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All Israel:

Those who come out of the tribulation will not become part of the Church! The church roles will have been filled and closed before the tribulation begins, and those Christian's whose names are on the roles will be taken into heaven, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Romans 11:26, "All Israel shall be saved."

Jews who are saved, those coming out of tribulation will enter and take part in the earthly kingdom promised to the Jews by God. This will take place in the land of Israel, the portion of land promised Abraham.

Here the Lord will rule in His temple in Jerusalem; where the Jews will be kings and priests. Then through the Jews, unsaved Gentiles will come to Christ; all this taking place in the 1000 Year period we call the millennium.

Zechariah 8:23, "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; in those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt (sleeve) of him that is a Jew, saying, we will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

"All Israel" does not mean every last man, woman, and child, it speaks of the whole house, the 12 tribes will be represented; those who are direct descendants of Jacob.

Romans 11:26, "All Israel shall be saved." There is nothing in the word "saved" that tells us these Jews will be brought into eternal glory as is the Christian church. The term saved, as applied to the Jews in different parts of Scripture signifies no more than there being gathered out of the nations, separated unto God, and brought back into the land as His particular people.

Isaiah 59:20, "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob saith the Lord."

Romans 11:26 qualifies this, "Out of Zion." Paul is expressing the sense from,

Psalms 14:7, "Oh" that the salvation of Israel were to come out of Zion."

The word "All" includes the idea of oneness, a totality meaning, all 12 tribes = the whole house of Israel will be represented in the regeneration. 

LaSpino3

Hello again Phil

Luke 21:23  A: And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. 23 B: And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. NKJV

23A was fulfilled in 66AD. 23B is the next 2000 ears.

Rev 11:1  Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. NKJV

The temple belongs to God. The time of the gentiles is given another forty-two months to tread Jerusalem underfoot. The exact time the 2 witnesses testify.

We should not miss the fact that the temple appears to be in place at the latest by the start of the seven years. The Jews are already worshiping there.

Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. NKJV

The fullness of the Gentiles coming in corresponds to the end of the time of the Gentiles.

God does not pour out His wrath until the seventh trumpet. I still believe in a mid tribulation rapture.

The rest seems plausible. I Have not, as I said,  had an insight into revelation until recently.

However; those receiving Jesus through the 1000 yrs reign will not be His bride or enter the new Jerusalem in the new world.  It is clear that God's original purpose for marriage was one bride. The marriage of the Lamb was prior to the millennium. We are the bride of Christ.

sa 53:1  Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Isa 53:2  For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3  He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4  Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8  By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9  And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10  Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11  Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12  Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

True Israel, the Lord Jesus Christ, was revealed to the Jews beforehand.   Except for a remnant, they rejected Him.  They still reject Him and believe that this passage refers to a suffering nation, not a Suffering Servant.   

God expected that these things be known by the Jews before any further confirmation was given.   They should have known Him, but rejected Him.   

19, good to hear from you and notreligus.

Let's correct one error, the Greek word for Temple in Revelation 11 that John is told to measure with a "reed like unto a rod" is not any earthly Temple as was Solomon's or Herod's temple, but the heavenly temple. The word for temple used in Revelation 11 is "naos" which speaks only of the Holy of holies. John is told to measure the Holy of holies in heaven, it will be the pattern for the future Holy of Holies here on earth where Christ will rule and reign for 1000 years, this after the tribulation is over. So "neos" represents the Holy of holies, and the Greek "heiron" would point only to the whole temple.

I do not believe any third temple will be built before or during the tribulation period. The two witnesses will finish confirming the last 3 1/2 years of Christ's new covenant with the Jews, outside of Jerusalem, Christ having confirmed the first 3 1/2 years during his earthly ministry. My thinking is, the Dome of the Rock will be the center piece of the 7 years of tribulation, the place where anti-chirst will rule and where Jews who reject Chirst will receive the mark of the beast.

The altar John is told to measure has been personified in Revelation 16:7, "And I (John) heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." Because it is personified it has to represent the souls of the saints who will have been martyred during the tribulation crying out for vengance, those who had not received the mark of the beast and will have been beheaded.

Now the land John was told NOT to measure is that which David had purchased for the building of the temple. This place is the court area on Mt. Moriah where the Dome of the Rock now stands. The whole place in unclean, and is an abomination unto the LORD. This place has been given over to the Gentiles until, "the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled." One day the whole area will be made clean by Jesus Chirst the High Priest of Israel, and only then will the Lord begin His 1000 Year reign.

Your thoughts;
Phil

Quote from: LaSpino3 on Sun Dec 09, 2018 - 12:21:15
19, good to hear from you and notreligus.

Let's correct one error, the Greek word for Temple in Revelation 11 that John is told to measure with a "reed like unto a rod" is not any earthly Temple as was Solomon's or Herod's temple, but the heavenly temple. The word for temple used in Revelation 11 is "naos" which speaks only of the Holy of holies. John is told to measure the Holy of holies in heaven, it will be the pattern for the future Holy of Holies here on earth where Christ will rule and reign for 1000 years, this after the tribulation is over. So "neos" represents the Holy of holies, and the Greek "heiron" would point only to the whole temple.

I do not believe any third temple will be built before or during the tribulation period. The two witnesses will finish confirming the last 3 1/2 years of Christ's new covenant with the Jews, outside of Jerusalem, Christ having confirmed the first 3 1/2 years during his earthly ministry. My thinking is, the Dome of the Rock will be the center piece of the 7 years of tribulation, the place where anti-chirst will rule and where Jews who reject Chirst will receive the mark of the beast.

The altar John is told to measure has been personified in Revelation 16:7, "And I (John) heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." Because it is personified it has to represent the souls of the saints who will have been martyred during the tribulation crying out for vengance, those who had not received the mark of the beast and will have been beheaded.

Now the land John was told NOT to measure is that which David had purchased for the building of the temple. This place is the court area on Mt. Moriah where the Dome of the Rock now stands. The whole place in unclean, and is an abomination unto the LORD. This place has been given over to the Gentiles until, "the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled." One day the whole area will be made clean by Jesus Chirst the High Priest of Israel, and only then will the Lord begin His 1000 Year reign.

Your thoughts;
Phil

You have not corrected an error on my part. In my interlinear bible it's naon.

Matt 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. KJV

The above is also where temple is naon.

Judas would have had to fight through the priests to cast the coins into the holy of holies. If the coins were in the holy of holies the priests would not have been able to retrieve them so quick. They would have to wait until the next scheduled yearly time to enter. They probably would have had to purify the holy of holies again.

19, text, context:
If anyone desire to teach the Bible properly, one needs to purchase a more complete Greek to English Lexicon. Strong's and other limited concordances don't give enough details, stopping short of full explanations of words.  Personally, I own a Greek to English Lexicon published in 1836 and it's quite extensive. Also, I have, Thayer's Greek to English Lexicon, both are much more exhaustive in defining Greek words. 

You wrote, "you have not corrected an error on my part. In my interlinear bible it's naon."

You are correct, the Greek word "neon" is temple. Now let's examine the context. Verse 3, Judas betrayed Jesus: Jesus condemned him for his actions. Judas now feels remorse, goes to the "chief priests and elders, saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, what is that to us? See thou to that."

Hearing these words, Judas "cast down the pieces of silver in the temple," goes out and hangs himself.

We have two Greek words that translate into the English word "temple." One is "neon" and the other is, "hieron." Now ask yourself, why would you need two different words to describe the same place, in this case, the Temple? Answer, you wouldn't! The reason for two different words is because the two words point to or describe two different places.

The word "hieron" points to the whole temple complex, the sacred enclosure, the entire complex of buildings, balconies, porticos, and courts. And in the complex, there was a specific place for the men of Israel, another for the women and a place for the priests.

Now the Greek word "neon" designates only the sacred edifice properly called the sanctuary or the "Holy Place." No one except the priest was allowed to enter the Holy of holies, or most holy place.

Now let's examine the Greek word "cast." It's of the feminine gender, and means to throw or cast, with a sudden motion, to hurl, fling, to jerk. Other examples on how the word cast is used are found in,

Luke 4:35, "The devil had thrown him." Luke 17:2, "Cast into the sea." Acts 27:29, "They cast four anchors out or the stern," with verse 19, "Cast out with our own hands," implied. Acts 22:23, "Cast off their clothes."

Obviously, Judas didn't care for the lack of sympathy coming from the priests so he threw the coins into the holy place where chief priest would enter twice each day.
The high priest of the Jews, or chief priest, as spoken of in Matthew were those who were at the head of the twenty-four classes of priests mentioned, 1 Chronicles 24, and who are called kings and priests, verse 6. These were members of the Sanhedrim, therefore, the expressions Matthew 2:4, "Gathered all the chief priests."

John 7:32-45, seem to be put by way of circumlocution for the Sanhedrim; and in some instances, the word, "Chief-priests," appears to be used by itself in a general sense to denote the same council; as in John 12:10, "And the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death," collectively with John 11:47, "Then gathered the chief priests and the pharisees a council,--."

In the Temple complex there were three courts. The first is called the court of the gentiles. The second was the court of Israel, it was for all Israelite men who had been purified. The third was that of the priests, also called the holy place. Every morning and evening, the officiating priest offered incense upon the altar. No other Jews were allowed to pass a certain line of separation.
I hope this explains the difference in the two words used for "temple." 
Phil 




Phil 

Hi Phil,

You said that Naos is the Holy of Holies. As I understand it the Noas is the building that contains both the Holy place (central sanctuary) and the Holy of Holies located behind the curtain. 

I got us off topic when I mentioned about the temple. We should get back on course.

Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. NKJV

Rev 11:2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." NKJV

If the gentiles will tread Jerusalem underfoot for 42 months and the 2 witnesses will prophecy 42 months their time ends together. Verse 3 is a continuation of the sentiment of verse 2.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV

The angels are saying God considers the world, including Jerusalem, back in  His possession. If the world now belongs to Him the time of the gentiles has ended.

One more prophecy needs discussed about all Israel being saved.

Rom 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, NKJV 

What is the fullness of the gentiles? Or maybe we should ask who are the fullness of the Gentiles?

Gen 48:19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations." NKJV

In the above "a multitude of nations" is translated in some versions as fullness of nations. As we know nations can be translated gentiles. So Ephraim is the fullness of the gentiles.

After the split Ephraim is closely associated with the northern kingdom of Israel in Hosea. Could God have considered  Israel the first nation Ephraim became. If this is so the fullness of the gentiles might just be the 10 lost tribes.

Who's  "all Israel"- do you know? It's so not complicated.  It's the 12 tribes of Israel (formerly named Jacob) Those were His elect.

Here are the chain of events as I see them happening.

1. The church is removed from off the earth and will be with the Lord.

2 Two witnesses established just before 7 years of tribulation begin. They will make the gentile's and unbelieving Jews around Jerusalem quite miserable, and many will die.

3. Also, 144,000 are given God's mark, and the world will know who they are.

4. After 3 1/2 years the two witnesses will finish confirming what Christ started confirming during his earthly ministry, that being his new covenant. This will finish what is written in Daniel 9:27 concerning the 7 years of confirming of Jesus new covenant. 

5. After the two, now martyrs, are raised from the dead, they will be taken up into heaven.

6. This will be followed by the wrath of God that will come down from heaven for the last 3 1/2 years, this being called the "great tribulation" scriptures speak of. This wrath comes down from God, from the devil and from the 2ed beast. This will be the worst destroction and loss of life ever to fall upon the earth and upon man.


When the full 7 years are finished, that will finish what was written in Daniel 9:24, concerning the 490 years that God had determined upon Daniel's people the Jews.

This will be followed by 7 Years of cleasing all the land of all dead bodies, then Israel purified and prepared for Christ's 1000 Year reign.

That's my general overview;

Laspino3

LaSpino3,

Revelation shows the The New Covenant (heaven and earth) that was promised after the tribulation of those days.

The Temple represented the Hebrews "heaven and earth." The elect of Israel were gathered from one end of heaven to the other and had eternal life like the angels.

This is the great tribulation written in the Bible. There isn't another written. Jesus' disciples asked Him: Luke 21)

When Shall These Things Be?
'And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may he fulfilled.

The New Jerusalem is represented in earthly terms of the Jerusalem that is above and the mother of us all. Here you go-

Jesus also said: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Also, LaSpino, in your first post on this you said:

"Those who come out of the tribulation will not become part of the Church!"

That is wrong. Rev.7 says:

The White-robed Multitude

9  After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10  and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11  All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12  saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."

13  Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14  And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15  Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16  They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17  for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Lea, let's take your comments one step at a time.

Jesus was asked a question by his Jewish disciples, Luke 21:2-22, "When Shall These Things Be?

Luke was written to the Jews; Jesus comments concerned only the question asked, concerning only the Jews, Jerusalem and Israel. Now Luke wrote in 58 A.D. some 12 years before the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed and when more than a million Jews were killed and many thousands taken into slavery by the Roman armies. This was the beginning of God's vengeance on the Jews and the nation; it continues to this day. This is not the 7 years of tribulation. 

Luke 20-22, "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh (between 68 and 70 A.D). 21. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may he fulfilled."

The word vengeance here is used in the sense of God's vindictive justice, the punishment of evildoers, in this case the Jews who killed their Messiah. Keep in mind, there was no church when Luke wrote, Gentiles were still out of the loop until some 20 years in the future.

Luke was written by a Jew to the Jews, no church in these verses. "These (present tense) be the days (plural, these days going well into the future for the Jews and Israel) of vengeance." Words and warnings so often spoken by the O.T. prophets concerning Israel and its people. All their predictions from this point forward and for the next 2000 years are being and will continue to be fulfilled. 

Now you quote Revelation 7. These events in Revelation 7 take the reader into  the tribulation. You appear to have this great blender, throwing verses that concerning events before, during and after the tribulation together, events that concern only the Jews, not the church, then mix them all together. You can't do that! Hmmm, I guess you can, but your picture wont be very clear.

Bottom line, the LORD has dealt with, and is still dealing with and will continue to deal with the Jews and the nation seperately until all has been fulfilled all his promises concerning them. He deals with His bride seperately from the Jews. The churches kingdom is heavenly: God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and David will be kept by God, promises made only to the Jews. Theirs will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ, and by his 12 apostiles,

Jesus is speaking to the 12, Luke 22:30, "That you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of israel." 

And the men of Israel who come out of the tribulation will do the following during the 1000 year reign,

Zechiarah 8:22-23, "Many people (Gentiles) and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts (armies) in Jerusalem, and to pray BEFORE the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; in those days (1000 year reign) it shall come to pass, that ten men (Gentiles) shall take hold out of all (Gentile) languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt (sleave) of him that is a Jew, saying, we will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

This is one of the great purposes of Jesus Christ during the 1000 year reign. It will end when the devil is loosed and brings an army of people with him in order to destroy the Lord's kingdom, but we know how that ends.

Jesus will rule from the Holy of Holies, the one John was told to measure in Revelation 11, it having no curtain or walls of partition to prevent the people from appearing in person before the Lord. 
Laspino3

LaSpino said:

Quote
Bottom line, the LORD has dealt with, and is still dealing with and will continue to deal with the Jews and the nation seperately until all has been fulfilled all his promises concerning them. He deals with His bride seperately from the Jews. The churches kingdom is heavenly: God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and David will be kept by God, promises made only to the Jews. Theirs will be an earthly kingdom ruled by Christ, and by his 12 apostiles,

OUTRAGEOUS! (I watch 3rd rock from the sun a lot!) No way That paragraph makes no sense. Where is it written that Jesus was going to rule in an earthly kingdom (aside from a spiritual one)

NOWHERE! The apostles judging the 12 tribes of Israel happens after their death. They reign (literally) for a thousand years in heaven with Christ. They are the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation.

And Luke did not write to Jews but about Jews.  He was a Gentile himself. One of  Paul's gentile companions.  Matthew wrote chapter 24 to Jews.

Luke21- 22-For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Coming of the Son of Man
25"And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. ]28Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

And there were gentile Christians before 58 AD. 1Thess was written in 51 AD. 1Corinth. in 53 AD. etc, etc.

Lea, you wrote, "The apostles judging the 12 tribes of Israel happens after their death. They reign (literally) for a thousand years in heaven with Christ. They are the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation.

Phil replies, Obviously the 12 are dead, and obviously they will reign literally with Christ for 1000 Years, but what you have incorrectly written is, "They are the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation."

Nope! Those in Matthew 27:52-53 were the first. Another error is, "The first reseurrection concerns 3 orders meaning ranks or files, call them what you will; the 1st of the 3 are found in Matthew 27, the 2ed is found in both 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and the third of the saved are found in Revelation 20:4, those saints who did not receive the mark of the beast. All three represent the 1st resurrection, like 3 in 1. The second resurrection is a resurrection unto death, compare Rev.20:5 with verse 13-14-15.

As far as Luke goes, some think him to be a gentile and others believe him to be a Jew. I base my conviction on the following verse, Romans 3:1-2, "What advantage then has the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision (speaking of Jews)? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them (the Jews) were committed the oracles of God." Oracles meaning divine communication, living sayings, and to my understanding, Luke's gospel falls into that catagory.

Have a Merry Christmas and stay safe!

Also, we can discuss God dealing with the (unbelieving) Jews and the land of Israel intself seperately from the church, but after the New Year, God bless!

Phil

Phil,
Actually, Matt.27- the Bible does not say "resurrected" in particular. Sure they were a sign of Jesus' power. But those died again at some point.
1Corinthians 15:51-53 speaks of the 7th trumpet in Rev.11. Revelation is a book of 7's. It is not in chronological order.
1Thess.4:16-17 Paul speaks about when Christ returns the dead would rise first and then after the alive ones die, they will also meet Christ in the air as their departed loved ones did. Rev.20:4 are part of the First resurrection. Yes.

No one ever wrote or said Luke was a Jew!

He was not! He was a Macedonian, a physician, and definitely a gentile.

Over the holidays, you should do some research regarding Luke (who wrote the book of Acts)

Merry Christmas and happy , healthy, prosperous new year to you. Praise the Lord!

Quote from: lea on Tue Dec 18, 2018 - 14:25:04Who's  "all Israel"- do you know? It's so not complicated.  It's the 12 tribes of Israel (formerly named Jacob) Those were His elect.

Without going through all of the posts above, much of which is totally wrong, we will add these thoughts and then address any point in which any may disagree.

Quote from: PaulRomans 11:26-28~"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes; but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."

If we go back to verse 25 of Romans 11, we read:

Quote from: The Holy Ghost"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

These words are plainly a prophecy of the state in which the Jewish people were to exist throughout this present age, and that it says nothing whatever as to their state thereafter, it is now commonly interpreted as predicting that, in a future "dispensation," the whole nation is to be healed of its spiritual blindness. The next words of the passage are these:

Quote"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes; but as touching the election they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."

These scriptures likewise have been misunderstood and explained in the interest of the modern dispensationalism~mainly the premill side. These words by Paul designed to be LIMITED strictly to this church age, but perverted by many into one relating wholly to a future age, so this passage also is lifted bodily out of the age where the Spirit of God has placed it, and is transported to a future age, an age which exists only in the imagination of men. For the passage is usually interpreted precisely as if it read, "And then all Israel shall be saved," instead of "And so all Israel shall be saved."

Indeed all that is needed for the correction of this gigantic "dispensational" error is first to note the significance of that little word "so," and then to ascertain its meaning from the context, which is easily done.

The adverb "so" answers to the question "How?" It says nothing at all in answer to the question "When?" Yet my experience has been that, whenever Romans 11:26 is cited by dispensationalists, it is presented as proof that the entire Jewish race, reconstituted into an earthly nation, is to be saved in a future "dispensation"~apart from the dispensation of the times of Jesus Christ which ARE THE LAST DAYS, with NO MORE COMING THEREAFTER.  In fact, however, the passage teaches the very opposite; namely: that the phrase "all Israel" means, not the entire Jewish race of a future age, but the entire body of the redeemed of this gospel age. The word "so" occurs in the concluding part of the passage and hence necessarily refers back to the preceding verses, where the apostle, after explaining who they are that constitute God's true "Israel," tells in detail, and illustrates by the figure of the "good olive tree," just how God's Israel was to "be saved." He there describes beforehand precisely what God has been doing from that day to this; and when he finished his description, and has illustrated it with marvelous clearness by the figure of the olive tree, he brings the matter to a conclusion by saying: "And so" ~that is, in the manner he had been describing~ "all Israel shall be saved." And he adds that the saving of "all Israel" in that manner would fulfil certain Old Testament prophecies, which he quotes.

If therefore we simply ascertain from the preceding verses (as can be done with little trouble and with certainty) who are the "all Israel" of God's purpose, and how they were to "be saved," we shall also ascertain in the process when they were to be saved.

WHO ARE THE "ALL ISRAEL" OF ROMANS 11:26?~latter.......RB

WHO ARE THE "ALL ISRAEL" OF ROMANS 11:26?~I have heard this debated and discussed so many times by so many different schools of thoughts for the past forty-five years. It has become plain to me that " "ALL ISRAEL"of Romans 11:26 is the whole body of God's redeemed people, redeemed by the grace of God, through the obedience of Jesus Christ. Salvation is by GRACE, not by bloodline as so many believe, even though they would never say they believe in that, yet their very doctrine teaches that they do indeed believe in that doctrine

The redeemed is composed of "the election" (which, as Paul has taught us, has "obtained" what the natural Israel as a whole had "not obtained") with the addition thereto of believers from among the Gentiles. For the main purpose of the scriptures in the NT (Romans 9-11) and that also of chapter four, and likewise of Galatians (chapters 3,4) is to make known that the real "Israel," the true "children of Abraham," who SHALL inherit the promises of God, are not the natural seed of Abraham but his spiritual seed.

Paul, a Jew does in the NT proves his doctrine, and at the same time exhibits the great difference between Abraham's natural seed and his spiritual, by citing the historical fact that "Abraham had TWO sons" (Galatians 4:22); and from the Old Testament records of the very different things that befell Ishmael and Isaac respectively, Paul deduces the great difference, in the purposes of God, between the unbelieving mass of the Israelitish people (answering to the son of the bondwoman) and the believing "remnant" (answering to the son of the freewoman). For those things, the apostle tells us, "are an allegory," the meaning of which he proceeds to explain for us in Galatians 4:21-31.

Abraham's elder son, Ishmael, represents the natural man apart from the promises of God and his grace through Christ, are those "born after the flesh."  Moreover, even after Isaac appeared upon the scene, Ishmael continued for a time in occupation of the premises, and took advantage of his position to persecute the true heir. The period when Ishmael and Isaac were both under one roof and the former still had the status of a son and heir of Abraham, answers to the time from Pentecost to the destruction of Jerusalem. For during that period natural Israel, "the son of the bondwoman," still occupied the holy land and city, and "persecuted" the true Israel (Galatians 4:29; 1st Thessalonians 2:15).

But that era of the overlapping of "the two covenants" was of short duration. For "what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bond woman and her son: for the son of the bond woman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman" (Galatians 4:30)~ And the next verse gives us the application of the incident: "So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bond woman, but of the free."

The meaning of the words, "shall not be heir," is free from all uncertainty. Those words mean that the promises of God to Abraham are all for his spiritual seed. And this, moreover, is precisely what the apostle had already said in plain language: "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" (3:7). "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (3:29). The same truth is plainly taught in Romans 4:13-16.

Coming now to Romans 9-11, it is the plain teaching of that passage (1) that God's true "Israel," the nation concerning which it is said, "And so all Israel shall be saved," is the whole body of the redeemed of the Lord: and (2) that, that body is composed of the believing "remnant" of the natural Israel (the "remnant according to the election of grace," Romans 11:15) with the addition thereto of believing Gentiles. Those two elements, so diverse and antagonistic by nature, are incorporated into a spiritual unity, "the unity of the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:12-18, 4:3). And this is according to that "mystery" of God's eternal purpose, which was not clearly revealed in ages past, but now is made fully known (Ephesians 3:4-6). That "mystery" is what is graphically illustrated by the olive tree of Romans 11. And as regards the salvation of natural Israel in a future era, so far from teaching that doctrine, the passage we are studying was written for the purpose of refuting it.

This will very clearly appear in what follows. Later......RB

While the believing national Jews and the Church can be called "all Israel,"  in Romans 9-11, Paul is more focused on the hardened Jews being saved in the mystery. He specifically says oh how would their fullness would be if they are grafted back in through faith this time!
But Paul also says that their reward could life from the dead. We know many unbelieving national Jews were not saved in this life when the Romans took one and killed another during the war.

Still, I believe Paul's focus was on those being saved after death. (At judgment day)

He really wasn't speaking to the gentile believers in particular.

Quote from: lea on Mon Dec 24, 2018 - 11:19:13Still, I believe Paul's focus was on those being saved after death. (At judgment day)

No one is saved after death.  The judgment seat of Christ is not to determine who is saved and who is not.  That determination is made in this life. We will all, saved and not saved, stand before the judgment seat of Christ to answer for what we are due for the things we have done (Rom 14:10; 2 Cor 5:10).

the continuation of Reply #16 on: Today at 06:59:39 by RB

Romans 9-11 begins with the declaration of a fact which caused the apostle great heaviness and continual sorrow in his heart, namely, that "they are not all Israel which are of Israel" (9: 6) A MYSTERY HIDDEN in the OT scriptures of the Jewish people. Observe here the phrase, "all Israel," concerning which we are now inquiring. And observe further that what we here are told is, not what it includes, but what it does not include. The "all Israel" of this passage does not embrace all who are Israelites. Paul is here speaking of his "kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites" (ver. 3,4). And what caused him such acute anguish of mind was the fact, revealed to him by the Spirit of God, that not all these, but indeed only a few of them, were to be included in the "all Israel" of God's purposes. It is simply impossible that Paul could have penned those words of poignant grief; it is impossible, I say, that he could have wished himself "accursed from Christ" for the sake of his "kinsmen according to the flesh" if he had held and was about to declare the doctrine now frequently attributed to him, namely, that all the Israelites in the world were to be saved at the second coming of Christ~an event the Christians of that day regarded as imminent. That doctrine, which was the very cornerstone of the Judaism of that day, Paul had cast aside; and it was moreover an important part of his ministry to expose the falsity of it.

The next two verses make the matter still clearer. There we read:

Quote from: PaulRomans 9:7,8~"Neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children: but 'in Isaac shall thy seed be called.' That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

This calls for no explanation by us; for it is the Spirit's own explanation. We need only to observe that the reason why the truth here stated caused the apostle such acute distress was that it so rigidly excludes from God's salvation all the natural descendants of Abraham except the few who were of the faith of Abraham (Romans 4:13-16) that is, those who believed the gospel~and if they do not believe the gospel WITHIN THIS DISPENSATION then there will be NO salvation for him, period.

The apostle then proceeds to make known that it had been God's plan and purpose from the beginning to save~not all the natural descendants of Abraham, but~only such as He should choose. And here we have the doctrine of "election" (Romans 9:10-26) which takes its name from the fact that God makes an "election" or choice, from among Jews and Gentiles, of those He will save and have eternally as His people. This principle of God's sovereign choice is illustrated by the case of Esau and Jacob (vv. 10-13) where His choice was made before the children were born.

In the closing verses of chapter 9:27-33) Paul returns to the matter that was causing him such acute sorrow, namely that, as Isaiah had prophesied,

Quote"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant  shall be saved."

That remnant is the Jewish part of "the election"; and thus we have a clear light upon verse 26 of Chapter 11; for the words "a remnant shall be saved," helps to explain the words, "all Israel shall be saved."

In chapter 10 the apostle, after expressing the desire of his heart and his prayer to God for Israel after the flesh "that they might be saved," teaching us that EVEN AMONG THE VERY ELECT AMOMG ISRAEL many of them DID NOT SEE WHAT WAS REVEALED TO HIM by the Spirit concerning THE MYSTERY of God bringing in the Gentiles through the SAME SYSTEM that Abraham was proved to be a child of God~THROUGH THE SYSTEM OF FAITH ALONE, and NOT through the law, circumcision, etc.

Paul goes on to show that none can be saved to the true knowledge of this EXCEPT by believing the gospel ("the word of faith which we preach," v. 8); and that in respect to this vital matter there is "no difference between the Jew and the Greek. For whosoever shall call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved." And the chapter closes with a strong intimation that the Israelitish nation as a whole would not be saved; the word of Jehovah to that nation being, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands unto a disobedient and galnsaying people" (v. 21). The reason why is that they sought it BY THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and not through Christ alone.

Special heed should be given to the first part of chapters 10 and 11. It shows that God's rejection of Israel nationally does not warrant the conclusion that God has cast away His people. For, as we have already seen, God's part of the nation, that is, the election, He did not then cast away, and never will. Hence, in bestowing upon "the election" what had been promised to "Israel," God was fulfilling His promises strictly in accordance with their true intent. The result is that "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded" (11:7). The blindness is TWOFOLD~one blindness is where God leaves them in their sins, the other blindness is where God regenerates some, and THEY for want of TRUE KNOWLEDGE continue to go about laboring to establishing their own righteousness and refuse to submit to themselves UNTO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD provided THROUGH the life of his Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord. Many TRUE and godly SEEKERS on this forum fall unto Romans 10:1-13! Selah.

Seeing therefore that "the election," by believing the gospel of Christ, has obtained (and certainly will never be deprived of) that which God had promised to "Israel," it is clear that "the remnant according to the election of grace," with believers from among the Gentiles added, is the "Israel" of the prophetic Scriptures. Indeed it is evident, upon an impartial study of the entire section (9-11), that its main purpose is to make known that very fact.

And this purpose stands forth in the clearest light in the figure of the olive tree, whereby the apostle, at the end of the passage, illustrates the truth he has been expounding. That olive tree represents "the Israel of God," "the election," the "one body" of the redeemed. Not all who are of Israel are in it. On the contrary, many of the natural branches, "because of unbelief were broken off" (v. 20). And on the other hand, many believing Gentiles are included; these being the branches of "the olive tree which is wild by nature," which branches have been "grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree." This is the fulfilment of all God's purposes and promises, the final outcome of all His dealings in grace with both Jews and Gentiles.


I want to come back and finish later.....RB

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Dec 24, 2018 - 11:31:12
No one is saved after death.  The judgment seat of Christ is not to determine who is saved and who is not.  That determination is made in this life. We will all, saved and not saved, stand before the judgment seat of Christ to answer for what we are due for the things we have done (Rom 14:10; 2 Cor 5:10).

Part of Israel was hardened. True, they were the ones that would not be saved from national Israel. They were to suffer God's wrath in this life too.

Those whose names were not written in the Book of Life would not go to heaven. Not saved in this life or after death.

the continuation of~ Replies #19 on: 12-23-2018 at 14:03:33 and #16 on: 12-24-2018 at 06:59:39 by RB

And now, in seeking an answer to the question, who are the all Israel that are to be saved according to the teachings of the OT prophets? ALL of the election of grace shall be saved from their sins and the condemnation of those sins through Jesus Christ~BOTH Jews and Gentiles that makes up the Tabernacle of God that he PROMISED to build in David's son, Jesus, the son of David through both of his earthly parents. Matthew one, and Luke three.

Now here comes the hardest point to see, and the main reason there is so much confusion among people professing the name of Jesus Christ. Romans eleven is without question a difficult chapter to grasp hold of if you desire truth and want to stay free of just being a rubber stamp of following your group in their teaching which most do.

I will need two more posts to finish the summary of ALL ISRAEL.

CHAPTER ELEVEN~Here are details of God's transfer of gospel and kingdom privileges from Israel to Gentiles, as prophesied. The great mystery of godliness as prophesied by OT prophets was thus finished (Ist Timothy 3:16) ~preached to Gentiles, believed in the world. We see Paul in Romans 9-11 using great care and desire for his elect countrymen (9:1-5; 10:1-4) who HAVE NOT AS OF YET COME TO SEE WHAT HE KNOWS TO BE THE TRUTH EVEN THOUGH SOME OF THEM HAD THE FEAR OF GOD AND ZEAL FOR HIM YET NOT BASED ON TRUE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH~THESE ARE THE VERY ONES THAT PAUL WAS AFTER SEEKING TO CONVERT THEM TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH....THey are the very ones that were still blinded~remember I said blindness was two-fold in the scriptures even God's very elect all have a certain amount of blindness and Paul was AFTER his countrymen that SHOW PROOF THAT THEY WERE PART OF THE ELECTION OF GRACE YET STILL IGNORANT concerning Jesus Christ and the TRUE RELIGION that has him as Lord and Saviour, which Judaism did/does not.

With a clear understanding of what Paul taught in 9-10 will certainly help our comprehension here. Romans 11 is a difficult chapter e.g. Jewish restoration fables, election and blinding, branches broken off and graffed in again, difficult definitions and timing, phases of salvation, various uses of same words, etc.

It is hard to find teachers that agree in all the details of this chapter. Many teachers avoid it if at all possible. Gentiles should learn respect (11:16), humility (11:18,25), fear (11:20-22), thankfulness (11:22), and evangelistic zeal (11:14,30-32) by this lesson of God's mercy toward the elect remnant of the Jewish nation. It glorifies the inscrutable wisdom and mercy of God as Paul closes it with exclamatory praise and worship. This chapter will finish Paul's teaching of God's mercies, leading to your living sacrifice (Rom 12:1-2) and miscellaneous practical duties in the rest of the epistle typical of Paul's division of doctrine and practice.

Simple Summary: God elected only some of national Israel to be His people, and He cast away the rest, leaving them in perpetual and total darkness. In providential wisdom, He also blinded some of elect Israel to further assist redirecting the gospel to the Gentiles during this key reformational and transitional generation. Gentiles were to respect these blind but elect Jews, be humbled by the exchange, fear their own gospel standing, desire Jewish conversions, and be thankful. When this transfer of gospel and kingdom privileges from Israel to Gentiles was complete, the blind part of elect Israel would convert. Who could conceive such dealings without revelation?

Simple Outline:1-6 God had an elect remnant in Paul's day like in Elijah's day. 7-10 God had completely and permanently blinded reprobate Israel. 11-15 Elect Israel stumbled at the gospel for the Gentiles and jealousy. 6-24 Gentiles to be appreciative and humble; Israel may be recovered. 25-29 Some elect Israelites were blinded to the gospel for Gentiles. 30-32 God brought about mercy to elect Gentiles and to elect Israel. 33-36 God's electing grace and wisdom are worthy of great adoration.

Later....RB

Right. God hardened some Jews and they would remain hardened even up to the destruction of the temple.

So that's it. I hadn't looked at Romans 9-11 in a while.

All Israel being saved are the believing Hebrews and the gentile Christians that believed and were grafted into God's olive tree.

Merry Christmas everyone!  Jesus loves you big time!  Happy birthday Jesus! 

Romans chapter eleven~Truths we must understand in order to Guide the Interpretation of this Chapter

This is a very difficult chapter for a child of God to get his understanding around the MAIN TRUTH taught in this chapter and it's concerning this one verse:

QuoteRomans 11:25~"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Understand this verse and v26 is also understood, miss the truth in this verse and one will be confused on verse 26. I believe as I said above that ALL Israel is the whole body of the redeemed, which IS true, but it is NOT the main truth taught in vs 25,26, Please follow me carefully. and consider:

There is clearly an election of grace within the nation of Israel that is identified as God's true children (9:6,24), etc. There is no further benefit for being an Israelite in chapters 9-11, as God's children are distinct from the nation. The election in Israel must be kept in mind to rightly identify "Israel" as national Israel or elect Israel. There is a part of Israel that is absolutely not children of God's promises (9:24; 11:7; Matthew 23:33; Revelation 2:9; 3:9; Galatians 4:21-31).

Scripture MUST BE taken and understood as a cohesive whole, so only doctrine taught elsewhere in the Bible should be found here. We require two or three witnesses as a minor rule of Bible interpretation before teaching any doctrine. Many are the wild notions about a latter-day conversion of national Israel that are created from this text. By some very sincere and godly believers

Let it be very clear that the Jews do not have anything held out for them in this chapter that is not held out for them in other places. Gentiles are in the olive tree now, so grafting Jews in again or their fullness is not a millennial kingdom. We will not put up a middle wall of partition in any way to restore Jewish privilege that Jesus destroyed. We must defend the finished work of the cross that Jews and Gentiles are one (Galatians 3:28-29; Ephesians 2:14-22). The real seed of Abraham is not natural Jews.

Paul rejected Jewish fables as contrary to the gospel and to be opposed by great ministerial zeal and so must we. (Titus 1:9-16). The warning is clear enough and the apostolic history clear enough that there were heresies circulating. Any idea of restoration to the land, earthly Jerusalem, a third temple, or Jewish preeminence is heresy. So many believe that if they believe in that fable then God is pleased with them in protecting Israel after the flesh, but nothing is farther from the truth than that lie.  There is no New Testament support for earthly revival, restoration, or anything remarkable for them. Follow the Lord Jesus and Paul regarding them (Matthew 23:33; Hebrews 12:22-24; Revelation 2:9; 3:9; Galatians 4:21-31). There is no future regathering, salvation, revival, or program of any kind for biological or national Jews. God has left for the most part biological and national people with in extraordinary blindness to the gospel. God's elect of both Jews and Gentiles comprise one new kingdom, nation, body, or church in Christ. The tabernacle of David, or another term for the olive tree, was being built currently (Acts 15:13-18). Any present or future kingdom must be spiritual and described elsewhere (Hebrews 12:22-24,28-29; 13:14).

The real seed of Abraham and heirs of the promises are Christ's by faith and baptism (Galatians 3:16,26-29). Rightly dividing scripture for the sense is key, as several terms are used differently (Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15). Consider 11:1-2 with 11:15, where they absolutely were not cast away, but they, in fact, were cast away! Please consider 11:11-12, where they absolutely did not fall, but did fall, and their fall produced great things! Is it national or elect Israel? Which one of the two Israels found in 9:6 is to be understood in 11:1-11? Ponder carefully.

Proportion will avoid extreme views of one generation of believing Jews trumping 2000 years of enmity. Jewish blindness has not contributed to any Gentile conversion you know personally outside scripture. Jealousy does not run under the surface for 2000 years and then result in a generation loving Christ. One future generation of converted Jews does not match 70 generations since Paul that hated Christ!

In these chapters, Israel = Jews, Gentiles = non-Jews, and the two are never combined as "Israel" (Galatians 6:16).

The key verse is 11:11, as you must identify an antecedent for the pronouns and stick with it in the chapter.

This antecedent had fallen, but had not fallen, and their fall was for the benefit of the Gentiles and Jews. This antecedent had fallen, but there was still potential for them to be saved by Paul's labors (11:14-15). No matter how you interpret 11:1-10, you must apply 11:11 to one or the other half of Israel in 11:1-10. No matter how you interpret 11:1-10, you must see 11:11 as a description of elect but blinded Jews.  If 11:1-10 describes converted and blinded parts of elect Israel, "they" of 11:11 must be the blinded rest. If 11:1-10 describes elect and reprobate parts of national Israel, "they" of 11:11 must be the election.

Prophetic perspective identifies and separates future tense verbs of quoted verses from the current writing. For example, the future tense of Acts 2:17 was future only to Joel, not to Peter who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Acts 15:16 was future only to Amos, not James who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Heb 8:8-12 was future only to Jeremiah, not Paul who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Heb 12:26 was future only to Haggai, not Paul who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Mat 17:11 was future only to Malachi, not Jesus, who limited it to then. For example, the future tense of Rom 11:26-27 was future only to Isaiah, not Paul who limited it to then.

Eternal life and gospel salvation must be understood based on all of scripture and preceding chapters. Eternal life is an unconditional gift of God, and gospel faith is not it has its condition, instrument, or means. As we have mentioned several times salvation is bestowed in five phases, (Eternal, legal, vital, PRACTICAL and final) and they are to be kept distinct, especially the fourth from others~failure to do so will cause a sincere saint to miss much hidden truth in the scriptures. Paul has already taught these facts regarding salvation in 5:12-19 and 8:28-39 and 9:6-24 and 10:5-17. The only salvation that was a mere possibility and Paul could bring about himself is gospel salvation. Gospel salvation is that found in I Timothy 4:16 and I Corinthians 15:2 and James 5:19-20, etc., etc. The salvation Paul has been pursuing (10:1) has been gospel conversion only for elect Israelites only.

By cheating ahead, we see a blinded, elect portion of Israel that was a "mystery" requiring explanation that truly explains the whole chapter, since Paul "might" save "some" of these. Blinded national Jews were no mystery at all, because they are described throughout the scriptures and in this epistle as early as chapter 2.

Some verses are more key than others in opening the passage for properly understanding its overall lessons. The pronoun "they" in 11:11 is most key, as a division between 11:1-10 and 11:11-32 must occur. The olive tree needs to be correctly identified and not simply assumed or overlooked as obvious. There is a "mystery" in 11:25, and a number of facts about the Jews was no mystery at all.

All Israel being saved in 11:26 should be identified by the Israel in context and the salvation prophesied. There are unconverted elect in this passage (11:28-29), and their case and precedent is quite important.

The HIDDEN MYSTERY of Romans 11:25 is still hidden to most since the majority of expositors rush to distant futurism. The tabernacle of David, or another term for the olive tree, was being built currently (Acts 15:13-18). Note Paul's use of the present in 11:1,5,11,14,17,22-24,25,28,30-32. There is nothing of distant future in Romans eleven. So what is the meaning of these scriptures:

QuoteRomans 11:24-36~"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

As a starter I will say THE MYSTERY of Romans 11:25 is this: In Paul's days (and truly all through the scriptures is this true and even NOW it is STILL the truth) that there were ELECT children of God who were not as of yet CONVERTED to the truth, to the degree that Paul and the apostles and many other saints enjoy, YET they were born of God proven by Romans 10:1-5, yet THEY were still going about establishing their own righteousness and AS OF YET had not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God, that HE PROVIDED BT CHRIST for them!   Paul prayed for THESE blinded elect Jews, because he KNEW that they had the fear of God and zeal, YET NOT according to TRUE KNOWLEDGE! These were the very ones that Paul became all things to them that by some means he could convert them to the truth as it is in Jesus Christ~Nevetheless, ALL ISRAEL will be saved including these ones whose knowledge leads them to reject a salvation that the gospel offers to those that TRUST IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE as their righteousness before God.

So the mystery of Romans 11:25 IS NOT that there is future salvation for NATIONAL ISRAEL, but there were regenerate children of God who opposed Paul and the righteousness of God that Paul preached as the ONLY means whereby one is truly justified before God. Romans 11:27-36 PROVES what we are saying is the truth of Romans 11:25-27.

QuoteRe: All Israel:

Are in short.............. ALL of the elect Jews, BOTH converted to the truth and the ones NOT as of yet converted! There in one sentence is the truth of Romans 11:25-27~It would be MUCH easier to convert a regenerated Jew to the truth, than a regenerated Gentile who as of yet was NOT converted with true knowledge.

Quote from: PaulRomans 11:23,24~"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"

Quote from: RB on Wed Dec 26, 2018 - 04:48:54It would be MUCH easier to convert a regenerated Jew to the truth, than a regenerated Gentile who as of yet was NOT converted with true knowledge.

Define convert.  That is a truly weird sentence. 

"It would be MUCH easier to convert a regenerated Jew to the truth, than [to convert] a regenerated Gentile who as of yet was NOT converted with true knowledge."    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Convert the regenerated or regenerate the converted??  Which is it?  Define converted in your theology. 

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Dec 26, 2018 - 06:25:49Convert the regenerated or regenerate the converted??  Which is it?  Define converted in your theology.

I am heading to Atlanta to pick up some grandsons to bring them back with me to S.C. I will be more than happy to do so in the morning. Rengeration and conversion are NOT the same~ maybe in your understanding they are, but not according to the scriptures.  Enjoy the time spent with your son from NH and we'll talk later.  RB

Quote from: RB on Wed Dec 26, 2018 - 07:55:48 Rengeration and conversion are NOT the same~ maybe in your understanding they are, but not according to the scriptures.  Enjoy the time spent with your son from NH and we'll talk later.  RB

I agree that they are not the same thing and I have never said that they are.  However, you should read over your sentence very carefully, because it doesn't really make any sense regardless the strict meaning of the words regenerate and convert.

You implied that it is difficult to "convert a regenerated Gentile who was NOT converted".  That would suggest that it is easier to "convert a regenerated Gentile who was converted". ? ? ? ?  Why would a regenerated Gentile who was converted need to be converted?

Quote from: RB on Wed Dec 26, 2018 - 04:48:54
Are in short.............. ALL of the elect Jews, BOTH converted to the truth and the ones NOT as of yet converted! There in one sentence is the truth of Romans 11:25-27~It would be MUCH easier to convert a regenerated Jew to the truth, than a regenerated Gentile who as of yet was NOT converted with true knowledge.

Only the Remnant would be saved when the Deliverer comes to Zion and removes iniquity from Jacob.

Not the hardened ones, They remained hardened. They were Israel of the flesh only.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Dec 26, 2018 - 06:25:49Define convert.  That is a truly weird sentence. 

"It would be MUCH easier to convert a regenerated Jew to the truth, than [to convert] a regenerated Gentile who as of yet was NOT converted with true knowledge."    ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Convert the regenerated or regenerate the converted??  Which is it?  Define converted in your theology.

It's only weird to you and most likely to others who holds to conditonal regeneration in whatever form they hold to conditional salvation from sin and condemnation to eternal life~ and as we know and as you know there are a few of them.

Quote from: 4WD Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 06:25:49Convert the regenerated or regenerate the converted?? Which is it?

God ALONE regenerates a sinner from being dead in trespasses and sin to life in Jesus Christ~soley by his will, grace, and power. Man is totally passive God alone is the only active person in this new birth. It can take place anywhere FROM after conception to death of the body. In between those two points it can take place at anytime~you could be sleeping, working, dying, making love, IT DOES NOT MATTER since God alone is the ONLY active person in this birth and the sinner is DEAD IN HIS SINS~the Spirit comes and goes just like the wind, you do NOT know when it's coming and neither when it is leaving. It is just like the wind , you cannot see it, but you ONLY see the EFFECTS of it. Bottom line~a sinner is born OF GOD, not by the will of the flesh, or the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

Not so with a conversion of a person, he is ACTIVE going from error to truth, from darkness to lights, from ignorance to true understanding, etc. Please consider the differences between REGENERATION AND CONVERSION~Regeneration and conversion are Bible words. Both words identify a spiritual work in the child of God. However, they do not refer to the same thing.

REGENERATION~Regeneration is wholly of God. It is the Holy Spirit's quickening work whereby spiritual life is given to the sinner "by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5). The word comes from "re" meaning "again" and "generate" meaning "to beget." Jesus identified this work of God as being "born again" (John 3:3). The Bible is emphatic that God "of his own will begat" us (James 1:18), even as Jesus claimed He "quickeneth whom He will" (John 5:21).

Eternal life, i.e., spiritual life, is God's sovereign gift bestowed in regeneration. While invisible to men, this life is demonstrated by man's response in conversion. Note especially the absence in Scripture of even one command for a sinner to seek regeneration.

CONVERSION~Is the response of the regenerated child of God to his Heavenly Father's will and commandments. The word means to "turn" or "turn about." Thus it was foretold of John the Baptist's ministry, "and many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God" (Luke 1:16). Those John turned are declared to be already related to "the Lord their God" but needed to turn about and obey Him. Jesus describes the Apostle Peter's denial and recovery by saying, "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren"~Peter was an apostle who NEEDED a conversion form teh erro of his way...not once but again and again as we read throughout the NT.  (Luke 22:32).

James explains the departure of a Christian brother from the truth can be corrected if another "converteth the sinner from the error of his way" (James 5:20).

Numerous exhortations and commandments are addressed to the saved, i.e., regenerated children of God, calling them from sin, error, and ignorance to righteousness, truth and joyful assurance in fellowship with God (1st John 1:3, 7-9). A person's conversion is usually in proportion to his understanding of and obedience to Bible truth. I have had many during my life of living the Christian life of faith, and STILL seeing myself going through conversion TO THE TRUTH, it's an ongoing process for us a God's children, AT LEAST it should be.

REGENERATION CONTRASTED WITH CONVERSION~While regeneration is a once-for-all event, conversion will occur in steps depending upon one
learning to follow God's revealed will.

REGENERATION~God's work; Sovereignly given; One time; Inward Work; Complete at once.

Conversion~our response; Conditional; fellowship; Repeated; Outward evidence; Partial in steps.

REGENERATION AND CONVERSION~Unless one holds to the false theory of sinless perfection, every child of God will have some area(s) where he needs to experience conversion. That is, there will be doctrines, ideas, habits or personality traits that need to be changed and replaced by God's perfect and revealed will.

RESULTS OF CONFUSING REGENERATION AND CONVERSION Many teachers of religion confuse the words ~regeneration and conversion....making both refer
to being eternally saved or born again. Therefore, they put various conversion commands upon the unsaved. DO you know WHO that may be? I do!

This has resulted in the present popular theology of conditional or decisional regeneration. It is commonly preached that the sinner must do something or meet some condition before God can or will save him. Conditions vary from one church or evangelist to another, but may include praying the sinner's prayer, confessing faith in Jesus, making Jesus Lord, water baptism, joining the church, taking communion or other works of righteousness.

REGENERATION AND CONVERSION CONDITIONAL REGENERATION REFUTED The following Scriptures mark as error this teaching of requiring a sinner to meet some condition before God can save or regenerate him.

1. Salvation is "not of works" (Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5), which excludes faith since faith is a "work" (John 6:28-29), is "of the law" (Matthew 23:23) and is keeping a "commandment" (1st John 3:23).

2. Faith, love of brethren and righteous deeds all result because one "is born of God" (1st John 5:1, 4; 4:7; 2:29), and thus cannot be the means or conditions required before God saves a person. These are evidences showing one already has eternal life (John 3:36; 5:24).

3. An unsaved man cannot receive spiritual things (1st Corinthians 2:14), cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8) and will not come to Christ (John 5:40). He must be given spiritual life first.

4. Men are eternally saved according to God's will (Ephesians 1:4-5); John 3:8; 17:2; Romans 9:15), not according to man's will (John 1:13; Romans 9:11, 16).

5. The gospel reveals the good news of salvation only to those who "are saved" (1st Corinthians 1:18, 24), thus bringing spiritual "life and immorality to light" as proof and assurance of God's salvation (2nd Timothy 1:10; Acts 13:48). God's salvation is a "free gift" without any conditions (Romans 5:15-18; 6:23!

Hope this makes it clear as to the differences between regeneration and conversion. But I would love to discuss the MYSTERY of Romans 11:25 with ANYONE. Who are ALL ISRAEL? Anyone?

That was all quite interesting.  I certainly don't agree with much of it since so much of it runs counter to the Scriptures.  However that aside, you failed to direct your attention to the obvious conflict and contradiction of the statement I referred to.  The statement doesn't make any sense.  And that having nothing to do with whether regeneration is conditional or not.

I would add, however, that you said,

Quote from: RB The word means to "turn" or "turn about."

That fits more appropriately for the meaning of repent not of convert. The word convert means to change, to modify, to adapt, to adjust.  For example, one converts US dollars into UK pounds or Italian Lira; one converts feet to meters; one converts pounds to kilograms; one converts from Protestantism to Catholicism or from Christianity to Judaism.  Biblically, one converts or is converted from a sinner to a saint.  While that is a single event, several things are involve, namely justification, regeneration, and sanctification.  This again having nothing to do with whether any of those are conditional.

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 05:32:08I would add, however, that you said, That fits more appropriately for the meaning of repent not of convert. The word convert means to change, to modify, to adapt, to adjust.  For example, one converts US dollars into UK pounds or Italian Lira; one converts feet to meters; one converts pounds to kilograms; one converts from Protestantism to Catholicism or from Christianity to Judaism.  Biblically, one converts or is converted from a sinner to a saint.  While that is a single event, several things are involve, namely justification, regeneration, and sanctification.  This again having nothing to do with whether any of those are conditional.

My brother whom I love, REPENTANCE IS CONVERSION and it is something that WE DO. Regeneration is God's work alone. We have NO part in being saved from sin and condemnation, none whatsoever.

Quote from: RB on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 05:44:53
My brother whom I love, REPENTANCE IS CONVERSION and it is something that WE DO. Regeneration is God's work alone. We have NO part in being saved from sin and condemnation, none whatsoever.

Repentance is NOT conversion.  Neither in English nor Greek.  Those are totally different.And while I agree that regeneration is God's work alone, that does not mean that His work alone is accomplished independent of the one that He is regenerating.  And failure to understand that is a major fault of your soteriology. 

First problem I see is most not knowing who makes up Israel

Most people assume the Jewish people are the sole remaining descendants of the ancient nation of Israel. This assumption, however, is incorrect.

Technically the Jews are descendants of two of the Israelite tribes: Judah and Benjamin , plus a considerable part of a third, the priestly tribe of Levi.

Unknown to most, 10 other tribes in ancient Israel were never called Jews. These northern tribes were historically distinct and politically separate from the Jews, their brothers to the south who formed the kingdom of Judah, from which the term Jew was derived.

The northern coalition of tribes, the kingdom or house of Israel, had already become an independent nation, separate from the house of Judah, by the time the word Jew first appears in the biblical narrative. In fact, the first time the term appears in the King James Version of the Bible, Israel was at war with the Jews (2 Kings 16:5-6).

Are all Israelites Jews? No. Jews—the citizens and descendants of the kingdom of Judah—are indeed Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. Since all 12 tribes, including Jews, are descendants of their father Israel (Jacob), we can apply the term Israelite to all of the tribes. The term Jew, however, is accurate only for the tribes that comprised the kingdom of Judah and for their descendants.

Second is not knowing the purpose of and what happens during the millennium .

No where in the O.T. did God predict "a millennium!"

The thousand years are literal only to the first resurrection in heaven reigning with the Lord.

And literally 1,000 years from AD70 or so to 1070 or so when the devil was locked in the abyss to prevent the world from receiving the gospel.