Christian Forums

QuoteHistory has shown that Millerism is a farce.

The same can be said of Christ's eschatology. http://everythingimportant.org/parousia

Quote from: Shubee on Sat Oct 06, 2018 - 15:23:38

The same can be said of Christ's eschatology. http://everythingimportant.org/parousia

Your response is a link to a "Shubertarian" message board?

You are about as stable as TLIG.

QuoteYour response is a link to a "Shubertarian" message board?

I thought I responded by quoting God's word.

QuoteYou are about as stable as TLIG.

Unlike you, I understand that you're off topic.

You had to bring up TLIG.

Quote from: Amo on Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 18:18:58
I never said anything about anyone forcing me right now to keep Sunday.  That must just be in your brainwashed mind.

Brainwashing is a terrible thing to do to another and I find it in poor taste to use against someone.  What happened in the past is past.  Man's inhumanity to man has existed since Adam.    Ignorance, too, has existed since Adam.  This is evident in the topic of blue laws, Sunday and Sabbath keeping.   The Sabbath was given to Israel and Israel only.  Trying to make it part of Christian duty is just as ignorant as imposing Sunday laws on humanity.

QuoteI only referred to the fact that all through history, Sunday keepers have passed laws trying to force everyone to observe their day.  Since you mentioned it though, there are certainly many blue laws in effect in many places today, which do not allow stores to open or certain activities to take place on Sundays until certain times, if at all on that day.  There are also countless blue laws on the books all over the place, which have never been removed and could be enforced at any time.

I am not saying that SDAs force the observance of Sabbath on others, but they will tell us that we won't be saved unless we observe it.  The only ground you have to stand on in doing so is from your prophet who has been proven to be wrong in many cases.

QuoteI cannot use the bible alone to address the issue of Sunday sacredness,

I cannot either.

Quotebecause the issue is found nowhere at all in the entirety of the scriptures.  Therefore it's reasoning, observation, and enforcement must be discussed extra biblically.

True

QuotePerhaps you can explain to me why Sunday keepers have appealed to civil legislation so very many times throughout history, and still do today, and yet claim they are not legalistic.  While at the same time claiming that all who would keep the fourth commandment by faith in the word of God are legalistic for doing so.

Please do not but all who worship our Lord on Sunday in one boat.   Most who worship on Sunday care less about legislating laws.   On the other hand there are communities of SDAs who have legislated laws that prohibit others from freedom on their holy day.  Both are wrong.

Sabbath was never in all of history given to any Gentile nation.  Only Israel was asked to observe it.  There is absolutely no law that would require Christians to observe any day.

QuoteSabbath was never in all of history given to any Gentile nation.  Only Israel was asked to observe it.  There is absolutely no law that would require Christians to observe any day.

You know your rhymes well. From your church bulletin? 

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Mon Oct 29, 2018 - 11:42:49
You know your rhymes well. From your church bulletin?

Hello Gerhard, too bad you cannot deny my statement and can only respond with cynical responses.

QuoteBeam:
Hello Gerhard, too bad you cannot deny my statement and can only respond with cynical responses.

I cannot deny statements that are just that, your 'statements' as empty as 'is absolutely no law that would require Christians to observe any day'.
Your 'statements' don't exist, chum. How can they exist if there is absolutely nothing that they 'state' or might state if what they are supposed to 'state' does not exist, 'absolutely is not'?

Therefore I must inform you about which you cannot inform me one bit, and that is, that you're talking, saying, writing, stating, nothing than YOUR IGNORANCE, your ignorance which is simply a single flagrant LIE, the lie not of true ignorance, but of cynical denial of reality and truth.

PS
Typical cynical denial from parsons and pastors of charismatic bent superiority, against whom Paul warned, "Let no man not holding to the Head [but] puffed up by his fleshly mind, who conceitedly meddles in what he knows nothing about, with his pretentious humility and angelic worship beguile you (with enticing words 2:4)."

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Mon Oct 29, 2018 - 16:27:38
I cannot deny statements that are just that, your 'statements' as empty as 'is absolutely no law that would require Christians to observe any day'.
Your 'statements' don't exist, chum. How can they exist if there is absolutely nothing that they 'state' or might state if what they are supposed to 'state' does not exist, 'absolutely is not'?

Therefore I must inform you about which you cannot inform me one bit, and that is, that you're talking, saying, writing, stating, nothing than YOUR IGNORANCE, your ignorance which is simply a single flagrant LIE, the lie not of true ignorance, but of cynical denial of reality and truth.

PS
Typical cynical denial of parsons and pastors of charismatic bent superiority, against whom Paul warned, "Let no man not holding to the Head [but] puffed up by his fleshly mind, who conceitedly meddles in what he knows nothing about, with his pretentious humility and angelic worship beguile you (with enticing words 2:4)."

How about some history to disprove my claim.  Name some laws of requirement either today or in Biblical history. 

Your sarcasms do not do well for your character.  Too bad.

QuoteHow about some history to disprove my claim.  Name some laws of requirement either today or in Biblical history. 
Your sarcasms do not do well for your character.  Too bad.

How about you stop your pretentious, false, cynical, laughable, stupid, attempts at denial?

All 'requirement' to 'disprove' your 'claim', would be for YOU - not for me who haven't got your problem - to forget about 'Biblical history' and for a change read the Bible with a teachable spirit.

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Mon Oct 29, 2018 - 17:08:29
How about you stop your pretentious, false, cynical, laughable, stupid, attempts at denial?

All 'requirement' to 'disprove' your 'claim', would be for YOU - not for me who haven't got your problem - to forget about 'Biblical history' and for a change read the Bible with a teachable spirit.

Anger and hurtful words really only hurts the one who spews it.  I can only feel sorry for you.  I hope and pray you have better days ahead.   I gave you every opportunity to prove me wrong al all you are able to do is attempting to intimidate me.  Not a nice way to live brother.

QuoteAnger and hurtful words really only hurts the one who spews it.  I can only feel sorry for you.  I hope and pray you have better days ahead.   I gave you every opportunity to prove me wrong al all you are able to do is attempting to intimidate me.  Not a nice way to live brother.

And what do you think your posts are? Anger, hurt and intimidation sugar coated  opportunist words which do not and from their very nature cannot prove anything positive and or real or true. Pray for yourself and don't feel sorry for me. And I am not your brother; are you able to swallow that? 

The following link and quotes were found at  - http://www.markofbeast.net/page3.htm
All emphasis mine.

https://ceoworld.biz/2018/01/29/a-modest-proposal-for-a-day-of-rest/

Quote.............................

Dr. Smadja's daring plan calls for an international day of rest (about 53 days per year) plus approximately 15 "holidays" where cumulatively there would be a cessation of all productive activity for approximately 70 days, or about 20% of the year.  These days of "non-activity" would help achieve the shared goal outlined in the Paris Climate Conference (COP21) of a 20% reduction of pollution globally by 2050, with the aim of keeping global warming below 2°C.

Smadja brings together social, economic, ecological and theological principles to address the serious issue of climate change.............................

This suggests that the time may be right for Dr. Smadja's proposal.  "This frantic race to go faster and faster makes us forget essential things, such as loving ourselves, others and also our earth," says Smadja, "the result is a global disaster, whose ecological impact is more and more obvious.  A Sabbath for ourselves, our industry and our environment is a corrective to these failures. It is a transcendence of spiritual over material will lead to a better sharing of wealth and a measurable improvement to the climate crisis that can bring together populists, progressives and conservatives toward a common cause."

God has already given us His Sabbath for these very purposes and more. Humanities international or corporate rejection of His Sabbath in favor of their own, will represent its final rejection of His authority in favor of their own. This will cause the final division and dilemma between those who worship God, and those who worship self. The national and international law itself creating the final division fully maturing the harvests of the earth which the Son Fo God will shortly thereafter reap.


Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The following link and article was also found at http://www.markofbeast.net/page3.htm 

Quotehttps://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/11/zeeland-churches-protest-about-rainbow-flag-and-sunday-shopping/

Zeeland churches protest about rainbow flag and Sunday shopping

Two thirds of the Protestant churches in the Zeeland municipality of Tholen have launched a campaign against the use of the rainbow flag to support gay rights and about shops opening on Sunday.

In total, 22 of the 33 churches on the two former islands which make up Tholen have taken out a page-size advert in the local paper, saying 'Christian norms and values are being shoved to one side.'

Last month Tholen's council agreed to raise the rainbow flag on the national Coming Out Day and to allow shops in some tourist areas to open seven days a week.

In the advert, the churches say they are 'very concerned' about the way Christian values are being moved to one side.
Support for homosexuality, they say, 'contravenes the Biblical order of creation' while allowing shops to open on Sunday goes against the fourth commandment which calls for a day of rest.

Tholen has a population of some 25,000. The biggest group on the town council is the fundamentalist Protestant SGP, which has six councillors.

Clever tactics employed above, mixing some truth with a lie. The bible does condemn homosexuality, but neither the fourth commandment or anything else anywhere in scripture addresses or promotes Sunday sacredness in any way shape or form. The legalistic Sunday keepers are mad at the homosexual community for ignoring God's word concerning their actions and agenda, while they and many others seek to impose their own chosen day of worship upon all through law, over the day God Himself established in His law. One persuasion of fallen humanity defying God's law, against another persuasion of fallen humanity defying God's law. No doubt they will eventually be able to compromise, but God's word and law do no such thing. God's law and authority stand immovable. Those who will not accept deliverance and salvation from its condemnation in Christ Jesus our Lord will suffer the consequences foretold.

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Tue Oct 30, 2018 - 02:34:46
And what do you think your posts are? Anger, hurt and intimidation sugar coated  opportunist words which do not and from their very nature cannot prove anything positive and or real or true. Pray for yourself and don't feel sorry for me. And I am not your brother; are you able to swallow that?

The old adage "sticks and stones may break my bone, but (your) words will never hurt me" is quite appropo here.   I am glad to be at your service as your whipping target.  I hope your negative venting helps you to have a good day.   I pray that life is treating you better than what you write.

More from the same link provided in the two previous posts. All emphasis mine.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-italy-sunday/new-italian-government-plans-to-curb-sunday-shopping-di-maio-idUKKCN1LP0HG

QuoteNew Italian government plans to curb Sunday shopping - Di Maio

ROME (Reuters) - The new Italian government will introduce a ban on Sunday shopping in large commercial centres before the end of the year as it seeks to defend family traditions, Deputy Prime Minister Luigi Di Maio said on Sunday.

In a bid to spur economic growth, the then Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti liberalised Sunday trading in 2012, despite pressure from the Roman Catholic Church and unions who said the country needed to keep its traditional day of rest.

"This liberalisation is in fact destroying Italian families," said Di Maio, who is head of the anti-establishment 5-Star Movement. "We need to start limiting opening and closing times again," he told reporters.

Earlier this year, Poland restricted Sunday shopping as the conservative government in Warsaw pushed ahead with what it said was a return to Roman Catholic values.

The Italian and Polish initiatives run against a slow liberalisation of Sunday shopping hours throughout Europe, where retailers face pressure from a boom in online shopping.

Small shopkeepers in Italy have long sought to overturn Monti's reform, saying their businesses face unfair competition from the big malls.

Di Maio said that larger stores would also have to close on national holidays.

https://www.ourladyoflourdes.info/sunday-rest/

QuoteWhat kind of work can I perform on a Sunday without violating the Sunday rest?

     The Church commands all Catholics to keep Sunday holy—not merely to attend Mass. Thus, the first precept of the Church reads: to keep the Sundays and Holy Days of obligation holy, by hearing Mass and resting from servile work. In another place She says to abstain from "those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God... or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (Code of Canon Law no. 1247). By servile work we mean, in general, that sort of work which requires more of the body than the mind. Traditionally, the motive (e.g., to make money or recreation) is not the main factor in determining whether a particular work is servile or not. Thus, in order to maintain objectivity, not only the nature of the work must be taken into account but also the way it is done and how it is commonly regarded in the tradition of the Church.

     The following are generally considered to be servile works: plowing, sowing, harvesting, etc.; sewing, lawn mowing, cobbling, tailoring, printing, masonry work, etc.; all work in mines and factories, etc. In most places custom justifies knitting, crocheting, etc.

     On the other hand, it is permitted to go walking, riding, driving, rowing, taking journeys or pilgrimages, even though these may be fatiguing. Literary and artistic works such as studying, teaching, drawing or painting, playing musical instruments, writing, delicate sculpturing, embroidering, taking photographs are all lawful on Sundays and Holy Days, even if done for remuneration.

     Two to three hours of servile work would be considered grave matter for sin. The following causes, however, would excuse from the observance of the law forbidding servile work. In general, any work is allowed that left undone would cause grave loss to oneself or another (i.e., "the ox is in the ditch"); an employer requires one to work on Sunday; works of charity to those in need; or those of necessity, public or private, such as all indispensable housework (dishes, cooking, etc.); any work in case of fire, flood, or other disasters. Let us strive to keep the Lord's DAY holy rather than an hour on Sunday.

Can I go shopping on a Sunday?

     No, we should not shop on Sundays. In general, all commercial activity should stop on Sundays if for no other reason than to give all employees a chance to worship God and rest on the Lord's Day as He commands. Thus, commercial stores should be closed and they actually were for many years. Only in the last several decades have they been allowed to remain open for business on Sundays. An exception to the rule is often made to businesses that supply necessary items like food and gasoline. Thus, such businesses as convenience stores, restaurants, and gas stations are allowed to be open on Sundays. Let us strive not to defer to a festival what should have been taken care of during the week, thereby distracting our attention from things of God.

http://www.catholicsun.org/2012/06/06/sundays-must-be-a-day-of-rest-dedicated-to-god-family-pope-says/

QuoteSundays must be a day of rest dedicated to God, family, pope says

VATICAN CITY (CNS) — The demands of work can't bully people out of needed time off, Pope Benedict XVI said.

Sunday must be a day of rest for everyone, so people can be free to be with their families and with God, the pope said.

"By defending Sunday, one defends human freedom," he said during his weekly general audience in St. Peter's Square June 6............................

The pope said he wanted to come to the defense of free time, which is "threatened by a kind 'bullying' by the demands of work."

"Sunday is the day of the Lord and of man, a day which everyone must be able to be free — free for the family and free for God."

Family, work, rest and celebration are gifts from God and important aspects of human life that must find a "harmonious balance" in order to build a more humane world, he said.

He said the World Meeting of Families was a way to send a message to the whole world that "it is possible and joyful, even if it takes work, to live love faithfully forever and be open to life" and that it's also possible for the whole family to take part in the mission of the church and help create a better world.

The bible says nowhere that Sunday is the day of the Lord, these are the words of the Pope, not God or scripture. The Pope is correct though in testifying that Sunday is the day of man. It is a man made day which can neither be made holy by man, or kept holy by man. Only God can make anything holy. God's true Sabbath represents this truth, that God alone can make anything holy, a day, or man. Sunday sacredness is humanities defiance against this truth in claiming to do just that with the day of the sun. Go to, set up the abomination of desolation in the place of God's holy Sabbath. So be it, come Lord Jesus.

QuoteAmo:
Go to, set up the abomination of desolation in the place of God's holy Sabbath.

Dear Amo, as discussed before between the two of us, it is my duty to tell you that the Sabbath Seventh day Adventists regard holy is identically the one which Jews claim that they keep holy in memory of their redemption from Egypt ON IT. But the Jews' resurrection as it were from the dead through the Red Sea do not have the POWER Jesus Christ's Resurrection has for Christians.

SDAs do not know the Power of his Resurrection unto the "Fellowship in his Suffering" of "The Body of Christ's Own". "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain; ye are yet in your sins. ... But now, being raised from the dead, is Christ become the Firstfruits" of "Sabbaths' Feast of Christ" Assemblies and "Cornerstone" of "The Household of God".
Rose Christ not "on the Sabbath", the Sabbath would be for True Believers as much worth as the unbelieving Jews' Sabbath for them, NOTHING; in fact, a mill-stone around their neck!

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Fri Dec 21, 2018 - 15:00:22
Dear Amo, as discussed before between the two of us, it is my duty to tell you that the Sabbath Seventh day Adventists regard holy is identically the one which Jews claim that they keep holy in memory of their redemption from Egypt ON IT. But the Jews' resurrection as it were from the dead through the Red Sea do not have the POWER Jesus Christ's Resurrection has for Christians.

SDAs do not know the Power of his Resurrection unto the "Fellowship in his Suffering" of "The Body of Christ's Own". "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain; ye are yet in your sins. ... But now, being raised from the dead, is Christ become the Firstfruits" of "Sabbaths' Feast of Christ" Assemblies and "Cornerstone" of "The Household of God".
Rose Christ not "on the Sabbath", the Sabbath would be for True Believers as much worth as the unbelieving Jews' Sabbath for them, NOTHING; in fact, a mill-stone around their neck!

Why do so many tread where no man should go. There are millions of SDA's brother, and your have no idea where each of them stands in relation to the power of the resurrection. God Himself is judging all regarding the same in Christ Jesus our Lord. Do not assume the position of anti-christ in taking upon yourself prerogatives which belong only to God. Such is a very dangerous position to occupy. The power of the resurrection is the power of creation, creating new creatures in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Sabbath rest is in contemplation and commemoration of the same. First comes the creation, then the Sabbath rest. The first is concerning existence, the latter concerning proper relationship and development of that existence. The two go hand in hand, but they are not the same.

The Sabbath is not the creation, it is an integral part of the contemplation, commemoration, celebration, development, and nurturing of the same. Creation comes first, then the Sabbath rest.

http://thechurchinmalta.org/en/posts/11507/everyones-right-for-a-day-of-rest-on-sundayil-hadd-dritt-ta%25e2%2580%2599-mistrieh-ghal-kulhadd

The following article may be viewed at the above link. All bold and underlined emphasis in the following is mine.

Quote
EVERYONE'S RIGHT FOR A DAY OF REST ON SUNDAY

Introduction

Every employee is entitled to a day of rest, and this right is safeguarded by means of the appropriate legislation which prescribes employees' working conditions. In Malta, it is also the norm that Sunday is reserved as a day of rest, and this norm was affirmed during the British rule.  The British statute, based upon Canon and Roman Laws, forbade work and commercial activities on Sundays. These laws regulating Sundays (prohibiting work and commerce on Sunday) can be traced back to the time of Emperor Constantine (321), when only certain humanitarian work was exempted. In this respect, there has always been an exception with regard to philantropic activities whose real purpose is not commercial but rather an act of solidarity with those who are in need.

It is worth mentioning the argument brought forward by 'The Trades and Labour Congress' in 1950 which states that 'It is the opinion of the congress that it is not a necessity to work on Sundays. It is a right and not a privilege for an employee to be free from work on a Sunday, which is intended for mankind. Hence we strive and maintain that Sunday should remain a day which is free from work. On reflection, it would transpire that if six persons work seven days, they would be performing the work of seven persons who work for six days. This means that six persons working on Sunday would be jeopardizing the livelihood of the seventh person.  This is not even viable to the employer since the seventh day, being a Sunday would entail a higher rate of pay. Furthermore fatigue would reduce efficiency of the employee.

In its convention held in 1921, the World Organization for work, states that every employee must avail himself of 24 consecutive hours of rest weekly and where possible this is awarded to all employees concurrently in accordance with the customs and traditions of the workers.

Sunday is also a Social Day

Sunday must be a day of rest and not another ordinary day of work.  Man needs to take a break in order to benefit from a healthy lifestyle and this should be a crucial element of his well-being. During his time of rest, man ought to be able to reflect upon his life, setting aside the problems and stresses related to his work.  When a person is accustomed to rest, then he is able to perceive better the demands of his work, He becomes more aware of who he is and he no longer feels that he must exercise his control over everything. He feels better and more relaxed and ready to tackle another week of other work.

The Day of the Lord in the Teaching of the Church

Today more than ever, due to our busy lifestyle we are overlooking the vital need to rest, and the Church continuously reminds us of this necessity. Catholic Social teaching states that rest is a right (Gaudium et Spes).  God rested on the seventh day (Gen. 2.2) after working for six days and so even mankind who was created in the image of God is entitled to enjoy a well-deserved rest, have free time to take care of his family, and to participate in cultural, social and religious activities (Gaudium et Spes). This was the main reason behind choosing Sunday as a day of rest (Catechism of the Church)

On Sundays and other holy days, Christians are to refrain from performing work or other similar activities that hinder them from giving due praise to God on such days, or which may restrain them from having compassion for the less fortunate, as well as from relieving both their mind and body. (Catechism of the Church)

We ought to keep Sunday holy by performing good deeds and also by dedicating time to our family and relatives, in particular the sick and elderly. Sunday is a useful day for reflection, study, and silent meditation.. The Catechism also reminds us that on this day we must not forget our brethren who share the same needs and rights as us, but who cannot observe the Sunday rest due to poverty and misery.

Nowadays we tend to neglect our need for spiritual renewal, and while on Sunday importance must be accorded to the family and the poor, nonetheless we need to allocate some time to meet God in silence.

The public authorities are duty bound to safeguard the citizens' right to enjoy days of repose and to offer praise to God even at the expense of any economic activity.  This is specially relevant where employers are concerned. (Rerum Novarum)

In line with their religious beliefs and for the common good, Christians must strive so that Sundays and other holy days practised by the Church be acknowledged as public holidays.  "Christians must lead by example through their prayers and evident joy during these days, and defend their traditions by contributing towards the creation of a spiritual society (Catechism of the Church)  The Catechism of the Church urges Christians to work so that our society may retain both religious and spiritual beliefs.

Sunday is a day of rest but due to social needs, there remain certain sectors with the labour market such as health, tourism, public transport and security, where workers have to perform work also on Sundays.

In this regard the Catechism of the Church number 2187 states that "Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort.  Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing Sunday, the Day of the Lord's.  Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees."

Everyone is in Need of Rest

Health does not only imply physical health but as explained by the commission for mental health and well being, it goes hand in hand with mental health. The World Health Organization defines mental health as: "a state of sound living whereby one recognises one's own capabilities, is able to cope with the stress encountered in the daily life, is able to work and donate his own contribution to society'. Recent studies conducted by the Director General of Health and Consumers state that mental health is affected by policies that concern family life, mental health also includes the capablilty to participate in social life, and generates the ability for one to grow spiritually. This study fits in well with the argument that Sunday as a day which is free from work is vital for the overall health of workers.

Sunday is the day of the family.  More than any other day, it is so when one takes into account that schools and governement departments are closed on Sundays, enabling the family to be more united.  According to the Directives of the European Council Article 10 (22nd June 1994) Sunday is a day of rest  for both children and youth.  But if the father's day of rest on a Monday, and that of the mother falls on a Wednesday, how can the family be united when at the same time it is stated that Sunday should be a day of rest for children.  Sunday is a social day for the worker a day in which he can participate in social, cultural, sports activities.  If Europe, and with particular reference to our country, desires to strengthen social life, it must observe and protect Sunday.

Nowadays, Europe should act as the social model, leading by example and demonstrating to all other States the way in which Sunday should be respected. Its own officials and those responsible for decision making, together with all other institutions within the European Union do not work on Sunday and it is not forseen that they will do so in the near future. This practice should be acknowledged by all of Europe and should serve as an example to all the other European Member States to retain this European social model and observe Sunday as a day of rest.

For most Europeans, not only Christians, Sunday serves as an opportunity to pause and reflect on fundamental questions of life: Who am I?  Where am I heading?  What are my goals?  Man is in need of time which cannot be calculated or defined or expressed in economic terms.

Eurofound has conducted a study on both those who work and those do not work on Sunday, and found that the former are more prone to avail themselves of sick leave and to absent themselves from work.

Sunday is precious both for Europe and Malta alike and we all are obliged to recognise this religious and cultural tradition that was passed on from our ancestors. We must endeavour to nurture it both for the good of the employee and also for the beneifit the country's economy.

I cannot fathom why so many think the SDA claim that Sunday sacredness will be established by law on a global or near global scale is untenable. The article quoted above summarizes the facts involved throughout history very well, which many of this posts on this thread have and do corroborate and expand upon. Sunday sacredness has been forced upon nation after nation throughout history since Constantine. His laws pertaining to the same and others in connection with it were crucial elements of the establishment of the religio-political entity which is the Roman Catholic Church. That entity has over a billion members imbedded by the millions in nations all over this earth, and its leaders entertain ambassadors from virtually all nations of the earth. It's adherents are commanded by their leaders to help legally establish Sunday rest laws in their perspective nations. Beyond this though, their leaders call upon all "Christians" to do the same. They have had great success throughout history regarding this issue, are having success today with it in various nations, and as a globalist institution most obviously intend a global application of the same in the near future or whenever possible. These are the plain and simple facts.

So why do so many act like it is silly to consider that such could ever transpire? Go figure.

People come to these boards all the time attacking SDA's for believing those who worship God should still keep His Sabbath as commanded by Him, by faith in His word. Yet they apparently have no problem with the church of Rome and other "Christians" believing that the rest commanded by God concerning the seventh day has now been transferred to the first day by the power and authority of the former, and should be forced upon all by human legislation. What a twisted condition. Those who willfully reject the truth, cannot any longer see it, when it is right in front of their faces. So be it, as God's word has prophesied.

2 These 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Soon, God will allow for strong delusion in support of the Sunday sacredness lie. This issue is not going anywhere. It will only grow more intense as time continues. All nations will become drunk with the wine of Babylon.

I already posted the below link and quote on another thread, but it certainly belongs on this thread as well if not more so.

http://www.sundaylaw.net/books/other/standish/liberty/litb19.htm

The History of Sunday Legislation

PERHAPS the most persistent form of religious coercion and the amalgamation of church and state, is seen in the history of the development of Sunday legislation. We are indebted largely to material provided by Doctor A. H. Lewis, Critical History of Sunday Legislation from 321 to 1888, New York, D. Appleton & Company, 1888, as summarized in William Blakely, American State Papers Bearing on Sunday Legislation, 1891.

The first Sunday legislation to be introduced into the Christian Church was a product of the pagan conception, fully developed by the Romans, which made religion a department of the state. This enactment was diametrically opposed to the principles of true Christianity as enunciated in the New Testament by Christ and the Apostles. Such a situation could never have pertained in a pure and faithful church. Indeed, it did not find favor in most of the Christian church until Christianity had been deeply corrupted through the influence of gnosticism and other pagan errors. While it is proclaimed that the Emperor Constantine had accepted Christianity, the truth of which is doubted by many, at least there is no question that his thinking was still that of the pagan.

Constantine issued the first Sunday legislation by virtue of his power as Pontifex Maximus—the Supreme Pontiff (see chapter 11 entitled "The Development of Christian Persecution"). The concept of Pontifex Maximus can be traced back to ancient Babylon, but in Roman times it has its origin during the reign of Caesar Augustus from 23 b.c. to a.d. 14. This emperor was the Caesar of the incarnation of Jesus. During his long reign, he strengthened very greatly the power of the Roman Empire, and maintained a high level of peace. The Senate, in its desire to honor him, bestowed upon him the title of Pontifex Maximus. Thereafter, each Caesar and emperor of Rome, no matter how strong or weak his reign, took the title, until the reign of Emperor Justinian in the sixth century.

In the dying embers of the Roman Empire, Emperor Justinian invested the title of Pontifex Maximus upon the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), John II in 533. However, it was not until the overthrow of the Ostrogoths, three popes later, that Pope Vigilius in 538 was able to exercise the civil power invested in the title Pontifex Maximus. Thus Vigilius became the first pope to hold not only ecclesiastical power but also to exercise political power. Thus while Constantine inaugurated state-church union in the Christian world, the Bishop of Rome was able to reverse this order and establish church-state authority, with the emphasis upon the power of the church authority dominant over the state, rather than the state authority dominant over the church. Now returning to Constantine's Sunday Law, the pagan nature of the law is clearly noted in the fact that Constantine placed no Christian appellation upon the worship on the first day of the week, rather referring it to the "venerable day of the sun."

Let all judges and all city people and all tradesmen rest upon the venerable day of the sun. But let those dwelling in the country freely and with full liberty attend to the culture of their field; since it frequently happens that no other day is so fit for the sowing of grain or the planting of vines; hence, the favorable time should not be allowed to pass, lest the provisions of heaven be lost. Quoted in Blakely, p. 269

This was a difficult law for Christians, most of whom at that time were still seventh-day Sabbath keepers. It was difficult because Constantine had ended the terrible decade of persecution of Christians that had begun under Emperor Diocletian in the year 303. The Christians were greatly indebted to Constantine for their liberty, and when he confessed to have embraced Christianity their joys were even greater. Now they were in a particularly difficult situation. Constantine had one goal, and that was to unite the empire that was now split strongly between pagans and Christians. He believed that a unified day of worship would go a long way toward reducing the tension between pagans and Christians.

Thus it was that many Christians, in order to honor the emperor and hopefully not to violate their conscience as Sabbath- keepers, entered into the practice of keeping holy two days of the week, the seventh and the first. Commonly, one day was chosen as a feast day and the other one as a fast day. But this practice was one of compromise. It is a principle of faith that when a false doctrine is given equal validity with one that is true, inevitably it is the error which prevails, for truth can never abide with error, while error happily associates with truth, for it makes the error all the more deceptive. Thus it was predictable that the Sunday worship of paganism would eventually supplant Sabbath keeping enjoined by Scripture. History amply testifies to this result, a result which persists to our day. Soon Rome became the seat of those who advocated Sunday worship, proposing that it be the commemoration of the resurrection of Jesus. However, much of the rest of the western world advocated the seventh-day Sabbath as the primary day of worship, honoring the Creation of God as established in the words of Scripture. After the power of secular authority passed from the Roman Empire to Papal Rome there was a rapid increase in the enforcement of Sunday sacredness, to the disregard of Sabbath sacredness.

During the fourth to the sixth century, not only was the observance of Sunday, the pagan day of worship, incorporated into Christianity, but many other holidays, mostly pagan festivals, were "sanctified" with new names slightly modified and claiming to be Christian celebrations. Thus, in the seventh century, Spanish Christians accepted Sunday sacredness, as did also the English Christians except for a small minority who still believed in the biblical Sabbath. It was not until the twelfth century that the Welsh and the Scots were forced into Sunday observance.

In the thirteenth century, Marco Polo recorded Sabbath keeping among the large group of Chinese Christians in the western regions of China. The Syrian Christians of India upheld Sabbath-keeping until the sixteenth century Portuguese Inquisition stamped it out. The Christians of Ethiopia continued their Sabbath-keeping into the seventeenth century. (B. G. Wilkinson, Truth Triumphant, Pacific Press, 1944)

During the Middle Ages, Sunday legislation took on a more judaistic direction, claiming that, with analogy to the Jewish legislation in biblical times, civil authorities had the right to legislate in religious matters after the manner of the Jewish Theocracy. Thus, severe penalties were imposed on those who were not regular attenders at church on Sunday, including, in some circumstances, the death penalty.

The advent of the Reformation brought little change in civil legislation concerning Sunday sacredness and worship. For example, the English Reformation introduced a new theory and developed a distinct type of legislation. It was during this period that for the first time, the doctrine of the transfer of the fourth commandment to the first day of the week led consequently to legislation consistent with this theory. Thus, extensive theological treatises were written that were consistent with civil enactments.

The Sunday laws during the Colonial days in North America are the direct outgrowth of the Puritan legislation, notably of those laws that arose during the time of the Commonwealth in England under Oliver Cromwell. Thus, colonies such as Massachusetts and Virginia enforced very severe penalties upon those who failed to worship regularly in church on Sundays. After the Declaration of Independence and the establishment of the new nation of the United States, the laws of colonial times were greatly modified. The whole tendency has been to set forth laws of a totally different character through the decisions of the courts.

In the Sunday law legislation of the Roman Empire, the religious element were wholly subordinate to that of the civil power. In the Middle Ages, and also under Cromwell as Lord Protector of England (1649–1658), and during the colonial period of American history, the church was supreme. After the amendments to the United States Constitution of the Bill of Rights in 1791, any form of Sunday law began to be challenged. Thus increasingly, claims were made that Sunday legislation is not based on religious grounds. Such argumentation was devised to maintain Sunday legislation by the power of the State without appearing to violate the First Amendment of the American Constitution. Some legislators and jurists were willing to accept such fragile arguments. However, other, more perceptive legislators and jurists strongly opposed such interpretations and recognized that any attempt to legislate a rest day for the first day of the week was indeed an effort to uphold a religious institution, something which was invalid in law based upon the Bill of Rights.

These claims for Sunday rest, based upon so-called secular reasoning, are clearly contradicted by the fact that for centuries every Sunday law sprang from a religious sentiment. Under Constantine's legislation, the day was to be "venerated" as a religious duty owed to the god of the sun. As the resurrection festival concept was gradually combined with the pagan practice, religious regard for the day was also demanded in honor of Christ's resurrection. In the Middle Ages, sacredness was claimed for Sunday because the Sabbath had been sacred under the legislation of the Jewish Theocracy. Sunday was held supremely sacred by the Puritans under the plea that the obligations imposed by the fourth commandment were transferred from the seventh-day Sabbath to the first-day, though no scriptural authority was found to sustain the change.

All these Sunday statutes enacted in the United States prohibited "worldly labor," and permitted only works of necessity and mercy on Sundays. There can be no valid meaning except as they are based upon religious foundations. Surely there can be no "worldly business" unless it is stated in contrast with religious obligation. Thus every Sunday law that has been enacted within the United States, and for that matter other countries of the world, is based upon the idea that it is wrong to do on Sunday the things prohibited in the fourth commandment. It must be acknowledged, then, that the theories men invent for the observance of Sunday on non-religious grounds have no logical value, unless it is understood that there is a covert religious motivation.

To claim that the present Sunday laws do not designate a day as a religious institution, is to deny every fact in the history relevant to such legislation. Any claim otherwise is surely a shallow subterfuge. If this were not so, advocates of a rest day would not focus exclusively upon Sunday. They might decide to offer Friday, the sacred day of the Muslims, as their proposed rest day. Or indeed they might choose a day that is sacred to no religion, such as Tuesday or Wednesday, to provide respite from labor in the middle of the week.

Religious observance legislation could not spring from Apostolic Christianity. Every element of New Testament Christianity forbade interference by the state in personal religious matters. Thus all basis for legislating religious practice has its roots in pagan practice. This is equally true for the observance of other religious days such as Christmas and Easter. We have cited the pagan character of the first Sunday legislation because in that legislation, Sunday is mentioned only by its pagan name, "the venerable day of the sun."

In that legislation enacted by Constantine, there is no inference that the legislation has anything whatsoever to do with Christianity. There is no trace of the resurrection idea in the legislation. No reference is made to the fourth commandment of the Decalogue nor anything connected with it. The law was made for all the empire. It applied to every subject alike, Christian or pagan or nonbeliever.

The pagan mentality of Constantine can be deduced from the fact that on the day following the publication of the edict concerning Sunday observance, another edict was issued ordering that the haruspices (soothsayers who especially use the entrails of slain victims to deduce the will of the gods) be consulted in cases of public calamity. Surely this practice demonstrates the thoroughly pagan mentality of Constantine and the attitude the emperor still retained, together with the influences which controlled him.

According to Doctor Lewis, all Sunday legislation is the product of pagan Rome. The Saxon laws were the product of the Middle Age legislation of the "Holy Roman Empire." The English laws are an expansion of the Saxon, and the American are a transcript of the English laws. (As quoted in Blakely, p. 270)

Lewis correctly points out that the Sunday law issued under King Charles II of England in 1676 was the law of the American colonies up to the time of the Revolution, and so became the basis of the American Sunday laws. Charles II's law forbade any work whatsoever by tradesmen, laborers, and business men on the "Lord's Day" (Sunday). The penalty for those over the age of fourteen breaching the law was a fine of five shillings. The law also provided for the confiscation of any goods that a merchant was offering for sale on Sunday. Anyone who could not meet the financial penalties was to be set in public stocks for the space of two hours.

Let it be understood, notwithstanding the enactment of the First Amendment to the American Constitution, the concept of Sunday law and the effort to regard Sunday sacredness was so ingrained in the history of the American people that it seemed almost impossible for them to understand that such legislation should cease to be enacted or to be enforced in the new nation. Thus it was that the nineteenth century became a battleground for and against Sunday legislation.

Do you actually believe anyone is reading all your slanted cut and paste posts?

Quote from: beam on Thu Feb 21, 2019 - 22:41:33
Do you actually believe anyone is reading all your slanted cut and paste posts?

Far too much wind for most people here 

Quote from: beam on Thu Feb 21, 2019 - 22:41:33
Do you actually believe anyone is reading all your slanted cut and paste posts?

The information is there for any interested, making any be interested enough to read it is not my responsibility. Providing  truth to those who may not know is the responsibility of all who know truth. Making others listen to, read, and or have any interest in it, is not. If the info provided is slanted, much of that slant would of course come from those quoted, not the one supplying the quotes. Then there is of course the issue of the posted 21927 views, which may indicate of course that some people do view the info supplied.

Certain facts are of course not slants. Sunday laws have been issued and put in place by "Christians" since the time of Constantine, they exist and are still supported by millions today, and they reveal that the accusations against Sabbath keepers as legalists are as easily attributed to Sunday keepers as well. To the contrary, even more so, since they call for civil legislation to force their day upon all. Sabbath keepers call all to observance of the same by faith in God's word alone. I and many others would immediately attack the proposition of any Sabbath keeper resorting to civil legislation regarding he same. A view apparently not shared by the many Sunday keepers crying legalism among Sabbath keepers, including yourself it would seem. Please do correct me if I am wrong and express your views against legislated "Christianity" through Sunday legislation.

Hi Amo, First of all, you need to be able to verify that SDAs around the World are actually worshipping on the Sabbath given at Sinai.   The same goes for those you call Sunday keepers.  There is no such thing as a Sunday keeper.  Where in scripture is there any rules for keeping Sunday?  Likewise where in the New Covenant are there any rules for keeping the Sabbath which you cannot prove is the actual day set aside for only Israel?

Quote from: beam on Sat Feb 23, 2019 - 07:56:31
Hi Amo, First of all, you need to be able to verify that SDAs around the World are actually worshipping on the Sabbath given at Sinai.   The same goes for those you call Sunday keepers.  There is no such thing as a Sunday keeper.  Where in scripture is there any rules for keeping Sunday?  Likewise where in the New Covenant are there any rules for keeping the Sabbath which you cannot prove is the actual day set aside for only Israel?

I don't need to do anything for you beam. You can deny God's sabbath established by scripture, and the man made Sunday rest laws that have existed for many centuries now if you wish. The scriptures and the historical facts are there, do what you will with them. I'll only waste so much time debating someone consistently denying that which has been placed right in front of their face.

https://www.wahpetondailynews.com/news_monitor/house-passes-repealing-blue-law/article_69da35a6-1e59-11e9-88dd-03814059bdfd.html

QuoteHouse passes repealing blue law
Ertelt opposes legislation to allow Sunday morning shopping — lawmakers are not above 'God's law'
by JOHN HAGEMAN Forum News Service Jan 22, 2019

BISMARCK — A renewed effort to repeal North Dakota's ban on Sunday morning shopping cleared its first major hurdle Thursday, Jan. 17, as House lawmakers agreed to ditch what some called an outdated and unfair law.......................................................

Several opponents leaned heavily on religious arguments Thursday. Rep. Sebastian Ertelt, R-Lisbon, said laws passed by the state Legislature are not above "God's law," which he said policy makers already recognize by prohibiting "wholesale murder."

Rep. Kathy Skroch, R-Lidgerwood, argued people need time for rest and relaxation and blamed the Legislature for "undermining" Sunday restrictions.

"For the good of our families and our state, we must not strip the last remnants of the North Dakota Sunday closing laws," she said.

Christopher Dodson, executive director of the North Dakota Catholic Conference, said in a statement that the bill's passage "reflects the growing tendency in our culture to put convenience and profit over families and workers" and called on the Senate to reject the bill...................................................

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20190205/pennsylvania-senate-committee-passes-sunday-hunting-ban-repeal

QuotePennsylvania: Senate Committee Passes Sunday Hunting Ban Repeal

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 2019

Today, the Senate Game and Fisheries Committee passed pro-hunting legislation, Senate Bill 147, by an 8 to 3 vote.  SB 147 now heads to the Senate floor for further consideration.  Please contact your state Senator and strongly urge them to SUPPORT Senate Bill 147 when it comes up for a vote.

Senate Bill 147, sponsored by Senator Daniel Laughlin, would expand hunting opportunities for Pennsylvania hunters by eliminating the prohibition against hunting on Sundays. Prohibitions on Sunday hunting are old blue laws left on the books in just a few states.  They deny hunters access one day per week despite the fact that each year, hunters pump millions of dollars into habitat restoration and conservation through Pittman-Robertson funds................................

https://nypost.com/2018/07/16/small-town-tosses-footloose-law-barring-dancing-on-sundays/

QuoteSmall town tosses 'Footloose' law barring dancing on Sundays
By Associated Press July 16, 2018

FORT SMITH, Ark. — Officials in a western Arkansas city say residents can finally kick off their Sunday shoes.

Fort Smith city directors recently repealed a 1953 ordinance that essentially outlawed public dancing on Sundays. Locals who knew about the law called it the "Footloose" ordinance, nicknamed for the 1984 movie starring Kevin Bacon about a town that banned dancing and rock music.

City Director Andre Good introduced the repeal after a resident told him about the antiquated law, which barred the operation of public dance halls or any place with dancing on Sundays. The ordinance came amid a series of blue laws established in Arkansas that banned all sales and most labor on Sundays, according to the Encyclopedia of Arkansas History and Culture. Later laws also banned Sunday activities that included hunting and baseball..........................

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/passing-brunch-bills-to-repeal-blue-laws-19018/

QuoteFebruary 20, 2017
Passing "Brunch Bills" to Repeal Blue Laws

...

A historical perspective

Over the years, North Carolina and its counties, cities, and town have passed and repealed a variety of statutes, regulations, and ordinances restricting Sunday activities. These "blue laws" were intended to "provide a day of rest and to prevent physical and moral debasement from uninterrupted labor," as explained by a federal appeals court as recently as 2000.[3]  While almost all remaining blue laws govern alcohol sales, blue laws have historically restricted other menu options. For example, in Asheville in the late 1880s, a blue law provided that "one could not order ice cream on Sunday without first taking a lunch and that lunch could not consist of cake," and the police enforced the law against the Sunday ice-cream eaters through raids of candy shops.[4] However, an enterprising restauranteur began to serve ham sandwiches with his scoops, which allowed his Sunday lunch crowd to enjoy law-abiding ice cream. City-wide blue laws were repealed in Asheville by the city council in 1970.

...

Challenging blue laws in North Carolina

Blue laws have also seen unsuccessful judicial challenges. North Carolina courts have held that regulation by the State of the public peace, safety, welfare, and morals through Sunday ordinances is constitutional and legitimate, so long as the law does not arbitrarily and unreasonably discriminate against a particular class of businesses or establishments.[10] When a particular class of individuals or entities is regulated, the United States and North Carolina Constitutions require that the classification have a reasonable basis and that the law or regulation apply uniformly across all members of the class.[11] The right to sell alcohol is based upon a validly-issued permit, and does not exist as a constitutional right or a property right.[12] The delegation of the power to enact blue laws to counties and municipalities has also been upheld.[13] Over decades of challenges, North Carolina courts have supported Sunday blue laws as generally valid, which is very unlikely to change in the near future.

...

https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/repeal-law-that-bans-sunday-new-car-sales-no-thanks-car-dealers-say/

QuoteRepeal law that bans Sunday new-car sales? No thanks, car dealers say

By RICHARD N. VELOTTA LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
February 14, 2015 - 6:04 pm

The economy is rolling and people have shown a willingness to spend money.

Isn't it about time to repeal that crazy law that prohibits car dealerships from selling new vehicles on Sundays?
No, thank you, say representatives of the car-dealing industry.

If a debate were conducted on the topic, you'd probably find more dealers on the side of keeping the prohibition than fighting to let people kick the tires and sign the paperwork on a new car on Sundays.

Sunday closure ordinances are known as "blue laws," but car dealers are anything but blue about not being allowed to be open.

In a state spoiled by the availability of 24/7 retail, a consumer can't take a dealership test drive on the most appropriate day to take a Sunday drive.

And most dealers are just fine with that.

"We're pretty happy with the way things are," said Wayne Frediani, executive director of the Sparks-based Nevada Franchised Auto Dealers Association. "Long ago, our membership supported the idea that we close on Sundays. I think everybody has gotten used to it to the point that now they like it. I don't see that changing anytime soon."
The county ordinance that prohibits Sunday sales clearly differentiates the sale of new and used cars. It also prescribes a fine or jail time for violating it.

"Motor vehicle dealers licensed pursuant to NRS 482.078 ('New Vehicle Dealer') that are engaged in the sale of new cars or trucks, or both new and used cars or trucks (but only if the new and used vehicles are located at the same business address), shall not be open for business on Sundays," the ordinance says.

"Any violation of the provisions of this chapter is a misdemeanor and may result in a fine not exceeding $1,000, or result in imprisonment in the county jail for a period not to exceed six months, or both such fine and imprisonment. A separate offense shall be deemed committed on each day during or on which a violation occurs or continues."

separating church and business

When Clark County commissioners debated the ordinance in 2000, the arguments fell along the lines of whether it should be the government's responsibility to mandate the closure of a private business.

The dealerships already were pretty much in agreement that they wanted to be closed Sundays. Making the policy a law assured that what began as a handshake agreement couldn't be broken by a new entrant to the market in the future.

It was sold as a plus for neighborhoods near the dealerships because motorists on test drives wouldn't be cruising residential streets when people were home on Sundays.

But longtime dealership executives say the primary reason for wanting to keep dealerships closed on Sundays was so that business obligations wouldn't conflict with Sunday church activities.................................................

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 23, 2019 - 09:48:11
I don't need to do anything for you beam. You can deny God's sabbath established by scripture, and the man made Sunday rest laws that have existed for many centuries now if you wish. The scriptures and the historical facts are there, do what you will with them. I'll only waste so much time debating someone consistently denying that which has been placed right in front of their face.

Oh, but if I were seeking knowledge about the Sabbath because I was interested in observing it and asked you those questions would you deny me.  How many lurkers do you suppose read our posts?   How many of them are turned off because you refuse to answer the questions we present?   Think about it Amo.

I can tell that you are no dummy.  You know that when the International Date Line was established to where it is now it threw the calendar off.  Instead of the week stating at Sinai, it then began at a point in the Pacific Ocean making the weekly Sabbath start in New Zealand.

By the way, I do recognize that Governments are and have been corrupt.  The same goes for churches.  Sunday laws were and are an abomination.  Anything that takes away our freedoms to worship as we deem right should not ever take place.  I will fight for our freedom.  Do SDAs feel the same way?   Will you engage in battle to keep America free from Sunday laws or any other oppression that others might want to impose?  God's special people at His command did.

QuoteOh, but if I were seeking knowledge about the Sabbath because I was interested in observing it and asked you those questions would you deny me.  How many lurkers do you suppose read our posts?   How many of them are turned off because you refuse to answer the questions we present?   Think about it Amo.

Any lurkers seeking truth, would dig deep enough to see that I have answered your questions many times over on these boards. As already stated, you have brought nothing to to them, save perhaps a personal tweak or two.