Christian Forums

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:24:49

QuoteVery well, it is not by evolution. Accretion theory perhaps? Just the same, it's some theory that man came up with.

You've confused "theory" and "hypothesis."    When scientists come up with a possible explanation, it's a hypothesis.   After a hypothesis has been repeatedly verified by evidence, it's a theory.   Would you like to know how we can be sure enough about it to qualify as a settled theory?

Nice deviation sir. The point is, even while you claim to be sure enough of what you are saying, the truth is, you really are not. What you have there is a guess which you have found a way to convinced yourself that it is what you make of it to be. But then, even no matter how much one is convinced by himself of anything to be something, it may well be the truth for him, but it does not make that something to be the truth. It's a vain exercise, I would have to say. If at all you want to know the truth, the Christian you claim you are, you should know where to find it.

If you had spent much time studying the physical through science and was good at it, perhaps you can devote some time studying the spiritual through the Spirit and be good at it. You can start by studying why the Son had to come down from heaven in relation to the truth.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:24:49

QuoteConvinced in themselves, by their scientific work and minds

Evidence.   Every hypothesis makes testable claims.  If those claims, when tested, are repeatedly shown to be correct, then and only then can it be considered a theory.

Yes, evidence so you always point to. Evidence which may and may not be accepted by anybody to be. And exactly what I said, that by the things you accepted to be evidence by your scientific work and minds, are convinced in yourselves, that they are what you guessed they were. It's your guess and your self conviction.

Repetition may well lead to conviction, but may as well lead to deception.   

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:24:49

Quoteaccepted it to be that which happened and how it happened. The bottom line is, it is a guess

You're confusing "hypothesis" and "theory" again. 

No sir. I am not even talking of hypothesis and theory.

Can you honestly tell God that it is certainly by the scientific theory of evolution is how He created mankind? If not, then all you have there is a guess, a hypothesis, a theory, or what have you, and not the truth. And if it's not the truth, then I'm pretty sure you know what it is so that I don't need to tell you what it is.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:24:49

Quoteand that not one of them, including you, really knows for certain.

We don't know for certain that the Sun will appear in the east, tomorrow morning.   But we have enough evidence that denying it is foolish.  Theories are like that.

Our knowing not for certain that the sun will appear in the East tomorrow morning does not refute what I said. In fact it supports it. And that is not a theory, but is truth.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:24:49

Quotewhen does your scientific calculation say that something had evolved to what you refer to be the "earth"?

QuoteBarbarian observes:
You're a bit confused.  Populations of living things evolve.   Perhaps you'd be less confused if you used Darwn's term: "descent with modification."  Let's do that so you don't get mixed up in the discussion.

QuoteYou're right I am. Why wouldn't I?
I'd be less confused if I stick to God, in His words in scriptures, as they are revealed.

You would do best if you stopped accepting men's revisions of His word.

Well, what made you think I accept men's word in relation to God's word? Well, I don't. As I said, I stick to God's words. If there be any man whose word I accept, are the men chosen and inspired by God, such as are Paul, Peter, John, et al.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:24:49

QuoteAnd going a bit more further, when does your scientific calculation say that the evolution had reached the stage where the things spoken of in Genesis, as that of the Garden of Eden had come to that form?

QuoteBarbarian asks:
Why is that a concern?

QuoteNot really a concern,

Probably not a good idea to bring it up, then.

Not if you say that to evade it. For you have cut short what I said there. So that the readers may not be mislead, here's a complete version of my post: "Not really a concern, but more of an inquiry in relation to your concern of showing that God created man as spoken in Genesis, is by evolution. And since evolution deals with time, so I ask. So, what is the scientific calculation to that?"

Your evasion tells a lot about you sir.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:24:49

Quote
Barbarian observes:
Science isn't about the supernatural.   Would it offend you if Adam had been a Neandertal or H. erectus instead of H. sapiens sapiens?    Why would that matter?

Science can't support your faith for you.   If faith isn't enough, you're pretty much out of luck.

QuoteBeing offended is not an issue in our discussion, as also science supporting my faith isn't an issue at all.

Then, perhaps, you should accept, as most Christians do, that it isn't important to know.

There is no truth that I would not want to know and no truth that is not important to know. But truth comes from God. And truth is known through the Holy Spirit and in the writings of inspired men of God about His works, not through scientists and in their writings about his works. 

Anyway, I can see that you don't have any answer to my question. That's okay. I perfectly understand why. No need to find excuse.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:24:49

QuoteJesus Christ is more than enough for me. He is everything to me. How about you?

Well, He's not my wife.   He isn't my house.   He isn't a lot of things.   But  He is my Lord and Savior.   Focus on that, and you won't be bothered by the other things.

So, as you confessed, Jesus Christ is not a lot of things to you.

Is He not your God?
Is He not your life?
Is He not your shepherd?
Is He not your teacher?
Is He not your brother?
Is He not your friend?
Is He not your King?
.....and so on.

That is truly what makes the difference.

I invite you to make Him your everything, and you won't be bothered by anything nor anybody, not even by Darwin, Einstein, et al.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:32:06

QuoteIt's good that you believe that souls did not evolve.
But the soul pre-existing? What you have in Jer. 1:5 does not teach anything close to that.

Of course, it does.  Explicitly so.   It says that long before the man's body existed, God knew him.

You are not paying attention to what I posted sir.  Besides, knowing Jeremiah before Jeremiah actually was born, does not say that Jeremiah's soul existed prior to his birth.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:32:06

QuoteBesides, that only concerns Jeremiah, not mankind.

So you're claiming that God created Jeremiah's soul before his body was formed, but He doesn't do that for other men?    Why do you assume that?

No sir. Jer. 1:5 does not say that God created Jeremiah's soul before his body was formed. That's your contention, not mine. What Jer.1:5 says is

Jer.1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

For God to know Jeremiah before he formed him in the womb, does not mean Jeremiah's soul must have to literally exist. If you know God, that He is all knowing, and that to Him, those things which do not exist are as though they did, you will understand that.   

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:32:06

QuoteIn that passage, God identified Himself to be sovereign over Jeremiah.

And God is not sovereign over other men who follow Him?   How do you figure that?

And who is saying that God is not sovereign over other man? Not me.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:32:06

QuoteOne is that He foreknew him before he was born,

If you have to change "knew" to "foreknew" to make your point, isn't that an important fact to consider?

I did not change "knew" to "foreknew" sir. The verse says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". If you just put a little thought about that, it calls for the foreknowledge of God for that to make sense.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:32:06

Quotesecond is God had caused him to be born

So your claim is that other men are not caused to be born by God?   How so?

While there is not one man that comes to existence without the knowledge of God and God forming them in the womb, there are men whom God had elected and chosen to carry out some specific purpose. And one of them is Jeremiah. For a better appreciation of this, consider Isaac.

I thought you knew that all along.

Since you brought this up, here's a question for you. I'm sure you are aware that through science, scientists today have devised ways to reproduce a being. And that is by artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, cloning and embryonic splitting, or cleavage.

Who do you say caused the men born out of these artificial means to be born, God or the scientists?

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:32:06

Quoteand third is that God had separated him for a holy service.

Do you not believe each one of us is called to serve God?   

None of your objections to scripture make any sense.

I believe all men must serve God. And while all may well be called, not all were specifically chosen such as Jeremiah, as also were Moses, Peter and Paul, et al.

I would not be surprised if you don't find any sense in what I said regarding the scriptures you cited in support of what you believe and of your take of certain scientific theories, if you don't claim to be a Christian. But since you do, then I'm surprised about that.

 

QuoteVery well, it is not by evolution. Accretion theory perhaps? Just the same, it's some theory that man came up with.

Barbarian observes:
    You've confused "theory" and "hypothesis."    When scientists come up with a possible explanation, it's a hypothesis.   After a hypothesis has been repeatedly verified by evidence, it's a theory.   Would you like to know how we can be sure enough about it to qualify as a settled theory?

QuoteNice deviation sir.

Correction.   You confused "hypothesis" and "theory."

QuoteIf you had spent much time studying the physical through science and was good at it, perhaps you can devote some time studying the spiritual through the Spirit and be good at it. You can start by studying why the Son had to come down from heaven in relation to the truth.

If you spent more time listening to God, you would probably not need science to help your faith.

QuoteYes, evidence so you always point to. Evidence which may and may not be accepted by anybody to be.

Doesn't matter if you accept it or not.  There's an objective reality.    Instead of worrying about what science says, try to align yourself with what God says.

QuoteCan you honestly tell God that it is certainly by the scientific theory of evolution is how He created mankind?

Why does it bother you so that He did?   You're putting your faith in what men told you about scripture, instead of what scripture says.   You need to trust God.  If not, then all you have there is a guess, a hypothesis, a theory, or what have you, and not the truth. And if it's not the truth, then I'm pretty sure you know what it is so that I don't need to tell you what it is.


We don't know for certain that the Sun will appear in the east, tomorrow morning.   But we have enough evidence that denying it is foolish.  Theories are like that.

QuoteOur knowing not for certain that the sun will appear in the East tomorrow morning does not refute what I said.

Scripture refutes what you said.   In fact, God doesn't care about your opinion on evolution.   Your salvation depends on other things that He does care about.   Find out what those things are, and then follow that.

QuoteI'd be less confused if I stick to God, in His words in scriptures, as they are revealed.

That's what I've been telling you.  You would do best if you stopped accepting men's revisions of His word.

QuoteAnd going a bit more further, when does your scientific calculation say that the evolution had reached the stage where the things spoken of in Genesis, as that of the Garden of Eden had come to that form?

As you learned, science is about the physical universe.   You keep trying to use science to shore up your faith.    It won't do that for you.  Science isn't about the supernatural.   Would it offend you if Adam had been a Neandertal or H. erectus instead of H. sapiens sapiens?    Why would that matter?

QuoteBeing offended is not an issue in our discussion, as also science supporting my faith isn't an issue at all.

I see your denial, but your behavior suggests that it's the core issue here.

QuoteThere is no truth that I would not want to know and no truth that is not important to know.

It is true that there are 83 blocks on my front porch, but it doesn't strike me as important to know that.

QuoteBut truth comes from God.

I just counted.   Perhaps if you trusted Him in all things, it would be easier.

QuoteAnd truth is known through the Holy Spirit and in the writings of inspired men of God about His works, not through scientists and in their writings about his works.

It is true that mass distorts space.   But we found out by going to see.   God gave us intelligence and curiosity to learn things like that.   

QuoteAnyway, I can see that you don't have any answer to my question.

The answer to your discomfort isn't something I can give you.   You have to come to terms with yourself and your relationship with God.

QuoteJesus Christ is more than enough for me. He is everything to me. How about you?

    Well, He's not my wife.   He isn't my house.   He isn't a lot of things.   But  He is my Lord and Savior.   Focus on that, and you won't be bothered by the other things.

QuoteSo, as you confessed, Jesus Christ is not a lot of things to you.

To me, He's my Lord and Savior.   My God.   That seems like a lot to me, although perhaps not to you.

I invite you to trust Him even to the point of accepting creation His way, and you won't be bothered by anything nor anybody, not even by Darwin, Einstein, et al.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 19:37:35

QuoteSaying that according to God, life was produced from something, from previously created things is a deceptive lie.

Well, let's take a look...

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.'

How can these be lies?   They are the word of God.

I'll take it from this that you agree with 4WD that life is produced, not given. But if you disagree with him that God is said to create only ex nihilo, so that man is not created by God in that sense, then you are a bit out of context here.

Nonetheless, let me comment on your post here.

The scriptures you cited are definitely not lies. And I did not say they are, how dare I?

All the cited verses speaks of God creating by "And God said"...

Whatever is created there by God, as to be said as "living creatures" are those which God created to have the breathe of life. This breathe of life is not something produced nor created by God, for life is in God. And God is life. As God is eternal, life is so. And as God is not produced nor created and so is life. No life comes out of or evolve from out of anything that does not have life and is not life.

Consider the creation of man, wherein God in scriptures gave some detail:

Gen. 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 22:49:17

QuoteSo you believe your body was created by evolution.

Barbarian chuckles:
Actually, the species H. sapiens was created by evolution.   

No matter how you play that with words sir, it is the physical, the flesh, the body, that was a product of that evolution that you speak about. That what body you and I have now was brought about by the evolution theory that you speak about. You believe that, but I don't.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 22:49:17

QuoteIndividuals don't evolve.   Populations do.

Individuals don't evolve.   Populations do.

Then why not say that you are not an evolved creature? If then each of us is not an evolved creature, when we are taken together, will we be said to be an evolved population? That does not add up sir.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 22:49:17

QuoteOn the other hand, I believe God created it, not by evolution, but formed it in my mothers womb

QuoteBarbarian observes:
I'm pretty sure my body wasn't formed in your mother's womb.   Truthfully, I don't remember the event, but I have a lot of evidence to the contrary.

QuoteWell then, stick with your evidence sir. I'll stick to God's words.

God says I was formed in your mother's womb?   (Barbarian checks)  Nope.  He doesn't.

Of course God did not say you were formed in my mother's womb. So now, if it's not a typo (which I ignored), you can cut your nonsense there. It isn't funny at all. Perhaps, it's time for you to get funny? Just say so.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 22:49:17

QuoteI can see here that you believe that the soul is immortal. May I know the scriptures that supports this?

Quote(God says human souls are immortal)
    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

    Daniel 12:2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

QuoteNothing in there sir.

It's God's word.   If our souls go to everlasting life, or everlasting contempt, the key is "everlasting."   That's what immortal souls are.   You can like it, or you can dislike it, but that's what God says.   I believe Him.    You should, too.

It's not scientific.  It's just God talking about our everlasting souls.   

Nobody says the cited scriptures are not God's words.

There's simply nothing in those verses that says man's (in his unsaved state) soul is immortal.

Anything that is immortal is exempt from death.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteIf you had spent much time studying the physical through science and was good at it, perhaps you can devote some time studying the spiritual through the Spirit and be good at it. You can start by studying why the Son had to come down from heaven in relation to the truth.

If you spent more time listening to God, you would probably not need science to help your faith.

And who says I need science to me of my faith? Are you hearing voices elsewhere sir?

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteCan you honestly tell God that it is certainly by the scientific theory of evolution is how He created mankind?

Why does it bother you so that He did?   You're putting your faith in what men told you about scripture, instead of what scripture says.   You need to trust God.  If not, then all you have there is a guess, a hypothesis, a theory, or what have you, and not the truth. And if it's not the truth, then I'm pretty sure you know what it is so that I don't need to tell you what it is.

Any lie bothers me sir. Even lies taken to be truth by most people.

And again, who told you I'm putting my faith in what men told me about scriptures? You're hearing voices again sir. You ought to be careful and prayerful.

So, apparently you can't honestly tell God that it is certainly by the scientific theory of evolution is how He created mankind. Finally. 

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

Quote
We don't know for certain that the Sun will appear in the east, tomorrow morning.   But we have enough evidence that denying it is foolish.  Theories are like that.

QuoteOur knowing not for certain that the sun will appear in the East tomorrow morning does not refute what I said.

Scripture refutes what you said.   In fact, God doesn't care about your opinion on evolution.   Your salvation depends on other things that He does care about.   Find out what those things are, and then follow that.

Well, I don't have an opinion on evolution. I am not one of those who made that up. But I think you are, if not, one who have fellowship with those who did.

Deviation to salvation again sir? Aren't you tired of doing that yet?
If you want to talk about salvation, which I say is better for you than this thread, I invite you to participate in the salvation topics in this forum. I'd be glad to see you there.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteI'd be less confused if I stick to God, in His words in scriptures, as they are revealed.

That's what I've been telling you.  You would do best if you stopped accepting men's revisions of His word.

And that's what I've been doing sir. And perhaps you can do the same.

Scientists tends to complicate things more than simplify. So, the confusion, especially of the non-scientists.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteAnd going a bit more further, when does your scientific calculation say that the evolution had reached the stage where the things spoken of in Genesis, as that of the Garden of Eden had come to that form?

As you learned, science is about the physical universe.   You keep trying to use science to shore up your faith.    It won't do that for you.  Science isn't about the supernatural.   Would it offend you if Adam had been a Neandertal or H. erectus instead of H. sapiens sapiens?    Why would that matter?

And I am asking you about the physical, not spiritual. The time when evolution had reached the stage where the things spoken of in Genesis, as that of the Garden of Eden had come to that form concerns the physical earth. How can that be anything about my faith? I'm questioning your belief and teaching of the scientific evolution, accretion, or what have you. This is what this thread is all about, and not about faith. 

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteBeing offended is not an issue in our discussion, as also science supporting my faith isn't an issue at all.

I see your denial, but your behavior suggests that it's the core issue here.

Denial? Are you hearing voices again? Forget about that, and just stick to the subject matter. That is if you don't want to be excused.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteThere is no truth that I would not want to know and no truth that is not important to know.

It is true that there are 83 blocks on my front porch, but it doesn't strike me as important to know that.

Well, it may not be to you. But if it is the truth, telling it to me, no matter how irrelevant that may be to me in so many ways, is important to me, because you told me the truth. When I hear truth, no matter how insignificant, I hear God. When I hear lie, I hear the devil.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteBut truth comes from God.

I just counted.   Perhaps if you trusted Him in all things, it would be easier.

Isn't it easier for you in your case? Too sad.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteAnd truth is known through the Holy Spirit and in the writings of inspired men of God about His works, not through scientists and in their writings about his works.

It is true that mass distorts space.   But we found out by going to see.   God gave us intelligence and curiosity to learn things like that.

I'm sure God gave us intelligence and curiosity for many reasons. But to learn things like how He created the universe, I don't think so. He did not give you intelligence to know what He had not intended for you to know. Just look where scientists are led by their curiosity. They have this human cloning thing, artificial insemination, et al. That is a statement that they wanted to be like God, don't you think so? All these are dangerous works which could lead to destruction. Care to read Gen. 11. We ought to learn from God in scriptures, not from man.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

QuoteAnyway, I can see that you don't have any answer to my question.

The answer to your discomfort isn't something I can give you.   You have to come to terms with yourself and your relationship with God.

I am not at all seeking answers for any discomfort. And if there may be so, I won't come to you for answers. You aren't anything close to my God, the God of comfort. Rather, it is a matter of exposing deceptive lies to the light for all to see.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 01:34:12

Quote Jesus Christ is more than enough for me. He is everything to me. How about you?

Quote   Well, He's not my wife.   He isn't my house.   He isn't a lot of things.   But  He is my Lord and Savior.   Focus on that, and you won't be bothered by the other things.

QuoteSo, as you confessed, Jesus Christ is not a lot of things to you.

To me, He's my Lord and Savior.   My God.   That seems like a lot to me, although perhaps not to you.

I invite you to trust Him even to the point of accepting creation His way, and you won't be bothered by anything nor anybody, not even by Darwin, Einstein, et al.

He is your Lord and Savior, your God. I'm always glad to hear such profession of faith. But, I hope you would not deny him as your King, as your teacher, as your friend, as your life, as your shepherd. But that's your choice to make.

As to your invitation, I trust God in everything, and accept creation His way as He revealed in scriptures, but not your way, the way of science, as scientists say by evolution.

Being not bothered by lies is not something I see myself becoming. I always will try to stand up for the truth and try to fight the lies, for the love of God and my neighbor. Although perhaps you won't.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 22:30:57So, Geneses 1:1 goes

In the beginning, God created extraordinarily high temperature, high density energy.

And if He had, what do you think Moses, or the rest of humanity before the 20th century, would have made of that?  It certainly would not have said anything to them about creation.  It would have been a meaningless statement to them, just as it is to you today.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 22:41:30Nothing in there sir. Perhaps if scriptures is scientific writings, you would understand it better.

Perhaps if you were more proficient in the English language you would understand the English Scriptures better.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 04:19:29
Perhaps if you were more proficient in the English language you would understand the English Scriptures better.

Perhaps sir. Thank you.

And perhaps if you just will not evade whatever that obviously refutes your take on creation, it would make you be a better apologist.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 04:30:25
Perhaps sir. Thank you.

And perhaps if you just will not evade whatever that obviously refutes your take on creation, it would make you be a better apologist.

You certainly have nothing that refutes my take on creation.  In fact you don't even understand the basic meaning of the words contained in the Scriptural presentation of that creation. Pathetic but true.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 05:27:37
And I agree with what God had Moses write.  His testimony is not faulty reasoning.  His is not reasoning at all; his is simply writing as God directed.  The reasoning lies with you.  You regularly attribute faulty reasoning to fallen humanity and since you are one of the fallen humanity, you by your own charge engage in faulty reasoning. The joke is not in what Moses wrote; he wrote as God directed.  The joke is always in the interpretation.  It is, or should be, evident that what God directed Moses to write about creation in Genesis was not to be taken as a literal account of God's work of creation.

OK. Please explain the real meaning of God's word given to Moses for us. If you agree with those words, then surely you understand them, do you not? If you cannot even explain what they actually mean, how can you agree with them? You don't even really know what they mean. Why would it be a joke for people to believe what Moses' words actually literally say, but not a joke when someone says they agree with those words but do not even know what they really mean? Do you understand that which you claim to agree with or not? If you do, please explain the words of the creation account according to that understanding for us. If you cannot, why should anyone believe you?

Also, why did God command Moses to write a commandment to be observed commemorating the creation account as a literal event, when He knew He didn't even mean for that account to be taken literally? Every single Jew or otherwise that has ever kept the seventh day Sabbath, does so in commemoration of God's personal testimony by word of mouth and in written form, that He created the world in six days and rested on the seventh. So you believe God commanded people to commemorate an event that never really happened, and then even punished them many times over for not doing so, is this correct? Why are such illogical reasonings not a joke, while just believing what God's word simply says is? According to Moses, God said and wrote the following -

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,................................
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Was God lying? Did Moses lie when he wrote that God spoke and wrote the above words? If God did not intend for the creation account to be taken literally, then why did He exactly and conclusively state that it was a literal event thousands of years after the fact?

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Did God lie again, or did Moses lie again? What is the truth? How can you be so sure that what you say is truth, when you cannot even explain what you believe according to scripture? The scriptures describe it as a literal event in Genesis, God said that it was literal when speaking to the entire nation of Israel, said the same thing to Moses twice, and wrote it twice for him and all Israel twice also. Nevertheless, if what you contend is true, all those statements were lies. To the extent that all who would actually believe them are a joke, according to you. Go figure.

https://answersingenesis.org/charles-darwin/darwinism/religion-of-nature-social-darwinism/

The Religion of Nature: Social Darwinism

A good read regarding some of the major ill effects of Darwinism.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 09:39:45
OK. Please explain the real meaning of God's word given to Moses for us. If you agree with those words, then surely you understand them, do you not? If you cannot even explain what they actually mean, how can you agree with them?

The words were given for us to observe the physical aspects of nature, it's a progression that we can witness as the mystery is further revealed to us with each new discovery. The words were never designed to be a paint by numbers for simpletons that cannot grasp critical thought processes.

QuoteI did not change "knew" to "foreknew" sir.

You certainly did.   The verse says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you".   You changed "knew" to "foreknew."   If you must alter the word of God to make your point, that's a pretty good indication that you got it wrong.

QuoteHe is your Lord and Savior, your God. I'm always glad to hear such profession of faith.

I'm puzzled as to why you objected when I pointed out that He is not everything.  (I mentioned that He's not my wife, and that he's not my house, for examples)   He can't be everything for you, if you're a Christian.   Pantheism is not consistent with Christian belief.

QuoteAs to your invitation, I trust God in everything,

Then why would you accept man's revision of scripture?  Why not just accept it His way?

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 05:36:49
You certainly have nothing that refutes my take on creation.  In fact you don't even understand the basic meaning of the words contained in the Scriptural presentation of that creation. Pathetic but true.

So, why do you evade this and not address it? All you have done with this is evasion. If you evade this here yet again it would be the third time. And if perhaps I'll give you the opportunity to address it a hundred times, you would have evaded it easily a hundred times too. So, here's your opportunity to not evade it.

4WD said that God didn't create the body, but that it grew from a fertilized egg, the joining of the ovum and sperm. He believes that is not creation since he takes creation to mean only to make something out of nothing. On the other hand, I see that as God creating the body.

You see, if we take 4WD's understanding of creation, then what did God create? Not man, not any living thing, not the earth, and basically nothing for that matter. For 4WD believes what scientists have come up with regarding the plants, animals, man, that all are a product of evolution, that is, coming from something else and so not created, since he takes creation only as ex nihilo. Do you agree with him on that?

Here's your take of creation:

1. God creates ex nihilo only.
2. God created the heavens and the earth (figuratively) to refer to some extraordinarily high temperature, high density energy, where every other thing evolved from and was produced.

If God creates only ex nihilo, then:

3. God did not create the heavens and earth (literally).
4. God did not create the grass, plants and trees.
5. God did not create birds, beast and creeping creatures.
6. God did not create the human body.
7. God did not create anything except some extraordinarily high temperature, high density energy.

Truth from God's words in scriptures:

1. God created the heavens and the earth.
2. God created the grass, plants, and trees.
3. God created living creatures, birds, sea creatures.
4. God created cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth.
5. God created man, male and female.
6. God created all things that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 11:15:32

You see, if we take 4WD's understanding of creation, then what did God create? Not man, not any living thing, not the earth, and basically nothing for that matter. For 4WD believes what scientists have come up with regarding the plants, animals, man, that all are a product of evolution, that is, coming from something else and so not created, since he takes creation only as ex nihilo. Do you agree with him on that?

Absolutely, although just because that is what I believe it doesn't mean that God didn't have a plan.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 11:10:08

QuoteI did not change "knew" to "foreknew" sir.

You certainly did.   The verse says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you".   You changed "knew" to "foreknew."   If you must alter the word of God to make your point, that's a pretty good indication that you got it wrong.

I did not change "knew" to "foreknew" sir. The verse says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". If you just put a little thought about that, it calls for the foreknowledge of God for that to make sense".   

The word "knew" there does not suggest nor denote pre-existence, but to have knowledge of. For us humans, it is necessary that you exist, if I would say I knew you. And to say I knew you before you were born, would be an obvious impossibility, if not a lie. But if it is God saying "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you", that will not be the case, for God have foreknowledge and that to Him, even things which do not exist are as though they did.   
 
But if you really think that Jeremiah's soul pre-existed his body, and with that, you take all souls to pre-exist their bodies, then that's your doctrine, not God's. Jeremiah 1:5 just don't say and teach us that.

Quote from: Alan on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 11:51:43

QuoteQuote from: Michael2012 on Today at 11:15:32

You see, if we take 4WD's understanding of creation, then what did God create? Not man, not any living thing, not the earth, and basically nothing for that matter. For 4WD believes what scientists have come up with regarding the plants, animals, man, that all are a product of evolution, that is, coming from something else and so not created, since he takes creation only as ex nihilo. Do you agree with him on that?

Absolutely, although just because that is what I believe it doesn't mean that God didn't have a plan.

So, you too would say that God did not create the earth and the heavens, and the the grass, plants, and trees, the birds, sea creatures, cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, and man?

Well, I don't have any problem with that. But you sure have a problem with scriptures.

A bunch of retarded frog squirrels mated with a fish and out came a monkey who became human when God put a soul in.

Talk about ridiculous.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 11:13:51

QuoteHe is your Lord and Savior, your God. I'm always glad to hear such profession of faith.

I'm puzzled as to why you objected when I pointed out that He is not everything.  (I mentioned that He's not my wife, and that he's not my house, for examples)   He can't be everything for you, if you're a Christian.   Pantheism is not consistent with Christian belief.

You would if you would take "everything" to mean that way. It's a figure of speech. When I said "He (Jesus Christ) is everything to me", it means to point to all things good that is attributable to Him, with special focus of Him being my Lord, God and Savior, and taking Him with the highest degree of importance, affection, and love, and is an expression of worship. Obviously it does not mean He is my wife, nor it means, He is my underwear, shoes, toy or what.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 11:13:51

QuoteAs to your invitation, I trust God in everything,

Then why would you accept man's revision of scripture?  Why not just accept it His way?

Haven't I told you yet? I don't. As I said, I stick to God's words. If there be any man whose word I accept, are the men chosen and inspired by God, such as are Moses, Paul, Peter, John, et al.   

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 12:18:31A bunch of retarded frog squirrels mated with a fish and out came a monkey who became human when God put a soul in.

Talk about ridiculous.

Yes indeed.  You couldn't be much more ridiculous than that, but alas, I am sure you will try.

(Barbarian, regarding the assertion that God is everything)
Pantheism is not consistent with Christian belief.

QuoteYou would if you would take "everything" to mean that way.

You seemed unhappy when I showed you that He isn't everything.

QuoteWhen I said "He (Jesus Christ) is everything to me", it means to point to all things good that is attributable to Him, with special focus of Him being my Lord, God and Savior, and taking Him with the highest degree of importance, affection, and love, and is an expression of worship.

Pretty much what I told you.  I'm glad to hear you say it.

QuoteAs to your invitation, I trust God in everything,

Barbarian asks:
Then why would you accept man's revision of scripture?  Why not just accept it His way?

QuoteHaven't I told you yet? I don't.

You should.   As you saw, YE creationism is a modern revision of His word.

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 11:58:54
Absolutely, although just because that is what I believe it doesn't mean that God didn't have a plan.


So, you too would say that God did not create the earth and the heavens, and the the grass, plants, and trees, the birds, sea creatures, cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, and man?

Well, I don't have any problem with that. But you sure have a problem with scriptures.

I think you missed my point, whether the physical being of man was a poof being from dust to existence or if it was through the course of a long period of time doesn't make His creation any more or any less "creation", the outcome was His plan rather than the method.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 12:18:31
A bunch of retarded frog squirrels mated with a fish and out came a monkey who became human when God put a soul in.

Talk about ridiculous.

Must be a Michigan thing 

Quote from: Alan on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 14:33:24

Must be a Michigan thing 

Not quite verbatim, but these are 4WD's views.

I am glad I have stayed free of this thread for the most part, even though I started it. IT truly infuriates me to read what some have written who call themselves a believer in the word of God. When one chooses not to believe the record of Genesis 1,2, and allow men of this world to form their understanding of creation instead of believing the testimony of God is the sad state in which the professing church has apostatized to.

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 15:47:19
I am glad I have stayed free of this thread for the most part, even though I started it. IT truly infuriates me to read what some have written who call themselves a believer in the word of God. When one chooses not to believe the record of Genesis 1,2, and allow men of this world to form their understanding of creation instead of believing the testimony of God is the sad state in which the professing church has apostatized to.

I'm glad you have stayed clear of it also 

Quote from: RB on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 15:47:19When one chooses not to believe the record of Genesis 1,2, and allow men of this world to form their understanding of creation instead of believing the testimony of God is the sad state in which the professing church has apostatized to.

So perhaps you could tell us what you think is the meaning of "And there was evening and there was morning, one day", when until day four there is neither sun nor moon.  What is evening and morning without the sun.  What is it, specifically, that you think God is telling you?

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 11:15:32

If God creates only ex nihilo, then:

3. God did not create the heavens and earth (literally).
4. God did not create the grass, plants and trees.
5. God did not create birds, beast and creeping creatures.
6. God did not create the human body.
7. God did not create anything except some extraordinarily high temperature, high density energy.

We know that God is power (or energy in scientific terms)
So if God is eternal, and God is power, and God is not created...then high density energy could not have been created because it already was.

Hence, God did not create anything. He just borrowed from something He already possessed and which pre-existed together with Him.

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 19:20:24

QuoteQuote from: Michael2012 on Today at 11:15:32

If God creates only ex nihilo, then:

3. God did not create the heavens and earth (literally).
4. God did not create the grass, plants and trees.
5. God did not create birds, beast and creeping creatures.
6. God did not create the human body.
7. God did not create anything except some extraordinarily high temperature, high density energy.

We know that God is power (or energy in scientific terms)
So if God is eternal, and God is power, and God is not created...then high density energy could not have been created because it already was.

Hence, God did not create anything. He just borrowed from something He already possessed and which pre-existed together with Him.

I get your point there AVZ. However, I don't think that would be correct to say.

While God is power, I don't see Him anything close to being energy. If at all He is energy, that would be divine energy, different from physical energy. Nonetheless, I don't know Him to be that, for we know that He is not energy, much less physical energy, but the eternal almighty Spirit, having consciousness, personality, and life.

Relative to His creation, here's scriptures:

Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

But 4WD, I think, take "created" here to mean not "ex nihilo". And if we take his take of creation that is attributable to God as only that which came to being ex nihilo, he makes God not the creator of anything, though he says God created some "stuff" which he says is some extraordinarily high temperature, high density (physical) energy. Of course he is guessing by that. He take this "stuff" as that which then by evolution (random or not, I don't know) have produced all things, including mankind.

I see this to be a dangerous doctrine. And I'm not about to let it go without a stand and defense for the truth, that God created all things, things that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, and that God created mankind.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 14:02:51

QuoteBarbarian asks:
Then why would you accept man's revision of scripture?  Why not just accept it His way?

QuoteQuote
Haven't I told you yet? I don't.

You should.   As you saw, YE creationism is a modern revision of His word.

And as I said, I don't. I am amazed of your insistence that I do or I did, despite saying to you a number of times now that I don't. Well, if it makes you happy insisting, then go ahead and insist, perhaps every time you reply on my post.

I will take YE creationism in the same way and sense that I will take OE creationism. If you say that YE creationism is a modern revision of God's word, so too is OE creationism. And this thinking, of both, is all but the product of their science. Both goes beyond what is written and revealed in scriptures concerning the creation work and creative power of God. Both ought to stick to what is revealed in scriptures, and not go beyond that. For doing so would only draw them away from the revelation of God, putting themselves in harms way.

Your insistence pushes me to say this.

How can a finite fallible mind such as man, with definiteness and with all certainty, be able to know the HOWs of the miracles of the infinite infallible God? Such pride, I would have to say. Worst still is when one tries to justify such attempt as a work that glorifies God. Some justifies even, saying that by it, they come to know God more. They so easily forget one of the reasons why the Son of God came to the earth, who is the express and perfect image of the invisible God, that the world may know Him.

What wisdom, what intelligence, what power, what love, what truth do you not see in Christ that God may be known better, that you are still in search for to see elsewhere and through something other than Christ? If you think there is more you need to know other than what Christ had manifested and revealed about God, and think that you can find it elsewhere through science, you better take a hold of yourself and consider taking your eyes back to Jesus. Be truly wise by learning from the error of Adam and Eve who desired to have more, desiring to be more wise, and be more than what God had made of them and had blessed them with.

Quote from: Alan on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 14:31:50

QuoteQuote from: Michael2012 on Today at 11:58:54

QuoteAbsolutely, although just because that is what I believe it doesn't mean that God didn't have a plan.

So, you too would say that God did not create the earth and the heavens, and the the grass, plants, and trees, the birds, sea creatures, cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, and man?

Well, I don't have any problem with that. But you sure have a problem with scriptures.

I think you missed my point, whether the physical being of man was a poof being from dust to existence or if it was through the course of a long period of time doesn't make His creation any more or any less "creation", the outcome was His plan rather than the method.

Well, perhaps you are right. I am sorry about that. But I am sure I was not in the wrong to say that you believe as 4WD does, saying "that is what I believe".

Regarding the point I missed in your post, here's my comment on that.

No one here says that God didn't have a plan. The issue about the scientific theory of evolution, the evolution of man, is not that on God's plan, but on the matter of HOW God created.

Let me cut and paste what I've posted just prior to this post for your reading here.

How can a finite fallible mind such as man, with definiteness and with all certainty, be able to know the HOWs of the miracles of the infinite infallible God? Such pride, I would have to say. Worst still is when one tries to justify such attempt as a work that glorifies God. Some justifies even, saying that by it, they come to know God more. They so easily forget one of the reasons why the Son of God came to the earth, who is the express and perfect image of the invisible God, that the world may know Him.

What wisdom, what intelligence, what power, what love, what truth do you not see in Christ that God may be known better, that you are still in search for to see elsewhere and through something other than Christ? If you think there is more you need to know other than what Christ had manifested and revealed about God, and think that you can find it elsewhere through science, you better take a hold of yourself and consider taking your eyes back to Jesus. Be truly wise by learning from the error of Adam and Eve who desired to have more, desiring to be more wise, and be more than what God had made of them and had blessed them with.

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Nov 04, 2018 - 19:20:24
We know that God is power (or energy in scientific terms)
So if God is eternal, and God is power, and God is not created...then high density energy could not have been created because it already was.

Hence, God did not create anything. He just borrowed from something He already possessed and which pre-existed together with Him.

Do you not have even a clue to the difference between the spiritual and the physical?  Apparently not.  But that does explain a lot of your beliefs.

Hey Michael, go back to my reply #2793 to RB concerning evening and morning.  I doubt that RB will try to answer my question, but perhaps you could step in for him.  What is God's message there concerning evening and morning?  What does it mean there was evening and morning when there wasn't a sun or a moon yet?