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The Background - My wife and I have been married for about 6 years. We have 2 children. We have what I would call an extremely healthy marriage and we both were saved before we were married. We are members of a wonderful, biblical church where we know everyone. I work in computers. She's a stay-at home-mom. There's your background. :-)

The Sex - We have had what I would call a normal sex life. We barely could figure it out at first (lol), got better with time, and now it just plain rocks and we try just about everything (within reason). We went from being intimate 1-3 times a day (before kids) to about 3-6 times a week since having our second, which seems normal. I have a higher drive and I also have several fetishes, which she doesn't share (she has none lol) but she enjoys entertaining mine.

The Struggle - I have battled my whole life with being attracted to 2 women kissing each other. It was what I saw on TV when I was first turned on at 12 years old, so the struggle makes sense. When I was lost, it turned into a lesbian-themed pornography addiction. The porn went away in a moment 10 years ago when I was saved, along with the desire to see 2 women kiss. But when I got married and sex became a "thing" again, the attraction to women kissing each other slowly re-emerged. Let me clarify though, the thought of lesbianism or sexual intercourse between women is not attractive at all. I certainly don't struggle with that being an OK concept nor I do I struggle with the desire to be entertained by that. Its a specific struggle, 2 straight women kissing/hugging/cuddling, but it doesn't go further. I can feel that the Spirit of God inside of me keeps me from more illicit themes. Anyway... I started to struggle with looking up pictures of women kissing online. After a little bit, I confessed to my wife that I was struggling with this. She was forgiving and full of grace for the problem, as she always is... BUT.....

The Oddity - She also explained to me that SHE struggled with the same thought for years. (no internet-just thought) We had never talked about it before. But she explained that she deals with the desire to lightly experiment with another straight woman, that the thought of kissing/maybe hugging or cuddling topless is attractive and exciting to her.

The Conclusion - I was shocked. That caused a BIG problem in my life and in hers too. The fact that the other one was thinking about made it seem less intimidating. It used to be a fantasy. Now that it turns out our spouse likes it, it became a struggle in reality. I used to think about 2 faceless women kissing each other, but now the thought is, "Is it possible that my wife would actually DO it?" And I've been dealing with picturing her kissing other women-and wanting to see it happen for real. I know that her struggle increased in a similar way, and we've both admitted to having to keep the thought out of our intimacy, but we are both struggling big time. The problem is, Its easy to justify 2 straight women kissing or being half clothed together. Kissing is never mentioned in scripture in a negative light. If anything, its even encouraged. Plus girls are not like men... Most grow up being very touchy-feely with their friends on a normal basis. So its easy to say "What's the sin in a kiss?" Well, technically, there is none. But if its for sexual pleasure, there definitely is and the reality for us is that it is definitely is a turn-on.

Help - Does anyone have some practical advice for this situation? Please don't say, "Pray, read your bible, and trust the Lord." We do that. I'm looking for practical advice from couples who have maybe had a similar struggle to help us steer our sex life away from this. Here's my fear--- When the children are grown and we have our freedom back to take trips and go on cruises etc etc, this desire will have PLENTY of opportunities to become reality. Right now, we are taking care of 2 toddlers and don't do much else lol, so its not like we are ever in a situation where this is possible, but later it will be and we just want to honor God with our marriage and our sex life. Help appreciated.

Ok Jeff, stop trying to work out a way that this may be possible for you Biblically, it wont. You say that its easy to justify 2 straight women kissing and cuddling and being half clothed together. Is it? Really? How can you even think that?  Its completely against what God says about marriage and faithfulness, and his condemnation of same sex relationships. Kissing and cuddling and being topless with another woman when you are a woman is completely wrong.

I have no idea why 2 straight women(and you keep stressing 'straight' as if that somehow makes what they may do ok), would have any desire to do that anyway, so we are back to the lesbian idea again. If your wife wants to do this then she clearly has sexual feelings for women. Straight ladies would not want to do this and don't desire other women sexually, just as straight men don't desire other men sexually.

The Bible says that we should take every thought captive. Don't let your minds go there at all. Its wrong, period. Don't feed such thoughts or they will grow, and as Joyce Meyer says, where the mind goes the man follows.
Only by not feeding these thoughts and by you not desperately and wrongly trying to justify them, will you keep them under control. Keep the marriage bed pure and keep cuddling and kissing and any thing sexual for each other only. Anything else is madness and asking for big trouble.

1. "Stop working out a way to make this biblically possible."
---I said its biblically impossible to be OK if its sexual. (Please read before you reply.)

2. "Cuddling with a woman when you are a woman is completely wrong"
---You obviously have never been to a girls slumber party, makeup party, movie night, or locker room.... Because many straight girls cuddle. (Your wife has probably done it by the way)

3. "Kissing  another woman if you are woman is completely wrong."
---Greet one another with holy kiss. Argue with Paul. (good luck)

3. "So we are back to the lesbian idea again"
---Temptation does not make someone a homosexual. Being homosexual makes someone a homosexual.

4. "You need to take every thought captive"
---Thanks for the one relevant scripture. I'm surprised you said something constructive in your obnoxious rant. We do need to take every thought captive.

5. "As Joyce Meyer says"
---Did you just quote a female pastor (forbidden by scripture) who has the doctrinal literacy of a field mouse? I think that disqualifies you from the ability to competently moderate.

You are obviously too repulsed by the fact that we are dealing with this to respond constructively. I KNOW its sin. I'm looking for ways to AVOID it because just deciding to think about something else isn't always easy. For the record, your sexual struggles are not less repulsive than ours.

Quote from: Jeff76 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 - 19:11:46
1. "Stop working out a way to make this biblically possible."
---I said its biblically impossible to be OK if its sexual. (Please read before you reply.)

2. "Cuddling with a woman when you are a woman is completely wrong"
---You obviously have never been to a girls slumber party, makeup party, movie night, or locker room.... Because many straight girls cuddle. (Your wife has probably done it by the way)

3. "Kissing  another woman if you are woman is completely wrong."
---Greet one another with holy kiss. Argue with Paul. (good luck)

3. "So we are back to the lesbian idea again"
---Temptation does not make someone a homosexual. Being homosexual makes someone a homosexual.

4. "You need to take every thought captive"
---Thanks for the one relevant scripture. I'm surprised you said something constructive in your obnoxious rant. We do need to take every thought captive.

5. "As Joyce Meyer says"
---Did you just quote a female pastor (forbidden by scripture) who has the doctrinal literacy of a field mouse? I think that disqualifies you from the ability to competently moderate.

You are obviously too repulsed by the fact that we are dealing with this to respond constructively. I KNOW its sin. I'm looking for ways to AVOID it because just deciding to think about something else isn't always easy. For the record, your sexual struggles are not less repulsive than ours.

Firstly I am female not male. Secondly I have never cuddled another woman, I may give a family member or very close friend a hug, that is not a cuddle or kiss on the lips, and certainly not partially nude. Thirdly what ever you think of Joyce Meyer, who isnt a pastor BTW, what she says on this is so true. Forthly, you are trying to justify it that is why you have been searching the Bible for loopholes. Fithly, I am far from repulsed, I am sad that you are trying to find a way Biblically to make it ok for you and your wife to do this. Six, if your wife is sexually attracted to females then she is at the least bi sexual, and your desires to see 2 lesbians act out sexually is apparently not as bad if you call them 'straight'. Seven, what I advised is totally Biblical. Take every thought captive, don't let yourselves dwell or think of things or try in anyway to seek out whether its ok Biblically.
Recognise that these thoughts are wrong, that running from them is right, and that if you don't feed the fire its more likely to go out.

I am astounded that you think that 2 straight women would have any temptation or desire to do this. They would need to have an attraction sexually to women to even be tempted to do this. You are right in that temptation isn't sin, but straight people aren't sexually tempted to do things of a sexual nature with someone of the same sex.

IF you want Biblical advise then you have it. Flee from temptation. Even thoughts like this are wrong according to Jesus, so starving them and not allowing your minds to dwell on them is what is advised by God.  Not easy of course, but its the only way. 

I wonder, if your wife wanted to cuddle and kiss semi naked with a man, how would you feel? How about if she wanted you do to this with another man? Would you then be searching the Bible in the same way? Is it more acceptable in your eyes if its a female on female because that is your fantasy? Its no different as far as the Bible goes, its still unfaithfulness and still wrong.

No I haven't been to a slumber party, or make up party and cuddled with other women. Didn't do them in my day. Don't seem to do them much now in the UK.

IF you are determined to stay away from ever doing this then you need to have no fear of the future. You usually have to search out people who want to do things like this, they don't come knocking on your door.

Another point, you can in no way compare a holy chaste kiss between bothers or sisters in Christ to what you are thinking about in this  case.

You KNOW this is very wrong. You ARE trying it justify it Biblically and otherwise, but you can't. You and she are the only ones who are free to kiss and cuddle and be naked with each other with.

I suspect that some of you own struggles with this stem from your past porn use. These images can stay in the mind for a very long time.

Quote from: Jeff76 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 - 19:11:46
1. "Stop working out a way to make this biblically possible."
---I said its biblically impossible to be OK if its sexual. (Please read before you reply.)

2. "Cuddling with a woman when you are a woman is completely wrong"
---You obviously have never been to a girls slumber party, makeup party, movie night, or locker room.... Because many straight girls cuddle. (Your wife has probably done it by the way)

3. "Kissing  another woman if you are woman is completely wrong."
---Greet one another with holy kiss. Argue with Paul. (good luck)

3. "So we are back to the lesbian idea again"
---Temptation does not make someone a homosexual. Being homosexual makes someone a homosexual.

4. "You need to take every thought captive"
---Thanks for the one relevant scripture. I'm surprised you said something constructive in your obnoxious rant. We do need to take every thought captive.

5. "As Joyce Meyer says"
---Did you just quote a female pastor (forbidden by scripture) who has the doctrinal literacy of a field mouse? I think that disqualifies you from the ability to competently moderate.

You are obviously too repulsed by the fact that we are dealing with this to respond constructively. I KNOW its sin. I'm looking for ways to AVOID it because just deciding to think about something else isn't always easy. For the record, your sexual struggles are not less repulsive than ours.

Jeff if you had the temptation to kiss another dude, you would be ?

Quote from: Jeff76 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 - 19:11:46

---You obviously have never been to a girls slumber party, makeup party, movie night, or locker room.... Because many straight girls cuddle. (Your wife has probably done it by the way)

Sure, in secular society this is completely normal, but so is the act that you are attracted to. Christian women would NOT get together for sleep-overs and cuddle.

Quote

---Greet one another with holy kiss. Argue with Paul. (good luck)

Way to rip scripture from context, I hope it suits you well.

Quote

I KNOW its sin. I'm looking for ways to AVOID it because just deciding to think about something else isn't always easy.

This isn't something that someone can help you with, you know it's wrong, we know it's wrong, bottom line; STOP DOING IT! If that is too difficult for you then perhaps you need to start over again, recommit yourself to Christ. Temptations like this shouldn't be difficult for a Christian.

Quote from: Jeff76 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 - 19:11:46You are obviously too repulsed by the fact that we are dealing with this to respond constructively. I KNOW its sin. I'm looking for ways to AVOID it because just deciding to think about something else isn't always easy. For the record, your sexual struggles are not less repulsive than ours.

Jeff, Chosenone gave you good advice to avoid even such thoughts. The very thoughts of such things are sinful~so why not seek ways to not allow these thoughts to come into your heart? If we allow ourselves to entertain such thoughts, then the temptation to give in to them becomes much easier. Your OUR sinful nature can look for ways to justify our sinful desires~ convincing ourselves that it is not sinful~it is not hard......because our old man loves such thoughts and it is easy to deceive our hearts in order to justify our desires even if we know that it is against the word of God. My practical advice to you is this:

Quote from: PaulPhilippians 4:6-8~"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

Quote from: Jeff76 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 - 10:13:50
Help - Does anyone have some practical advice for this situation? Please don't say, "Pray, read your bible, and trust the Lord."

Somewhat strange.
You want help, but we are not allowed to advise the thing that helps.

Quote from: Jeff76 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 - 19:11:46
1. "Stop working out a way to make this biblically possible."
---I said its biblically impossible to be OK if its sexual. (Please read before you reply.)

2. "Cuddling with a woman when you are a woman is completely wrong"
---You obviously have never been to a girls slumber party, makeup party, movie night, or locker room.... Because many straight girls cuddle. (Your wife has probably done it by the way)

3. "Kissing  another woman if you are woman is completely wrong."
---Greet one another with holy kiss. Argue with Paul. (good luck)

3. "So we are back to the lesbian idea again"
---Temptation does not make someone a homosexual. Being homosexual makes someone a homosexual.

4. "You need to take every thought captive"
---Thanks for the one relevant scripture. I'm surprised you said something constructive in your obnoxious rant. We do need to take every thought captive.

5. "As Joyce Meyer says"
---Did you just quote a female pastor (forbidden by scripture) who has the doctrinal literacy of a field mouse? I think that disqualifies you from the ability to competently moderate.

You are obviously too repulsed by the fact that we are dealing with this to respond constructively. I KNOW its sin. I'm looking for ways to AVOID it because just deciding to think about something else isn't always easy. For the record, your sexual struggles are not less repulsive than ours.

Jeff,

I am not married and I am going to tell you to leave God and the bible out of things.

THERE IS NOTHING that would entice me to kiss another human being, male or female, UNLESS there was a sexual attraction.

Kissing can and will lead to other things. IF you are sexually attracted to your own wife you certainly know this.

And certainly being in anyway , even slightly, undressed MEANS sex is the goal.

Except for the staged performances that porn stars use to entice their viewers to watch and want more.

It is not normal.... although I have heard many men do fantasize about 2 women.

Your fantasies will be with you forever, so I have been told.

You must ignore... that is the simple truth.

Quote from: Jeff76 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 - 19:11:46


2.
---You obviously have never been to a girls slumber party, makeup party, movie night, or locker room.... Because many straight girls cuddle. (Your wife has probably done it by the way)

OK, I've been in my share of girl's locker rooms, dressing rooms, swimming pool showers, tennis club changing rooms, ballet changing rooms, etc, but I have yet to see females cuddling and making out in them. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never witnessed it. I think you do a disservice to the women in the forum, and women in general insinuating that most of us have "probably done it" and possibly planting seeds of doubt in the minds of the husbands and fathers here.

Quote from: Jeff76 on Sat Nov 24, 2018 - 19:11:46



2. "Cuddling with a woman when you are a woman is completely wrong"
---You obviously have never been to a girls slumber party, makeup party, movie night, or locker room.... Because many straight girls cuddle. (Your wife has probably done it by the way)

3. "Kissing  another woman if you are woman is completely wrong."
---Greet one another with holy kiss. Argue with Paul. (good luck)

(2)  Ditto what mommydi said. If your wife experienced such things, that perhaps is the root cause of he fantasies.... you seem to know a lot about what goes on in a girls slumber party, makeup party, movie night...

Or, perhaps it is what you experienced in your boys locker room?

(3)  There is no way what you are describing is a Godly kiss. So leave Paul out of it.

You want to know how to avoid these thoughts. I cannot help you but know that you are protesting too much in seeming to be looking for a pass for yourself and/or wife.

I do know that the more you try to argue with us, the more it will be always on your mind.

Well, read almost all of your post ~ none of the answering posts ~ you know you're fooling around with dirty thought ~ why not throw in an animal or 5-6 other people ~ you hint/say you are Christian ~ there is more to being Christian than words ~ keep your family clean ~ something the Lord would be proud of ```

What man and wife are together and happy with ~ the Lord is happy with ~ but ~ don't throw in other people ~ or animals or on a public bus or street corner ```

Good luck ~ long life ```


Ohan