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First it must be noted that infinite God has a number of names and roles.

In the case of God the Son -- he is the "Son of man" in Daniel 7 and often in the Gospels.
He is also the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53
Unto us is given ... "the Prince of Peace" Isaiah 9
He is called our "High Priest" Hebrews 8:1
Creator of heaven and earth in John 1 and in Colossians 1 (And Heb 11:1)
He is the incarnate God in the Gospels

God the Holy Spirit appears in the form of a dove at the baptism of Christ, but surely God is not "a dove".

God the Holy Spirit appears as tongues of fire in Acts 2, but surely God is not a fiery hot gas in the shape of tongues, it is merely an appearance He takes for a specific purpose.

Michael as leader of the armies of heaven is another name and role that God the Son takes.

Revelation 12:7
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"

There is another verse in Daniel 8:25 where the "Prince of princes" is mentioned.

Daniel 8:25
"25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Again, the cosmic conflict is being played out with Christ on one side and the devil on the other, with humanity serving as the battlefield. "Prince of princes"  is similar to "Lord of lords" (Psalm 136:3), "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17), and "King of kings" (Revelation 19:16). All these are titles of deity. He is even referred to as "Messiah the Prince":

Daniel 9:25
"25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."


Daniel 10:13
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

Daniel 10:21
"But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."

Daniel 12:1
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Quote from: Hobie on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 03:03:34 Almighty God the Son, second person of the Godhead also called Michael

That's false and cannot be proven with the word of God. Michael is an angel NOT the Son of God. Angels are created ministering spirits ~created to be ministers for the elect of God. Hebrews 1:14.  Jesus is God's only begotten Son, begotten IN TIME around two thousand years ago according to the testimony of God. The only record that we should believe~per Luke 1:26-38. Believing as your religion teaches destroys many precious truths.

Not only was Jesus conceived in TIME, but he also is NOT the second person of the Godhead, but in his deity, as God, he is The I AM THAT I AM, the Evelasting Father of all things, a  scripture you quoted above but only applied his Sonship to it, which in his humanity HE WAS. See the WHOLE of Isaiah 9:6

The Jehovah Witnesses will agree with you on this perversion of God's truth, but God will give you no support to teach such a doctrine.

In the beginning, was God.... PERIOD. To add to that truth, one immediately destroys the  Divinity of the Son of God.  The only problem debating you folks is that I cannot get you folks into a serious debate, once you see you have no answers, which geneally is very quickly you head for the hills for cover.

QuoteAlmighty God the Son, second person of the Godhead also called Michael

Well would you not think that IF your doctrine was so, would not Isaiah 9:6 would have been a GREAT place to tell us that he is ALSO called Michael?

Quote from: Isaiah the prophet of GodIsaiah 9:6~"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

To add Michael to his name would make him a CREATED BEING whom Michael the archangel was. Jude 9~it was NOT Jesus contending for the body of Moses since he was NOT yet conceived and born, but it was Michael who was CREATED that contended with the Devil over the body of Moses. Jesus in his Divinity would NOT need to contend with such a pitiful spirit as Satan for one little word from the ALMIGHTY God would forever destroy Satan! BLASPHEMY to think otherwise!

Quote from: RB on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 04:41:15
That's false and cannot be proven with the word of God. Michael is an angel NOT the Son of God. Angels are created ministering spirits ~created to be ministers for the elect of God. Hebrews 1:14.  Jesus is God's only begotten Son, begotten IN TIME around two thousand years ago according to the testimony of God. The only record that we should believe~per Luke 1:26-38. Believing as your religion teaches destroys many precious truths.

Not only was Jesus conceived in TIME, but he also is NOT the second person of the Godhead, but in his deity, as God, he is The I AM THAT I AM, the Evelasting Father of all things, a  scripture you quoted above but only applied his Sonship to it, which in his humanity HE WAS. See the WHOLE of Isaiah 9:6

The Jehovah Witnesses will agree with you on this perversion of God's truth, but God will give you no support to teach such a doctrine.

In the beginning, was God.... PERIOD. To add to that truth, one immediately destroys the  Divinity of the Son of God.  The only problem debating you folks is that I cannot get you folks into a serious debate, once you see you have no answers, which geneally is very quickly you head for the hills for cover. Well would you not think that IF your doctrine was so, would not Isaiah 9:6 would have been a GREAT place to tell us that he is ALSO called Michael?  To add Michael to his name would make him a CREATED BEING whom Michael the archangel was. Jude 9~it was NOT Jesus contending for the body of Moses since he was NOT yet conceived and born, but it was Michael who was CREATED that contended with the Devil over the body of Moses. Jesus in his Divinity would NOT need to contend with such a pitiful spirit as Satan for one little word from the ALMIGHTY God would forever destroy Satan! BLASPHEMY to think otherwise!

So who was the angel of the Lord talking from the burning bush to Moses, and the angel of the Lord telling Hagar that Ishmael would be a great nation, and in Genesis 18 "three MEN" show up -- and later we are told that one is the Lord and the other two are really angels. There is no question but that God has the ability to appear in that form if He so chooses but that does not mean that God is a "mere man".

Exodus 3:2-6
2And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.  3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.


Genesis 16:10
And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

 
Genesis 16:11
And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.

Genesis 22:11
And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
 
Genesis 22:15
And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

Judges 2:1
And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

Judges 6:11-20

11 And there came an angel of the Lord, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
12 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him, and said unto him, The Lord is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the Lord be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt? but now the Lord hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
14 And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.
16 And the Lord said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.

Scripture makes it very clear.......

First of all why do SDAs make such an issue out of Michael being Jesus?   It is because Ellen White said so.  Take her out of the picture and they have no ground to stand on.   It is just like the Investigative Judgement, there is no proof of such a thing, but Ellen put her stamp of approval on it and the flock has to try to defend it.

Quote from: beam on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 08:36:54
First of all why do SDAs make such an issue out of Michael being Jesus?   It is because Ellen White said so.  Take her out of the picture and they have no ground to stand on.   It is just like the Investigative Judgement, there is no proof of such a thing, but Ellen put her stamp of approval on it and the flock has to try to defend it.

Beam ignorance is, as Beam ignorance does.

http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.com/2009/11/scholars-quotes-concerning-jesus-as.html

Scholars' Quotes Concerning Jesus as Michael the Archangel

From early Christian writings until now there have been many who understood Michael to be the archangel who became Jesus on earth. (For much more on the subject, see the ARCHANGEL category or use the search box above.)

Early Christian scholar Origen writes:

"There are certain creatures, rational and divine, which are called powers [spirit creatures, probably angels]; and of these Christ was the highest and best and is called not only the wisdom of God but also His power." - ANF 10:321-322.


Back in the early 1800's, Bible scholar Joseph Benson stated that the description of Michael as found in the Bible "manifestly points out the Messiah."　


Nineteenth-century Lutheran E. W. Hengstenberg agreed that "Michael is no other than Christ."
　

Similarly, theologian J. P. Lange, when commenting on Revelation 12:7, wrote: "We take it that Michael . . . is, from the outset, Christ in warlike array against Satan."


Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke)

Jude :9

"Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host. Nor is the word devil, as applied to the great enemy of mankind, ever found in the plural; there can be but one monarch of all fallen spirits. Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders; the devil, great dragon, or Satan, is head of all the diabolic orders. When these two hosts are opposed to each other they are said to act under these two chiefs, as leaders; hence in Revelation 12:7, it is said: MICHAEL and his angels fought against the DRAGON and his angels.　 The word Michael　 lakym, seems to be compounded of ym mi, who, k ke, like, and la El, God; he who is like God; hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."

The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: Revelation

"12:7 And there was war in heaven: 14 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 

"(14) Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod...."

John Gill, A Body of Doctrinal Divinity, Book 7 Chapter 5:

"1b2. Another prophecy in Daniel 12:1-3 respects the second and personal coming of Christ; for he is meant by Michael, who is "as God", as his name signifies, equal to him; the 'great prince,' the prince of the kings of the earth, and the head of all principalities and powers."

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Daniel 12:1 

"Ver. 1. 

And at that time shall Michael stand up,.... The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ;" 

And even trinitarian Bible scholar W. E. Vine ("recognized as one of the world's foremost [Bible] Greek scholars") tells us that this "voice of the archangel" (1 Thess. 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ"! - p. 64, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia:

"The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, p. 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.

Protestant Reformer John Calvin said regarding "Michael" in its occurrence at Daniel 12:1:

"I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

John Wesley:

Chapter XII

A promise of deliverance, and of a joyful resurrection, ver. 1 - 4. A conference concerning the time of these events, ver. 5 - 7. An answer to Daniel's enquiry, ver. 8 - 13. For the children - The meaning seems to be, as after the death of Antiochus the Jews had some deliverance, so there will be yet a greater deliverance to the people of God, when Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation. A time of trouble - A the siege of Jerusalem, before the final judgment. The phrase at that time, probably includes all the time of Christ, from his first, to his last coming.

Wesley on Daniel 10:21: "Michael - Christ alone is the protector of his church, when all the princes of the earth desert or oppose it."

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758):

Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. 2, Ch. 1, "Angels":

"II. When Lucifer rebelled and set up himself as a head in opposition to God and Christ, and drew away a great number of the angels after him, Christ, the Son of God, manifested himself as an opposite head, and appeared graciously to dissuade and restrain by his grace the elect angels from hearkening to Lucifer's temptation, so that they were upheld and preserved from eternal destruction at this time of great danger by the free and sovereign distinguishing grace of Christ. Herein Christ was the Saviour of the elect angels, for though he did not save them as he did elect men from the ruin they had already deserved, and were condemned to, and the miserable state they were already in, yet he saved them from eternal destruction they were in great danger of, and otherwise would have fallen into with the other angels. The elect angels joined with him, the glorious Michael, as their captain, while the other angels hearkened to Lucifer and joined with him, and then was that literally true that was fulfilled afterwards figuratively. 

Rev. xii. 'When there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.' "

William L. Alexander, Doctor of Divinity, stated:

There seems good reason for regarding Michael as the Messiah. Such was the opinion of the best among the ancient Jews.... With this all the Bible representations of Michael agree. He appears as the Great Prince who standeth for Israel (Dan. xii. I), and he is called "the Prince of Israel" (Dan. x. 21)--William L. Alexander, ed., A Cyclopedia Of Biblical Literature, originally edited by John Kitto, 3d ed. (Edinburgh: A & C Black, 1886). vol. 3, p. 158.

"The two passages in the New Testament, in which Michael is mentioned, serve to confirm the result already arrived at. That the Michael referred to in Rev. xii. 7 is no other than the Logos, [the Word - the Son of God] has already been proved in my commentary upon that passage." —Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg, Christology of the Old Testament and a Commentary on the Messianic Predictions, 1836-9, Vol. IV, pp. 304-5 (in the T. & T. Clark publication; p. 269 in the Kregel publication).

Brown's Dictionary of the Bible 

on the words 'Michael' and 'Angel' says, that both these words do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms that Christ is the Archangel.

Wood's Spiritual Dictionary 

teaches nearly, if not exactly, the same on this subject that Brown's does. The former was a Calvinist, the latter a Methodist.

Butterworth, Cruden, and Taylor in their concordances, assert that Michael and Angel are both names of Christ.

Guyse in his Paraphrase on the New Testament, on Rev. xii. 7, acknowledges that many good expositors think that Christ is signified by Michael; and also gives it as his opinion.


Thomas Scott, in his notes on the Bible, says the Angel that appeared to Hagar when she fled from her mistress, one of the three Angels that appeared to Abraham in the plains of Mamre, the Angel that appeared to Moses in the bush, and the Angel that spoke to the Jews at Bochim, was Jesus Christ: and also asserts that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ. See Gen. xvi. 9, 10. Chap. xviii throughout. Exod. iii. 2-7. Judg. ii. 1-5, Dan x. 13, 21. Chap. xii. 1, Rev. xii. 7.


Highly respected trinitarian Bible scholar, Dr. E. F. Scott, Emeritus Professor at the Union Theological Seminary, wrote:

"The author of Hebrews ... thinks of [Jesus] as an angel, whom God had exalted above all others, investing him with his own majesty and calling him by the name of Son." - p. 726, An Encyclopedia of Religion, 1945 ed.


And, again, the very trinitarian The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible tells us that at this time the Jewish expectation was that the Christ was

"a pre-existent, heavenly angelic being who, at the end of time, will appear at the side of God as judge of the world [see Acts 7:55-56]." - p. 364, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, 1962.


"Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." - p. 39, Today's Dictionary of the Bible (trinitarian), Bethany House Publ., 1982


"Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation." - p. 40, Smith's Bible Dictionary (trinitarian), Hendrickson Publ.


"ANGEL OF THE LORD, ... is represented in Scripture as a heavenly being sent by God to deal with men as his personal agent and spokesman [`word'] .... In the NT [which trinitarians agree explains and amplifies the OT] there is no possibility of the angel of the Lord being confused with God. .... mostly when appearing to men he is recognized as a divine being, even though in human form, and is [sometimes] addressed as God" - p. 38, New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale House (trinitarian), 1984 printing.


"The Angel of the LORD.... Traditional [from 2nd century A. D. (at least)] Christian interpretation has held that this `angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One [Jehovah] who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7 in the highly trinitarian The NIV Study Bible by Zondervan Publishing, 1985.

The Word is God.

Michael is an angel, a created being.  How can Michael be God?  Even his name, who is like God? exhibits that.

Don't belittle the Word.

Quote from: piecrust on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:14:51
The Word is God.

Michael is an angel, a created being.  How can Michael be God?  Even his name, who is like God? exhibits that.

Don't belittle the Word.

Jesus Christ is the word of God. He is and was also the Angel of the buring bush, "and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isa 9:6). He was and is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Son of man, Son of God, High Priest, stone, Lamb, I am, King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior, Messiah, The way, The truth, The life, The bread of life, The door, The rock, and I'm sure many that I have not thought of. None of these titles belittle our Savior but rather expound upon His infinite role in the revelation of God.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as the rest of us are as well. No one believing Michael was a title belonging to the pre-incarnate Christ, seeks to belittle Jesus Christ simply by believing such.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 20:14:12
Jesus Christ is the word of God. He is and was also the Angel of the buring bush, "and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isa 9:6). He was and is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Son of man, Son of God, High Priest, stone, Lamb, I am, King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior, Messiah, The way, The truth, The life, The bread of life, The door, The rock, and I'm sure many that I have not thought of. None of these titles belittle our Savior but rather expound upon His infinite role in the revelation of God.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as the rest of us are as well. No one believing Michael was a title belonging to the pre-incarnate Christ, seeks to belittle Jesus Christ simply by believing such.

Yes, Jesus is the 'I AM'.

JESUS IS the beginning and the end.

Jesus is Elohim. 

Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 20:14:12
J No one believing Michael was a title belonging to the pre-incarnate Christ, seeks to belittle Jesus Christ simply by believing such.

Why would the Word have the title of an angel?  The Word is God.  The angel isn't.

Quote from: Hobie on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 07:08:16So who was the angel of the Lord talking from the burning bush to Moses, and the angel of the Lord telling Hagar that Ishmael would be a great nation,

Well, in your question you tell us who it is....

Quote from: Hobie on: Yesterday at 07:08:16So who was the angel of the Lord talking from the burning bush

It was an angel. You are assuming that since Jesus Christ as the Son of God is eternal then the voice that spoke from the burning bush was Jesus as the Son of God. This is the beginning of your many errors that would eventually make all the manner in which God spoke in time past to be Jesus whom your false prophetess called Michael. It could ONLY be true of his deity, but not his SONSHIP. The Holy Ghost said this:

QuoteHebrews 1:1,2~"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Jesus as Michael DID NOT Speak in time past~God, did in divers manners speak unto the father by the prophets and by angels, ONE of whom was Michael the archangel~ small "a" BTW in Jude 9!!

Your doctrine is base on the assumption that Jesus as the Son of God is eternal in his SONSHIP, which he is NOT, ONLY in his divinity as being the I AM THAT I AM. God appeared at various times in the Old Testament, thus your religion believes the Son must be eternal (Genesis 32:30). Paul teaches that Christ was with Israel in the wilderness (Ist Corinthians 10:4,9). Was it His body? Why then did Daniel prophesy that Christ (Messiah) was yet 483 years away (Daniel 9:25-26)? Jesus Christ is the human nature in union with the full Godhead. Did this body preexist? Does God also have an eternal, burning bush (Exodus 3:1-6) and an eternal dove (Matthew 3:16-17)? You answer those question and then you MUST confess appearances of God apart from Jesus Christ are temporary similitudes (Numbers 13:8; John 1:18). These were angels. Did Jacob wrestle with God or an angel, or an angel representing God? Now, let us look one more time at Hebrews 1:1,2, shall we?

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSTHebrews 1:1,2~"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God is NOW speaking unto us THROUGH his SON called JESUS, he DID NOT speak unto the fathers through a son called Michael for Jesus was NOT conceived and born until the record of Luke 1:26-38 and to believe otherwise is to believe a lie. The angel of the Lord in the OT were angels representing God. That's the very reason why they were created to be MINISTERING spirits to do God's bidding.

Quote from: Hobie on: Yesterday at 07:08:16in Genesis 18 "three MEN" show up -- and later we are told that one is the Lord and the other two are really angels.

They were ALL THREE angels with one having a higher position than the others, NOTHING MORE and their words were AS THOUGH God was speaking.

Jesus Christ was begotten about 2100 years later and up until that time God DID NOT HAVE A SON CALLED Jesus, and certainly not Michael! Your doctrine destroys the deity of the Son of God. If you want to go deeper and prove this to be so, let us do it.

Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen. 15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;......
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Quote from: Hobie on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 03:03:34
First it must be noted that infinite God has a number of names and roles.

In the case of God the Son -- he is the "Son of man" in Daniel 7 and often in the Gospels.
He is also the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53
Unto us is given ... "the Prince of Peace" Isaiah 9
He is called our "High Priest" Hebrews 8:1
Creator of heaven and earth in John 1 and in Colossians 1 (And Heb 11:1)
He is the incarnate God in the Gospels

God the Holy Spirit appears in the form of a dove at the baptism of Christ, but surely God is not "a dove".

God the Holy Spirit appears as tongues of fire in Acts 2, but surely God is not a fiery hot gas in the shape of tongues, it is merely an appearance He takes for a specific purpose.

Michael as leader of the armies of heaven is another name and role that God the Son takes.

Revelation 12:7
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,"

There is another verse in Daniel 8:25 where the "Prince of princes" is mentioned.

Daniel 8:25
"25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Again, the cosmic conflict is being played out with Christ on one side and the devil on the other, with humanity serving as the battlefield. "Prince of princes"  is similar to "Lord of lords" (Psalm 136:3), "God of gods" (Deuteronomy 10:17), and "King of kings" (Revelation 19:16). All these are titles of deity. He is even referred to as "Messiah the Prince":

Daniel 9:25
"25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."


Daniel 10:13
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

Daniel 10:21
"But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."

Daniel 12:1
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Nonsense. 

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 10:54:54Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

We believe and teach that Jesus, in his complex nature as both the Son of Man and  Son of God, is equal to God in his divinity being the only begotten Son of God. But this has not one thing to do with him being the Son of God BEFORE his conception and birth that is recorded for us in Luke chapters one and two.

As far as Genesis 22; and Exodus 3, we have already said that they were angels who were created to be God's ministering spirit to do his bidding and their words were AS GOD WAS SPEAKING with the same authority. After all~all we need to do is read the NT and see this to be so....need help? I have some scriptures for your consideration.

QuoteMatthew 2:13~And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until "I" bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

This scriptures ALONE destroy your doctrine! This angel OF THE LORD WAS NOT JESUS, for he was a young child that the angel of God was seeking to protect from Herod.  There are more if you need more help, but not sure if more would convince people following a false prophetess.

Quote from: RB on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 14:37:19We believe and teach that Jesus, in his complex nature as both the Son of Man and  Son of God, is equal to God in his divinity being the only begotten Son of God. But this has not one thing to do with him being the Son of God BEFORE his conception and birth that is recorded for us in Luke chapters one and two.

As far as Genesis 22; and Exodus 3, we have already said that they were angels who were created to be God's ministering spirit to do his bidding and their words were AS GOD WAS SPEAKING with the same authority. After all~all we need to do is read the NT and see this to be so....need help? I have some scriptures for your consideration. This scriptures ALONE destroy your doctrine! This angel OF THE LORD WAS NOT JESUS, for he was a young child that the angel of God was seeking to protect from Herod.  There are more if you need more help, but not sure if more would convince people following a false prophetess.

Just as I said:

Quote from: RBThe only problem debating you folks is that I cannot get you folks into a serious debate, once you see you have no answers, which generally is very quickly you head for the hills for cover.

I have more, do not run for the hills stay and debate your post. See ALSO:

Quote from: The HOLY GHOSTMatthew 1:20-23~But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

The angel of the LORD was NOT Jesus in his SONSHIP as the second person (as you called him) of the Trinity for he was in his mother's womb! You have a major problem here to deal with, so what do you do? NOTHING! YET, you keep teaching heresies! One more for now~

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSTMatthew 2:19-21~"But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel."

HOW PRECIOUS is the word of God! I love it! The scriptures shut the mouths of men who twist and pervert scriptures to support their OWN teachings. The angel of the LORD appears NOT to Mary, (sorry RCC, your worship of Mary is a lie) but to the head of the woman~the MAN, and told Joesph what to do.  This angel of the LORD was NOT Jesus in his SONSHIP~ for he was a young child most likely still was breastfeeding, or not far removed from it.

Your doctrine taught to you by a false prophetess cannot be supported with the word of TRUTH. If you keep believing in her many lies then you should be deceived, and may even die in your sins since many of them are DAMNABLE HERESIES~but God will be your final judge concerning such a terrible and final condemnation.

Quote from: piecrust on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 01:03:52
Why would the Word have the title of an angel?  The Word is God.  The angel isn't.

Your argument is with scripture, not me. I didn't apply the word angel and God to the same being, scripture has.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jun 22, 2019 - 10:46:41
Your argument is with scripture, not me. I didn't apply the word angel and God to the same being, scripture has.

Please quote the scripture.

Quote from: piecrust on Mon Jun 24, 2019 - 23:31:07
Please quote the scripture.

Read the scriptures already supplied.

Quote from: Amo on Tue Jun 25, 2019 - 20:07:50
Read the scriptures already supplied.

Your refusal to quote the scripture indicates it doesnt really say what you want it to say.  Please quote the scripture.

Michael the archangel as a former name / title of Christ is simply a vestige of the SDA Pioneer and Ellen White's anti-Trinitarianism. They simply can't escape this given the amount she wrote about it. 

Quote from: piecrust on Wed Jun 26, 2019 - 04:00:40
Your refusal to quote the scripture indicates it doesnt really say what you want it to say.  Please quote the scripture.

No. Many scriptures have been supplied, you have not addressed any if them but with on liner I say so's. Address and explain what you think they mean or not, then we can move on.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun Jun 30, 2019 - 18:46:01
Michael the archangel as a former name / title of Christ is simply a vestige of the SDA Pioneer and Ellen White's anti-Trinitarianism. They simply can't escape this given the amount she wrote about it.

It seems you suffer from Beam ignorance syndrome.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jul 06, 2019 - 09:36:33
No. Many scriptures have been supplied, you have not addressed any if them but with on liner I say so's. Address and explain what you think they mean or not, then we can move on.

Please quote the scripture

Quote from: piecrust on Sun Jul 07, 2019 - 02:30:29
Please quote the scripture

No. Someone who only ever gives one or two liner responses, deserves the same in return. If you won't add any depth to your posts, why should any go into depth with you?

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jul 07, 2019 - 11:20:59
No. Someone who only ever gives one or two liner responses, deserves the same in return. If you won't add any depth to your posts, why should any go into depth with you?

You don't need a long respnse to give me scripture.  Sounds to me like the little boy that took his bat and ball home because the game wasn't going the way he wanted.

Quote from: piecrust on Sun Jul 07, 2019 - 21:51:41
You don't need a long respnse to give me scripture.  Sounds to me like the little boy that took his bat and ball home because the game wasn't going the way he wanted.

Several scriptures have already been supplied on this thread. You have responded to none of them. Explain what you think of them, then perhaps more will be produced. Why should one contributing so little, expect so much in response? You know what they say, put up, or shut up. Yes of course, everyone who will not respond to you, is just a child taking their toys home cause they are not getting what they wanted.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jul 14, 2019 - 14:16:47
Several scriptures have already been supplied on this thread. You have responded to none of them. Explain what you think of them, then perhaps more will be produced. Why should one contributing so little, expect so much in response? You know what they say, put up, or shut up. Yes of course, everyone who will not respond to you, is just a child taking their toys home cause they are not getting what they wanted.

If they have been quoted repeat them.  Show me which ones you are referring to.

Not a mind reader here.

Quote from: soterion on Sun Jun 16, 2019 - 13:51:08Nonsense. 

We have to go by what Gods Word shows us, not just opinion and assume we know of ourselves..

Michael the Archangel is NOT nor has ever been Christ. This is simply left over heresy from back when the SDA Church was unashamed to loudly promulgate blatant heresy.

1st,
Both Scripture and Sacred Tradition of both the Christian Church and Judiasm assert that there was MORE than 1 Archangel.

2nd,
For SDA's this is a real paradox because Ellen White gloated that there were MANY Archangels.

SO, according to Jewish Sacred Tradition & Scriptures, Christian Sacred Tradition & Scriptures AND even Ellen White - there are NUMEROUS Archangels.

In Ellen's fleshy mind Michael the Archangel WAS A BEING separate from The Flesh Father who was also a separate BEING. Michael could have messed the bed, sinned and lost His Salvation - had this happened Ellen gloated that Christ would have been eternally terminated and thus become as if He never existed.

This isn't God, it's a shake-N-Bake god created by a cultist.

Quote from: Hobie on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 07:08:16So who was the angel of the Lord talking from the burning bush to Moses, and the angel of the Lord telling Hagar that Ishmael would be a great nation, and in Genesis 18 "three MEN" show up -- and later we are told that one is the Lord and the other two are really angels. There is no question but that God has the ability to appear in that form if He so chooses but that does not mean that God is a "mere man".

Exodus 3:2-6
2And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.  3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.


Genesis 16:10
And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
 
 
Genesis 16:11
And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.

Genesis 22:11
And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
 
Genesis 22:15
And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

Judges 2:1
And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

Judges 6:11-20

11 And there came an angel of the Lord, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
12 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him, and said unto him, The Lord is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the Lord be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt? but now the Lord hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
14 And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.
16 And the Lord said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.

Scripture makes it very clear.......

In the beginning was the angel of the Lord,
and the angel of the Lord was with God,
and the angel of the Lord was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

I do believe this defeats your theology.

QuoteChachynga said:
In the beginning was the angel of the Lord,
and the angel of the Lord was with God,
and the angel of the Lord was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

I do believe this defeats your theology.

I think that was among the most astute things I've ever read in response to an assertion that Christ wasn't God [& was Michael the Archangel]!
 

If I could al a mode your above excellent point with anything it would be

Matthew 2:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Christ was, at that point, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin was He not??? Hobie, Amo?

Quote from: chachynga on Wed Jan 24, 2024 - 05:56:20In the beginning was the angel of the Lord,
and the angel of the Lord was with God,
and the angel of the Lord was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

I do believe this defeats your theology.

No more than -

In the beginning was the Prince of Peace,

In the beginning was the Lion of the tribe of Judah

Son of man

Son of God

The Lamb

I am

King of kings

Messiah

The Truth

The Life

The Rock

Or one of many other titles applied to Christ in the bible.

So Chachynga or Cathlodox, who was the angel of the Lord of scripture who was God, if not Christ? Chachynga playing with the word of God by changing words of scripture around, does not prove anything, or negate the testimony of scripture regarding an angel it identifies as God.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Fri Jan 26, 2024 - 19:01:20I think that was among the most astute things I've ever read in response to an assertion that Christ wasn't God [& was Michael the Archangel]!
 

If I could al a mode your above excellent point with anything it would be

Matthew 2:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Christ was, at that point, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin was He not??? Hobie, Amo?

Are you playing with words as well Cathlodox? What version of the scriptures did you quote above? All the versions I looked at said "an angel of the Lord", not the angel of the Lord.

Amo,

It's from the KJV - the version that finds the most favor among Traditional / Historic SDA's.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Fri Jan 26, 2024 - 22:40:24Amo,

It's from the KJV - the version that finds the most favor among Traditional / Historic SDA's.

I see the problem. You wrote Mathew 2:20, but you meant 1:20. I looked at 2:20, and presumed you were referring to verse 19 which states -

Mat 2:19  But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

You put the wrong verse, I rushed through your post and didn't notice.

Yes, this is quite a mystery. Just like the mystery of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Not explainable at present. Are you suggesting that Jesus who is God, ceased to exist as such when in the womb of Mary, and therefore could not have spoken to Joseph? As if you, or I, or anyone could know and or comprehend such things of or about God, and the particulars of things presently far beyond us? I suppose you do, which is why your church has had the audacity in the past to force her views upon others concerning such things, such as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Jan 26, 2024 - 21:56:39Are you playing with words as well Cathlodox? What version of the scriptures did you quote above? All the versions I looked at said "an angel of the Lord", not the angel of the Lord.

Greek Interlinear and the Peshitta both say "AN" angel