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This post started out as an answer to yogi in the topic And this is wrong?.... why? Where's the Thief on the Cross?.  Click here to go to that topic.

Quote from: yogi bear on Tue Jan 03, 2023 - 13:33:15
Now if you would be so nice to expand on "It's a prison break.  He attacked it, and set the captives free." What captives and what happened to them after that?

The NT teachings on Hades and Resurrection come straight out of the Book of Enoch.  Let's prove it.

Both Enoch and the Bible show there to be 3 divisions within the underworld - one for the righteous, one for the wicked, and one for the martyrs:

Enoch Chapter 22

1 From thence I [Enoch] went to another place, [a] mountain of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.

3 Then Raphael, one of the holy angels who was with me, answered and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period, till the Great Judgement (comes) upon them.'

I saw [the spirit of] a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it?  Whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'

8 Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated.

A division has been made (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water.

And such [a division] has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth, and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetimes. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse forever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them forever.

And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners.

Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgment nor shall they be raised from thence.'

14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'

In the Bible, the division between righteous and wicked is clearly seen in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and I think we all agree on this anyway, so I will leave it at that.

The existence of a "third place" for martyrs who bring accusation before God is seen in Revelation 6:9-10:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The accusation of Abel's blood in particular is also seen in Hebrews 12:

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem... 24 and to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [the blood] of Abel.

So then, the simplest answer to your question 'who are the captives?' is that it refers to this group - the martyrs.  At the time of the crucifixion, Jesus went to Hades and freed them from captivity, as also shown in Ephesians 4:

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The answer to your second question 'what happened to them after that?' is also answered here.  He took them into the heavens.

This is also laid out in Revelation 20, where the martyrs are shown to be raised from the dead first, and there is a gap of a thousand years before the rest of the righteous are raised:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

We can also see Jesus promise this first resurrection of martyrs in multiple places in the gospels:

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. (Luke 9:24, et al)

Pre-mil Christians often (correctly) point out that at His return, Jesus is seen to be bringing the saints with him, while post-mil Christians (also correctly) like to point out that the dead are not raised until He has actually descended.  This contradiction is here explained: it is the group of martyrs that are descending with Christ, and the rest are resurrected later.  We can see this in Jude 1:

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

And that brings us full circle, because Jude is quoting from Enoch 1:

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His Holy Ones, to execute judgement upon all, and to destroy all the ungodly, and to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

We know that Enoch is indisputably older than the New Testament, because we have a copy of it from the 1st century.   It seems clear to me that the New Testament does far more than quote Enoch once, it draws major points of doctrine from it.

Jarrod

Thank you for your answer and the time you put into it. Makes the best answer I have had on this question. Makes sense to me. Again thanks for your reply.

Further validation of Enoch, for sure.

Wonderful.....

A few problems with your comment, Jarrod.

You have proposed that the "captives" of Ephesians 4 who were led out of "prison" by Christ were only martyrs.  That is not so according to the context of Ephesians 4.  These "gifts" given to men that were the "multitude of captives" Christ led out of the grave were composed of those who had been apostles (meaning "sent ones"), prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. (Ephesians 4:11).   Some may very well have been martyred up until that time in AD 33, but that is not necessarily descriptive of all of them. 

These whom Christ led out of the grave as that "multitude of captives" were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints which Christ raised from those graves around Jerusalem on that same day of His own resurrection.  They were called the "First-fruits", just as Christ was also called the "First-fruits", and they numbered 144,000 coming from those listed tribes in Revelation 7. 

You have also proposed that these "captives" ascended with Christ.  That is not possible that they ascended at that time in Acts 1, because Revelation 15:8 says that NO MAN was able to enter into the temple in heaven until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished. 

You have also proposed that the returning Christ was prophesied to bring the saints with Him, as in Jude 1:14.  Those "holy ones" that Jude / Enoch wrote of are to be interpreted as being the angels that Christ brings with Him.  After all, we are told in Matthew 13:39 that at the resurrection, "the reapers are the angels". 

These angelic holy ones are also referred to as coming with the returning Son of Man in Mark 8:36.  "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father WITH THE HOLY ANGELS."  The idea was not presented that Christ would bring along with Him from heaven any resurrected saints at His return.  What Christ taught was that He would return and have His accompanying angelic host of "holy ones" gather the resurrected elect from the four winds and "receive them unto Himself" at that point.  That is the point at which they were to enter heaven and its temple, which of necessity must be after the seven plagues are fulfilled.

You have also proposed that there is a thousand year "gap" between the resurrection of those in Revelation 20 and the next resurrection.  That is an incorrect chronology according to the context.  When the relatively small "remnant of the dead" came to life again, "THIS IS the "First Resurrection" group of those "captives" which were resurrected to live again, once the thousand years had "expired" in AD 33.   It was a total of 144,000 "First-fruits" - a relatively small number of resurrected saints, when compared to the entire total of humanity which will eventually experience the bodily resurrection to an incorruptible life. 

You may remember from previous posts that I consider the translated Enoch to be the same as the ancient, deathless Melchizedek.  Hebrews 7:8 said that this man Melchizedek was still alive as that book was being written.   If Enoch is the same as the then-present Melchizedek, then it is no wonder that the prophecies of Enoch were known to the first-century disciples.  The man himself was still on earth at that time, and could have personally spoken to the first-century disciples about his prophecy from ancient days as the seventh from Adam.   

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 04, 2023 - 11:05:41
A few problems with your comment, Jarrod.

I could believe there are some unresolved problems.  From what I can tell, scholarship comparing Enoch to the New Testament is basically non-existent, so what you are looking at above is basically the work of my own hands.  You should ALL be fact-checking me on this. 

As for Revelation... I am no novice, but there is very little in scholarship that is agreed upon about Revelation.  That you find fault with my interpretation is not surprising, since our eschatological positions are not the same.  I think I am closer to you than most of the regulars here, though... there's probably enough common ground to stand on that we could talk about it. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 04, 2023 - 11:05:41
You have proposed that the "captives" of Ephesians 4 who were led out of "prison" by Christ were only martyrs.  That is not so according to the context of Ephesians 4.  These "gifts" given to men that were the "multitude of captives" Christ led out of the grave were composed of those who had been apostles (meaning "sent ones"), prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. (Ephesians 4:11).   Some may very well have been martyred up until that time in AD 33, but that is not necessarily descriptive of all of them.

They aren't just New Testament Christian martyrs.  It includes ALL of the Old Testament martyrs as well, which are essentially the prophets.  Virtually ALL of the prophets were murdered in one fashion or the other, most of them by the Israelite kings.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 04, 2023 - 11:05:41
These whom Christ led out of the grave as that "multitude of captives" were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints which Christ raised from those graves around Jerusalem on that same day of His own resurrection.  They were called the "First-fruits", just as Christ was also called the "First-fruits", and they numbered 144,000 coming from those listed tribes in Revelation 7.

I agree with your identification as being those raised in Matthew 27 and the 144K in Revelation, and considered citing both in the opening post.  I did not because of (a) space, and (b) I am less than 100% certain on that account.

I am, however, certain that 144,000 people weren't physically raised from the dead in Jerusalem in the 1st century AD.  That would have tripled the population of the city, and would have been an unsustainable population for that time/place. #commonsense

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 04, 2023 - 11:05:41
You have also proposed that these "captives" ascended with Christ.  That is not possible that they ascended at that time in Acts 1, because Revelation 15:8 says that NO MAN was able to enter into the temple in heaven until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

The heavens in 1Enoch are expansive.  A large part of 1Enoch is concerned with describing all of the multiple heavens.  Even the eponymous character Enoch isn't permitted to go into all of them.
Coming from that perspective, there isn't a problem here.  The temple/tabernacle of the testimony shown in these verses is just one place, in one of the many heavens, where people aren't permitted.

I find that the Bible mostly shares this perspective of the heavens.  It is a relatively modern idea that there is just one heaven.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 04, 2023 - 11:05:41
You have also proposed that the returning Christ was prophesied to bring the saints with Him, as in Jude 1:14.  Those "holy ones" that Jude / Enoch wrote of are to be interpreted as being the angels that Christ brings with Him.  After all, we are told in Matthew 13:39 that at the resurrection, "the reapers are the angels".

These angelic holy ones are also referred to as coming with the returning Son of Man in Mark 8:36.  "Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father WITH THE HOLY ANGELS."  The idea was not presented that Christ would bring along with Him from heaven any resurrected saints at His return.  What Christ taught was that He would return and have His accompanying angelic host of "holy ones" gather the resurrected elect from the four winds and "receive them unto Himself" at that point.  That is the point at which they were to enter heaven and its temple, which of necessity must be after the seven plagues are fulfilled.

Your interpretation is plausible.  We know that Christ brings His angels with him to gather the elect.  But...

The language in Jude and Enoch does NOT demand that it is referring to just angels here.  "Holy ones" is elsewhere often translated as "saints," and this word frequently refers to the "dead in Christ" and martyrs in particular throughout the New Testament.  My interpretation is also plausible. (Indeed, the King James version gives it this meaning).

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 04, 2023 - 11:05:41
You have also proposed that there is a thousand year "gap" between the resurrection of those in Revelation 20 and the next resurrection.  That is an incorrect chronology according to the context.  When the relatively small "remnant of the dead" came to life again, "THIS IS the "First Resurrection" group of those "captives" which were resurrected to live again, once the thousand years had "expired" in AD 33.   It was a total of 144,000 "First-fruits" - a relatively small number of resurrected saints, when compared to the entire total of humanity which will eventually experience the bodily resurrection to an incorruptible life.

I don't follow your argument here.  You seem to have the (so-called) millennium ending in the 1st century, and I can't see how that makes any sense at all.  Maybe you can point me to a different topic here where your interpretation of Revelation 20 is discussed?

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 04, 2023 - 11:05:41
You may remember from previous posts that I consider the translated Enoch to be the same as the ancient, deathless Melchizedek.  Hebrews 7:8 said that this man Melchizedek was still alive as that book was being written.   If Enoch is the same as the then-present Melchizedek, then it is no wonder that the prophecies of Enoch were known to the first-century disciples.  The man himself was still on earth at that time, and could have personally spoken to the first-century disciples about his prophecy from ancient days as the seventh from Adam.

I have some idea of how you would arrive at that idea, but I don't agree with it.  I wouldn't mind discussing it, but probably not in this thread, as it strays from the topic.  New post?

Jarrod

Hey there Jarrod,

Sorry I'm late getting back to you on this post - I've had a siding crew here at the house all week, and I've been making a framework of stringers so I can pour a foundation for a set of flagstone porch steps.  My aging knee-bones are feeling the stress...  :-( 

You mentioned that 144,000 physically-resurrected saints would have been an improbable number for the city of Jerusalem's normal population to absorb.  Well, we know that Christ's resurrection was at Passover week, when every observant Jew was to travel to Jerusalem to keep the feast.  For one example, an actual census was taken at Passover in AD 66 by order of Nero, and was counted by the priests themselves.  That total was recorded as being conservatively estimated at two million, seven hundred thousand people present for the feast, when compared to the number of animal sacrifices counted (Wars 6,ch 9, 423-425). 

Even considering that AD 33 might not have had quite as many present in Jerusalem as that later AD 66 census, that group of 144,000 physically-raised "First-fruits" saints circulating among the Jews during that AD 33 Passover Festival would not have been as improbable a number as you think.   144,000 resurrected "First-fruits" would have only represented around 2% of the total of Passover attendees.

I agree with you that this group of 144,000 included martyred prophets from the OT times - just that not necessarily all of them had experienced martyrdom.  God was selective.  King David was a prophet, but was not martyred.  Isaiah's prophetess wife was not martyred, but may have been one of the resurrected prophets out of that 144,000 "First-fruits' .  In the parables, the "servants" (prophets) sent from the "vineyard owner" (God) were persecuted or beaten, but not all without exception were slain.  So I don't think you can claim that ALL without exception were martyrs that composed this group of 144,000 "First-fruits".

I also agree with you that there is more than just one "heaven".  Even Paul taught as much when he wrote about the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2).   But there is only one heaven where the ark of God's testament is located in heaven's temple, and THAT heaven of God's dwelling was not available for any resurrected individuals to enter into it until the 7 plagues were all fulfilled (Revelation 15:8).  So, I repeat, no resurrected individuals of that 144,000 "First-fruits" group ascended to God's presence in heaven with Christ in Acts 1.  They remained on earth.  For a time. 

Those "ten thousands of holy ones" coming with the returning Christ are described as "MYRIADS" of holy ones.  This was meant to reflect the Psalms 68:17 text which spoke of the chariots of God numbering 20,000.  "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of ANGELS: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place."  These ten thousands of holy ones (20,000) coming with the returning Christ were His ANGELIC forces, given the task of "reaping" the resurrected children of God and returning to heaven with them, to finally enter heaven's temple when those 7 plagues were over. 

As to your question regarding my position of the millennium being ended in the first century, I have written about this before at length in a number of posts.  Just one example was back over five years ago in a post called "What does the millennium mean to you?". 

It is quite simple to identify when the millennium "expired", regardless of whether you consider this to be a figurative number or a literal number (as I do). 

Satan was to be released for a "little season" when the millennium had "expired" (Revelation 20:3 & 7).
Satan was said to be ALREADY loosed on earth for that "short time" in Revelation 12:12, even before Revelation was being written by John.  "The devil HAS COME DOWN UNTO YOU, knowing that he hath but a SHORT TIME."  Since John said that Satan's "short time" / "little season" had ALREADY begun before he was writing Revelation, that means the millennium had to have expired prior to Revelation being written. 

That particular millennium was supposed to have ended at the time when the "remnant of the dead" coming to life again in the "First resurrection" had just taken place (Revelation 20:5).
Christ and the relatively small "remnant" (loipoi) of Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints WERE the "First-fruits" composing the "First resurrection", which took place in AD 33.  That means the millennium ENDED in AD 33 when Christ and the "First-fruits" / "First resurrection" had taken place.   

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 08, 2023 - 13:53:46
I've had a siding crew here at the house all week, and I've been making a framework of stringers so I can pour a foundation for a set of flagstone porch steps.  My aging knee-bones are feeling the stress...  :-( 

I feel you there.  I've been recovering from the flu, and I was feeling well enough yesterday to go out and try to shovel up the gopher mounds and try to fill their holes.  Pretty much wiped me out the rest of yesterday and today, too.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 08, 2023 - 13:53:46
You mentioned that 144,000 physically-resurrected saints would have been an improbable number for the city of Jerusalem's normal population to absorb.  Well, we know that Christ's resurrection was at Passover week, when every observant Jew was to travel to Jerusalem to keep the feast.  For one example, an actual census was taken at Passover in AD 66 by order of Nero, and was counted by the priests themselves.  That total was recorded as being conservatively estimated at two million, seven hundred thousand people present for the feast, when compared to the number of animal sacrifices counted (Wars 6,ch 9, 423-425).

Permit me a tangent, here... I tried to use ChatGPT to fact-check this, in addition to Googling the reference you supplied.  The AI repeatedly got the wrong answers, even after I literally gave it correct ones.  This was the end of that 'conversation:'

Quote from: ChatGPTAs an AI, I do not have the ability to access or use primary historical records... The information that I provide is based on my training data.

That's basically saying that they've scrubbed actual history to create a white-washed version of it that whoever is running the program pre-approved.  That's Orwellian.

Ok, back to topic.  In the same chapter (Wars 6, ch 9), Josephus lists total casualties for the entirety of the war at 1.1 million, and the total persons taken captive a little under 100K.  The math doesn't check out - some of these numbers have to be wrong.  That notwithstanding, I receive your point.  The artificially large population at Passover could conceivably mask a sudden influx of people. 

But what happens when the feast is over?  Did the resurrected leave back to the hills and nations?  Surely somebody noticed the priest Zechariah, who had been martyred within their lifetimes, was back?  Can you tell me with a straight face that the prophet Jeremiah returned, and had so little impact that nobody in history even mentioned it?  I remain skeptical of this theory.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 08, 2023 - 13:53:46
I agree with you that this group of 144,000 included martyred prophets from the OT times - just that not necessarily all of them had experienced martyrdom.  God was selective.  King David was a prophet, but was not martyred.  Isaiah's prophetess wife was not martyred, but may have been one of the resurrected prophets out of that 144,000 "First-fruits' .  In the parables, the "servants" (prophets) sent from the "vineyard owner" (God) were persecuted or beaten, but not all without exception were slain.  So I don't think you can claim that ALL without exception were martyrs that composed this group of 144,000 "First-fruits".

The idea that they were all martyrs comes straight from the Bible (and Enoch), the argument I make for it is right above us in the opening post.  Were there prophets who weren't martyred?  Yes, and that should exclude them from that resurrection.

Also, a prophetess is something OTHER than a prophet-who-happens-to-be-female, but I've already had my digression, so I'll leave that to you to study.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 08, 2023 - 13:53:46
I also agree with you that there is more than just one "heaven".  Even Paul taught as much when he wrote about the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:2).   But there is only one heaven where the ark of God's testament is located in heaven's temple, and THAT heaven of God's dwelling was not available for any resurrected individuals to enter into it until the 7 plagues were all fulfilled (Revelation 15:8).  So, I repeat, no resurrected individuals of that 144,000 "First-fruits" group ascended to God's presence in heaven with Christ in Acts 1.  They remained on earth.  For a time.

If you actually look at 1Enoch, I think you will find that God alone inhabits the highest heaven.  Nobody else ascends to that heaven.  Not Enoch.  Not the resurrected saints.  Not even the archangel who is guiding Enoch.  Revelation has Christ Himself ascending there, as the only exception.

It is entirely plausible for the resurrected saints to ascend to the heavens, without going to the highest heaven.  Indeed, it appears in both Enoch and Revelation, that Paradise (i.e. Gan Eden) now exists in the heavens specifically for that purpose (chapters 21-22).

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 08, 2023 - 13:53:46
Those "ten thousands of holy ones" coming with the returning Christ are described as "MYRIADS" of holy ones.  This was meant to reflect the Psalms 68:17 text which spoke of the chariots of God numbering 20,000.  "The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of ANGELS: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place."  These ten thousands of holy ones (20,000) coming with the returning Christ were His ANGELIC forces, given the task of "reaping" the resurrected children of God and returning to heaven with them, to finally enter heaven's temple when those 7 plagues were over.

I accept that Psalms 68 is being referenced here.  Did you perchance read the chapter?

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.  Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. (Psalms 68:17-18)

That bolded part is also quoted in Ephesians 4, and there we have Paul explaining it as Jesus descending into the bowels of the earth to set the captives free... this was also part of my opening post.  I think perhaps your citation here supports my ideas, better than it does yours.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 08, 2023 - 13:53:46
It is quite simple to identify when the millennium "expired", regardless of whether you consider this to be a figurative number or a literal number (as I do). 

Satan was to be released for a "little season" when the millennium had "expired" (Revelation 20:3 & 7).

Satan was said to be ALREADY loosed on earth for that "short time" in Revelation 12:12, even before Revelation was being written by John.  "The devil HAS COME DOWN UNTO YOU, knowing that he hath but a SHORT TIME."  Since John said that Satan's "short time" / "little season" had ALREADY begun before he was writing Revelation, that means the millennium had to have expired prior to Revelation being written.

You can't narrow down the time frame like that by using Revelation.  Revelation spans a goodly period of time, it speaks of things both into the past and the future, and it isn't necessarily chronological from start to finish.  Also, I believe there is multiple authorship in the book, so "when" it was written is a can of worms.

An immediate problem is that the devil isn't even bound til chapter 20, and you're back in chapter 12 claiming that he's already been loosed prior to the writing of the book.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Jan 08, 2023 - 13:53:46
That particular millennium was supposed to have ended at the time when the "remnant of the dead" coming to life again in the "First resurrection" had just taken place (Revelation 20:5).
Christ and the relatively small "remnant" (loipoi) of Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints WERE the "First-fruits" composing the "First resurrection", which took place in AD 33.  That means the millennium ENDED in AD 33 when Christ and the "First-fruits" / "First resurrection" had taken place.

Rather than raising (more) problems/objections for this interpretation, let me present something that perhaps you have not seen before.  1Enoch 91-93 contains a history of the world from beginning to end, organized into 10 "weeks" of generations.  There is a lot of Revelation (and Matthew) that answers to this prophecy very well:

1Enoch 93:
8 And after that in the sixth week all who live in it shall be blinded, And the hearts of all of them shall godlessly forsake wisdom.
And in it a man shall ascend; and at its close the house of dominion shall be burnt with fire, and the whole race of the chosen root shall be dispersed.
9 And after that in the seventh week shall an apostate generation arise, and many shall be its deeds, and all its deeds shall be apostate.
10 And at its close shall be elected the elect righteous of the eternal plant of righteousness, to receive sevenfold instruction concerning all His creation.
12 And after that there shall be another, the eighth week, that of righteousness,
And a sword shall be given to it that a righteous judgement may be executed on the oppressors, and sinners shall be delivered into the hands of the righteous.
13 And at its close they shall acquire houses through their righteousness, and a house shall be built for the Great King in glory for evermore, 14 and all mankind shall look to the path of uprightness.
And after that, in the ninth week, the righteous judgement shall be revealed to the whole world, and all the works of the godless shall vanish from all the earth, and the world shall be written down for destruction.
15 And after this, in the tenth week in the seventh part, there shall be the great eternal judgement, in which He will execute vengeance amongst the angels.
16 And the first heaven shall depart and pass away, and a new heaven shall appear, and all the powers of the heavens shall give sevenfold light.

In particular, though, the millennium of Revelation 20 answers very well to the 7th of these weeks.  We can see here that it opens with the destruction of the temple, and is inhabited by an apostate generation, ones who have been deluded.

Jarrod

Hey again Jarrod,

When you mentioned your plague of gopher mounds, I thought of what I had read about rat terrier dogs being able to relentlessly hunt them down.  Then I got snagged by a fascinating online article about a rat-hunting terrier pack of dogs called the "Mongrol Hoard" whose owner makes a living killing rat infestations on farms.  His loyal pack is absolutely vicious in chasing down those pests, and have killed as many as 672 rats for one trip's record-breaking blood bath.  The owner and trainer is is great demand for his rare services, as you can imagine.  Some of his dogs he calls "crunchers", and some he calls "shakers", but it all equals a pile of dead rats for the customer.  Of course, the pits in the farmyard landscape might look like swiss cheese after the pack and the owner have done their job, but that's beside the point. 

And your "AI" experience...what can I say??!!  Maybe the reason why I love digging into ancient history so much is that the government is working overtime to erase as much awareness of history as possible. 

As for the casualty numbers of the war that Josephus gave of 1.1 million, and the captives taken at just under 100K, why do you think this does not "check out"? Are you suggesting that there should be more like 2 million700 thousand casualties in the war, to match the former AD 66 Passover census estimate of those present in Jerusalem?  If that is what you are thinking, I know very well why there is a disparity between those numbers.  It is because there were almost 1-1/4 million people who ordinarily would have been there for the Passover who heeded Christ's warning to FLEE from Judea and especially Jerusalem when they saw it surrounded by armies. 

You asked  what happened to those 144,000 resurrected ones, once the Passover feast was over.  Revelation 14 tells us what the 144,000 resurrected First-fruits did.  "They follow the Lamb, withersoever he goeth" during those 40 days when Christ remained on earth before His final ascension. 

Paul also spoke of the church as still having among them these "First-fruits" of the Spirit's redemption of the saints' bodies.  ("We also, which HAVE the First-fruits..." - Romans 8:23). 

Ephesians 4:12 also spoke of what the mission of the resurrected "captives" was to be after these individuals were given as "gifts" to men: "For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry; for the edifying of the body of Christ..."  These resurrected "captives" remained on earth to serve in the early church, bolstering the faith of the new believers, and providing mute evidence that if the believers were persecuted unto death, that they could expect an identical bodily resurrection, just like the resurrected 144,000 had received. 

Hymenaeus and Philetus either personally knew some of these resurrected 144,000 saints, or had heard about them.  This is why they taught the false, discouraging idea that a one-and-only  "resurrection is past already", and that there would never be another resurrection after that of the 144,000 in AD 33.

If you are looking for a contemporary source that mentions the saints which Christ resurrected, Eusebius includes a single quote from Quadratus' letter to Hadrian in defense of Christianity and the miracles which Christ and His disciples performed.  Quadratus testified that those which Christ had either healed or raised from the grave were not mere imaginary magical tricks, but were genuine miracles because these individuals had still remained among them for a long time after Christ had ascended.       

There was a promise which Christ had made - that His disciples would not have finished going over the cities of Israel before the Son of Man had come back.  Yet there was another promise that the gospel would be preached in all the world before the end came.  So, if the disciples themselves were not the ones capable of personally fulfilling this last promise of evangelistic coverage of the  known world, (as Paul testified had already taken place), then just who were the agents who stepped in and fulfilled this worldwide evangelistic coverage?  Answer: the ministry of the indestructible 144,000 resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints.  These had capabilities beyond what the Christian of the day would have possessed.  Never getting weary or sick, and with no danger of dying again.  No marriage ties and children to support (they were "virgins"), and no possibility of sinning, plus the same capabilities of the risen Christ of traveling at virtually the speed of thought, changing forms of appearance, etc., etc.  These deathless 144,000 saints would have been able to visit every corner of the known world with the gospel, in fulfillment of Christ's promise.

You have stated that from what you have read, God alone inhabits the highest heaven.  How then do you explain Christ saying that the angels of the young children beheld the face of His Father in heaven, so these little ones should not be despised?  How do you explain Christ proudly proclaiming "Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me" to God His Father? This is a face-to-face encounter of glorified saints with their Creator.  How do you explain Christ sitting at the right hand of God the Father?   How do you explain why we are to be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"?  These all describe God in intimate, face-to-face fellowship with both elect angels and glorified, resurrected saints.  And of necessity, Christ had to open up the way of access to God's presence in heaven's temple by being the "Firstborn" one to arrive there in a glorified, resurrected human body form in AD 33.   

It was at that point in AD 33 when the souls of the dead saints could then enter heaven directly at death instead of Hades which had been their prior destination of the saints' souls upon physical death.   This new blessing for those who were dying in the Lord after AD 33 was taught in Revelation 14:13. "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord FROM HENCEFORTH".  The immediate context concerned the sickle harvest of the 144,000 by the crowned Son of Man.  This was the transition point in time when souls of the righteous at death were permitted entrance to heaven, although no bodily-resurrected saint was allowed entrance to heaven's temple with its ark of the testament until the 7 plagues were completed.  "Absent from the body...present with the Lord" was Paul's description of this altered destination for the souls of the dead saints in those days.

And for the final millennium discussion you touched on, you yourself admitted that Revelation is not necessarily all chronological from start to finish - that it deals with history in many passages.  So if the book is not chronological from start to finish, why is it a problem if Revelation 12 describes the war in heaven, and Satan cast down to earth for a "short time" at the EXPIRATION of the millennium in AD 33?  It should not be a problem if Revelation 12:12 describes Satan's "short time" of release BEFORE Revelation 20:3&7 describes Satan's binding, a thousand years prior to that release for that "short time / "little season".  The date of Revelation's composition is a moot point in this discussion.  Likewise the idea of multiple authorship is a moot point when determining when the millennium ended.  These side issues neither add nor detract from proving the time of the millennium's expiration. 

Okay, I've worn you out by now with this comment, I'm sure.  I'll check back in later if the siding crew does not return tomorrow...
   

3 Resurrections & Jarrod:

    If I might add some of my thoughts on "Hades & The Resurrection." A few of my ideas may or may not concur with a few of yours, but the exchanging of views can be, and often is, a healthy part of our Christian growth.

    The story in Luke 16 is possibly an allegory. It seems that Jesus was teaching a well-needed lesson on riches and poverty, and the result of both if we do not place God in the forefront.

    However, I do feel He was also advancing a point on the severity of being lost forever, and the blessings of being saved forever, when He included the afterlife of both men. It is not my position that He was referring to a literal, fiery hell. The Greek for "hell" in the story is Hades—the unseen abode of departed spirits.

    I believe when a lost person sees what he has missed out on, it is comparable to being punished with fire and brimstone. I don't believe in a literal fire-and-brimstone hell, any more than I believe the "streets of heaven will be lined with pure gold." Nor do I believe God will allow the ungodly to be tortured endlessly. Yes, I truly believe the ungodly will be punished, but not with incessant torture. Eventually, they will be subjected to "everlasting destruction," as the scriptures so clearly teach.

    It seems to me that Jesus was also teaching that there's an intermediate state for the dead, containing two compartments. I believe the lost who are in Hades are quite conscious of their lost condition, and the saved are quite conscious of their saved condition. The rich man in Luke 16, although possibly an allegory, recognized his lost condition and begged for mercy.

    Too, I believe David is in Hades, as he did not ascend to heaven. "For David did not ascend to heaven"  [Acts 2:34]. If not in heaven, where is he?  In Hades, the unseen abode of departed spirits. His body was placed in an earthly tomb. His spirit, the real David, went to the paradise side of Hades—as I understand it. Even Jesus' spirit went to the paradise side of Hades when he died to await His resurrection. "Today you will be with me in paradise" [Luke 23:43].

    Some take the position that Hades was abolished when Jesus ascended and led the saved Hadean "captives in His train" [Eph. 4:8]. He may have taken a number of saints with Him into heaven itself, for whatever reason. But if all saints go directly to heaven when they die, why then would there be a resurrection? I have my doubts about His abolishing Hades. For, after all, David was not in heaven,even after Jesus ascended there, as noted in Acts 2:34.

    We must not forget that Jesus' spirit "was not abandoned to Hades," the unseen abode of departed spirits [Acts 2:31]. This one passage seems to establish that there is, indeed, an intermediate state for the dead.

    But what about the spirit "that returns to God who gave it"? Yes, even when departed spirits go to the paradise side of Hades to await the resurrection, they return to God, for returning to any part of His domain, whether heaven itself or to paradise in Hades, they're still returning to Him. At the resurrection, they will be re-united with their transformed bodies [Phil. 3:21].

Buff

FYI - Just in case anyone is interested:

I got an ad today from the Israel Bible Center.  It is offering a free seminar on the Book of Enoch. 



Link  is here:  https://email.eteachergroup.com/Prod/link-tracker?redirectUrl=aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZscC5pc3JhZWxiaWJsZWNlbnRlci5jb20lMkZscC1pYmMtd2ViaW5hci1ib29rLWVub2NoLW1pc3NpbmcyLWVuLmh0bWwlM0Z2aWElM0QzODUzMTZmJTI2dXRtX3NvdXJjZSUzRGVtYWlsJTI2dXRtX21lZGl1bSUzRGVtYWlsJTI2dXRtX2NhbXBhaWduJTNEZW1haWxfbGVhZF9zdGFuZGFsb25lX3dlYmluYXJfYm9vay1lbm9jaC1taXNzaW5nLTktZGF5c18yMDIzLTEtMTIlMjMzODUzMTZm&sig=3Wsb9yQmexDgWPMUdejisfsCP4SvjgUaWuU4MWwpsjfY&iat=1673532431&a=%7C%7C475208967%7C%7C&account=eteachergroup%2Eactivehosted%2Ecom&email=GBbqK9UWUw5Gkczpobsl%2BPlMy%2BOWWuyaZunZiCXh6gI%3D&s=c9af37d76103411e3f953b3a8e5621a8&i=64435A66718A48A208541

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jan 12, 2023 - 08:42:42
FYI - Just in case anyone is interested:

I got an ad today from the Israel Bible Center.  It is offering a free seminar on the Book of Enoch. 

FREE ONLINE CONFERENCE
Claim Your FREE Seat
The Book of Enoch is one of the most intriguing apocalyptic texts outside the canonical Scriptures.

It describes the fall of the Watchers, the Nephilim, Enoch's vision of Heaven, and his divine revelations.

    Is the Book of Enoch forbidden to read?
    Should it have been included in the "canon"?

    What can we learn from this Book about the humanity, divinity, and other supernatural worlds/dimensions?

Don't miss this free HOT TOPICS SEMINAR to learn about Enoch's mysteries!

    DATE: January 21 (Saturday), 2023
    TIME: 2 PM NY Time
    Available Online (ZOOM) From Any Device!

Link  is here:  https://email.eteachergroup.com/Prod/link-tracker?redirectUrl=aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZscC5pc3JhZWxiaWJsZWNlbnRlci5jb20lMkZscC1pYmMtd2ViaW5hci1ib29rLWVub2NoLW1pc3NpbmcyLWVuLmh0bWwlM0Z2aWElM0QzODUzMTZmJTI2dXRtX3NvdXJjZSUzRGVtYWlsJTI2dXRtX21lZGl1bSUzRGVtYWlsJTI2dXRtX2NhbXBhaWduJTNEZW1haWxfbGVhZF9zdGFuZGFsb25lX3dlYmluYXJfYm9vay1lbm9jaC1taXNzaW5nLTktZGF5c18yMDIzLTEtMTIlMjMzODUzMTZm&sig=3Wsb9yQmexDgWPMUdejisfsCP4SvjgUaWuU4MWwpsjfY&iat=1673532431&a=%7C%7C475208967%7C%7C&account=eteachergroup%2Eactivehosted%2Ecom&email=GBbqK9UWUw5Gkczpobsl%2BPlMy%2BOWWuyaZunZiCXh6gI%3D&s=c9af37d76103411e3f953b3a8e5621a8&i=64435A66718A48A208541

I am Dave,

Thank you.

Now I just need to get everyone to leave me alone during that time 

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Jan 12, 2023 - 08:42:42
FYI - Just in case anyone is interested:

I got an ad today from the Israel Bible Center.  It is offering a free seminar on the Book of Enoch. 

FREE ONLINE CONFERENCE
Claim Your FREE Seat
The Book of Enoch is one of the most intriguing apocalyptic texts outside the canonical Scriptures.

It describes the fall of the Watchers, the Nephilim, Enoch's vision of Heaven, and his divine revelations.

    Is the Book of Enoch forbidden to read?
    Should it have been included in the "canon"?

    What can we learn from this Book about the humanity, divinity, and other supernatural worlds/dimensions?

Don't miss this free HOT TOPICS SEMINAR to learn about Enoch's mysteries!

    DATE: January 21 (Saturday), 2023
    TIME: 2 PM NY Time
    Available Online (ZOOM) From Any Device!

Link  is here:  https://email.eteachergroup.com/Prod/link-tracker?redirectUrl=aHR0cHMlM0ElMkYlMkZscC5pc3JhZWxiaWJsZWNlbnRlci5jb20lMkZscC1pYmMtd2ViaW5hci1ib29rLWVub2NoLW1pc3NpbmcyLWVuLmh0bWwlM0Z2aWElM0QzODUzMTZmJTI2dXRtX3NvdXJjZSUzRGVtYWlsJTI2dXRtX21lZGl1bSUzRGVtYWlsJTI2dXRtX2NhbXBhaWduJTNEZW1haWxfbGVhZF9zdGFuZGFsb25lX3dlYmluYXJfYm9vay1lbm9jaC1taXNzaW5nLTktZGF5c18yMDIzLTEtMTIlMjMzODUzMTZm&sig=3Wsb9yQmexDgWPMUdejisfsCP4SvjgUaWuU4MWwpsjfY&iat=1673532431&a=%7C%7C475208967%7C%7C&account=eteachergroup%2Eactivehosted%2Ecom&email=GBbqK9UWUw5Gkczpobsl%2BPlMy%2BOWWuyaZunZiCXh6gI%3D&s=c9af37d76103411e3f953b3a8e5621a8&i=64435A66718A48A208541

To the top so no one misses it if they are interested