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Quote from: 4WD on Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 12:51:21
Romans 1:18-25 means precisely what it says, which is all quite different than what you claimed.  But that's par for the course.

I'll take that as a no.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 13, 2021 - 17:32:39
I'll take that as a no.

See that, you're wrong yet one more time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7604721.stm

quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.

QuoteAncient trees recorded in mines

Spectacular fossil forests have been found in the coal mines of Illinois by a US-UK team of researchers.
The group reported one discovery last year, but has since identified a further five examples.

The ancient vegetation - now turned to rock - is visible in the ceilings of mines covering thousands of hectares.

These were among the first forests to evolve on the planet, Dr Howard Falcon-Lang told the British Association Science Festival in Liverpool.

"These are the largest fossil forests found anywhere in the world at any point in geological time," he told reporters.

"It is quite extraordinary to find a fossil landscape preserved over such a vast area; and we are talking about an area the size of (the British city of) Bristol."

The forests grew just a few million years apart some 300 million years ago; and are now stacked one on top of another.

It appears the ancient land experienced repeated periods of subsidence and flooding which buried the forests in a vertical sequence.

They have since become visible because of the extensive mining operations in the border area between the states of Illinois, Indiana and Kentucky.

Once the coal seams have been removed (what were, essentially, the compacted soils of the forests), it is possible to go into the tunnels and look up at what would have been lying on the forest floors.

"It's a really exciting experience to drive down into these mines; it's pitch black," the Bristol University research said.

"It's kind of an odd view looking at a forest bottom-up. You can actually see upright tree stumps that are pointed vertically up above your head with the roots coming down; and adjacent to those tree stumps you see all the litter.

"We found 30m-long trunks that had fallen with their crowns perfectly preserved."

The researchers believe their study of these ancient forests could give hints to how modern rainforests might react in a warmer world.

The six forests straddle a period in Earth history 306 million years ago that saw a rapid shift from an icehouse climate with big polar ice caps to a greenhouse climate in which the ice caps would have melted.
"The fascinating thing we've discovered is that the rainforests dramatically collapse approximately coincident with the greenhouse warming," explained Dr Falcon-Lang.

"Long-lived forests dominated by giant club moss trees almost overnight (in a geological sense) are replaced by rather weedy fern vegetation."

The next stage of the research is to try to refine the timings of events all those years ago, and work out the exact environmental conditions that existed. The thresholds that triggered the ancient collapse can then be compared with modern circumstances.

Same old same old. Deep time evolutionists seeing only what they want to see according to the dictates of their chosen theory, faith, and world view. As almost always if not always, flooding and mud were involved burying the evidence, one forest after another on top of the previous one. As almost always again, the level of preservation defies their own claims of millions of years over which these events transpired. You simply cannot get the level of preservation and detail described above concerning the preservation of vegetation over slow millions of years occurring events.

This evidence is not in favor of slowly sinking and flooding events over millions of years, which absolutely will not allow for such preservation as described, it was the rapid deposit of huge amounts of materials during the global flood. Literally stacking one forest upon another during this planetary upheaval caused by the judgement of God as described in the holy scriptures. Therefore is the world filled with these coal seams, many of which are hundreds of miles long and up to 90 feet deep. This planet is absolutely littered with the buried plants and animals of the pre-flood world. Which those of the deep time evolutionary faith wrongly interpret according to the dictates of the same.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6577009.stm

Giant fossil rainforest unearthed

More of the same. Entire forest buried with excellent preservation.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article241683666.html

Prehistoric forest of massive trees found buried in sea floor off Alabama, NOAA says

https://www.history.com/news/ancient-chinese-forest-found-buried-by-volcano

Ancient Chinese Forest Found Buried By Volcano

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/9162637/storm-hannah-uncovers-mysterious-sunken-forest-buried-under-peat-and-sand-for-4500-years/

ANCIENT MYSTERY Storm Hannah uncovers mysterious sunken forest buried under peat and sand for 4,500 years

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3593219/North-sea-reveals-7-000-year-old-human-footprints-ancient-forest-Woodland-stretched-Denmark-covered-ocean.html

Ancient forest lost beneath the North Sea is uncovered: Shifting sands reveal 7,000-year-old woodland and human footprints

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/20/prehistoric-forest-borth-cardigan-bay-wales

Prehistoric forest arises in Cardigan Bay after storms strip away sand

https://www.kold.com/2021/01/26/greek-scientists-say-theyve-found-million-year-fossilized-tree/

Greek scientists say they've found complete petrified tree buried for 20 million years

https://www.windows2universe.org/headline_universe/old_forest.html&edu=high

Ancient Forest Found in Michigan

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/08/08/receding-swiss-glaciers-incoveniently-reveal-4000-year-old-forests-and-make-it-clear-that-glacier-retreat-is-nothing-new/

Receding Swiss glaciers incoveniently reveal 4000 year old forests – and make it clear that glacier retreat is nothing new

https://gizmodo.com/the-oldest-forest-ever-discovered-was-hidden-in-the-cat-5889326

The Oldest Forest Ever Discovered Was Hidden In the Catskills

https://frontierscientists.com/2013/09/forest-revealed-under-glacial-ice/

A forest revealed under glacial ice

https://www.al.com/wire/2013/03/ancient_underwater_forest_off.html

Ancient underwater forest off Alabama is much older than scientists thought

https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=20010116&slug=buriedforest16

Buried ancient forest clogs Fife sewer project

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/ancient-forest-found-indian-ocean

How an Ancient Himalayan Forest Wound Up at the Bottom of the Indian Ocean

On and on it goes. Forest after forest found buried all over the world. "Scientists" speculating this or that cause or condition, according to their faith. Nevertheless, they are buried all over the world, like so very very much else. No telling how much more has been found through the ages unrecorded, or even presently unrecorded or possibly even covered up if it suggests to much against the present narrative. The vast amount of information which is recorded alone, suggests so very much more unrecorded and yet undiscovered. Will the world ever accept the bibles global flood account though? Nah, not enough evidence, and never will be when those examining it are of another faith of their own creation. The evidence of creation and the flood is literally lying buried all over the world, but being rejected by those who refuse the bibles testimony. So be it. This too, shall be addressed in the judgment.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Feb 14, 2021 - 03:55:58
See that, you're wrong yet one more time.

What is he wrong about?

Both of you are acting just like men..... 

You

QuoteQuote from: 4WD on Yesterday at 12:51:21
Romans 1:18-25 means precisely what it says, which is all quite different than what you claimed.  But that's par for the course

And Amo,  you  seemingly answering with links and replies of

Prehistoric forest of massive trees found buried............

I find no connection between the two.

Quote from: Rella on Sun Feb 14, 2021 - 17:07:28
What is he wrong about?

He said,

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 10:00:12
We are all so sad, and need to grow up 4WD, that is why Jesus came to save us.

and tried to say that Romans 1:18-25 says that creation itself was sufficient to reveal the faith needed for salvation.

And his totally wrong on both counts.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Feb 14, 2021 - 17:20:47

QuoteQuote from: Amo on Fri Feb 12, 2021 - 10:00:12
We are all so sad, and need to grow up 4WD, that is why Jesus came to save us.

He said,  and tried to say that Romans 1:18-25 says that creation itself was sufficient to reveal the faith needed for salvation.

And his totally wrong on both counts.

Yes, I agree that these are both wrong, but he is right when he says was all are so sad, and we likely do ALL need to grow up.

Romans 1:18-25

From Amos reply

QuoteRom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

There is not one word within these scriptures that even gives a hint as to .....  , scratching my head for the words I want to use....... There is not one word within these scriptures that even gives a hint as to the the faith that may have been instilled within the created creations,( the jury is still out on when faith becomes faith)  but talks of the basic depravity of man.

Of course creation itself was not sufficient to reveal the faith needed for salvation.

There was nothing revealed about a salvation faith in these scriptures at all, nor was the intended meaning.

Quote from: Rella on Mon Feb 15, 2021 - 08:45:41
He said,  and tried to say that Romans 1:18-25 says that creation itself was sufficient to reveal the faith needed for salvation.

And his totally wrong on both counts.


Yes, I agree that these are both wrong, but he is right when he says was all are so sad, and we likely do ALL need to grow up.

If you will look back, you will see that was a response to my telling him he needs to grow up.
Romans 1:18-25

Quote from: RellaThere is not one word within these scriptures that even gives a hint as to .....  , scratching my head for the words I want to use....... There is not one word within these scriptures that even gives a hint as to the the faith that may have been instilled within the created creations,( the jury is still out on when faith becomes faith)  but talks of the basic depravity of man.

Of course creation itself was not sufficient to reveal the faith needed for salvation.

There was nothing revealed about a salvation faith in these scriptures at all, nor was the intended meaning.

Which was my response to him concerning his earlier claim to the contrary.

Quote from: Amo on Tue Feb 09, 2021 - 22:55:34
You took one sentence of what I said, and turned it into something I never meant. Acknowledging the creation is a first step in salvation. Those who will not at the every least acknowledge God in this, cannot be saved. This truth leads directly to Jesus Christ. You know, this guy -

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins : 15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Those who deny the creation, deny the creator who is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....................................................
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I say again, those who deny the creation, deny the Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Those who deny the creation are without excuse, just as the Apostle Paul testifies.

Did you miss my above post 4WD?

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

What do you think the above people have no excuse for 4WD? Rella?

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 11:15:35
Did you miss my above post 4WD?

No.

Faith 101.

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Feb 26, 2021 - 11:15:35


Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

What do you think the above people have no excuse for 4WD? Rella?

Romans 1:18 is a just statement.

But it is hardly applicable in this thread titled Creation Scientists.

Amo,you said

You took one sentence of what I said, and turned it into something I never meant. Acknowledging the creation is a first step in salvation. Those who will not at the every least acknowledge God in this, cannot be saved. This truth leads directly to Jesus Christ.

Acknowledging the creation is a first step in salvation

While I am a die hard creation believer, the devil's advocate in me tells me to ask you Why? And, in your own words... ask you to explain at what point you believe
that creation by God starts the process.

You see, for myself... and it is for myself only that I state this...I personally believe
that God created all ,but the beginning of this globe we walk on did not come into existence a mere 7,000 years ago.

I believe that God created this globe while creating all else he has done in the heavenlies and solar systems...and that this globe was not created just for
mankind  to keep him grounded.

So bearing that in mind, when you say acknowledging creation is A first step in salvation, you must be able to clarify what part of creation you are talking about.

You also have to acknowledge there certainly are those people who have a belief in God as creator who will never be saved as a "Christian" simply because their religious education keeps Him i the background. Muslims, non-messianic Jews to name a couple.

You said

This truth leads directly to Jesus Christ.

Over the years I have had more then 1conversation with a Jewish man.

From talks on Creation and Adam and Eve .
He will always say... he believes in Jesus, and Jesus "may" be God. and things he learned while married to his Roman Catholic wife. BUT never will this late sixties man call Jesus his savior.

So I have to say, in a way your statement here is false.

Quote from: Rella on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 11:35:14
Romans 1:18 is a just statement.

But it is hardly applicable in this thread titled Creation Scientists.

Amo,you said

You took one sentence of what I said, and turned it into something I never meant. Acknowledging the creation is a first step in salvation. Those who will not at the every least acknowledge God in this, cannot be saved. This truth leads directly to Jesus Christ.

Acknowledging the creation is a first step in salvation

While I am a die hard creation believer, the devil's advocate in me tells me to ask you Why? And, in your own words... ask you to explain at what point you believe
that creation by God starts the process.

You see, for myself... and it is for myself only that I state this...I personally believe
that God created all ,but the beginning of this globe we walk on did not come into existence a mere 7,000 years ago.

I believe that God created this globe while creating all else he has done in the heavenlies and solar systems...and that this globe was not created just for
mankind  to keep him grounded.

So bearing that in mind, when you say acknowledging creation is A first step in salvation, you must be able to clarify what part of creation you are talking about.

You also have to acknowledge there certainly are those people who have a belief in God as creator who will never be saved as a "Christian" simply because their religious education keeps Him i the background. Muslims, non-messianic Jews to name a couple.

You said

This truth leads directly to Jesus Christ.

Over the years I have had more then 1conversation with a Jewish man.

From talks on Creation and Adam and Eve .
He will always say... he believes in Jesus, and Jesus "may" be God. and things he learned while married to his Roman Catholic wife. BUT never will this late sixties man call Jesus his savior.

So I have to say, in a way your statement here is false.

My words are worthless, apart from their agreement with God's word. Go back to post reply 501 regarding Faith 101 and read the first highlighted and underlined part. I never said anyone who believes in a creation would be saved. I do most certainly lean towards anyone who denies creation is in danger of losing their soul. Christ is the creator, those who reject this biblical truth, reject Jesus Christ.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.......................
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Quote from: Amo on Sun Feb 28, 2021 - 21:20:46
My words are worthless, apart from their agreement with God's word. Go back to post reply 501 regarding Faith 101 and read the first highlighted and underlined part. I never said anyone who believes in a creation would be saved. I do most certainly lean towards anyone who denies creation is in danger of losing their soul. Christ is the creator, those who reject this biblical truth, reject Jesus Christ.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.......................
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Thank you for your clarification.

I fully agree in the way you have presented this

Amo, Rella,

There is nothing in Romans 1:18-32, presenting God's wrath against unrighteousness, that says anything about Jesus being the Son of God or about the Gospel.  It is only a statement that creation itself is a witness to the existence of God.  A saving faith is a faith in Jesus Christ, who as the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins and was raised again.  Acknowledging the existence of God is not sufficient for salvation.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 07:51:07
Amo, Rella,

There is nothing in Romans 1:18-32, presenting God's wrath against unrighteousness, that says anything about Jesus being the Son of God or about the Gospel.  It is only a statement that creation itself is a witness to the existence of God.  A saving faith is a faith in Jesus Christ, who as the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins and was raised again.  Acknowledging the existence of God is not sufficient for salvation.

As I said before NOT everyone who believes in God will be savedunder the Christian belief of what that means.

Romans 1 18: 1-17 is Jesus centered. You cannot deny that.

Vs 16 states....  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

You cannot separate God,the creator, away from Jesus, the savior.

The rest regarding God's wrath does not need to be Jesus centered.

God as creator, is sufficient. God's "Wrath on Unrighteousness" is center to the balance of this chapter.

"although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God" so God the Father basically wiped His hands of them.

Jesus was the word."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

To deny God is to deny Jesus. Ergo... no salvation.

Quote from: Rella on Mon Mar 01, 2021 - 19:39:27Romans 1 18: 1-17 is Jesus centered. You cannot deny that.

I didn't deny that.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 04:53:00
I didn't deny that.

But you did say this...

Quote"There is nothing in Romans 1:18-32, presenting God's wrath against unrighteousness, that says anything about Jesus being the Son of God or about the Gospel.

When you have the first half of a chapter talking about God  and who they are... and then comes a very, very definitive statement of  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." (vs17)

Then it back half of the chapter talks about God's wrath against the ungodly and the unrighteous it should be clear as a bell that  these people in the back half of the chapter have fallen away from God/Jesus. (The creator) 

It is all inclusive.

God/Jesus and the unjust.

Rella, Romans 1:18-32 is not speaking about those who have heard the gospel. It is speaking about those who did/do not have the Scriptures.  They do/did not have access to Romans 1:1-17.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 08:44:28
Rella, Romans 1:18-32 is not speaking about those who have heard the gospel. It is speaking about those who did/do not have the Scriptures.  They do/did not have access to Romans 1:1-17.

You are aware that the original text was written without punctuation etc.

So 1 - 17 went right into 18.

In your opinion, What was Paul's reason to expound on God/Jesus in 1-17 then do a 180 into 18-32?

Quote from: Rella on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 13:47:39
You are aware that the original text was written without punctuation etc.

So 1 - 17 went right into 18.

In your opinion, What was Paul's reason to expound on God/Jesus in 1-17 then do a 180 into 18-32?

I don't usually try to guess why the authors wrote what they wrote.  I have enough trouble trying to understand what they wrote.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Mar 02, 2021 - 08:44:28
Rella, Romans 1:18-32 is not speaking about those who have heard the gospel. It is speaking about those who did/do not have the Scriptures.  They do/did not have access to Romans 1:1-17.

Who do you think these people were? What about that which the scriptures under examination themselves say these people did know? Observe the highlighted portions -

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Paul was addressing people of the past and present, that is in his day. In verse 18 he addresses those who hold the truth, present tense, in unrighteousness. These people are said to have been shone the truth by God, verse 19. Verse 20 addresses that which may be clearly seen, so that they are without excuse. Verse 21 says they knew God, but would not glorify Him as God by denying the creation. Verse 28 says they did not want to retain a knowledge of God.  Verse 32 says they knew that the judgment of God condemned them to death for such things, but they chose them anyway. This does not sound like a description of ignorant people to me.

Do you suppose Cain was ignorant when he killed Abel because Abel's sacrifice was accepted by God and his was not? Abel offered up the only acceptable sacrifice to God, a lamb which represented Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. Cain was not ignorant of this, but he thought he could offer up the works of his own hands as a sacrifice to God, which of course was not and could not be accepted.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

What faith do you suppose it was that made Abel's sacrifice more excellent than Cains? Faith is concerning things one knows and believes, not lucky guesses or chance. The gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached to humanity from the time of our fall. But all of this becomes increasingly cloudy and indiscernible when the creation and flood accounts are disregarded in favor of the theory of evolution. Back then they rejected God's testimony through his chosen prophets, and made up their own stories and gods to worship. Just as evolutionists today have made up their own story, according as they suppose to their own superior intellect, thus denying those same prophets of old and even Jesus Christ and His apostles. The gospel was preached to them as well as us, only many of them perished in unbelief, as many today will as well.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

God's works of creation were finished from the foundation of the world. In six days He created it, and on the seventh He rested from all His works. This is basic faith 101 revealed in the first few verses of Hebrews 11, the basic faith chapter. Evolution destroys these basics, and therefore the gospel of Jesus Christ as well.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made........
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Abandon the theory of evolution authored by the supposed wisdom of fallen humanity, and come and worship your creator, sustainer, and Savior Jesus Christ.

QuoteIf that is true, you would think God would be smart enough to give faith to everyone and then none would be lost. After all Peter said that God wishes that none would perish but that all would come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).  Doe He not even know what He, Himself, wishes for?

He has given that offer of faith to every single person on Earth through His Son Jesus Christ.  But most people choose to reject that gift.  Everyone has some amount of faith.  But the secular world, and many people claiming to be Christians, but continually placing their hope on the wrong things to save them put their faith in the wrong things.

If a Christian is not supposed to place their faith in scripture and Christ, exactly what are they supposed to place their faith in?

QuoteAw don't give me that crap.  In this case, I am arguing with you and your really bad interpretation of Romans 1:18-25.  It is but one of many of your really bad interpretations of passages of God's word.

No, Amo is correct.  Romans 1:18-35 does not need vast volumes of commentaries consulted, or digging through Wuest's or Vincent's word studies to figure out what this scripture means.  Many people make scripture much more complicated than it actually is, just to support a personal bias.  Are some passages difficult?  Of course they are.  Romans 1:18-35 is not one of them.  That is why so many people today don't like that portion of scripture, or continually attempt to either make it say something it doesn't say, or remove it's fangs somehow.  Verse 20 couldn't be more clear.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Paul means what he says.  He's making a very strong and very specific point.  People reject God.  They do so knowingly.  And they have no excuse.  They choose to serve evil and actively pursue it.  In a very real sense, people who reject the Creation account and a world-wide flood as being an actual historical account reject a good deal of what God is trying to teach us because everything is tied to the Creation account.  You screw that up and you are not going to get anything right after that.  Your doctrine will always be jacked up in some way if you get this simple concept wrong.  That's why it always amazes me when people on a Christian forum, who should obviously know better, because of the mantle they choose to carry, can say the Flood was localized.  Because that certainly is not what scripture says.  In other words, you are saying God was wrong.

Quote from: Cobalt1959 on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 02:42:32
No, Amo is correct.  Romans 1:18-35 does not need vast volumes of commentaries consulted, or digging through Wuest's or Vincent's word studies to figure out what this scripture means. 

You need to go back further in this thread to see what has taken place.  My objection to Amo here was his premise in his reply #471 where he said,

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jan 30, 2021 - 15:37:50
There is no excuse for the unbeliever. Creation itself is enough to give every man the faith necessary unto salvation. The Spirit of God is always striving unto salvation in every individual. It must be accepted or rejected by all. There will be none with an excuse in the end.

He is wrong.  Romans 1:18-35 does not say that Creation itself is enough to give every man the faith necessary unto salvation.  That is absolutely, positively WRONG.  What it says is that Creation itself is enough to prove the existence of God.  It says " For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened"(v.21) There is nothing in Romans 1:18-35 that speaks of Jesus, His being the Son of God, His death on the cross for our sins.  The Gospel, which in verse 16, Paul says is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes is not revealed in the creation.  That is revealed in the specific revelation by the word of God, the Bible.

Quote from: Cobalt1959 on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 02:12:18He has given that offer of faith to every single person on Earth through His Son Jesus Christ. 

That is not true.  Paul tells us in Romans that faith comes from hearing about Christ. " How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? " (Rom 10:14,15) The Gospel message is spread through preaching about Christ.  Paul tells us there that one can't believe in what they have never heard.  That is the reason for Jesus' own words to His disciples in Matthew 28:19-20.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 05:53:59
That is not true.  Paul tells us in Romans that faith comes from hearing about Christ. " How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?  And how are they to preach unless they are sent? " (Rom 10:14,15) The Gospel message is spread through preaching about Christ.  Paul tells us there that one can't believe in what they have never heard.  That is the reason for Jesus' own words to His disciples in Matthew 28:19-20.

So, are you saying that all who have not heard the gospel message are lost, or beyond God's judgment? To ignorant to be judged? Is this what Paul teaches? Why will you make his words in one place, contradict his words in another place? Do you think this is what he intended, or what you have made of his words?

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Have you supposed God is not able to judge those who may not have had opportunity to hear the gospel? The above testimony given by Paul addresses and dispels any such notion. The Holy Spirit of God works upon every person's conscience unto good, which being rejected is and leads to evil. Our deeds, or fruits reveal either or. I know this to be true, having struggled internally with right and wrong, good and evil, before I ever heard the gospel or considered God. The gospel brings truth, clarity, focus, and divinely inspired understanding of the reality of God's word. It does in fact bring greater responsibility upon the one who hears it, concerning accepting or rejecting truth and righteousness which walk hand in hand. This because our Savior is the truth, the way, and the life. Nevertheless, those who have not heard it, will still be judged by God according to their reaction to the Holy Spirits convictions of their consciences, as Paul himself testified. Again, I know this to be true, as I myself struggled over such issues before I ever considered God or heard the gospel. So does everyone else who will be honest with themselves.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There will be none in the end complaining that they never heard the gospel message. Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. We will all know who it was which convicted our hearts and minds concerning sin and righteousness, and what choices we made concerning the same. PRAISE GOD! For His ways are truth, and righteousness, and merciful, and just.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? 24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 09:26:27So, are you saying that all who have not heard the gospel message are lost, or beyond God's judgment?

Why do you even ask such a question?  I did not say that; I didn't suggest that. More of the faulty extrapolation that you seem to do so much of the time.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:

Quote from: The Barbarian on Thu Mar 11, 2021 - 09:08:12
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:

Yes, so what is your point?

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Mar 11, 2021 - 09:23:32
Yes, so what is your point?

There is such a thing as natural law; God gives all of us a sense of right and wrong, even if we have never heard His name or read His word.   Those who have not heard, are still responsible and are judged by that law.

Quote from: The Barbarian on Fri Mar 12, 2021 - 10:38:03
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:


There is such a thing as natural law; God gives all of us a sense of right and wrong, even if we have never heard His name or read His word.   Those who have not heard, are still responsible and are judged by that law.

Yes, I agree with you on that.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Mar 06, 2021 - 10:21:48
Why do you even ask such a question?  I did not say that; I didn't suggest that. More of the faulty extrapolation that you seem to do so much of the time.

It was a question 4WD, not faulty extrapolation. If I had said you do believe all who have not heard the gospel were lost, that would be faulty extrapolation. Your argument seemed to me to be suggesting that the judgment of humanity is only in relation to those who have heard the gospel. Thus, as I have understood it, you deny that the evidence of creation is enough to convince people of that truth unto judgment as suggested by Paul in Romans 1. Therefore the question. Stop faultily extrapolating that I have made an accusation, in asking you a question for clarification. If you please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbdwVTMLt3U

A good video addressing the Neanderthals. A bit lengthy but informative. For some reason, the video doesn't actually start until a couple of minutes in. Fast forward about two minutes to the start.