Christian Forums

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Wed Dec 26, 2018 - 16:40:00
Happy to.

For starters, we reject Creedal Christianity, meaning we do not hold as authoritative such documents as the Nicean Creed. This naturally leads to some disagreements over issues like the nature of God. Creedal Christians believe in the Trinity, (Father Son and Holy Ghost are one due to them being of one substance) whereas Latter-day Saints believe their oneness is in the perfect unity between each member of the Godhead.


We believe in performing vicarious ordinances on behalf of our deceased ancestors, such as baptism for the dead

We believe in Eternal Progression, in other words, God's ultimate work and glory is to help us become like Him.

We believe in the Pre-Mortal existence

We believe Marriage is essential for exaltation

Father Son and Holy Ghost are one due to them being of one substance

Please list any denomination(s) that actually believes this.

We believe in performing vicarious ordinances on behalf of our deceased ancestors, such as baptism for the dead

Please explain the Mormon view of why Baptism is necessary, who performs a baptism, who receives a baptism and how a baptism is performed?

We believe in Eternal Progression, in other words, God's ultimate work and glory is to help us become like Him.

Please explain if this means that once you become like Him you will be equal to Him. In other words... actual Gods yourselves.

The bible tells us this is not unlike Satan .... "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation ... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'" Isaiah 14:12-15.

Please clarify if your ultimate goal is to be like Lucifer? That would certainly explain the Lucifer/Jesus are brothers that  most of us have heard.

We believe in the Pre-Mortal existence

Please explain how this is different then  reincarnation?

We believe Marriage is essential for exaltation

Please explain if this means that for those not able to marrym they are lost?

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Thu Dec 27, 2018 - 13:23:53Please explain if this means that for those not able to marry they are lost?

Quote from: RB on Thu Dec 27, 2018 - 14:27:37

He said " We believe Marriage is essential for exaltation"

We know they are very pro marriage. Multiple wives are still in existence as I know of one family in AZ.
One of the wives having been divorced.

And when the divorce they remarry . But not due to what we know as being in the Holy Bible of God.

Marie Osmond.... Married 3 times.... to the same man twice with one in between that they both said was no fault.

So the additional documents that the Latter Day Saints claim gives them that leaway.....

(On 26th June 1982 Marie married Stephen Lyle Craig, a Brigham Young University basketball player. They divorced in October 1985.

Marie married Brian Blosil on 28th October 1986 at the Jordan River Temple in Utah. On 30th March 2007 Osmond and Bosil announced that they were divorcing with both parties releasing a joint statement stating that neither one assigned fault for the divorce.

On 4th May 2011 Marie remarried her first husband Stephen Craig in a small ceremony in the Las Vegas Nevada Temple wearing her dress from the 1982 wedding.)

But according to this  " " We believe Marriage is essential for exaltation"

The Bible dictionary tells us that Exaltation means.


In the Bible "exaltation" most often refers to the lofty position of God and of Jesus Christ, but sometimes the term is applied to human beings, especially to Israel and her king. The most common Hebrew terms for "lift up, exalt" are rum [Wr], nasa [a'f"n] and gabah [H;b"G], while hupsoo [uJyovw] is the Greek equivalent.

They believe Marriage is essential for exaltation or necessary to attain the lofty position of God and of Jesus Christ.

He said "We believe in Eternal Progression, in other words, God's ultimate work and glory is to help us become like Him."

So to become like God you must be married.

BUT NOT ALL people have the ability to ever get married for any number of reasons.

I never have and you know why.

So, I want to know what they believe will be the outcome of the unmarried people.Are we lost for eternity, doomed, damned or will just be the footstools for the married folk wherever their eternities are....Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom or Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84; D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–90, 98–106, 109–112.?

I suspect it will be this latter..... cause we never married. Or maybe we will get a re-do as in reincarnation?/

What

OH

QuoteWell sir, the book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are NOT part of the HOLY WRIT.  And can easily be proven using the HOLY SCRIPTURES that WERE given by the inspiration of God HIMSELF.

I don't think you know what "prove" means.

QuoteWell so do the people of Idolatrous people Japan~ they too worship their dead ancestors. We do not even worship our father Abraham even though he was never baptized according to the NT! Baptism is for LIVING NT saints ONLY. If you desire to consider 1st Cor. 15:29 I'll be happy to do so.

You are incorrect. Latter-day Saints do not worship their ancestors. The very thought is preposterous. We worship God only.

I don't need to reference 1st Corinthians 15:29, though I do believe it supports my position. One only needs to read Doctrine and Covenants 128.

QuoteEternal Progression is an impossibility! God IS a Spirit that dwells in eternity whom NO ANGELS OF MAN has ever seen, or will see, OR CAN SEE and CERTAINLY CAN NEVER BE EQUAL TO HIM! Besides each and every child of God IS LIKE Jesus Christ NOW in their inward man!

Eternal progression does not mean we become Equal with God. That will never happen. He will always be our father and God. The concept of becoming like God, a glorified, exalted being was  the orthodox position of early Christianity. Read the words of Irenaeus, who just happened to be a disciple of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of the Apostle John. Clement of Alexandria also supported the doctrine of the deification of man. So did Origen, Justin Martyr and a whole slew of others. Not to mention that it's a biblical doctrine. You ignore God's words at your own peril.

QuotePray to tell me~WHERE IS HEAVEN according to your view? ANd prove that there THREE degrees in heaven, which you cannot do.

Please prove to me that the Garden of Eden existed...seriously, I can't believe you expect me to PROVE something that is inherently unprovable. I can't prove anything to you. The only way you will see the truth is if you humble yourself and ask God. He's the only one that can 'prove' it to you.

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It does not surprise me, you reject EVERY TRUTH of the holy scriptures~why in world would you hold that TRUTH, and I'm THANKFUL that you do not for your system does not deserve ONE truth.

Original sin is not a biblical doctrine and is false.

QuotePremortal existence is much like incarnation of the nation of India's relglions~ again does not surprise me. Asian religions, especially Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism is where your prophet/god (Joesph Smith) got the foundation for those beliefs.

Do you believe Jesus Christ didn't exist until he was born in Bethlehem? Your comment here seems to suggest that. Unless you believe that the son of God is simply a reincarnated being...Pre-mortal existence merely attests to our existence prior to being born on earth. To claim it is like reincarnation (which is wholly against Scripture) is silly.

QuoteIt does not surprise me....WHERE does that leave John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Paul?

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It does not surprise me....WHERE does that leave John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and Paul?

Does the Bible ever definitively say that none of the above mentioned EVER got married?

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We test ALL religion by the written word of God per 1st John 4:1 and when we do, your cult is found to be against the teachings of the holy Scriptures. 

On the contrary, I HAVE tested the written word of God and know with one hundred percent certainty that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church. You have simply been deceived by false doctrines and teachers.

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Please list any denomination(s) that actually believes this.

Not exactly an answer to your specific question, but here is the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article on the Trinity, which gives the traditional "Christian"definition:

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus "threefold")[1] holds that God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantial persons[2] or hypostases[3]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[5][6][7] Sometimes differing views are referred to as nontrinitarian.

The coeternal, cosubstantial part is taken right from the Nicene Creed. Any church who professes to believe in the Holy Trinity, as far as I know, defines it as such.

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Please explain the Mormon view of why Baptism is necessary, who performs a baptism, who receives a baptism and how a baptism is performed?

Baptism is the first ordinance of the gospel and is the proverbial gate to the Celestial Kingdom and God's presence. It is a requirement for exaltation and salvation in the highest degree of glory. From the Bible, we would cite Mark 16:16, amongst others speaking of the necessity of baptism, but we also draw from our additional Scriptures such as the Book of Mormon which also specifies the essential nature of the practice.

A baptism may be performed by someone who holds the proper authority to do so. This authority is called the Priesthood and it is conferred upon an individual by the laying on of hands. There are two divisions of the Priesthood, the lesser priesthood called the Aaronic Priesthood, the higher Priesthood called Melchizedek. The Priesthood offices within the Aaronic Priesthood are: Deacon, Teacher and Priest, whereas the offices within the Melchizedek Priesthood are Elder, High Priest, Patriarch, Seventy and Apostle. In order to perform a baptism, one must hold the office of Priest or higher.

Anyone who seeks to become a disciple of Christ and desires to abide by his words is to be baptized. From an administrative perspective, it is also how one joins our church.

A baptism is performed by immersion for the remission of sins.

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Please explain if this means that once you become like Him you will be equal to Him. In other words... actual Gods yourselves.

No, to your first inquiry. We will never be equal to God. We will always be his children and we will always worship him. Yes, to your second question

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The bible tells us this is not unlike Satan .... "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation ... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'" Isaiah 14:12-15.

There is a difference. Lucifer sought to supplant God, to glorify himself and take upon himself the honor that rightly belongs to God the Father. He was motivated by greed and selfishness. Our own exaltation is a gift from a loving God who desires for us to experience the same fullness of joy He has. We will never reach our divine potential by following Lucifer's example.

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Please clarify if your ultimate goal is to be like Lucifer? That would certainly explain the Lucifer/Jesus are brothers that  most of us have heard.

No. Lucifer is a fallen angel who has been cast forever from the presence of God. His destiny is eternal misery and torment. Lucifer ultimate goal was to overthrow God. Our goal is to serve God.

QuotePlease explain how this is different then  reincarnation?

Reincarnation is the philosophical or religious concept that an aspect of a living being starts a new life in a different physical body or form after each biological death. This has nothing to do with our Pre-mortal existence. That would be akin to saying that the resurrection is the same thing as reincarnation, simply because we entered into a different phase of our existence. The doctrine of the Pre-Mortal existence merely posits that we did not have our beginnings with conception or birth, but that our spirit existed prior to our sojourn in mortality, that we lived with God prior to being born on earth. Anyone who has been born on earth is said to have kept their first estate, meaning, the first test of righteousness. Those who sided with Lucifer in the war in heaven were cast from the presence of God and were forever denied physical bodies. Since you and I are both on earth, that is evidence that we sided with God and have earned the privilege of undergoing this test we call mortality.

QuotePlease explain if this means that for those not able to marrym they are lost?

No blessing will be withheld from anyone honestly seeking to fulfill God's commandments.

President Lorenzo Snow was a Prophet of God and fifth President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who presided over the church from 1898-1901. He had this to say on the subject:

"There is no Latter-day Saint who dies after having lived a faithful life who will lose anything because of having failed to do certain things when opportunities were not furnished him or her. In other words, if a young man or a young woman has no opportunity of getting married, and they live faithful lives up to the time of their death, they will have all the blessings, exaltation, and glory that any man or woman will have who had this opportunity and improved it. That is sure and positive"

How this will be accomplished, I don't know. I don't think anyone does. We simply have faith that God will sort all that out. Ultimately, some way, somehow, all things will work together for the good of them that believe.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Thu Dec 27, 2018 - 16:48:03I don't think you know what "prove" means.

Well, why do you not test me and see?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03You are incorrect. Latter-day Saints do not worship their ancestors. The very thought is preposterous. We worship God only.

I don't need to reference 1st Corinthians 15:29, though I do believe it supports my position. One only needs to read Doctrine and Covenants 128.

You know the Pharisees made the same claim to Christ in John 8, and he had to speak very plain to them to inform them....

Quote from: Jesus Christ the ONLY HEAD of the Church of GodJohn 8:42-47~"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Your god is Joseph Smith, and your true bible is

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03One only needs to read Doctrine and Covenants 128

We hold to 2nd Timothy 3:16....

Quote from: Paul2nd Timothy 3:16,17~All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

We agree with Isaiah....

Quote from: IsaiahIsaiah 8:20~"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03I don't need to reference 1st Corinthians 15:29, though I do believe it supports my position

Prove it~ I'm convinced you cannot.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03Eternal progression does not mean we become Equal with God. That will never happen. He will always be our father and God. The concept of becoming like God, a glorified, exalted being was  the orthodox position of early Christianity. Read the words of Irenaeus, who just happened to be a disciple of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of the Apostle John. Clement of Alexandria also supported the doctrine of the deification of man. So did Origen, Justin Martyr and a whole slew of others. Not to mention that it's a biblical doctrine. You ignore God's words at your own peril.

If it is as you claim a biblical doctrine, then prove your doctrine~ the early church had many heretics after the death of the apostles~ we test them by the holy scriptures just as we test people like you. It is NOT us who are ignoring the holy scriptures but your cult and especially so when they go against your many heresies.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03Please prove to me that the Garden of Eden existed...seriously, I can't believe you expect me to PROVE something that is inherently unprovable. I can't prove anything to you. The only way you will see the truth is if you humble yourself and ask God. He's the only one that can 'prove' it to you.

Let us be clear, I'm NOT questioning the truth of a New Earth and a New Heavens, I'm just asking you to give your understanding of God's children inheritance. Let us see if the scriptures will support it.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03Original sin is not a biblical doctrine and is false.

Prove it, give your understanding.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03Do you believe Jesus Christ didn't exist until he was born in Bethlehem?

Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Mary did not exist UNTIL he was conceived in the womb of a virgin named Mary, AS FAR AS HIS HUMANITY GOES~Jesus was a complex person BOTH man and God~as God he IS the I'AM THAT I'AM, as the Son of God he DID NOT EXIST until two thousand years ago!  There's your answer.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03Pre-mortal existence merely attests to our existence prior to being born on earth. To claim it is like reincarnation (which is wholly against Scripture) is silly.

HERESY! And yes, a form of reincarnation! Then may I ask you WHAT/WHO were you before you came to earth? Oh, you do not know, I thought so.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03Does the Bible ever definitively say that none of the above mentioned EVER got married?

Of course they did not. SO, WHERE does that leave THREE of the greatest prophets of God? They lived a totally different life than the prophets of the Mormon Chruch who are nothing more than whoremongers~"ALL" in the name of religion! The worse kind of whoremongers.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 16:48:03On the contrary, I HAVE tested the written word of God and know with one hundred percent certainty that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church. You have simply been deceived by false doctrines and teachers.

I am of CHRIST~ thank God I'm not a follower of Joseph Smith who was killed for his spirit of being a whoremonger.

Faith in Jesus, but a Spirit child of God Jesus, is faith in the Mormon Jesus.

Faith in a false Jesus like those the LDS adherents have is worthless.

I like the Mormons, the LDS of Jesus Christ much more than proselytizing Christians. My Book of Mormon specifically says another Testament of Jesus Christ. The idea that LDS are not Christians is ridiculous!

I find the criticism against LDS in this thread petty and duplicitous, holding words in the Bible as open to metaphorical interpretation but the Book of Mormon to an easy to defeat literal interpretation. Ex 35:2 clearly states that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be executed. This is the word of God. Yet, Jesus comes along and works on the Sabbath and pretends those that want to kill him are violating the Law of Moses at John 7:19. So, I'd like the same bias to seeing truth and light in another Testament of Jesus Christ as is given to the original Scriptures.

Finally, I wish this was more of a respectful, learning discussion rather than a contemptuous argument and remind you all of Titus 3:9 "But don't have anything to do with stupid arguments about ancestors. And stay away from disagreements and quarrels about the Law of Moses. Such arguments are useless and senseless.'

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Thu Dec 27, 2018 - 16:48:03


You are incorrect. Latter-day Saints do not worship their ancestors. The very thought is preposterous. We worship God only.

But why do they baptize for the dead? You  cannot save another person. That is strictly between that person and God. One cannot be saved after they are dead.
So what is the purpose.

Same with prayer for the dead. They are dead. It is finished for them and they await their eternal outcome.....

Even so.....

Roman Catholic theology, for example, allows for prayers both to the dead and on behalf of them. But even Catholic authorities admit that there is no explicit authorization for prayers on behalf of the dead in the sixty-six books of canonical Scripture. Instead, they appeal to the Apocrypha (2 Maccabees 12:45), church tradition, the decree of the Council of Trent, etc., to defend the practice.

They, the Roman Catholic church has their additions to the Holy Bible.... as do you.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Thu Dec 27, 2018 - 16:48:03

I don't need to reference 1st Corinthians 15:29, though I do believe it supports my position. One only needs to read Doctrine and Covenants 128.

As I mentioned above.... the Roman Catholic church has their own additional add ons to the bible as well as other documentation they follow and believe.

Why should one believe yours over theirs? What makes yours correct and theirs faulty?

BTW. I am not Catholic and I do not follow them in any way.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Thu Dec 27, 2018 - 16:48:03

Please prove to me that the Garden of Eden existed...seriously, I can't believe you expect me to PROVE something that is inherently unprovable. I can't prove anything to you. The only way you will see the truth is if you humble yourself and ask God. He's the only one that can 'prove' it to you.

Seriously? For myself, I have a book of scripture that tells of the garden of Eden. I have a book not just in English but also ancient Hebrew that talks of it.

The man who wrote Genesis was just as inspired as your 14 year old Joseph Smith and he was not out smoking who knows what in the woods when his great inspirations came to him as he wrote things.... 

You claim Joseph Smith saw God, and Jesus, yet we are told that non man has seen the father, nor can. Even Moses talked with God. He had tangible proof in his hands by way of tablets God etched with the commandments, and they were not lost not disappeared as did the golden tablets Smith claimed.

The bible tells us no man can see God and for that reason when God passed Moses he shielded Moses' face with his hand.

Even the Roman Cathlolic children... one boy 2 girls.... (Lucia Abobora, 9, and her cousins, Jacinta and Francisco Marto, 6 and 7) only saw Mary.... Not Jesus or God. Yet Mary gave a sign when the sun danced around to the true believers gathered.... NOT just 1 14 year old boy.  And Lucia was given 3 prophesies.
Three Secrets of Fátima which consisted of a series of apocalyptic visions.

So, there are others then Smith who have been visited from above and also given knowledge.

QuoteWell, why do you not test me and see?

I could, but what would be the point? I already know how such an exchange would play out. You are going to claim you can disprove some doctrine or teaching of the church by quoting a Bible passage that is open to interpretation. Then you will claim that YOUR interpretation is objectively the correct one. I then, will disagree with your conclusion, and put forth a different interpretation more in line with my beliefs. You, then, will resort to attacking my standing before Christ. Rinse, repeat.

QuoteJohn 8:42-47

Not really seeing the point of you posting this. I agree with what's written, and it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we worship our ancestors.

QuoteYour god is Joseph Smith, and your true bible is

So apparently you believe lying is an acceptable practice of a  true Christian...and you have the audacity to claim that I don't really follow Christ. I hope the irony is not lost on you.

Joseph Smith is not our god. He was a prophet. That's it. To continue stating otherwise is to bear false witness against your neighbor.

Our true Bible is the same as yours. Unlike you, however, we are willing to hear more of God's word, whereas you hold the the false doctrine that the sixty-six books of the Christian Bible is the only source of Scripture there is...a claim that the Bible itself doesn't even support.

QuoteWe hold to 2nd Timothy 3:16..

You certainly love your logical fallacies, don't you? This is a classic case of the fallacy known as "begging the question." You assume your premise is correct and that 2nd Timothy supports the idea of sole Scriptural authority through the Bible alone. You err in believing that the only Scripture God gave is contained in the Holy Bible. Timothy is correct, but it applies to ALL Scriptures that come from God, including the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. Posting this verse in no way invalidates my position. Same goes for your quote from Isiah. Nice try, though.

QuoteProve it~ I'm convinced you cannot.

You're right. I can't prove it, for the same reason you can't "prove" your position. We have different beliefs which color our interpretation of Scripture. I'm familiar with the arguments against 1st Corinthians 15:29 supporting baptism for the dead and I'm willing to concede that my interpretation on that passage could be incorrect. Yet it doesn't matter because our practice of proxy baptism is not rooted in that one passage, but in direct revelation from God to engage in it as found in Doctrine and Covenants 128. I know it's from God because I asked Him. You can also know it is true if YOU ask him.

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If it is as you claim a biblical doctrine, then prove your doctrine~ the early church had many heretics after the death of the apostles~ we test them by the holy scriptures just as we test people like you. It is NOT us who are ignoring the holy scriptures but your cult and especially so when they go against your many heresies.

And the doctrine of the deification of Man IS a biblical doctrine, even if the terminology is different. All the requisite parts are present. Here are a list of doctrines taken from the Bible. Tell me if there are any with which you disagree.


    We were created in the image of God
    God is the father of our spirits
    We are the offspring of God
    Christ calls us gods
    Man has become as God
    We will inherit all things
    We will be co-heirs with Christ of all things
    We will have glory
    We will have thrones
    We will be filled with the fullness of God
    We will be partakers of the divine nature of God
    We will be one with God
    We shall be like Him
    Our bodies will be fashioned like His glorious body
    We can gain perfection

Now tell me what that sounds like.

QuoteLet us be clear, I'm NOT questioning the truth of a New Earth and a New Heavens, I'm just asking you to give your understanding of God's children inheritance. Let us see if the scriptures will support it.

It's my understanding that the earth upon which we stand will be the dwelling place of Celestialized beings. This earth will pass away and be renewed and glorified, and those who overcame the world will reign here, thus literally fulfilling the words of Christ that the meek shall inherit the earth. Where those who attain some degree of salvation, I don't know. A place will be prepared for them, but I don't know where.

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Prove it, give your understanding.

How are you defining Original Sin? It's a broad theological umbrella. When Latter-day Saints speak of rejecting original sin, we speak specifically of the concept that we are somehow guilty of Adam's transgression. We teach that Adam is responsible for his disobedience, and we are responsible for our own actions. However, as a result of the Fall, Man has been separated from God and we have in essence inherited a predisposition to sin. As far as I know, we tend to reject things like "total depravity," and such.

QuoteJesus of Nazareth, the son of Mary did not exist UNTIL he was conceived in the womb of a virgin named Mary, AS FAR AS HIS HUMANITY GOES~Jesus was a complex person BOTH man and God~as God he IS the I'AM THAT I'AM, as the Son of God he DID NOT EXIST until two thousand years ago!  There's your answer.

You dodged the question. You did this, I think, because you knew where I was going with it. I will ask it differently then. Did God the Son exist prior to being born as Jesus of Nazareth?

QuoteHERESY! And yes, a form of reincarnation! Then may I ask you WHAT/WHO were you before you came to earth? Oh, you do not know, I thought so.

You need to learn what words mean. Reincarnation has a specific definition. I already posted it in response to another poster here. In case you missed it, here's the definition again:

Reincarnation is the philosophical or religious concept that an aspect of a living being starts a new life in a different physical body or form after each biological death.

As you can see, this has nothing to do with our doctrine of a pre-mortal existence. In order to be considered reincarnation, one must "die" and become something different. Our pre-mortal self does not "die" when we came to earth, nor does our species change. It's not like we were human, died and came back as a bug. We were, are and will always be Children of God. Our Pre-mortal existence is simply one stage of our journey.  To say a belief that we existed prior to our mortal birth is the same as reincarnation means one must draw the same conclusion as to our spirit's continued existence after we die. Do you believe that after we die, our spirit continues to live? How is that any different? It's the exact same thing as pre-existence, only in reverse.


You also presume to know things that you do not. I DO in fact know who or what I was before I came to earth. I was me. I was a child of God in the pre-mortal existence just like I am a child of God now and will continue to be long after I die and beyond. I followed and obeyed God then, and because of my faithfulness there, I was permitted to come to earth, gain a physical body and continue along the path God has planned for his children.

Also, the pre-mortal existence is attested to in the Bible. Consider Jeremiah 1:5

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"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Some will argue that this is simply illustratingGod's foreknowledge, that God was merely acknowledging that He knew what kind of person Jeremiah was going to be. That wold be fine, except when we read that Jeremiah was sanctified and ordained. These are actions that require participants.

Job 38:1-7 also indicates the potential for premortal existence. God literally asks Job where he was when God laid the foundation of the world and when the morning stars sang together, when ALL the sons of God shouted for joy.

And lastly, consider Ecclesiastes 12:7, which reads,

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"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

Now this is cause to consider: how can something return to someplace it had never been? As the author of Ecclesiastes writes, when we die, our spirit RETURNS to God. How could it return to God if our Spirit was instantaneously created and placed in our physical body at conception or birth?

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Of course they did not. SO, WHERE does that leave THREE of the greatest prophets of God? They lived a totally different life than the prophets of the Mormon Chruch who are nothing more than whoremongers~"ALL" in the name of religion! The worse kind of whoremongers.

Says you. As you are so fond of saying, prove it. Show where in the Bible it ever states unequivocally that John the Baptist, Jesus Christ and Paul NEVER married. 

QuoteI am of CHRIST~ thank God I'm not a follower of Joseph Smith who was killed for his spirit of being a whoremonger.

Likewise, I am not a follower of Joseph Smith. He was the prophet God used to restore His church. But I follow Christ. To quote the Book of Mormon: 2nd Nephi 25:26

Quote
And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

QuoteBut why do they baptize for the dead? You  cannot save another person. That is strictly between that person and God. One cannot be saved after they are dead.
So what is the purpose.

Tell me. What happens to the billions of righteous people who never accepted Christ, not because they didn't want to, but because the opportunity was not presented to them? Does God give them a pass, ignoring His own law that one must believe and be baptized? That would make God unjust? Or does he simply condemn them to hell because they had the misfortune of being born in North Korea where preaching Christianity is illegal? That would make God unmerciful.

Baptism for the dead is the missing piece of a theological puzzle people of faith have attempted to put together for millennia. If God requires baptism for salvation, how can he be just in making it available to so few?

When we are baptized for our deceased relatives, that action does not 'save' them in and of itself. It merely presents the dead with an opportunity to accept the gospel, an opportunity they may have been denied while in life. They still retain their agency and can, if they choose, reject the work done on their behalf.

We know that after one dies, that isn't necessarily the end. We know, according to Peter's record, that Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. Why preach to those who are already lost unless a way out was being offered?

And just to preempt any argument that this somehow represents a 'second chance,' it does not. Baptism for the dead is designed to offer a chance to accept Christ to those who would have accepted it had they been given the chance. It is not designed a way to save those who rejected Christ in this life and expect a convenient get out of jail free card after they die.

QuoteWhy should one believe yours over theirs? What makes yours correct and theirs faulty?

Why should one accept the Bible and not the Qu'ran? The same quandary is present. Most people accept the religious traditions they were raised with. If you were born Catholic, you'll put more stock into Catholic writings and teachings. On this forum, most people were raised to believe that the Holy Bible is the sole source of God's word, so they reject outright the idea of any additional scriptures. I, likewise, have been a Latter-day Saint for twenty years, so the idea of extra biblical Scriptures like the Book of Mormon do not bother me.

But if you desire to know the truth, there is indeed only one way to find out. I'd recommend the advice given in James 1:5, "if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not..."  Only God can reveal truth. That is how I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's church, how I know the Book of Mormon is Scripture and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I simply asked my Father in Heaven, and He answered!

Quote

Seriously? For myself, I have a book of scripture that tells of the garden of Eden. I have a book not just in English but also ancient Hebrew that talks of it.

With all due respect, that's not proof. If it were, atheism wouldn't be a thing. That would be like me saying I can prove Joseph Smith was a prophet, then quoting passages in the Doctrine and Covenants that state he was.  You can only prove that someone once wrote of a place called the Garden of Eden. Now prove that the Bible is fact and not fiction. Prove that the Garden of Eden is to be understood literally and not metaphorically. Indeed, prove that there was not an error in translation. For the record, I DO believe the Bible is true and that Eden was a real place, but you can't PROVE it.

RB was asking me to prove that there are three degrees of heaven, and that is impossible. I can't 'show him' these degrees of glory. The best I can do is point to LDS scriptures that attest to this fact (which he doesn't believe in) or cite biblical passages I believe supports this notion (and he would disagree with my interpretation) At best, anything I show would be inconclusive, just as RB cannot prove that there are NOT three degrees of glory.

Quote
You claim Joseph Smith saw God, and Jesus, yet we are told that non man has seen the father, nor can. Even Moses talked with God. He had tangible proof in his hands by way of tablets God etched with the commandments, and they were not lost not disappeared as did the golden tablets Smith claimed.

Do you believe God the Father is omnipotent? Do you believe it is beyond God's powers to grant unto certain individuals the ability to behold his glory, if it suits his purpose?

You also claim that the tablets were not lost or disappeared...? They most certainly did...unless you know their current location?

Quote

So, there are others then Smith who have been visited from above and also given knowledge.

That's true. So tell me, how do you personally discern truth amongst a multitude of sources? How can you know what is right and what is wrong? How did you come to believe in the Bible and not some other holy book? How do you know Jesus is your savior?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 11:48:43

Our true Bible is the same as yours. Unlike you, however, we are willing to hear more of God's word, whereas you hold the the false doctrine that the sixty-six books of the Christian Bible is the only source of Scripture there is...a claim that the Bible itself doesn't even support.

RB will answer your challenges for himself but a couple of things I am compelled to comment on.

Regarding " we are willing to hear more of God's word".

Be certain that you include ALL of the  Tanakh, (three main divisions: Torah (Law), Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings).... all of the additional books the Various Catholic Bibles have , Roman 73 plus 2 more in the Latin Vulgate, Greek Orthodox has 79 plus Psalm 151 and 3 Maccabees. The Greek Bible also includes 4 Maccabees in an appendix.

AND OF MOST INTEREST : The Ethiopian Orthodox Bible includes 86 books, including all the books in the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Bibles, plus Jubilees, Enoch, Synodicon, Diddascalia Apostolorum, Testament of the Lord, Qalementus, and 4 Baruch.

You MUST include the Gnostic text and all from the Dead Sea Scrolls....

And finish up with the Holy Koran, / Quran.

All can be found and read online....

and after you finish these we can refer you to some ancient texts and writings.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 11:48:43
I know it's from God because I asked Him. You can also know it is true if YOU ask him.

Well, it seems that God will and does give different answers to different people. For that reason I am leaving the rest of
this paragraph of your alone because I can only agree with parts of it.

 

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 11:48:43
It's my understanding that the earth upon which we stand will be the dwelling place of Celestialized beings. This earth will pass away and be renewed and glorified, and those who overcame the world will reign here, thus literally fulfilling the words of Christ that the meek shall inherit the earth.

I have read of this before and not as a COJCOLDS doctrin... ( Sorry... the name you now prefer is too long) I pray this is so cause I plan to plant myself in the middle of the Hawaiian Islands......

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 11:48:43

You dodged the question. You did this, I think, because you knew where I was going with it. I will ask it differently then. Did God the Son exist prior to being born as Jesus of Nazareth?

I answered this in my other thread reply to you.... RB will answer for himself.

God the Son as God had to have existed. That is a truly dumb question.
But You as a mortal man are not and never were deity and therefor unless you were an angel come to earth to marry the daughters of man... you did not exist in any form other then in the thoughts of God the Father... who made and created you in His image with everything good and bad about you based on how hHe perceived you ( knew you) before you came into being.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 11:48:43
Also, the pre-mortal existence is attested to in the Bible. Consider Jeremiah 1:5

Some will argue that this is simply illustratingGod's foreknowledge, that God was merely acknowledging that He knew what kind of person Jeremiah was going to be. That wold be fine, except when we read that Jeremiah was sanctified and ordained. These are actions that require participants.

That in no way says all people ... it says one. Jeremiah was selected for a purpose. He may have been formed after God knew He wanted a person for that purpose. It does not mean that there was a gene pool that God selected someone from.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 11:48:43

And lastly, consider Ecclesiastes 12:7, which reads,
Now this is cause to consider: how can something return to someplace it had never been? As the author of Ecclesiastes writes, when we die, our spirit RETURNS to God. How could it return to God if our Spirit was instantaneously created and placed in our physical body at conception or birth?
 

There is no reason under the sun to think anything other then that

"our spirit RETURNS to God. How could it return to God if our Spirit was instantaneously created and placed in our physical body at conception or birth?"

Spirits cannot be destroyed from all I have read and heard. But they can be created at the will of the Father.

Once conception takes place a spirit is created for a specific mortal body and whan that mortal body dies, that spirit returns to the one who created it.

That is simplicity to the extreme and very logical.

QuoteRB will answer your challenges for himself but a couple of things I am compelled to comment on.

Regarding " we are willing to hear more of God's word".

Be certain that you include ALL of the  Tanakh, (three main divisions: Torah (Law), Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings).... all of the additional books the Various Catholic Bibles have , Roman 73 plus 2 more in the Latin Vulgate, Greek Orthodox has 79 plus Psalm 151 and 3 Maccabees. The Greek Bible also includes 4 Maccabees in an appendix.

AND OF MOST INTEREST : The Ethiopian Orthodox Bible includes 86 books, including all the books in the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Bibles, plus Jubilees, Enoch, Synodicon, Diddascalia Apostolorum, Testament of the Lord, Qalementus, and 4 Baruch.

You MUST include the Gnostic text and all from the Dead Sea Scrolls....

And finish up with the Holy Koran, / Quran.

All can be found and read online....

and after you finish these we can refer you to some ancient texts and writings.

Interesting take. I reject it, though. Just because we believe that God has  given us more Scripture than just the Holy Bible doesn't mean we are under mandate to accept anything and everything anyone claims is Scripture. The Qu'ran contradicts the Bible in that it robs Christ of His divinity. The Bible and Qu'ran both can't be correct. Gnostics taught that the matter is inherently evil, which conflicts with Latter-day Saint teachings that everything, including our spirits are comprised of matter. They also teach of an unknowable God, conflicting with our ideas that He is knowable.  I am not familiar with a lot of the Catholic writings, but can assume they conflict with our own faith on numerous points of doctrine. Whereas  the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants are harmonious with each other.

Are you a Bible-only Christian? If so, on what basis?

QuoteI have read of this before and not as a COJCOLDS doctrin... ( Sorry... the name you now prefer is too long) I pray this is so cause I plan to plant myself in the middle of the Hawaiian Islands......

Indeed, some members of the church jokingly refer to the church as "Codge Colds." I commend you for at least acknowledging our stance on the name of the church.

Quote
God the Son as God had to have existed. That is a truly dumb question.
But You as a mortal man are not and never were deity and therefor unless you were an angel come to earth to marry the daughters of man... you did not exist in any form other then in the thoughts of God the Father... who made and created you in His image with everything good and bad about you based on how hHe perceived you ( knew you) before you came into being.

I think you misunderstand the point I was trying to make. RB was attempting to link our belief in the Pre Mortal existence with the false doctrine of reincarnation. He posited that a belief that we existed prior to our birth indicates an acceptance of some form of reincarnation. I was merely attempting to show the flaw in his logic, for to follow this to its natural conclusion, one must also admit that Jesus Christ is simply the reincarnated version of God the Son since Jesus existed prior to his birth in Bethlehem. I'm sure RB doesn't actually believe that, but that is the unfavorable position he placed himself in by stating that merely believing we existed before mortality equates to reincarnation. It would have to apply to Christ as well.

Your second point is interesting, and troubling at the same time and it is precisely why the doctrine of premortal existence is essential to the plan. If God in fact created us, his children, out of nothing, why? God doesn't need us to exist in order to be perfect or have a fullness of joy...he existed a long time before the first man came along, why couldn't he continue on that way? More to the point, God is both all knowing and all powerful. If that is true then he knew before creating us that some would not qualify for salvation. Yet he created them anyways knowing they were destined for hell.  Why would he do that?  By virtue of his omnipotence, he could have made us better, but he didn't. This means that God is solely responsible for our evil actions. If we didn't exist until God created us, out of nothing, then everything we are is a result of the way God made us. God created our evil impulses and weaknesses, and for what purpose? Premortal existence solves the dilemma of evil and whether or not God created evil in the first place.

Quote
Once conception takes place a spirit is created for a specific mortal body and whan that mortal body dies, that spirit returns to the one who created it.

No, because if God instantaneously created a spirit housed within a physical body, then it was never WITH God, so it can't RETURN to God. The only way this passage makes sense is if we had an existence in the presence of God at some point.

QuoteYour god is Joseph Smith, and your true bible is

I wonder where this contempt comes from. No where do LDS say anything like this.

QuoteSo apparently you believe lying is an acceptable practice of a  true Christian...and you have the audacity to claim that I don't really follow Christ. I hope the irony is not lost on you.

Joseph Smith is not our god. He was a prophet. That's it. To continue stating otherwise is to bear false witness against your neighbor.

Our true Bible is the same as yours. Unlike you, however, we are willing to hear more of God's word, whereas you hold the the false doctrine that the sixty-six books of the Christian Bible is the only source of Scripture there is...a claim that the Bible itself doesn't even support.

Perhaps non-LDS Christians want Paul to be the last prophet?

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 14:26:28
Interesting take. I reject it, though. Just because we believe that God has  given us more Scripture than just the Holy Bible doesn't mean we are under mandate to accept anything and everything anyone claims is Scripture.

Are you a Bible-only Christian? If so, on what basis?

I believe there is more. I believe that the scripture in the bible was cherry picked for Canon and doctrine.

We know for fact that the Catholics have far more in their bibles, Some apocryphal books, such as the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) were considered to be orthodox but not inspired. Others like the Gospel of Thomas and the Acts of Pilate contained serious theological errors.

If they were not inspired then they need to be questioned as to accuracy. But I believe there could well be unknown books, yet to be discovered that never made their way into the bible or elsewhere... must like they found the Dead Sea scrolls.

But one has to base their religious beliefs on God inspired scripture. You have other readings that you believe were God inspired. The Holy Bible is known world wide, whether or not one is permitted to read it or not.

Even in the Muslim world, though the Quran is at odds with it, there still are some similarities.

You mention your belief in  Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants but unless one is curious and looks them up to read them they basically fall on deaf ears and might well be for the blind. I had not given them thought until you mentioned them and it jogged my memory.

The Holy Bible... especially the 66 books... are well known. Perhaps not believed for whatever reason but known. As is the Quran becoming so.... so these two are influencing many.

Quote from: the_last_gunslinger on Fri Dec 28, 2018 - 12:41:14


Your second point is interesting, and troubling at the same time and it is precisely why the doctrine of premortal existence is essential to the plan. If God in fact created us, his children, out of nothing, why? God doesn't need us to exist in order to be perfect or have a fullness of joy...he existed a long time before the first man came along, why couldn't he continue on that way? More to the point, God is both all knowing and all powerful. If that is true then he knew before creating us that some would not qualify for salvation. Yet he created them anyways knowing they were destined for hell.  Why would he do that?  By virtue of his omnipotence, he could have made us better, but he didn't. This means that God is solely responsible for our evil actions. If we didn't exist until God created us, out of nothing, then everything we are is a result of the way God made us. God created our evil impulses and weaknesses, and for what purpose? Premortal existence solves the dilemma of evil and whether or not God created evil in the first place.
No, because if God instantaneously created a spirit housed within a physical body, then it was never WITH God, so it can't RETURN to God. The only way this passage makes sense is if we had an existence in the presence of God at some point.

You should be asking yourself why he created man in the first place.

If he had this bevy, or gaggle, or brood or band or whatever he calls a collection of spirits why after all the eons of eternity past or since his creation of angels and these spirits he decided some mere 6,000 years ago to put a living being on earth?

He had/has a plan. WE do not have a need to know, though I suspect something I will not say as I cannot prove yet.

To take a happy spirit, put it in a body, give it a soul... ( making us triune as well) ... I just do not believe we were made to be some kind of an ant farm for HIM. And then waiting 4,000 before Jesus came for our salvation?

All this in the blink of an eye in eternity.

He has a plan and I cannot believe pre-existence was part of anything.

Now... and don't call me a heretic... if God had come up with His plan for humanity, for His purposes and while in His planning stages
he went and created the spirits he would want ... don't take this the wrong way... meant only as example.... and had them
sorted into a spirit bank, ( not unlike a sperm bank) and possible the souls as well, that I could believe, but not in the way you believe in pre-existence.