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Quote from: RB on Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 13:33:52
Our natural eyes (and ears) are powerless to cause us to come to Christ, apart from it be given to us to come.

Wrong, wrong, wrong  --  oh so wrong.

John 20:30  Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
John 20:31  but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 14:40:34Wrong, wrong, wrong  --  oh so wrong.

John 20:30  Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
John 20:31  but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

This scripture does not prove your point~for all of the word of God was written to those born of God, to be a medium by which we DO BELIEVE, so we can have joy, peace in believing~yet, the POWER to believe is given to us at the point of the new birth.

QuoteJohn 1:10-13~"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

John clearly tells us why those who received Christ, is not owing to either themselves, or other's will, but solely such people were born of God, and FAITH is that evidence proving their birth by the Spirit of God.

I gave you some scriptures above, all you have to do to give strength to your position is take those very scriptures and prove that we are misusing them to protect our understanding of the truth. A very simple process if one has the truth~where one has the truth, God will support that person with scriptures. 

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 25, 2021 - 14:36:31I absolutely reject that thinking.  Because that means for anyone who does not see spiritual truth, it is because God has not "quickened him to spiritual life"; that in turn means that the only thing that would be required for him to see spiritual truth is for God to quicken them; so that if he doesn't quicken them, the responsibility for not seeing spiritual truth is God's not theirs.  And that is completely unacceptable.

Quote from: JESUS CHRISTJohn 8:43~"Why do ye not understand My speech? Even because ye cannot hear My word!"

"Even because ye cannot hear my word."~The word "hear" [an Hebrew idiom] signifies to receive and believe~ compare John 9:27; 10:3; 12:47; Acts 3:22, 23, etc. And why was it that these Jews "could not hear" His Word? It was because they were children in whom was no faith [Deuteronomy 32:20].

It was because they had no ear for God, no heart for His Word, no desire to learn His will. Proof positive was this that they were dead in trespasses and sins, and therefore not children of God. Unspeakably solemn is this. Hearing God's Word is an attitude of heart. We speak now not of the Divine side, for true it is that the Lord Himself must prepare the heart [Proverbs 16:1] and give the hearing ear [Proverbs 20:12].

But from the human side, man is fully responsible to hear. But he cannot hear the still small voice of God while his ears are filled with the siren songs of the world. That he has no desire to hear does not excuse him, rather does it the more condemn him.

QuoteJohn 10:4,5~"And when He putteth forth his own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: FOR THEY KNOW HIS VOICE! And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they KNOW NOT THE VOICE OF STRANGERS!"

It is equally true that goats cannot hear until they are made a sheep!

QuoteRomans 8:7,8~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

QuoteI absolutely reject that thinking.  Because that means for anyone who does not see spiritual truth, it is because God has not "quickened him to spiritual life"; that in turn means that the only thing that would be required for him to see spiritual truth is for God to quicken them; so that if he doesn't quicken them, the responsibility for not seeing spiritual truth is God's not theirs.  And that is completely unacceptable.

No, you are so wrong~We all had a PERFECT opportunity IN ADAM our head~Of course you also reject the true teaching of Romans 5:12-19 which is the very heart of the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Quote from: RB on Tue Jan 26, 2021 - 08:11:05I gave you some scriptures above, all you have to do to give strength to your position is take those very scriptures and prove that we are misusing them to protect our understanding of the truth. A very simple process if one has the truth~where one has the truth, God will support that person with scriptures.

But RB, you are pulling a GB here.  You give scriptures and present an incorrect interpretation of them and ask for proof that you are wrong.  Okay, so let's take the scripture you just posted: John 1:10-13,

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Who did He gave the right to become children of God?  The answer is right there.  He gave the right to become children of God to those, as many as, who received Him.  And who were those who received Him?  Again, the answer is there. Those who received Him were those who believe in His name.  It is they who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.  It is right there in front of you.  You wrongly insist that it is the child of God that He gives the right to become a believer.  That is your theology.  And that is wrong.  That is not what it says.  It says that it is the believer that He gives the power to become a child of God. Those who received Him are those who believe in His name.  They are one and the same.  It is to them that He gave the right, the power, the liberty to become children of God.  How does that happen? How do they become children of God.  They who receive Him, they who believe in His name are born again; they who receive Him, they who believe in His name become children of God.

That is what John 1:10-13 says.

But 4WD, that set of verses doesn't say one way or the other exactly *WHEN* those that received Him were given that power to become the sons of God.  It could actually read either way you or RB want it to, so it can't really be used as a proof text by either side.

Let me insert some parenthetical words to show what I mean.

4WD's version: "But as many as received Him," (after receiving Him) "to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them who" (already had) "believed in His name..."

RB's version: "But as many as received Him, to them He" (already) "gave power to become the sons of God, even to them who" (after that gift of power) "believed in His name..."

We have to go elsewhere for scripture that proves just WHEN individuals become sons of God.  And there ARE proof text examples of this.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue Jan 26, 2021 - 10:12:15
But 4WD, that set of verses doesn't say one way or the other exactly *WHEN* those that received Him were given that power to become the sons of God.

But 3 Res, I didn't even suggest one way or the other exactly *WHEN* anything happened.  That you felt the need to insert that is simply one more example of your inserting your *EISEGESIS* into it, whether it is a post here or the Scriptures.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue Jan 26, 2021 - 10:12:15But 4WD, that set of verses doesn't say one way or the other exactly *WHEN* those that received Him were given that power to become the sons of God.  It could actually read either way you or RB want it to, so it can't really be used as a proof text by either side.

Let me insert some parenthetical words to show what I mean.

4WD's version: "But as many as received Him," (after receiving Him) "to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them who" (already had) "believed in His name..."

RB's version: "But as many as received Him, to them He" (already) "gave power to become the sons of God, even to them who" (after that gift of power) "believed in His name..."

We have to go elsewhere for scripture that proves just WHEN individuals become sons of God.  And there ARE proof text examples of this.

Well, you do not need to go too far, verse thirteen is a commentary on John 1:12 to prove whose understanding is the correct biblical teaching.

QuoteJohn 1:13~"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There we have the Spirit of God's commentary given to us to help us to clearly see that the the POWER to believe is given FIRST by being BORN OF GOD, and then faith follows.

Quote from: PaulPhilippians 1:29~"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I'll leave you with one more and may add more later in the morning:

Quote from: John1st John 5:1~"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

The same very truth taught in John 1:12,13! One does not beleive in order TO BE born of God, but those that do believe IS ALREADY born of God. More later on this thought.

Quote from: RB on Tue Jan 26, 2021 - 14:36:46There we have the Spirit of God's commentary given to us to help us to clearly see that the the POWER to believe is given FIRST by being BORN OF GOD, and then faith follows.

RB, We don't have to look at other verses.  We can, but that is not necessary. Let me give you the ESV version of verse 12: But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, Surely you will not argue with how one becomes a child of God.  That is by being born again.  So then who were born again?  Clearly those who He gave that right (power, liberty) to. Who were they they were those who did receive Him, those who believed in His name. That is what verse 12 says.

Okay, again, let's go to the verse in John that you posted, 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.  Who does that verse say has been (is) born of God? The answer; everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Jan 26, 2021 - 17:44:49RB, We don't have to look at other verses.  We can, but that is not necessary. Let me give you the ESV version of verse 12: But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, Surely you will not argue with how one becomes a child of God.  That is by being born again.  So then who were born again?  Clearly those who He gave that right (power, liberty) to. Who were they they were those who did receive Him, those who believed in His name. That is what verse 12 says.

4WD, you are using the word power and liberty as though they have the same meaning and they do not. God chose the word power for a reason, not liberty. The word power is explained in John 1:13~ but before I go much more in-depth on this let me give you this definition of the word power by the best source available to us. http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/power I love using Webster's because he ALWAYS uses scriptures to define words.

POW'ER, noun [The Latin has posse, possum, potes, potentia. The primary sense of the verb is to strain, to exert force.]

1. In a philosophical sense, the faculty of doing or performing any thing; the faculty of moving or of producing a change in something; ability or strength. A man raises his hand by his own power or by power moves another body. The exertion of power proceeds from the will, and in strictness, no being destitute of will or intelligence, can exert power power in man is active or speculative. Active power is that which moves the body; speculative power is that by which we see, judge, remember, or in general, by which we think.

Power may exist without exertion. We have power to speak when we are silent.

Power has been distinguished also into active and passive, the power of doing or moving, and the power of receiving impressions or of suffering. In strictness, passive power is an absurdity in terms. To say that gold has a power to be melted, is improper language, yet for want of a more appropriate word, power is often used in a passive sense, and is considered as two-fold; viz. as able to make or able to receive any change.

2. Force; animal strength; as the power of the arm, exerted in lifting, throwing or holding.

3. Force; strength; energy; as the power of the mind, of the imagination, of the fancy. He has not powers of genius adequate to the work.

4. Faculty of the mind, as manifested by a particular mode of operation; as the power of thinking, comparing and judging; the reasoning powers.

5. Ability, natural or moral. We say, a man has the power of doing good; his property gives him the power of relieving the distressed; or he has the power to persuade others to do good; or it is not in his power to pay his debts. The moral power of man is also his power of judging or discerning in moral subjects.

6. In mechanics, that which produces motion or force, or which may be applied to produce it. Thus the inclined plane is called a mechanical power as it produces motion, although this in reality depends on gravity. The wheel and axle, and the lever, are mechanical powers, as they may be applied to produce force. These powers are also called forces, and they are of two kinds, moving power and sustaining power

7. Force. The great power of the screw is of extensive use in compression. The power of steam is immense.

8. That quality in any natural body which produces a change or makes an impression on another body; as the power of medicine; the power of heat; the power of sound.

9. Force; strength; momentum; as the power of the wind, which propels a ship or overturns a building.

10. Influence; that which may move the mind; as the power of arguments or of persuasion.

11. Command; the right of governing, or actual government; dominion; rule, sway; authority. A large portion of Asia is under the power of the Russian emperor. The power of the British monarch is limited by law. The powers of government are legislative, executive, judicial, and ministerial.

Power is no blessing in itself, but when it is employed to protect the innocent.

Under this sense may be comprehended civil, political, ecclesiastical, and military power

12. A sovereign, whether emperor, king or governing prince or the legislature of a state; as the powers of Europe; the great powers; the smaller powers. In this sense, the state or nation governed seems to be included in the word power Great Britain is a great naval power

13. One invested with authority; a ruler; a civil magistrate. Romans 13:1.

14. Divinity; a celestial or invisible being or agent supposed to have dominion over some part of creation; as celestial powers; the powers of darkness.

15. That which has physical power; an army; a navy; a host; a military force.

Never such a power--

Was levied in the body of a land.

16. Legal authority; warrant; as a power of attorney; an agent invested with ample power The envoy has full powers to negotiate a treaty.

17. In arithmetic and algebra, the product arising from the multiplication of a number or quantity into itself; as, a cube is the third power; the biquadrate is the fourth power

18. In Scripture, right; privilege. John 1:12. 1 Corinthians 9:4.

19. Angels, good or bad. Colossians 1:11. Ephesians 6:10.

20. Violence, force; compulsion. Ezekiel 4:1.

21. Christ is called the power of God, as through him and his gospel, God displays his power and authority in ransoming and saving sinners. 1 Corinthians 1:18.

22. The powers of heaven may denote the celestial luminaries. Matthew 24:30.

23. Satan is said to have the power of death, as he introduced sin, the cause of death, temporal and eternal, and torments men with the feat of death and future misery.

I'm breaking this into another thread or two so that it will not be too long for one to keep their thoughts focus.

Quote from: RB on Wed Jan 27, 2021 - 04:10:16
4WD, you are using the word power and liberty as though they have the same meaning and they do not. God chose the word power for a reason, not liberty.

Oh RB. God did not chose the word power, the translators of the KJV chose the word power.  God actually chose the word ̓ἐξουσία [exousia].  The meaning of that word according to Strong's:

From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

So one more time you have been led astray by your false notion of the KJV having been translated by God.  It was not.  It was translated by men authorized by and at the direction of King James I of England.

I appreciate all your work looking into the various meanings and usages of the English word power.  You should have used that time more wisely and looked up the various meanings and usages of the Greek word ἐξουσία [exousia]

Moreover if you had actually studied what you posted and in fact highlighted, you would see that Webster actually agrees with Strong's  Note what was listed for the meaning of power in your number 18, namely, "In Scripture, right; privilege. John 1:12. 1 Corinthians 9:4."

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Jan 26, 2021 - 17:44:49RB, We don't have to look at other verses. 

Are you saying it is not necessary, or wise to look at other scriptures? Doing so at  3 Resurrections concern on: Yesterday at 10:12:15.

Quote from: 4WD Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 17:44:49 We can, but that is not necessary. Let me give you the ESV version of verse 12: But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, Surely you will not argue with how one becomes a child of God.

4WD men have debated and argued this since Abel and Cain, but much more so since Jesus Christ's gospel began to be preached, with him (his faith and obedience) being the sole source of man's redemption from sin and condemnation. So, I ask you, do you believe that Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection was important? If yes, then in what manner would you say so? For me and my house, we believe and teach that the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel making it God's power for BOTH our legal and practical salvation while living in this world. We believe taht man is born again based on two immutable acts of God~his oath and promises of grace to his elect, the SAME oath and promised made to Abraham concerning his Son Issac. The perfect and BIBLICAL allegory given by God through Paul to us in Galatians four.

Quote from: PaulGalatians 4:22-31~"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."

Maybe later we can come back to these wonderful scriptures. Bottom line, children of God are children of his promises that he purposed to show grace to according to his own will, their will played no part in securing their spiritula birth just as Isaac did not do one thing of his own flesh to cause him to become the son born of the Spirit. You reject this biblical allegory because you believe in man's power/strength to do spiritual acts pleasing to God APART from the indwelling Spirit of God~that's impossible. God's elect know they fall short even with the indwelling Spirit to our own shame~much more so are those void of the Spirit of God and are still living after the flesh.

Quote from: 4WD Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 17:44:49   So then who were born again? 

ONLY those chosen of God, period~ With the evidence of having the power of faith and THAT FAITH was secured for us by CHRIST.

Quote from: PaulGalatians 2:20,21~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness/our faith comes ONLY by the life of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. We preach Christ, you preach man's ability to do what Christ did for his people. Big difference Mr. 4WD, you might want to stop and rethink your gospel that you have come to embraced~it is another gospel pure and simple.

Quote from: 4WD Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 17:44:49Clearly those who He gave that right (power, liberty) to.

Clearly to those he gave POWER to~yes, but power is to be understood according to its true definition~ ability or strength for we were without strength spiritually speaking.

Quote from: PaulRomans 5:6-10~"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

Quote from: 4WD Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 17:44:49Who were they

Those to whom POWER was given to.~they, after being born of God's Spirit from that point forward POWER was present to believe, received, and follow his word.

Quote from: 4WD Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 17:44:49Okay, again, let's go to the verse in John that you posted, 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.  Who does that verse say has been (is) born of God? The answer; everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ.

PROVING that faith is an evidence not a condition that you and others preach!

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Jan 27, 2021 - 04:55:41Moreover if you had actually studied what you posted and in fact highlighted, you would see that Webster actually agrees with Strong's  Note what was listed for the meaning of power in your number 18, namely, "In Scripture, right; privilege. John 1:12. 1 Corinthians 9:4."

Of course I read his sense of the word he gave it~and agree since it supports John 1:13. That right is GIVEN and not to all but those chosen of God, just as Isaac was chosen over Ismael by God.

Quote from: RB on Wed Jan 27, 2021 - 05:22:40
Of course I read his sense of the word he gave it~and agree since it supports John 1:13. That right is GIVEN and not to all but those chosen of God, just as Isaac was chosen over Ismael by God.

Unfortunately for you that is not what John 1:10-13 says.  Even in the somewhat stumbling phrasing of the KJV it is clear that those who were born of God are those to whom the power, or right, was given.  That that power, or right, was given to them that received Jesus, i.e., whoever believed on Jesus' name.

Quote from: RB on Wed Jan 27, 2021 - 05:11:49PROVING that faith is an evidence not a condition that you and others preach!

RB, you keep repeating that, but that is not what the Bible says.