Christian Forums

     
      In the launching of satellites over the past few years, we have been able to glance out into our colossal universe and discover billions of galaxies! The vastness of God's creation is beyond human comprehension. We on Planet Earth are confined to a tiny speck in our universe, yet God loves us "tiny specks" so deeply that He set us apart from everything else and showered His grace upon us in the form of His Son.

    Heaven's testimony declares, "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array" [Gen. 2:1]. Vast array? That term alludes to the immensity—the magnitude—of our universe. We're talking about trillions and trillions of square miles, as measured by human standards. Still there is no end to our "tiny particle of existence." We are microscopic creatures when compared to God's titanic creation. And that is why mere humans will never "conquer" outer space. There are countless galaxies beyond ours. Only our Creator knows the exact number.

    God's majesty is unsearchable. Old Job affirmed, "And these [God's wonders] are but the outer fringe of his works" [Job 26:14). We stand in awe of the infinite power of God as He mobilizes and activates all of the stars and governs all of the galaxies that sprinkle the night's sky. I take it to be as great a wonder that He should even know that such insignificant creatures as we humans exist. Yet we live and enjoy His bounties in our tiny dimension or "microscopic world" because of His express decree.

    The heavens obey His every command. Without His oversight, there would be utter chaos among the galaxies and in the universe at large. We're so tiny we cannot see God's colossal "world," nor will we ever be able to travel to its outer fringes. When compared to the immensity of God's creation, it is truly a blessing that He even observes us. He is in the "small" as well as in the "large." He loves us tiny creatures so much that he sacrificed the best part of heaven when He sent His Son to save us from ourselves. The depth of His love and greatness is incomprehensible.

    Although we abide in our own "tiny corner of existence," He looks down upon us in tender mercy when we turn our faces in His direction. He's aware of our plight. He is capable of carrying a billion worlds like ours on the tip of His finger and "tossing them to the four winds." But no! He wants only to save us. Praise His Holy Name!

    "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" [John 3:16.]

+1 for a positive post.

Thank you, johntwayne.

Buff

Buff, I mostly agree with what you have said there.  I am not sure where you got your particular translation/interpretation for Psalms 19:1, but every translation that I looked into translated it glory not existence that is declared by the heavens.  It seems to me that glory expresses something much greater that existence. 

And the main problem with that verse is that far too many professing believers in God simply are not really listening to God's handiwork that is actually being shown by the firmament. But perhaps that is just me.

Good morning Buff,

As 4WD said, I also have only found PS 19:1 to say it is glory, not existence.

I even checked into the Septuagint and it says glory also. ( Found in 18:1 1 [For the end, a Psalm of David.] 2 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims the work of his hands.)

Please advise where you have existence.

4WD & Rella:

    Thanks for reading me. Yes, I agree, you need an explanation. As the universe does declare or proclaim the existence of God, a fact we all concede, I felt "existence" was a good and acceptable paraphrase. But we will certainly settle for "glory" as the most accurate translation.

    It is interesting that Thayer's translation adds, "...splendor or copiousness: - glorious (-ly), glory, honour," another example of paraphrasing. Greek and Hebrew scholar Strong does the same. 

Buff

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• Gen 1:1a . . In the beginning God

The first chapter of the first book of the Bible doesn't waste words with an argument to convince skeptic minds that a supreme being exists; rather, it starts off by candidly asserting that the existence of the cosmos is due to intelligent design. I mean: if the complexity of the cosmos-- its extent, its objects, and all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --isn't enough to convince the critics; then they're pretty much beyond reach.

However, in God's estimation the wonders and complexity of the cosmos-- all its forms of life, matter, and energy --is a strong enough argument to convince people that everything came about by intelligent design and the handiwork of a higher power, i.e. a supreme being.

Plus, their own sense of justice-- their conscience --is enough to warn people that there's coming an ultimate reckoning to make things right, i.e. to reward people for their good, and to punish them for their bad.

But I remember what I told you;
That in time you're gonna pay.
"Funny How Time Slips Away"
Willie Nelson, Billy Walker, 1961
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NyawehNyoh:

Very true, my brother - and well presented.

Buff

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Back In April of 2018, I watched a movie on NetFlix called "Come Sunday" based upon the life of a Christian minister named Carlton D'metrius Pearson, DD. He underwent a crisis of faith due to pondering the fate of the millions of people in the world perishing in genocides, civil wars, and whatnot who never heard, nor ever would hear, Jesus' gospel.

It seemed thoroughly unreasonable to Pearson that a merciful, loving God would condemn so many uninformed people to an eternal destiny of suffering just because they didn't believe in a Jesus about whom many of them likely knew nothing about.

Pearson's solution to the problem was to simply rule out Hell altogether by insisting that classical Christianity's interpretation of the New Testament is incorrect; which is very surprising seeing as how he attended Oral Roberts University and was mentored by Oral Roberts himself. So I'm pretty sure Mr. Pearson was aware of the everlasting gospel; but apparently he didn't know how to apply it. That's a remarkable shortcoming considering where he went to school, and who it was that mentored him.

Anyway, the text of the everlasting gospel is located at Rev 14:6-7 where it's stated:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, announcing with a loud voice: Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The everlasting gospel says nothing of Jesus' crucifixion nor of his resurrection. It's mostly a bounce from the very first chapter of Genesis and very elementary; pretty much all it says is:

1» There's a supreme being.

2» He deserves respect.

3» There's a frightful reckoning looming on the horizon, and

4» The cosmos— all of its forms of life, matter, and energy —is the product of intelligent design.

Giving glory to God basically requires giving Him credit where credit is due; and worship basically requires admiration, reverence, applause, and dignity.

The everlasting gospel is timeless and its points are as valid in our day as they will be in the days ahead.

FAQ: How is God due glory?

REPLY: Glory can be defined as high renown and/or honor won by notable achievements, viz: accolades. Well; speaking for myself; I have to say that the successful invention, design, and construction of the cosmos, with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy, is quite an achievement and speaks of the capability of a genius that deserves applause and admiration.
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NyawehNyoh:

    Amen again! You seem to have heard of, or known, many of the people I have heard of and known. Wow. Did we evolve out of the same branch of schismatic religion?

Buff

The fundamental problem with the whole concept of the cosmos— all of its forms of life, matter, and energy —being the product of intelligent design, is that the design must conform to the design concept of the one stating that all is the product of intelligent design.  Thus, for example, the idea of intelligent design always precludes a design concept that God is capable of a design which incorporates evolution.

4WD:

    Don't get me started on modern-day evolution, because I have a whole volume of counter info and questions for you. Also, far too much time is involved.

Buff

Counter information from whom?

Me and other writers.

Buff

Without a doubt, for every "volume of counter info" that you can provide, I can give you ten volumes of info countering yours.  And for every question that you might have, there are probably dozens for you and those other writers.

For the record, as I have stated many times, I am an "old earth" creationist. I have no doubts whatsoever that the universe is probably about 14 billion years old; and I have no problem believing that God is fully capable of bringing about the universe in a manner currently presented by the scientific community and He probably did. I see such creation by God as being much more majestic and marvelous and glorious than any description that you likely present.

4WD:

    You can continue believing the scientific community and their 14 billion number while I will continue believing precisely what God and His Holy Spirit have said—six days and then He "rested" [ceased creating] on the seventh.

Buff

It is not so much what the scientific community says, it is what the data gathered from looking into "the heavens" say. The 14 billion number is what the heavens declare. I have shown you how both numbers are correct.  The six 24-hour days counted by looking forward from the very beginning and the 14 billion years looking back from today can be seen to both enumerate the creation time correctly.

God says, "He stretches out the heavens."  That correlates nicely with the expansion of the universe discovered by Hubble and others in the 1920s. That expansion is a measurable quantity. It is data provided by God Himself.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Mar 29, 2023 - 05:45:42


For the record, as I have stated many times, I am an "old earth" creationist. I have no doubts whatsoever that the universe is probably about 14 billion years old; and I have no problem believing that God is fully capable of bringing about the universe in a manner currently presented by the scientific community and He probably did. I see such creation by God as being much more majestic and marvelous and glorious than any description that you likely present.

4WD, please consider the following.

You have no problem with 14 BILLION year old earth.

Lets leave that alone for a moment.

If you have stated your beliefs on the creation of life living on this 14 billion year old ball of dirt I do not remember reading it or what you said.

That being said... You either do or do not believe the 66 books of the Holy Bible. IF you push everything into the parable and alleory categories then you do not.

We have been given a genealogy trail from Jesus and going back.... and Noah and going back ... and eventually we arrive at ADAM.

These people are generally given with the number of years lived and we can be fairly certain of the length of time from Jesus back to Adam was from Adam unto Christ, are 3974 years (see https://knowledgeburrow.com/how-many-years-was-it-from-adam-to-jesus/)  OR 76 generations.

If you start with Jesus and go backwards to Adam that is a drop in the bucket in 14 billion years.

What in the world do you think that God made this ball of dirt for?

And for the record I believe that Adam was not the first man that God created.... but not getting into that now, as well as the beginning was not day 1.

Quote from: Reformer on Wed Mar 29, 2023 - 13:05:58
4WD:

    You can continue believing the scientific community and their 14 billion number while I will continue believing precisely what God and His Holy Spirit have said—six days and then He "rested" [ceased creating] on the seventh.

Buff

Buff,

6 creation periods. Fine. 144 consecutive hours doubtful.

I just found this interesting idea. YOU will say poppycock but it should give you pause for thought.

AND FOR YOUR INFO I AM NOT A 14 BILLION YEAR BELIEVER.... BUT I DO BELIEVE BEFORE 6k  OR 7k YEARS AGO.

https://authentictheology.com/2016/09/09/in-a-beginning-god-created/ 

Quote
"In the beginning, God created ...."  This is the opening phrase of most English-language Bibles.  But our first Old Testament Interpretation I class revealed that a better translation is probably "In a beginning, God created ...."   And that an even better translation is probably "In beginning ...."

The difference between "the" beginning and "a" beginning could be significant–if the Genesis 1:1 beginning is "a" beginning (instead of "the" beginning), is that a suggestion of some other beginning beforehand?  Or afterwards?  Of another universe beforehand?

Does it suggest that the results of some other beginning were already present when the beginning of Genesis 1:1 started?

The current Jewish Study Bible (Tanakh translation), containing an English translation of what some refer to as the Hebrew Bible, expresses the phrase closer to "a" beginning:  "When God began to create ...."

The first class revealed that "In the beginning, ..." is a plausible translation, but these other translations of the Hebrew are probably more accurate in light of what scholars now know about the text, the ancient Near East, and ancient Hebrew.

None of this makes much of a difference to the main point of Genesis 1, which is that God created.

The "a" and "the" issue is interesting, though, when sorting through questions of how current scientific views compare to Genesis.  Are they compatible?  I think so, and thought so before hearing about this translation issue, but I am going to enjoy thinking more about it.

And it is interesting when evaluating assertions that there is one–and only one!–way to read Genesis, usually that the Earth, moon, sun, animals, plants, humans, etc., must have all been created in six, back-to-back, 24-hour days about 6,000-10,000 years ago. Many reasonable Christians do not read Genesis that way.  I am one of them and have been for a long time.

I am also encouraged by the idea that the Bible might open with the possibility of more than one beginning.

Christ offers everyone the opportunity for more than one beginning, to have a new start, and to begin a new spiritual life with him, as the Bible later describes in John 3:1-18 (NLT).

I like the theme.

Quote from: Rella on Wed Mar 29, 2023 - 16:47:10If you have stated your beliefs on the creation of life living on this 14 billion year old ball of dirt I do not remember reading it or what you said.

Rella,

I have, on several occasions, stated that there are three occurrences in the Genesis account of creation where it states that God created.  The first is the heaven and earth.  More than a few Hebrew scholars have expressed the fact that the phrase "heaven and earth" is a merism, a metaphor which describes a whole thing by describing some or all of its parts. Examples are "the good and bad", "the high and low". the "long and short". 

In Genesis 1:1 I think the merism, "heaven and earth", is a metaphor describing all the stuff from which everything was made.

The second mention of God's creating is life, specifically 1:21, where life begins with life in the sea.  The third is man, though not the body of man, that is made of the dust of the earth(3:19), not created.  The third creation is that which is stated to be in God's own image (1:26-27) which can only be man's spirit since God is Spirit.

In summary, the three instances of creation specified in the Genesis creation account are (1) the stuff from which everything in the universe is made, (2) life which originated in the sea and (3) the spirits of human beings.

Actually concerning the spirits of human beings, it only describes that for Adam and Eve.  We have to look elsewhere in Scripture for the rest of humanity (e.g., Zech 12:1).

4WD:

Reply #16: "The 14 billion number is what the heavens declare."

Reply #18: "AND FOR YOUR INFO I AM NOT A 14 BILLION YEAR BELIEVER..."

Have I missed something? Hmmmm.

Buff

Aside from the fact that Rella apparently doesn't agree with me?  Probably a lot.

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Mar 30, 2023 - 06:14:22
Aside from the fact that Rella apparently doesn't agree with me?  Probably a lot.