I have to answer, that to the perfect Christian, who is ever in his thoughts, words, and deeds serving his natural Lord, God the Word, all his days are the Lord's, and he is always keeping the Lord's day."  Against Celsus, book 8, chap. 29; Testimony of the Fathers, p. 87.  Id page 165


The "Lord's day" of the Catholic church can be traced no nearer to John than A.D. 194, or perhaps, in strict truth, to A.D. 200, and those who then use the name show plainly that they did not believe it to be the Lord's day by apostolic appointment. To hide these fatal facts by seeming to trace the title back to Ignatius; the disciple of John, and thus to identify Sunday with the Lord's day of that apostle, a series of remarkable frauds has been committed, which we have had occasion to examine. But even could the Sunday Lord's day be traced to Ignatius, the disciple of John, it would then come no nearer being an apostolic institution than does the Catholic festival of the Passover, which can be traced to Polycarp, another of John's disciples, who claimed to have received it from John himself! Id pages 166and 167.

"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday. Perhaps at the end of the second century a false application of this kind had begun to take place; for men appear by that time to have considered laboring on Sunday as a sin." Neander's Church History, translated by H. J. Rose, p. 186.

The following is taken from The Great Empires of Prophecy by A. T. Jones. Pages 349-351 and 357-359.


" The next step in addition to this was the adoption of the day of the sun as a festival day. To such an extent were the forms of sun-worship practised in this apostasy, that before the close of the second century the heathen themselves charged these so-called Christians with worshiping the sun. A presbyter of the church of Carthage, then and now one of the "church fathers," who wrote about A.D. 200, considered it necessary to make a defense of the practice, which he did to the following effect in an address to the rulers and magistrates of the Roman Empire: — "Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god. We shall be counted Persians perhaps, though we do not worship the orb of day painted on a piece of linen cloth, having himself everywhere in his own disk. The idea no doubt has originated from our being known to turn to the east in prayer. But you, many of you, also under pretense sometimes of worshiping the heavenly bodies, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise. In the same way, if we devote Sunday to rejoicing, from a far different reason than sun-worship, we have some resemblance to those of you who devote the day of Saturn to ease and luxury, though they too go far away from Jewish ways, of which indeed they are ignorant." — Tertullian "Apology," chap. 16.

And again in an address to all the heathen he justifies this practice by the argument, in effect, You do the same thing, you originated it too, therefore you have no right to blame us. In his own words his defense is as follows: —

"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray toward the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies, likewise move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day, as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and
banqueting." — Tertullian "Ad Nationes," book 1, chap. 13.

This accommodation was easily made, and all this practice was easily justified, by the perverse-minded teachers, in the perversion of such scriptures as, "The Lord God is a sun and shield," and, "Unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings." F456 As this custom spread, and through it such disciples were multiplied, the ambition of the bishop of Rome grew apace. It was in honor of the day of the sun that there was manifested the first attempt of the bishop of Rome to compel the obedience of all other bishops, and the fact that this attempt was made in such a cause, at the very time when these pretended Christians were openly accused by the heathen of worshiping the sun, is strongly suggestive.

From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, —
the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday — the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as un like the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at
Absolutism......................................................

"Accordingly, after having taken the advice of some foreign bishops, he wrote an imperious letter to the Asiatic prelates commanding them to imitate the example of the Western Christians with respect to the time of celebrating the festival of Easter. The Asiatics answered this lordly requisition by the pen of Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, who declared in their name, with great spirit and resolution, that they would by no means depart in this manner from the custom handed down to them by their ancestors. Upon this the thunder of excommunication began to roar. Victor, exasperated by this resolute answer of the Asiatic bishops, broke communion with them, pronounced them unworthy of the name of his brethren, and excluded them from all fellowship with the church of Rome."
— Mosheim "Ecclesiastical History," century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 11. Maclaine's
Translation................................................................


While this effort was being made on the side of philosophy to unite all religions, there was at the same time a like effort on the side of politics. It was the ambition of Elagabalus (A.D. 218-222) to make the worship of the sun supersede all other worship in Rome. It is further related of him that a more ambitious scheme even than this was in the emperor's mind; which was nothing less than the blending of all religions into one, of which "the sun was to be the central object of adoration." — Milman "History of Christianity"  book 2, chap. 8, par. 22.  But the elements were not yet fully prepared for such a fusion. Also the shortness of the reign of Elagabalus prevented any decided advancement toward success.

Alexander Severus (A.D. 222-225) held to the same idea, and carried it into effect so far as his individual practice was concerned. "The mother of Alexander Severus, the able, perhaps crafty and rapacious, Mammaea, had at least held intercourse with the Christians of Syria. She had conversed with the celebrated Origen, and listened to his exhortations, if without conversion, still not without respect. Alexander, though he had neither the religious education, the pontifical character, nor the dissolute manners of his predecessor, was a Syrian, with no hereditary attachment to the Roman form of paganism. He seems to have affected a kind of universalism: he paid decent respect to the gods of the Capitol; he held in honor the Egyptian worship, and enlarged the temples of His and Serapis. In his own palace, with respectful indifference, he enshrined, as it were, as his household deities, the representatives of the different religions or theophilosophic systems which were prevalent in the Roman Empire, — Orpheus, Abraham, Christ, and Apollonius of Tyana.... The homage of Alexander Severus may be a fair test of the general sentiment of the more intelligent heathen of his time." — Milman Id., book 2, chap. 8, par. 24. His reign also was too short to accomplish anything beyond his own individual example. But the same tendency went rapidly forward. On the side of philosophy and the apostasy, the progress was continuous and rapid."Heathenism, as interpreted by philosophy, almost found favor with some of the more moderate Christian apologists.... The Christians endeavored to enlist the earlier philosophers in their cause; they were scarcely content with asserting that the nobler Grecian philosophy might be designed to prepare the human mind for the reception of Christianity; they were almost inclined to endow these sages with a kind of prophetic foreknowledge of its more mysterious doctrines. 'I have explained,' says the Christian in Minucius Felix, 'the opinions of almost all the philosophers, whose most illustrious glory it is that they have worshiped one God, though under various names; so that one might suppose either that the Christians of the present day are philosophers, or that the philosophers of old were already Christians.' "These advances on the part of Christianity were more than met by paganism. The heathen religion, which prevailed at least among the more enlightened pagans during this period,... was almost as different from that of the older Greeks and Romans, or even that which prevailed at the commencement of the empire, as it was from Christianity.... On the great elementary principle of Christianity, the unity of the supreme God, this approximation had long been silently made. Celsus, in his celebrated controversy with Origen, asserts that this philosophical notion of the Deity is perfectly reconcilable with paganism." — Milman Id., par. 28."

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :
"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantinebeing consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884

Here is the first Sunday Law decree of a Christian council. It was given about 16 years after Constantine's first Sunday Law of A.D. 321: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [in the original: "sabbato"--shall not be idle on the Sabbath], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out ['anathema,'--excommunicated] from Christ."--Council of Laodicea, c. A.D. 337, Canon 29, quoted in C.J. Hefele, "A History of the Councils of the Church," Vol. 2, p. 316.


"Modern Christians who talk of keeping Sunday as a 'holy' day, as in the still extant 'Blue Laws,' of colonial America, should know that as a 'holy' day of rest and cessation from labor and amusements Sunday was unknown to Jesus . . . It formed no tenet [teaching] of the primitive Church and became 'sacred' only in the course of time. Outside the Church its observance was legalized for the Roman Empire through a series of decrees starting with the famous one of Constantine in 321, an edict due to his political and social ideas."--W, W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 257.

"The Church made a sacred day of Sunday . . . largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun;--for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance."-- Arthur Weigall, "The Paganism in Our Christianity," 1928, p. 145.


"Remains of the struggle [between the religion of Christianity and the religion of Mithraism] are found in two institutions adopted from its rival by Christianity in the fourth century, the two Mithraic sacred days: December 25, 'dies natalis solis' [birthday of the sun], as the birthday of Jesus,--and Sunday, 'the venerable day of the Sun,' as Constantine called it in his edict of 321."--Walter Woodburn Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," p. 60.

"This [Constantine's Sunday decree of March, 321] is the 'parent' Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments."--Walter W. Hyde, "Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire," 1946, p. 261.


"Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity . . . Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god. . . [so they should now be combined."--H.G. Heggtveit, "illustreret Kirkehistorie," 1895, p. 202.

"If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews."--Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, "Adversus Graecorum Calumnias," in J.P. Migne, "Patrologie," p. 143. [Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]

As we have already noted, excepting for the Roman and Alexandrian Christians, the majority of Christians were observing the seventh-day Sabbath at least as late as the middle of the fifth century [A.D. 450]. The Roman and Alexandrian Christians were among those converted from heathenism. They began observing Sunday as a merry religious festival in honor of the Lord's resurrection, about the latter half of the second century A.D. However, they did not try to teach that the Lord or His apostles commanded it. In fact, no ecclesiastical writer before Eusebius of Caesarea in the fourth century even suggested that either Christ or His apostles instituted the observance of the first day of the week.


"These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week 'the Lord's day.' This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their 'Lord.' "--EM. Chalmers, "How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church," p. 3.

"Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued."--Lyman Coleman, "Ancient Christianity Exemplified" chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.


"What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday."--Huttan Webster, "Rest Days," pp. 122-123, 210.


"A history of the problem shows that in some places, it was really only after some centuries that the Sabbath rest really was entirely abolished, and by that time the practice of observing a bodily rest on the Sunday had taken its place . . . It was the seventh day of the week which typified the rest of God after creation, and not the first day. "--Vincent Jo Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast day Occupations, 1943, pp. 15, 22 [This Catholic University Press publication was written by a priest of the Redemptorist order].

"The early Christians had at first adopted the Jewish seven-day week with its numbered week days, but by the close of the third century A.D. this began to give way to the planetary week; and in the fourth and fifth centuries the pagan designations became generally accepted in the western half of Christendom. The use of the planetary names by Christians attests the growing influence of astrological speculations introduced by converts from paganism . . . During these same centuries the spread of Oriental solar [sun] worships, especially that of Mithra [Persian sun worship], in the Roman world, had already led to the substitution by pagans of dies Solis for dies Saturni, as the first day of the planetary week. Thus gradually a pagan institution was engrafted on Christianity."--Hutton Webster, Rest Days, pp. 220-221. [Webster (1875-?), was an author, historian, and professor at the University of Nebraska].


"The last day of the week was strictly kept in connection with that of the first day for a long time after the overthrow of the temple and its worship. Down even to the fifth century the Observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued." Coleman  Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chap. 26, sec. 2.

"During the early ages of the church, it was never entitled 'the Sabbath,' this word being confined to the seventh day of the week, the Jewish Sabbath, which, as we have already said, continued to be observed for several centuries by the converts to Christianity." Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.

"The observance of the Lord's day was ordered while yet the Sabbath of the Jews was continued; nor was the latter superseded until the former had acquired the same solemnity and importance which belonged, at first, to that great day which God originally ordained and blessed. But in time, after the Lord's day was fully established, the observance of the Sabbath of the Jews was gradually discontinued, and was finally denounced as heretical."  Anc. Christ. Exem., chap. 26, sec. 2.

"The ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed together with the celebration of the Lord's day by the Christians of the East church above three hundred years after our Savior's death; and besides that, no other day for more hundreds of years than I spake of before, was known in the church by the name of Sabbath but that: let the collection thereof and conclusion of all be this: The Sabbath of the seventh day, as touching the alligations of God's solemn worship to time, was ceremonial; that Sabbath was religiously observed in the East church three hundred years and more after our Savior's passion. That church, being the great part of Christendom, and having the apostles' doctrine and example to instruct them, would have restrained it if it had been deadly."  Edward Brerewood, professor in Gresham College, London . Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77, Oxford, 1631.

And Sir Win. Domville says: —
"Centuries of the Christian era passed away before the Sunday was observed by the Christian church as a Sabbath. History does not furnish us with a single proof or indication that it was at any time so observed previous to the Sabbatical edict of Constantine in A.D. 321."  Examination of the Six Texts, p. 291.

"Our observance of Sunday as the Lord's day is apparently derived from Mithraism. The argument that has sometimes been used against this claim, namely, that Sunday was chosen because of the resurrection on that day, is not well supported." Gordon J. Laing, "Survivals of Roman Religion," p. 148.

And what, pray tell, are all of these quotes meant to prove? Or are we simply supposed to be impressed with your copy and paste abilities?

No, they simply show historical facts which your false testimony denies. The seventh day Sabbath was not done away with by Christ or the apostles, it was replaced over time by apostate "Christianity".