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IDOLATRY.

This is MAKING IMAGES.

The Catholic Council of Trent declares that: "It is lawful to have images in the church and to give honour and worship to them. ... Images are put in churches that they may be worshipped."


The Oxford dictionary defines an idol as: "An image used as an object of worship. A person or thing that is the object of excessive devotion." An Idolater is a devoted admirer of idols.


Answer: What does the Bible say about images and idols?

1. Exodus 20:4, 5.

a) Thou shalt not MAKE unto thee ANY graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


b) Thou shalt not BOW DOWN thyself to them.

c) Nor SERVE them.

If you make any graven image you've broken this commandment, whether you worship it or not.

Question 1: Do Catholics MAKE graven images? Yes.
Question 2: Do Catholics KNEEL down to statues of Mary or Jesus? Yes.
Question 3: Do Catholics SERVE Mary? Yes, as in "Legion of Mary."

2. Leviticus 26:1.

a) "You shall make you NO IDOLS nor GRAVEN IMAGE.
b) Neither rear you up a STANDING IMAGE.
c) Neither shall ye set up any IMAGE OF STONE in your land to bow down unto it."

Question 4: Do Catholics rear up STANDING IMAGES? Yes.

Question 5: Do Catholics set up any IMAGE OF STONE? Yes.

3. Deuteronomy 4:16. "Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and MAKE you a GRAVEN IMAGE, the similitude of ANY FIGURE, the likeness of MALE or FEMALE."

Question 6: Do Catholics make graven images of MALE or FEMALE? Yes.

Mary is a female. Jesus and the apostles are males.

4. Deuteronomy 16:22. "Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES."

Question 7: Do Catholics SET UP ANY IMAGES? Yes.

Question 8: Does God HATE IMAGES? Yes.

5. 1 Thessalonians 1:9. "How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God."


Question 9: Did the early Christians turn FROM IDOLS? Yes.

6. Deuteronomy 27:15. "CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place."


Question 10: Does God put a curse on any person that makes any image? Yes.

Question 11: Why does God call an image an ABOMINATION? Because He hates it.

7. Isaiah 40:18,19. "To whom then will ye liken God? or what LIKENESS will ye compare unto him? The workman melteth a graven image"

Note: God has no visible form and we cannot liken him to any material object.


The Catholic answer is that they say that they do not worship images. God's reply is not to MAKE IMAGES.

8. The early Christians had NO IMAGES.

Early Christian writers such as Irenaeus, Clement, Cyprian, Athanasius, and Jerome, wrote strongly AGAINST images, statues and any manner of prayer or veneration regarding them. The Council of Constantinople in 381 AD voted unanimously to remove all images from the churches.


9. The Catholic church removes the second commandment against MAKING graven images from the list of 10 Commandments in Exodus 20:1-17. This presents them with the problem of only having 9 commandments. They resolve this problem by splitting commandment number 10 into 9 and 10 as follows:


9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.


10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.

This is seen in the book "A brief summary of the Ten Commandments" by the Daughters of St. Paul, p.12,13:

WHAT ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD?

The Catholic Catechism The Bible

The Commandments of God are these ten:

"I am the Lord your God:
1. You shall not have strange Gods before me. 1. No other gods.
[omitted] 2. No Graven Images.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord 3. Don't take God's Name in vain.
your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day. 4. Keep Sabbath Day Holy.
4. Honor your father and your mother. 5. Honour Father and Mother.
5. You shall not kill. 6. Don't Murder.
6. You shall not commit adultery. 7. Don't Commit Adultery.
7. You shall not steal. 8. Don't Steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness 9. Don't bear False Witness.
9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife. 10. Don't Covet.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods." Exodus 20:1-17.

The number Two Commandment should be "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." 20:4
Check your Catechism to see if they have left it out.


Question: Why do you think they left it out?

10. Every Catholic institution has images of Mary, Jesus, male and female figures.

An example of this are two statues at the French Papal Palace of Avignon, one of Jesus about 10 metres above ground level, and the other is an enormous statue of Mary, much larger, grander and higher up than that of Jesus. This gives greater honour to Mary than to Jesus. It also clearly breaks the second commandment forbidding making images of things in heaven.


Question: Who do we believe, the Word of God or the Catholic Church?

"We ought to obey God, rather than men." Acts 5:29.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 23:56:32

The Catholic Council of Trent declares that: "It is lawful to have images in the church and to give honour and worship to them. ... Images are put in churches that they may be worshipped."

Kiwi,

Fair is fair...can you tell me where the Council of Trent states it is lawful to have images in the church and to give honor and worship to them?
I may be mistaken, but I don't think the Council of Trent makes this declaration.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 23:56:32
IDOLATRY.

This is MAKING IMAGES.

The Catholic Council of Trent declares that: "It is lawful to have images in the church and to give honour and worship to them. ... Images are put in churches that they may be worshipped."


The Oxford dictionary defines an idol as: "An image used as an object of worship. A person or thing that is the object of excessive devotion." An Idolater is a devoted admirer of idols.


Answer: What does the Bible say about images and idols?

1. Exodus 20:4, 5.

a) Thou shalt not MAKE unto thee ANY graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


b) Thou shalt not BOW DOWN thyself to them.

c) Nor SERVE them.

If you make any graven image you've broken this commandment, whether you worship it or not.

Question 1: Do Catholics MAKE graven images? Yes.
Question 2: Do Catholics KNEEL down to statues of Mary or Jesus? Yes.
Question 3: Do Catholics SERVE Mary? Yes, as in "Legion of Mary."

2. Leviticus 26:1.

a) "You shall make you NO IDOLS nor GRAVEN IMAGE.
b) Neither rear you up a STANDING IMAGE.
c) Neither shall ye set up any IMAGE OF STONE in your land to bow down unto it."

Question 4: Do Catholics rear up STANDING IMAGES? Yes.

Question 5: Do Catholics set up any IMAGE OF STONE? Yes.

3. Deuteronomy 4:16. "Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and MAKE you a GRAVEN IMAGE, the similitude of ANY FIGURE, the likeness of MALE or FEMALE."

Question 6: Do Catholics make graven images of MALE or FEMALE? Yes.

Mary is a female. Jesus and the apostles are males.

4. Deuteronomy 16:22. "Neither shalt thou SET thee UP ANY IMAGE: which the Lord thy God HATES."

Question 7: Do Catholics SET UP ANY IMAGES? Yes.

Question 8: Does God HATE IMAGES? Yes.

5. 1 Thessalonians 1:9. "How ye turned to God FROM IDOLS to serve the living and true God."


Question 9: Did the early Christians turn FROM IDOLS? Yes.

6. Deuteronomy 27:15. "CURSED be the man that MAKES ANY GRAVEN or MOLTEN IMAGE, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place."


Question 10: Does God put a curse on any person that makes any image? Yes.

Question 11: Why does God call an image an ABOMINATION? Because He hates it.

7. Isaiah 40:18,19. "To whom then will ye liken God? or what LIKENESS will ye compare unto him? The workman melteth a graven image"

Note: God has no visible form and we cannot liken him to any material object.


The Catholic answer is that they say that they do not worship images. God's reply is not to MAKE IMAGES.

8. The early Christians had NO IMAGES.

Early Christian writers such as Irenaeus, Clement, Cyprian, Athanasius, and Jerome, wrote strongly AGAINST images, statues and any manner of prayer or veneration regarding them. The Council of Constantinople in 381 AD voted unanimously to remove all images from the churches.


9. The Catholic church removes the second commandment against MAKING graven images from the list of 10 Commandments in Exodus 20:1-17. This presents them with the problem of only having 9 commandments. They resolve this problem by splitting commandment number 10 into 9 and 10 as follows:


9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife.


10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods.

This is seen in the book "A brief summary of the Ten Commandments" by the Daughters of St. Paul, p.12,13:

WHAT ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD?

The Catholic Catechism The Bible

The Commandments of God are these ten:

"I am the Lord your God:
1. You shall not have strange Gods before me. 1. No other gods.
[omitted] 2. No Graven Images.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord 3. Don't take God's Name in vain.
your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's day. 4. Keep Sabbath Day Holy.
4. Honor your father and your mother. 5. Honour Father and Mother.
5. You shall not kill. 6. Don't Murder.
6. You shall not commit adultery. 7. Don't Commit Adultery.
7. You shall not steal. 8. Don't Steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness 9. Don't bear False Witness.
9. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife. 10. Don't Covet.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's goods." Exodus 20:1-17.

The number Two Commandment should be "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image." 20:4
Check your Catechism to see if they have left it out.


Question: Why do you think they left it out?

10. Every Catholic institution has images of Mary, Jesus, male and female figures.

An example of this are two statues at the French Papal Palace of Avignon, one of Jesus about 10 metres above ground level, and the other is an enormous statue of Mary, much larger, grander and higher up than that of Jesus. This gives greater honour to Mary than to Jesus. It also clearly breaks the second commandment forbidding making images of things in heaven.


Question: Who do we believe, the Word of God or the Catholic Church?

"We ought to obey God, rather than men." Acts 5:29.

Oh boy, there you go again. Do you have a picture of your wife, mother, or child? According to you they must be graven images. Tell me, why did God allow Cherubim? They appeared in the Temple of Solomon, in the Temple of Ezekiel, and in the sacred Tabernacle. So you are wrong, God did indeed have no problem with images.

The problem arises when one worships the image as the deity, instead of what the image represents.  A picture or statue of Christ represents Christ, no more, no less. The image is not worshipped, Jeus the Christ is and the same goes for any other religious figure so represented.

Read the Book of Revelation, they are all over the place, plus there is incense and repetitive prayer - all going on in heaven no less!

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 23:56:32
IDOLATRY.

This is MAKING IMAGES.

The Catholic Council of Trent declares that: "It is lawful to have images in the church and to give honour and worship to them. ... Images are put in churches that they may be worshipped."

I noptice that protestans pull out these sort of quotes but don't give references so that they cannot be checked.

However I have tracked down the relevant document from Trent on Images and it does't say what you claim it says.

It is from the 25th session and is headed
ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS, OF SAlNTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES.

There is only one paragraph that has the word worshipped (or worship) in it and it says the opposite of what you claim

Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images.

Protestants can worship idols too.

Its foolishness to pick splinters while our own branch also has logs of idolatry in our own eye.

People pleasing, idolatry
Love of money, idolatry
love of self, idolatry
Even Church we attend, can become idolatry
on and on it goes...

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 10:50:04
Protestants can worship idols too.

Its foolishness to pick splinters while our own branch also has logs of idolatry in our own eye.

People pleasing, idolatry
Love of money, idolatry
love of self, idolatry
Even Church we attend, can become idolatry
on and on it goes...

True, especially in the church itself; Worship music, ministry works, leadership roles, etc, etc.

Quote from: Alan on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 10:56:07

True, especially in the church itself; Worship music, ministry works, leadership roles, etc, etc.

Politically Incorrect - and a Canadian? Oh my! (I like you folks from up there, but will you please stop sending the cold down here?)

P.S. Got lots of family there - in Ontario and Quebec.

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 11:11:22
Politically Incorrect - and a Canadian? Oh my! (I like you folks from up there, but will you please stop sending the cold down here?)

P.S. Got lots of family there - in Ontario and Quebec.

Hopefully the politically incorrect movement catches on, we've been inundated with our liberal government but thanks to POTUS many are seeing a new found hope in bold conservative leadership.

Quote from: Alan on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 11:28:56

Hopefully the politically incorrect movement catches on, we've been inundated with our liberal government but thanks to POTUS many are seeing a new found hope in bold conservative leadership.

Good luck. Your last conservative PM, Mr. Harper balanced the books and Mr. Trudeau wasn't in there a month before he went right back to deficit spending. I had an Aunt who was a big NDP supporter, can you imagine that?

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 08:49:10
Oh boy, there you go again. Do you have a picture of your wife, mother, or child? According to you they must be graven images. Tell me, why did God allow Cherubim? They appeared in the Temple of Solomon, in the Temple of Ezekiel, and in the sacred Tabernacle. So you are wrong, God did indeed have no problem with images.

Then God is a liar?

Lets look at SCRIPTURE. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Now, notice He is not talking about graven images ONLY? Yes or no? Do you see that?

The Pope deleted the 2nd of the 10 commandments so they could use statues & images in worship. They split the 10th commandment on coveting into two commandments so they could still have 10 in  number. Look at the list of 10 commandments published by the rcc! The issue here is not how the Ten Commandments are numbered, rather the issue is that most published lists of the 10 commandments do not include the words, "you shall not for yourself an idol".


The problem arises when one worships the image as the deity, instead of what the image represents.

Nope, thats not what the Bible says. God says dont make them. Period.

God DID specifically command CERTAIN statues to be made. The people did not make them off their own back, so to speak. Were they worshipped? No, were they bowed down to? No. Were the cerebrum on the ark of the covenant bowed down to or worshipped? No. Moses' brass snake was to demonstrate Gods healing power, so the people would know that their healing was from God and not just a coincidence, as you well know. Show me where God SPECIFICALLY commands us to make images of Mary and the pope and/or to bow to them? The Bible says not to make unto thee any images. If a person makes a statue or image of mary, angels, etc. then God has NOT commanded them to do that, so it is a sin.



A picture or statue of Christ represents Christ, no more, no less.

I understand that. But God says not to make them in the first place.

The image is not worshipped, Jeus the Christ is and the same goes for any other religious figure so represented.

Read the Book of Revelation, they are all over the place, plus there is incense and repetitive prayer - all going on in heaven no less!

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 05:43:53
Kiwi,

Fair is fair...can you tell me where the Council of Trent states it is lawful to have images in the church and to give honor and worship to them?
I may be mistaken, but I don't think the Council of Trent makes this declaration.

I am very careful to be able to back up everything i say, so yes, i can give you the reference.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent states these words: "It is lawful to have images in the Church, and to give honor and worship unto them...".

The twenty-fifth session of the Council of Trent decrees that the images of Christ and the Virgin Mary, and of the other saints, are especially to be had and retained in the churches, and that honor and veneration are to be paid to them.

Now, catholics try to justify this sin by changing the definition of the word "worship", but sorry, worship is worship.

worship:

"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity."

"show reverence and adoration for (a deity)."

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 19:58:02
Good luck. Your last conservative PM, Mr. Harper balanced the books and Mr. Trudeau wasn't in there a month before he went right back to deficit spending. I had an Aunt who was a big NDP supporter, can you imagine that?

My employer has a massive union membership, NDP runs through their veins. They are shocked when I say I will never support them.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 22:24:05
I am very careful to be able to back up everything i say, so yes, i can give you the reference.

THAT IS A LIE.
I showed that your quote was FALSE

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 22:24:05
The Catechism of the Council of Trent states these words: "It is lawful to have images in the Church, and to give honor and worship unto them...".

THAT IS A LIE, just as you previously LIED about what the Council of Trent stated.

The full quote from the Catechism is:

But the pastor should not content himself with showing that it is lawful to have images in churches, and to pay them honour and respect, since this respect is referred to their prototypes. He should also show that the uninterrupted observance of this practice down to the present day has been attended with great advantage to the faithful, as may be seen in the work of Damascene on images, and in the seventh General Council, the second of Nice.

Your LIE was a double one. Not only did you change the wording but you cut out a bit from the middle to make it appear so say something it didn't

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Thu Apr 12, 2018 - 22:24:05

Now, catholics try to justify this sin by changing the definition of the word "worship", but sorry, worship is worship.

Another LIE

Quote from: winsome on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:10:52
Another LIE

Worship:

"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity."

"show reverence and adoration for (a deity)."

winsome, i have you on ignore because of your past behavior.

i chose to address you a couple times, but generally, i will not waste my time with you.

Every Catholic institution has images of Mary, Jesus and male and female figures. An example of this are two statues at the French Papal Palace of Avignon, one of Jesus about 20 metres above ground level, and the other is an enormous statue of Mary, much larger, grander and higher up than that of Jesus. This gives the greater honour to Mary than Jesus. It also clearly breaks the second Commandment forbidding making images of things in heaven.

Job15:15 "Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight."

Cardinal Newman, in his book, "The Development of the Christian Religion," admits that ... "Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holidays and season of devotions, processions, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests and monks and nuns), images ... are ALL of pagan origin..." (Page 359).

From the very earliest days of the church there has been a tradition whereby images of our Lord, His holy mother, and of the saints are displayed in churches for the veneration of the faithful...this practice of placing sacred images in churches so that they can be venerated by the faithful is to be maintained. (Vatican II)

"The images of Christ and the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and to be kept, especially in Churches, and due honor and veneration are to be given them." Council of Trent, 25th sess. (1563).

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:25:23
Worship:

"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity."

"show reverence and adoration for (a deity)."

More selecting posting and lack of etymology.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:27:51
winsome, i have you on ignore because of your past behavior.

i chose to address you a couple times, but generally, i will not waste my time with you.

You mean you don't like me exposing your LIES

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:28:21
Cardinal Newman, in his book, "The Development of the Christian Religion," admits that ... "Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holidays and season of devotions, processions, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests and monks and nuns), images ... are ALL of pagan origin..." (Page 359).

And he was wrong. incense, vestments seasons of devotions, holy water (for example) are all from Judaism.

Moreover saying pagans do 'X'.
Catholics do 'X'
Therefore Catholics are pagans is not logical

By that logic we could say
Pagans bury their dead.
Christians bury their dead.
Therefore Christians are pagans

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:27:51
winsome, i have you on ignore because of your past behavior.

That's OK I shall continue to expose your LIES for all to see.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:38:58
From the very earliest days of the church there has been a tradition whereby images of our Lord, His holy mother, and of the saints are displayed in churches for the veneration of the faithful...this practice of placing sacred images in churches so that they can be venerated by the faithful is to be maintained. (Vatican II)

Where in Vatican II?

You claim you give references but you do not
Another LIE.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:38:58
"The images of Christ and the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and to be kept, especially in Churches, and due honor and veneration are to be given them." Council of Trent, 25th sess. (1563).

Another distortion of the truth by selective quoting.

Let's look at more of the sentence:
Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed  their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent;.....

Readers note-  KiwiChristian truncated the quote to give the impression that the honour and veneration is given to the images themselves but it to to those whom the images represent.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:28:21
An example of this are two statues at the French Papal Palace of Avignon, one of Jesus about 20 metres above ground level, and the other is an enormous statue of Mary, much larger, grander and higher up than that of Jesus.

And wgere is the evidence of this claim?

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Fri Apr 13, 2018 - 04:38:58
From the very earliest days of the church there has been a tradition whereby images of our Lord, His holy mother, and of the saints are displayed in churches for the veneration of the faithful...this practice of placing sacred images in churches so that they can be venerated by the faithful is to be maintained. (Vatican II)

What Kiwi doesn't note is that Mary and the Saints are only to be venerated as holy men and women, whereas Christ is worshiped as God.

Another thing that Kiwi neglects to mention is that it is not the statues themselves that are venerated, but the saints whom they represent.  The statues are only symbols made of plaster, stone, or metal.