Christian Forums

Note to reader: It's the hopes of this poster that viewers understand and apply the truths of Israel's eschatology to their faith; and it is also acknowledged concerning the suspicion that most will find this doctrine unfamiliar, and so, initially difficult to understand or lacking interest. God bless us to know and receive all the truths of His Word!



It's becoming more obvious all the time that Christendom in general has yet to understand God's permanent union with His people Israel. No doubt there will be confusion when thinking that believers of God among the Israelites are "cast away" when Scripture states otherwise. Some may, and understandably so due to its reading, direct attention to Romans 11:15 and see a contradiction to verse 2, but as it is often used, this is merely a hyperbolic expression giving the sense that "what if they were cast away," or "even if they were cast away." The reply in verse 15 is that the "receiving of them" would be "but life from the dead"; but verse 26 is the strongest proponent of this doctrine, unless one is bereft of conceiving the errant teaching (which some have) that all Christians now represent Israel. The most important instruction here concerns the truth that in the time of God's rejection concerning fellowship with Israel, there is a copious presence of Scripture attesting to His promise that He "will not forsake His people" (1Sa 12:22).

Even Protestantism has not understood this all important truth that concerns Jewish believers in God (but not yet in Christ - Jn 14:1); of which faith that can never be said concerning the majority of the world).  Many within Christendom have gone as far as to devise an erroneous name for an erroneous system—Judeo-Christian! This also parallels the false concept that Israel is now all who are Christian, which greatly confuses the truths within God's Word concerning Israel's eschatology.

"Judaism is considered by religious Jews to be the expression of the covenant that God established with the Children of Israel" (Wikipedia). This is the first Covenant between God and the nation of Israel through Moses, the man of God. I say "first" because there will be a last and "New Covenant" with them, which when established will be eternal and solely between them and God; and which will be separate from the present and eternal Covenant between God and His Son (Christianity, which is nowhere written or said to be between God and man, but for man).

This doctrine of the two eternal peoples of God was revealed (which is seemingly the most discrete doctrine in the Word of God) after Christ's coming through the Apostle Paul's writings in unison with OT prophecies concerning it. Of course, what one may conclude concerning these teachings has no bearing on any essential doctrine of salvation; and myself, I believe its teachings will be mostly unknown and difficult to understand until the Millennium.
NC






The Lord Jesus Christ is the center of the counsels of God, and hence of prophecy, which treats of the earth and His government of it for His own glory. Such is the importance of Israel, from whom, as according to the flesh, came Christ who is over all, God blessed forever! They are His people by a choice and calling which cannot fail in the end, though there may be and has been a fall and a long continued disowning of them in God's righteous judgment of their apostasy (which I think is not an apostasy of Israel because they never have accepted the truths concerning Christ to depart from it—NC). But mercy will restore them ere long, humbly, joyfully, welcoming the Messiah they have long rejected.

This has been feebly seen, nay, generally denied, throughout Christendom for ages. Scarcely any error is more patent throughout the Fathers (so called—NC) than the substitution of the Church for Israel in all their system of thought. Every Father, whose writings have come down to us, is a witness of the same allegorizing interpretations, not only the Alexandrian school of Clement and Origen, but Justin Martyr, Iranaeus and Pseudo-Barnabas. The Latins followed in the same wake, not Augustine and Ruffinus and Jerome only, but Tertullian, Cyprian and Lactantius.

Not one held the restoration of Israel to their land, converted nationally (Isa 45:17; Rom 11:26—NC); the millenarian portion expected that the risen saints would reign with Christ in Jerusalem rebuilt, adorned and enlarged, not that the Jews should be restored and blessed in the land. The medieval writers naturally adopted the same view. So did the Reformers without exception, as far as I am aware. All fell into the error of putting the Church into the place of Israel, and so of leaving no room for His earthly people, besides His heavenly saints and glorified Bride.

They neglected the warning of the Apostle Paul, and assumed that the Jewish branches were broken off that the Gentiles might be grafted in, and forever (not into the earthly place but the "heavenly places - Eph 2:6"—NC). They did not take heed to the prophetic word, as Peter exhorts (2Pe 1:19), but applied systematically the predictions of Israel's blessings in the last days to the Christian Church. Still less did they appreciate the day dawning or the day star rising in their heart. Catholics, Protestants, had no real light, no spiritual intelligence, as to the hopes of Israel (Act 28:20 – God's eternal earthly representatives—NC) as distinct from those of Christians (heavenly representatives—NC).

Is it not as solemn as it is startling to see thus beyond just question the immediate, universal and lasting departure of the Christian profession from prophetic truth? The divine glory in Christ for all things in heaven and on earth being the blessed and revealed purpose of God (Eph 1:10); and when this is forgotten, false hopes spring up. Man, self, becomes the end, instead of the Lord Jesus; the true light is lost, and darkness ensues in the just retribution of God. The effort to make the Church all, instead of preserving the true dignity of the Church as the heavenly spouse of the Lord Jesus, lowers her to the position of earthly Israel, a people reigned over, not reigning with Him, His inheritance, not heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ (it's been said that Israel has a priesthood, but Christians are a priesthood - 1Pe 2:5, 9; Rev 1:6; 5:10).

The future acts of God as revealed in the prophetic Word are the expressions of the principles on which He will govern the world; and so His Word is the means by which alone we learn these principles fully. If we fail to ascertain them thus, we form our own thoughts of that which God gave us, prophecy whereby we know His mind. Our business is to gather of what and whom God speaks; and no greater delusion can befall us than to imagine that, because all Scripture is for our profit all must be about ourselves.

The purpose of God as to the Jews is in its place as truly the object of faith as His counsels concerning the Church (God knowing Israel's future unbelief concerning Christ ordained them to be under heaven, and the believer's place in Christ with Him in heaven—NC). Thus, the apprehension of His various ways for glorifying His Son is essential to real understanding of His Word. Here, as everywhere, a single eye is essential. With the Lord Jesus before us, the whole body will not fail to be full of light (Mat 6:22).

Is not this to take away Scripture from the Christian? Quite the contrary! To understand it according to God is the truest and richest gain; to misapply it to ourselves in Gentile conceit is ruinous (concerning our understanding—NC). Yet there is no instruction in the past or future history of Israel as revealed in the Bible which is not for, though not about, the Church (because the entirety of Scripture "is profitable" - 2Ti 3:1—NC). That such scriptures concerning the Jew may have been written so as to bear an analogous application to the Gentiles is not denied (e.g. God bringing both peoples to Himself—NC); but the application calls for the utmost caution and a "right dividing of the "Word of Truth" (2Ti 2:15), because each economy or dispensation has its own peculiarities, and in not a few things there are confessedly decided and intended contrasts.

It is an error therefore to read the Church in Judah and Israel, Zion and Jerusalem; and the effect of this alchemy which the Fathers originated (as I believe most were Gnostics, which number well more than those listed in the second paragraph of this article—NC) and handed down to both popery and Protestantism alike have been not only to rob Israel of their proper hope, but to lower that of the Church incalculably.

Yet no maxim of interpretation can compare with this most misleading identification for importance, antiquity, or widespread reception. Since the Apostles, perhaps beyond every other tradition, has this been accepted always, everywhere, and by all. Fathers, Romanists, Reformers, have alike applied it habitually in their comments, as well as practice.

But these are points of detail, all of which together are a trifle compared with the one grand principle which effaces Israel from prophecy and instills the Church in their stead. What can be thought of the judgment that could overlook an error so transcendent, vitiating all sound exposition of both Old Testament and New from Genesis to Revelation?

One can account for it by two considerations: first, a quite superficial estimate of the evil involved in this old and general error; secondly, a very exaggerated feeling against those who looked for a personal Antichrist among the Jews and a future revival of the Roman Empire before the age ends, lest it should weaken Protestantism in the face of the popish reawakening in our day.

There is no adequate sense of wrong which has been already done the truth for nearly eighteen centuries (this article written circa 1830's) and the darkening influence which Judaizing the Church has wrought far and wide in Christendom, among the Orientals, Greeks, Latins, as well as Protestants more recently, throughout all its history save the first century.

The feverish doubt caused by a few fanciful essayists like Drs. Maitland, Todd, Burgh, Messrs, Tyso, Dodsworth and the like, were slight indeed compared with the original paralysis in the distinct perception of the Christian's heavenly privileges in union with the Lord Jesus Christ on high, or in the just recognition of God's fidelity to Israel. What an indignity religion puts on every person of the Godhead alike, on the grace and truth which came by Jesus Christ, when it drags souls back to the dread distance of Judaism (the Law was a great "veil" between God and Israel, due to its right to condemn via revealing Israel's sins to them—NC).

— Wm Kelly (1821 – 1906)

+1

Thank you.

If I could I would make this a sticky.

Thanks for the encouraging reply, and God bless!

Premillennialism??

Hi Netchaplain,

This quote from Mr. Kelley is a clear-cut case of someone who has absolutely no concept of the "mystery of God", as revealed by Paul.

He has no understanding of the "ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPHERD" taught by Christ in John 10:16. "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold" (Meaning that up to that point in time, there had been two folds with God's sheep in them.) "Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPHERD."  Truly, the only real division there has ever been between members of mankind as a whole is whether they are a SHEEP or a GOAT: a SON or a BASTARD: WHEAT or TARES.  And the vast majority of the harvest is made of wheat - not tares.

Neither did Mr Kelly understand the "ONE NEW MAN" concept taught by Paul, since he seems  determined to continually divide history into "two eternal peoples".

Neither did he understand that in Christ, God had always intended for there to be "...ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT...ONE HOPE of your calling; ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, who is above all, and through all, and in you all"  (Eph. 4:4-5).   Ever since the Fall in the Garden of Eden, it has always been true that it is only "CHRIST IN YOU" that gives a person the "hope of glory" (Col. 1:27). Not a bloodline, a race, of the will of the flesh, or even the possession of the Mosaic law.

Long ago, both Joshua and Solomon testified that God had made good on every promise He had made to the children of Israel.  God had ALSO promised to destroy them and their nation if they apostatized.  This promise to destroy them God also fulfilled, (as symbolized by Christ cursing the fruitless fig tree that withered), but not without retaining a promised "REMNANT" who would believe on Him as the promised Messiah.  These who ended up believing on Him were the "lost SHEEP (not goats) of the house of Israel" that Christ claimed He was sent for.

That faithful "remnant" was then present in Paul's day.  ("Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." - Rom. 11:5).  The "receiving of them" was indeed "life from AMONG the dead", meaning that there were plenty of spiritually-dead national Israelites left over that did NOT acknowledge Christ as their Messiah, and who were not included in the remnant.

Mr Kelly is totally disregarding the Malachi 4 prophecy that the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" would burn up the nation of Israel "both ROOT and BRANCH".  This meant that their genealogical records of past generations and any significance for their nation's future posterity would be burned up in that day.  Which Josephus tells us happened when the Zealots intentionally burned up all their own nation's records in the Roman/ Jewish war of AD 66-70. 

And just as Daniel 12 predicted, the "power of the holy people was shattered"  by the end of the AD 70 era.  That is not speaking of military power.  That is speaking of being given the "POWER to be called the sons of God - even to them that believe on His name."  (John 1:12). That shattered power also refers to their "sanctuary of strength" (Dan. 11:31) - the Temple they took such pride in - being shattered down to the last stone - "never to be rebuilt" as Isaiah 25:2 foretold and John's angel predicted in Rev. 18:21.

Quote from: Netchaplain on Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 07:04:29Note to reader: It's the hopes of this poster that viewers understand and apply the truths of Israel's eschatology to their faith; and it is also acknowledged concerning the suspicion that most will find this doctrine unfamiliar, and so, initially difficult to understand or lacking interest.

Greetings Netchaplain, while I can appreciate your sincerity and love for Jesus Christ, I reject most of what is posted here based on the testimony of the word of God. Very familiar with the many teachings on Israel's eschatology as taught by many, from Premillennialism to Amillennialism from whence comes the preterist camp, and the Historical camp, and the Idealist camp where I see and understand to be the truth.

Quote from:  Netchaplain on: Yesterday at 07:04:29God bless us to know and receive all the truths of His Word!

Amen~I believe there are righteous people in all four camps~but only one truth.

Quote from: Netchaplain on: Yesterday at 07:04:29It's becoming more obvious all the time that Christendom in general has yet to understand God's permanent union with His people Israel.

The only permanent union is with the children of God's oath and promises, and this is not through the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, nor of blood.

Quote from: Netchaplain on: Yesterday at 07:04:29No doubt there will be confusion when thinking that believers of God among the Israelites are "cast away" when Scripture states otherwise. Some may, and understandably so due to its reading, direct attention to Romans 11:15 and see a contradiction to verse 2, but as it is often used, this is merely a hyperbolic expression giving the sense that "what if they were cast away," or "even if they were cast away." The reply in verse 15 is that the "receiving of them" would be "but life from the dead"; but verse 26 is the strongest proponent of this doctrine, unless one is bereft of conceiving the errant teaching (which some have) that all Christians now represent Israel. The most important instruction here concerns the truth that in the time of God's rejection concerning fellowship with Israel, there is a copious presence of Scripture attesting to His promise that He "will not forsake His people" (1Sa 12:22).

I will not get to finish this so I will say what I can for now and come back later and add more. God has not totally cast away Israel after the flesh, by the very fact that Paul and thousands of other Jews came to the faith after the death of Jesus Christ and also, by the fact that the church are made of of BOTH Jews and Gentiles, the two true wtinessess of God during this present church age.

Quote from: PaulRomans 11:1-6~"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

I could add more but enough for now.

Quote from: Netchaplain on: Yesterday at 07:04:29Even Protestantism has not understood this all important truth that concerns Jewish believers in God (but not yet in Christ - Jn 14:1); of which faith that can never be said concerning the majority of the world).  Many within Christendom have gone as far as to devise an erroneous name for an erroneous system—Judeo-Christian! This also parallels the false concept that Israel is now all who are Christian, which greatly confuses the truths within God's Word concerning Israel's eschatology.

In a few words~Sir, the only people confusing others are those men who teach against what Paul has already taught us the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD are the children of HIS PROMISES, not those who are children after the flesh of Abraham!

Quote from: Paul who was a natural son of AbrahamRomans 9:6-8~"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

The children of Abraham from Genesis 12 onward to this very day are the children of God's oath and promises IN CHRIST, whether they natural children of Abraham (which most were in the NT) or Gentiles believers (which most are in the NT), they alone are the children of Abraham and to them alone are the promises of God directed to~and ALL of those promises will be fulfilled WITHIN this present dispensation BEFORE the coming of Jesus Christ! When Christ comes then cometh the END of all things! see and consider 1st Corinthians 15.

I'll come back later after some meetings.  RB

Hi RB, and always appreciate you comments and respect! Just want to share that I believe two of the prophecies concerning the final salvation of Israel (Isa 45:17) are often misapplied and have yet to occur are Jer 31:31-34 and Eze 36:26, 27. It's my understanding that this work of God will be done unto the larger part of Israel ("all Israel shall be saved"), and probably during the Millennium reign of Christ and His Church.

The majority of the world cannot be said to "believe in God" like those of Israel (Jn 14:1), esp. concerning those before the Cross, who were unknowingly partaking (or pre-taking, e.g. Num 15:25) of Christ's atonement. It's also helpful to remember Abraham's salvation when God imputed righteousness to him just by believing in Him—apart from any law.

Of course, I feel it's good to note that the teachings of this doctrine concerning Israel's eschatology are not essential.

I also wanted to mention that it would not seem correct to conceive that Jeremiah's prophesy concerning Israel's future "New Covenant' could be the Christian's present Covenant in Christ's Blood (as some may think) because this Covenant that Jesus declared to the Jews (Luk 22:20; 1Co 11:25) is not between God and man (nowhere is this even alluded to), but between God and His Son (Heb 13:20). The Eze 31:31 prophesy is a future and eternal covenant between God and man--Israel.

Quote from: Netchaplain on Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 14:37:15
I also wanted to mention that it would not seem correct to conceive that Jeremiah's prophesy concerning Israel's future "New Covenant' could be the Christian's present Covenant in Christ's Blood (as some may think) because this Covenant that Jesus declared to the Jews (Luk 22:20; 1Co 11:25) is not between God and man (nowhere is this even alluded to), but between God and His Son (Heb 13:20). The Eze 31:31 prophesy is a future and eternal covenant between God and man--Israel.

Gentile Christians enjoy the new covenant of grace in Christ as do Messianic Jews.
Remember the gentiles were receiving salvation too during the 1st century AD.
Judaism is no longer valid. Only the remnant of faithful Jews and believing gentiles were saved.
There was no separation. The middle wall of partition.  Ephesians 2:14 ►
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

But Rabbinic Judaism is the result of those Jews who couldn't accept their Messiah, thus they are as lost today as Muslims, who were duped by Mohammed.

Quote from: lea on Fri Jan 17, 2020 - 18:56:39
Gentile Christians enjoy the new covenant of grace in Christ as do Messianic Jews.
Remember the gentiles were receiving salvation too during the 1st century AD.
Judaism is no longer valid. Only the remnant of faithful Jews and believing gentiles were saved.
There was no separation. The middle wall of partition.  Ephesians 2:14 ►
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

But Rabbinic Judaism is the result of those Jews who couldn't accept their Messiah, thus they are as lost today as Muslims, who were duped by Mohammed.

+1

Quote from: Netchaplain on Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 16:09:02Hi RB, and always appreciate you comments and respect!

Ditto.

Quote from: Netchaplain on: Yesterday at 14:37:15Just want to share that I believe two of the prophecies concerning the final salvation of Israel (Isa 45:17) are often misapplied and have yet to occur are Jer 31:31-34 and Eze 36:26, 27.

Red highlight done by me for discussion.

My friend you need to reconsider these passage again in light of the apostles teachings in the NT, and see how they applied their OT scriptures in a totally different sense than many folks do post the apostles, especially so in the last two hundred years or so! The House of Israel (GENTILES) and the House of Judah (JEWS) being one people again is nothing more than Jews and Gentiles coming together as ONE HOLY TEMPLE for God's Spirit to abide in world without end. The LAND that is spoken of in the OT is nothing more than the NEW EARTH AND HEAVEN that shall be created after the Great White Throne Judgement. There are NO PROMISES from God to any natural seed~or, flesh and blood from any nation in this earth, all of God's promises are made through Christ to the children of his oath and promises~his oath and promises were made to CHRIST, not to a bloodline among the fallen children of Adam! That's a big step toward heresy to even lend one's ear to such a corrupt message.

Netchaplain, I can take the time and labor to go into details and prove this to be so, if you desire to consider this in-depth. Truth is hidden in the OT and kept secret until the NT was given that brought to light the true meaning of all those OT scriptures, and this was done by JEWISH APOSTLES. Abraham the father of the Jewish nation did not seek THE land of promise in the middle east according to Hebrews 11:8-11; Romans 4:11; Hebrews 2:5; etc. but in the new earth and heaven~Revelation 21:1.

Quote from: Netchaplain on: Yesterday at 14:37:15Just want to share that I believe two of the prophecies concerning the final salvation of Israel (Isa 45:17) are often misapplied and have yet to occur are Jer 31:31-34 and Eze 36:26, 27.

My friend, those precious scriptures have ALWAYS been in the process of being fulfilled, but with a much clearer revelation of the truth of those scriptures since the days of the apostles.

Quote from: Netchaplain on: Yesterday at 14:37:15It's my understanding that this work of God will be done unto the larger part of Israel ("all Israel shall be saved"), and probably during the Millennium reign of Christ and His Church.

Brother~ALL ISRAEL is to be understood as BOTH Jews and Gentiles, not just Jews~and we will add, that this is taking place NOW within this present dispensation when Christ IS REIGNING over the WHOLE house of Israel from David's spiritual throne  JUST AS PROMISED by David himself! There will be no literal reign of Christ in this present sin-cursed world, with BOTH natural and spiritual bodies being present! That's nothing more than a Jewish fable pushed by false prophets from many different sects in Mystery Babylon.

Quote from: The HOLY GHOSTActs 2:29-37~"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Brother, I KNOW ASSUREDLY and so can you, that Jesus Christ is reigning NOW on David's throne, and according to God~that throne is a SPIRITUAL throne in heaven and will not be on this soon to be destroyed earth as many vainly believe, because of false prophets not taught of God. Also, ask yourself WHEN did Christ ascend to David's throne ACCORDING TO DAVID HIMSELF?

Quote from: King David, Jesus' father according to the flesh as was supposeHe seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,

I'll come back later, the Lord willing......RB

Quote from: Netchaplain on Thu Jan 16, 2020 - 16:09:02It's also helpful to remember Abraham's salvation when God imputed righteousness to him just by believing in Him—apart from any law.

Brother, God imputed righteousness to Abraham without works, including HIS FAITH~righteouness did not come to Abraham by believing~ONLY THE KNOWLEDGE OF IT. Search carefully Romans 4; Galatians 3; etc. and see that this imputeth righteousness that Christ secured for his people, is KNOWN through the SYSTEM OF FAITH, without the works of the law! Nowhere in Romans four do we read that God imputed his righteousness to us BY OUR FAITH in him~that would go against the gospel of Jesus Christ and take away from HIS OBEDIENCE and FAITH and put it on OUR obedience and faith, which NO MAN has, or can have.

QuoteOf course, I feel it's good to note that the teachings of this doctrine concerning Israel's eschatology are not essential.

Actually knowledge of the truth is not essential to have the free gift of eternal life, if so NO ONE would have this free gift, for all of our knowledge of the truth is far from being perfect.

I think before any more comments or opinions can be made I feel there are a couple issues needing addressed. First and foremost is the teaching of "The Covenant of Redemption," because its doctrine is the basis of my understanding Israel's eschatology, and is the Covenant presumed to be the present. "The covenant of redemption is the eternal agreement within the Godhead in which the Father appointed the Son to become incarnate, suffer, and die as a federal head of mankind to make an atonement for their sin. In return, the Father promised to raise Christ from the dead, glorify him, and give him a people." (Wikipedia®)

If this doctrine is true (which is my belief for a while) then the new covenant (as mentioned earlier) of Israel shown in Jer 31:31 cannot be the proposed Covenant here mentioned in Christ's Blood which presently and eternally exists in Christianity. The other difficulty (IMO) is that if "all Israel" and "the Israel of God" refer to all who are reborn in Christ among the Jews and Gentiles, there would need to be an explanation of the dominant usage of Jewish language presented with these terms in Scripture.

Myself, I've been researching the doctrine of Israel's end times in God's plans for a few decades now, and I'm more conclusive than not in believing that the Everlasting Covenant (Heb 13:20) is between God and His Son and not God and man. There is still much information to take in for me to be completely decided on this issue and in the meantime I will only be trying to reply to directly-related comments to these concepts; which again, have no reflection on the essential doctrines of salvation.

Some useful information I found on this subject can be viewed searching "Redemption Planned" by
Don Kistler, and I like the OT passage he includes that I believe is directly related: Zech 6:13.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/redemption-planned/

Quote from: RB on Sat Jan 18, 2020 - 07:02:01
Brother, God imputed righteousness to Abraham without works, including HIS FAITH~righteouness did not come to Abraham by believing~ONLY THE KNOWLEDGE OF IT.

RB, that is in direct conflict with what is stated in God's word.

Gen 15:6  Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Gal 3:6  just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?

Jas 2:23  and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.

There is nothing about those verses that would lead anyone to interpret them as you have. It is only your false theology that forces you to go against what is clearly and obviously said.  It was Abraham's faith, his belief in God, that was reckoned to him as righteousness.  Read it and understand it. Righteousness came to Abraham by believing in God.

Hi 4WD,

The plain answer to your last comment - John 6:29 and the words of Christ.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work OF GOD" (not our work) "that YE BELIEVE ON HIM whom he hath sent."

Abraham's belief was therefore a "work OF GOD" - not initiated by himself unaided by the Almighty.  As we are also told, "Every good gift, and every perfect gift is FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights...". That good gift of faith for Abraham to believe in God was also from above.

Christ is both "the AUTHOR and the FINISHER of our faith", from beginning to end of it.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 22, 2020 - 06:36:09
Hi 4WD,

The plain answer to your last comment - John 6:29 and the words of Christ.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work OF GOD" (not our work) "that YE BELIEVE ON HIM whom he hath sent." 

That's a Calvinistic butchering of context.

The immediate preceding verse shows that "the work of God" referred to those things the disciples must do for God, or to please God.  And the few verses before that show that this "work" is how one obtains "eternal life."  So in this context, the "work" that we do to obtain eternal life from God is to "believe in" Jesus.

Quote
Abraham's belief was therefore a "work OF GOD" - not initiated by himself unaided by the Almighty.  As we are also told, "Every good gift, and every perfect gift is FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights...". That good gift of faith for Abraham to believe in God was also from above.

Christ is both "the AUTHOR and the FINISHER of our faith", from beginning to end of it.

Or "the pioneer and perfecter of the faith," the one who began it and was its ultimate example.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 22, 2020 - 06:36:09
Hi 4WD,

The plain answer to your last comment - John 6:29 and the words of Christ.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work OF GOD" (not our work) "that YE BELIEVE ON HIM whom he hath sent."

Abraham's belief was therefore a "work OF GOD" - not initiated by himself unaided by the Almighty.  As we are also told, "Every good gift, and every perfect gift is FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights...". That good gift of faith for Abraham to believe in God was also from above.

Christ is both "the AUTHOR and the FINISHER of our faith", from beginning to end of it.

So then your answer is that God is not only the initiator of the good, then logically He is the initiator of the bad by the sheer absence of His actions to change that.  Ridiculous.

Quote from: NorrinRadd on Wed Jan 22, 2020 - 07:06:16
That's a Calvinistic butchering of context.

Right on!!

+1

Hey 4WD and NorrinRadd,

Let's use a practical illustration for comparison.

Say a parent wants to give a good gift of a car to their graduating son or daughter.  They know by simple logic that a car wreck occurs on the average about every ten years for a driver, even with the best driving records for any individual.  Their son or daughter could very well die in that vehicle gifted to them, or they could kill or injure someone else with that gift of a car.  Is that parent guilty of cruelty, or even sin, by giving that gift to their child which could endanger them or someone else?  Hardly. 

Let's make it even simpler.  Does the choice of giving birth to a child make that parent  guilty of every sin that the child will inevitably commit?  After all, they know in advance beyond a doubt that this baby sooner or later will end up committing sins by choosing to do so.  Do they refrain from having a child because of this fact?  Hardly.

We don't consider ourselves guilty of the sins our children commit of their own volition.  So why would you propose that we are saying that a predestinating God is guilty of the sins that an originally-sinless Adam and Eve and their tainted offspring would commit by their own choices?  God is capable of making even the wrath of men to end up praising Him, and the remainder of wrath He is able to restrain when He desires, so that mankind doesn't  run to the fullest extent of its sinful capabilities of self-destruction on every occasion (Ps.76:10).

As far as Abraham's ability to exercise belief or faith, "...what hast thou that thou hast not received?" (I Cor. 4:7).  "...for it is GOD that WORKETH IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure."  (Phil. 2:13).

And NorrinRadd, Christ is not only the perfect example of faith, but He is the one who is credited with the result of bringing our faith to its perfected conclusion.  The word for "finisher" in Hebrews 12:2, as you probably know already, is linked to the Greek "telos" - indicating the END or the successful completed result of something.   

The picture I see in Revelation is of the 24 elders casting their crowns at Jesus feet - not slapping each other on the back and congratulating themselves for their own virtue.  At least you have said that you agree that Christ "begins" our faith as its author.  That's something.

Your views on John 6:29 is about as ludicrous as your views on eschatology.  I will do my best to reject both..

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 22, 2020 - 08:21:42
...

And NorrinRadd, Christ is not only the perfect example of faith, but He is the one who is credited with the result of bringing our faith to its perfected conclusion.  The word for "finisher" in Hebrews 12:2, as you probably know already, is linked to the Greek "telos" - indicating the END or the successful completed result of something.   

The picture I see in Revelation is of the 24 elders casting their crowns at Jesus feet - not slapping each other on the back and congratulating themselves for their own virtue.  At least you have said that you agree that Christ "begins" our faith as its author.  That's something.

I don't necessarily agree with your understanding.  I don't agree that Jesus "authored" faith in those of us who believe, by somehow placing it in us, while withholding it from others.  I see Heb. 12:2 as presenting Jesus as the ultimate example, toward whom our faith points and upon whom it rests.