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Certain women went out to the cemetery before the sun was up and Jesus was already gone. (Matt 28:1-6 & John 20:1) So maybe we should be having twilight services instead of sunrise?
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Twilight on which day of Jewish reckoning?

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Quote from: Jaime on Sun Apr 09, 2023 - 11:38:32Twilight on which day of Jewish reckoning?

The women went out to the cemetery early on the morning of the Jews' first day of the week which, on modern calendars, is Sunday.

* Incidentally; according to Luke 24:19-23 that day was the third since Jesus' ordeal.
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 So is the concept of sunrise service on Easter Sunday not correct?

Just did regular service.  No need to religion-ify everything.

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Quote from: Jaime on Sun Apr 09, 2023 - 13:25:17So is the concept of sunrise service on Easter Sunday not correct?

I think both time elements are correct in their proper perspective. The important point is that Jesus was gone when the ladies arrived.

FAQ: If Jesus' crucified dead body was restored to life prior to sunrise, then how can Sunday be counted as the third day?

REPLY: In a nutshell; civil days began at 06:00 am and ended at 06:00 pm regardless of the season.

For example: the Sun rose in Jerusalem April 9, 2023 at 06:18 am, which in the past would've been 18 minutes after the beginning of their civil day. So; if Jesus did his thing, and the women theirs, sometime in those 18 minutes before sunrise, then he and they were technically within the limits of a new day rather than the tail end of a previous night.
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But in the first century for instance Jews reckoned a day from sundown to sundown. The first day of the week began at sundown on Saturday and ended on sundown on Sunday. The Sabbath began Friday night and ended Sundown Saturday night.

Quote from: NyawehNyoh on Sun Apr 09, 2023 - 15:54:34
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I think both time elements are correct in their proper perspective. The important point is that Jesus was gone when the ladies arrived.

FAQ: If Jesus' crucified dead body was restored to life prior to sunrise, then how can Sunday be counted as the third day?

REPLY: In a nutshell; civil days began at 06:00 am and ended at 06:00 pm regardless of the season.

For example: the Sun rose in Jerusalem April 9, 2023 at 06:18 am, which in the past would've been 18 minutes after the beginning of their civil day. So; if Jesus did his thing, and the women theirs, sometime in those 18 minutes before sunrise, then he and they were technically within the limits of a new day rather than the tail end of a previous night.
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NyawehNyoh

Please clarify for those of us who may be slower to comprehend then you do.

You said: "Certain women went out to the cemetery before the sun was up and Jesus was already gone. (Matt 28:1-6 & John 20:1) So maybe we should be having twilight services instead of sunrise?"

Why?

When Mary arrived at the tomb it was empty. When Jesus was seen after this observation He was not in the tomb .

72 hours had passed 

Do you not find it appropriate to hold a sunrise service at the biblical time that it was first revealed the tomb was empty?

Can you tell us why you think that a service at twilight... (6PM on Saturday evening) would be better?

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Quote from: Jaime on Sun Apr 09, 2023 - 20:32:05But in the first century for instance Jews reckoned a day from sundown to sundown.

Their holy days of obligation were 24-hour calendar events that began and ended at sundown. But normal days were only 12 hours apiece (John 11:9-10) and began at 06:00 am and ended at 06:00 pm, at which point in time the hours of night began-- regardless of the season --so that certain times of the year nights began while he sun was still up, and days sometimes began while the sun was still down.

For example: according to Matt 28:1 and Mark 16:1-2, the first day of the Jews' week began at dawn, not at sunset, and that's because the first day of their week is a civil day rather than a holy day of obligation like Feast of Trumpets, the first and last day of Feast of Unleavened Bread, Yom Kippur, and the weekly routine seventh-day sabbath.
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Quote from: Rella on Mon Apr 10, 2023 - 07:11:18Can you tell us why you think that a service at twilight... (6PM on Saturday evening) would be better?

Twilight time isn't restricted to evening. The twilight to which I referred was Sunday morning just prior to sunrise. And I'm not saying twilight would be better; only suggesting it as a possible alternative; and that's because Jesus' crucified dead body was restored to life before the women got there rather than afterwards.
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Nya, that must have been confusing for the locals when 2 different time reckonings was in play.  Today the Jews have a civil calendar have a vastly different new year as their Spiritual calendar. 

https://lifegroupnews.net/LessonOutline/RevStudy/JewishCivil&ReligiousCalendar.pdf

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POSIT: Easter sunrise services are pagan: they're not in the Bible.

REPLY: Sunrise services are neither prohibited nor required in the New Testament; thus they fall into the category of debatable practices which, for Christ's followers, are regulated by the principles discussed in the 14th chapter of Romans.

In other words: sunrise services are pagan for some folks, yes, but they aren't necessarily pagan for everyone because not everyone is out there that morning for a pagan purpose.

For example: human sacrifice is normally a pagan practice; but relative to God's purposes, it's not.

For another example: Jesus and his men drank the fruit of the vine at his last supper (Matt 26:29 & Mark 14:25) Well; a detailed examination of the 12th chapter of Exodus readily reveals that there is nothing in black and white designating a specific beverage for the Passover dinner, i.e. none is prohibited and none is required, viz: it's a gray issue.

Strict legalists would insist that Jesus and his men were in violation of the commandments that prohibits adding to and/or subtracting from the Law (Deut 4:2 & Deut 5:29-30) but they would be wrong.
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Quote from: NyawehNyoh on Thu Apr 13, 2023 - 13:50:36
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POSIT: Easter sunrise services are pagan: they're not in the Bible.

REPLY: Sunrise services are neither prohibited nor required in the New Testament; thus they fall into the category of debatable practices which, for Christ's followers, are regulated by the principles discussed in the 14th chapter of Romans.

In other words: sunrise services are pagan for some folks, yes, but they aren't necessarily pagan for everyone because not everyone is out there that morning for a pagan purpose.

For example: human sacrifice is normally a pagan practice; but relative to God's purposes, it's not.

For another example: Jesus and his men drank the fruit of the vine at his last supper (Matt 26:29 & Mark 14:25) Well; a detailed examination of the 12th chapter of Exodus readily reveals that there is nothing in black and white designating a specific beverage for the Passover dinner, i.e. none is prohibited and none is required, viz: it's a gray issue.

Strict legalists would insist that Jesus and his men were in violation of the commandments that prohibits adding to and/or subtracting from the Law (Deut 4:2 & Deut 5:29-30) but they would be wrong.
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Mathew 7:1.   

A word to the wise should be sufficient

Rella, how do we square that verse with 1Corinthians 5:12?

Matthew 7:1 is often misapplied.   like it was here.

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Apr 13, 2023 - 16:44:54
Rella, how do we square that verse with 1Corinthians 5:12?

Good morning Jaime,

Hmmmm... I actually do not square them at all with each other.

Matthew seems to be telling us to not judge others until you are prepared to be judged by the same standard. And while I am one of the ones who admittedly am guilty of using this verse by itself because  every so often a statement (s) will come along that seems as if that is what is being done.... Unwarranted judgement... I am perfectly aware Mathew 7:1 does not  cover personal opinion... which of course is what we have in the above posts... and for that,  NyawehNyoh, I apologize....

I know it does not forbid personal opinion.

But it does cover  critical opinions of one believer on another.

And is what had me post as I did because he  has spent more then a few  comments on the assumption that an Easter Sunrise Service was Pagan... and therefore must be avoided . The suggestion being that if one attends a Sunrise service then one
must be a Pagan.....

I see that as  a critical condemnation  of one believer on others.... because we cannot l know, definitively what is in the hearts of professing Christians.
If Churches and People are to avoid Easter Sunrise Services, because it is not in the bible.... perhaps they should avoid Easter services altogether. The crucifixion's and resurrection were not commanded to be "celebrated" or even acknowledged in any way......

And just as a side comment... NyawehNyoh, are you married? Did you have a church wedding? How about all you married men out there? Church weddings? Jesus attended a wedding celebration.... not biblical mention of a walk down the aisle in the 66 books. So should wedding be done without God's presence?

I digress.

NOW... round about way to get to your question of " Rella, how do we square that verse with 1Corinthians 5:12?"

I have never viewed Mathew 7: 1 as church specific.... I DO view 1Corinthians 5:12 as such. The Corinthian church... given by Paul as instruction to help correct their wandering ways and back to Jesus.

While they are similar Mathew 7 could be applied here, but this 1 Cor. 5 cannot be applied to Mathew.

I am open to further explanations if you wish.

I look at 1Corinthians 5:12 as as a commandment towards the entire "church" at large. Not just within a given congregation. In other words I look at it as OK-ing judgement of fellow Christians and specifically not the non-Christians or those outside of Christianity. In other words the church or Christianity overall should regulate itself and not judge those on the outside.

Context is always important.

Matthew 7 is part of the Sermon on The Mount.

Who was this addressed to? 

Why was 7:2 not included as well.  I am leery of any use of Matthew 7:1 without using 7:2-5?

And further, is not Matthew 7:15-19 judging someone by looking at their fruits.

A little history regarding easter, and Sunday worship at sunrise.

QuoteNorth African half-heathen Christians who led out in Christian worship on Sunday, were also the first to call Jesus Christ the true Sun-god, and to direct their prayers toward the east--the rising sun--to rise early in the morning that they pray facing the sun as it arose. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD.) frequently called Christ the true Sun, and he urged the pagans to accept Him as such. Origen (c. 185-254) said, "Christ is the Sun of Justice; if the moon is united, which is the Church, it will be filled with His light." Cyprian (d. 258), Bishop of Carthage told believers "to pray at sunrise to commemorate the resurrection . . . and to pray at the setting of the sun . . . for the advent of Christ." "They took a much easier view of certain pagan customs, conventions and images and saw no objection, after ridding them of their pagan content, to adapting them to Christian thought." (J. Danielou, Bible and Liturgy, p. 299.)

"Cults of the sun, as we know from many sources, had attained great vogue during the second, third, and fourth centuries. Sun-worshipers indeed formed one of the big groups in that religious world in which Christianity was fighting for a place. Many of them became converts to Christianity . . . Worshipers in St. Peter's turned away from the altar and faced the door so that they could adore the rising sun." (Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, p. 192.)[Dr. Laing(1869-1945) was a Canadian-born university professor and later dean at the University of Chicago].

It was the Roman Imperial plan on several occasions, to unite all religions of the Empire into one religion--sun-worship: "The Jewish, the Samaritan, even the Christian, were to be fused and recast into one great system, of which the sun was to be the central object of adoration."--Henry Hart Milman, The History of Christianity, bk. 2, chap. 8 (Vol. II, p. 175). [Dr. Milman (1791-1868) was an important historian of England and dean of St. Paul's Cathedral in London].

"Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray toward the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies, likewise move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day, as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and banqueting."  (Tertullian "Ad Nationes," book 1, chap. 13.)

This accommodation was easily made, and all this practice was easily justified, by the perverse-minded teachers, in the perversion of such scriptures as, "The Lord God is a sun and shield," and, "Unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings."  As this custom spread, and through it such disciples were multiplied, the ambition of the bishop of Rome grew apace. It was in honor of the day of the sun that there was manifested the first attempt of the bishop of Rome to compel the obedience of all other bishops, and the fact that this attempt was made in such a cause, at the very time when these pretended Christians were openly accused by the heathen of worshiping the sun, is strongly suggestive.

From Rome there came now another addition to the sun-worshiping apostasy. The first Christians being mostly Jews, continued to celebrate the Passover in remembrance of the death of Christ, the true Passover; and this was continued among those who from among the Gentiles had turned to Christ. Accordingly, the celebration was always on the Passover day, — the fourteenth of the first month. Rome, however, and from her all the West, adopted the day of the sun as the day of this celebration. According to the Eastern custom, the celebration, being on the fourteenth day of the month, would of course fall on different days of the week as the years revolved. The rule of Rome was that the celebration must always be on a Sunday — the Sunday nearest to the fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year. And if the fourteenth day of that month should itself be a Sunday, then the celebration was not to be held on that day, but upon the next Sunday. One reason of this was not only to be as like the heathen as possible, but to be as un like the Jews as possible; this, in order not only to facilitate the "conversion" of the heathen by conforming to their customs, but also by pandering to their spirit of contempt and hatred of the Jews. It was upon this point that the bishop of Rome made his first open attempt at Absolutism..................

"Accordingly, after having taken the advice of some foreign bishops, he wrote an imperious letter to the Asiatic prelates commanding them to imitate the example of the Western Christians with respect to the time of celebrating the festival of Easter. The Asiatics answered this lordly requisition by the pen of Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, who declared in their name, with great spirit and resolution, that they would by no means depart in this manner from the custom handed down to them by their ancestors. Upon this the thunder of excommunication began to roar. Victor, exasperated by this resolute answer of the Asiatic bishops, broke communion with them, pronounced them unworthy of the name of his brethren, and excluded them from all fellowship with the church of Rome." (Mosheim "Ecclesiastical History," century 2, part 2, chap. 4, par. 11. Maclaine's Translation...)

Eze 8:1  And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord GOD fell there upon me. 2  Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber. 3  And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. 4  And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain. 5  Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry. 6  He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations. 7  And he brought me to the door of the court; and when I looked, behold a hole in the wall. 8  Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door. 9  And he said unto me, Go in, and behold the wicked abominations that they do here. 10  So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, pourtrayed upon the wall round about. 11  And there stood before them seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel, and in the midst of them stood Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan, with every man his censer in his hand; and a thick cloud of incense went up. 12  Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, The LORD seeth us not; the LORD hath forsaken the earth. 13  He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do. 14  Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15  Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.