Christian Forums

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 08, 2017 - 11:10:22

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Sep 06, 2016 - 13:43:49

Quote from: Tertullian on Wed Aug 24, 2016 - 22:52:20
The message of "meeting the Lord in the Air" isn't to teach something called the Rapture.  The message is to assure us that when we die we'll go to meet Jesus along with our loved ones in Christ who have died previously.

That's the point, actually.

Once 1 Cor.15 is understood about the change at the "last trump", I don't see how anyone could miss that the gathering of Christ at His coming is going to be in the "spiritual body" and not in a flesh body.


1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

How can a believer just dump what all Paul taught there with instead believing in a flesh resurrection body which Paul did not teach?

hmmm...

Now I understand the atheist.
Not believing at all is far easier than trying to sort out all this.

Now I understand why there are at least 33,000 denominations of Christians all
reading the same book!

Quote from: jeager on Wed Mar 22, 2017 - 00:43:22
Now I understand the atheist.
Not believing at all is far easier than trying to sort out all this.

Now I understand why there are at least 33,000 denominations of Christians all
reading the same book!

Still no excuse for not getting into God's Word for oneself. Understanding in God's Word comes from Him, not man. The reason why there's so many confusing doctrines is because of men's leaven.

In Matthew 16:5-12, the disciples had forgotten to take bread with them. Jesus then warned them to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. They thought He was talking about their forgetting to bring bread.

Then Jesus reminded them of the miracles of the loaves and fishes, and how many basket of 'fragments' they gathered up afterwards.

What leaven (yeast) does is makes bread rise. Unleavened bread doesn't rise. This is why we can take a closer look at leavened bread and see many, many tiny air pocket bubbles in it. So it looks... like we're getting more bread, but we are not in reality.

That is the comparison our Lord Jesus was giving about men's doctrines. Men's doctrines act like leaven, adding to and expanding the original loaf of unleavened bread. That is why Christ's disciples gathered up 12 baskets of bread fragments after the miracle of feeding five thousand from five loaves.

That is one of the main ways the devil works for this world. His job is to confuse you as much as possible away... from the simplicity of God's Word. That is why when we open up God's written Word in study for ourselves, we need to pray for understanding in it, and then simply get down to Book by Book, chapter by chapter, line upon line study in all of it.

Apostle Paul told Timothy to become a 'workman' in God's Word so as to be approved of God and not ashamed. That means a working knowledge in God's Word, not men's doctrines, not commentaries, not men's books.

  I agree. Scripture is mostly LITERAL, & when it is symbolic, it always represents something literal.

The "scorpions" in Revelation were the catapult mechanisms the Romans used to fling large stones over the temple walls. (Rev.9:10)

Futurists don't know or realize that "scorpions" here are figurative descriptions of something literal that happened during the Roman Jewish war. AD67- 70.

Hey lea,

Yep, total agreement that the "scorpion" imagery was applied to the Roman troops that were acting like tormenting "locusts" in Judea under governor Florus' orders.  This was done during those literal 5 months in AD 66 with the purpose of goading the Israelites into a violent rebellion to defend themselves.

The "hair like women" and the "crowns like gold" on their foreheads in Rev. 9:7-8 were an exact description of the Roman helmets contemporary with the AD 60's.  They had  polished brass bands across the forehead, and a crest of horsehair of varying lengths called a "crista".  We know this was the same helmet described in Revelation 9, because we have examples of these salvaged helmets from the rubbish pits of Colchester England, the location of Rome's AD 60 battle with the English Queen Boudicca.

Want a picture of an exact replica of this helmet from Revelation 9?  Here's a link:

https://www.lawranceordnance.com/default/roman-gallic-g-centurion-s-helmet.html/

I suppose this theme is totally off-topic, so if you want to respond to this, maybe you can post a separate thread.

  Pure conjecture & imagination. Catapults are scorpions? LOL!  No scorpion ever launched anything. And not many Roman soldiers had the helmets y'all described, that we've all seen pictures of.
  Still trying to invent stuff to justify the false pret myth. Well, it still won't work. The rest of go on HISTORY & REALITY, not pipe dreams.

Apparently some people do not understand the use of a SIMILE in scripture which uses the word "LIKE" or "AS" to make a comparison.  These "locust tails" were "LIKE scorpions"; they had something "LIKE crowns of gold" on their foreheads, with hair "AS the hair of women", etc., etc.  Figures of speech.

But back to topic...

I believe this "meeting in the air"  (literally the earth's sky, or "aer" as Jarrod originally stated) was actually prophesied back in the OT by Jacob on his deathbed in Genesis 49:10.   Speaking of "Shiloh" who would come from the tribe of Judah (who was Christ Jesus), he predicted that "...unto Him shall the GATHERING OF THE PEOPLE BE...". 

This is the same "gathering" that Paul spoke of in I Thess. 2:1.  "Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM...". So the "gathering" and Christ's "coming" were linked together as concurrent events.

This "gathering" would be of incorruptible FLESH AND *BONES* BODIES, not flesh and BLOOD bodies, since the life of man while in this mortal existence must utilize blood to function.  "For the life of the flesh is in the blood..." (Lev. 17:11).  This is why the OT animal sacrifices were to have the blood removed before they were accepted on God's altar. 

A "Flesh and BONES" body (not flesh and blood) was what Christ displayed to His disciples as His glorified body after His resurrection (Luke 24:39).  This SAME GLORIFIED RESURRECTED BODY of Christ's "passed into the heavens", and is now presently acting as our human/divine high priest intercessor. 

All saints were promised to share in this SAME INHERITANCE of a renovated flesh and bones body like that of Christ by being changed into an incorruptible state. "...who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body..." (Phil. 3:21). 

The saints' dead mortal bodies being "changed" is not the same as their being "EXchanged".  Our original forms that Jesus paid His life-blood to purchase are not relegated to the trash bin after death.  God utilizes the same original material, and by the Spirit's power, He renders that material incorruptible and whole - fit to be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24).  Makes no difference to God's renovating ability if the molecules of those bodies have passed into the food chain or not, since Jesus promised his disciples that "there shall not an hair of your head perish" if they died (Luke 21:16-18).

The first presentation of the saints before God's throne in heaven was the AD 70 resurrection event.  We now await the next gathering of the rest of the dead saints in a future bodily resurrection.

And NOBODY gets a "get-out-of-death-free" card, as is the usual misinterpretation of the "rapture".  We are told in no uncertain terms that "It is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, but after this the judgment"  (Heb. 9:27).  NO exceptions for the living saints - even for the "living and remaining" saints of the "I Thess. 4 "rapture" text.   Those saints Paul was referring to had ALREADY died and been resurrected to a living state (those such as Lazarus and the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints), but had "remained" on earth at that time Paul was writing.

NO TRANSLATION of the living saints is ever promised to us - neither in the "rapture" text of I Thess. 4, nor in the I Cor. 15 description of the change for the corruptible bodies of the DEAD saints into incorruptibility.

The book of Job anticipated a CHANGE of the body, only after a period of that body waiting in the dust of the grave - not a TRANSLATION type of change for the living who had not died yet.   "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time and remember me!  If a man die, shall he live again?  All the days of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY *CHANGE* COME.  Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thy hands."  (Job 14:13-15).

That "meeting in the air" in I Thess. 4 was designated for every saint who had ever been raised from the dead up until that AD 70 date when Christ came in the clouds to literally stand on the Mount of Olives. 

The "eastern gate" of the temple in Jerusalem was the portal through which all the resurrected saints of the world passed through to meet Christ in the air when He "received them unto Himself".   At that time, He gathered them from the four winds; from the uttermost parts of both heaven and earth - wherever the scattered cells of a dead saint's mortal body had been scattered. 

This is why Zerubbabel's constructed post-exilic temple (according to the plans found in Ezekiel 46:1-3) required the people back then to gather for worship before that temple's eastern gate entrance on the sabbath and on the days of the new moon.  It was going to be the location and the timing of Messiah the Prince's return, which took place on AD 70's Pentecost day, just before that entire temple's structure was destroyed to the last stone.

In other words, the literal "rapture" of the resurrected saints text has already been fulfilled back in Paul's generation after that generation's "Great Tribulation".  Though there are presently general periods of tribulation that Christ predicted would follow after that "great tribulation" in the AD 70 era, we don't presently wait for a rapture; we wait for the final resurrection when Christ returns to earth for the last time.

  No, this general resurrection of saints hasn't yet happened. While some were resurrected at Jesus' death, they were in their mortal bodies & died again, as did Lazarus, Dorcas, Jairus' daughter, and from the OT, the dead Israeli whose body was hastily laid against Elisha's bones.

  As for the coming "rapture" (translation), Paul, writing on authority of the Holy Spirit, wrote that "We shall not all sleep". So, there WILL be a generation of saints who won't die the ordinary deaths we now experience.

No, robycop3, your statement about a supposed "double death" for all those examples of resurrected saints is in plain denial of Hebrews 9:27.  "It is appointed unto men *ONCE* to die, but after that the judgment." 

What part of "ONCE to die" do you not understand?  ONCE means ONCE - not twice.  Those resurrected individuals had all "remained" on the earth after they were made "alive" by the Spirit resurrecting them.  They were waiting for the time of the AD 70 "rapture" and the judgment, at which time they and all the newly-resurrected saints who had been raptured together with them would be given rewards.

We are not talking about resuscitations with CPR in an emergency room here.  We are talking about examples of some people who had been dead to the point of rotting and disintegration, such as Lazarus and those who had long been buried in tombs around Jerusalem being raised to incorruptible, immortal life by the power of the Spirit. 

As for the "rapture" text you brought up (the "we shall not all sleep" phrase), this does NOT AT ALL excuse a single person from the "ONE-TIME-appointed" death process.  That phrase as Paul intended for the Corinthian saints really meant "NONE OF US shall sleep, but we shall ALL be changed...".   NONE of the bodies of the saints were to stay in the grave, but they would ALL eventually be changed into their incorruptible state. 

Compare this I Cor. 15 language of "We shall NOT ALL sleep" to the same language found in I John 2:19, which says of the various anti-christs  that "...they were NOT ALL of us".   There were NO EXCEPTIONS for all those various anti-christs that John mentioned.  NONE of them truly belonged to the group of Christian assemblies that they had been mixing with.  This was made manifest, because ALL OF THEM had departed from fellowship among the believers.

It's the same meaning given in I Cor. 15's phrase of "we shall NOT ALL sleep...".  Literally, NOT ONE SINGLE SAINT - no exceptions - would have the remains of their physical body that would stay sleeping in the grave.  ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION would be changed.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't bother reading the post I already put up that covered this point extensively, but for anyone else, here's the link:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'we-shall-not-all-sleep'-means-'none-of-us-shall-sleep'/

  Still making up stuff, I see.  Enoch & Elijah didn't die.
And Jesus said going to hell was the 2nd death.
Seen lazarus lately ? Not the store family, but the one Jesus resurrected ? How about Dorcas ?
They died again, of course.
So, "not all sleep" is a mistranslation ? HORSE FEATHERS! I checked out the Greek, which proves your silly claim wrong. I hope YOU check it out as well; maybe you'll drop some of that blarney some charlatan taught you.
  Now, I'm not claiming any saint would have his/her own physical body back. Many had their bodies vaporized in war, accidents, etc. while others' bodies moldered into atmosphere. While GOD has the power to re-assemble them, He won't as He's chosen to give every saint a new body.

  And, BTW, I DID read that post, & it's mostly hooey.

Robycop3, if you actually DID read my entire post as you say you have, you would have noticed in reply #17 of that post that I DID review the Greek for this phrase "We shall NOT all sleep".  I also covered the textual variants of this phrase, and there are several.

For those who want to rely solely on scripture compared to itself to interpret this short phrase (without referring to the Greek), we have the exact same words in I Cor. 15:51 compared to those found in I John 2:19 in the example I gave you earlier.  It is evident in the I John 2:19 phrase that there are NO EXCEPTIONS allowed in the "NOT ALL" phrase.  Not a single one of those many anti-christs belonged as part of the church assembly fellowship, since - without a single exception - John said they ALL "went out from among us". 

Similarly, not a single one of the Corinthian believer's bodies would remain in the grave asleep, because every one of them - without a single exception - Paul said would be changed from a state of death to an incorruptible, immortal state.  As I said before, this was a "CHANGE" for the dead bodies of the saints.  It was NOT said to be an EXchange that discarded the original body form's substance. 

And if you were paying close enough attention, I never said in my post that "we shall not all sleep" was a MISTRANSLATION.  I said this phrase has been MISINTERPRETED by those who add a presumed translation-type change for the living saints at Christ's return. 

It is good that you acknowledge that God does have sufficient power to reassemble any "vaporized" remains of a believer's dead body, even though (just like the Full Preterists that you despise) you do not think that God will ever exercise this power.  That view ignores the fact that Christ already gave a clear example of doing this "reassembly" in the case of the many resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints that were seen by many.

As for Enoch and Elijah's cases, if you truly had read my post completely, you would have  noticed where I agree with you that Enoch was translated that he would not see death (reply #9).  God used the single case of Enoch's translation as an exclusive, unique anti-type for a very specific reason, which I have covered in another post.  However, this SINGLE exception for Enoch does not authorize a doctrine of a mass translation-type change for all saints at Christ's return(s).  None of us are given a "get-out-of-death-free" card when it comes to the physical death of our body.

But as for Elijah, he was never translated.  Neither was he taken into God's presence in heaven by the whirlwind (since Jesus denied this in John 3:13).  He was only taken "*AS IT WERE* INTO HEAVEN", according to the LXX.  We know this because 10 years later after the whirlwind transport through the sky, Elijah was writing a letter to King Jehoram of Judah in II Chron. 21:12.  Elijah was subjected to the same ONE-TIME appointment of death in Hebrews 9:27, just like everyone else.

And, ummm, HELL in scripture (which is "Hades" or the grave) is never called the "second death".  It's the "LAKE OF FIRE" that is equated with being the "second death" in Rev. 20:14.  And we are told that this "Furnace of Fire" of Matthew 13:42 where the iniquitous tares were to be cast was actually located in the city of Jerusalem. 

Jeremiah 31:9 says that the Lord's "FIRE IS IN ZION, and His FURNACE IN JERUSALEM."  This particular city's location experienced the Lake of Fire which would burn up the "tares", as well as Satan and his devils, and the Rev. 17 Scarlet Beast and the Rev. 13 Beast from the Land of Israel.  It was the second time that Jerusalem and its temple had been burned down to the ground, and on the very same anniversary day of the year as its first death under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC.

And your question if I have seen Lazarus or Dorcas around today is not applicable.  That's because these two resurrected individuals (who never died again a second time according to Hebrews 9:27) were part of the "alive and remaining" saints of I Thess. 4 that were "raptured" on AD 70's Pentecost day.  They "met the Lord in the air"  with all the rest of the newly-resurrected saints that Christ "received unto Himself" and  "brought with Him" back to heaven to present to His Father.

  We cannot make "We shall not all sleep" into anything else but what it plainly says. When the "rapture" comes, it'll take the living up immediately after the righteous dead. They won't die.

   As for Elijah, when he was taken up, his mantle fell to the ground, & was taken up by Elisha, who became the main prophet of Israel. We don't know for sure exactly whom penned the letter in 2 Chron. Remember, there was a prophets' school run by Elisha, and another prophet could've also been named Elijah. I believe that if Elijah had been left upon the earth, we would've heard more about him, & Elisha wouldn't have taken his place after the chariot came.

  And hades is not hell. That's a KJV mistranslation. Hell is the lake of fire.

  And your "Lazarus & Dorcas" stull is simply an invention to try to justify the false preterist trash. They simply died again, same as everyone else of that time. The "rapture" is still future.

Wow.  Just shaking my head here....

In order to cling to your views expressed above, robycop3, you are cancelling a LOT of scripture to do so.

#1)  You are calling the author of Hebrews 9:27 a liar when they said mankind is only appointed "*ONCE* TO DIE, but after this the judgment."  This one-time restriction also applied to Lazarus and Dorcas and any others such as the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised to life again by the Spirit's power.

#2)  You are calling Jesus a liar in John 3:13 when He said that "NO MAN HATH ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN...". That restriction also applied to the prophet Elijah as well as Enoch.  Neither of these had bodily ascended into God's presence in heaven prior to the time of Christ's ministry.  That honor was to be reserved for Christ alone as the "Firstbegotten" of the Father on His resurrection-day ascension.

#3)  You are calling the prophet Ezra a liar, (the probable author of II Chron. 21:12),  when he said the prophet Elijah was writing to King Jehoram 10 years after his whirlwind transport, and that he was only "*AS IT WERE* taken to heaven" - not that he actually was.  Moreover, you are inventing out of thin air another mythical prophet also named Elijah, contemporary with Elisha's ministry.  There is also no rule saying that Elijah HAD to be dead and/or off the planet before Elisha could take up his mantle and follow Elijah's ministry.

#4)  You are calling the prophet John a liar in Rev. 20:14 when he specifically defines the Lake of Fire as being the "second death".  Both Death and Hell ("Death and Hades" in the Interlinear) were thrown INTO the Lake of Fire, which was the "furnace of fire" located "in JERUSALEM", according to Matthew 13:42 and Jeremiah 31:9. Another prophet which you are also calling a liar.  Hell cannot be the Lake of Fire itself if Hell ("Hades" in the Interlinear) was to be thrown INTO  that Lake of Fire. That means these two are identified as different things.

As I said, you are sweeping a LOT of scripture under the rug in order to cling to your viewpoint.  You may have honest intentions, but I would think twice before cancelling what John, Jesus, Ezra, Matthew, Jeremiah, and the author of Hebrews had to say on this matter.

Quote from: lea on Tue Mar 31, 2020 - 12:22:43
The "scorpions" in Revelation were the catapult mechanisms the Romans used to fling large stones over the temple walls. (Rev.9:10)

Futurists don't know or realize that "scorpions" here are figurative descriptions of something literal that happened during the Roman Jewish war. AD67- 70.

Sorry, but that's kind of funny. There's no way one can get such an idea from that symbolic metaphor given in Revelation 9.

Rev 9:3-5
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
KJV

A tribuchet (catapult weapon) definitely does damage to "the grass of the earth", and kills people. Yet the Rev.9 Scripture says the metaphorical scorpion doesn't do either.

So that symbol definitely is NOT... some symbol of the Roman's seige weapons in 70 A.D. Jerusalem.

Hey robycop3,

You are correct to point out to lea that the emphasis during this particular plague was not on the physical devastation of the landscape as it's objective.  It's true, neither the "grass" nor "any green thing", nor killing of those without God's seal was the primary focus at this particular FIVE MONTHS of tormenting treatment by the "locusts". 

These conditional limitations show us the TIMING of this Rev. 9:5,10 torment.  It was NOT in AD 70, but it WAS done by the Romans against Judean citizens.  Typically in Israel, the actual time for real locusts to plague the countryside in swarms are during the April/May through August/September season.  Likewise, the time when the Roman troops under the corrupt governor Florus were given his encouragement to torment the citizens of Judea occurred during the same season. 

From Passover in AD 66 until August of AD 66 (the 5 months of Rev. 9:5,10), the Roman soldiers under Florus were encouraged to do their utmost to provoke the Israelites into a rebellion to defend themselves and their temple (Wars 2.14.2 and following).  The incident with the sacrificed birds in front of the synagogue (a ceremony implying that the Israelite people were leprous and unclean), the soldier publicly mooning the Jews on the feast day, Florus raiding the temple treasury and robbing "whole cities" - all these incidents and other tormenting conditions were done deliberately by the Roman troops with Florus' encouragement during that 5 month period.

Of course, the natural reaction as a result of this tormenting treatment under Florus and the Roman soldiers was for the Zealot faction to make a break with Rome in August of AD 66.  The beginning of the war began with Eleazar's refusal to offer the temple sacrifices anymore for the empire and the emperor after that month - a clear violation of Israel's agreement with Rome that allowed them to practice Judaism as a "religio licita" under Rome's permission as long as they did this.   An attack on the Antonia fortress and on the Roman troops at Masada followed in short order, further solidifying their break with Roman governance.

The "scorpion" reference DOES apply to the catapult weaponry in the arsenal of the Romans.  However, scripture never says that it was this "scorpion" catapult that did the tormenting itself during those particular 5 months.  It was the "locusts" that did the tormenting in Rev. 9:10.  When you see the "scorpion" catapults in operation, the action is very like the overhead strike of an actual scorpion, which is undoubtedly why the Romans gave them that nickname.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue Apr 07, 2020 - 09:54:19
Hey robycop3,

You are correct to point out to lea that the emphasis during this particular plague was not on the physical devastation of the landscape as it's objective.  It's true, neither the "grass" nor "any green thing", nor killing of those without God's seal was the primary focus at this particular FIVE MONTHS of tormenting treatment by the "locusts". 

These conditional limitations show us the TIMING of this Rev. 9:5,10 torment.  It was NOT in AD 70, but it WAS done by the Romans against Judean citizens.  Typically in Israel, the actual time for real locusts to plague the countryside in swarms are during the April/May through August/September season.  Likewise, the time when the Roman troops under the corrupt governor Florus were given his encouragement to torment the citizens of Judea occurred during the same season. 

From Passover in AD 66 until August of AD 66 (the 5 months of Rev. 9:5,10), the Roman soldiers under Florus were encouraged to do their utmost to provoke the Israelites into a rebellion to defend themselves and their temple (Wars 2.14.2 and following).  The incident with the sacrificed birds in front of the synagogue (a ceremony implying that the Israelite people were leprous and unclean), the soldier publicly mooning the Jews on the feast day, Florus raiding the temple treasury and robbing "whole cities" - all these incidents and other tormenting conditions were done deliberately by the Roman troops with Florus' encouragement during that 5 month period.

....

Not a bit of Scripture support anywhere, nor historical support either. The Daniel prophecy for the time of great tribulation is 1260 days, i.e., the latter half of the Dan.9:27 symbolic "one week". That is also the 42 months of Rev.13 that the 'dragon' is to reign and overcome the saints, and is also the 42 months the Gentiles are given to tread Jerusalem at the end of this world, per Rev.11. But where is your Scripture support for that "five months"?

Moreover, at the start of that Rev.9 chapter we are shown those events happen within the 5th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. THAT MEANS THE BLOWING OF THE TRUMPETS HAD ALREADY STARTED. And that then means at the VERY END OF THIS WORLD, not back 2,000 years ago.

Hey dpr, 

You asked "But where is your scripture support for that 'five months'?"

Surely you jest.  I already gave the references for this literal time period of five months from Rev. 9:5 and Rev. 9:10.    Do you need me to type them out?  Remember, I have to post by text on my cell phone with arthritic fingers, so I often will list scripture proof for my points with only the applicable scripture references and maybe a pertinent phrase or two, without writing out the entire verse (because I presume most who really are interested in checking up on me will look it up for themselves, or they know the verse by heart anyway).

The literal five months of tormenting the Israelite citizens in AD 66 by Governor Florus and his troops (the "locusts") came just PRIOR to the Great Tribulation which started in AD 66.  It was the main provoking cause of the Zealot rebellion breaking out (the "apostasia").

It seems you are lumping all those time periods together (1260 days, and those differing periods of 42 months) as if they are all the same one under consideration. 

They aren't. 

The 1260 days applied to the persecution by the Jewish leadership (including Saul) against the early church during the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th "week" that ended in AD 37.  The "woman fleeing into the wilderness" was the early believers at Jerusalem who were "scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria" (Acts 8:1) from the same day Stephen was martyred and afterward.  But it sounds as if you believe in an artificial, illogical "gap" inserted in the 70 week prophecy that is actually supposed to remain intact and uninterrupted. 

There's also a goof in your saying that the dragon is supposed to reign and overcome the saints for 42 months in Rev. 13.  That oppressive warfare against the saints is credited to the Sea Beast instead.  It's describing the literal 42 months between AD 64 and 68 when Nero, (one of the Sea Beast's 10 crowned "horns"), blamed Christians for the AD 64 fire at Rome, and launched a literal 42-month pogrom against them until his death in AD 68.  This 42 months of persecution was the ongoing "fiery trial" which Peter (writing in AD 65) encouraged the believers to joyfully endure in I Peter 4:12, because Christ's glory was "ABOUT TO BE REVEALED"(I Peter 4:13 cp 5:1) when the "chief shepherd shall appear" (I Peter 5:4). 

The OTHER literal 42 months period of Gentiles treading Jerusalem and its temple underfoot was the various Zealot factions wreaking havoc in Jerusalem with their civil warfare against their own people between late AD 66 and early AD 70.   Zealotry was birthed in "Galilee of the Gentiles", which region was the hotbed that launched many first-century Zealot rebel leaders who ended up fighting their own people in Jerusalem.  Such a one was "Judas the Galilean", an early example of a Zealot rebel leader found in Acts 5:37.

And you are confusing the "end of the world" with the "end of the AGE".   Two different words, and two different things entirely.

And all those trumpet judgments, including the fifth one, were scheduled for an "AT HAND" fulfillment in JOHN's days - not almost 2,000 years later, which is not a time period anywhere "NEAR" to John's days, by any wild stretch of the imagination.

  Jesus said the great trib would be the worst ever, & if those days were not cut short, no flesh (sark in Greek-human & animal flesh alike) would survive. And that trib will be WORLDWIDE, not just limited to Judea.

  Events such as those of 66-70 AD have occurred often, & were not worldwide. They were all man-made, not involving the forces of nature.

  No matter how many times you repeat "at hand", those events have simply not yet occurred, as is very-evident by the fact that Jesus isn't physically here yet, ruling the world.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Apr 08, 2020 - 00:46:36
Hey dpr, 

You asked "But where is your scripture support for that 'five months'?"

Surely you jest.  I already gave the references for this literal time period of five months from Rev. 9:5 and Rev. 9:10.    Do you need me to type them out?  Remember, I have to post by text on my cell phone with arthritic fingers, so I often will list scripture proof for my points with only the applicable scripture references and maybe a pertinent phrase or two, without writing out the entire verse (because I presume most who really are interested in checking up on me will look it up for themselves, or they know the verse by heart anyway).

The literal five months of tormenting the Israelite citizens in AD 66 by Governor Florus and his troops (the "locusts") came just PRIOR to the Great Tribulation which started in AD 66.  It was the main provoking cause of the Zealot rebellion breaking out (the "apostasia").

It seems you are lumping all those time periods together (1260 days, and those differing periods of 42 months) as if they are all the same one under consideration. 

They aren't. 

The "five months" of Rev.9 is actually related to the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. The actual time of the stinging is with the loosing of the four angels at the river Euphrates. The events of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe are the events at the 'end', just prior to Christ's 2nd coming to end this present world. Your Israelite torment history applied to that five months is made up, because that "five months" period has not happened yet.

So it's just the old Preterist game of trying to assign historical preterist events to Bible prophecy that hasn't even taken place yet.

The "five months" is linked to what Jesus said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

  Scriptural proof the great trib will be WORLDWIDE  Rev. 3:10 [color]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.[/color]

  Jesus couldn't have made it much plainer! And it's quite-obvious the whole world has never been hit that hard yet.

Robycop3, you and I have discussed this same verse before, don't you remember?  I agreed with you that there was going to be a WORLDWIDE effect of the Great Tribulation.

But you, on the other hand, are totally ignoring this verse's TIME LIMITATION for when it would take place across the whole known world.  "...the hour of trial which is *ABOUT TO COME* upon the whole habitable world."  (Rev. 3:10 - Interlinear version).

From John's perspective on the timeline, this Great Tribulation was ABOUT TO START in HIS days - not yours and mine, some 2,000 year's down the road from then.

Why do you still insist that John was a liar when he wrote this for his generation to be prepared in THEIR DAYS for this Great Tribulation? 

  Sir, the facts are simple - those events simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED ! No matter how many times you repeat "at hand", you cannot change history.

Quote from: robycop3 on Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 05:08:04
  Sir, the facts are simple - those events simply HAVEN'T YET HAPPENED ! No matter how many times you repeat "at hand", you cannot change history.

No matter how you twist the Biblical "at hand" you cannot change its plain meaning.

Quote from: lea on Thu Apr 09, 2020 - 16:41:38
No matter how you twist the Biblical "at hand" you cannot change its plain meaning.

  Wanna shut me up ? it's simple ! Just provide **PROOF** that the prophesied events have all happened ! I mean REAL PROOF, not gossip, tall tales, incorrent "history", conjecture, innuends, guesswork, or outright LYING. (Not accusing you of these, just accusing you of repeating someone else's false hooey.)

Robycop3,

You know the old saying I'm sure - "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

From the bellicose fashion in which you post, it would appear that you are no more interested in a Preterist supplying historical or scriptural proof to you than an atheist university professor would be interested in a Christian student supplying proof of God's existence to him.

If you are cynically predisposed to shoot down any proof offered to you as not being "REAL proof", then why should any thinking person pick up the gauntlet you are throwing in their face?  Such would be a waste of time and effort, especially when many, many of these points of proof have already been covered extensively on this forum, from both scripture and history - just not to your personal satisfaction.

Christ already warned His disciples in Luke 6:26, "Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you!"  Because Preterism goes against the grain of many believers who prefer to stick to their traditions, Preterists have taken this message of Christ's to heart. 

I long ago laid at Christ's feet any expectation of acceptance from the majority of fellow-believers on eschatological matters.  Disdain or sarcasm from militant anti-Preterists is not a problem.  If you can't understand these points that Preterism lays out, why, you just can't, that's all. 

For myself,  I feel uncommonly blessed, and humbly give thanks to God daily for opening my eyes after walking in a fog about these things for so long as a Christian.  My hope and joy in my Savior increases the longer I study how He fulfilled His every spoken word in its predicted time and sequence.  It truly gives me the most unspeakable peace.  I'm so sorry you can't share in this!

  Sorry if I often seem bellicose or cynical, but I know history quite well, and that includes the LITERAL fulfillment of many Scriptural prophecies. I have no reason to believe the rest won't be fulfilled just-as-literally.

  Let me give you a recent example: Isaiah 19:17 where he wrote that the land of Judah would become a terror to the Egyptians. There are 80 million Egyptians & 6 million Israelis, but from 1973 onward, the Egyptians wouls quake in their fezzes every time a Jew rattled his Uzi. This went on, til Egypt & Israel signed the peace treaty of 1979 at Camp David. And the previous parts of that chapter were literally fulfilled, as Egypt went from a rich, powerful nation to poverty & foreign rule from 343 BC til 1922 AD. Again, there's simply no valid reason to not believe the rest of Scriptural prophecy won't be fulfilled just-as-literally as God's times arrive.

  I have repeatedly asked prets for **PROOF** that their assertions are true, and have never been shown any such proof. All I've seen are pret attempts to reduce Scriptures that are inconvenient to their doctrine to "figurative/symbolic" status, or conjecture & guesswork in their trying to make certain minor events into the fulfillments of prophecies. If someone can show me any ACTUAL PROOF, Imight modify my 'take' on preterism. I totally reject any alterations to the meaning of Scriptures.

  Prets lean heavily upon some writings by Josephus Flavius, who had to be careful what he wrote, lest he lose his head by offending a mamber of Vespasian's or Titus' families. He didn't dare write anything that placed any Romans in a bad light.

    Many of these events are simply not found in history, which means they haven't yet happened. Rev. 3:10 makes it plain that the great trib will be WORLDWIDE, and it's very-obvious that Jesus hasn't yet returned. No wonder I'm cynical when someone says those events have already occurred, because I SIMPLY KNOW BETTER, from sure knowledge. And so do most other Christians !

My local radio just 5 minutes ago gave a quote by Reagan that I think states things better than I could.  To paraphrase his idea a bit, the thought is, "It's not that you are ignorant; it's just that you know so much that isn't so."

So we are to run all eschatology through you personally as the proper filter and benchmark of what is true?   Please don't think me harsh when I say this, but I am captive and conscience-bound, like Luther, to the scripture's internal witness as to WHEN these prophesies took place - not to whatever level of historical knowledge that you may have attained, or think you have attained. 

You and I are both in the aging, senior citizen category, apparently.  It is only natural and wise that we should both wish to leave a legacy of truth behind us for the benefit of following generations before we pass on.  I give you credit for your zeal if it is done with honest intent.  But before God, I believe it is a zeal that is "not according to knowledge", as Paul once testified in Romans 10 of his zealous fellow-Jews that were rejecting the New Covenant in favor of the Old Covenant.  I grant that you may earnestly be thinking  you are "doing God service" by battling all Preterist views as heresy by your estimation.  Some errant views within the Preterist system DO need to be plowed under (such as the rejection of a bodily resurrection).  But the rest is based on sound interpretation that validates Christ's and the apostles' words that applied to that first-century generation.

The lone example you gave of Israel and Egypt is already history - not a prophesy to be fulfilled in our future.  Many of the  promises that you assume are intended for modern-day Israel were already fulfilled in the centuries following the post-exilic return. 

Egypt has LITERALLY remained "the basest of kingdoms" that would never be able to "exalt itself anymore above the nations", as God promised through Ezekiel 29:13-16.  This regathering of Egypt into becoming a "base kingdom" was promised to happen to them at the end of a LITERAL 40-year period of total devastation and dispersal - a period that has long passed into the history books.

My free time has its limits, but if you are serious about having never seen any "proof", I might be able to do a series providing a historical chronology of first-century fulfillment that leans heavily on literal events that match the prophesied order as given in scripture.  Even though you yourself might dismiss the eye-witness of general Josephus turned historian, there are others who may want to give it consideration along with other historians' records of that time period. 

I have already said that I will try to look up the link and post the source that gives a step-by-step historical chronology of Daniel 11 with names and dates of past fulfillment.  It's WAY TOO MUCH for even me to type, but it's well worth reviewing.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 11:25:53
My local radio just 5 minutes ago gave a quote by Reagan that I think states things better than I could.  To paraphrase his idea a bit, the thought is, "It's not that you are ignorant; it's just that you know so much that isn't so."

So we are to run all eschatology through you personally as the proper filter and benchmark of what is true?   Please don't think me harsh when I say this, but I am captive and conscience-bound, like Luther, to the scripture's internal witness as to WHEN these prophesies took place - not to whatever level of historical knowledge that you may have attained, or think you have attained.

  With all due respect, Sir, you place 'WAY too much stock in "at hand" instead of REALITY.  There's simply NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE of the fulfillments of those prophecies.

QuoteYou and I are both in the aging, senior citizen category, apparently.  It is only natural and wise that we should both wish to leave a legacy of truth behind us for the benefit of following generations before we pass on.  I give you credit for your zeal if it is done with honest intent.  But before God, I believe it is a zeal that is "not according to knowledge", as Paul once testified in Romans 10 of his zealous fellow-Jews that were rejecting the New Covenant in favor of the Old Covenant.  I grant that you may earnestly be thinking  you are "doing God service" by battling all Preterist views as heresy by your estimation.  Some errant views within the Preterist system DO need to be plowed under (such as the rejection of a bodily resurrection).  But the rest is based on sound interpretation that validates Christ's and the apostles' words that applied to that first-century generation.

  No, the preterist view is based upon imagination, conjecture, & guesswork, not FACTS.  For instance, saying that certain coins used by the Jews in Jerusalem were the "mark of the beast" is pure imagination. Surely you don't believe I'm stupid enough to believe such jive !  It destroyed much of your credibility with me ! Seems you've spent too much time reading the garbage of Alcazar, & the booksellers Preston, Gentry, etc. & not enough time with works by legitimate historians & researchers. Those modern pret authors are all quacks.

QuoteThe lone example you gave of Israel and Egypt is already history - not a prophesy to be fulfilled in our future.  Many of the  promises that you assume are intended for modern-day Israel were already fulfilled in the centuries following the post-exilic return. 

   No, not that many  pf those prophecies are yet fulfilled. A big one is the restoration of all the tribes as one nation again.

 

QuoteEgypt has LITERALLY remained "the basest of kingdoms" that would never be able to "exalt itself anymore above the nations", as God promised through Ezekiel 29:13-16.  This regathering of Egypt into becoming a "base kingdom" was promised to happen to them at the end of a LITERAL 40-year period of total devastation and dispersal - a period that has long passed into the history books.

  But the land of Judah was not a terror to Egypt til MODERN times. And God has not yet blessed Egypt, nor caused the peoples of Israel, Egypt, & Assyria to travel freely among each other. Heck, we don't even know who the descendants of the old Assyrians are ! Nor is God extensively worshipped in Egypt, as He said he will be.

QuoteMy free time has its limits, but if you are serious about having never seen any "proof", I might be able to do a series providing a historical chronology of first-century fulfillment that leans heavily on literal events that match the prophesied order as given in scripture.  Even though you yourself might dismiss the eye-witness of general Josephus turned historian, there are others who may want to give it consideration along with other historians' records of that time period. 

I have already said that I will try to look up the link and post the source that gives a step-by-step historical chronology of Daniel 11 with names and dates of past fulfillment.  It's WAY TOO MUCH for even me to type, but it's well worth reviewing.

  I appreciate that, even though I once did a study of those events, concentrating on the many wars between the Ptolemies & Seleucids. I found the story takes a leap into the future, as several mof the events in the latter parts of daniel 11 haven't happened yet, and  the "time of the end" is mentioned. The Seleucids ended in 63 BS when the last of their empire was conquered by the Romans under Pompey, and the Ptolemaic empire ended with Octavian, later Augustus Caesar, defeating Cleopatra VII's forces at Actium in 31 BC. (All queens of the Ptolemaic empire were called Berenice, Arsinoe, or Cleopatra.) Some people say the AOD was done by Antiochus Epiphanes III, but we see from Jesus' words in Matt. 24 that this event was still future. And it did NOT occur in the temple then standing in Jerusalem, so it's STILL future. Simple fact of history !

 The antitype of Daniel's AOD is Titus and the Romans.
Already fulfilled. Next case!

Quote from: lea on Tue May 12, 2020 - 18:21:32
The antitype of Daniel's AOD is Titus and the Romans.
Already fulfilled. Next case!

Newp ! It'll be fulfilled by the 'beast' & & the false prophet.

Quote from: robycop3 on Wed May 13, 2020 - 04:50:01
Newp ! It'll be fulfilled by the 'beast' & & the false prophet.

Again, you refuse to learn anything and attack back.

Learn to bow out gracefully, if you still can.

Quote from: lea on Mon May 18, 2020 - 12:11:54
Again, you refuse to learn anything and attack back.

Learn to bow out gracefully, if you still can.

So you won't have any opposition for your trash ?

There are others here besides me who see the falsehood of preterism.

Quote from: robycop3 on Mon May 18, 2020 - 16:23:07
So you won't have any opposition for your trash ?

There are others here besides me who see the falsehood of preterism.

You cannot fight those with a certain  brainwashed mind set.

They read the same words that all of us do, but heed only those outside references that others have written. Who also are only using educated guesses based on what seems to fit a narrow meaning of a  verse or two within the Holy words.

Quote from: Rella on Mon May 18, 2020 - 17:56:23
You cannot fight those with a certain  brainwashed mind set.

They read the same words that all of us do, but heed only those outside references that others have written. Who also are only using educated guesses based on what seems to fit a narrow meaning of a  verse or two within the Holy words.

I was a Christian for 15 years before I heard about "end time rapture madness."

So, you best stick to the Gospel of Grace instead of getting your blessings when Jesus returns!