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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCYzRY9zpm0

Evidence of the pre flood world for all to see.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Oct 10, 2020 - 08:56:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCYzRY9zpm0

Evidence of the pre flood world for all to see.

Interesting, but not evidence of it being worldwide, just more localized.

Quote from: Rella on Sat Oct 10, 2020 - 10:50:28
Interesting, but not evidence of it being worldwide, just more localized.

One would be hard pressed to find examples of localized or regional flooding burying structures so deep in what has now become rock, or perhaps leaving the impressions of structures that once were within the mud, soot, or other materials which have now become rock over time. The problem is of course exasperated when considering the time frame which even false narratives of history allow for concerning humans capable of building such structures. Even more so when sticking to the biblical time line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XhjBzMX5Ss

So many Mammoths discovered all over the world, getting stuck in mud or tar pits and dying over and over and over again. Or so evolutionary scientists tell us over and over again according to the dictates of their false theory. They didn't get stuck in mud or tar pits or what have you. They or their remains were buried in mud as a result of the flood, just as evidence of other buried things all over the world testifies. No, local floods and or other natural catastrophes, or single instances of animal trappings did not happen over and over and over again all over the world so very many many many times. This is the false contrived narrative of evolutionists simply supporting their own theory or faith if you will, which is far less likely to have left such an enormous amount of evidence all over the world as we see, than a global flood as described in scripture. Countless millions, no billions of fossils in huge graveyards preserved all over the world is far more indicative of a global catastrophe than countless smaller ones. Denial is as denial does I suppose. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN463CvOM9c

More huge fossil graveyard evidence ignored and or suppressed. Dinosaur bones and human bones found in same layer. Nothing to see here, never mind move along. Cover up all such evidence and pretend it never happened, and discontinue any investigation of areas with such evidence. Instead, destroy all such evidence. Same old story.

https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/evidence/historical/ancient/dinosaur/

Ancient depictions of dinosaurian creatures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HQzhi8UPM

Another good video about the fossil record in relation to creation or evolution.

https://hermoments.com/ancient-discovery-dig/?nogdprc=1

Quoted article below, from link above. My comments are in blue.

QuoteExperts Are Shaken By An Ancient Structure Made Of A Dark Substance

There isn't an archaeologist out there who wouldn't want to travel back to the Pleistocene Epoch and interview our ancestors. Because while these experts do everything they can to analyze ancient manmade structures and tools, most of the time they're left scratching their heads. It's hard to get into the ancient mindset.

When a team of archaeologists uncovered a bizarre structure in Russia, they were, of course, unable to call up their Ice Age friends and find answers. So the experts embarked on a long journey to understand how this puzzling design fit into history, and their findings forever changed the way we view our ancestors.

When Alexander Dudin, a researcher from the Kostenki Museum-Preserve, and a team of scientists began digging at a Russian site called Kostenki 11 in 2014, they didn't expect to unveil a massive structure. But they were prepared to study every inch of it.

As the archaeologists delved deeper and deeper, revealing more of what was hidden beneath the soil, they understood the bigger picture. Though the 40-foot-wide structure was the third discovered at Kostenki 11, it was one of many found throughout Europe.

Approximately 70 similar structures were recorded by archaeologists throughout Eastern Europe, but this particular structure was special, as it was the oldest one on Russian land assumed to be manmade. They estimated it to be 25,000 years old.

Though researchers deemed many of the other, much smaller, found structures as cozy winter dwellings, the structure in question was far too enormous to resemble a roof, making the researchers think the round circular complex was used for something else.

The team proposed that these hunter-gatherers possibly killed animals at the site and carried their rich meat and fat to nearby permafrosts, areas of ground that remain frozen for two or more years; kind of like prehistoric refrigerators!

This was all the more evident as the researchers looked harder at the structures' foundations and realized all of the bones came from woolly mammoths. They dusted off skulls, skeletons, and tusks. More than they could comprehend.

"The sheer number of bones that our Paleolithic ancestors had sourced from somewhere and brought to this particular location to build this monument is really quite staggering," explained Dr. Alexander Pryor, an archaeologist at the University of Exeter in England. In fact, this made Dr. Pryor curious.

This mystery described above is complicated by the deep time simple to complex evolutionary and historical narrative believed no doubt, by the "scientists" involved, and the writers of this article under examination. There is no great mystery involved for those of the Creationist, young earth, global flood perspective. To the contrary, as humanity began to spread out across the earth again after the flood, they made good use of the conditions and materials left all over the earth from the flood. Far from being primitive themsleves as the false evolutionary narrative depicts, they were much like us if not somewhat more intelligent and vigorous, living in a primitive world. One which had recently been transformed into a much less hospitable and bounteous environment than it had been prior to the flood.

One thing the post flood humans would have found in abundance as we still do to this day, are the remains of countless buried plants and animals, if not many on or near the surface as well. The bones of which would certainly make some good building material especially, if found in very large quantities. This is not to mention the food the meat of these animals could provide especially if they were in the colder regions of earth as the above article testifies they were, and are to date. Even today we find frozen woolly mammoths with almost all of the meat still on their bones. Just imagine finding entire enormous herds of wooly mammoths kept in a freezer as it were, in the colder regions of the earth after the flood. These would supply abundant food and the material for building these structures, and the tools or weapons found as well.

As mentioned in the article, many more of these types of structures have been found, though this one is the largest. It is certainly no stretch of the imagination to conclude that people living shortly after the flood, would make good use, even necessary use of the plants and animals buried during the same. Or covered with snow and ice in the colder regions. Even if they were primitives as deep time evolutionists suppose, they could have figured this out. Nevertheless they were not, and they easily searched out and made use of what was available in the post flood world. There is evidence all over the world, that humanity has been digging into it extensively for a long time now. Not mention several mysteries concerning seemingly advanced abilities in doing so. Which mysteries themselves are nothing more than the product of believing and adhering to false deep time evolutionary narratives. To date the world is filled with countless mysteries regarding our past, created alone by the false narratives so very many have accepted as truth.

The evidence that our ancestors who replenished the earth, dug up and made use of plants, animals, and even antediluvian structures buried during the flood is all over the earth. It is just ignored or interpreted wrongly according to widely accepted false narratives of history such as evolution, and or alien influence and tech. necessitated by the same. Finding as much as we do when digging for various reasons today, there can be no doubt that those living closer to the flood event found far more when doing so. It is certainly tenable and even likely, that they dug into the earth with this exact purpose in mind.

Continued from post #462

https://hermoments.com/ancient-discovery-dig/?nogdprc=1

Quoted article below, from link above. My comments are in blue.

QuoteExperts Are Shaken By An Ancient Structure Made Of A Dark Substance

...................So, in 2015, he further investigated the structure, tiptoeing through all of the bones while barefoot, as to not crush any remains. Inside the ring, he also found ribs, jaws and leg bones, which were likely piled 20 inches high until the inevitable topple.

Together, the team of archaeologists and scientists collected sediment samples from inside the mammoth bone structure, as well as from three large ditches located outside of it. Said samples revealed something vital to understanding the intention of the structure.

Using chemical analysis, the team pinpointed more than 400 charcoal pieces; and with charcoal, comes wood-burning. Evidence revealed the charcoal fragments were derived from conifers, such as spruce, larch, and pine. Despite the freezing climate these hunter-gatherers endured, trees were popping up everywhere!

While these Ice Age hunter-gatherers would start bonfires with wood, they likely threw in some mammoth bones to add light to the flames, as wood-fueled fires are warmer and bone-fueled fires are brighter.

"You won't produce a nice good fire for roasting your mammoth meat on," said Dr. Beresford-Jones, an environmental archaeologist at the University of Cambridge and an author of the study. This led the experts to a concise conclusion.

These incandescent, bone-fueled flames made it easier for the hunter-gatherers to work through the wee hours of the night, nimbly ripping juicy meat off of mammoth bones before wild carnivores steal from their prosperous hunt.

Or, post flood humans used the abundant buried frozen trees and mammoths left from the same, to fuel their fires. Not needing to hunt any mammoths, or chop down any trees. Simply using what was at the time abundantly available. Building structures and leaving remains behind in an area commonly used by many for this exact purpose. The remains of which are being interpreted today differently by those of different world views.

The extremely large number of bones being easily explained as a  result of an abundant supply of mammoths readily available without any hunt required. A much more likely scenario than primitives being so very skilled at rapid paced killing of these huge animals leaving so very many bones to be found in this one area. As already stated, we still find massive burial grounds all over this earth, which no doubt would have been more abundant and easier to get to than much of what we find today. There is no good reason to presume humans were not finding such thousands of yeas ago and closer to the flood as well.

Elephants are good swimmers, no doubt mammoths were as well. Apart from this, they can breath under water through their trunks. Giving them an advantage over other animals in being able to breathe longer than others even when the rest of their bodies and heads are submerged under water. They also have a very high content of body fat which would help them float better than other animals, longer perhaps even after death. Which fat content would also no doubt contribute heavily to the types of gasses released in the bodies of drowned animals which will also keep them afloat and even raise them back to the surface of water after sinking in the same. All of these factors may have contributed to the mammoths survival and or preservation atop of water even after death, longer than other animals. Between this and their obvious vast numbers at one time, they simply ended up as one of the most abundant animal remains which were entombed closest to the surface of earth after the flood. Which explains why we still find so many of them today.

QuoteAs for the gathering half of "hunter-gatherers," plant materials resembling modern parsnips, carrots, and potatoes were, too, found at the site, which suggests these Paleolithic people prepared a medley of foods for their meals. Yet some experts weren't satisfied with the study.

While there certainly may well have been "hunter-gatherers" in the past, the term is built upon presumptions of deep time simple to complex "scientific" theory, and speculative scenarios. To the contrary, according to a biblical perspective, humanity has always been far more capable than said theories allow for. Even secular "science" has determined that humans were farming the land long before these suggested "hunter-gatherers" were presumably gathering their veggies rather than growing them.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/evidence-that-humans-had-farms-30000-years-earlier-than-previously-thought/

As a creationist of course, I do not agree with the timelines suggested in the article at the link above. It does demonstrate though, the non stop continuing trend of finding out that almost everything "scientists" once thought happened at a certain point in time, has turned out to have happened much earlier. This includes humans farming. As I have stated may times over on these boards, the cause of these non stop findings of complexity in both nature and society being found further and further back in time, is the false deep time narrative that all these "scientists" presume to be reality. The complexity was there from the beginning, and the world is nowhere near as old as they project through the lens of their vain imaginations, in defiance of the word of God.

Continued from post #463

https://hermoments.com/ancient-discovery-dig/?nogdprc=1

Quoted article below, from link above. My comments are in blue.

QuoteExperts Are Shaken By An Ancient Structure Made Of A Dark Substance

..............Though Paul Pettitt, an archaeologist at Durham University in England, commended the team, he brought up an interesting point. He declared it's still possible the structure was used as a homey dwelling during harsh winters, which could've reached a horrific negative 4 degrees Fahrenheit.

Despite receiving praise from the likes of Pettitt and Mietje Germonpré, an archaeozoologist at the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences in Brussels, the team clarified that there's still much they don't know about the cryptic structure.

An understatement to be sure. What they think they do know, is built upon a false narrative altogether, and therefore basically has no foundation above their own imaginings. The narrative they have laid as their foundation, is under increasing attack even from other deep timers who now seriously question their one time slow developing simple to complex model. Ever increasing evidence that our so called ancient societies were built upon older more complex and high tech. societies themselves, is raising many questions. an increasing number of deep timers believe this simple to complex scenario has played itself out many times over already. Each meeting with a catastrophic end, being built upon and back up again by the survivors of said catastrophes. There is no doubt some truth to this scenario, in that it happened in the flood for sure, and possibly several times since, concerning more local civilizations and societies.

This is as I see it, a more proper conclusion concerning the observable evidence. The proper conclusion of course is exactly what scripture states. A superior antediluvian world was destroyed by the flood, and built upon by the survivors of that flood. Which survivors utilized all that they could which remained on the now primitive and developing planet they were left upon. Over time losing much of the knowledge humanity once had, in a different world where much of that knowledge was probably no longer applicable. Nevertheless, intelligent and capable beings, not monkey to man primitives. This is what the evidence truly suggests.

QuoteThe scientists are still perplexed about whether the hunter-gatherers killed the mammoths off themselves, or scavenged them like lurking vultures. They have no concrete idea of how long the site was used for, or if it was considered culturally and/or ritualistically important.

Apparently, there is no evidence that these people hunted these mammoths, or they would have presented it and determined that they did. To the contrary, they even suggest that they scavenged them rather than hunted them. Then they threw some cultural or ritualistic mumbo jumbo in the mix for mystery effect I suppose. I see no mystery here. Survivors of the flood did of course scavenge the remains of no doubt millions of creatures, especially in the colder regions where they would have been preserved. No need for cultural or ritualistic purpose in building the structures out of the may bones left over from the scavenging. Just something constructive to do with so very many bones. Whether there was an actual purpose of function or not. No telling how many uses were found for all these remains.

Quote"These woolly-mammoth circular structures are really enigmatic, but they are hugely impressive. They speak to a time when our human ancestors were battling against the coldest and harshest and most difficult point of the last glacial cycle in Europe," explained Dr. Pryor.

We can't be certain about what these Paleolithic people built the strategic mammoth bone composite for. What we do know is that these archaeologists uncovered something that only helps us further understand the past.

They will never properly further understand the past, while holding onto and adapting the explanation of all they see to the parameters of a false historical narrative. Rejecting the truths of God's word, they do ever seek to exalt and establish their own vain imaginings in it s place.   

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-09-04/mammoth-central-found-at-mexico-airport-construction-site

Emphasis in quoted article below from link above is mine.

QuoteAt least 200 mammoth skeletons found at Mexico City airport construction site

MEXICO CITY —  The number of mammoth skeletons recovered at an airport construction site north of Mexico City has risen to at least 200, with a large number still to be excavated, experts said Thursday.
Archeologists hope the site that has become "mammoth central" — the shores of an ancient lake bed that both attracted and trapped mammoths in its marshy soil — may help solve the riddle of their extinction.

Experts said that finds are still being made at the site, including signs that humans may have made tools from the bones of the lumbering animals that died somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000 years ago.

There are so many mammoths at the site of the new Santa Lucia airport that observers have to accompany each bulldozer that digs into the soil to make sure work is halted when mammoth bones are uncovered.

"We have about 200 mammoths, about 25 camels, five horses," said archeologist Rubén Manzanilla López of the National Institute of Anthropology and History, referring to animals that went extinct in the Americas.

The site is only about 12 miles from artificial pits, essentially shallow mammoth traps, that were dug by early inhabitants to trap and kill dozens of mammoths.

Manzanilla López said evidence is beginning to emerge suggesting that even if the mammoths at the airport died natural deaths after becoming stuck in the mud of the ancient lake bed, their remains may have been carved up by humans. Something similar happened at the mammoth-trap site in the hamlet of San Antonio Xahuento, in the nearby township of Tultepec.

While tests are still being carried out on the mammoth bones to try to find possible butchering marks, archeologists have found dozens of mammoth-bone tools — usually shafts used to hold other tools or cutting implements — like ones in Tultepec.

"Here we have found evidence that we have the same kind of tools, but until we can do the laboratory studies to see marks of these tools or possible tools, we can't say we have evidence that is well-founded," Manzanilla López said.

Paleontologist Joaquin Arroyo Cabrales said the airport site "will be a very important site to test hypotheses" about the mass extinction of mammoths.

"What caused these animals' extinction, everywhere there is a debate, whether it was climate change or the presence of humans," Arroyo Cabrales said. "I think in the end the decision will be that there was a synergy effect between climate change and human presence."

Ashley Leger, a paleontologist at the California-based Cogstone Resource Management company, who was not involved in the dig, noted that such natural death groupings "are rare. A very specific set of conditions that allow for a collection of remains in an area but also be preserved as fossils must be met. There needs to be a means for them to be buried rapidly and experience low oxygen levels."

The site near Mexico City now appears to have outstripped the Mammoth Site at Hot Springs, S.D. — which has about 61 sets of remains — as the world's largest find of mammoth bones. Large concentrations have also been found in Siberia and at Los Angeles' La Brea tar pits.

For now, the mammoths seem to be everywhere at the site and the finds may slow down, but not stop, work on the new airport.

Mexican Army Capt. Jesus Cantoral, who oversees efforts to preserve remains at the army-led construction site, said "a large number of excavation sites" are still pending detailed study, and that observers have to accompany backhoes and bulldozers every time they break ground at a new spot.

The airport project is so huge, he noted, that the machines can just go work somewhere else while archeologists study a specific area.

The airport project is scheduled for completion in 2022, at which point the dig will end.

More endless interpretation of evidence according to the false preconceived deep time simple to complex evolutionary narrative. Of course water and mud are included in the probable scenario leading to the death of all of these mammoths and other animals mentioned, while denying the biblical flood account and opting for yet another less likely localized event. How many times will these "scientists" need to find the same kind of evidence, leading to the same kind of scenario which would account for such preservation of such a large group of animals, before they will admit this evidence is in support of a global event described in scripture. Countless fossil graveyards everywhere, with no end of their discoveries in sight. Almost always leading to the conclusion that large amounts of water and mud are the best explanations for such preservation.

Still, these "scientists" who choose to deny the most logical conclusion, stick to alternate explanations built up in their own vain imaginations. At first finding perhaps dozens of mammoths in large as it were pits, they speculated that early humans built these pits to trap them. Now as they keep finding more and more in and around the same area, they are having to expand this view. We are lookiing at the same scenario explained in my previous posts concerning mammoths and their remains found abundantly all over the earth by post flood humanity, which made good use of the materials they had easiest access to at the time. Yes, climate change the likes of which none but those few survivors of the global biblical flood witnessed, ended the lives of these wooly mammoths and the countless other mammoths and all other animals we continually find all over this earth.

God caused that climate change, not humanity. No one but God could save anyone from that change either. Nor can or will anyone save the inhabitants of this present world from the climate change and other catastrophes God's word has predicted for our future by His own hand, save God alone again by His own hand. The fear mongering politics of this world suggesting that humanity can save itself from what God has already determined upon it, will leave those trusting in it, in the same place of those who rejected God's mercy concerning His predicted global flood of the past. Look to God and His word through His Son Jesus Christ unto salvation, not the vain imaginings of fallen humanity in the religious, political, and scientific leaders of this world.

Pro 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

https://mytheoryofevolution.com/genetics/yet-another-blow-to-the-myth-of-vestigial-organs/

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteYet Another Blow to the Myth of Vestigial Organs

Darwinism considers all life on Earth as a product of chance mutations and natural selection and, as an a priori commitment, excludes intelligent design. In order to argue against design, the Darwinist mind seeks for flaws in the biological systems. From Darwin to Dawkins, over and over, this dogmatic stance has led the evolutionist to insist on the existence of imaginary flaws and "useless" vestigial organs in living systems. However, over and over, these bold claims by evolutionists turned out to be manifestations of ignorance. The allegedly vestigial organs were discovered to be performing very important functions and the whole "vestigial organ" argument turned out to be a fallacy.

The history of science documents a steady reduction in the number of the so-called vestigial organs. The allegedly non-functional organs, one by one, turned out to be organs whose functions had not yet been discovered. A list of vestigial organs that was made by the German Anatomist R. Wiedersheim in 1895 included approximately 100 structures, including the appendix and the coccyx. As science progressed, it was discovered that all of the organs in Wiedersheim"s list in fact had very important functions. For instance, it was discovered that the appendix, which was supposed to be a "vestigial organ," was in fact a part of the lymphatic system. A medical publication notes in 1997 that "other bodily organs and tissues – the thymus, liver, spleen, appendix, bone marrow, and small collections of lymphatic tissue such as the tonsils in the throat and Peyer"s patch in the small intestine – are also part of the lymphatic system. They too help the body fight infection." (1)

It was also discovered that the tonsils, which were also included in Wiedersheim"s list of vestigial organs, had a significant role in protecting the throat against infections, particularly until adolescence. It was found that the coccyx at the lower end of the vertebral column supports the bones around the pelvis and is the convergence point of some small muscles and for this reason, it would not be possible to sit comfortably without a coccyx.

In the years that followed, it was realized that the thymus triggered the immune system in the human body by activating the T cells, that the pineal gland was in charge of the secretion of some important hormones, that the thyroid gland was effective in providing steady growth in babies and children, and that the pituitary gland controlled the correct functioning of many hormone glands. All of these were once considered to be "vestigial organs." Finally, the semi-lunar fold in the eye, which was referred to as a vestigial organ by Darwin, has been found in fact to be in charge of cleansing and lubricating the eye.

The steady reduction in the list of vestigial organs results from the fact that this is an argument from ignorance. Some wiser evolutionists also came to realize this fact. S.R. Scadding, an evolutionist himself, once wrote in his article "Can vestigial organs constitute evidence for evolution?" published in the journal Evolutionary Theory:

"Since it is not possible to unambiguously identify useless structures, and since the structure of the argument used is not scientifically valid, I conclude that "vestigial organs" provide no special evidence for the theory of evolution. "(2)

The Leg of the Horse

The latest blow to the myth of vestigial organs comes from a recent study of the leg of the horse. An article in the 20-27 December 2001 issue of the Nature magazine, entitled "Biomechanics: Damper For Bad Vibrations", it is noted that "Some muscle fibres in the legs of horses seem to be evolutionary leftovers with no function. But in fact they may act to absorb damaging vibrations generated in the leg as the horse runs." The article reads :

"Horses and camels have muscles in their legs with tendons more than 600 millimetres long connected to muscle fibres less than 6 millimetres long. Such short muscles can change length only by a few millimetres as the animal moves, and seem unlikely to be of much use to large mammals. The tendons function as passive springs, and it has been assumed that the short muscle fibres are redundant, the remnants of longer fibres that have lost their function over the course of evolution. But Wilson and colleagues argue... that these fibres might protect bones and tendons from potentially damaging vibrations....

Their experiments show that short muscle fibres can damp the damaging vibrations following the impact of a foot on the ground. When the foot of a running animal hits the ground, the impact sets the leg vibrating; the frequency of the vibrations is relatively high – for example, 30-40 Hz in horses – so many cycles of vibration would occur while the foot was on the ground if there were no damping.

The vibrations might cause damage, because bone and tendon are susceptible to fatigue failure. Fatigue in bones and tendons is the accumulation of damage resulting from repeated application of stresses. Bone fatigue is responsible for the stress fractures suffered by both human athletes and racehorses, and tendon fatigue may explain at least some cases of tendonitis. Wilson et al. suggest that the very short muscle fibres protect both bones and tendons from fatigue damage by damping out vibrations... "(3)

In short, a closer look at the anatomy of the horse revealed that, the structures that had been considered as nonfunctional by evolutionists have very important functions. In other words, scientific progress demonstrated that what was considered to be evidence for evolution is in fact evidence for design.

Evolutionists should take a hint from this fact, if they are willing to do so. These comments made in Nature seem reasonable:

"Wilson et al. have found an important role for a muscle that seemed to be the relic of a structure that had lost its function in the course of evolution. Their work makes us wonder whether other vestiges (such as the human appendix) are as useless as they seem." (4)

This is not surprising. The more we learn about nature, the more we see the evidence for God"s creation. As Michael Behe notes, "the conclusion of design comes not from that we do not know, but from what we have learned over the past 50 years." (5) And Darwinism turns out to be an argument from ignorance, or, in other words, an "atheism of the gaps."

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Aug 17, 2019 - 11:48:51
Do you not understand that your faith in scripture is based in large part on your "human" speculation?

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

Faith in God is given by God for it is impossible for humans to grasp even the tiniest aspect of God on their own.   

Humans are creatures of the earth, limited by the capacity of our arms to reach and our minds to understand that which we cannot grasp.   We don't even know how our own brains work, yet we are firmly convinced of our superiority in understanding all things unknown and unseen.

Most who object to faith do not understand its substance.  Instead they confuse religious mumbo-jumbo for faith.  Religion is indeed a mind game designed to garner donation$ from the weak minded.  Faith is a conviction of that which has revealed itself to us - God.  It is that life-vest by which we can avoid sinking into the waters of self-deceit and ultimate destruction.

Human speculations designed the steam engine, the internal combustion engine, the jet airplane, moon rockets and the wonders of the medical arts.  If human speculation alone could discover God it would have.   To date, its use has been devoted almost completely to hopeless attempts to denigrate faith revealed by the Spirit of God to man.  It's also been pretty good at discovering and implementing more efficient ways to murder our fellow man. 

Humans have their limitations.  To assume humanity is the highest form of life in the universe or that nothing can be discovered unless it can be weighed and measured by humans is a quality of human conceit forced upon us by the modern age.  Alas it was not always so.   Once upon a time humans appreciated our place in the scheme of things.  Today we have placed ourselves upon a pedestal of self-worship and become our own gods.

Pride goes before a fall, but before that day dawns those who deny faith walk in darkness.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Quote from: Choir Loft on Thu Jan 28, 2021 - 13:17:47
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

Faith in God is given by God for it is impossible for humans to grasp even the tiniest aspect of God on their own.   

If that is true, you would think God would be smart enough to give faith to everyone and then none would be lost. After all Peter said that God wishes that none would perish but that all would come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).  Doe He not even know what He, Himself, wishes for?

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Jan 28, 2021 - 15:43:55
If that is true, you would think God would be smart enough to give faith to everyone and then none would be lost. After all Peter said that God wishes that none would perish but that all would come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).  Doe He not even know what He, Himself, wishes for?

Rom 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

He has given a measure of faith to all. He simply will not force it upon any, and many choose to deny it.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 10:35:39
Rom 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

He has given a measure of faith to all. He simply will not force it upon any, and many choose to deny it.

You have chosen to base you view on a passage that is, and has been through the years, notoriously difficult.  First of all is the meaning that Paul intended for the words "measure" and "faith".  The word measure [μέτρον, metron] can mean either and instrument or a standard by which something is measured, or it can mean the amount or quantity measured out in a particular situation.  "Faith" could refer to the subjective faith by which a person is initially saved, or the subjective faith by which a person lives the Christian life, or it could refer to objective faith, the doctrine or object in which we believe, especially the gospel of Jesus Christ. Or yet still, "faith" might refer a special miracle-working faith which is one of the gifts of the Spirit.  In all of that we need to be concerned with the whole point of the passage, which is the variety, not the sameness, of what God has given to each Christian as indicated by verses 4 and 6.  There is, in my opinion, no coherent way to explain how our faith, our belief, held in common by all Christians could function as the standard by which our individual gifts might be measured.

The point is that God has distributed to each Christian a particular gift, or gifts. Again, in my opinion, the specific gift that God has distributed to each Christian is not the faith as such; rather it is the measure itself.  In this case metron does not have the meaning the standard by which we measure ourselves, but rather the sense of "quantity" or "limited amount"; that is, what this passage is telling me is that God has given to each Christian a measured ability that is appropriate to, or that corresponds to, his own faith.

The main points of this passage, Romans 12:3-8, are that each Christian has a gift, or gifts; these gifts are not the same ; each of the individual Christian's gifts have been given to him by God; and therefore one's gifts is no basis for feelings of superiority over others.  Note how Paul began this passage with, "I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think..." (v.3).

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 12:18:28
You have chosen to base you view on a passage that is, and has been through the years, notoriously difficult.  First of all is the meaning that Paul intended for the words "measure" and "faith".  The word measure [μέτρον, metron] can mean either and instrument or a standard by which something is measured, or it can mean the amount or quantity measured out in a particular situation.  "Faith" could refer to the subjective faith by which a person is initially saved, or the subjective faith by which a person lives the Christian life, or it could refer to objective faith, the doctrine or object in which we believe, especially the gospel of Jesus Christ. Or yet still, "faith" might refer a special miracle-working faith which is one of the gifts of the Spirit.  In all of that we need to be concerned with the whole point of the passage, which is the variety, not the sameness, of what God has given to each Christian as indicated by verses 4 and 6.  There is, in my opinion, no coherent way to explain how our faith, our belief, held in common by all Christians could function as the standard by which our individual gifts might be measured.

The point is that God has distributed to each Christian a particular gift, or gifts. Again, in my opinion, the specific gift that God has distributed to each Christian is not the faith as such; rather it is the measure itself.  In this case metron does not have the meaning the standard by which we measure ourselves, but rather the sense of "quantity" or "limited amount"; that is, what this passage is telling me is that God has given to each Christian a measured ability that is appropriate to, or that corresponds to, his own faith.

The main points of this passage, Romans 12:3-8, are that each Christian has a gift, or gifts; these gifts are not the same ; each of the individual Christian's gifts have been given to him by God; and therefore one's gifts is no basis for feelings of superiority over others.  Note how Paul began this passage with, "I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think..." (v.3).

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

There is no excuse for the unbeliever. Creation itself is enough to give every man the faith necessary unto salvation. The Spirit of God is always striving unto salvation in every individual. It must be accepted or rejected by all. There will be none with an excuse in the end.

Yes, Paul is addressing the church in Rom 12, yet he advises them not to be conformed to this world right before stating those verses. All the saved are saved from this world, and are prone to returning to it. Before I knew God or of God, I knew something wasn't right, something was missing. When I was introduced to Him, faith grabbed hold of the truth. This also is a gift from God, which God withholds from none, accepting they reject it. A measure of faith is in fact given to every man. Which faith if accepted, does increase unto the unity of faith, while preseving the individuality of all in Christ Jesus. The depth of the character of God will not and cannot be exhausted by countless individuals reflecting it. Praise God, we can all be individually unique, and still be created in the image of our heavenly Father.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 15:37:50There is no excuse for the unbeliever. Creation itself is enough to give every man the faith necessary unto salvation.

If you get that out of Romans 1:18-25, then I know why your theology is so screwed up.  Moreover, if that is true, it makes the whole rest of the Bible all rather superfluous.  But of course the whole rest of the Bible is not superfluous and it is not true that creation itself is sufficient as you say it is.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 16:13:43
If you get that out of Romans 1:18-25, then I know why your theology is so screwed up.  Moreover, if that is true, it makes the whole rest of the Bible all rather superfluous.  But of course the whole rest of the Bible is not superfluous and it is not true that creation itself is sufficient as you say it is.

Wow, I am completely flabbergasted, 4WD doesn't agree with me. I never saw that coming.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Please do tell 4WD, what the above really means. Which according to you apparently, is not what it simply states. I expect no answer of course, as I have been waiting for many years now for you to tell me what the creation account really means, if not what it simply states. I have asked you and other evolutionists over and again for years now to explain what the creation account really means, with no takers ever even attempting to do so. You insist it does not mean what it plainly states, but never will actually address the scriptures themselves and explain what they really mean according to your own understanding. Will you now do the same with the above scriptures you claim do not mean what the plainly appear to state?

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 15:37:50There is no excuse for the unbeliever. 

The unbeliever in what?

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 15:37:50
Creation itself is enough to give every man the faith necessary unto salvation.

Faith in what, do you believe, is necessary unto salvation?  Is that found in Romans 1:18-25?  If you think so, then I say again, I now understand why your theology is so screwed up.  You are uncompromisingly sure of yourself in your interpretation of the creation account in Genesis and yet you seem not even to know what is needed to know and believe to be saved.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 31, 2021 - 14:30:36
The unbeliever in what? Faith in what, do you believe, is necessary unto salvation?  Is that found in Romans 1:18-25?  If you think so, then I say again, I now understand why your theology is so screwed up.  You are uncompromisingly sure of yourself in your interpretation of the creation account in Genesis and yet you seem not even to know what is needed to know and believe to be saved.

You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Rom 1:18-25.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 06, 2021 - 19:56:24
You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Rom 1:18-25.

Aw don't give me that crap.  In this case, I am arguing with you and your really bad interpretation of Romans 1:18-25.  It is but one of many of your really bad interpretations of passages of God's word.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Feb 07, 2021 - 05:15:00
Aw don't give me that crap.  In this case, I am arguing with you and your really bad interpretation of Romans 1:18-25.  It is but one of many of your really bad interpretations of passages of God's word.

Yes it is the same old crap we always go through. I believe what the following scriptures simply state, apparently you do not.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

No interpretation needed. The statement is simple and straight forward, with no prophetic symbolism. It is not an allegory. So what is the problem? Why do you need an interpretation? Is it not because you do not want to accept what is plainly stated? Or do you think accepting it for what it plainly states is wrong? If so, please do expound.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD......................................

Gen 6:11  The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth....................................

Gen 7:10  And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights....................................

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

We have the same problem with the above verses do we not? I see no prophetic symbolism or sign of allegorical meaning. Therefore I believe what the scriptures simply state, which you do not. Why not? Is it not because you do not want to accept what is plainly stated? I do not try to interpret scripture which gives no sign of needing interpretation. What is your reason for needing to add an interpretation to the above scriptures? What is your interpretation of the above scriptures? If it is meant to be taken symbolically or allegorically, then what are the symbols and what do they represent? Or, what is the allegory? If it is an allegory, then why do other scriptures refer to it as though it was not? Is this not the same type of problem we so often have with each others views?

You said,

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 15:37:50
Creation itself is enough to give every man the faith necessary unto salvation.

That is crap.  That is not true.  The faith necessary unto salvation is faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God.  Creation says not one thing about God's Son.  It says nothing about Jesus' sacrifice on the cross; about His death, burial and rising again from the grave.  It says not one thing about faith, confession, repentance or baptism.  What it does say in Romans 1 is that creation is enough to convince them of the existence of God and yet they glorified Him not.  That is not the faith unto salvation.

So yes, from you it is the same old crap.  You make some bogus interpretation of the Scriptures and then try to hold everyone else accountable to that.

You took one sentence of what I said, and turned it into something I never meant. Acknowledging the creation is a first step in salvation. Those who will not at the every least acknowledge God in this, cannot be saved. This truth leads directly to Jesus Christ. You know, this guy -

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins : 15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Those who deny the creation, deny the creator who is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....................................................
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I say again, those who deny the creation, deny the Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Those who deny the creation are without excuse, just as the Apostle Paul testifies.

Quote from: Amo on Tue Feb 09, 2021 - 22:55:34
You took one sentence of what I said, and turned it into something I never meant.

I took the sentence of you wrote and showed you that you were wrong and you flew off the handle with your typical rant that anyone who disagrees with you must deny God as creator.  Sad, just so sad.  You need to grow up. 

We are only in the world temporary. And like Paul mentioned, our home is eternal and with God through Christ. When we leave this world for eternity and Christ and heaven.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 10, 2021 - 05:11:09
I took the sentence of you wrote and showed you that you were wrong and you flew off the handle with your typical rant that anyone who disagrees with you must deny God as creator.  Sad, just so sad.  You need to grow up.

Yes, we all have personal opinions, none of which equal truth when they contradict the plain simple testimony of God's word. As for your judgment of my response, disagreeing with you, flying off the handle is not. You are of course free to believe as you wish. We are all so sad, and need to grow up 4WD, that is why Jesus came to save us. Of course many of us are much sadder than you, and far more childish, especially and apparently if they disagree with you. So be it. As a sad and childish individual, I wonder if you could help me out with something, since you are more mature, wiser, and admirable than I. What do the following verses really mean? Thank you for sharing your wisdom.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 10:00:12We are all so sad, and need to grow up 4WD, that is why Jesus came to save us.

You have got to be kidding ! !  Is that what you really believe.  Yeah, that probably is.  Oh Well.  I kissed you off a long time ago.  I should have stayed with that.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Oct 17, 2020 - 15:36:44
https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/evidence/historical/ancient/dinosaur/

Ancient depictions of dinosaurian creatures.

My sense is that they were just larger than the animals today but with the 'thorns and thistles' of the result of sin..

Quote from: Hobie on Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 19:43:29
My sense is that they were just larger than the animals today but with the 'thorns and thistles' of the result of sin..

but with the 'thorns and thistles' of the result of sin..

Whose sin? The animals?

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 12:04:12
You have got to be kidding ! !  Is that what you really believe.  Yeah, that probably is.  Oh Well.  I kissed you off a long time ago.  I should have stayed with that.

Yes, I am keenly aware of my true condition apart from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If it were not for His salvation, we would all be nothing more than satanic imps. I guess this means once again, that you will not be explaining scriptures which you insist certainly do not mean what they appear to simply state. Do you not have any desire to share what they really mean? If I have offended you, my apologies. Offending people is not my intention, but rather defending what I understand to be biblical truth. Farewell 4WD.

Quote from: Hobie on Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 19:43:29
My sense is that they were just larger than the animals today but with the 'thorns and thistles' of the result of sin..

It seems apparent, that either there were certain dinosaurs preserved on the ark, or artists throughout history rendered depictions of creatures whose bones they found just as we do when digging in various places around the planet. Which were probably more prevalent nearer the surface, farther back in time.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 10:28:19Do you not have any desire to share what they really mean?

Romans 1:18-25 means precisely what it says, which is all quite different than what you claimed.  But that's par for the course.