Christian Forums

Quote from: DanielConway on Sat Aug 01, 2020 - 10:24:09
Define your terms.  I don't think you believe that when John sees a beast arising up out of the sea or out of the land he means there are going to be literal monsters stalking around the planet.

Why not?

They are symbols, AKA metaphors, for kingdoms.

They may be symbols for kingdoms but you definitively cannot say they physically will not be.

To address your assumption of what I door do not believe, I believe both symbol and kingdom but not metaphors because whatever arises from sea or land will not be from our heavenly Father but will certainly be representative of a kingdom and its fall.

By the same argument the bowl judgements poured out on the beast and his kingdom are probably symbols, metaphors, for the horrible afflictions that God poured out on the Roman Empire during the Imperial crisis, barbarian invasions, plagues, famines, civil wars, invasions by the Persian Empire, and such.

Your use of probably tells a lot. It tells me you are not certain of what you say here.

  You see, it is possible for a metaphor to represent something quite real.  I suggest you make a study of the apocalyptic literature that was floating around the Roman Empire during this period.  It was a genre unto itself of which Revelation was only one.  Admittedly Revelation was the only canonical apocalyptic, but God often condescends to speak to us in a language we understand, and to understand how the church of John's day would have interpreted Revelation you would do to make a study of this aspect of the culture.



Spin things as you will. When God does deem  to speak to us in a language we understand,no matter what age it is... metaphorically is not the way.

There is simply no way to make this verse applicable to a book of metaphors.

Rev22:19

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Daniel was told. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Revelation IS the time of the end.It is prophecy as God said.

Jaime -  you need to re-read Romans 11 and pay close attention to the wording. Paul includes in "Israel" those who are enemies of the gospel. And he also says that the wild branches that got grafted in are supported by the root, and not the other way around.

I think YOU need to re-read. The grafted back on natural branches are NOT the enemies of God. Those that remain broken off ARE enemies of God.

There is ethnic Israel and the Israel of God. I am not saying at all that ethnic Israel is rhe Israel of God. Yes many or most of Ethnic Israel are enemies of God. But NOT the grafted back on ones. The fact they are grafted back on gives them the same starus as us, the grafted on wild branches or Gentiles. The true Israel of God, the olive tree  consists of grafted on natural and wild branches, NOT ALL of either by any stretch. The context of the texts tells you which one is referred to Ethnic or National Isreal or the Israel of God, which is the people of God. The word Israel has dual meanings in this regard, and not interchangeable.

When it says all of Israel will be saved, I believe it is referring to the Israel of God or His people, the hearers and responders to the gospel. We both know that ethnic or national Israel IS NOT in that category. Will more and more convert in the future? I don't know. We do know from Romans 11 that a partial blindness has befallen the Majority of the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Until we individual wild branches convert and are grafted on, WE were enemies of God.

I never said the grafted back ( or those never broken off) were enemies.  I was saying those who are broken off and are enemies are still part of Israel.

You are making a false separation between branches. 

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 07:04:18
I never said the grafted back ( or those never broken off) were enemies.  I was saying those who are broken off and are enemies are still part of Israel.

You are making a false separation between branches.

They are a part of ethnic or natural Israel.  They are not a part of Spiritual Israel, i.e., the children of promise.  They are the ones counted as children of Abraham, i.e., Spiritual Israel.

Rom 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7  and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8  This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

You are correct 4WD. We have to keep up with which Israel we are talking about physical Israel or Spiritual Israel. We as Christians are part of the true Israel, spiritual Israel. The enemies of God that are Jewish are not part of true Israel or Spiritual Israel. Dave, I assume we differ on semantics or something because this is such an elementary concept.

And yes both types of branches grafted on are supported by the root. The only difference in the roots is the natural branches are Jewish and the wild branches are Gentile. Attached to the root, they ARE God's people. If they are not attached to the root, they are enemies of God. THAT is what Paul was talking about.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 07:27:20
They are a part of ethnic or natural Israel.  They are not a part of Spiritual Israel,

Israel is Israel.  Period.  there is not a "natural" and a "spiritual" division. 

Yes there is Dave you are missing it.

Wrong -  I used to "see" it too.  But later on realized it was an evangelical christian myth.  Part of replacement theology which I ultimately rejected.

Quote from: Jaime on Tue Aug 04, 2020 - 17:46:29
The true Israel IS the righteous remnant. The natural branches that have been broken off of the olive tree are lost (the remnant of thebonesbvrafted BACK on is the true Israel of God, along with the grafted on Gentile Christians). The broken Off branches that have been grafted BACK on CANNOT BE ENEMIES of God, they are HIS! The ones NOT grafted back on ARE ememies of God and NOT the true Israel of God. The Israel of  God is simply His people, Jew or Gentile.

+1

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 05:08:30
Jaime -  you need to re-read Romans 11 and pay close attention to the wording. Paul includes in "Israel" those who are enemies of the gospel. And he also says that the wild branches that got grafted in are supported by the root, and not the other way around.

The root is Jesus, not Israel.

Rella, consider your own citations.  The Book of Daniel makes extensive use of metaphor.  The statue that Daniel sees with the head of gold, the chest of silver, the waist of bronze and the legs of iron and iron mixed with clay is deciphered by scripture itself as a symbol, a metaphor for the kingdoms that will arise in the ancient near east.  If you cite and presumably believe and understand Daniel you are essentially compelled to acknowledge God's use of symbolism, metaphor, to communicate his intentions to his people.  Consider the four beasts of Daniel's dream.  Symbols, metaphors for the same kingdoms in the same period.  Do you believe that? Try to be consistent in the rules you adopt for biblical interpretation.

Quote from: DanielConway on Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 13:26:21
Rella, consider your own citations.  The Book of Daniel makes extensive use of metaphor.  The statue that Daniel sees with the head of gold, the chest of silver, the waist of bronze and the legs of iron and iron mixed with clay is deciphered by scripture itself as a symbol, a metaphor for the kingdoms that will arise in the ancient near east.  If you cite and presumably believe and understand Daniel you are essentially compelled to acknowledge God's use of symbolism, metaphor, to communicate his intentions to his people.  Consider the four beasts of Daniel's dream.  Symbols, metaphors for the same kingdoms in the same period.  Do you believe that? Try to be consistent in the rules you adopt for biblical interpretation.

Daniel,

Why can you not understand that a metaphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

This is not descriptive of the vision/dream that Nebuchadnezzar had.

The head of gold, the chest of silver, the waist of bronze and the legs of iron and iron mixed with clay was a specific thought in Nebuchadnezzar's mind that he demanded what it meant.

It was able to be precisely explained by Daniel,down to the minutest detail.

Yes, God uses a lot of symbolism, through out the entire bible.... but it isnot a metaphor of which you seem to be hung up on.

Cambridge Dictionery defines it as

an expression, often found in literature, that describes a person or object by referring to something that is considered to have similar characteristics to that person or object:

"The mind is an ocean" and "the city is a jungle" are both metaphors.

Metaphor and simile are the most commonly used figures of speech in everyday language.

I see  Nebuchadnezzar's dream as something he specifically dreamed. Of an odd looking statue, that he needed explained and his statue was that of varied varied kingdoms.

That may have been an accurate interpretation but also it would have been possible to create a physical example of that statue which to my mind keeps it away from the metaphor realm.


One that could well have sat between a map or reminder of each and every kingdom that Daniel had mentioned.

The kingdoms were very real. So would a representative statue.

Not something quasi elusive as a real metaphor which may be representative of
of an idea, but remains an idea rather then fact.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 08:53:57Israel is Israel.  Period.  there is not a "natural" and a "spiritual" division.

Dave, WHATEVER you are smoking, PLEASE STOP~you are not reading the word of God very clearly. 

AMEN to That RB ! ! !

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Aug 05, 2020 - 05:08:30Jaime -  you need to re-read Romans 11 and pay close attention to the wording. Paul includes in "Israel" those who are enemies of the gospel. And he also says that the wild branches that got grafted in are supported by the root, and not the other way around.

Greetings Dave~Jaime, you, and I, can and should constantly re-read all of Romans, for it is not as easy as many think that it is. You said:

Quote from: DaveW Reply #141 on: Yesterday at 05:08:30Paul includes in "Israel" those who are enemies of the gospel.

WHICH ISRAEL is the question! Let us consider these very words, for they are part of a HIDDEN mystery in the OT .

QuoteRomans 11:25~"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery."~Dave, you know what a mystery is~ WE BOTH know that without God's revelation, it cannot be known by natural observation or reason. IMPOSSIBLE.

Paul started back in 9:1-5 with a burden for Israel, pursued it (10:1-4), and then explained it here. Dave, it is a mystery per Paul not Jaime, 4WD, RB, etc., then it cannot be observed or known by natural ability, inferring blind elect here!

Dave, the salvation of Israel described in the next verses (11:25-29) answers the question posed in 11:11. The mystery is Gentiles benefitting by Israel blindness! Read 11:25-32 and follow the reasoning. Benefitting with TRUE KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ, while many of natural Israel, who was ALSO part of the election of grace still fighting Paul as Paul did to the church earlier in his life before conversion. But in the end ALL of Israel, that is, the election of grace SHALL BE SAVED, though at the time of reformation going form OT to NT many of the true spiritual seed of Abraham had TROUBLE seeing these hidden mysteries in the scriptures JUST AS some of God's children do even in our day.

"Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits."~Paul's concern is not that Gentiles were ignorant of a future Jewish revival or restored national preeminence, for he does not say anything toward that Jewish fable whatsoever in the context. It is FORCED into these scriptures. Understanding God's mysteries are NOT easy, yet, some people glory in truth with a very proud spirit, and become very harmful in leading even the very elect into truths. 

One of the reasons for Paul disclosing this secret will of God was to teach humility to the Gentiles. So his earlier explanation that elect Jews were blind for Gentiles to get the gospel (11:11-15). So his earlier explanation that the firstfruit and lump were holy, sanctified by God (11:16-18). So his earlier explanation that the Gentiles should not boast about Jewish unbelief (11:19-21). So his earlier explanation about God's sovereign judgment and Jewish recovery (11:22-24).

Without this news, Gentiles would have despised the Jews for unbelief and gloried in themselves. Three reasons against conceit: they are elect; they are blind for the Gentiles; they will be recovered. When Jesus Christ come again, we ALL will then be free of our errors, especially so of those HIDDEN MYSTERIES.

"That blindness in part is happened to Israel."~This is not blindness of reprobation in national Israel caused by the election of grace (11:1-10), for the apostle has been pursuing since then the very different matter of blind elect Jews (11:11-24). The overall blindness of the nation is not much of a mystery~it was visible and typical of Jews from their very beginning.

There was blindness in part that was atypical, not observable, and intended for Gentile benefits! These special Jews were blind to Christ but elected through grace by patriarchal covenant (11:28)~ just as many Gentiles were!

Only part of elect Israel was blind to Christ, for there were Paul and thousands of Jewish converts. The blindness in part to Israel here is the same as "some of the branches" broken off in 11:17.
The purpose for blinding of elect Israelites was for the gospel to go to the Gentiles (11:11); once the gospel was received by Gentiles, there was no further need for Jewish blindness (11:30-32). But is very much true of some of the elect GENTILES, who are at times enemies to Christ's gospel, NOT purposely bit just plain spiritual ignorance, even though they display love, fear, and zeal of God~Romans 10:1-4, etc. Selah.

"Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."~Two questions must be answered: What is the fulness of the Gentiles? When would it occur? The fulness of the Gentiles was the transfer of the gospel and kingdom privileges to the Gentiles. This was the great Israel-Gentile kingdom event of Paul's generation and ministry (Matthew 8:11-12; 10:5-6; 21:40-43; 22:1-10; John 10:16; 11:49-52; Acts 1:8; 10:45; 11:18; 13:42-49; 15:12-14; 28:23-29; Romans 15:8-12; Gal 3:28-29; 4:21-31; Ephesians 2:11-22; 3:1-13; Hebrews 9:10; 13:14 ).

The issue here is Jewish blindness to redirect the gospel to Gentiles, which is 2000 years past, for the context shows that Gentile's goal the reason for Israel's blindness ( 11:11-12,17,19,28,30 ).

Paul already used fulness of Israel in context, and it has to do with conversion, not time (11:12).

Grasp the predominately qualitative sense of fulness from 11:12 by contrast to Israel's fall and diminishing e.g. riches, salvation, conversion, gospel and kingdom privileges, etc. Paul's idea of fulness of converting blind Jews from the dead was then~ by his efforts (11:14), and keep in mind that Israel's fulness could only occur after Gentile fulness had been realized.
Paul's appeal to Gentiles was for their enthusiasm toward such a recovery of Israel (11:11-15), which requires a preceding and producing fulness of the Gentiles for such evangelistic efforts.

The fulness of the Gentiles is the gospel being redirected to them with rich worldwide results. Fulness be come in is the final stage as the BODY OF CHRIST considered, with mostly Gentiles coming in at last. There is no reason for this to be when all Gentiles have been converted at the end of the world, THEN God will turn BACK to the Jewish nation~for the phrase does not require that and such an interpretation has insurmountable difficulties all through the NT that were written by "JEWISH" apostles, etc.

Which Israel? Our answer is clearly seen starting with verse 26-down to the end of the chapter~maybe later....RB

Quote from: RB on Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 04:24:00WHICH ISRAEL is the question!

Red, you are reading the text with the ASSUMPTION of 2 Israels; something the strict text of scripture NEVER supports.

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 05:21:17
Red, you are reading the text with the ASSUMPTION of 2 Israels; something the strict text of scripture NEVER supports.

Dave see reply # 153. Later, I will post an in-depth post on the two Israel. But you must put your "pipe" down so your mind can clear up.

Quote from: RB on Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 05:43:46
Dave see reply # 153. Later, I will post an in-depth post on the two Israel. But you must put your "pipe" down so your mind can clear up.

Romans 11 pt 1    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4Vnb-b08w    Start at 49:00

Romans 11 pt 2     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO2G_Jxk6V0    Start at 54:30

There will be 2 more sermons on this

Rella, whether the word I use is simile, symbol, or metaphor, the idea is the same.  An object with certain characteristics is used to represent a real object with corresponding characteristics.  If you are dubious about the bible using language that matches your formal definition of metaphor, consider the song of songs. "I am the Rose of Sharon, the lily of the valleys.  Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest is my lover among the your men."  Your assertion that a metaphor can only be used to represent something metaphysical or unbiblically ethaerial is incorrect, as the example from the song illustrates. However, if you prefer, I will recast my argument using the word symbol.  I assert that if the beasts of Daniel are to be interpreted as symbols for the four kingdoms that dominated the medaterianian during the period between Israel's excile and the fall of Rome, then the two beasts of Revelation should also be interpreted as symbols for kingdoms that ruled the area between Christ's ministry and the fall of Rome, and that the only two kingdom's that meet that criteria are the early pagan and later Constantinian Roman empires.

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 10:19:13
Romans 11 pt 1    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4Vnb-b08w    Start at 49:00

Romans 11 pt 2     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO2G_Jxk6V0    Start at 54:30

There will be 2 more sermons on this

Dave, I will read ( or listen ) to all that you send and respond accordingly if you promise to answer my response to you.

Quote from: DanielConway on Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 12:43:37
Rella, whether the word I use is simile, symbol, or metaphor, the idea is the same.  An object with certain characteristics is used to represent a real object with corresponding characteristics.  If you are dubious about the bible using language that matches your formal definition of metaphor, consider the song of songs. "I am the Rose of Sharon, the lily of the valleys.  Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest is my lover among the your men."  Your assertion that a metaphor can only be used to represent something metaphysical or unbiblically ethaerial is incorrect, as the example from the song illustrates. However, if you prefer, I will recast my argument using the word symbol.  I assert that if the beasts of Daniel are to be interpreted as symbols for the four kingdoms that dominated the medaterianian during the period between Israel's excile and the fall of Rome, then the two beasts of Revelation should also be interpreted as symbols for kingdoms that ruled the area between Christ's ministry and the fall of Rome, and that the only two kingdom's that meet that criteria are the early pagan and later Constantinian Roman empires.

"Rella, whether the word I use is simile, symbol, or metaphor, the idea is the same.  An object with certain characteristics is used to represent a real object with corresponding characteristics."

Which is exactly my point.  Representation of real objects.

But most who post the "metaphor" argument post with the idea that Rev is not a true prophesy. It is the same argument they use in other areas of the bible
that offered somewhat questionable accounts and ideas that are not clear.

From Genesis and onward in spots.

I have zero doubt that Revelation is as written and follows "end times" prophesy, but among those who don't are the preterists, who twist what they read to fit their dialogue.

Revelation is not also  a parable, as others have suggested. It is descriptive of what to expect, using objects and things that are designed to bring fear to those who read it. To talk of it otherwise.....

If you see it differently... Fine.

But this is where I stand.

Quote from: RB on Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 15:07:49Dave, I will read ( or listen ) to all that you send and respond accordingly if you promise to answer my response to you.

I will answer, but perhaps not immediately. 

We are in the process of selling our townhouse for a single family farmhouse and are rather busy for the next several weeks.

Rom 9:1  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Those of the true new covenant Israel, are of the child of promise, Jesus Christ. Those who are not, are no longer of Israel.

Gal 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand. 12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God is in Christ Jesus. None who are not in Christ Jesus are the Israel of God. The kingdom of God has been taken away from all but those in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Israel of God is built upon the apostles and prophets, and Jesus Himself is the chief corner stone. None who reject Jesus Christ are the Israel of God. The kingdom has been taken away from all such.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

The kingdom of God has been taken away from everyone, including all Jews, who follow the example of the priests and Pharisees above in rejecting the chief corner stone of our faith Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah of Israel and the entire world.

  point is, God is NOT done with physical, literal Israel. The unmistakable sign of the re-establishment of the Jewish sovereign state should make that fact very-obvious.

Quote from: robycop3 on Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 06:17:47
  point is, God is NOT done with physical, literal Israel. The unmistakable sign of the re-establishment of the Jewish sovereign state should make that fact very-obvious.

Pure premillennial Bovine Scat.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 06:27:37
Pure premillennial Bovine Scat.

You make premillennial believers sound like we are demented at worst or unworthy to voice an opinion at best as we are something to be scraped off the bottom of your shoes.

I happen to agree with robycop3 on this one.

But then, you and I have been at opposite ends on most things so why change now? 

Quote from: Rella on Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 11:56:19
You make premillennial believers sound like we are demented at worst or unworthy to voice an opinion at best as we are something to be scraped off the bottom of your shoes.

I happen to agree with robycop3 on this one.

But then, you and I have been at opposite ends on most things so why change now? 

Rella, I said nothing about being demented or unworthy of anything.  Besides, few here are more critical than you concerning anything you don't agree with.

If you object to my reference to Bovine Scat, then just let me say that it was pure biblical error.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Aug 08, 2020 - 12:10:45
Rella, I said nothing about being demented or unworthy of anything.  Besides, few here are more critical than you concerning anything you don't agree with.

If you object to my reference to Bovine Scat, then just let me say that it was pure biblical error.

  So God was wrong when he said He would make Israel & Judah one nation again, and restore their fortunes ? Again, I refer to modern Israel as being an unmistakable manifestation of the beginning of that restoration. Of course I recognize the fact that most Jews aren't Christians, but the founding of modern Israel & their having their capital in Jerusalem wasn't just lucky chance.

Quote from: robycop3 on Sun Aug 09, 2020 - 04:34:07
So God was wrong when he said He would make Israel & Judah one nation again, and restore their fortunes?

Why is it that you don't see that this already happened?

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Aug 06, 2020 - 10:19:13
Romans 11 pt 1    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4Vnb-b08w    Start at 49:00
Romans 11 pt 2     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO2G_Jxk6V0    Start at 54:30
There will be 2 more sermons on this

Romans 11 pt 3:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylHWAdmV64s   Start at 59:00

BTW - ignore the fat guy in the white shirt in the background.  that is me.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Aug 10, 2020 - 20:09:38
Why is it that you don't see that this already happened?

Because it HASN'T. Modern Israel is JEWISH; none of them claim to be of any other tribe but Judah, Levi, or Benjamin.

Quote from: robycop3 link=topic=41497.Because it HASN'T. Modern Israel is JEWISH; none of them claim to be of any other tribe but Judah, Levi, or Benjamin.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/indigenous-tribe-returns-to-israel-after-27-centuries/

https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-features/researcher-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-ephraim-in-india

https://shavei.org/bnei-ephraim/

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Aug 14, 2020 - 05:33:10
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/indigenous-tribe-returns-to-israel-after-27-centuries/

https://www.jpost.com/jewish-world/jewish-features/researcher-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-ephraim-in-india

https://shavei.org/bnei-ephraim/

  It shall be good if those people are actually descendants of Ephraim & Manasseh. That'll only leave 7 tribes to yet be identified.

  But we must remember those people are NOT JEWS. The Jews are only of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. While all Jews are Israelis, not all Israelis are Jews.

Hey all.  This post is directed to the reading audience in general.  Most of you are familiar with my theory concerning the early and later Roman empires, some of you have read my paper developing this theory.  I would like to explore another theory I have, that the ten kings of Daniel and Revelation correspond to the barracks emperors of the Imperial crisis.  Developing this theory will require more accounting than pattern matching as my previous paper did, as it will require establishing which of the emperors qualify as a horn-king, that each of them hurt the city of Rome in some way, and that each of them persecuted the church.  In all frankness, some of this information may be lost, but I think it is worth a try.  I am recruiting scholars (lay or professional) to help me with this because it requires an in depth knowledge of the minutia of the period that I lack.  Full accreditation will be given to anyone who contributes.