Christian Forums

If the Bible is a Catholic book,

1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).

2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).

3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).

4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).

5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).

6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).

7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).

8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).

9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).

10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).

11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).

12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).

13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).

14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

Ah! Anti-Catholic lists.

Which Catholic bashing site did you copy and paste this one from?

And if anyone bothered to answer this rubbish would you hang around to answer - or are you just doing a drop and run.?

Hey winsome! Nice to see you! 

Quote from: Alan on Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 07:19:00
Hey winsome! Nice to see you! 

Hi Alan,

Thanks.
I haven't posted here for a while. I gave up because it just seemed to be Catholic bashing rather than constructive dialogue.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 07:24:55
Hi Alan,

Thanks.
I haven't posted here for a while. I gave up because it just seemed to be Catholic bashing rather than constructive dialogue.

Well then welcome back, you haven't missed a thing, nor has anything changed. 

Haven't seen Andre for a while either

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 05:26:24
Ah! Anti-Catholic lists.

Which Catholic bashing site did you copy and paste this one from?

And if anyone bothered to answer this rubbish would you hang around to answer - or are you just doing a drop and run.?

"anti-catholic" ? LOL. maybe "anti-catholicISM", but not anti-catholic.

so, i guess you will just go and bury your head in the sand now.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 05:26:24
Ah! Anti-Catholic lists.

Which Catholic bashing site did you copy and paste this one from?

And if anyone bothered to answer this rubbish would you hang around to answer - or are you just doing a drop and run.?

Oh, i enjoy dialogs, so please, pick one thing that is wrong and lets discuss it.

I hate it when people post something and then run away.

I also hate it when people label anything that is negative towards' a persons beliefs and call it "anti".

By that analogy, mormonism, islam, catholicISM are "anti-Christian".

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 22:36:30
"anti-catholic" ? LOL. maybe "anti-catholicISM", but not anti-catholic.

so, i guess you will just go and bury your head in the sand now.

Poor guess.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Tue Dec 12, 2017 - 22:39:51
Oh, i enjoy dialogs, so please, pick one thing that is wrong and lets discuss it.

I hate it when people post something and then run away.

I also hate it when people label anything that is negative towards' a persons beliefs and call it "anti".

By that analogy, mormonism, islam, catholicISM are "anti-Christian".

Oh yawn!

Catholics are Christians.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 21:01:34
If the Bible is a Catholic book......

All these sort of lists do is show ignorance of Catholic teaching and of the Bible. But here are your answers:



It doesn't

2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).

Lk 11:27-28 doesn't

3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).

Because they are. The Catholic Church teaches this
4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).

It doesn't

5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).

Because they are.

6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).

Because it contradicts Ex 20:3

7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).

It doesn't

8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).

It doesn't

9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).

The only foundation  of what?

10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).

It doesn't.
11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).

It doesn't.

12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).

It isn't

13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).

It doesn't

14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

It isn't
[/quote]

Christians are Christians.  Baptists or Catholics are not necessarily Christians.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 09:03:16
Christians are Christians.  Baptists or Catholics are not necessarily Christians.

Is that true with all denominational Christians?

Quote from: Alan on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 09:21:20

Is that true with all denominational Christians?

Yes.  Going to a church or belonging to a group os not what makes one a Christian.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 09:36:11
Yes.  Going to a church or belonging to a group os not what makes one a Christian.

Rules of this forum says:

1.5 You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian if he or she genuinely believes in Jesus Christ as the savior of human beings from hell and claims to have demonstrable faith in Him.

Quote from: winsome on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 09:54:53
Rules of this forum says:

1.5 You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian if he or she genuinely believes in Jesus Christ as the savior of human beings from hell and claims to have demonstrable faith in Him.

And I did not violate that rule.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 10:09:08
And I did not violate that rule.

I didn't mean to suggest you did. It was just a comment about the stance of this forum.

KiwiChristian came very close in post #6 (IMO of course)

In the end its the Bible that is our guide, and if something we believe isn't there, or if something contradicts what is there, we must discard it. This is why I couldn't go to a RC church because so many of their beliefs aren't in the Bible or contradict what the Bible says.   

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 12:58:11
In the end its the Bible that is our guide,...

The Bible says scripture is useful (or profitable) - 2Tim 3:16. It does not say it is solely sufficient.

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 12:58:11
...and if something we believe isn't there, or if something contradicts what is there, we must discard it. This is why I couldn't go to a RC church because so many of their beliefs aren't in the Bible or contradict what the Bible says.

No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).

Quote from: Alan on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 08:52:16
Catholics are Christians.

Yes, because "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Shall we try and get back to the topic or just abandon it?

Quote from: winsome on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 13:58:31
Shall we try and get back to the topic or just abandon it?

Let me guess. You guys will just abandon it, making some excuse not to address the points?

I replied (#10) but it seems to have gone off course since then

Quote from: winsome on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 09:54:53
Rules of this forum says:

1.5 You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian if he or she genuinely believes in Jesus Christ as the savior of human beings from hell and claims to have demonstrable faith in Him.

WHICH Jesus are we talking about?

And, WHO determines the "genuinely" part?

Quote from: winsome on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 13:24:42
The Bible says scripture is useful (or profitable) - 2Tim 3:16. It does not say it is solely sufficient.


No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).

Sigh.

What does the previous verse says?

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

WISE UNTO SALVATION.

catholicism does not contradict Scripture?

Are you sure?

The rcc says that evolution is in line with Christianity and catholics can believe in it. This is CONTRARY to the Bible. the rcc says mary was sinless. this is CONTRARY to the Bible. the rcc says confess your sins to a priest. this is CONTRARY to the Bible. the rcc says mary can save you. this is CONTRARY to the Bible. the rcc says peter was "the rock". this is CONTRARY to the Bible. The rcc murdered MILLIONS of Christians. This is CONTRARY to the Bible.

Catholics DENY Jesus died ONCE for ALL.They DENY Jesus is our ONLY salvation.They DENY Jesus did away with the needs for priests.They DENY God forgives us of ALL sin.They DENY only God can forgive sins against God.They DENY we must worship God and God alone.They DENY God when He says "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God"

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
Sigh.

What does the previous verse says?

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

WISE UNTO SALVATION.

Doesn't say scripture is solely sufficient. Moreover when Paul wrote this the only Scripture that Timothy had was the Old Testament.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
catholicism does not contradict Scripture?

Are you sure?

I didn't say that. I said "No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted)"

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
The rcc .......

If you want to stop being offensive please stop using the term 'rcc'. The correct term is the Catholic Church, just as this is the Catholic forum.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
....that evolution is in line with Christianity and catholics can believe in it. This is CONTRARY to the Bible.

belief or otherwise in evolution is not a doctrine.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
.....mary was sinless. this is CONTRARY to the Bible.

What sin does the Bible say that Mary committed?

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
...confess your sins to a priest. this is CONTRARY to the Bible.

No it isn't

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
.....mary can save you. this is CONTRARY to the Bible.

The Catholic Church does not teach that.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
the rcc says peter was "the rock". this is CONTRARY to the Bible.

No it isn't

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
The rcc murdered MILLIONS of Christians. This is CONTRARY to the Bible.

That is a lie

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
Catholics DENY Jesus died ONCE for ALL.

Untrue

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
They DENY Jesus is our ONLY salvation.

Untrue

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
They DENY Jesus did away with the needs for priests.

Untrue

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
They DENY God forgives us of ALL sin.

Untrue

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02

They DENY only God can forgive sins against God.

Ultimately only God can forgive sins but if you tale that literally then you are in denial of scripture (Jn 20:23)

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
They DENY we must worship God and God alone.

Untrue

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:31:02
They DENY God when He says "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God"

Then you believe that infants can commit personal sin.


You have very little understanding of Catholic teaching. So far you have brought 27 charges against the Catholic Church and failed in all of them.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:23:17
WHICH Jesus are we talking about?

And, WHO determines the "genuinely" part?

I don't know. I didn't write the rules.

Ask a Moderator

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 12:58:11
In the end its the Bible that is our guide, and if something we believe isn't there, or if something contradicts what is there, we must discard it. This is why I couldn't go to a RC church because so many of their beliefs aren't in the Bible or contradict what the Bible says.

To be fair...

Protestant churches suffer from this as well.

We are struggling right now because our leadership is making signing on the dotted line, membership akin to spiritual health and following the leadings of some who call into question the validity of the salvation of those that DO NOT wish to become official members.

Scripture does not define membership the way some churches have.  They run away with their own understanding, trying to make it an absolute that just isn't there.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 15:23:17
WHICH Jesus are we talking about?

*IS* there more than one?

Quote
And, WHO determines the "genuinely" part?

Not us, thats why we shouldn't pretend we are right to do so.  If someone says they believe in Christ and follow Him, we should be willing to believe the best unless we see obvious contradictions, but even still, we don't know their heart.  Babes in Christ behave differently than mature believers do.

Quote from: winsome on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 13:24:42


No Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts scripture (properly interpreted).

Ahh, word games.

WHO has the presumed authority to "PROPERLY" understand and interpret these things?

Remember, the catholic "church" has ONLY officially interpreted 0.01% of the Bible.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 17:53:35
Ahh, word games.

Explain.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 17:53:35
WHO has the presumed authority to "PROPERLY" understand and interpret these things?

Those to whom Jesus Christ gave his teaching and the authority to do so, and those to whom they in turn passed on that teaching and authority.

You can see how it works in Paul's letters to Timothy.

He says to Timothy Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. (2Tim 1:13)
Paul has given Timothy sound teaching.

"Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us." (2Tim 1:14)
Timothy is to be a guardian of the truth that has been entrusted to him. He is to do this with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Then Paul instructs Timothy to pass this precious treasure of teaching on to others.
"You then, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus; and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well." (2Tim 2:1-2)
So Timothy in his turn is to entrust what he has been given to faithful people. Not just preaching to others but to pass on in trust this teaching to others he can be sure will guard it in their turn. Then they will be able to teach others as well.

Thus we have four generations – Paul – Timothy – those to whom Timothy entrusts the teaching – those who they pass it on to in turn.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Thu Dec 14, 2017 - 17:53:35
Remember, the catholic "church" has ONLY officially interpreted 0.01% of the Bible.

The Catholic Church came before the Bible.

Jesus passed on his teaching to the apostles before a word of the NT was written. We don't START with the Bible.

KiwiChristian,

I would like to continue this discussion but I'm having a lot of problems with posting. I keep crashing out when I post or modify a post.

I've raised this in the "Forum Issues and User Help" section. But if it can't be sorted I'm giving up on this forum.

I have posted on other forums and have no problems so it's something to do with this one.

Trying an experiment here

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 21:01:34
If the Bible is a Catholic book,

1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).

To which I replied:

Quote from: winsome on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 08:54:19
It doesn't

Here's why:
Mt 23:5-6 "They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honour at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues"

Four points:

1. Jesus was referring to the Scribes and Pharisees (vs 2). They are not clerical people. The clerics were the priests who were Levites

2. Jesus isn't condemning clerical dress. The tassels and phylacteries he refers to are part of the normal dress for any (male) Jew. They are not clerical.

Tassels - "Speak to the people of Israel, and bid them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put upon the tassel of each corner a cord of blue" (Num 15:38)

Phylacteries - "You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. (Dt 11:18)

3. Jesus was condemning how the Scribes and  Pharisees were acting. If you look at the context of the quote you will see that he is condemning their behaviour as shown by the verses either side of the ones referenced.

"so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice" (vs 3)
"they love the place of honour at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men" (vs 7)

4. If Jesus were condemning clerical dress then he would be contradicting scripture for it says in Ex 28: 2-4: that God ordered special garments to be made for priests:

"And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty. And you shall speak to all who have ability, whom I have endowed with an able mind, that they make Aaron's garments to consecrate him for my priesthood. These are the garments which they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a coat of checker work, a turban, and a girdle; they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother and his sons to serve me as priests."

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Mon Dec 11, 2017 - 21:01:34
If the Bible is a Catholic book,

2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).

To which I replied

Quote from: winsome on Wed Dec 13, 2017 - 08:54:19
Lk 11:27-28 doesn't

Here's why:
Luke 11:27-28. "As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, 'Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!' But he said, 'Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!'"

Two points

1.  Nowhere in those verses is the word adore or adoration. It says "blessed"

2. Jesus is not denying the blessedness of Mary. If he did he would be contradicting the word of God.

Elizabeth said:
"Most blessed are you among women." (Lk 1:42)
"And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:45)

Mary said "henceforth all generations will call me blessed" Lk 1:48)

The first of those two posts crashed out once but was then OK.