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In a revelation received in 1838, Jesus Christ decreed to the Prophet Joseph Smith the following,

""For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Notice Christ did not say "...even the Mormon church," or "...the LDS church, or "The Church of the Latter day Saints."

A few months back, President Russell M. Nelson, God's prophet on earth today, stated that the Lord had impressed upon his mind the importance of the name he had given to the church (see above). Thus, a new edict was given by he who is authorized to act as God's mouthpiece. As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we have been charged with bringing our thoughts and words in harmony with this new directive. Thus, commonly used nicknames for the church are considered inappropriate. As such terms like the Mormon church, LDS Church or any other nickname that omits the name of our Savior is to be discontinued.

Likewise, nicknames in reference to members of the church are also inappropriate. We aren't "Mormons," or "LDS." When speaking of the church, it is to be referred to as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or The Church of Jesus Christ. The Restored Church of Jesus Christ is also acceptable. This makes a lot of sense, actually. It isn't Mormon's Church, so why would it be called by his name? And when referencing adherents to the Church of Jesus Christ, the word "Saints," is fine, as is "Latter-day Saint." Again, since we are disciples of Jesus Christ, and not Mormon, we should be designated as such.

Below are few quotes from President Nelson explaining better than I could the need for this new direction:

"For much of the world, the Lord's Church is presently disguised as the 'Mormon Church.' But we as members of the Lord's Church know who stands at its head: Jesus Christ Himself. I realize with profound regret that we have unwittingly acquiesced in the Lord's restored Church being called by other names, each of which expunges the sacred name of Jesus Christ!"

"The most glaring omission is the absence of the Savior's name. ... When we discard the Savior's name, we are subtly disregarding all that Jesus Christ did for us — even His Atonement."

"It is not a name change. It is not rebranding. It is not cosmetic. It is not a whim. And it is not inconsequential. Instead, it is a correction. It is the command of the Lord."

Within the church, we are already moving away from such terminology, including renaming the "Mormon Tabernacle Choir" to "The Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square." As a church, I think we're pretty serious about this.

I acknowledge that it is difficult to do away with longstanding traditions. Heck, I still sometimes catch myself referring to myself as "Mormon," but it's something that I hope my fellow Christians throughout this forum will consider and respect.

Regardless of your name change, those who adhere to this church's doctrine are not Christians.

The teachings on the diety of Christ exclude you from Orthodox Christianity and the name Christian.

Quote
Regardless of your name change, those who adhere to this church's doctrine are not Christians.

The teachings on the diety of Christ exclude you from Orthodox Christianity and the name Christian.

Remember, it's a course correction, NOT a name change.

As for the rest of your nonsense, yeah, heard it all before.  Thankfully I don't need your permission to claim to be a Christian. I AM a Christian. I know it. God knows it and deep down, you know it too. Or at least you would if you would actually take the time to learn what the church teaches before making judgment calls about our status before God. Like, for example, the fact that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does, in fact, believe in the deity of Christ. We believe everything the Bible says about Christ. For you to claim otherwise is to bear false witness against your neighbor.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Nov 26, 2018 - 18:16:11
Remember, it's a course correction, NOT a name change.

As for the rest of your nonsense, yeah, heard it all before.  Thankfully I don't need your permission to claim to be a Christian. I AM a Christian. I know it. God knows it and deep down, you know it too. Or at least you would if you would actually take the time to learn what the church teaches before making judgment calls about our status before God. Like, for example, the fact that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does, in fact, believe in the deity of Christ. We believe everything the Bible says about Christ. For you to claim otherwise is to bear false witness against your neighbor.

Not bearing false witness.   How your group views Jesus Christ does not fall in line with Orthodox Christian views.

I know what your group teaches and it is a false gospel.

QuoteNot bearing false witness.   How your group views Jesus Christ does not fall in line with Orthodox Christian views.

I know what your group teaches and it is a false gospel.

Oh you are indeed bearing false witness. We are objectively a Christian church. Yet you claim we are not. Your claim is false, and you have been informed of its falsehood, yet you continue to insist otherwise. That doesn't just make you wrong, it makes you dishonest.

  Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, divine,  born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, performed miracles, went about doing good and was  scourged, crucified and eventually resurrected to save us from our sins so that all who believe in him may have everlasting life according to the grace and mercy of God. This is how my 'group' views Jesus. What part of that do you have a problem with?

You, like so many others on these forums have no clue what we believe. If you did, you'd know that we do in fact believe in the divinity of Christ and are, in fact, Christians.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Nov 26, 2018 - 22:09:23
Oh you are indeed bearing false witness. We are objectively a Christian church. Yet you claim we are not. Your claim is false, and you have been informed of its falsehood, yet you continue to insist otherwise. That doesn't just make you wrong, it makes you dishonest.

  Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, divine,  born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, performed miracles, went about doing good and was  scourged, crucified and eventually resurrected to save us from our sins so that all who believe in him may have everlasting life according to the grace and mercy of God. This is how my 'group' views Jesus. What part of that do you have a problem with?

You, like so many others on these forums have no clue what we believe. If you did, you'd know that we do in fact believe in the divinity of Christ and are, in fact, Christians.

You are only Christian by your own definition.
According to the definition of the rest of the world, you are not.

Its like a cat claiming to be a dog because it has four legs, two ears, two eyes and is kept as a pet.
It is not despite the similarities that your church is not a Christian church...it is because of the things your church teaches that are not biblical.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Nov 26, 2018 - 22:09:23
Oh you are indeed bearing false witness. We are objectively a Christian church. Yet you claim we are not. Your claim is false, and you have been informed of its falsehood, yet you continue to insist otherwise. That doesn't just make you wrong, it makes you dishonest.

  Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, divine,  born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, performed miracles, went about doing good and was  scourged, crucified and eventually resurrected to save us from our sins so that all who believe in him may have everlasting life according to the grace and mercy of God. This is how my 'group' views Jesus. What part of that do you have a problem with?

You, like so many others on these forums have no clue what we believe. If you did, you'd know that we do in fact believe in the divinity of Christ and are, in fact, Christians.

You don't believe in the trinity.  So stop trying to pull anyone's leg.

The dishonest one is you.

QuoteYou are only Christian by your own definition.
According to the definition of the rest of the world, you are not.

On the contrary. The overwhelming majority of the world considers us Christian. It is only within a small subset of (mostly) Evangelical Christians that do not. To illustrate, here is a far from comprehensive list of organizations and directories that list the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a Christian faith:


    adherents.com: "Largest Branches of Christianity in the U.S."
    BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation)
    beliefnet: "Faiths and Practices" index
    Encyclopedia Britannia Online
    LaborLawTalk dictionary
    MSN Encarta encyclopedia: "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
    National Council of Churches (NCC): National Council of Churches' 2005 "Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches."
    PBS (Public Broadcasting Service): "The Church: A Brief History"
    RSN (Religion New Service): Religion Backgrounders
    World Council of Churches (WCC): Churches
    United States Department of State: International Religious Freedom Report 2004 (Tonga)
    Yahoo Directory: "Christian Denominations and Sects"

And though it's anecdotal, I don't know anyone personally who doesn't consider me a Christian.

What you have done is invented your own personal definition of "Christian" designed to specifically exclude those with whom you vehemently disagree. If I am wrong, please post the definition of Christian and let's see how the Church of Jesus Christ compares.

QuoteIts like a cat claiming to be a dog because it has four legs, two ears, two eyes and is kept as a pet.
It is not despite the similarities that your church is not a Christian church...it is because of the things your church teaches that are not biblical.

I'd buy your analogy if I were, say, of the Muslim faith, claiming to be Christian. Both are Abrahamic religions from the middle east, both are monotheistic, both feature prophets and angels, etc. But at their core, they are fundamentally different. What you are doing here is looking at two cats and claiming one of them ISN'T a cat because it has gray fur instead of yellow. Because, you know, all cats have yellow fur.

Your claim rests on the assertion that we cannot be classified as Christiana because we teach things that aren't biblical. This criteria only works if there is a unified understanding of what the Bible teaches held amongst all Christians, and there isn't. Given the wide gulf between Christians over almost any topic (just on gracecentered alone) proves that no such consensus exists and that the vast majority here to a greater or lesser extent, are believing things that are not biblical. In order to be considered Christian, I must ask, is it requisite to agree with you, AVZ in every particular in order to be accepted as a true follower of Jesus Christ?

QuoteYou don't believe in the trinity.  So stop trying to pull anyone's leg.

Oh, the irony. You say we are not Christians because we reject what the Bible teaches. And to prove your point, you cite our disbelief in a doctrine that itself isn't in the Bible.

If you believe in the Trinity as expounded upon by ecumenical councils, then it is you who believes unbiblical doctrine, not me.

Here's what Latter-day Saints believe about the Trinity:

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all divine personages.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the savior of mankind from their sins.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One God

Is any of that not biblical?

QuoteThe dishonest one is you.

Afraid not. It is you who continues to engage in dishonest dialogue, making yourself a judge over my walk with Christ.

I ask of you the same thing I ask of AVZ, what is your definition of Christianity? Let us see how the Church of Jesus Christ compares.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Nov 27, 2018 - 18:18:11
Oh, the irony. You say we are not Christians because we reject what the Bible teaches. And to prove your point, you cite our disbelief in a doctrine that itself isn't in the Bible.

If you believe in the Trinity as expounded upon by ecumenical councils, then it is you who believes unbiblical doctrine, not me.

Here's what Latter-day Saints believe about the Trinity:

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all divine personages.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and the savior of mankind from their sins.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One God

Is any of that not biblical?

Afraid not. It is you who continues to engage in dishonest dialogue, making yourself a judge over my walk with Christ.

I ask of you the same thing I ask of AVZ, what is your definition of Christianity? Let us see how the Church of Jesus Christ compares.

Go populate your own planet when you reach Godhood.

I take it you concede the debate and acknowledge you were wrong since your argument has devolved to personal attacks?

I don't see what your problem is. All I did was ask you to prove your point. You couldn't. That's not my fault.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Nov 27, 2018 - 18:18:11
I ask of you the same thing I ask of AVZ, what is your definition of Christianity? Let us see how the Church of Jesus Christ compares.

It doesn't matter what my definition or your definition of Christianity is.
It matters what the definition is set by Christianity as a whole. Fact is: you are not "in it".
The general consensus and agreement is that you are not a Christian church because you do not meet the requirements.

Okay, then tell me, what ARE the requirements set by Christianity? If you are intent on showing that the Church of Jesus Christ does not fit the definition of Christian, it helps if we have an agreed upon definition.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Nov 26, 2018 - 22:09:23
Oh you are indeed bearing false witness. We are objectively a Christian church. Yet you claim we are not. Your claim is false, and you have been informed of its falsehood, yet you continue to insist otherwise. That doesn't just make you wrong, it makes you dishonest.

  Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, divine,  born of a virgin, who lived a sinless life, performed miracles, went about doing good and was  scourged, crucified and eventually resurrected to save us from our sins so that all who believe in him may have everlasting life according to the grace and mercy of God. This is how my 'group' views Jesus. What part of that do you have a problem with?

You, like so many others on these forums have no clue what we believe. If you did, you'd know that we do in fact believe in the divinity of Christ and are, in fact, Christians.

Did you ever see the big, beautiful headquarters of the Worldwide Church of God in Pasadena?   I saw it. Wonderful place.  I can still smell the orange blossoms.   

The Worldwide Church of God was started by Herbert W. Armstrong, a man who rejected the Trinity, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and salvation by grace. (Just a few of his odd claims.)  Armstrong once said that his church is the true Israel - just like the LDS/Mormons - and proof of that was that they still celebrated feasts and holidays that the modern-day Jews have left in the past. The Worldwide Church of God were real law keepers.  He claimed that his church was God's only true church.   (Seems like I've heard that from a lot of groups.)   In 2009 a new sheriff took over and Armstrong's false teachings were abandoned and the name, Worldwide Church of God, was also abandoned.  The new Church group is called Grace Communion International.  Any leftover Armstrong followers left and started their own new splinter groups.

A guy that used to work for me was a member of the Worldwide Church of God.  He always had to leave work on Fridays in time to get home by dark.   That's when the Sabbath starts.   Even the Seventh Day Adventists don't honor the Sabbath like these people used to.

My point is, for your church group to change directions it needs to destroy all of the false doctrine that has gone on before.   More than a name change is required.   Just being like Rally's or Checker's with the same menu and two names is nothing to write home about.   

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/8878-worldwide-church-of-god

Texas Conservantive said

QuoteRegardless of your name change, those who adhere to this church's doctrine are not Christians.

You judge this churches doctrine based on what? Have you read the Book of Mormon? If you have not even read their doctrine, how can you rightly judge their doctrine? Or is the Truth you are judging their doctrine based solely on hearsay that you have heard from others?

Texas Conservantive said

QuoteThe teachings on the diety of Christ exclude you from Orthodox Christianity and the name Christian.

Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died and was risen again, can be called Christian. Are you saying the Church of Jesus Christ and the latter day Saints don't believe Jesus is the Son of God?

i perceive that you have several logs in your eyes that you should remove before trying to cast out specks in others eyes.

Quote from: DiscipleDave on Sun Dec 23, 2018 - 17:40:07
Texas Conservantive said
You judge this churches doctrine based on what? Have you read the Book of Mormon? If you have not even read their doctrine, how can you rightly judge their doctrine? Or is the Truth you are judging their doctrine based solely on hearsay that you have heard from others?

Texas Conservantive said
Anyone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died and was risen again, can be called Christian. Are you saying the Church of Jesus Christ and the latter day Saints don't believe Jesus is the Son of God?

i perceive that you have several logs in your eyes that you should remove before trying to cast out specks in others eyes.

I have read their doctrine.  Those that believe that Jesus Christ is a created being and brother of Satan are not Christian.

I perceive you misuse scripture with the log/speck comment.  The deity of Jesus Christ is an essential doctrine.  If you believe Jesus is a created being, you also are not a Christian.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon Dec 24, 2018 - 11:58:00
I have read their doctrine.  Those that believe that Jesus Christ is a created being and brother of Satan are not Christian.

I perceive you misuse scripture with the log/speck comment.  The deity of Jesus Christ is an essential doctrine.  If you believe Jesus is a created being, you also are not a Christian.

TC... I am with you 100% on this one.... except, in my search for what they truly believe so I could link to better authority, I ran into this.....

They do, in a way, consider Jesus and Satan as brothers. Spiritual brothers.... (Which flies in the face of my always having believed that Satan was and Angel... fallen and all... and Jesus never was)

Anyway... some interesting links....

The authoritative Encyclopedia of Mormonism, published in 1992, does not refer to Jesus and Satan as brothers. It speaks of Jesus as the son of God and of Satan as a fallen angel, which is a Biblical account.

A spokeswoman for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Huckabee's question is usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith rather than clarify doctrine.

"We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all," said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah.

"That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind," she said. "Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for."

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/695235240/Huckabee-asks-if-Mormons-believe-Jesus-Satan-are-brothers.html

LDS believe that Jesus Christ's role is central to our Heavenly Father's plan. Christ is unique in several respects from all other spirit children of God:

Jesus was and is perfect
Jesus is God (See John 1:1-2, Hebrews 1:6, 1 Nephi 11:16–26, D&C 76:13).
Jesus is the Creator (See John 1:3, Hebrews 1:1–6, Mosiah 3:3, Helaman 14:12, Moses 2:1).
Jesus obeyed the Father in all things (See 3 Nephi 11:11).
Jesus was chosen and foreordained to be the Redeemer (See Isaiah 43:11, Mosiah 13:28–34, 3 Nephi 9:15, Moses 4:2).
Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity (See John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 8:5, 2 Nephi 2:28, D&C 76:69).
Jesus was "the Only Begotten"—only He, of all God's children, had a physical inheritance in His body from God the Father. All other mortals have two mortal parents, and Satan and his followers never receive physical bodies at all. (See John 1:14, John 3:16, John 14:3, Jacob 4:11, Alma 12:33–34).

It is technically true to say that Jesus and Satan are "brothers," in the sense that both have the same spiritual parent, God the Father

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Jesus_Christ/Brother_of_Satan

But I like this from Got Questions:

Question: "Are Jesus and Satan brothers?"

The teaching that Jesus and Satan are "spirit brothers" is born out of the Mormons' misunderstanding and distortion of Scripture as well as some of the extra-biblical teachings they consider to be authoritative

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Satan-brothers.html

Answer: No, Jesus and Satan are not brothers. Jesus is God, and Satan is one of His creations.

Quote
I have read their doctrine.  Those that believe that Jesus Christ is a created being and brother of Satan are not Christian.

Please quote the  biblical scripture that states a belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers precludes one from the Christian faith and from salvation.

To go further, why don't you post what the Bible says one must do to be saved and let's see how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints measures up. Hint, you'll probably be surprised.

Quote
I perceive you misuse scripture with the log/speck comment.  The deity of Jesus Christ is an essential doctrine.  If you believe Jesus is a created being, you also are not a Christian.

Latter-day Saints believe in the deity of Christ. What's the problem? Latter-day Saints also deny the idea of creatio ex nihilio so to suggest that we believe Christ is a "created" being is preposterous.

So, as always, you are wrong. We are indeed Christians. You'd be a lot better off if you dropped the prejudice that clouds your judgement and acknowledge this as an unmitigated fact.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Dec 24, 2018 - 21:01:13

Please quote the  biblical scripture that states a belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers precludes one from the Christian faith and from salvation.

To go further, why don't you post what the Bible says one must do to be saved and let's see how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints measures up. Hint, you'll probably be surprised.
Latter-day Saints believe in the deity of Christ. What's the problem? Latter-day Saints also deny the idea of creatio ex nihilio so to suggest that we believe Christ is a "created" being is preposterous.

So, as always, you are wrong. We are indeed Christians. You'd be a lot better off if you dropped the prejudice that clouds your judgement and acknowledge this as an unmitigated fact.

Jesus and God are two distinct beings:

Like most Christians, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Creator of the World. However, Mormons hold the unique belief that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct beings. Mormons believe that God and Jesus Christ are wholly united in their perfect love for us, but that each is a distinct personage with His own perfect, glorified body (see D&C 130:22).

https://www.lds.org.uk/what-mormons-believe-about-jesus-christ

I will not call you a Christian.  You are not one.  You do not share Orthodox views on the deity of Christ.

QuoteI will not call you a Christian.  You are not one.  You do not share Orthodox views on the deity of Christ.

Coming from the guy who believes in the non biblical doctrine of the Trinity, this is rich.

I ask again, knowing you will refuse to answer. Please define Christian, and what are the biblical requirements for salvation? Easy questions, yet you refuse to answer. I wonder why.

And for the record, that snippet you posted, on Jesus and God being separate beings, that IS the orthodox position, what the Bible teaches. If you deny this, then perhaps it is YOU who is not a TRUE Christian.

Those so called words that Joseph Smith got weren't from God. He either made them up(along with the very 'convenient' one about being allowed to have many women and be unfaithful to your wife, which he already had), or they were from an evil spirit.

As for satan being Jesus Brother, complete heresy. Jesus is God, satan was created.

QuoteThose so called words that Joseph Smith got weren't from God. He either made them up(along with the very 'convenient' one about being allowed to have many women and be unfaithful to your wife, which he already had), or they were from an evil spirit.

Wrong.

QuoteAs for satan being Jesus Brother, complete heresy. Jesus is God, satan was created.

Latter day Saints believe Jesus is God.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Mon Dec 24, 2018 - 22:04:04
Coming from the guy who believes in the non biblical doctrine of the Trinity, this is rich.

I ask again, knowing you will refuse to answer. Please define Christian, and what are the biblical requirements for salvation? Easy questions, yet you refuse to answer. I wonder why.

And for the record, that snippet you posted, on Jesus and God being separate beings, that IS the orthodox position, what the Bible teaches. If you deny this, then perhaps it is YOU who is not a TRUE Christian.

"Coming from the guy who believes in the non biblical doctrine of the Trinity, this is rich."

It is you who are in error in the not embracing the Trinity that makes up the Godhead.

The Holy," inerrant"  word of God told to us through the bible is repleat with telling us of the Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe in the Trinity, then you do not believe in the bible. Period. Because we are told of

God the Father

God the son, who is necessary for our salvation. ... HE is the OLY way.

And the Holy Spirit. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30

That makes 3 and if you are incapable of understanding that 3 makes a Trinity I guess it is no wonder that you would believe the musings of a 14 year old boy who claimed to have encountered God in a grove of trees, where he was allegedly praying for guidance and knowledge. How do we know he was not smoking or eating something mind altering . They say he was struggling to understand.

Well for me... I will accept what God told us in his Holy book that was written much closer to the time Jesus walked this earth then the early 1800s

There is no doubt that Smith was a charismatic person..... One able to persuade and influence people to his way of thinking... but I submit this was not a gift from God but of something more occultish.

Take the Golden Tablets for instance...

The writing on the plates was in an ancient language. Through inspiration and the power of the Holy Ghost, Heavenly Father helped Joseph Smith translate what the writing said.

Joseph used a special rock called a seer stone to translate the plates. He also used a tool called the Urim and Thummim, two clear rocks bound together with metal that looked like a pair of glasses. This tool had been buried in the Hill Cumorah with the plates.

The plates were written in a language called Reformed Egyptian.

https://www.lds.org/friend/2017/02/golden-plates-to-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

And if this was real, and if Smith was to set up a new religion , then why keep any of the plates sealed?

And why did they disappear?

Well,.... you are told   "
"The official LDS answer is as Mr. Kimmons suggests, that the Angel Moroni took them back with him to heaven after the translation work was complete."

https://www.quora.com/Where-are-Joseph-Smiths-golden-tablets

That is a lie...............

For now you actually may have some proof.......

ARCHAEOLOGISTS DISCOVER GOLDEN PLATES BELIEVED TO BE LINKED TO JOSEPH SMITH JR.
https://worldnewsdailyreport.com/archaeologists-discover-golden-plates-believed-to-be-linked-to-joseph-smith-jr/

For me, I do not think they were written by God, if in fact they are the Smith ones.

This is just too occultish for my beliefs.

Nope... I will take the writings of Ancient Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic over Egyptian any day of the week....

And the Trinity is real. Period.

QuoteIt is you who are in error in the not embracing the Trinity that makes up the Godhead.

The Holy," inerrant"  word of God told to us through the bible is repleat with telling us of the Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe in the Trinity, then you do not believe in the bible. Period. Because we are told of

God the Father

God the son, who is necessary for our salvation. ... HE is the OLY way.

And the Holy Spirit. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. - Ephesians 4:30

Latter-day Saints believe every word of what you just posted...but that's not the Trinity as understood by churches professing to believe in it. What we DON'T believe in is the Trinity as defined by the extra biblical councils of the first three or four centuries, which define the Trinity as three personages who are one being, co-eternal, co-equal and co-substantial. That definition is unbiblical and arose as a result of ecumenical councils co-mingled with Greek Philosophy.

Latter day Saints believe in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost, each divine, and comprising One God. That oneness, however, is not understood through "shared substance," but through purpose and unity. Our understanding is perfectly in line with the Bible. The Trinity as understood by the majority of creedal Christians? Not so much.

QuoteNope... I will take the writings of Ancient Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic over Egyptian any day of the week....

Herein lies your problem. You are trusting in the arm of the flesh, the writings, language and philosophies of Man. In this, you do err. I place my trust, not in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or Egyptian, but in direct revelation from God to me. That is how I know.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Dec 25, 2018 - 09:58:25
Latter-day Saints believe every word of what you just posted...but that's not the Trinity as understood by churches professing to believe in it. What we DON'T believe in is the Trinity as defined by the extra biblical councils of the first three or four centuries, which define the Trinity as three personages who are one being, co-eternal, co-equal and co-substantial. That definition is unbiblical and arose as a result of ecumenical councils co-mingled with Greek Philosophy.

Latter day Saints believe in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost, each divine, and comprising One God. That oneness, however, is not understood through "shared substance," but through purpose and unity. Our understanding is perfectly in line with the Bible. The Trinity as understood by the majority of creedal Christians? Not so much.


Herein lies your problem. You are trusting in the arm of the flesh, the writings, language and philosophies of Man. In this, you do err. I place my trust, not in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or Egyptian, but in direct revelation from God to me. That is how I know.

"Latter day Saints believe in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost, each divine, and comprising One God. That oneness, however, is not understood through "shared substance," but through purpose and unity."

This is the Trinity... at least to me and my church. Whether you chose to call it that ior not it is what it is.

" I place my trust, not in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or Egyptian, but in direct revelation from God to me."

So you are a prophet?

Can you share any new revelations with us?

Ke la mon a qi spel la bota qi per quar?

QuoteThis is the Trinity... at least to me and my church. Whether you chose to call it that ior not it is what it is.

Usually, when people talk of the Trinity, they speak of the Trinity as defined by the Nicene Creed, and we reject that. If you and I agree with the above definition, then there is no disagreement, only in our use of terms. And since "Trinity" insn't actually a biblical term, our disagreement over what we call it is inconsequential.

" I place my trust, not in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or Egyptian, but in direct revelation from God to me."

QuoteSo you are a prophet?

In a general sense, yes. Revelation states that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. I suppose anyone who has received confirmation from the Spirit that Jesus is the Christ has that prophetic spirit. Does that mean I am the Lord's "Prophet and can give revelations for the world? No, that is not within my stewardship.

QuoteCan you share any new revelations with us?

I have received revelations before, yes, but they are for my personal benefit and are not designed to give instruction to the world at large. I teach Sunday School at church, and in order to do so effectively, I might seek out answers from the almighty through prayer. The inspiration and direction I have in guiding my class is revelation.

It is through revelation that I know of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So when I say I KNOW it is true, I don't do so lightly. I literally know. How I Know is between myself and God and I don't tend to share such sacred experiences unless prompted by the Spirit.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Tue Dec 25, 2018 - 11:29:48
Usually, when people talk of the Trinity, they speak of the Trinity as defined by the Nicene Creed, and we reject that. If you and I agree with the above definition, then there is no disagreement, only in our use of terms. And since "Trinity" insn't actually a biblical term, our disagreement over what we call it is inconsequential.

" I place my trust, not in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or Egyptian, but in direct revelation from God to me."

In a general sense, yes. Revelation states that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. I suppose anyone who has received confirmation from the Spirit that Jesus is the Christ has that prophetic spirit. Does that mean I am the Lord's "Prophet and can give revelations for the world? No, that is not within my stewardship.

I have received revelations before, yes, but they are for my personal benefit and are not designed to give instruction to the world at large. I teach Sunday School at church, and in order to do so effectively, I might seek out answers from the almighty through prayer. The inspiration and direction I have in guiding my class is revelation.

It is through revelation that I know of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So when I say I KNOW it is true, I don't do so lightly. I literally know. How I Know is between myself and God and I don't tend to share such sacred experiences unless prompted by the Spirit.

I know the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.  It is a false church.  With a false teaching about the trinity and Jesus Christ and spirit children and a whole bunch of other false things.  You are not a Christian.  We do not walk down the same path.

the_last_gunslinger,

Why do some Christians say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) are not Christian? I think it is ridiculous.

QuoteI know the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.  It is a false church.  With a false teaching about the trinity and Jesus Christ and spirit children and a whole bunch of other false things.  You are not a Christian.  We do not walk down the same path.

Please state the Biblical definition of a Christian.

QuoteWhy do some Christians say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) are not Christian? I think it is ridiculous.

Usually, it's because those claiming Latter-day Saints aren't Christian do so by applying a personal and private definition of Christianity specifically designed to exclude groups that they disagree with. Texas Conservative here, for example is claiming I am not a Christian, even though I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior and the divine Son of God. But to him, I am not a Christian because I do not agree with him on several points of doctrine, a classic case of the 'no true scotsman fallacy.'

And sometimes people outright misrepresent what we believe to show we fall outside the Christian faith. Texas Conservative is guilty of this as well. He has claimed on multiple occasions that "Mormons" do not accept the deity of Christ. If this were true, he might be able to make a convincing case for excluding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from the Christian family. Since it is false, however, it is a poor marker for our status as Christian.

Now if you were asking what their motive is for labeling us as something other than Christian...beats me.

QuoteUsually, it's because those claiming Latter-day Saints aren't Christian do so by applying a personal and private definition of Christianity specifically designed to exclude groups that they disagree with. Texas Conservative here, for example is claiming I am not a Christian, even though I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior and the divine Son of God. But to him, I am not a Christian because I do not agree with him on several points of doctrine, a classic case of the 'no true scotsman fallacy.'

And sometimes people outright misrepresent what we believe to show we fall outside the Christian faith. Texas Conservative is guilty of this as well. He has claimed on multiple occasions that "Mormons" do not accept the deity of Christ. If this were true, he might be able to make a convincing case for excluding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from the Christian family. Since it is false, however, it is a poor marker for our status as Christian.

Thank you for your answer. for some reason, I've detected some hostility over the years by some Christians toward LDS. Everyone I've met have been model followers of Christ - even if some doctrine is different . Could you elaborate on what those doctrinal differences are?

QuoteThank you for your answer. for some reason, I've detected some hostility over the years by some Christians toward LDS. Everyone I've met have been model followers of Christ - even if some doctrine is different . Could you elaborate on what those doctrinal differences are?

Happy to.

For starters, we reject Creedal Christianity, meaning we do not hold as authoritative such documents as the Nicean Creed. This naturally leads to some disagreements over issues like the nature of God. Creedal Christians believe in the Trinity, (Father Son and Holy Ghost are one due to them being of one substance) whereas Latter-day Saints believe their oneness is in the perfect unity between each member of the Godhead.

We are not a "Bible Only" church. We accept as Scripture other volumes of Holy Writ such as the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants.

We claim that our church is led by a living prophet and Twelve Apostles and that continuing revelation is the lifeblood of the gospel.

We believe in performing vicarious ordinances on behalf of our deceased ancestors, such as baptism for the dead

We believe in Eternal Progression, in other words, God's ultimate work and glory is to help us become like Him.

We believe in three degrees or glories of heaven.

We reject Original Sin (though not everyone has a problem with this)

We believe in the Pre-Mortal existence

We believe Marriage is essential for exaltation

We believe that through wickedness, the fullness of the gospel was lost and needed to be restored.

There are others, and depending on who you talk to, they may take issue with some, and not others, but here's an off the top of my head list of things I could compile.

Thank you very much! I think I'm more LDS than non-LDS Christian. 

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Dec 26, 2018 - 16:40:00

QuoteFor starters, we reject Creedal Christianity, meaning we do not hold as authoritative such documents as the Nicean Creed. This naturally leads to some disagreements over issues like the nature of God. Creedal Christians believe in the Trinity, (Father Son and Holy Ghost are one due to them being of one substance) whereas Latter-day Saints believe their oneness is in the perfect unity between each member of the Godhead.

Neither do many of God's children.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 16:40:00We are not a "Bible Only" church. We accept as Scripture other volumes of Holy Writ such as the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants.

Well sir, the book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are NOT part of the HOLY WRIT.  And can easily be proven using the HOLY SCRIPTURES that WERE given by the inspiration of God HIMSELF.

QuoteWe claim that our church is led by a living prophet and Twelve Apostles and that continuing revelation is the lifeblood of the gospel.

I'm sure that your church is~the ONLY house of God is the CHURCH of the LIVING God which is the pillar and ground of ALL TRUTH where Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 16:40:00We believe in performing vicarious ordinances on behalf of our deceased ancestors, such as baptism for the dead

Well so do the people of Idolatrous people Japan~ they too worship their dead ancestors. We do not even worship our father Abraham even though he was never baptized according to the NT! Baptism is for LIVING NT saints ONLY. If you desire to consider 1st Cor. 15:29 I'll be happy to do so.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 16:40:00We believe in Eternal Progression, in other words, God's ultimate work and glory is to help us become like Him.

Eternal Progression is an impossibility! God IS a Spirit that dwells in eternity whom NO ANGELS OF MAN has ever seen, or will see, OR CAN SEE and CERTAINLY CAN NEVER BE EQUAL TO HIM! Besides each and every child of God IS LIKE Jesus Christ NOW in their inward man!

Quote from: The TRUE Apostle of Jesus Christ"1st John 3:2~"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

So many scriptures can be given to prove this point.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 16:40:00We believe in three degrees or glories of heaven.

Pray to tell me~WHERE IS HEAVEN according to your view? ANd prove that there THREE degrees in heaven, which you cannot do.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 16:40:00We reject Original Sin (though not everyone has a problem with this)

It does not surprise me, you reject EVERY TRUTH of the holy scriptures~why in world would you hold that TRUTH, and I'm THANKFUL that you do not for your system does not deserve ONE truth.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 16:40:00We believe in the Pre-Mortal existence

Premortal existence is much like incarnation of the nation of India's relglions~ again does not surprise me. Asian religions, especially Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism is where your prophet/god (Joesph Smith) got the foundation for those beliefs.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 16:40:00We believe Marriage is essential for exaltation

It does not surprise me....WHERE does that leave John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Paul?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 16:40:00We believe that through wickedness, the fullness of the gospel was lost and needed to be restored.

Well, the gates of hell have NOT prevailed and CANNOT prevail against the church of Jesus Christ~even though it may seem to be the case, it will NEVER destroy the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ~ and I can assure you that the Mormon church has ONLY added to the corruption to the gospel.

We test ALL religion by the written word of God per 1st John 4:1 and when we do, your cult is found to be against the teachings of the holy Scriptures. 

The more criticism I read about LDS, the weaker the criticism seems to be.

QuoteWell sir, the book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are NOT part of the HOLY WRIT.  And can easily be proven using the HOLY SCRIPTURES that WERE given by the inspiration of God HIMSELF.

That is your opinion RB. The LDS have a book that clarified and added to Scripture.

QuoteWe test ALL religion by the written word of God per 1st John 4:1

Using the royal "we" are we? LOL 1 John 4:1 reads

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.

Not sure how this proclamation disqualifies LDS. In my copy of the The Book of Mormon, they cite many witnesses to God and Jesus appearing. On what basis do you reject the validity of this testimonial but accept the word of witnesses of the OT & NT?