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Quote from: fish153 on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 14:08:43

The problem is that preterists have their own definitions of words like "soon" etc,  believing "soon" could not possibly mean 2000 years.

Okay, but exactly the same thing can be said right back to you regarding your own definition of words, this time that "soon" has to mean "2,000+ years later."

You see, if it can mean that, then it means nothing.

soterion---

I understand where you are coming from----but think for a moment about preterism.  In 70 AD Jesus returned and Satan was bound or destroyed according to them, correct?

Yet, 95% of Christians believe that Jesus' 2nd coming is yet future. Hundreds of verses in the Bible have to do with "watching" for the return of Jesus Christ.  When Jeus
says "I am coming soon" do you believe he meant soon as in just a few years (70 AD) or "soon" as God sees the word? "A thousand years are like a day to the Lord"?
Why would God allow most of the New Testament to talk about a return that is going to take place in just a few years? (70 AD)  Why are all these references in
our Bibles NOW?  You know, there were a type of people like the preterists back in Paul's day:

"Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some".  (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

It is important to see this.  The Holy Spirit is telling us that there were people THEN, and there will be people NOW (see 2nd Peter) who will shake the faith of some by
stating Jesus has ALREADY COME, etc. It is a warning to us that we would do good to heed.

Good point fish153.

Regarding "soon",  this is a another case where I believe the KJV translators got it correct. They used the word "quickly". Which denotes suddeness & is a synonym to the use of the word quickly at that time because its definition at the time would be rapidly.

Also the understanding Christ's Second Advent is sudden, (quick, quickly), is inline with other texts, such as "a thief in the night". Which in context does not mean a sneak thief but moreso a marauder. People did not fear a petty sneak thief. They feared a marauder, the very reason cities, villages, & compounds had walls. A maruader would attack at night when folks were vulnerable & unaware,(sudden) then pillage all that was valuable, then burn the rest. Which is very similar to what Peter describes in 2 Peter 3.

Quote from: fish153 on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 18:20:38
soterion---

I understand where you are coming from----but think for a moment about preterism.  In 70 AD Jesus returned and Satan was bound or destroyed according to them, correct?

Like I already said, I don't agree with that view.

Quote
Yet, 95% of Christians believe that Jesus' 2nd coming is yet future. Hundreds of verses in the Bible have to do with "watching" for the return of Jesus Christ.  When Jeus
says "I am coming soon" do you believe he meant soon as in just a few years (70 AD) or "soon" as God sees the word? "A thousand years are like a day to the Lord"?
Why would God allow most of the New Testament to talk about a return that is going to take place in just a few years? (70 AD)  Why are all these references in
our Bibles NOW?  You know, there were a type of people like the preterists back in Paul's day:

"Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some".  (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

There is such a disparity between what you and I believe here, and it is not where you think the disagreements are.

I believe in the Second Coming of Christ in the future. I am among those 95%. However, the term "coming" as referred to God/Jesus does not always mean "Second Coming." Also, I do not believe Revelation is about His Second Coming at all.

Quote
It is important to see this.  The Holy Spirit is telling us that there were people THEN, and there will be people NOW (see 2nd Peter) who will shake the faith of some by
stating Jesus has ALREADY COME, etc. It is a warning to us that we would do good to heed.

Of course, nobody should teach the fallacy that the Second Coming has occurred.

Regarding Revelation 1:1-3 and 22:6 & 10, the words "shortly take place" and "at hand" are used, I believe, to mean just what the words mean to us today and to what they would have meant to the people of the seven churches. They would not be given warnings about things that will take place thousands of years from their time and be told to heed the things written therein, when those things have nothing to do with them. We have to understand the book from their point of view, since it was written specifically to them regarding their near future.

Again, if "shortly come to pass" and "at hand" can mean "thousands of years from now," then those phrases mean nothing to those churches. We read the highly figurative language of the book, then we say that any literal interpretation has not yet occurred, so therefore the events described have not yet happened. I believe that is a very bogus hermeneutic.

Revelation is written with very figurative/symbolic language, and what the figures/symbols mean have to be applied to the seven churches in their time of receiving the book, or the whole stated occasion of the book is being ignored.

If you want to know more specifically what I think about it, then read the following:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-judgment-seat-of-christ-99153/msg1055100153/#msg1055100153

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/rapture-tribulation-debate/msg1055099098/#msg1055099098

Quote from: TonkaTim on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 19:00:32
Good point fish153.

Regarding "soon",  this is a another case where I believe the KJV translators got it correct. They used the word "quickly". Which denotes suddeness & is a synonym to the use of the word quickly at that time because its definition at the time would be rapidly.

Also the understanding Christ's Second Advent is sudden, (quick, quickly), is inline with other texts, such as "a thief in the night". Which in context does not mean a sneak thief but moreso a marauder. People did not fear a petty sneak thief. They feared a marauder, the very reason cities, villages, & compounds had walls. A maruader would attack at night when folks were vulnerable & unaware,(sudden) then pillage all that was valuable, then burn the rest. Which is very similar to what Peter describes in 2 Peter 3.

I think most translations use "quickly" in Revelation 22:10; at least the ones I am looking at. I believe whatever is meant by "quickly" in 22:20 should be understood in line with the following verses.

In the 1611 Edition, as well as the 1796 Edition, I read in Revelation 1:1 & 3, "...things which must shortly come to pass...for the time is at hand." In Revelation 22:6 & 10, I read, "...the things which shortly must be done...the time is at hand."

Jesus is being asked to come quickly and bring about the fulfillment of what is written to those churches, those things which must soon take place because the time is at hand for them.

Quote from: soterion on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 20:07:54
I think most translations use "quickly" in Revelation 22:10; at least the ones I am looking at. I believe whatever is meant by "quickly" in 22:20 should be understood in line with the following verses.

In the 1611 Edition, as well as the 1796 Edition, I read in Revelation 1:1 & 3, "...things which must shortly come to pass...for the time is at hand." In Revelation 22:6 & 10, I read, "...the things which shortly must be done...the time is at hand."

Jesus is being asked to come quickly and bring about the fulfillment of what is written to those churches, those things which must soon take place because the time is at hand for them.

(I was discussing 22:12 above)

Regarding your assumption, take a look at the Greek in verses 1:3 & 22:10

Verse 3 would be the verse that would be strongest for you case because it denotes nearness in time ; καιρὸς(time) ἐγγύς(near) which is very similar to 22:10 καιρὸς(time) γὰρ(for, actually) ἐγγύς(near)

But in reality it doesn't when you imply it only applies to "to the people of the seven churches" & "not be given warnings about things that will take place thousands of years from their time"

Why do I say this?

Well, because in 1:19 Christ informs John:
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter"

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are dealing with three time periods in context to John's present; 'hast seen"- past, "things which are" - present, "shall be hereafter" γενέσθαι (occur/take place) μετὰ(after) ταῦτα(these) future.  Only some of it applies to the Seven Churches era because some of it is past, while other parts is future. Which is the same reason those who apply to solely to the future err as well as those who apply it solely to the past.


That same past, present, future is also evident in say 17:8:
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"

was - past, is - present, shall - future. (relative to John's present).

So yes some of these things in the book are very relative to the era(present) of John & the seven churches, but not exclusive to that era. Thus the time & events of that era is near or at hand is correct, but again, not solely exclusive to that era & does not exclude future or negates the suddenness of 22:12.

Quote from: TonkaTim on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 20:59:27

Well, because in 1:19 Christ informs John:
"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter"

In the Revelation of Jesus Christ we are dealing with three time periods in context to John's present; 'hast seen"- past, "things which are" - present, "shall be hereafter" γενέσθαι (occur/take place) μετὰ(after) ταῦτα(these) future.  Only some of it applies to the Seven Churches era because some of it is past, while other parts is future. Which is the same reason those who apply to solely to the future err as well as those who apply it solely to the past.

Just because some of it is future does not have to mean our future, just future to those people in their time. Any futurists view can pick and choose what they want to apply to our future, when the book gives zero permission to do so. And, such a futurist view is dependent, as far as I have seen, on some literal fulfillment of the very figurative language. The figures and symbols are not mean to be understood literally. Any and everything that is referred to as "hereafter" again has to understood as the future of those people in their context according to the stated occasion of the book.

Quote
That same past, present, future is also evident in say 17:8:
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"

was - past, is - present, shall - future. (relative to John's present).

So yes some of these things in the book are very relative to the era(present) of John & the seven churches, but not exclusive to that era. Thus the time & events of that era is near or at hand is correct, but again, not solely exclusive to that era & does not exclude future or negates the suddenness of 22:12.

Again, I believe the beast is a Roman emperor future to the time of Revelation having been written, but in our past. In Revelation 22:10-12, Jesus is again being asked to come and quickly fulfill what is written concerning Roman persecution and the deliverance of the seven churches.

Quote from: soterion on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 21:24:15
Just because some of it is future does not have to mean our future, just future to those people in their time. Any futurists view can pick and choose what they want to apply to our future, when the book gives zero permission to do so. And, such a futurist view is dependent, as far as I have seen, on some literal fulfillment of the very figurative language. The figures and symbols are not mean to be understood literally. Any and everything that is referred to as "hereafter" again has to understood as the future of those people in their context according to the stated occasion of the book.

I agree with most of this & why noted "three time periods in context to John's present" & "(relative to John's present)"

Quote from: soterion on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 21:24:15
Again, I believe the beast is a Roman emperor future to the time of Revelation having been written, but in our past. In Revelation 22:10-12, Jesus is again being asked to come and quickly fulfill what is written concerning Roman persecution and the deliverance of the seven churches.

By beast I assume you mean this beast:
Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Which is associated with the Dragon:
Revelation 12
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Which is why I referenced it in the above post citing chapter 17 verse 8:
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"

Based on the three time eras requirements in the Book, it could not be a kingdom of John's present "is not", thus it is not Imperial Rome.

Quote from: TonkaTim on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 21:41:51

Which is why I referenced it in the above post citing chapter 17 verse 8:
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"

Based on the three time eras requirements in the Book, it could not be a kingdom of John's present "is not", thus it is not Imperial Rome.

I am looking at the beast as one of the eight kings mentioned in Rev 17:8-11. John writes that five have fallen, one is (#6, I believe this is Vaspasian, Revelation having been written during his reign), the next is coming but will last a little while (#7), and then #8, which was and is not (meaning not yet). I see this as Domitian. He is like Nero, one of the first five, who persecuted the churches.

I am sure we will continue to not see eye to eye, and that's okay. If my salvation depends on a perfect view of Revelation, I know I'm a goner.

Quote from: soterion on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 22:04:33
I am looking at the beast as one of the eight kings mentioned in Rev 17:8-11. John writes that five have fallen, one is (#6, I believe this is Vaspasian, Revelation having been written during his reign), the next is coming but will last a little while (#7), and then #8, which was and is not (meaning not yet). I see this as Domitian. He is like Nero, one of the first five, who persecuted the churches.

I am sure we will continue to not see eye to eye, and that's okay. If my salvation depends on a perfect view of Revelation, I know I'm a goner.

I too agree it was written during Vespasian"s reign.

Consider this text when identifying the Kings;
Revelation 17
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is

We have a kingdom (beast) that "is not", but yet have the king, that "one is".

Which means that kingdom's fall is recent to John's present because the king, that "one is"

Interesting, huh? What Kingdom (beast) of significance fell during that era?

I totally disagree with the take you both have on Revelation 17.  I believe strongly that the 7 "kings" are empires.  When John wrote (5) had fallen,
one was (Roman Empire) and one was yet to come.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition". (Revelation 17)

Please note that the eigth King is "of the seven".  He is a world conqueror which shall come back from the abyss to reign again.  Perhaps Alexander
the Great?  The eighth king is not a separate kingdom---he is "of the seven" that have existed. According to John after Rome one more empire will
rise. After that one of the kings from the past will return (He is presently in the abyss--he "was, is not, yet is")

I don't believe the 7 kings is talking about Roman Emperors at all.

Apparently the following church "Fathers" did not believe Satan was bound. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

QuoteTHE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE EPHESIANS CHAPTER 13

EXHORTATION TO MEET TOGETHER FREQUENTLY FOR THE WORSHIP OF GOD

[LONGER]
Take heed, then, often to come together to give thanks to God, and show forth His praise. For when ye come frequently together in the same place, the powers of Satan are destroyed, and his "fiery darts" urging to sin fall back ineffectual. For your concord and harmonious faith prove his destruction, and the torment of his assistants. Nothing is better than that peace which is according to Christ, by which all war, both of aerial and terrestrial spirits, is brought to an end. "For we wrestle not against blood and flesh, but against principalities and powers, and against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places."


THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TARSIANS

CHAPTER 2

CAUTIONS AGAINST FALSE DOCTRINE

I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance; others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. Others, again, hold that He is a mere man, and others that this flesh is not to rise again, so that our proper course is to live and partake of a life of pleasure, for that this is the chief good to beings who are in a little while to perish. A swarm of such evils has burst in upon us. But ye have not "given place by subjection to them, no, not for one hour." For ye are the fellow-citizens as well as the disciples of Paul, who "fully preached the Gospel from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum," and bare about "the marks of Christ" in his flesh.


THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE PHILIPPIANS

CHAPTER 4

THE MALIGNITY AND FOLLY OF SATAN

And indeed, before the cross was erected, he (Satan) was eager that it should be so; and he "wrought" [for this end] "in the children of disobedience." He wrought in Judas, in the Pharisees, in the Sadducees, in the old, in the young, and in the priests. But when it was just about to be erected, he was troubled, and infused repentance into the traitor, and pointed him to a rope to hang himself with, and taught him [to die by] strangulation. He terrified also the silly woman, disturbing her by dreams; and he, who had tried every means to have the cross prepared, now endeavored to put a stop to its erection; not that he was influenced by repentance on account of the greatness of his crime (for in that case he would not be utterly depraved), but because he perceived his own destruction [to be at hand]. For the cross of Christ was the beginning of his condemnation, the beginning of his death, the beginning of his destruction. Wherefore, also, he works in some that they should deny the cross, be ashamed of the passion, call the death an appearance, mutilate and explain away the birth of the Virgin, and calumniate the [human] nature itself as being abominable. He fights along with the Jews to a denial of the cross, and with the Gentiles to the calumniating of Mary, who are heretical in holding that Christ possessed a mere phantasmal body. For the leader of all wickedness assumes manifold forms, beguiler of men as he is, inconsistent, and even contradicting himself, projecting one course and then following another. For he is wise to do evil, but as to what good may be he is totally ignorant. And indeed he is full of ignorance, on account of his voluntary want of reason: for how can he be deemed anything else who does not perceive reason when it lies at his very feet?


THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS

CHAPTER 2

THE JEWISH SACRIFICES ARE NOW ABOLISHED

Since, therefore, the days are evil, and Satan possesses the power of this world, we ought to give heed to ourselves, and diligently inquire into the ordinances of the Lord. Fear and patience, then, are helpers of our faith; and long-suffering and continence are things which fight on our side. While these remain pure in what respects the Lord, Wisdom, Understanding, Science, and Knowledge rejoice along with them. For He hath revealed to us by all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices, nor burnt-offerings, nor oblations, saying thus, "What is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me, saith the Lord?


CHAPTER 18

SECOND PART OF THE EPISTLE THE TWO WAYS

But let us now pass to another sort of knowledge and doctrine. There are two ways of doctrine and authority, the one of light, and the other of darkness. But there is a great difference between these two ways. For over one are stationed the light-bringing angels of God, but over the other the angels of Satan. And He indeed (i.e., God) is Lord for ever and ever, but he (i.e., Satan) is prince of the time of iniquity.


IRENAEUS AGAINST HERESIES

BOOK 3

12. For all those who are of a perverse mind, having been set against the Mosaic legislation, judging it to be dissimilar and contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel, have not applied themselves to investigate the causes of the difference of each covenant. Since, therefore, they have been deserted by the paternal love, and puffed up by Satan, being brought over to the doctrine of Simon Magus, they have apostatized in their opinions from Him who is God, and imagined that they have themselves discovered more than the apostles, by finding out another God; and [maintained] that the apostles preached the Gospel still somewhat under the influence of Jewish opinions, but that they themselves are purer [in doctrine], and more intelligent, than the apostles.


CHAPTER 16

PROOFS FROM THE APOSTOLIC WRITINGS, THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS ONE AND THE SAME, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, PERFECT GOD AND PERFECT MAN

1. .........................................................
I judge it necessary therefore to take into account the entire mind of the apostles regarding our
Lord Jesus Christ, and to show that not only did they never hold any such opinions regarding Him; but, still further, that they announced through the Holy Spirit, that those who should teach such doctrines were agents of Satan, sent forth for the purpose of overturning the faith of some, and drawing them away from life.


BOOK 5

CHAPTER 26

2. ...........................................................
Let those persons, therefore, who blaspheme the Creator, either by openly expressed words, such as the disciples of Marcion, or by a perversion of the sense [of Scripture], as those of Valentinus and all the Gnostics falsely so called, be recognized as agents of Satan by all those who worship God; through whose agency Satan now, and not before, has been seen to speak against God, even Him who has prepared eternal fire for every kind of apostasy.

As is obvious, the above writers and many others which could be quoted throughout the history of "Christianity" never believed that satan had already been bound for a thousand years.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Apr 28, 2018 - 17:09:07Apparently the following church "Fathers" did not believe Satan was bound. All emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

As is obvious, the above writers and many others which could be quoted throughout the history of "Christianity" never believed that satan had already been bound for a thousand years.

Nothing you quoted says that Satan was/is not bound.  Read my reply #83 so that you will understand what God says about Satan being bound.  You who always complain that others do not believe what God says now seem not to believe what God says.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 06:16:20
Nothing you quoted says that Satan was/is not bound.  Read my reply #83 so that you will understand what God says about Satan being bound.  You who always complain that others do not believe what God says now seem not to believe what God says.

I read your post #83. While containing some truth, as in those in Christ are delivered from Satan's deceptions if they remain in Christ, the man point is incorrect. Satan is still actively deceiving the nations, and will continue to do so until Christ returns again. The only nation that is not presently being deceived by Satan, and will not ever  be deceived, is the spiritual nation of Israel who are in Christ. Observe the following -

Rev 1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The book of Revelation was written after Christ conquered Satan on behalf of humanity, and is a revelation from Jesus Christ Himself regarding things which would shortly begin to pass. The book records the ongoing battle between Christ and His followers, and Satan and his followers till the end of this world when Christ returns. Satan is depicted as deceiving all the nations and world in this account. The dragon who is the devil gives almost all of he beasts of prophecy their power up to the last beast at the end. The book of Revelation depicts the war between Christ and Satan for hearts and minds of all humanity. All must choose whom they serve before Christ returns, and both are extremely active in winning over their followers. Christ through truth, and Satan through deception.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 10:47:16I read your post #83. While containing some truth, as in those in Christ are delivered from Satan's deceptions if they remain in Christ, the man point is incorrect.

So then you believe that the author of Hebrews didn't know what he was talking about when he said,

Heb 2:14  Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:15  and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

'Tis a pity.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 12:48:30
So then you believe that the author of Hebrews didn't know what he was talking about when he said,

Heb 2:14  Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Heb 2:15  and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

'Tis a pity.

I do believe that scripture, I just also know that the rest of scripture expounds more upon the subject of death and when it will be conquered in finality. It is conquered now by faith, faith in that which in the future will become reality according to the testimony of God's chosen prophets. Scripture does not and should not be used to negate scripture. It is important to take all scripture concerning any topic or subject into consideration before making doctrine out of the same. Let's add a little context to the scripture you quoted which reveals a different take than your are portraying.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The promise of victory over death in Christ is sure, though scripture itself reveals the timing of its literal end for the saved at our Lord and Saviors return. The above verses though do not portray the picture you are attempting to paint with them. Christ became one of us in order to deliver us from death and temptation. Being tempted as we are, He is able to thoroughly relate to and help us in times of temptation. Yes, Christ's own in this world will continue to be tempted by the devil as Christ was as well, but now we have one of our own selves as our advocate and help in the hour of temptation. This is certainly not a picture or promise to us that Satan has already been bound and can no longer tempt us or the nations. To the contrary, it testifies to the exact opposite effect. We will still have to battle the temptations of the evil one as all before us have, and all after us will, short of Christ's second coming. At which time scripture conclusively testifies, "death will be swallowed up in victory."

1 For 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death..................................................
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 15:18:58
Christ became one of us in order to deliver us from death and temptation. Being tempted as we are, He is able to thoroughly relate to and help us in times of temptation. Yes, Christ's own in this world will continue to be tempted by the devil as Christ was as well, but now we have one of our own selves as our advocate and help in the hour of temptation. This is certainly not a picture or promise to us that Satan has already been bound and can no longer tempt us or the nations. To the contrary, it testifies to the exact opposite effect. We will still have to battle the temptations of the evil one as all before us have

Amo, you're making it about temptation when the verse says deceive; deceive the nations.

You're making the binding of Satan all about temptation, not deception.


Even without Satan we as humans will suffer temptation due to our corrupt fallen bodies. The very reason Paul wrote:
Romans 7
"8 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Now our corruption begins with Satan in the Garden when Eve chose to believe the lie of Satan over the truth of God. Deception.

That persisted till God destroyed the world with the Flood.
Persisted even after that at Babel.
Persisted in the world when God called Abraham.
Persisted when Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt
Kept persisting till Christ.

The whole world had been deceived & believed the father of all lies. Man worshiped creatures not the Creator. Man worshiped idols not God. They worshiped demons not Christ.

They did so because Satan was what Jesus called him, the prince of this world.
He is the strong man Jesus told us about. He had to be bound, chained, limited in his ability to deceive.
We know this happened with the work of Christ.
For Millenia, beginning with just the few, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has gone into the world conquering & plundering the prince's house, bringing the lost sheep into the fold of the Good Shepherd.

To me this is blatantly obvious. It is what has happened.

So much so it appears to me we may now be in the little season because we are seeing such apostasy. We have several folks on this little forum board vehemently arguing against the Deity of Christ & tolerated. What was once the strongholds of Christianity & formerly called Christendom, who sent missionaries all around the world, are now mostly secular nations promoting Secular Humanism. And, what is left, the remnant of Christianity, too much is filled with heresy. The Prosperity gospel has reduced God down to a magic genie there to fulfill all ones carnal desires. Grace is preached that it abounds so greatly that men can live lives of hedonistic carnal pleasure, open & unrepentant sinners, & still call themselves Christian. They even place folks who live openly in total rebellion & enmity to the morality of God in the pulpit. Tickling the ears of men. Returning back to the lies & wickedness of the past; deceived.

The time for the return of our Lord is drawing closer now than ever before.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Quote from: TonkaTim on Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 16:23:43
Amo, you're making it about temptation when the verse says deceive; deceive the nations.

You're making the binding of Satan all about temptation, not deception.


Even without Satan we as humans will suffer temptation due to our corrupt fallen bodies. The very reason Paul wrote:
Romans 7
"8 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Now our corruption begins with Satan in the Garden when Eve chose to believe the lie of Satan over the truth of God. Deception.

That persisted till God destroyed the world with the Flood.
Persisted even after that at Babel.
Persisted in the world when God called Abraham.
Persisted when Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt
Kept persisting till Christ.

The whole world had been deceived & believed the father of all lies. Man worshiped creatures not the Creator. Man worshiped idols not God. They worshiped demons not Christ.

They did so because Satan was what Jesus called him, the prince of this world.
He is the strong man Jesus told us about. He had to be bound, chained, limited in his ability to deceive.
We know this happened with the work of Christ.
For Millenia, beginning with just the few, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has gone into the world conquering & plundering the prince's house, bringing the lost sheep into the fold of the Good Shepherd.

To me this is blatantly obvious. It is what has happened.

So much so it appears to me we may now be in the little season because we are seeing such apostasy. We have several folks on this little forum board vehemently arguing against the Deity of Christ & tolerated. What was once the strongholds of Christianity & formerly called Christendom, who sent missionaries all around the world, are now mostly secular nations promoting Secular Humanism. And, what is left, the remnant of Christianity, too much is filled with heresy. The Prosperity gospel has reduced God down to a magic genie there to fulfill all ones carnal desires. Grace is preached that it abounds so greatly that men can live lives of hedonistic carnal pleasure, open & unrepentant sinners, & still call themselves Christian. They even place folks who live openly in total rebellion & enmity to the morality of God in the pulpit. Tickling the ears of men. Returning back to the lies & wickedness of the past; deceived.

The time for the return of our Lord is drawing closer now than ever before.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

All temptation is in regards to deception. A state of existence only allowed by God until it is understood and eradicated from existence with the acknowledged approval of all the saved and created beings.

Simply denying the bibles clear references to Satan being active in the deception of the world up until it's end at Christ's return, does not make those references go away. They are there, and there meaning is clear to all who are not in denial of the same in support of a pet doctrine or theory.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Are you not deceived yourself by one of the above in these latter times? Yes you are, thus you deny the above testimony and claim the devil is no longer able to deceive.

Quote from: Amo on Sat May 05, 2018 - 09:55:11
All temptation is in regards to deception. A state of existence only allowed by God until it is understood and eradicated from existence with the acknowledged approval of all the saved and created beings.

Simply denying the bibles clear references to Satan being active in the deception of the world up until it's end at Christ's return, does not make those references go away. They are there, and there meaning is clear to all who are not in denial of the same in support of a pet doctrine or theory.

1 Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Are you not deceived yourself by one of the above in these latter times? Yes you are, thus you deny the above testimony and claim the devil is no longer able to deceive.

Matthew 12
" 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."
Mark3
"27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."
John 12
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I believe Jesus.


Why I said:

Quote from: TonkaTim on Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 16:23:43
The whole world had been deceived & believed the father of all lies. Man worshiped creatures not the Creator. Man worshiped idols not God. They worshiped demons not Christ.

They did so because Satan was what Jesus called him, the prince of this world.
He is the strong man Jesus told us about. He had to be bound, chained, limited in his ability to deceive.
We know this happened with the work of Christ.
For Millenia, beginning with just the few, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has gone into the world conquering & plundering the prince's house, bringing the lost sheep into the fold of the Good Shepherd.

Are you saying this is not so?

What latter times?  The end of the old covenant age. (so obvious!)
"All" in Revelation was to happen soon. 
Rev.22:6
John and the Angel

6 The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."( emph. mine)

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 29, 2018 - 15:18:58I do believe that scripture.

I am going to pull an Amo here.  You don't believe what the Word of God really says.  Here is what the Bible says about the binding of Satan.

The Binding of Satan

The first three verses of Revelation 20 describes an event that surely sends a thrill through every Christian's heart; the binding of Satan.  The text says,

   1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

My Strong conviction is that Jesus bound the devil when he came the first time.  Many find it extremely difficult to accept this idea, mainly because they hear the words "binding of Satan" and formulate their own idea of what this must mean before they examine the Biblical data.  If Satan is bound, they think, then there should not be any sin or even temptation on the earth.  But sin obviously was not eliminated by Christ's first coming and is still abundant on the earth today.  Would one not have to be blind to think that Satan is bound in times like these?

The key to understanding the binding of Satan is to pay close attention to what the Bible actually says about it, not only in Rev 20:1-3 but elsewhere in the NT as well.  Regarding the latter we begin with the way Scripture describes the purpose of Christ's first coming.  Among other things, it is specifically taught that Jesus came to deal with the devil.  1 John 3:8 says,  "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."  Among Satan's works are falsehood and death (John 8:44; Heb 2:14), but Jesus came "to testify to the truth" (John 18:37; see John 8:31-47).  He has already "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10).

Jesus came not only to destroy Satan's works but to "destroy" Satan himself.  Hebrews 2:14 clearly states that Jesus came the first time "so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death – that is, the devil"  The word rendered "destroy" by the NIV (katargeo) does not necessarily mean "to annihilate, to abolish  completely."  Obviously Jesus did not do this to Satan at his first coming.  But the word also can mean "to set aside, to make ineffective, to nullify, to render powerless."  This is the better understanding here, as in the NASB: Christ come to "render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."

Either way this is very strong language.  John says Jesus came specifically to destroy the devil's works;  Hebrews says he came to render the devil powerless.  We must ask, if this is why Jesus came, did he actually accomplish these things or did he fail?  Surely it would be blasphemous to say the latter.  Therefore we conclude that Jesus destroyed Satan's works and rendered him powerless from "the binding of Satan" in Rev 20:1-3).  If anything, the language of 1 John and Hebrews is even stronger than that of Revelation 20.

What about the expression, "the binding of Satan"?  Does this specific language appear elsewhere in Scripture"  The answer is yes.  In Matt 12:29 (and Mark 3:27) it is used to describe what Jesus was doing during his first advent.  Throughout Jesus earthly ministry he was already limiting Satan's power, especially through his many victorious encounters with demonic spirits who had taken over people's bodies.  By casting out demons Jesus was demonstrating his power over Satan's kingdom; he was winding the chains around the devil's neck.

Jesus made this very claim in connection with an exorcism recorded in Matt 12:22-30 (see Mark 3:22-27; Luke 11:14-23).  Here Jesus explains that in casting out demons he is not working with Satan but against him.  He uses the illustration of a strong man who is holding people captive in his house, and a stronger man who attacks and overpowers the captor and sets the captives free (Luke 11:21-22).  As he explains in Matt 12:29, "or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry of his property, unless he first binds the strong man?  And then he will plunder his house."  By casting out demons Jesus was already in the process of binding the devil (the "strong man") during his earthly ministry.

Jesus also gave his disciples the authority to cast our demons (Matt 10:1).  In Luke 10:1-20 he sent out 70 evangelists with similar authority.  When they returned, they joyfully reported, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name" (Luke 10:17).  Jesus replied, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning" (Luke 10:18).  Satan's "fall from heaven" here is not his prehistoric, initial sin; it refers to the defeat he was experiencing through Christ's power at the hands of the disciples at that very time.  This is the same event described symbolically in Rev 12:7-9,

And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.  The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.  And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Again this is not Satan's initial sin, but his defeat at the hands of the Messiah at the latter's first coming (Rev 12:1-6).

The death blow against Satan was struck in the death and resurrection of Jesus (see Gen 3:15; John 12:31-33; Col 2:15).  On the eve of his crucifixion Jesus announced his imminent mortal combat with the devil (John 14:30).  Through his own death he rendered Satan powerless (Heb 2:14), and through his resurrection the victory was complete.  The risen victor declares, "I am the first and the last, the living One, and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades " (Rev 1:17-18).  The keys here are the same as "the key of the abyss" in Rev 20:1.  A key is symbolic of power and authority.  Through his death and resurrection Jesus gained power over the abyss – realm of death, Satan's proper domain; and with that power he both locks Satan himself in the abyss and rescues those who have been held captive there (Heb 2:15).  Revelation 20:1-3 thus symbolically represents Christ's present control over Satan and his works, and the consequent limitation of his power.

Some will still be skeptical that "the binding of Satan" has been a reality since Christ's first coming.  Again this is because they have created their own idea of what this should entail, i.e., the earth should be a perfect place, free from sin and filled with righteousness, peace, and prosperity.  But this is not how things have been.  So how can this be the millennium?  How can we accept the idea that Satan is bound now?  We can do this if we do not jump to unwarranted conclusions about the results of Satan's binding.  Does the Bible actually say that this binding will result in a paradise-like world?  No.  In fact, Rev 20:3 states very specifically that the single purpose of Satan's binding is "so that he would not deceive the nations any longer."

The question is whether this was actually a result of Christ's first coming, and the answer is yes.  Satan's main activity is deception.  John 8:44 says, 'he is a liar and the father of lies."  Revelation 12:9 describes him, prior to his defeat at Christ's first coming, as the one "who deceives the whole world,"  He is the source of lies, false teachings, false religions, and all idolatry.  With the exception of Israel, prior to Christ's first coming the entire world – all nations as nations – was totally engulfed in Satan's lies, languishing in darkness (see Rom 1:18-32).  But what happened when Christ came?  He accomplished the works of redemption, thus defeating the devil and his hosts.  The gospel  --  the good news about the saving power of Christ  --  is the gospel truth that dispels Satan's lies and brings light and life to all the world (2 Tim 1:10),

This is exactly how the risen Jesus described Paul's mission to the Gentiles, i.e., to the nations: "to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me" (Acts 26:18).  this tells us that prior to the preaching of the gospel, the nations were in darkness; they were the domain of Satan.  But as the gospel has been preached "to all the nations" in obedience to the Great Commission (Luke 24:47; see Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16:15), multitudes "from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" (rev 7:9) have been delivered from captivity to the devil.  In terms of Rev  20:1-3, the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the chain that binds Satan, so that is not able to deceive the nations any longer.

This does not mean that Satan is doing nothing today.  He still roams about, like a roaring lion, seeking to devour us (1 Pet 5:8).  But Christ has established a safety zone, as it were, a place where Satan has no power.  It is the church, which is the realm over which Christ reigns in his millennial kingship, a haven from the forces of death (Matt 16:18), and "the pillar and support of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15).  Anyone who accepts the truth of the gospel and surrenders to the Lordship of Christ is rescued from captivity to Satan and set free to live beyond the reach of his lying mouth and slashing claws.

The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals.  When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life.  Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29).  Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations.  Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3,

Quote from: 4WD on Tue May 08, 2018 - 16:31:25

The Binding of Satan

The first three verses of Revelation 20 describes an event that surely sends a thrill through every Christian's heart; the binding of Satan.  The text says,

   1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

My Strong conviction is that Jesus bound the devil when he came the first time.  Many find it extremely difficult to accept this idea, mainly because they hear the words "binding of Satan" and formulate their own idea of what this must mean before they examine the Biblical data.  If Satan is bound, they think, then there should not be any sin or even temptation on the earth.  But sin obviously was not eliminated by Christ's first coming and is still abundant on the earth today.  Would one not have to be blind to think that Satan is bound in times like these?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that during the age of the Church, Satan is bound?

That brings to mind this following scripture Paul taught around 60AD.
Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Why worry about it?)

Thanks.

Quote from: larry2 on Tue May 08, 2018 - 19:18:05If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that during the age of the Church, Satan is bound?

That brings to mind this following scripture Paul taught around 60AD.
Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Why worry about it?)

Thanks.

The last paragraph of what I posted:

Quote from: 4WD on Tue May 08, 2018 - 16:31:25
The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals.  When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life.  Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29).  Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations.  Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3,

Quote from: larry2 on Tue May 08, 2018 - 19:18:05
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that during the age of the Church, Satan is bound?

That brings to mind this following scripture Paul taught around 60AD.
Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (Why worry about it?)

Quote from: 4WD on Tue May 08, 2018 - 16:31:25
The Binding of Satan
The results of Christ's initial binding of Satan are bestowed on individuals.  When one makes his choice to follow Christ instead of Satan, the almighty power of Jesus Christ binds the devil in reference to that person's life.  Jesus has already bound the strong man as such; when we preach the gospel and convert individuals, we are in effect plundering the strong man's house and carrying off his property (Matt 12:29).  Because this has already been done on a worldwide basis, with practically every nation being exposed to Christ's liberating power to some degree, it can no longer be said that Satan is deceiving the Nations.  Therefore, in terms of Rev 20:1-3,

Thanks for clarifying that for me. Would you then say, or is your position that just because a person receives Jesus into their lives does not ensure protection against Satan? In other words they must commit to never sin?

Another question on this if you will, when were the nations ever taught?

Quote from: larry2 on Wed May 09, 2018 - 12:09:26
Thanks for clarifying that for me. Would you then say, or is your position that just because a person receives Jesus into their lives does not ensure protection against Satan? In other words they must commit to never sin?

The Holy Spirit is given as a helper, not as insurance against difficulties.

Quote from: larry2Another question on this if you will, when were the nations ever taught?

I didn't say the nations were ever taught.  But that is, however, a commandment that we Christians have been given (Matt 28:19-20).  And I would add that by this time, the gospel has been preached to one extent or another in most of the world.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed May 09, 2018 - 18:08:07

I didn't say the nations were ever taught.  But that is, however, a commandment that we Christians have been given (Matt 28:19-20).  And I would add that by this time, the gospel has been preached to one extent or another in most of the world.

Just when do you suppose Jesus will take that "All power given Him in heaven and earth" of Mt 28:18, and begin "putting down all rule and all authority and power" of 1 Cor 15:24. Will the teaching to the nations dubbed the Great Commission be done during the millennium?

Aren't the instructions for this present time those of Mark 16:15 ? And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature, and it was done? Rom 10:18  But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Will these following scriptures come to pass in that day?
Isa 19:25  Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Heb 2:8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. For in that He put all in subjection under Him, he left nothing that is not put under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him (Jesus).

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:02:01
2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

When, and where does this occur?

The First Liturgical Year of the Judgment began during the Civil Year of 2015 A.D. (2015 A.D. - 2016 A.D.) because it contains the 1,335th day of Daniel 12:12, Ascension Sunday, May 8, 2016 A.D., which contains the blessing for those who wait and come unto that day.

Jesus Christ has (and shall forever more do) shortened the days in this regard in the infinite universe.

Quote from: fish153 on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 14:08:43
soterion---

I think the Scripture is very clear about this---and Amo was attempting to share that.  The problem is that preterists have their own definitions of words like "soon" etc,  believing "soon" could not possibly mean 2000 years.  I believe the bible is very clear that Satan is at work during this present age, and has not been bound or destroyed.  And I think that 95% of Christendom would agree with that.  Sorry, but have to disagree with you there.

Quote from: soterion on Mon Apr 23, 2018 - 17:27:29

Okay, but exactly the same thing can be said right back to you regarding your own definition of words, this time that "soon" has to mean "2,000+ years later."

You see, if it can mean that, then it means nothing.

I'm sorry Solterion that I just noticed this post, but would you consider the interpretation of words such as the term "The Lord's Day"? Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . . According to Rev 4:2, that is the day a throne was set (placed) in heaven, and One sat on the throne, and that One was Jesus.

It will be at that time that Jesus exercises that all power and authority He has been given in Mt 28:18. The Apostle John was caught forward in time as it were to be shown things that would be hereafter from that point in time, and those things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 4:1).

Quote from: fish153 on Wed Apr 11, 2018 - 10:33:30
Larry----

When jesus returns the saints will be raptured and the Tribulation will begin.  During this period taking place on earth, the Judgment seat of Christ will take place. the FINAL JUDGMENT will occur at the very end of time (after Satan has been bound for a thousand years and the Millenium has occurred)---
the Judgment Seat of Christ is an entirely different event and takes place much earlier than the final judgment.

Dear Brother Fish, please forgive me for not seeing your reply here prior to this. Somehow I'm not receiving emails or notices to all replies, and yet I receive some.   

I can say amen to your reply and thanks.

Quote from: the_sign on Thu May 10, 2018 - 00:50:05

The First Liturgical Year of the Judgment began during the Civil Year of 2015 A.D. (2015 A.D. - 2016 A.D.) because it contains the 1,335th day of Daniel 12:12, Ascension Sunday, May 8, 2016 A.D., which contains the blessing for those who wait and come unto that day.

Jesus Christ has (and shall forever more do) shortened the days in this regard in the infinite universe.

Good morning The_Sign. The word "Liturgical" means religious to my understanding, and I'm interested what you're saying began 2015 A.D. - 2016 A.D, and your reasoning behind it. Thanks.

Quote from: larry2 on Thu May 10, 2018 - 05:00:22

I'm sorry Solterion that I just noticed this post, but would you consider the interpretation of words such as the term "The Lord's Day"? Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . . According to Rev 4:2, that is the day a throne was set (placed) in heaven, and One sat on the throne, and that One was Jesus.

It will be at that time that Jesus exercises that all power and authority He has been given in Mt 28:18. The Apostle John was caught forward in time as it were to be shown things that would be hereafter from that point in time, and those things which must shortly come to pass (Rev 4:1).

We have already been there and done that. Go back and reread our posts to each other in the first two pages on this thread.

To sum up my position from this thread and others we have posted to:

1. Jesus is ruling now on the throne with all of the authority given to Him. This rule began after His resurrection.
2. The Lord's Day in Rev 1 is simply a first day of the week. John wasn't taken out of the time and place he was physically in to receive the visions.
3. Jesus is not on the throne in Rev 4:1-5:14. The One on the throne in that context of John's vision is the Father.

I will be glad to answer any other questions or clarify anything you would like...just ask.

Quote from: soterion on Thu May 10, 2018 - 08:42:21

Jesus is ruling now on the throne with all of the authority given to Him.

Any idea why all usurping nations aren't brought into Jesus' control, and he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power? Let's see, you're saying that Jesus has been working at that now for close to 2000 years?

Quote from: larry2 on Thu May 10, 2018 - 09:35:52
Any idea why all usurping nations aren't brought into Jesus' control, and he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power? Let's see, you're saying that Jesus has been working at that now for close to 2000 years?

It seems quite clear in all of this that you really are terribly confused about what the gospel is all about.  You are using the Calvinist definition of "in control" and that is completely false.

Quote from: 4WD on Thu May 10, 2018 - 10:17:54

It seems quite clear in all of this that you really are terribly confused about what the gospel is all about.  You are using the Calvinist definition of "in control" and that is completely false.

Sounds like a typical reply from someone who can't answer the question.   

Quote from: larry2 on Thu May 10, 2018 - 10:23:57
Sounds like a typical reply from someone who can't answer the question.   

I think the question has been answered many times.  You just don't like the answer.  He is in control.  He, like the Father, is sovereign and all power and authority has been given Him in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18).