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The scriptures clearly define what will happen before the rapture takes place, and it's not nearly as confusing as the false teachers of the age have made it. You can see a clear, scriptural timeline of events here: https://youtu.be/fe1DLQIE0Hs

  The rapture will occur just before the great trib begins.

FEW and I do mean few people conduct a truthful research of history or the Bible when it comes to the doctrine of the rapture and end times.   Doctrine is asserted with snippets of scripture used for justification of error.

IN THE YEAR 1517 the protestant reformation got underway with the publication by Martin Luther of his 95 theses.  The reformation was born amidst Biblical error abuses and discrepancies of the Vatican.  John Calvin, Zwingli and others contributed to a REAL search of scripture for truth.  Among these discovered truths was the identification of the Roman Catholic church as the beast of Revelation and the pope as its head (horn). According to the fathers of the reformation the beast wasn't a man, it was a religious system.  This conclusion was determined by means of a consistent application of Biblical interpretation which holds that when an animal is present in prophecy it usually refers to a system, an organization or a kingdom.   In the matter of the sea beast of Revelation and Daniel it's the Catholic church.  In the matter of the earth beast, also mentioned in Revelation, its the United States - born in the image of the sea beast. 

In the year 1545, the Catholic church convened the Council of Trent ostensibly to deal with the break away cities and states of the protestant reformation.  One of the organizations to be born of this council was the Jesuits, who pledge any and every effort be made to subvert protestantism and cause its adherents to return to the authority of the Holy See.   A major contributor to the written effort to subvert protestantism was a Jesuit named Francisco Ribera.  Before the end of the 16th century a series of his lectures and letters were published under the name of FUTURISM - also known as the Gap theory.

The GAP theory presented by Jesuit FUTURISM sweeps away 1,500 years of prophetic history and teaches that when Rome fell all prophecy stopped.  According to Futurist-Gap theory Biblical prophecy will not begin again until the time of the rapture approaches.   Thus all consideration and proofs of prophecy that teach the Roman Catholic church IS the anti-christ system and that the Pope IS the horn or leader of it are nullified in favor of a false interpretation.  For over three centuries, Catholic Futurism made no impact until a series of men revived the ideas and made them popular among protestants.   One of the men who promoted this heresy in the United States was Cyrus Scofield, publisher of the chain reference Bible that bears his name.  Another man was John Nelson Darby, who worked primarily in America - the earth beast of Revelation 13 created in the image of the sea beast (Vatican).

John Nelson Darby revived Catholic Futurism in the mid-1900's under the dual names of DISPENSATIONALISM and SUPERSESSIONISM / REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.   Three of the major points of contention he made popular were the Rapture, the Tribulation and anti-semitic attitudes concerning Jews at the time of the end.  All of these were adopted by the American protestant churches and all of them resulted in a subversion of ideology originally formulated by the fathers of the Reformation - (the great apostasy?). 

Today the American protestant churches march in lock-step with the Roman Catholic church.  One of protestantism's primary points is salvation by church membership rather than by faith in Christ.  Case in point is that if one dismisses or determines the Rapture is a false dogma, that person's devotion to Christ and even their salvation is vehemently questioned.   Is that the real issue?  It certainly is.   Although most protestants will give lip service to the belief that one must be saved in Jesus' name, in actual fact its church membership that is of utmost importance.  If one fails to attend regularly or fails to cough up a required 10% religious tax (tithe), one is said to be backslid.   Allegiance to the leading of the Holy Spirit is not a factor in such discussions.  Church membership is of primary importance and allegiance to the religious system is paramount.  No one dares question the theology of their shepherds - an attitude NOT justified by scripture (Acts 17:11).

I have attempted to publish a very brief outline of the theological problem.   To fill out additional details of any argument in favor of Reformation theology vs. Catholic anti-Christian error would require much more space than is possible here.  I encourage the reader to explore the persons and movements described herein.  All is not what it seems in our churches today.  Today we salute the Truth, but we do not seek it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

  No, the beast from the sea/antichrist will be one man, as will the beast from the earth, his sidekick, the false prophet. gabriel called him the prince of the people that shall destroy Jerusalem, Paul called him THE man of sin, & Rev calls him THE beast.
  The RCC is the harlot that tries to ride (control) the beast from the sea, which is both the man & his empire in Rev. 17. While the papacy & RCC once held great power, they were never masters of most of the world. They never ruled Asia nor the western hemisphere.
  The rapture will occur  just before the great trib starts. The antichrist will likely be in power, & he will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions of people, which the world will accept.

Quote from: robycop3 on Wed Jul 08, 2020 - 05:09:18
  they were never masters of most of the world. They never ruled Asia nor the western hemisphere.

That depends on your definition of ruling. The lack of a Pope sitting on a throne in the middle of DC or even NYC does not mean the subversive controlling of the world from within. All you need to do is google the Pope and his relationship to China and the goals they share..... albeit climate control for now...........

All one has to do is look at the religious affiliations of the US Government employees... starting from those working in the
White House... (ie... the current VP) ( and even the education of POTUS * see below) to the makeup of the make up of SCOTUS ...5 solid Catholics and Gorsch who was raised Catholic. along with 3 Jews.

*Trump attended a few Jesuit Universities in his college years. He attended Fordham University for a couple of years before transferring to Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, another Jesuit influenced education. That alone does not make one a Jesuit. Attending a Jesuit University for a couple of years does not necessarily make one a Jesuit-educated ordained priest of the Jesuits necessarily. However, is it enough for him to have been Jesuit indoctrinated or influenced? Or perhaps is he a Jesuit agent?

Trump DOES have influence of Jesuits surrounding him. Not only did he attend Jesuit Universities, but his children are also involved in Jesuit Universities and education. Ivanka attended Jesuit University Georgetown for a time before transferring to Wharton as her father. Eric attended Georgetown University and became boardmember at Georgetown. So what does this have to do with Donald Trump to make him a Jesuit?
https://jimdukeperspective.com/donald-trump-a-jesuit/

It IS happening and you are blinded to it.....

Quote from: Choir Loft on Tue Jul 07, 2020 - 09:01:49


Today the American protestant churches march in lock-step with the Roman Catholic church. One of protestantism's primary points is salvation by church membership rather than by faith in Christ.  Case in point is that if one dismisses or determines the Rapture is a false dogma, that person's devotion to Christ and even their salvation is vehemently questioned.   

It is true the Catholics do NOT emphsize faith in Jesus.

But I know of no Protestant church that does not, save for some of the odd fringe ones that are ore cults then anything else... such as the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. (At least Jesus is not in their "sales"  pitches.)

I do know only of two mainline Protestant ones who emphasize church attendance is necessary for salvation, because I know members in each and how they believe.  The Baptists and The Lutherans... up here.

I do not know of any that demands a 10% tithe. Not even of the Baptist or Lutheran one. The one lady who is so fearful her son will not be saved cause he does not attend weekly sinply could not afford it.... period

And the Lutheran one consideres a dollar a week giving to be enough as the church has many wealthy members....

Both of these have been life long members.

Now as to the lifelong Lutheran member... They had not every heard of the "rapture". Had no clue and I had to give them and education.

The Baptist one.... yes.

But I , who had been of the Presbyterian church since birth in 1947 had never heard of it until the late 1970s ot early 1980s
and strictly by channel surfing happened upon a Jack Van Impe program.... ( my first )  and then a few years later happened upon a John Hagee one.

I bought into the pre-trib rapture out of necessity.... the necessity being that of the need to believe God WOULD provide an escape before it was too late for the believers. But mention that word to any Presby member and they look at you like you HAVE joined a cult. It simply is not taught in my church.

Enough said on that.

I think you better come down from the Choir Loft cause as all the hot air is rising, it is filling you will very odd ideas.

  The RCC had its biggest opportunity in the US while JFK was POTUS, but we say little of their influence then. But it seems REAL Christianity is alive & well in the thousands of small congregations thruout the land, many of which say they're non-denominational.
  My indy fundy Baptist church is such in title only. Actually, we're pretty non-denom, with only the Bible as our instruction book, & we don't follow any man-made doctrines of faith/worship. We have no choir nor music, but not because of "religious" reasons. We have no "Sunday school", but only worship services. We simply meet to praise & worship God, having Communion at least 4 times a year, & foot-washing twice a year, within weather constraints. our main Bible versions are the NKJV & NASV. We keep everything fairly-simple.

Quote from: Choir Loft on Tue Jul 07, 2020 - 09:01:49
FEW and I do mean few people conduct a truthful research of history or the Bible when it comes to the doctrine of the rapture and end times.   Doctrine is asserted with snippets of scripture used for justification of error.
....

There are times when historical research is a help, but it can never replace the actual written Word of God. God said long ago that before He does something, He tells His servants of it (Isaiah 42:9). He has, and it's written down already in His Word.

The Reformer's theory about the Catholic Church and the pope as the Antichrist failed. That should have been your main... point of evidence discovered in your research. How do we know?

It's because of what God's Word as written reveals. In the same generation of the appearance of the final Antichrist, that also is to be the generation of Christ's literal return to this earth to gather His Church, and begin His earthly reign with His elect from Jerusalem. If you deny this, then you show you are simply on an agenda of men, because this is clearly written of in God's Word (Matthew 24; Zechariah 14; 2 Thessalonians 2; Revelation 11, 13, 16, 19; Daniel 2, 7, 9, 11, 12).

Jesus did not return in the time of the Reformers. We are still waiting for Lord Jesus' return today.

Quote from: Choir Loft on Tue Jul 07, 2020 - 09:01:49
FEW and I do mean few people conduct a truthful research of history or the Bible when it comes to the doctrine of the rapture and end times.   Doctrine is asserted with snippets of scripture used for justification of error.

IN THE YEAR 1517 the protestant reformation got underway with the publication by Martin Luther of his 95 theses.  The reformation was born amidst Biblical error abuses and discrepancies of the Vatican.  John Calvin, Zwingli and others contributed to a REAL search of scripture for truth.  Among these discovered truths was the identification of the Roman Catholic church as the beast of Revelation and the pope as its head (horn). According to the fathers of the reformation the beast wasn't a man, it was a religious system.  This conclusion was determined by means of a consistent application of Biblical interpretation which holds that when an animal is present in prophecy it usually refers to a system, an organization or a kingdom.   In the matter of the sea beast of Revelation and Daniel it's the Catholic church.  In the matter of the earth beast, also mentioned in Revelation, its the United States - born in the image of the sea beast. 

In the year 1545, the Catholic church convened the Council of Trent ostensibly to deal with the break away cities and states of the protestant reformation.  One of the organizations to be born of this council was the Jesuits, who pledge any and every effort be made to subvert protestantism and cause its adherents to return to the authority of the Holy See.   A major contributor to the written effort to subvert protestantism was a Jesuit named Francisco Ribera.  Before the end of the 16th century a series of his lectures and letters were published under the name of FUTURISM - also known as the Gap theory.

The GAP theory presented by Jesuit FUTURISM sweeps away 1,500 years of prophetic history and teaches that when Rome fell all prophecy stopped.  According to Futurist-Gap theory Biblical prophecy will not begin again until the time of the rapture approaches.   Thus all consideration and proofs of prophecy that teach the Roman Catholic church IS the anti-christ system and that the Pope IS the horn or leader of it are nullified in favor of a false interpretation.  For over three centuries, Catholic Futurism made no impact until a series of men revived the ideas and made them popular among protestants.   One of the men who promoted this heresy in the United States was Cyrus Scofield, publisher of the chain reference Bible that bears his name.  Another man was John Nelson Darby, who worked primarily in America - the earth beast of Revelation 13 created in the image of the sea beast (Vatican).

John Nelson Darby revived Catholic Futurism in the mid-1900's under the dual names of DISPENSATIONALISM and SUPERSESSIONISM / REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.   Three of the major points of contention he made popular were the Rapture, the Tribulation and anti-semitic attitudes concerning Jews at the time of the end.  All of these were adopted by the American protestant churches and all of them resulted in a subversion of ideology originally formulated by the fathers of the Reformation - (the great apostasy?). 

Today the American protestant churches march in lock-step with the Roman Catholic church.  One of protestantism's primary points is salvation by church membership rather than by faith in Christ.  Case in point is that if one dismisses or determines the Rapture is a false dogma, that person's devotion to Christ and even their salvation is vehemently questioned.   Is that the real issue?  It certainly is.   Although most protestants will give lip service to the belief that one must be saved in Jesus' name, in actual fact its church membership that is of utmost importance.  If one fails to attend regularly or fails to cough up a required 10% religious tax (tithe), one is said to be backslid.   Allegiance to the leading of the Holy Spirit is not a factor in such discussions.  Church membership is of primary importance and allegiance to the religious system is paramount.  No one dares question the theology of their shepherds - an attitude NOT justified by scripture (Acts 17:11).

I have attempted to publish a very brief outline of the theological problem.   To fill out additional details of any argument in favor of Reformation theology vs. Catholic anti-Christian error would require much more space than is possible here.  I encourage the reader to explore the persons and movements described herein.  All is not what it seems in our churches today.  Today we salute the Truth, but we do not seek it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

This post contained a lot of good information.  But what is up with the bolded sentence?  It seems to contradict the rest of the post.   

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Oct 23, 2020 - 10:46:00
This post contained a lot of good information.  But what is up with the bolded sentence?  It seems to contradict the rest of the post.

What is that about, with doing a re-post of another persons post? Is that really allowed on this Forum?? If so, then it means everyone... here can copy the post of another, and keep re-posting it! Doing that certainly is NOT... going to cause readers to believe it as actually having any authentic value anyway, and it becomes even MORE suspect with those who do such re-posts!

Quote from: dpr on Mon Oct 26, 2020 - 11:01:46
What is that about, with doing a re-post of another persons post? Is that really allowed on this Forum?? If so, then it means everyone... here can copy the post of another, and keep re-posting it! Doing that certainly is NOT... going to cause readers to believe it as actually having any authentic value anyway, and it becomes even MORE suspect with those who do such re-posts!

What are you talking about?  It's customary to quote a post if you're responding to it... which I am.  I'm asking about something in the post that seemed idiosyncratic.

Quote from: dpr on Mon Oct 26, 2020 - 11:01:46

QuoteQuote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Oct 23, 2020 - 10:46:00
This post contained a lot of good information.  But what is up with the bolded sentence?  It seems to contradict the rest of the post.

What is that about, with doing a re-post of another persons post? Is that really allowed on this Forum?? If so, then it means everyone... here can copy the post of another, and keep re-posting it! Doing that certainly is NOT... going to cause readers to believe it as actually having any authentic value anyway, and it becomes even MORE suspect with those who do such re-posts!

Quoting an entire post is no different then your choosing a specific verse to emphasize.

IN FACT... If you chose to respond throughout a quote it is convenient if you change the color of your answer. And offers great clarity

Quote from: robycop3 on Thu Jul 09, 2020 - 05:07:45
  The RCC had its biggest opportunity in the US while JFK was POTUS, but we say little of their influence then. But it seems REAL Christianity is alive & well in the thousands of small congregations thruout the land, many of which say they're non-denominational.
  My indy fundy Baptist church is such in title only. Actually, we're pretty non-denom, with only the Bible as our instruction book, & we don't follow any man-made doctrines of faith/worship. We have no choir nor music, but not because of "religious" reasons. We have no "Sunday school", but only worship services. We simply meet to praise & worship God, having Communion at least 4 times a year, & foot-washing twice a year, within weather constraints. our main Bible versions are the NKJV & NASV. We keep everything fairly-simple.

The influence of the Roman Catholic church has nothing to do with President Kennedy.  That is a dead issue literally as well as figuratively.  It was a political issue at the time of JFK'S run for office, not a religious one.  I know because I debated on Kennedy's behalf during his campaign. (It wasn't difficult to make jokes about Richard Nixon - but the joke was on us because he got elected later anyway.)

The theological issue has been decided by the gradual erosion of main line protestant denominations as well as non-denominational churches, which has been cultivated by the RCC for decades.   I know this because I was in seminary in the late 1970's when the issue was identified by internal Protestant leadership.   The laity never knew of the debate.   They still don't.

Non-denominational churches are not immune from the infection of RCC heresy. 

Non-denominational churches exist without any sort of oversight mechanism.  Their theology is determined by the market standard of filling seats and gleaning donations, not Biblical LAW or standards.   Case in point is a sermon I once heard in such a church where the speaker admitted his goal was, "to preach happy talk to fill seats."  Non-denominational leaders have the attitude of mini-popes in that they cop the idea their interpretation is above reproach.  Financial irresponsibility is the keystone of most non-denominational churches.  They overspend that which God has given them.  According to a recent survey most churches are in debt to the amount of three to four million dollars - with no appreciable means to retire that debt.  Non-denominational churches DO NOT have any sort of unblemished history of knowing or appreciating Biblical LAW or Truth.   Neither do they efficiently dispense that which they know and believe.  In other words, evangelicals are evangelical in name only.   They do NOTHING to promote the faith.  Virtually all of their effort is focused upon attaining pledges for donations, which they lose like water through a leaky bucket.   

On the other hand, denominational churches, such as Southern Baptist variety espouse RCC theology of salvation by membership rather than LAW & GRACE.  For example, a man is considered backslid if he doesn't attend services on a regular basis or if he fails to contribute 10% of his earnings (a matter of Jewish LAW which is promoted despite the fact tithing isn't mentioned in the NT at all.)  American preachers always have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket.

I heard a Baptist preacher close his sermon on grace by admonishing the congregation to, "go out and SIN this week that grace may abound."   Most denominations except the Baptist church have made official statements that the Bible IS NO LONGER accepted as THE Word of God, but simply as A Word of God - making Holy Writ of equal status with every other religious document or human work of literature.   Consequently the spirit of these churches has been vomited out of God's mouth (Revelation 3:16b).   

Most American churches are ICHABOD (1 Samual 4:21) in that they have denied the efficacy of the Holy Bible, denied God's LAW and promoted SIN and wickedness as matters to be embraced and supported.

America and its churches have thus judged themselves to be unworthy of God's protection.  

How long can such a nation and such people stand without divine providence?   Not long.

It is time to REPENT of our SINS and LAWlessness.   

The nation is already lost and beyond redemption, BUT we may be able to enjoy God's protection for ourselves and our families IF we repent of our SINs and wicked ways.

Watch and learn pilgrim.    While you're watching - repent.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Quote from: Choir Loft on Wed Oct 28, 2020 - 08:16:46


It is time to REPENT of our SINS and LAWlessness.   

The nation is already lost and beyond redemption, BUT we may be able to enjoy God's protection for ourselves and our families IF we repent of our SINs and wicked ways.

I agree

Quote from: robycop3 on Wed Jul 08, 2020 - 05:09:18
  No, the beast from the sea/antichrist will be one man, as will the beast from the earth, his sidekick, the false prophet. gabriel called him the prince of the people that shall destroy Jerusalem, Paul called him THE man of sin, & Rev calls him THE beast.
  The RCC is the harlot that tries to ride (control) the beast from the sea, which is both the man & his empire in Rev. 17. While the papacy & RCC once held great power, they were never masters of most of the world. They never ruled Asia nor the western hemisphere.
  The rapture will occur  just before the great trib starts. The antichrist will likely be in power, & he will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions of people, which the world will accept.

You are quoting RCC doctrine here.  Please reread my earlier post.   The problem with the post-protestant church is that it has become ignorant of the interpretations of the protestant reformers and too eager to embrace Catholic doctrine, which has everyone spinning their wheels (as it was designed to do).

NO INTERPRETATION of Revelation is complete without a parallel examination of the book of Daniel.   In Daniel the use of animals as prophetic symbols is established.   The form continues in Revelation.

In short the meaning is thus:  an animal is always meant to refer to a system, a nation or an organization.   Consult a legitimate interpretive work of literature here NOT some clown on YouTube.

Thus the anti-Christ beast of Daniel and Revelation is a RELIGIOUS SYSTEM, not a man.   For instance, Revelation 13:1 says a beast with many horns would rise out of the sea. (We're not talking about Darth Maul here.  We're looking at a religious system with many horns/leaders.)  Revelation 17:15 interprets the sea as " multitudes and nations and tongues"  The meaning is clear.  The anti-Christ beast is a religious SYSTEM.  What type of system will it be?  Again in Revelation 13:1 it is stated the beast system has blasphemous names on its heads or horns.  A head or horn is a representation of a leader.   In Daniel 7:25 we read of blaspheme against the Most High.   Who would do such a thing?   The last interpretation comes from the Roman Catholic church itself.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth." - Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V.

Please note that the use of blaspheme is granted by the SYSTEM, not the head or pope.  The Pope is thus described by his own religious system as god.

In Revelation 13:3 we read the prediction that one of the heads or horns of the beast (Pope of the RCC) would be slain, but that it would later be healed.  Here are a few items from history to prove a point...point being that the anti-Christ horn/head is the Pope, not some distant future figure invented by the Jesuits.

Feb 20, 1797 - Pope Pius VI arrested by French General Berthier and the Vatican property confiscated.   Pius died in prison two years later - the head of the beast dies.

1929 Lateran Accord - a treaty that recognized the pope as the sovereign of Vatican City was granted by fascist dictator Benito Mussolini.  The Vatican was paid $100 million for real estate seizures and allowed to reinstate its property holdings in Rome.   An article appeared in TIME magazine celebrating the reinstatement of the papacy.   The head miraculously is healed.

AGAIN in Daniel 7:25 we read that the beast will "change the appointed times and laws."

The forth commandment says to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy (separate the day unto God).  That day is SATURDAY, but the RCC changed it to Sunday.   Why?  They did it simply because they could, and post-protestant churches follow in lock step with Catholic doctrine without even asking why or consulting their Bibles. 

We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Again the predictions of Daniel come to pass.  The beast, RCC, will change the appointed times and laws. 

The first thing a protestant does when he or she enters their church on Sunday morning is to SIN, because Sunday is NOT the sabbath.

Saturday belongs to God and should be observed as Holy/belonging to God.   
Sunday belongs to the NFL - everybody knows this.

Catholics spurn God's law and protestants either don't know any better or don't care.  "You have to work hard to be stupid." - John Wayne

Last but not least is the RCC's corruption of the idea of the rapture.   Key point here and often argued among people who only follow YouTube talking heads instead of studying the Bible.  Saints are taken when Christ comes to earth the second time. 

Who are the saints? 

The point is hotly debated among protestants who are unaware of RCC theology and assertion.   The saints are members of the Roman Catholic church.  Everyone else is excluded. (That means protestants, dear reader.)

There's much more to this intellectual boon-doggle, but for the most part its grossly misunderstood by people who mistakenly claim they know the Bible (or history or RCC doctrine that forms the basis of what post-protestants fervently defend.)

I can go on and on with this (and will probably be forced to do so by brainwashed people who refuse to study their Bibles).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The rapture doctrine comes from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJB):
"16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I will tell you why I included verse 16 in a moment.

The catching up together of those who are alive when the Lord returns, that is the rapture. So we see there will indeed be a rapture. The controversy with the rapture is not a matter of whether it is real or not. The controversy is over the timing.

They that teach the early rapture doctrine have a gross misunderstanding of scripture or are simply twisting scripture to mislead true Christians. They teach that Christians are getting a special get out of persecution free card to leave this world early. This is completely wrong and I will show you why it is such a dangerous doctrine to believe.

Let's look at the verses again and see if they can give us any information regarding the timing of the rapture. In verse 16 we see the Lord returns and at that time the dead in Christ shall rise first. This is important. The dead in Christ rise first. Then going directly to the next words in verse 17 it says "then". Then meaning after what just preceded. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together.

What does this mean? This tells us the resurrection happens first and THEN the rapture happens. Why is this important? Because if we can figure out when the resurrection happens then we can know exactly when the rapture happens because it takes place right after.

Thankfully God is not the author of confusion and has not left us without sound doctrine so that we are not left in the dark concerning these things.

The Bible tells us 5 different times in the gospel of John when the resurrection takes place:

John 11:24 KJB
"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

John 6:54 KJB
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44 KJB
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:40 KJB
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:39 KJB
"And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

The word is clear, the resurrection happens on the "last day". Therefore the rapture also happens on the last day.

The reason that Satan's ministers have decided to teach this false timing rapture doctrine is because scripture tells us the Antichrist must first come before the end. If you are expecting the true messiah Jesus Christ to return before the very end to save you from the persecution of the Antichrist and his wicked followers then you are actually going to get the false messiah/Antichrist who comes to deceive the world into believing that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJB
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Christians have been martyred (killed for their faith) the last 2000 years since Christ came. They are being martyred now, even openly in eastern countries. And we will continue to be martyred until the very end. Few will survive to take part in the rapture. Nobody is getting an escape card in these last days.

Quote from: BlessedCreator on Tue Nov 03, 2020 - 14:02:17
The rapture doctrine comes from 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJB):
"16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Interpretations of Rapture, tribulation, the man-beast, etc. are derived from Roman Catholic anti-Protestant doctrine.  Please reread my earlier posts, which give a detailed history on this OR DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

PLEASE DO NOT reiterate scripture to justify an erroneous doctrine(s).  It does nothing to clarify the issue or edify the church.   In fact, it IS the source of much confusion and misunderstanding.  That was its intent, btw. 

Are you not aware of the multitude of different opinions regarding the rapture, timing of the tribulation, the millennium (which is NOT a reign of Christ) and so on?  The differences cause DIVISION not unity.   
Have you not read St. Paul's admonition for unity among the saints?  Unity is based upon scripture, not snippets of text justifying a demonic religion (RCC).  Unity is based upon love of Christ NOT love of doctrine.

Biblical teaching about End Times is also based upon the prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, passages from Proverbs, Psalms, Moses and the minor prophets.   I seldom read or hear ANYTHING about OT teaching based upon the Tanakh (Jewish word for Old Testament) from post-protestant Christians EXCEPT when its debauched or perverted into a doctrine God did not intend.   (Or when its used to justify tithing, which the NT does not.) Case in point is the doctrine of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology, which is an anti-semitic doctrine ALSO originating with the Vatican.

Review your own doctrine of Rapture, tribulation, millennium, etc.   Do it dispassionately.   

Do you not understand it's riddled with anti-semitic ideology?  Do you not understand it has huge logical gaps that can only be explained by understanding the history of how it was concocted?

THE ENTIRE BASIS OF RCC END TIMES THEOLOGY IS TO DELAY REPENTANCE AND SALVATION.

This is entirely demonic in nature.   How does the delay factor affect lives?  It suggests that the ultimate arrival of Jesus Christ for the second time (He will come to Earth 3 times according to scripture, not just twice.) is an event in the distant future.  RCC doctrine suggests the man-beast is something that comes later in history, not a religious system that has already tortured the earth for fifteen hundred years.  Revelation clearly makes predictions which have already come to pass.  The Bible suggests the blessed hope is imminent, while RCC doctrine admits only to the possibility of it in the distant future.   The Bible says the day to repent and get right with God IS NOW.  RCC doctrine says the church has got us covered.   

According to RCC doctrine, as well as post-protestant belief, church membership saves - not the blood of Christ. 

While the blood is an admitted necessity by the church, very few members can explain why or how it works.  Instead they use scripture, religious slogans and childish End Times fictions to fill in illogical gaps.  To the church's way of thinking - Individual reckoning with God, repentance and peace making with God isn't as important as tithing and regular attendance at services.   For instance, excommunication or eviction from membership in the RCC is tantamount to a judgment of hell fire.  The blood of Christ has nothing to do with it.  Can a Catholic Priest wash away the blood? Failure to regularly attend a post-protestant church is considered to be backsliding attitude - a rejection of Christ resulting in hell.  St. Paul says Christians ought to attend worship services. Nowhere does he say one risks hell if he or she doesn't.  It's about membership in both situations, not heart felt repentance and peace making with God.

All post-protestant interpretations of End Times are demonic.  They are deeply anti-semitic and do not generally imply a need for repentance.

It IS TIME to repent.   All of us need to repent of our wickedness.   We are each affected by sinful society every day and need to come humbly to Christ often to make it right between us and our loving God.

To fail to do so, to continue to cling to demonic doctrine, is to risk divine punishment earthly error or perhaps the Second Death itself.   God's blessings begin with repentance, not a comic book interpretation of the most important prophecies God ever gave to mankind.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Quote from: BCHYH on Sun Jun 21, 2020 - 08:43:28
The scriptures clearly define what will happen before the rapture takes place, and it's not nearly as confusing as the false teachers of the age have made it. You can see a clear, scriptural timeline of events here: https://youtu.be/fe1DLQIE0Hs

YouTube talking heads do not suffice to provide an adequate interpretation of scripture. 

The entire doctrine of the Rapture is bogus.  Even those who support this fantasy disagree amongst themselves.

In Luke 17:35-37 we read a passage many Rapturists accept as describing what happens to the justified.

One will be taken and the other left. "Where, Lord?" they asked.
Jesus answered, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

Rapturists falsely believe the just are wisked away to glory with Christ, BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT THE PASSAGE SAYS.

Read it again dear soul.

Those who REMAIN are the just.  Those who are TAKEN are removed BY VULTURES to a place where the dead are gathered.

In other words, SINNERS are removed to HELL.   The just, the believers, the righteous, remain.

The rapture, if such a thing really happens, isn't what Christians think it will be.  It will be the operation of demons taking SINNERS to the Lake of Fire - the Second Death.

Read it again.   Or don't and keep believing a lie.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The parable of the Wheat and Tares is also clear. The Tares are removed first and BURNED.

Quote from: Choir Loft on Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 09:30:59
The entire doctrine of the Rapture is bogus.  Even those who support this fantasy disagree amongst themselves.

In Luke 17:35-37 we read a passage many Rapturists accept as describing what happens to the justified.

One will be taken and the other left. "Where, Lord?" they asked.
Jesus answered, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."

Rapturists falsely believe the just are wisked away to glory with Christ, BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT THE PASSAGE SAYS.

Read it again dear soul.

Those who REMAIN are the just.  Those who are TAKEN are removed BY VULTURES to a place where the dead are gathered.

In other words, SINNERS are removed to HELL.   The just, the believers, the righteous, remain.

The rapture, if such a thing really happens, isn't what Christians think it will be.  It will be the operation of demons taking SINNERS to the Lake of Fire - the Second Death.

Solid post.  It's amazing how thick people can be when you try to explain this to them.  Apparently, it's always been that way...

Amos 5:18    Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light!

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Nov 12, 2021 - 10:36:54


Amos 5:18    Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light!

I may modify this in the morning as right now I am so mentally tired I may not be reading or understanding
this....

If Amos 5:18 is true, then is Titus 2:13 wrong?

NASB 1995
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

I guess it depends on one's perspective. In Mathew 24:30, it says

Quote30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Also Mathew 24:29 states that AFTER the tribulation (the Greatest one in History or that shall EVER be) the gathering of the elect will commence.

Quote from: Rella on Mon Nov 15, 2021 - 20:39:07
I may modify this in the morning as right now I am so mentally tired I may not be reading or understanding
this....

If Amos 5:18 is true, then is Titus 2:13 wrong?

NASB 1995
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

There's no conflict between the verses.  Consider who they are written to...

Amos addresses Israel and basically tells them, "when your dad gets home, you're gonna get it!"

Paul addresses Titus and the churches at Corinth and Crete.  This is basically "when your dad gets home, he will deal with your brother!"

Quote from: Choir Loft on Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 09:30:59YouTube talking heads do not suffice to provide an adequate interpretation of scripture.

This is true of most sources.

Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #17 on: Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 09:30:59The entire doctrine of the Rapture is bogus.  Even those who support this fantasy disagree amongst themselves.

The entire doctrine of a secret rapture is bogus. The word rapture meaning to be caught up is not bogus as far as a bible truth, only it being secret IS bogus.

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSTRevealtion 11:12-15~"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The seventh angel always represents the END OF THE WORLD~the LAST TRUMP, etc.

Here we see the phrase "Come up hither"~which is the very meaning of the word rapture. So, the word is connected with a true biblical doctrine, only this rapture is far from being secret! It is everywhere declares to be VISIBLE~a REVELATION~where EVERY EYE shall see Christ's coming.

Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #17 on: Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 09:30:59In Luke 17:35-37 we read a passage many Rapturists accept as describing what happens to the justified.

One will be taken and the other left. "Where, Lord?" they asked.
Jesus answered, "Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather."  Rapturists falsely believe the just are wisked away to glory with Christ, BUT THAT ISN'T WHAT THE PASSAGE SAYS.

Read it again dear soul.

Those who REMAIN are the just.  Those who are TAKEN are removed BY VULTURES to a place where the dead are gathered.

Briefly~You actually need to read this again.

First~the fowls of the air do not remove the wicked away It is THEM which remain because they have been DESTROYED by Christ and his holy armies coming with him. The fowls of the air are invited by God to a great feast prepared for them by God per:

QuoteEzekiel 39:17-21~17"And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan. And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD. And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them."

Again John using Ezekiel 39 said this:

QuoteRevelation 19:16-19~"And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

This is what Christ was referencing in Matthew 24:28! More could be said, but enough for now.

Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #17 on: Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 09:30:59In other words, SINNERS are removed to HELL.   The just, the believers, the righteous, remain.

Wrong, SO wrong. At Christ's coming he shall destroy all the living wicked...................he calls UP his people INTO THE AIR they shall appear WITH HIM to destroy the wicked at which time the judgement will take place and after that, this world shall be destroyed WITH FIRE which WILL BE THE LAKE OF FIRE where ALL the wicked shall perish forever WHICH IS the second and final death for them! The RIGHTEOUS REMAIN to inherit the new earth and the new heavens!  Noah was IN THE ARK and God shut the door before the wicked were destroyed with a flood. Lot was OUT OF Sodom before God destroyed it with fire.

Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #17 on: Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 09:30:59

SO you think the  VULTURES are demons so wrong again. Besides, no one has to take the wicked anywhere they will perish IN the lake of fire which will be THIS WORLD when it is destroyed by fire in that day. They will perish with the world that they so much love more than the God who created it!

Quote from: Choir Loft Reply #17 on: Sat Nov 06, 2021 - 09:30:59Read it again.   Or don't and keep believing a lie.

You need to heed your own advice.

Quote from: Rella on Mon Nov 15, 2021 - 20:39:07
I may modify this in the morning as right now I am so mentally tired I may not be reading or understanding
this....

If Amos 5:18 is true, then is Titus 2:13 wrong?

NASB 1995
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

"BOTH" are true. For the wicked, it shall be a day of darkness and not light~for the righteous it is our blessed hope~it is what we believe in, and with patience wait and desire that day.

The second coming of Christ and the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked is one and other same event taking place on the last day living in this world as business as usual.