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Hi to all ,  and I have seen , that many believe that  the  Apostle  Paul did water  baptize !!

I say Paul   NEVER  WATER  BAPTIZED !!

What say you and let the  fun begin ?

dan p

  Hi and we know that Paul was  given a new  message in 1  Cor 9:17   where Paul says , I have been entrusted with a  DISPENSATION which is not of my own  will !!

Then in 1 Cor 1:17 it says that Paul was not sent to  BAPTIZE !!

And  I have seen that their are  BAPTIZERS HERE , so lets talk about it ??

dan p

Quote from: dan p on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 12:41:43 And  I have seen that their are  BAPTIZERS HERE , so lets talk about it ??

Dan, all that embrace the religion of Jesus Christ, believe in water baptism~now if you feel you have something special that others do not, or others need to know then, by all means, lay it on us. I have a strong desire to seek truth from the scriptures, give what you believe to be the truth and someone will test it it~fair enough?

I'm pretty sure what you believe has been hashed out several times over. RB

   Hi and here is what  I have never seen nor  explained !!

In 1  Cor 1:13  OR  were you  baptized for the  name of  Paul !!

What Paul is saying here points back to not only  MATTT  28:19 where  ALL   baptisms to be followed by ,   Baptizing them in the    NAME of the  FATHER  , and of the  SON   and of the Holy  Spirit  !!

Then in Acts 2:38  , Peter  Baptized them in  THE  NAME OF  JESUS  CHRIST  !!

In  Acts 19:5  they were  BAPTIZED  in the  NAME OF THE  LORD  JESUS  !!

In 1  Cor 1:13 they were separated into  PARTS  !!   Was Paul  crucified for  you ?    Or were you  BAPTIZED for the  name of  Paul  ??

There were only a few  that  BAPTIZED  , the  12  apostles ,  Peter  and John  the  Baptist  all other  baptisms are done by the  HOLY  SPIRIT   as  Eph 4:5  says that there is  ONLY  ONE  BPTISMA   which , only gthe  HOLY SPIRIT   baptizes  today !!

In  Acts 19:6  Paul  BAPTIZED these 12 by   LAYING  HIS  HANDS  on them and they were speaking in Tongues and  Prophesying !!

  In 1  Cor 1:15  Paul could not  BAPTIZE   nor had the  authority to  baptize   LEST   anyone should say I  havd   BAPTIZED FOR  MY  NAME   , and that is why Paul could not  BAPTIZE  and also because Paul in 1 Cor 9:17 had been  ENTRUSTED  with a   DISPENSATION  that  EXCLUDED  Preaching the  Kingdom of  Heaven !!

dan p

Quote from: dan p on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 17:59:55
In  Acts 19:6  Paul  BAPTIZED these 12 by   LAYING  HIS  HANDS  on them and they were speaking in Tongues and  Prophesying !!

It does not say that.

It says:
"1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve."

verse 5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

then

Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

Not difficult to understand.

Thus I'm going to repeat myself:

Quote from: TonkaTim on Wed Feb 20, 2019 - 16:27:11
I honestly do not mean to be rude, but based on those comments I don't think I've ever seen greater reading comprehension failure.

You really need to address that problem young man.

I have for as many years as I have written on internet (since 2002), written - on internet - that the baptism of Christ is as written in the Written Word of God, "not with water".

Dan P. you have that right, that Paul never 'water-baptised' because he baptised the baptism of Christ.

No one else ever did. In fact, in one instance water was mentioned at an event of baptism, it is being argued that water cannot prevent a person's baptism, and in the only other event it is being argued water was needed for a person's baptism, that baptism was demanded by the unqualified, ignorant and ghastly preposterous baptised and not by the baptiser.

QuoteNot difficult to understand.
Thus I'm going to repeat myself:
Quote from: TonkaTim on Wed Feb 20, 2019 - 16:27:11
I honestly do not mean to be rude, but based on those comments I don't think I've ever seen greater reading comprehension failure.
You really need to address that problem young man.

Of course it's not difficult to understand when it is nothing at all one understands. It's called cock-sureness, which problem you really need to address old chap.

QuoteRB:
Dan, all that embrace the religion of Jesus Christ, believe in water baptism~now if you feel you have something special that others do not, or others need to know then, by all means, lay it on us. I have a strong desire to seek truth from the scriptures, give what you believe to be the truth and someone will test it it~fair enough?
I'm pretty sure what you believe has been hashed out several times over. RB

Thanks for publicly declaring your actual exclusive source of authority in all matters of faith and practical Christian living -- "'all that embrace the religion of Jesus Christ, believe... someone will test it... lay it on us. _I_ have a strong desire to seek...'".

NO THANKS, NOT FOR A SINGLE POINT OF SCRIPTURE-TRUTH!

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 18:48:47
It's called cock-sureness, which problem you really need to address old chap.

Probably so.

Somethings I'm quite sure about.


One thing I'm quite sure about is the poor fellow is either suffering from reading comprehension failure or someone is badly misleading him. Either way he needs to recognise which one it is.

Sometimes a sharp rebuke (Titus 1:13) is the most loving thing a man can do for another.

Draadsitter.

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 19:58:37
Draadsitter.

Not sure who you are calling a fence-sitter.

Regarding baptism Paul obviously implies he had others baptize for him.  Paul had the god-given wisdom & fore-sight to know it would/could cause divisions in the body of Christ. To say or imply otherwise is just false.

1 Corinthians 1
"10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Regarding whether we should all I need is testimony of Christ:

Quote from:  Jesus Christ, Mark 16:16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The Lord said do it. That's all I need to know.


I'll let others argue over more than that.





edit: for clarity

QuoteTonka Tim:
Regarding baptism Paul specifically explained why he had others baptize for him.  Paul had the god-given wisdom & fore-sight to know it would/could cause divisions in the body of Christ. To say or imply otherwise is just false.

1 Corinthians 1
"10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Regarding whether we should all I need is testimony of Christ:
Quote from:  Jesus Christ, Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The Lord said do it. That's all I need to know.


I'll let others argue over more than that.

Paul did not say "'he had others baptize for him'". Paul baptised Crispus and Gaius and also the household of Stephen. That's what he "'specifically explained'".

So the Lord never told you or me, "'do it'"; that's what you, unauthorised, claim.

And to claim "he that believeth and is baptised" means baptism in and or with water, is to preach the Gospel with wisdom of words, that the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 23:58:38
Paul did not say "'he had others baptize for him'". Paul baptised Crispus and Gaius and also the household of Stephen. That's what he "'specifically explained'".

I can read. It is implied. Not hard to understand.  Why I said "Paul had the god-given wisdom & fore-sight to know it would/could cause divisions in the body of Christ." It is the very point Paul is making.

Since it is obviously implied I'll concede it is not specifically & immutably stated in scripture. I can understand how the reading challenged could misunderstand & those with strange doctrines would want to misunderstand it. (I'll edit my post & change it from 'specifically stated' to 'obviously implies')

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 23:58:38
So the Lord never told you or me, "'do it'"; that's what you, unauthorised, claim.

Well He told us in clearly in scripture. Why I quoted it. He said "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Which is in agreement with this "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

This line "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" is important too.

Jesus told the Apostles to baptize & tells them to teach us to observe (to do, ie: do it).

Not hard to understand.

Now if you don't think it is water baptism that Jesus commanded a good place to look is in Acts 8 & the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch.

"34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 3 7And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea."

That is not real hard to understand either.


I know I'm just a dumb ol' country gentleman from the South (southern United States). But even I can understand plain English.


I'm getting the impression you don't think it is water baptism. I don't know you figure that. Scriptures are clear.
So ... tell us about this strange doctrine where water baptism isn't water baptism.
Or I am misunderstanding what you are saying in this quote:

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 23:58:38
And to claim "he that believeth and is baptised" means baptism in and or with water, is to preach the Gospel with wisdom of words, that the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

I must admit that line is not very clear.
I take it since it seems you are Dutch Afrikaner (implied because you used the word "Draadsitter" plus your name) English is not your first language?




edit: spelling & clarity

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 18:40:49Dan P. you have that right, that Paul never 'water-baptised' because he baptised the baptism of Christ.

And what is the baptism of Christ?  Where in the Bible can we read about that?  And how exactly did Paul go about baptizing the baptism of Christ, whatever that might be?  That is, please describe that process in detail.

Quote from: dan p on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 17:59:55and that is why Paul could not  BAPTIZE  and also because Paul in 1 Cor 9:17 had been  ENTRUSTED  with a   DISPENSATION  that  EXCLUDED  Preaching the  Kingdom of  Heaven !!

I have a few minutes before I must leave town, so I will only start my post and come back later to finish.

Sir, I have no clue who you are following, but you are not following the word of God.

What makes you think that Paul could not baptize those converted to the religion of Jesus Christ? Not once in the scriptures is it said that he could not, only he chose NOT to do so, lest any man put their baptism on a higher level than those that were not baptized by Paul~the very same reason that Jesus did not baptize converts.

Quote from: JohnJohn 4:1,2~"When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"

The Spirit of the Living God put in parenthesis..."Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples" to guide us as to WHY Jesus did not baptize folk converting to be his followers. If someone was baptized by Jesus, then that person would put MORE faith in his conversion than in other people's conversion~it's part of our fallen nature to think that way and BOTH Christ and Paul knew this very well, so both forbade baptizing converts and the ONLY reason they did so. There is NO reason given as to why both Jesus and Paul did not baptize converts, even though Paul did baptize a few folks, but kept it very few in numbers.  In the scriptures, disciples baptized other disciples for the most part. See Acts 9:10.

Quote from: dan p on: Yesterday at 17:59:55 also because Paul in 1 Cor 9:17 had been  ENTRUSTED  with a   DISPENSATION  that  EXCLUDED  Preaching the  Kingdom of  Heaven

I"ll come back and consider this later. The Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same and Paul preached that Kingdom.

Quote4WD:
And what is the baptism of Christ?  Where in the Bible can we read about that?  And how exactly did Paul go about baptizing the baptism of Christ, whatever that might be?  That is, please describe that process in detail.

Christ's baptism, Luke 12:50, Matthew 20:22,23 Mark 10:38,39 "How am I STRAIGHTENED till it be accomplished."

"straightened" [sunechomai] - "SUFFER" - "suffer PASCHA" - "Christ our PASSOVER - LAMB OF GOD".
'Sunechoh' – distress, be hard-pressed with anxiety, affliction

'Sunechomai heohs hotou TELESTHEHI' - Jesus' Baptism "FINISHED" John 19:30 Hebrews 12:2.

Christ's baptism, "Not with water" Mark 1:8 Matthew 3:11 Luke 3:16 John 1:26

"The Baptism of Christ" is no 'describable' human or organisational "'process'".

And Paul did not "'go about baptizing the baptism of Christ'", the Holy Spirit did.

Oh good grief ! !  How bad can it get.  Who knows, but you have certainly pointed the way.

GE, how did Paul respond to The admonition of Ananias in Acts 22 and WHY, where Ananias said to him, "why do you tarry, arise and be baptized washing away your sins calling upon the Lord." Was Paul's response necessary? Or was Ananias' words misdirected? Should his words have been an appeal TO the Holy Spirit on behalf of Paul? Or does other scripture give us a clue as to the gift of the Holy Spirit? This gift differientiating Christ's baptism from John's baptism.

QuoteTonkaTim:
Now if you don't think it is water baptism that Jesus commanded a good place to look is in Acts 8 & the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch.

Acts 8 is the worst place to look. Why not start at and with Jesus' command in Matthew 28 and Mark 16? Because it contains nothing about 'Go and baptise in / with water'... that's why!

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Fri Mar 15, 2019 - 11:19:55
Acts 8 is the worst place to look. Why not start at and with Jesus' command in Matthew 28 and Mark 16? Because it contains nothing about 'Go and baptise in / with water'... that's why!

Any place were the command to go and baptize, or to receive baptism, is a good place to look. So, in any of the places where such commands are found and the medium is mentioned, the medium is always water. For example:

Acts 10:47-48.
Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is water immersion. Unless you want to attribute error to the apostle, you have to agree.

Quote from: soterion on Fri Mar 15, 2019 - 11:47:29
Any place were the command to go and baptize, or to receive baptism, is a good place to look. So, in any of the places where such commands are found and the medium is mentioned, the medium is always water. For example:

Acts 10:47-48.
Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is water immersion. Unless you want to attribute error to the apostle, you have to agree.

Google his name. You'll find a few forum boards where he got muzzled (banned). I had to use google translate to read most of it. He doesn't believe in baptism. Holds to an extreme form of Calvinism, so much so, feels no need to witness or share the gospel.  Picks & chooses in the Bible, what he doesn't agree with he calls lies, myths, & fables. He is quite tame on this forum, probably doesn't want to get banned like in other places.

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Fri Mar 15, 2019 - 11:19:55Acts 8 is the worst place to look.

No place is worse than another place since the holy scriptures are ONE cohesive WHOLE teaching ONE doctrine concerning a particular doctrine and really it matters little where one starts.

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on: Today at 11:19:55Acts 8 is the worst place to look.

It's definitely a bad place for your strange teaching on water baptism under the new covenant, where the religion of Jesus Christ far excels the one Moses gave to Isreal in its glory~2nd Corinthians 3:1-18; Hebrews 3:1-6~ water baptism far exceeds any baptism that one made think is greater than water baptism that PLACES US INTO the same religion as that where Jesus is the head, Lord and King of the promised Kingdom that shall fill the new earth and heaven in God's promised new creation.

There is NO BAPTISM other than water baptism in the church epistles where we are commanded teach people to go and do; to go and offer; to go and exhort people to follow their conscience in obeying God.

There are short cuts that false prophets offer to people to make them think that they are spiritually minded and truth seekers by offering a spiritual baptism that can not be found in the word of God as far a men of God exhorting people to DO in order to be Spirit-filled. Spirit-filled Christians take years of hard work of submitting their wills to the will of God in walking in obedience to God's commandments. It DOES NOT happen in few minutes at some man-made altar where he can glory in his ability in helping you do be Spirit-filled, when THAT IS YOUR Christian duty over a course of years walking after God's holy commandments!

  Hi and I expected to debate what  Paul and what  ACTS  said about  BAPTISM !!

In Eph 4:5 is reads  One lord  , ONE  FAITH  , ONE  BAPTISM  and when checking the Greek text , Eph 4:5  does not  read  BAPTISM  but reads  BAPTISMA  , so check and see !!

Just one more verse so as not to  clutter with a long explanation ,  IF  when reading  1 Cor 15:29 and you all believe in WATER  BAPTISM  will you explain Why are they   BAPTIZED  FOR THE  DEAD !!

And in 1  Cor 10:2 and all were  BAPTIZED UNTO  Moses in the  CLOUD  and in the  SEA , how did that happen ??

By the way someone said that I probably was a  Calvinist ,  NO I AM NOT  , as I am a  DISPENSATIONALIST !!

Just want to see what you all believe , is that a  SIN   as this is a  debate section , right ??

dan p

 

  Hi and the number 5  stand for  GRACE , is that what you are saying ?

dan p

Quote from: dan p on Fri Mar 15, 2019 - 17:03:40
  Hi and I expected to debate what  Paul and what  ACTS  said about  BAPTISM !!

In Eph 4:5 is reads  One lord  , ONE  FAITH  , ONE  BAPTISM  and when checking the Greek text , Eph 4:5  does not  read  BAPTISM  but reads  BAPTISMA  , so check and see !!

βαπτισμα (baptisma) is the Greek word behind the English transliteration of baptism. So, yes, it reads as baptism.

Quote
By the way someone said that I probably was a  Calvinist ,  NO I AM NOT  , as I am a  DISPENSATIONALIST !!

Well, some Calvinists are also Dispensationalists. Those beliefs are not mutually exclusive.

Hey Dan P, one request: there is no need to begin every post with "Hi and". One Hi per thread is WAY adequate.

Quote from: dan p on Fri Mar 15, 2019 - 17:03:40Hi and I expected to debate what  Paul and what  ACTS  said about  BAPTISM !!

In Eph 4:5 is reads  One lord  , ONE  FAITH  , ONE  BAPTISM  and when checking the Greek text , Eph 4:5  does not  read  BAPTISM  but reads  BAPTISMA  , so check and see !!

Just one more verse so as not to  clutter with a long explanation ,  IF  when reading  1 Cor 15:29 and you all believe in WATER  BAPTISM  will you explain Why are they   BAPTIZED  FOR THE  DEAD !!

And in 1  Cor 10:2 and all were  BAPTIZED UNTO  Moses in the  CLOUD  and in the  SEA , how did that happen ??

By the way someone said that I probably was a  Calvinist ,  NO I AM NOT  , as I am a  DISPENSATIONALIST !!

Just want to see what you all believe , is that a  SIN   as this is a  debate section , right ??

You need to learn how to debate, for you are showing me that you have no clue or no gift to do so...or both. The best thing you can do is to clearly present what you believe to be the truth~ you and Gerhard Ebersöhn, then start with a point you wish to make and let us go from there. Lay it out exactly what you want to say and what you do not believe that most of the mainstream believers do believe that you consider being wrong.

Quote from: dan p on: Yesterday at 17:03:40By the way someone said that I probably was a  Calvinist ,  NO I AM NOT  , as I am a  DISPENSATIONALIST !!

Okay then please explain your position on dispensationalism that causes you to reject water baptism as essential since the death of Jesus Christ and him sitting on the throne of David ruling the house of Israel per Acts 2:31-36   

There start with~"Why I'm a dispensationalist"~that does not believe in water baptism for this present dispensation.

Quote from: Gerhard Ebersöhn on Thu Mar 14, 2019 - 19:03:23Thanks for publicly declaring your actual exclusive source of authority in all matters of faith and practical Christian living -- "'all that embrace the religion of Jesus Christ, believe... someone will test it... lay it on us. _I_ have a strong desire to seek...'".

NO THANKS, NOT FOR A SINGLE POINT OF SCRIPTURE-TRUTH!

Every person who follows Jesus Christ should have a strong desire to seek truth and know it and defend it. Is there anything wrong with that? Why are YOU here? Again I will say that ALL believers in the word of God believe in water baptism under the new covenant~ ALL without exception, and if anyone does not, then that makes them thinking more highly of their beliefs than the clear teachings of the word of God.

Quote from: The HOLY GHOSTActs 10:47-48a~"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized (IN WATER) in the name of the Lord. "

So you and Dan forbid water and we as Bible-believing Christians should not test you? Are you greater than Peter? You in your pride must think so. If you have something to say, then speak, you will be tested by believers. 1st John 4:1; Acts 17:11; etc.

Quote from: RB on Sat Mar 16, 2019 - 06:36:28
Every person who follows Jesus Christ should have a strong desire to seek truth and know it and defend it. Is there anything wrong with that? Why are YOU here? Again I will say that ALL believers in the word of God believe in water baptism under the new covenant~ ALL without exception, and if anyone does not, then that makes them thinking more highly of their beliefs than the clear teachings of the word of God.

Sigh ..........

"Every person who follows Jesus Christ should have a strong desire to seek truth and know it and defend it."

A statement of truth truly stated. But defend it?? You cannot be serious. HOW??? When attempting to do so you will be told you are so wrong that it can make you question your actual existence. (NO not me... I am sure of my beliefs)(At least not now... but in another time I was not so sure)

"Again I will say that ALL believers in the word of God believe in water baptism under the new covenant~ ALL without exception, and if anyone does not, then that makes them thinking more highly of their beliefs than the clear teachings of the word of God. "

All   But ALL  do not agree, as you well know. True, Someone who has posted in these threads is correct... but not all. Mine is also A statement of truth truly stated.

"ALL believers in the word of God believe in water baptism under the new covenant"

YOU cannot make this statement without clarification. And that clarification is what YOU, personally,  believe water baptism signifies. 

I am well aware that you are in disagreement with those who believe you must be water immersed in order to achieve salvation. I have been in many of those debates with you and many others.

There are such a wide variety of beliefs on Grace Centered and I know many believe this of me "then that makes them thinking more highly of their beliefs than the clear teachings of the word of God. "

I am beyond caring because when I keep seeing the same old put downs to other who do not share their specific beliefs , AND NOT ONE single person has been persuaded to change their minds.. ( give or take a tweaking or so)... I now just shake my head.

NO this is not directed at you RB but to every one who jumps in and and tries to pin another for not being in the same life boat with them.

Quote from: RB on Sat Mar 16, 2019 - 06:36:28
So you and Dan forbid water and we as Bible-believing Christians should not test you? Are you greater than Peter? You in your pride must think so. If you have something to say, then speak, you will be tested by believers. 1st John 4:1; Acts 17:11; etc.

I did not read, nor do I read that either used the word forbid.

I can turn your question back on all of you.

Are you greater than Peter???  The answer is no. But again, you all cannot even come to a consensus of the purpose of a water baptism.                                       

If it does not save then what is it for?

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Sat Mar 16, 2019 - 08:53:31All   But ALL  do not agree, as you well know.

Yes, there're differences in the mode; and purpose. etc.  of water baptism~yet ALL believe that water baptism is an essential doctrine in the religion of Jesus Christ, for many sound reasons. This is the point that I was defending.

Quote from: Dear ole sisI am well aware that you are in disagreement with those who believe you must be water immersed in order to achieve salvation

I believe that water baptism saves us, for the scriptures clearly teaches this truth, I just understand it a totally different sense than being saved/regenerated~I apply it totally to a "practical salvation" of KNOWLEDGE, of one having a true understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, versus being saved by our own works/obedience. This point has been hashed over several times.

Quote from: Dear ole sisNO this is not directed at you RB but to every one who jumps in and and tries to pin another for not being in the same life boat with them.

No problem~but many of God's elect are not on the same level of understanding and obedience, yet this has not one thing to do with them being born of God, or not.

When it comes to baptism, the method of application of the water and the purpose of any such application can be and often is debated.

However, that water is the physical medium for baptism, when it is being commanded of others to administer or submit to, is certainly beyond any reasonable debate.

Grab a cup of whatever and get comfortable. This is  a long reading.....

by REO White...copied and pasted in entirety here  from.  Then have at your disagreements.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/baptize-baptism/


Baptize, Baptism

Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Baptize, Baptism

Baptize, Baptism

The Greek root-word baptizein [baptivzw] means to plunge, immerse, sink; hence to wash; to be immersed, overwhelmed (in trouble). From Jewish rules of purification concerning ritual uncleanness the word gained a technical religious connotation implying "purification" from all that might exclude from God's presence.

When, at the diaspora, numerous Gentiles sought admission to Israel, the required public repentance and acceptance of Mosaic Law was accompanied by immersion in water, symbolizing and effecting religious, moral, and ritual cleansing from the defilements of paganism. Ancient Jewish discussions (echoed in 1 Cor 10:2 ) support a pre-Christian date for this proselyte baptism. This is why John's baptism needed no explanation, though his authority to perform it was challenged and his demand for purification of "children of Abraham" gave deep offense ( Matt 3:7-9 ; John 1:19-24 ).

John's practice added to proselyte baptism a still stronger emphasis on repentance, a firm background of moral teaching ( Luke 3:3 Luke 3:10-14 Luke 3:33 ), and initiation into a community ("John's disciples") preparing for Messiah's advent ( Luke 3:16-17 ).

The rite gained yet deeper meanings and greater authority from Jesus' example and experience. Why Jesus, being sinless, received a "baptism of repentance" is debatable. Some think Jesus was already aware of his role as Servant-Messiah, "numbered with the transgressors" ( Isa 53:12 ). But Mark 1:10-11 shows that assurance was finally given to him, in words from Psalm 2:7 and Isaiah 42:1, when he came up out of the water. Since Jesus held John's movement and practice to be "from heaven, " to identify himself with it was an act of "righteousness" which it was "fitting" to fulfill ( Matt 3:15 ; 21:25 ).

With assurance of Jesus' sonship came the enduement of the Holy Spirit for his task. Jesus never returned to the secluded life of Nazareth, but was "driven" by the Spirit into the wilderness, where his sonship was tested ( Matthew 4:3 Matthew 4:6 ) and his messianic work was prepared for.

The earlier Gospels do not record that Jesus himself baptized. Peter's invitation at Pentecost, Luke's record (in Acts) of fifteen baptisms, and the teaching of Paul, Peter, and John leave no doubt, however, that the first disciples believed that baptism possessed Christ's authority, as Matthew declares ( 28:19-20 ).

Luke's account of apostolic baptism assumes the rite's original association with repentance and remission ( Acts 2:38 ), with washing away sin ( 22:16 ), and with admission to the religious community. But his emphasis falls on baptism's new features. Though the gospel era dates from the baptism John preached ( 1:22 ; 10:37 ), Christian baptism, as conferring the Holy Spirit, is contrasted with John's (attributed to John in each Gospel, to Jesus at Acts 1:5 ; 11:16 ). This is emphasized at 18:25 and 19:1-7, and leads to rebaptism with water and the (exceptional) laying on of hands, before the Spirit is conferred. On the other hand, that Cornelius and his friends have received the Spirit becomes Peter's justification for their subsequent baptism ( 10:47 ; 11:17 ; cf. 8:14-17 ). No formal pattern of initiation is yet evident: Order varies with circumstances and preparation. But the association of water baptism with Spirit possession gave rise to the curious phrase "baptism in/with Holy Spirit" ( Mark 1:8 ; Acts 1:5 ).

In nine instances Luke represents baptism as the expected response to hearing and receiving the gospel. In four of these, kinsmen, close friends, or a household hear and respond; at 16:14-15 and 18:8 it is not stated that the household believed.

This response was to the gospel of Jesus, Son of God and Savior, who was crucified, rose again, forgives sins, bestows the Spirit, and will come again as Judge, all summarized succinctly but clearly in baptism in or into the name of Jesus as Christ, Lord, Son of God ( 8:37 ). "In the name" implied Jesus' authority for the rite; "into the name" (8:16; 19:5) indicated passing into Jesus' ownership, as one "redeemed." James 2:7 suggests an invocation of Jesus (to be present?); elsewhere, the irrevocable public confession of Christ as Lord ( Rom 10:9-13 ; 14:9 ; Php 2:11 ) marks the decisive commitment of the baptized to all the privileges and obligations of Christian life. Such baptismal confession became the germ of later creeds; the trinitarian formulation in Matthew 28:18-20 may well represent an early stage in credal development.

Reflection on the church's practice enriched further the theological and ethical significance of baptism, without varying its conditions or abandoning its original meaning.

Thus Paul, baptized within three days of his dramatic conversion, was evidently familiar with the need, despite the Pharisees' hostility toward it ( John 1:24-25 ). He gives it surprising prominence among essentials that unite the church ( Eph 4:4 ; the Eucharist is not included ). He administered, or authorized, baptism throughout his missions, yet would not boast of baptizing anyone and resented baptism being made a badge of partisanship ( 1 Co 1:13-17 ). And he assumes that baptism is understood in churches he had not visited (Rome, Colossae).

So, too, Paul assumes the original method of immersion ( Rom 6 ) and the accompanying confession of Christ's lordship ( Rom 10:9-13 ), which in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, 6:19-20, and Galatians 3:29, 5:24 clearly implies belonging to Christ. But he adds the idea of being "sealed" with the purchaser's mark, as property awaiting collection ( Rom 8:23 ; 2 Cor 1:22 ; Eph 4:30 ). This "good confession" ( 1 Tim 6:12 ) made at baptism responds to Paul's gospel of a suffering and risen Lord, presented through the gracious initiative of God and offered to faith, trust, and obedience. Paul insists that none are saved by their own good works, not even by the good work of baptism, but only by faith in Christ ( Rom 3:20 ; 4:4-5 ; Galatians 3:2 Galatians 3:11 ; Eph 2:8 ).

Paul retained, too, the original interpretation of baptism as entrance to the religious community: "We were all baptized into one body" ( 1 Cor 12:13 ). Some think that Paul means this by the phrase "baptized into Christ" ( Ga 3:27 ). They understand his description of the Christian as "in Christ" as an ecclesiological formula — the believer is baptized into "the whole Christ, " of which the risen Lord is head and the church is the body. Others interpret "in Christ" as a more individual, mystical relationship. Doubtless Paul would affirm that a true baptism introduced the convert to both privileges.

Again, Paul continues to emphasize the connection of baptism with enduement by the Spirit. It is "by the Spirit" that the baptized is initiated into the church, made to drink of one Spirit, and sealed for ultimate redemption. Paul regularly refers to the believer's reception of the Spirit in a tense signifying a certain point in time ("baptismal aorists"), speaks of baptism as being "washed in the Spirit" ( 1 Cor 6:11 ), and so can assume that everyone baptized "has" the Spirit ( Rom 8:9 ). Yet he nowhere argues this, as by recalling Jesus' baptismal enduement; he takes reception of the Spirit in baptism for granted and life under the rule of the Spirit as the norm of Christian experience ( Rom 8:2-5 ). Even so, the Spirit given at baptism is but an earnest, a down payment, guaranteeing immeasurable future blessings ( 2 Cor 1:22 ; 5:5 ).

Paul retains also the earliest interpretation of baptism as a washing away of sin, a "washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" as tit 3:5 describes it, a cleansing of the bride-church "by the washing of water with the Word" ( 1 Cor 6:11 ; Eph 5:26 ). The precise relation of water, Word, and Spirit in this cleansing experience is not defined; they are concomitant elements in a rite mediating to penitent hearts the divine remission.

The implied total change of attitude and relationship could be expressed metaphorically in two ways. The disrobing and rerobing metaphor of Colossians 3:8-14 (and six parallels) echoes the catechetical instruction already familiar to the first readers, and alludes directly to physical arrangements for baptismal "bathing." The second metaphor relates to circumcision, another "cleansing" required of Jewish proselytes, sometimes explained as "a putting off of the flesh." Paul assures the Gentile converts at Colossae that they do not need Jewish circumcision, as certain Judaists were insisting: "In [Christ] you were also circumcised in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism" ( Col 2:11-12 ). That is Paul's only reference to baptism's accomplishing what circumcision portrayed. He turns from it at once to describe the change that baptism signifies in the language he prefers: "buried with him in baptism raised with him through faith in the power of God."

This conception of the baptismal pool as a grave in which the pre-Christian self and its ways are buried once and for all and from which a new self rises to a new quality of living appears to be Paul's own. It looks back to one of Jesus' metaphors for repentance, self-crucifixion ( Mark 8:34 ; Gal 2:20 ; 6:14 ), and recognizes in baptism the moment when the convert does indeed, publicly, take up his or her cross, dying with Christ to self, to sin, and to the world, and rising with him to a life constantly renewed by his resurrection power ( Rom 6:1-11 ).

Such a death and resurrection with Christ is implied in accepting the gospel. In Romans, Paul repudiates the suggestion that if man is justified by faith alone, he may go on sinning so long as he goes on exercising faith. Paul replies that one cannot consistently accept Christ's death for one's sins and act as though sin did not matter. The repentant faith that grasps salvation commits the believer, inescapably, to a faith-union with Christ in which he or she dies with Christ to sin and rises with Christ to sin-renouncing life. This baptism expresses, illustrates, and finalizes.

Paul certainly means that, given repentance and faith, the act of baptism (which can never be undone) accomplishes all it represents commitment to the Lord's possession, admission to the church, enduement with the Spirit, remission and repudiation of sin. But Paul is equally clear that what is declared in baptism must be sustained thereafter. The baptized must obey their newfound Lord, be loyal to the church they join ( Php 2:1-4 ), walk in the Spirit and bear the Spirit's fruit ( Ga 5:16-25 ), count themselves dead to sin, not letting sin reign ( Rom 6:11-12 ; 8:5-8 ; Col 3:5-6 ). The baptized will rejoice greatly in what has happened, and maintain their baptismal attitude for the remainder of their lives, repenting deeply for every failure to do so.

Many scholars are persuaded that the basis of 1 Peter was a sermon to the newly baptized. Certainly the message is appropriately addressed for this purpose ( 1 Peter 1:14 1 Peter 1:23 ; 1 Peter 2:2-3 1 Peter 2:10 1 Peter 2:25 ), with suitable admonition to existing and incoming church members ( 5:1-5 ). It has much to say about the gospel, faith, new birth, purification, putting aside the flesh, the Spirit, admission to the community, reverencing Christ as Lord echoing much of the baptismal thinking already noticed.

Peter's new contribution ( 3:21-22 ) raises innumerable questions. The strong declaration "baptism that now saves you" recalls Mark 16:16 as well as Peter's "command" to baptize ( Acts 10:48 ). But the precise meaning needs care. It is as an appeal for a "clear conscience, " and through the triumphant resurrection and ascension of Christ above all "authorities, " that baptism achieves this"salvation."

The readers' situation is outlined in 3:13-17, 4:1-5, where again "a clear conscience" is urged and explained. The threat of persecution recurs in 4:12-19, and again is to be met by good social behavior. Against this background, baptism is no merely physical washing (as in Judaist, Essene, or pagan circles), but "the pledge of a good conscience towards God" and threatening civic authorities, ensuring innocent social conduct. This will not guarantee safety, as Christ's suffering shows ( 3:18 ); Christians must still arm themselves to suffer unjustly. But as he triumphed so can they, in his power and protection.

This unexpected exhortation is not unsupported. At Pentecost Peter had urged his hearers to save themselves by baptism from "this crooked generation." The Baptist had called his hearers to a baptism of repentance as the way of escape from a world under judgment. Now Peter cites Noah and his pitiful minority amid another evil generation; only eight souls saved by the flood from God's judgment upon that sinful age. In such far-ranging thoughts Peter extends the meaning of baptism to include a promise of social responsibility, and assured support and protection, now, in face of evils that threaten new converts, and ultimate victory. The baptized have enlisted in the eternal warfare of good and evil, but their Lord has already overcome.

So much has been made of John's "sacramentalism" that it is imperative to emphasize that for him, too, salvation comes through "believing" (over fifty times in John, 1 John) in the historic Christ (stressed fifteen times), "sent" by the loving initiative of God (over fifty references) to those chosen. The operation of the Spirit in baptism, and the implied entrance to the Christian community, are as clear in John as in the earlier sources ( John 3:5-6 ; 17 ).

But John does insist rather more strongly on the necessity of baptism ( John 3:5 ; 13:8-9 ), on Christ's authorizing baptism ( John 3:22 John 3:26 ; 4:1-2 ), and on the superiority of Christian baptism to that of the Baptist ( John 1:26-33 ; 3:25-30 ). By omitting any description of Jesus' baptism, John plays down any "memorial" or imitative baptism, in order to stress that in baptism it is the believer's experience that matters.

Without a new birth of water and Spirit, none can see or enter the kingdom or attain a spiritual nature. The healing of blindness by washing at Christ's command ( John 9:11 ) led the church later to call baptism "the enlightenment." John 19:34, so solemnly underlined, suggests that one purpose of Christ's death was precisely to provide the sacramental water and blood by which Christian experience would be transmitted and nourished. First John 5:6-12 is the converse: The continuing witness of the Spirit and the sacraments in the ongoing experience of the church testify (against Gnostic denials) that Christ did come in the flesh, and die, that we might live.

By the time John wrote, Christian baptism was long established and its spiritual significance and power fully understood. But there is no tension between John's sacramentalism and faith as the means of initiating Christian life. The sacrament is a faith-sacrament, rooted in history, and conveying what it represents not by magic but by divine action in believing and receptive hearts.

Christian baptism thus preserves the covenantal basis of biblical thought: God first offers in grace, human beings then respond in gratitude, deserving nothing. In the gospel, God offers through Christ forgiveness, life, the Spirit: the baptismal response, hallowed by Christ, expresses faith in the dying and rising Savior-Lord, and registers the resolve to die to former sinfulness and rise to new life. God does not ignore such aspiration: He fulfills for the believing heart all the promises of the gospel it is ready to receive.

R. E. O. White

And when you can read this also.....

The link will make some of you pause.... but read this , then check the link..  and then dispute it.

Does the word baptism mean immersion or sprinkling?
by Matt Slick

No, the word "baptism" does not always mean immersion.  There are several New Testament usages that clearly have different meanings.  Let's take a look.

Trouble 

Mark 10:38, "But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking for. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"

Mark 10:39, "And they said to Him, 'We are able.' And Jesus said to them, 'The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.'"

Luke 12:50, "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!"

These next verses speak of being baptized with the Spirit.  This isn't an immersion.  It is a pouring upon because the Holy Spirit is always poured upon a person.  If the Scriptures tell us that the Spirit is poured upon us and we are baptized with the Spirit, then it makes sense to say that baptism here means pouring upon.

Pour upon with the Holy Spirit

Isaiah 44:3, "I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring, and My blessing on your descendants."

Joel 2:28, And it will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind . . . "

Joel 2:29 "And even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."

Acts 2:17, "And it shall be in the last days," God says, "That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all mankind."

Acts 2:18, "Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit and they shall prophesy."

Baptized with the Holy Spirit

Matt. 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."


Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."




John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'

Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
Washings and Sprinkling

If that isn't enough to show that the word baptize does not always mean immersion, there are derivations of the word that also show it can mean washing and sprinkling.  But first, let's take a very short look at the word "baptize" in the Greek.

In Greek, nouns change their spelling depending on their usage.  In English, for example, we have the word actor, actors, actresses, actresses. These words are "cognates"; that is, they are related to each other in form.  The word "actor" changes form and with it plurality and gender is expressed, but the root of the word is "act."  The same thing goes with baptismois, baptismon, baptismous, etc.  The root of the word is bapt, and the word as a whole changes form depending on usage.  Here are a few cognates.

βαπτίζω, baptidzo, baptize (Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5; Luke 3:7; John 1:25; Acts 2:38; Rom. 6:3)

βαπτιστής, baptistas, baptist (Matt. 3:1; 14:2; Luke 7:20; 9:19)

βάπτισμα, baptisma, baptism (Matt. 3:7; Mark 1:4; Luke 12:50; Acts 1:22; Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:12)

βαπτίζοντες, baptizontes, baptizing (Matt. 28:19; John 1:25; 3:22; 4:1; 10:40)

βαπτισμῶν, baptismon, washings (Heb. 6:2)

βαπτισμοῖς, baptismois, washings (Heb. 9:10)

So, that is how Greek works.  The one word has different forms, the same as English: baptize, baptizing, baptized, baptist, etc.  This is important because we find a baptism cognate in two particular verses that cannot mean immersion but instead means washings and/or sprinkling.

Hebrews 6:2, "of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

The word "washings" is baptismon in the Greek.  Here is another.

Heb. 9:7-13, "but into the second only the high priest enters, once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.

8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed, while the outer tabernacle is still standing, which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,

10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings [baptismois], regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,

If you read the context, you will see that the "washings" (baptisms) refer to the Old Testament rituals which included the sprinkling of blood (v. 13).  That is the context.  This makes sense since anointings and atonements were done by sprinkling--not by immersion.

So, automatically saying that baptism means immersion is wrong.  Words mean what they mean in context; and sometimes it means trouble, pour upon, or washings.

https://carm.org/does-word-baptism-mean-immersion-or-sprinkling

  Be glad to explain all that I have written and a reminder that you did not write any thing about 1 Cor 15:29 , about  BAPTISM FOR  THE  DEAD   and ignorned 1 Cor 10:1 and 2  Where  Israel was  BAPTIZED UNTO  Moses in the  CLOUD  and in the  SEA ??

In Acts 2:36  the  CONTEXT  is  Israel  !!

And in verse 37 Israel was  PIERCED   through the  heart , and said to  Peter and the remaining  disciples   WHAT  WILL WE  DO ??

He is dead and than Peter is verse 38  and  Peter  SAID / PHEMI  ,  is in the  IMPERFECT TENSE   and means that Peter began here to preach BAPTISM  of  repentance to Israel  and   probably stopped by Acts 15  as    NOTHING   is spoken by Peter at all and drops from the seen !!

All can see that Peter used a different formula , be   baptized in the  name of  Jesus Christ ,   THAN  to  baptize in the name of the  FATHER , THE  SON  and  Holy Spirit !!

Then , this  BAPTISM  forgave them for the  CRUCIFIXION  of  the  Lord and  Christ / messiah !!

   This is the  NEAR  VIEW  as we know from  2 Cor 3:13-15 that Israel is  soon to be set aside , and  Isa 6  and  Luke 13:6-9  and many other passages say the same thing !!

Because  Israel is to be set aside , Christ raised  a  NEW  APOSTLE  with a different message Rom 16:25 and  26  1 Cor 9:17   and  Col 1:25 and 26  , a message HIDDEN  in Christ !!

When the  Rapture is done , then Rom 11:26   BAPTISM  will   begins and  in  Mark 16:16-18   BAPTISM will begin again , so you see I do believe in  BAPTISM  ,  and this  is the  FAR VIEW  !!

But the last verb in  Acts 2:38 is YE  SHALL  RECEIVE /LAMBANO   is in the  Greek  FUTURE  TENSE and that is why the it is the  FAR  VIEW in  Mark 16 !!

dan p