Christian Forums

Now don't reach up to check if your halo is still in place!  - You know as well as I do, that at some time we all stumble and fall.  You can't read the Bible without seeing it mentioned often "We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" etc,.  At one time our church took the theme of King David "a man after God's heart" as the theme for a few weeks - but they never dwelt on his fall from grace, when in his unusual idle indolence, his "eye-gate" espied Bathsheba and wrongful passions were aroused - despite having currently quite a bevy of his own wives/concubines.  We all know what happened as a result - it went from bad to worse - conniving at Bathsheba's faithful hubbies death so that David could take her into his entourage.  However, through Nathan's message of rebuke from the Lord and God's message of future punishment of continual family strife and sorrow - we learn a lesson! 

For us seeking a way back into fellowship with the Lord, I hope that like me, you have found the "cry" of the penitent in the Psalms, to be a great help in that journey back - that same sad road many have trod before us!

IMO it is better to mark out particular sections of the Psalms (and memorize them!) that touch our hearts according to our needs - and use those on the route back!

Here are some of my "lead-in" favourites - but I would be very happy to hear of your favourites!!!

I will seek your face O Lord
Do not hide it from me.
Nor in thy anger, turn away thy servant
whose help Thou hast been.(On so many earlier occasions!)
Do not cast me off or forsake me, O God my Saviour!

To Thee O Lord I call ;
O My Rock, be not deaf to my cry,
lest if Thou answer me with silence,
I become like those who go down to the abyss.
Hear my cry for mercy when I call to Thee for help,

I usually include relevant portions of David's cry of penitence after his great fall, in Psalm 51, because it speaks to me of wretchedness : -(Yes I know about the business of coming before Him with boldness to the throne of Grace, because of what Jesus has done for us - but confession, penitence and repentance come first, before the restoration to fellowship!)

"Be gracious to me O God, in Thy true love;
in the fullness of Thy mercy blot out my misdeeds...

... do not drive me from Thy Presence
or take Thy Holy Spirit from me; (etc)

How do you tread the road back towards the Lord after a spiritual fall?

I think you have the wrong idea about what even a fall from grace is.  Do you seriously think that the believer will fall from grace at each sin committed?  What or how many sins does it take for the believer to "fall from grace"?  I do not hold to the Once-Saved-Always-Saved, but I also do not hold to the believer falling from grace as a result of sin(s) committed.  He falls from grace if and only if he no longer believes.

Having said that I do believe that as we go through life, there are highs and lows in our Christian lives.  That is the subject matter for a discussion regarding sanctification and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in our sanctification.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jun 19, 2017 - 07:03:27
I think you have the wrong idea about what even a fall from grace is.  Do you seriously think that the believer will fall from grace at each sin committed?  What or how many sins does it take for the believer to "fall from grace"?  I do not hold to the Once-Saved-Always-Saved, but I also do not hold to the believer falling from grace as a result of sin(s) committed.  He falls from grace if and only if he no longer believes.

Having said that I do believe that as we go through life, there are highs and lows in our Christian lives.  That is the subject matter for a discussion regarding sanctification and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in our sanctification.

I did not mention a "fall from grace" - you have introduced that phrase!  I believe nothing (whatever "falls" we make") can separate us from Jesus love towards us.  The sense of failure is ours - and of course it must cause grief to the Lord, who has a "best plan" for us - not to stay defeated, sunk in misery and self recrimination.  We are the losers while in that condition, until we come to our right minds and "take the road" back to the Lord.  In our "fallen state" (thanks to Adam/Eve's failure) these sad temporary falls will occur from time to time.  But I believe the Lord is more interested in us being in fellowship with Him - than about our failures (providing they have been confessed etc, and we genuinely seek a return to Him). Love covers a multitude of sins!

As "evidence" that "Love covers a multitude of sins" am thinking of Luke 7:36-50 - in which Jesus is invited for a meal at the house of Simon the Pharisee.  You probably know the story as well as I do. A lady of questionable repute comes in, and kneeling behind Jesus proceeds to wet his feet with her tears, wipes them dry with her hair and anoints them with myrrh.  Jesus reproaches Simon for his earlier lack of the customary welcoming foot washing of that place/time, then he says "...And so, I tell you, her great love proves that her many sins have been forgiven; where little has been forgiven, little love is shown".  We see the same "heart attitude" of Jesus shown at some other places in the parables. In the case of the woman caught in adultery and dragged before Jesus, where she expected to be stoned to death.  Jesus says "Has no one condemned you?" (after her accusers had shame-facedly left, one by one, the oldest first!!!) "No sir!" she replies, and Jesus says to her "Nor do I condemn you. You may go; do not sin again." Here we see that it is Jesus love for us - His unmerited mercy and grace towards those of us who fail.   So I have hope - unmerited kindness from the Lord produces a positive response in us to follow Him - despite any occasional/infrequent "stumbles" along the way!

In some strange way, I feel almost sorry for those who appear to have led "unblemished" lives, coming from a long line of distinguished forbears who have followed the Lord closely.  It seems to me that although not "cold" towards the Lord - they have not known the utter relief and gratitude for His forgiveness and mercy! ("Where little is forgiven, little love is shown"! )  But then I remember how the Bible in many places tells us that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" - so maybe some sin goes unnoticed by others - like self-righteousness perhaps!

"We are pilgrims on a journey - we are travellers on The Way!"

Quote from: Dave_UK on Mon Jun 19, 2017 - 16:32:31

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jun 19, 2017 - 07:03:27
I think you have the wrong idea about what even a fall from grace is.  Do you seriously think that the believer will fall from grace at each sin committed?  What or how many sins does it take for the believer to "fall from grace"?  I do not hold to the Once-Saved-Always-Saved, but I also do not hold to the believer falling from grace as a result of sin(s) committed.  He falls from grace if and only if he no longer believes.

Having said that I do believe that as we go through life, there are highs and lows in our Christian lives.  That is the subject matter for a discussion regarding sanctification and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in our sanctification.

I did not mention a "fall from grace" - you have introduced that phrase!  I believe nothing (whatever "falls" we make") can separate us from Jesus love towards us.  The sense of failure is ours - and of course it must cause grief to the Lord, who has a "best plan" for us - not to stay defeated, sunk in misery and self recrimination.  We are the losers while in that condition, until we come to our right minds and "take the road" back to the Lord.  In our "fallen state" (thanks to Adam/Eve's failure) these sad temporary falls will occur from time to time.  But I believe the Lord is more interested in us being in fellowship with Him - than about our failures (providing they have been confessed etc, and we genuinely seek a return to Him). Love covers a multitude of sins!

So then who are "the fallen"?  What is the "fallen state" you speak of here?  If it is not "fallen from grace"  then what is it fallen from?

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jun 21, 2017 - 07:32:32

Quote from: Dave_UK on Mon Jun 19, 2017 - 16:32:31

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jun 19, 2017 - 07:03:27
I think you have the wrong idea about what even a fall from grace is.  Do you seriously think that the believer will fall from grace at each sin committed?  What or how many sins does it take for the believer to "fall from grace"?  I do not hold to the Once-Saved-Always-Saved, but I also do not hold to the believer falling from grace as a result of sin(s) committed.  He falls from grace if and only if he no longer believes.

Having said that I do believe that as we go through life, there are highs and lows in our Christian lives.  That is the subject matter for a discussion regarding sanctification and the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in our sanctification.

I did not mention a "fall from grace" - you have introduced that phrase!  I believe nothing (whatever "falls" we make") can separate us from Jesus love towards us.  The sense of failure is ours - and of course it must cause grief to the Lord, who has a "best plan" for us - not to stay defeated, sunk in misery and self recrimination.  We are the losers while in that condition, until we come to our right minds and "take the road" back to the Lord.  In our "fallen state" (thanks to Adam/Eve's failure) these sad temporary falls will occur from time to time.  But I believe the Lord is more interested in us being in fellowship with Him - than about our failures (providing they have been confessed etc, and we genuinely seek a return to Him). Love covers a multitude of sins!

So then who are "the fallen"?  What is the "fallen state" you speak of here?  If it is not "fallen from grace"  then what is it fallen from?

OK have your phrase "Fall from grace" - where does that leave us "unfortunates" who stumble? What do you suggest we do?

Are, in your opinion, those of us who have an infrequent "fall", damned and lost forever?  Have you ever failed the Lord yourself - and if so, what action did you take to remedy the situation?

Quote from: Dave_UK on Wed Jun 21, 2017 - 11:31:40Are, in your opinion, those of us who have an infrequent "fall", damned and lost forever?  Have you ever failed the Lord yourself - and if so, what action did you take to remedy the situation?

No, of course not.  Do you not understand that we have been justified?  We have been forgiven.  And we will remain so unless we no longer believe, that is, unless we disbelieve.  When we are justified that is not just for past sins.  Justification is a state of being for the one in Christ, for the Christian.  We do not go into and out of salvation with each sin.  That is the reason that I asked you what is the "fallen state" you speak of.  If I understand what you are saying, it is wrong.

I don't know "where you are coming from" - all our backgrounds and lives are so diverse, each one of us possibly passing through many sad/trying circumstances. I would therefore ask you to be merciful to me, and avoid being judgemental.  By God's good grace we will all be part of His great family, and will be fellow-shipping together! (How will we recognise one another in all the myriads there!?)

In my daily Bible study last night, I came again across that shameful issue that Paul describes in the Corinth epistles - I focussed on 2 Cor 2:7b "...you must forgive the offender and put heart into him; the man's sorrow must not be made so severe as to overwhelm him."

I have read/re-read Watchman Nee's "The Normal Christian Life" several times (one of my favourite "classics" - in fact I got the title wrong when I first posted this, my old copy was falling apart at the binding, so I got another recently). I think I understand a little about "justification" (by "The  Precious Blood" and "sanctification" (via the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our lives).  In his book Nee uses the "Romans" epistle to clarify his points - and I found that extremely helpful .

Also in Nee's book, I liked his description of a deep conversation with a junior colleague, towards the end of which, the colleague erupts with joy "Praise be! - So that means I don't have to do anything!" - the Lord has done it all for us.  This is what puts "clear water" between Christianity and other faith systems - in which there are so many rules to be observed.

The witness of the Holy Spirit within me, has assured me that I will be with Him, though am totally unworthy.  I believe/trust that the words "Acquitted - Paid in full!" have been written across my heavenly account.  Despite my infrequent "falls" - I have known His Mercy and Grace drawing me back to Himself, and He continues to "fellowship" with me - correcting and bringing things to my mind that I had not noticed before, but are of concern to Him! "Correction is the high road to life!; neglect reproof and you miss THE WAY!" (that's my deliberate capitalisation at the end of this well-known Proverb!)

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jun 21, 2017 - 11:46:53

Quote from: Dave_UK on Wed Jun 21, 2017 - 11:31:40Are, in your opinion, those of us who have an infrequent "fall", damned and lost forever?  Have you ever failed the Lord yourself - and if so, what action did you take to remedy the situation?

No, of course not.  Do you not understand that we have been justified?  We have been forgiven.  And we will remain so unless we no longer believe, that is, unless we disbelieve.  When we are justified that is not just for past sins.  Justification is a state of being for the one in Christ, for the Christian.  We do not go into and out of salvation with each sin.  That is the reason that I asked you what is the "fallen state" you speak of.  If I understand what you are saying, it is wrong.