Christian Forums

Quote from: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 09:26:14
Big Bang?

Tell us what do you say God created in the beginning before this so called big bang process?

Uh, angels?  But in fact what difference does it make if He did or didn't create anything before the big bang?  In point of fact, since time is a physical creation of this physical universe, more likely than not, there really was no "before" God created this world.  So far as we know, time is a measure appropriate only to the physical creation.

QuoteThe Bible most certainly and explicitly denies evolution.

Of course it doesn't.  Doesn't say one way or the other.   Genesis does explicitly reject the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism, but that doesn't matter at all to your salvation.

If indeed your new doctrine of YE creationism as you promote it, turns out to be a deception, and as a Christian you should have known and yet you followed the deception...it won't matter.  God doesn't use that to separate the sheep from the goats.

The real damage YE creationism does, is to turn away those who might otherwise come to him, when they are told that YE creationism is part of Christian belief because they know that YE creationism is false.   When this happens due to your advocacy you have participated in someone rejecting God as the Creator.     However, if you didn't intend that (and I have seen it happen again and again) you may have a way out.

But do you really want this to happen?

QuoteI have in my hand scientific proof that the resurrection is an impossibility!

Show us that.  Never heard a scientist say it.  Science can't rule out miracles.   You on the other hand have decided that science is wrong about the resurrection.  You have decided that Gods Word is subject to man's knowledge.  Even though you've been shown that science does not deny miracles, you continue to say otherwise.

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 10:49:51

QuoteBig Bang?

Tell us what do you say God created in the beginning before this so called big bang process?

Uh, angels?  But in fact what difference does it make if He did or didn't create anything before the big bang?  In point of fact, since time is a physical creation of this physical universe, more likely than not, there really was no "before" God created this world.  So far as we know, time is a measure appropriate only to the physical creation.

Angels? What does that have to do with what God created that went big bang! Somehow God must have created something that went through the big bang process.

At least you believe that God created the angels.   

Quote from: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 11:20:45
Uh, angels?  But in fact what difference does it make if He did or didn't create anything before the big bang?  In point of fact, since time is a physical creation of this physical universe, more likely than not, there really was no "before" God created this world.  So far as we know, time is a measure appropriate only to the physical creation.

Quote

[/size]Angels? What does that have to do with what God created that went big bang! Somehow God must have created something that went through the big bang process.

At least you believe that God created the angels.

God created the big bang.  If you had bothered to read even the most basic aspects of the big bang, you would know that "bang" is simply a tag applied to the event.  It was assigned as mockery by an early antagonist to the concept; he eventually came to believe in the reality of it.

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 12:00:25

QuoteAngels? What does that have to do with what God created that went big bang! Somehow God must have created something that went through the big bang process.

At least you believe that God created the angels.

God created the big bang.  If you had bothered to read even the most basic aspects of the big bang, you would know that "bang" is simply a tag applied to the event.  It was assigned as mockery by an early antagonist to the concept; he eventually came to believe in the reality of it.

So, you believe that God created the big bang? Or is it man who made up the big bang as his way of trying to explain how everything begun? An impossible human quest for something that only one like God can know. And the proud man say that based on man's scientific work and human wisdom.

Did God in scriptures say that? But in the scientific scriptures, man, in his own wisdom do say that. 

We have the Holy scriptures of God say " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

QuoteGod created the big bang.  If you had bothered to read even the most basic aspects of the big bang, you would know that "bang" is simply a tag applied to the event.  It was assigned as mockery by an early antagonist to the concept; he eventually came to believe in the reality of it.

Ironically, atheists initially assailed the Big Bang theory (which was proposed by a physicist who happened to be a Catholic priest) because it implied creation instead of a never-created universe.

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 10:45:36
No not really.  But I am really curious here.  Suppose, just suppose, that in fact God created the universe using the big bang and His laws of physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, etc much like is being presented in the sciences;  how do you suppose He would declare that to the Hebrew to whom and for whom the creation account was written.  Science, for example, sometimes describes the very earliest of time, first seconds and earlier right after the big bang, as a primordial "soup" of fundamental particles.  How would God have described that to the Hebrew 4000 years ago?  I can imagine that He might call that "water", there being no Hebrew for "primordial soup of fundamental particles".  Much as God said the "sun rises and the sun sets; and hastening to its place it rises there again", when we know that the rising and setting sun is really the earth rotating on its axis and has nothing to do with any movement by the sun.

But who knows, perhaps you hold to the literal words in the Bible that says the earth is unmoved and the sun rises in the east, travels across the sky, sets in the west and then returns (unseen) again to the east to begin the process all over again.  And I could believe that you just might.

*snicker 

Quote from: Michael2012 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 09:26:14
Big Bang?

Tell us what do you say God created in the beginning before this so called big bang process?

That would be God's little secret wouldn't it?

Everything that begins to exist has a cause....

Quote from: Carey on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 08:57:51
In my experience some do reject God as creator based on believing in evolution.

You can't possibly and logically defend that claim.
Everybody who rejects God believes in evolution and it is rather a very tiny little group of those who believe in evolution accept God as a creator at the same time.

If you ask an atheist why he does not believe in God, in 99.9% of the cases he will immediately refer to evolution.
What you say is pertinently incorrect. Most atheists defend their atheism by appealing to science.

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 10:45:36
No not really.  But I am really curious here.  Suppose, just suppose, that in fact God created the universe using the big bang and His laws of physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, etc much like is being presented in the sciences;  how do you suppose He would declare that to the Hebrew to whom and for whom the creation account was written.  Science, for example, sometimes describes the very earliest of time, first seconds and earlier right after the big bang, as a primordial "soup" of fundamental particles.  How would God have described that to the Hebrew 4000 years ago?  I can imagine that He might call that "water", there being no Hebrew for "primordial soup of fundamental particles".  Much as God said the "sun rises and the sun sets; and hastening to its place it rises there again", when we know that the rising and setting sun is really the earth rotating on its axis and has nothing to do with any movement by the sun.

But who knows, perhaps you hold to the literal words in the Bible that says the earth is unmoved and the sun rises in the east, travels across the sky, sets in the west and then returns (unseen) again to the east to begin the process all over again.  And I could believe that you just might.

The Hebrews had absolutely no problem understanding the account in Genesis and neither did the generations after them.
The only time "problems" arose was when science started to complicate things.

Quote from: AVZ on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 12:45:40
You can't possibly and logically defend that claim.
Everybody who rejects God believes in evolution and it is rather a very tiny little group of those who believe in evolution accept God as a creator at the same time.

If you ask an atheist why he does not believe in God, in 99.9% of the cases he will immediately refer to evolution.
What you say is pertinently incorrect. Most atheists defend their atheism by appealing to evolution.

Wow, logic 101.

Talk to many atheists that have been told by zealots that any scientific discoveries and theories are the works of satan and there you'll have one of the biggest reasons why people reject God.

4WD, I disagree that young earth creationist turn people away from God because of that belief. If someone is averse to miracles as opposed to hard science, why would they believe in notions like the virgin birth or an actual resurrection from the dead regardless of being potentially repelled by a young earth interpretation of Genesis vs what science has concluded. If science was totally relied upon, who would "fall for" the rest of scripture.

The gospel requires a whole lot more "acceptance" of the incredible than a young earth creation.

Quote from: Alan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 12:50:50

Wow, logic 101.

Talk to many atheists that have been told by zealots that any scientific discoveries and theories are the works of satan and there you'll have one of the biggest reasons why people reject God.

That is completely irrelevant. What I am saying is an objective and correct observation.
If I put you in a room with 100 atheists and you only ask one question: "Why are you an atheist"...the discussion will immediately go to evolution and scientific proof.
The truth is that there are very few zealots who declare scientific discoveries the work of Satan, but there are many atheists who happily proclaim science and evolution their liberator from religion.

It is very simple: Everything that leads man away from God, comes from Satan.

Quote from: AVZ on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 13:06:14
That is completely irrelevant. What I am saying is an objective and correct observation.
If I put you in a room with 100 atheists and you only ask one question: "Why are you an atheist"...the discussion will immediately go to evolution and scientific proof.
The truth is that there are very few zealots who declare scientific discoveries the work of Satan, but there are many atheists who happily proclaim science and evolution their liberator from religion.

It is very simple: Everything that leads man away from God, comes from Satan.

For the atheist that can't get past the genuine discoveries that have been made in the name of science, what do you say to him/her? Do you continue on the path that it's all a lie? I don't believe the things of science are a lie, nor could I justly tell someone that has devoted their life to discovery is deluded. The only explanation left is that God has purposely placed these deceptions on our earth to weed out the tares, but I don't believe that either.

Quote from: AVZ on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 12:45:40Everybody who rejects God believes in evolution and it is rather a very tiny little group of those who believe in evolution accept God as a creator at the same time.

Actually I would be willing to bet that there are far more Christians who accept some form of evolution than those who reject it.  The YECs actually are the rather tiny little group and represent a very small percentage of Christians.

Quote from: Jaime on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 13:00:344WD, I disagree that young earth creationist turn people away from God because of that belief. If someone is averse to miracles as opposed to hard science, why would they believe in notions like the virgin birth or an actual resurrection from the dead regardless of being potentially repelled by a young earth interpretation of Genesis vs what science has concluded. If science was totally relied upon, who would "fall for" the rest of scripture.

The gospel requires a whole lot more "acceptance" of the incredible than a young earth creation.

I think that was Alan who mentioned that, not me.  However, I would not disagree with him.  I find too many who make believing in the YEC interpretation of creation a truly sad "test of fellowship".

I accept that things evolve as a YE creationist, just NOT in the macro sense. I do not believe that creation necessarily happened 6000 yrs ago, but i equally do not believe that it happened Billions of years ago and macro evolution ensued. I think it takes FAR more faith to believe In the Big Bang and macro evolution as not. I think being an atheist would take the greatest amount of faith of all. Though none of them would admit it. A Christian Big Banger is kind of a hybrid, one that confounds me. There are many things in the Bible that would cause an atheist or simply a scientist to scratch his head other than the creation story. The creation does not have to conform to scientific norms anymore than the virgin birth has to.

Similar to global warming. I concede that the earth is warming, but just am not ready to buy that man is the major cause of it. To most gullible warming advocates, that would make me an idiot. I see the opposite view as idiotic.

I agree 4WD, it along with MANY other things should not be used as a litmus test. And I have seen some of those things, not the most ridiculous being musical instruments in worship. Many many more. I have seen people denied communion because they were not baptized in a particular congregation. A communion of all things!

Of course most atheist take total offense to the notion that Jesus is God, and the savior of mankind. The stories of creation, Noah, the Red Sea etc are far more unacceptible than a non big bang creation void of macro evolution.

Most atheists have been indoctrinated to be anti Christian for many reasons not just in being "pro science".

Atheism like global warmingism is a religious idealogy in my opinion. I can accept the Big Bangers as fellow Christians, though I don't agree with them. I was deeply steeped in all that in college as a geology major and ultimately an engineering major. The Big Bang was NOT put forth as anything but the real story against the "God did it" whatever way.

QuoteThat would be God's little secret wouldn't it?

C.S. Lewis described the witch in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe , saying she knew the magic at the beginning, but did not know the deep magic before the beginning.

Science is like that.   We have no way of knowing scientifically what there was before the creation, because science is limited to nature.

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 10:45:36
No not really.  But I am really curious here.  Suppose, just suppose, that in fact God created the universe using the big bang and His laws of physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, etc much like is being presented in the sciences;  how do you suppose He would declare that to the Hebrew to whom and for whom the creation account was written.  Science, for example, sometimes describes the very earliest of time, first seconds and earlier right after the big bang, as a primordial "soup" of fundamental particles.  How would God have described that to the Hebrew 4000 years ago?  I can imagine that He might call that "water", there being no Hebrew for "primordial soup of fundamental particles".  Much as God said the "sun rises and the sun sets; and hastening to its place it rises there again", when we know that the rising and setting sun is really the earth rotating on its axis and has nothing to do with any movement by the sun.

But who knows, perhaps you hold to the literal words in the Bible that says the earth is unmoved and the sun rises in the east, travels across the sky, sets in the west and then returns (unseen) again to the east to begin the process all over again.  And I could believe that you just might.

Right, like I said, God uses you now as the new prophets because in your own mind in any case you are much smarter, simply more intelligent, and of course more evolved than those old simple minded more monkey like prophets God chose from the past. Now that we have evolved enough we can comprehend something like the theory of evolution, which would have been way over the heads of our more monkey like ancestors, thus the creation story for those who had just received a spirit and were still trying to get over being monkey like. Get a grip and get over yourself, if evolution were true it most certainly wouldn't be to hard for God to explain to anyone, nor are you mentally superior to any of the prophets of God in any way shape or form for believing it.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,...................................
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

It is God Himself you deny, His power, and His testimony.

Ecc 1:5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

Was the man who said the above ignorant as you suggest, believing the earth does not move, and the sun rotates around it? Or are you ignorant for thinking you know what this man thought regarding the the same from this one sentence statement spoken while addressing issues other than how the sun and earth move in relation to each other? We still say the sun rises and sets today, do we believe the sun rotates around the earth? Even if this man did believe as you suggest, which we do not know from this one obscure statement, what does this have to do with humanities ability to comprehend evolutionary theory or not? Do you think you are smarter than Solomon was, or any other of the bible writers or prophets simply because you were able to comprehend that the earth revolves around the sun when someone told you that? We know you didn't make that discovery. Do you seriously believe that God told these things to people of the past because they simply could not handle the truth about them like you can now? Are you not arrogantly ignorant yourself for believing such? Yes, I believe you are.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 19:18:44
C.S. Lewis described the witch in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe , saying she knew the magic at the beginning, but did not know the deep magic before the beginning.

Science is like that.   We have no way of knowing scientifically what there was before the creation, because science is limited to nature.

Knowing that God is at the heart of creation is what really matters, it clears up the mysteries surrounding unknowns such as "what existed before the big bang" or "where did this sudden burst of energy originate from".

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 13:42:38
Actually I would be willing to bet that there are far more Christians who accept some form of evolution than those who reject it.  The YECs actually are the rather tiny little group and represent a very small percentage of Christians.

I think you are severely underestimating the size of the YEC group. You should get out more.

YE creationists are a minority in the United States, but they are a sizable minority:

38% say God created man in present form, lowest in 35 years
http://news.gallup.com/poll/210956/belief-creationist-view-humans-new-low.aspx

Younger evangelicals are less likely to accept YE creationism, and this is an ongoing trend.

Among Christians worldwide, YE creationism is a tiny minority.

QuoteKnowing that God is at the heart of creation is what really matters, it clears up the mysteries surrounding unknowns such as "what existed before the big bang" or "where did this sudden burst of energy originate from".

Yep.

Fewer and fewer young people are likely to be evangelical at all much less YE.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 19:18:44
C.S. Lewis described the witch in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe , saying she knew the magic at the beginning, but did not know the deep magic before the beginning.

Science is like that.   We have no way of knowing scientifically what there was before the creation, because science is limited to nature.

We have no way of knowing scientifically or not, about what God have not revealed to us. The matter of the fact is, even that what God had revealed to us in scriptures, we even come short of knowing it all, if only with our human finite carnal minds.

Science is no different from the other methods that mankind, in his search for wisdom and knowledge, have come up, for his own benefit. But this wisdom and knowledge that he desired is of the flesh (carnal), for it is not in the search of God. Science, man say is basically knowledge based on observed reality in the things around him, yet the same, even while they observe the reality of man's ungodliness and unrighteousness, they seem to not mind it and cast it aside, as if this has nothing to do with the revelation of God. And even while all can observe and see, in the reality around them, the things that are made, the very existence of God, His invisible attributes, His eternal power and Godhead, the man apparently simply does not take it by heart.   

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

They are without excuse, in not knowing God. They could not say, they knew not God. There simply is no excuse. For God had made it plain for all man, scientist or not, to see it clearly.

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

And here's what scriptures said about them who exchanged the truth of God for the lie:

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

And here's what God did regarding them who did not like to retain the knowledge of God:

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

Now, to those who spend their life in the pursuit of the knowledge that they find in world philosophy & science, in all its fields, which they admit as concerning only the physical world, and nothing about God, hear what God have to say about wisdom & knowledge, and of the world:

Colossians 2:1 For...................the Father and of Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

To the Christian scientist and the Christian scientist to be, consider this about the unbeliever:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

1 John 4:5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 - 01:10:36We have no way of knowing scientifically or not, about what God have not revealed to us.

Michael, that was a very silly statement.  Do you know how to read?  Was that revealed to you by God? Obviously we can know about God only what God has revealed about Himself.  In fact we can know about the spiritual realm only that which God has revealed about the spiritual realm.  However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with what we can know about the physical world.

QuoteTo the Christian scientist and the Christian scientist to be, consider this about the unbeliever:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

1 John 4:5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 

Clearly both of those verses relate to the spiritual, not the physical.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Dec 01, 2017 - 20:19:01
Right, like I said, God uses you now as the new prophets because in your own mind in any case you are much smarter, simply more intelligent.....

Talking to and about yourself again Amo?  You really need to watch that.  It is a habit that can lead you into bad things.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Dec 02, 2017 - 05:10:35
Michael, that was a very silly statement.  Do you know how to read?  Was that revealed to you by God? Obviously we can know about God only what God has revealed about Himself.  In fact we can know about the spiritual realm only that which God has revealed about the spiritual realm.  However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with what we can know about the physical world.

Clearly you are the silly one.
If God has not revealed something to us, in whatever shape or form, we can't know it.
It is impossible for us to know that which is not revealed, whether it be spiritual or physical.
Very odd you have an argument with that.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Dec 02, 2017 - 05:10:35
Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 01:10:36

QuoteWe have no way of knowing scientifically or not, about what God have not revealed to us.

Michael, that was a very silly statement.  Do you know how to read?  Was that revealed to you by God? Obviously we can know about God only what God has revealed about Himself.  In fact we can know about the spiritual realm only that which God has revealed about the spiritual realm.  However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with what we can know about the physical world.

Not if you did not drop my next statement which is:

The matter of the fact is, even that what God had revealed to us in scriptures, we even come short of knowing it all, if only with our human finite carnal minds.

The point of what I said is that, God did not reveal to man how He created or what happened in the beginning of His creation. So, there is no point for the scientist in trying to know how the physical world begun, for what God had not revealed to man, man cannot know, no matter how brilliant a scientist he may well be. At best, what he can come up with is but a brilliant speculation.     

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Dec 02, 2017 - 05:10:35

QuoteTo the Christian scientist and the Christian scientist to be, consider this about the unbeliever:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

1 John 4:5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 

Clearly both of those verses relate to the spiritual, not the physical.

No sir. The Colossian scriptures speak of philosophy, tradition of men, and basic principles of the world. These things refer not to spiritual things of God, but of the things of the physical natural world and man. The 1 John 4 scriptures speaks of those who are of the world, those whose mind and heart is in the material world, its wisdom, knowledge, pleasures and works.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 - 07:20:50

The matter of the fact is, even that what God had revealed to us in scriptures, we even come short of knowing it all, if only with our human finite carnal minds.

The point of what I said is that, God did not reveal to man how He created or what happened in the beginning of His creation. So, there is no point for the scientist in trying to know how the physical world begun, for what God had not revealed to man, man cannot know, no matter how brilliant a scientist he may well be. At best, what he can come up with is but a brilliant speculation.     

This entire thread continues to go in circles. The physical universe and our world within leaves evidence of how, why, when, matter and life came to be. Our faith in God places Him at the onset of all things created, it isn't a lie, fraud, mistake, delusion, or any anti-god agenda, it's simply the facts collected that point to creation.

To minimize the work of scientists as "brilliant speculation" shows a clear lack of scientific understanding, I suggest some people study some of the known scientific theories and show us where the errors have occurred.

 Yet science in general will not acknowledge a creator. A creator factually existing, as he does, cannot be ignored by those who purport to be fact mongers. Yes there are some Christian Scientist, but science in general refuses to admit to the glaring fact of a Creator. And facts is what science is about. If textbooks would address the beginning instant of some matter from somewhere exploded into something by just saying common sense even reason points to a Creator, rather than trying to hypothesize something coming from nothing. Why must every explanation of that primal moment be attempted to be explained by no reasonable explanation. And why is no reasonable explanation better than just admitting they don't know and it could be a point of creation by a Creator. Again I realize that is exactly what some here say, but no scientific textbook will admit even that. If there is point me to it and the secular schools that teach from it.

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Dec 02, 2017 - 08:16:44
Yet science in general will not acknowledge a creator. A creator factually existing, as he does, cannot be ignored by those who purport to be fact mongers. Yes there are some Christian Scientist, but science in general refuses to admit to the glaring fact of a Creator. And facts is what science is about. If textbooks would address the beginning instant of some matter from somewhere exploded into something by just saying common sense even reason points to a Creator, rather than trying to hypothesize something coming from nothing. Why must every explanation of that primal moment be attempted to be explained by no reasonable explanation. And why is no reasonable explanation better than just admitting they don't know and it could be a point of creation by a Creator. Again I realize that is exactly what some here say, but no scientific textbook will admit even that. If there is point me to it and the secular schools that teach from it.

That's not the point, since the vast majority of scientists would likely consider themselves agnostic and some even atheist, the idea of "creation" gets dismissed quickly. There exists no evidence to support the origins of matter and life, it is our faith in God that leads us to believe that it was He whom created. That said, the lack of spirituality in the field of science shouldn't detract from the evidence that has been brought to light.

Quote from: Alan on Sat Dec 02, 2017 - 07:59:01

This entire thread continues to go in circles. The physical universe and our world within leaves evidence of how, why, when, matter and life came to be. Our faith in God places Him at the onset of all things created, it isn't a lie, fraud, mistake, delusion, or any anti-god agenda, it's simply the facts collected that point to creation.

To minimize the work of scientists as "brilliant speculation" shows a clear lack of scientific understanding, I suggest some people study some of the known scientific theories and show us where the errors have occurred.

I am not all minimizing all the works of scientists as "brilliant speculation". My statement has a context, which is, on the matter on how God created or what happened in the beginning of His creation, or how the physical world begun, or if there is anything or nothing in the beginning.

With regards known scientific theories made by scientist, how would you expect the ordinary minded man to show the errors? Besides, there is no need for that. History teaches us how even these theories changed over time, which tells us that what knowledge acquired through science, is a kind where falseness becomes hidden behind some truth, or behind what scientists perceives as true in the physical world.

In our daily life, we see things happen the way science tells us. But likewise, we also see things happen differently. And every time things does not happen in accordance to what science teaches, what then?     

Quote from: Alan on Sat Dec 02, 2017 - 08:40:49

That's not the point, since the vast majority of scientists would likely consider themselves agnostic and some even atheist, the idea of "creation" gets dismissed quickly. There exists no evidence to support the origins of matter and life, it is our faith in God that leads us to believe that it was He whom created. That said, the lack of spirituality in the field of science shouldn't detract from the evidence that has been brought to light.

And unless you understand all of this science, you are placing your faith in scientists.