Christian Forums

Quote from: Alan on Sun Dec 25, 2022 - 10:02:39 Do you profess to actually know it above and beyond everyone else?

Well, as a matter of fact he does.  Surely, Alan, you have noticed that.

Quote from: Alan on Sun Dec 25, 2022 - 10:02:39

What is the truth of God's word? Do you profess to actually know it above and beyond everyone else?


Chill dude, you're just another one of us seeking the truth in the best way possible.

I have no intention of chilling, while the enemy of all souls has person after person, institution after institution, corporation after corporation, and government after government, capitulating to his evil designs which lead all of humanity directly to destruction. You chill, if you so choose. Silence me if you have to, by pushing that button. I will not chill. I will simply move on. As has already been pointed out, these boards are not moving forward. No new comers, points to its end, sooner or later. 

Yes I do think I know it better than most others, but not everyone else. Many millions believe as I do, but their voices are and will continue to be ever increasingly censored. While I continue to seek truth, I am also very sure of certain truths I have already come to believe. The continued evidences of which, I fill this thread and many others with. If I wasn't sure of these things, I would not bother sharing and or defending them. Seeing them directly fulfilled in the recorded events of the past, the many recorded events of recent years, and even presently before my very eyes. My confidence in these truths only increases.

Apart from this, why would anyone who did not think they were right, or were unsure of such, argue anything? These boards are filled with nothing but debates between people whom I would hope at the very least, have strong convictions that they are right. If not, what are such, but liars and or those right on the verge of becoming liars. Preaching and defending that which they themselves are not even sure of. This is not the condition of authentic biblical belief and or testimony.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Authentic biblical "Christianity", moves forward by the power of the Holy Spirit of God. Not the powers that be of this world, and compromises with the same. Therefore can we, and do all authentic bible believers see, know, and identify the apostate "Christian" professing institutions which are in bed with and compromising with all these powers of this world. Attempting and succeeding in forcing their views upon all, and censoring all opposition to them, by those who see through their lies and manipulation. Which is what all this mass migration is about. Destroying cultures, systems of belief, practice, and government which prevent or will not allow for the force, manipulation, and tyranny the enemy of all truth wishes to establish over and above all of humanity. As God's prophetic word has predicted. So be it, as God's word has predicted. Nevertheless, the truth shall not be silenced, until God Himself has determined it is time to allow this struggle between truth and error to end. When He will utter the following words.

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Dec 25, 2022 - 04:41:06
What lying wonders? Yours?

Here we are, please do expose my lies, as all bible believers should endeavor.

It was a question.  You were the accuser, not me.  But I must admit it was a bit of a rhetorical question; all who do not interpret scripture as you are the likely intended.

Posted by: Amo

Quote« on: Sat Dec 24, 2022 - 12:52:29 »Insert Quote

Quote

Quote 4WD on Sat Dec 24, 2022 - 11:52:44
And, of course, you believe all of that is now rather than, say, two thousand, three thousand, four thousand or more years from now.[/size]

Not when I see it taking place now, by an ever increasing number of peoples the world over. Who are also racing us toward global unification and government under the immoral guidance of the man of sin, and the spiritually whorish institution over which he presides. Which whorish woman sat upon the first beast of the book of Revelation chapter 13, and is presently rising atop the second beast which helps heal the first beasts deadly wound. But what are such prophetic utterances to those who will choose lying wonders over the truths of God's word?

Quote

Quote

Quote from: Amo on Mon Dec 26, 2022 - 10:20:23
Here we are, please do expose my lies, as all bible believers should endeavor.

Posted by: 4WD
« on: Mon Dec 26, 2022 - 16:29:14 »Insert Quote
It was a question.  You were the accuser, not me.  But I must admit it was a bit of a rhetorical question; all who do not interpret scripture as you are the likely intended.

Not all. Many agree but are afraid to voice an opinion.

Of course... not all would listen to one who follows a woman. Being a woman I see that well.
But again, not all would agree with the one you hold in such high esteem Jack Cottrell.

Can you prove that everything that came out of Ellen Whites mouth was false? Everything?...

All are subject to the teachings of those who went before us until we see their fallacies.

But then when we try to tell or explain what is right in front of a readers eyeballs, our past beliefs jump up to bite us.

NO, I am not suggesting Amo is no longer following Ellen's words, but I have read enough from him to know he puts a lot of study into what he writes.

At one time I would have been considered a Calvinist. I am sure many in my church still are. But no longer for I see the error in blind trusting what someone says.....

But repeating, I am just a woman who is not supposed... according to many on here.... utter a sound in church.

Buff is ripped apart at every chance and all because he hears a different drummer.

I should start to follow and quote Joseph Smith. It would give you something new to challenge.

All I know is when it comes to what the Jesuit Papacy is up to, Amo is 100% correct. My adopted Grandfather, before emigrating from Italy as a young man was in the Nobel Guard -aligned with the Swiss Guard- As was the The Palatine Guard was an all-volunteer rifle regiment formed in 1850 by citizens of the Papal States.  ... it was not overly long as he fled from that and the church... period.

This was about 1910ish. 

He used to talk about that a lot... and because of that he had to leave Italy.

They had a lot of down time and the guard would be palying cards most evenings and talking about what they heard and knew

OK.. I digress.

There is, and has been an extensive agenda coming out of Rome and Vatican City. You do not have to believe it, but ignoring it will not make it not so.

I have zero doubt we are marching so fast toward the end of the end.

You do not have to believe it... just remember even your Lord and Savior said

Luke 21:34 KJV
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

And I caution all... (Yep, I know. I am a mere woman with no authority and should not do it )

Jude 1:4 KJV
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Carry on.

 Rella, I wasn't able to follow your post.  It seemed like you were addressing me in some of your post but clearly not all of your post.  Maybe you could go back and reorganized it.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Dec 26, 2022 - 16:29:14
It was a question.  You were the accuser, not me.  But I must admit it was a bit of a rhetorical question; all who do not interpret scripture as you are the likely intended.

Yes, simple one sentence accusations are certainly a lot easier than actually addressing and specifically pointing out the errors that would prove such accusations. This thread is about the increasing number of Catholics in this country being due to mass migrations of them into it, rather than conversions, and the obvious intentions and support of the Vatican concerning the same. Its pages are filled with articles, videos, and such proving just that. I rightly connect such manipulative and detrimental behavior to the antagonists of God's people described in biblical prophecy. As its effects are detrimental to bible based belief and effected government for and by the people. Here we are, refute this, if you can.

As far as your silly argument or accusation concerning the fact that I think I am right, well duhhh. Why would I debate or try to convince anyone of that which I believed was wrong or untrue? Of course those who do not believe, or incorrectly believe the scriptures as I do are the intended. Who else would be? I'm sorry if you do not believe the truth as you understand it, is worth seriously trying to convince others of. I just want to see people set free.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Quote from: Rella on Wed Dec 28, 2022 - 11:38:28

Posted by: Amo
Not when I see it taking place now, by an ever increasing number of peoples the world over. Who are also racing us toward global unification and government under the immoral guidance of the man of sin, and the spiritually whorish institution over which he presides. Which whorish woman sat upon the first beast of the book of Revelation chapter 13, and is presently rising atop the second beast which helps heal the first beasts deadly wound. But what are such prophetic utterances to those who will choose lying wonders over the truths of God's word?

Posted by: 4WD
« on: Mon Dec 26, 2022 - 16:29:14 »Insert Quote
It was a question.  You were the accuser, not me.  But I must admit it was a bit of a rhetorical question; all who do not interpret scripture as you are the likely intended.

Not all. Many agree but are afraid to voice an opinion.

Of course... not all would listen to one who follows a woman. Being a woman I see that well.
But again, not all would agree with the one you hold in such high esteem Jack Cottrell.

Can you prove that everything that came out of Ellen Whites mouth was false? Everything?...

All are subject to the teachings of those who went before us until we see their fallacies.

But then when we try to tell or explain what is right in front of a readers eyeballs, our past beliefs jump up to bite us.

NO, I am not suggesting Amo is no longer following Ellen's words, but I have read enough from him to know he puts a lot of study into what he writes.

At one time I would have been considered a Calvinist. I am sure many in my church still are. But no longer for I see the error in blind trusting what someone says.....

But repeating, I am just a woman who is not supposed... according to many on here.... utter a sound in church.

Buff is ripped apart at every chance and all because he hears a different drummer.

I should start to follow and quote Joseph Smith. It would give you something new to challenge.

All I know is when it comes to what the Jesuit Papacy is up to, Amo is 100% correct. My adopted Grandfather, before emigrating from Italy as a young man was in the Nobel Guard -aligned with the Swiss Guard- As was the The Palatine Guard was an all-volunteer rifle regiment formed in 1850 by citizens of the Papal States.  ... it was not overly long as he fled from that and the church... period.

This was about 1910ish. 

He used to talk about that a lot... and because of that he had to leave Italy.

They had a lot of down time and the guard would be palying cards most evenings and talking about what they heard and knew

OK.. I digress.

There is, and has been an extensive agenda coming out of Rome and Vatican City. You do not have to believe it, but ignoring it will not make it not so.

I have zero doubt we are marching so fast toward the end of the end.

You do not have to believe it... just remember even your Lord and Savior said

Luke 21:34 KJV
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

And I caution all... (Yep, I know. I am a mere woman with no authority and should not do it )

Jude 1:4 KJV
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Carry on.

Your point Rella, was easy enough to determine, but for those who would probably not care to acknowledge it. The proof of the things you spoke of, and that which I am recording on this thread is there for all to see. Most simply will not even care about it, or acknowledge it. Therefore will God Himself eventually send strong delusion upon humanity, that they should believe a lie. Not simply because of what we are discussing here and now, but because this is increasingly becoming the norm concerning all even basic truths. As all are witnessing in the world today. Being told that things we see and know right in front of us, are not what we know they are. More and more actually coming to believe such nonsense. Such are and will continue to be given over to delusion. So be it, as God's word has determined.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Dec 28, 2022 - 12:44:37
Rella, I wasn't able to follow your post.  It seemed like you were addressing me in some of your post but clearly not all of your post.  Maybe you could go back and reorganized it.

QuoteOn Sat Dec 24, 2022 Amo quoted you.

4WD on Sat Dec 24, 2022 - 11:52:44
And, of course, you believe all of that is now rather than, say, two thousand, three thousand, four thousand or more years from now.

QuoteHe replied to you

Not when I see it taking place now, by an ever increasing number of peoples the world over. Who are also racing us toward global unification and government under the immoral guidance of the man of sin, and the spiritually whorish institution over which he presides. Which whorish woman sat upon the first beast of the book of Revelation chapter 13, and is presently rising atop the second beast which helps heal the first beasts deadly wound. But what are such prophetic utterances to those who will choose lying wonders over the truths of God's word?

QuoteYou then quoted Amo

Quote from: Amo on Mon Dec 26, 2022 - 10:20:23
Here we are, please do expose my lies, as all bible believers should endeavor.

QuoteTo which you replied

Posted by: 4WD
« on: Mon Dec 26, 2022 - 16:29:14 »Insert Quote
It was a question.  You were the accuser, not me.  But I must admit it was a bit of a rhetorical question; all who do not interpret scripture as you are the likely intended.

And the rest of my reply is because of you quoting and replying to AMO... then AMO quoting and replying to you. AND YOU SAYING
"But I must admit it was a bit of a rhetorical question; all who do not interpret scripture as you are the likely intended."

It gets tiresome when people who follow a different drummer... that, BTW, leads to the only important belief we all have... and that is our faith... get constantly castigated.

From day one on here I have been in those shoes.... I no longer care.

Y'all jump all over Amo's followings because of Ellen White. Yes, I believe she was mistaken in most... but not all.
hll  jump all over those who have ... can I say evolved from what you feel is the proper way to worship... Referring to Buff.

And all the while you are hanging on every word of Jack Cottrell who I find not to my liking based upon the superiors I have learned from.

Amo is 100% correct in every thing he has posted about Pope Frankie (HE does not deserve my respect) and the church of Rome.

But y'all want to play ostrich simply because you cannot get around to accepting he just might know of what he is talking.... and what he says IS NOT from Ellen Whites mouth. It comes from a long hard study that I know a bit about because of my adopted grandfather knowing more then he should 100 plus years ago.

I will quote my 9th grade PA history teacher when she would assign a lesson and follow it up with "A word to the wise should suffice"

WE ARE closer to the end then anyone on here wants to believe. Saying you doubt and finding reasons to doubt will not make it any less so.

I hope I am clear with this

Thanks, Rella, for the clarification; that helps.

Quote from: Rella on Fri Dec 30, 2022 - 11:13:05
Y'all jump all over Amo's followings because of Ellen White.

Actually I don't think I have ever mentioned Ellen White.  I know, sort of, who she is, but actually know next to nothing about her.

Quote from: RellaAnd all the while you are hanging on every word of Jack Cottrell who I find not to my liking based upon the superiors I have learned from.

I have said that Cottrell is my favorite theologian and that is true.  However, I do not hang on his every word; in fact, there are several things or areas in which I disagree with Cottrell.  For example, Cottrell would support Amo in his view of the six-days creation and the flood being global. But for the most part, particularly as it relates to soteriology, I am in nearly complete agreement with Cottrell.

Quote from: RellaAmo is 100% correct in every thing he has posted about Pope Frankie (HE does not deserve my respect) and the church of Rome.

But y'all want to play ostrich simply because you cannot get around to accepting he just might know of what he is talking.... and what he says IS NOT from Ellen Whites mouth. It comes from a long hard study that I know a bit about because of my adopted grandfather knowing more then he should 100 plus years ago.

I don't think that I have disagreed with his view of what is going on in the RCC these days.  I do not necessarily ascribe to his views about RCC in relation to the last days.

Quote from: RellaWE ARE closer to the end then anyone on here wants to believe. Saying you doubt and finding reasons to doubt will not make it any less so.

It may well be that we are closer to the end than some here want to believe.  However, your claiming it to be so and finding reasons you think so will not make it so.  To that end, I find it strange that God would take over 4000 years after creating man to put His plan for the salvation of mankind into action and then end it all after only about 2000 years. But, if indeed that is God's plan, then so be it.

God's plan of the salvation of mankind has been in effect since day one after the fall. He has been actively involved in the salvation of humanity, and has no doubt prevented universal apostasy and destruction again, many times over since then. Every sacrifice presented to God as He Himself directed throughout the history of this world, in repentance of sin, typified faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The everlasting gospel has been preached throughout all ages.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

God is perfect, and in the end, all will see and understand that His timing is perfect as well.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Many believe in a 6000 year timeline for this worlds history. Two thousand from Creation to the flood, two thousand from Abraham and the Jews to Christ, and two thousand from the first advent of Christ to the second one. With the earth resting during the seventh thousand years. Seems to make some sense, concerning the significance of the number seven, representing completeness. Of course there is a lot more involved. A search regarding the 6000 year prophecy, will produce much material regarding the same. I find it interesting, but haven't yet delved deep into it.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 10:15:49
God's plan of the salvation of mankind has been in effect since day one after the fall.

God's plan of salvation of mankind was in effect even before creation. It had not been revealed to mankind until Christ came, lived and died upon the cross.  That was the mystery about which Paul spoke.

Rom 16:25  Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages.

Eph 3:3  how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
Eph 3:4  When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Col 1:26  the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
Col 1:27  To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 10:15:49


Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Another of those bad translations/interpretations from the KJV. 

Heb 4:1  Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
Heb 4:2  For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.

The good news of verse 2 there is the promise of entering his rest mentioned in verse 1, not the gospel of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Dec 30, 2022 - 16:20:21

QuoteThanks, Rella, for the clarification; that helps.
Actually I don't think I have ever mentioned Ellen White.  I know, sort of, who she is, but actually know next to nothing about her.

I find that extremely difficult to believe for there has been many a debate over her, even here on these boards.

How can you consistently knock an individual without knowing from where they derive some, if not all of their beliefs?

QuoteI have said that Cottrell is my favorite theologian and that is true.  However, I do not hang on his every word; in fact, there are several things or areas in which I disagree with Cottrell.  For example, Cottrell would support Amo in his view of the six-days creation and the flood being global.

Well,  to the admission of not blanket following him.

QuoteBut for the most part, particularly as it relates to soteriology, I am in nearly complete agreement with Cottrell.

Question. Was there anything of his that you would say actually influenced your beliefs
or are you a follower because he comes close to the beliefs you formed for yourself?

QuoteI don't think that I have disagreed with his view of what is going on in the RCC these days.  I do not necessarily ascribe to his views about RCC in relation to the last days.It may well be that we are closer to the end than some here want to believe.  However, your claiming it to be so and finding reasons you think so will not make it so.

And your not seeing or understanding those reasons will not nullify them.

QuoteTo that end, I find it strange that God would take over 4000 years after creating man to put His plan for the salvation of mankind into action and then end it all after only about 2000 years.

You find that stranger than God taking the indeterminable amount of time.... guaranteed to be over 4000 years from Creation or Adam... to the flood?  This could be a great subject .

Here is where I see the overall reason that God made Adam to begin with... ( I am not talking about man in their image) comes into play. Adam was created for a specific reason and bringing man into life for infinity was not one of them for then there would have been no need for Jesus. God would just have continued to wipe the earth clean every so many centuries, only to have some one start things up again.

God had/has a plan and it is not up to us to second guess His timing.

I am not YEC but certainly not of the scientific/evolutionary mindset. I am YE in so far as the base 6000 or 7000 we know of in the bible. That is all we need to know. That is our handbook and book of rules. But I am equally certain that initial creation is older then 6000 or 7000 or even the sometimes suggested 13,000 years.

QuoteBut, if indeed that is God's plan, then so be it.

Amen and amen!

Quote from: Rella on Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 15:33:26Question. Was there anything of his that you would say actually influenced your beliefs  or are you a follower because he comes close to the beliefs you formed for yourself?

I attended for two years the college where Cottrell received his undergraduate degree. He was two years ahead of me.  It was the same college where my wife received her BA in Bible.  He was one year ahead of her even though they were the same age.   It was the same college where he taught for nearly fifty years and was the chief professor of Theology for much of his time there.  I have followed him at least since he finished his Ph.D. and returned to the college to teach.

It is not at all strange that we should view much theology similarly.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 14:23:06
God's plan of salvation of mankind was in effect even before creation. It had not been revealed to mankind until Christ came, lived and died upon the cross.  That was the mystery about which Paul spoke.

Rom 16:25  Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages.

Eph 3:3  how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.
Eph 3:4  When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Col 1:26  the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints.
Col 1:27  To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I agree that it was certainly known by God from eternity. It was not in effect though, before it was ever needed. And it was needed immediately after the fall. Which is when it was put in place, though not yet literally established. Though certainly in effect for all who believed and obeyed God by faith in the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, represented in every sacrifice and offering brought before Him in the obedience of faith. What difference is it to God, whether authentic faith is looking forward to the event of salvation, or back upon it. Both are authentic faith in God's plan of salvation. Conceived as we both agree I assume, form eternity in the mind of God.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 14:30:21
Another of those bad translations/interpretations from the KJV. 

Heb 4:1  Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.
Heb 4:2  For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.

The good news of verse 2 there is the promise of entering his rest mentioned in verse 1, not the gospel of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Don't be silly.

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-gospel.html

QuoteThe word gospel literally means "good news" and occurs 93 times in the Bible, exclusively in the New Testament. In Greek, it is the word euaggelion, from which we get our English words evangelist, evangel, and evangelical. The gospel is, broadly speaking, the whole of Scripture; more narrowly, the gospel is the good news concerning Christ and the way of salvation.

The key to understanding the gospel is to know why it's good news. To do that, we must start with the bad news. The Old Testament Law was given to Israel during the time of Moses (Deuteronomy 5:1). The Law can be thought of as a measuring stick, and sin is anything that falls short of "perfect" according to that standard. The righteous requirement of the Law is so stringent that no human being could possibly follow it perfectly, in letter or in spirit. Despite our "goodness" or "badness" relative to each other, we are all in the same spiritual boat—we have sinned, and the punishment for sin is death, i.e. separation from God, the source of life (Romans 3:23). In order for us to go to heaven, God's dwelling place and the realm of life and light, sin must be somehow removed or paid for. The Law established the fact that cleansing from sin can only happen through the bloody sacrifice of an innocent life (Hebrews 9:22).

The gospel involves Jesus' death on the cross as the sin offering to fulfill the Law's righteous requirement (Romans 8:3–4; Hebrews 10:5–10). Under the Law, animal sacrifices were offered year after year as a reminder of sin and a symbol of the coming sacrifice of Christ (Hebrews 10:3–4). When Christ offered Himself at Calvary, that symbol became a reality for all who would believe (Hebrews 10:11–18). The work of atonement is finished now, and that's good news.

The gospel also involves Jesus' resurrection on the third day. "He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification" (Romans 4:25). The fact that Jesus conquered sin and death (sin's penalty) is good news, indeed. The fact that He offers to share that victory with us is the greatest news of all (John 14:19).

The elements of the gospel are clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:3–6, a key passage concerning the good news of God: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living." Notice, first, that Paul "received" the gospel and then "passed it on"; this is a divine message, not a man-made invention. Second, the gospel is "of first importance." Everywhere the apostles went, they preached the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Third, the message of the gospel is accompanied by proofs: Christ died for our sins (proved by His burial), and He rose again the third day (proved by the eyewitnesses). Fourth, all this was done "according to the Scriptures"; the theme of the whole Bible is the salvation of mankind through Christ. The Bible is the gospel.

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile" (Romans 1:16). The gospel is a bold message, and we are not ashamed of proclaiming it. It is a powerful message, because it is God's good news. It is a saving message, the only thing that can truly reform the human heart. It is a universal message, for Jews and Gentiles both. And the gospel is received by faith; salvation is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8–9).

The gospel is the good news that God loves the world enough to give His only Son to die for our sin (John 3:16). The gospel is good news because our salvation and eternal life and home in heaven are guaranteed through Christ (John 14:1–4). "He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you" (1 Peter 1:3–4).

The gospel is good news when we understand that we do not (and cannot) earn our salvation; the work of redemption and justification is complete, having been finished on the cross (John 19:30). Jesus is the propitiation for our sins (1 John 2:2). The gospel is the good news that we, who were once enemies of God, have been reconciled by the blood of Christ and adopted into the family of God (Romans 5:10; John 1:12). "See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!" (1 John 3:1). The gospel is the good news that "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

To reject the gospel is to embrace the bad news. Condemnation before God is the result of a lack of faith in the Son of God, God's only provision for salvation. "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:17–18). God has given a doomed world good news: the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Back on topic.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/12/29/joe-biden-reopens-welfare-dependent-legal-immigration-united-states/

QuoteJoe Biden Reopens Welfare-Dependent Legal Immigration to the United States

President Joe Biden's United States Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has officially reopened legal immigration to foreign nationals with a history of using American taxpayer-funded welfare benefits.

In early 2020, the Trump administration finalized a federal regulation known as the "public charge" rule that made it less likely for foreign nationals to secure green cards to permanently reside in the United States if they had previously used welfare programs like food stamps, Medicaid, or taxpayer-funded housing programs.

Almost immediately after taking office, Biden threw out the finalized public charge rule imposed by the Trump administration, blowing open the door for welfare-dependent legal immigration to the United States, for which American taxpayers will ultimately foot the bill.

Late last week, USCIS started imposing Biden's public charge rule which specifies that foreign nationals with a history of welfare dependency will not be excluded from seeking green cards to permanently resettle in the United States.

"[Department of Homeland Security] will not consider receipt of noncash benefits (for example, Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, public housing, school lunch programs, etc.) other than long-term institutionalization at government expense," the agency states.

When Trump first issued the Public Charge rule in 2019, polls found that the policy was overwhelmingly popular with Americans. About 6 in 10 Americans said they supported ending welfare-dependent legal immigration, including 56 percent of Hispanics and 71 percent of black Americans.

In 2017, the National Academies of Science noted that state and local taxpayers are billed about $1,600 each year per immigrant to pay for their welfare and revealed that immigrant households consume 33 percent more cash welfare than American citizen households.

A similar study from the Center for Immigration Studies found that about 63 percent of noncitizen households use at least one form of public welfare, while only about 35 percent of native-born American households are on welfare. This means that noncitizen households use nearly twice as much welfare as native-born American households.

Every year the federal government rewards about 1.2 million foreign nationals with green cards to permanently resettle in the United States, while another 1.4 million foreign nationals secure various temporary work visas to take American jobs.

The latest Rasmussen Reports survey shows that Americans overwhelmingly, by a 69 percent majority, want to reduce legal immigration levels. This includes a plurality of Americans, 36 percent, who want legal immigration levels cut at least in half.

More wealth redistribution of Roman Catholic social justice, put in place by our Roman Catholic papal puppet President.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 17:33:42
Don't be silly.

Amo, who is the "they" in verse 2 who you would apparently say had the gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed to them? In Hebrews 3:16 they are said to be "all those Moses led out of Egypt".  Are you really suggesting that the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to them?  If so, then I think Paul would disagree with you.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Dec 31, 2022 - 17:49:36
Back on topic.

You were the one who introduced the subject of Hebrews 4:1-2.  I was simply pointing out your lack of understanding of the passage.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 01, 2023 - 06:51:43
You were the one who introduced the subject of Hebrews 4:1-2.  I was simply pointing out your lack of understanding of the passage.

I didn't say let's get back on topic, I just said back on topic, and posted an article on the topic of this thread.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 01, 2023 - 06:42:30
Amo, who is the "they" in verse 2 who you would apparently say had the gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed to them? In Hebrews 3:16 they are said to be "all those Moses led out of Egypt".  Are you really suggesting that the gospel of Jesus Christ was preached to them?  If so, then I think Paul would disagree with you.

I don't think anything, I know they had the gospel preached to them in types and symbols. Not to mention specific prophesies concerning the Messiah. Who do you think led Moses? The entire nation of Israel was led by, completely centered around, and looked prophetically forward to their Messiah Jesus Christ. What do you think the entire Sanctuary services were all about? Go read Hebrews again, and understand who was, is, and will always be right at the center of the salvation of humanity from the very moment of the fall.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Who do you think Moses went to see in the burning bush?

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus declared that He was the God of the burning bush who commanded Moses. He declared that Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus' day, and he saw it, and was glad. Paul says that Jesus Christ is the one who lead Israel through the wilderness. The entire nation of Israel and all of God's own during the old covenant and antediluvian world, were those who looked for and awaited the promised Messiah Jesus Christ. Every sacrifice they made in obedience unto God was by faith in Him. Every act of obedience by them to God, was obedience to Him.

The following link is to the book, The Cross and Its Shadow. Which deals with this subject in depth, if you have any interest.

https://www.remnantofgod.org/books/CS/crossandshadow.htm

I guess you are right.  And the NT is superfluous, not really giving us any new information.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 02, 2023 - 03:12:49
I guess you are right.  And the NT is superfluous, not really giving us any new information.

Your words, not mine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/miami-archbishop-accuses-desantis-of-trying-to-criminalize-empathy-2023-4?op=1

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteCatholic leader accuses Ron DeSantis — who has positioned himself as a defender of the Christian faith — and Florida Republicans of seeking to criminalize 'empathy' with new anti-immigrant crackdown

*Miami Archbishop Thomas Wenski says a Republican immigration bill would criminalize "empathy."

*Backed by Gov. Ron DeSantis, the bill makes it a crime to knowingly transport an undocumented migrant.

*Wenski accused Florida Republicans of trying to "demonize" vulnerable people.

A proposal in Florida that would make it a felony to knowingly provide transportation to an undocumented immigrant is a "punitive" measure that would effectively make it illegal to be a good Christian, the Catholic archbishop of Miami said Thursday, accusing its promoters — including Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis — of seeking to criminalize "empathy."

There are around 772,000 undocumented immigrants in Florida, according to the Migration Policy Institute; around half have resided in the United States for more than a decade. Under a bill making its way through Florida's GOP-led legislature, providing any of those people transportation, be it to a school or church, would be a felony offense and conflated with trafficking, with violators risking prison time.

Last month, a group of evangelicals in Florida spoke out against the proposal, saying it would make them criminals for preaching the gospel.

In a statement issued Thursday, Miami Archbishop Thomas Wenski echoed that criticism, accusing Florida Republicans of playing state-level politics with a federal issue.

The bill, SB 1718, "would criminalize 'empathy' by expanding the definition of 'human smuggling,'" Wenski said. He took issue not just with the transportation provision but the requirement if passed, that hospitals check the immigration status of those they treat, which Wenski argued: "would discourage migrants from seeking timely medical care and would end up overburdening hospital emergency rooms."

He added: "The sponsors of this bill want to take out their frustrations on the migrants with various punitive measures that unfairly demonize them and gratuitously seek to make their lives even more difficult."

A spokesperson for DeSantis, a practicing Catholic who has positioned himself as a defender of the Christian faith, did not respond to a request for comment.

It is not the first time that DeSantis and Florida's Republicans have run afoul of the Catholic Church. In February, the Florida Catholic Conference, which represents the state's bishops, told Insider that it opposes a DeSantis-led push to expand the death penalty. A pending bill would allow a convicted criminal to be put to death even when jurors are opposed, a proposal the conference's executive director, Michael Sheedy, said is "deeply concerning."

The church has also criticized DeSantis on immigration. In February 2022, Archbishop Wenski took issue with DeSantis' rhetoric on unaccompanied minors at the US-Mexico border, accusing him of dehumanizing rhetoric and arbitrarily distinguishing them from Cubans who earlier came to Florida as refugees.

"This was a new low in the zero-sum politics of our divisive times," Wenski said. "Children are children — and no child should be deemed 'disgusting' — especially by a public servant."

DeSantis, however, has shown no signs of responding to the criticism. At the time Wenski made his earlier remarks, then a spokeswoman for DeSantis, Christina Pushaw, went on the offensive. "Catholics do not have to support illegal immigration or human smuggling," she wrote on Twitter.

https://progressive.org/latest/other-americans-migrant-shelters-targeted-abbott-24223/

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

QuoteThe Other Americans: Migration Crackdowns Are Targeting Migrant Shelters in Guatemala

Members of the Episcopal Conference of Guatemala are raising concerns about the implementation of reforms and regulations by the Guatemalan government that they say will put their networks of migrant shelters at risk of closure. The concerns stem from the implementation of requirements that are codified in the country's new immigration law.

The reforms were made in February 2022 by Guatemala's congress, under pressure from the Biden Administration to address irregular migration from Guatemala. They increased the sentence for human trafficking by coyotes, the human smugglers that give routes to migrants, from ten to thirty years in prison.

According to the Episcopal Conference, Guatemala's government is also pressuring the networks of migrant shelters run by the Catholic Church to gather biometric data and other personal information from the migrants they serve and to provide that data to immigration authorities. Due to the vague language of the reforms and the eagerness of Guatemalan authorities to combat migration, the reforms also put humanitarian migrant shelters at risk of trafficking charges.

"The government wants to have access to very detailed data on migrants," says Brenda Peralta, who works with one shelter operator, the Franciscan Network for Migrants. "The concern there is that they want to have more control."

She adds, "The Church's humanitarian [shelters] are there [so migrants can] rest while they continue on their way." 

The Catholic Church's networks across Guatemala includes a total of nine shelters that supply migrants with shelter, food, and other services for up to three days, before they set out to the next shelter along their journey north.

This kind of migrant support could lead to trafficking charges, especially because the shelters also  provide migrants with information about safe routes. Due to these threats of new oversight, the Episcopal Conference has suggested that if they are forced to comply with these new measures the best move may be to close the shelters entirely in order to protect the migrants.

"[The shelters] are not police stations where you have to ask for all the information to know if they are thieves or not," Cardinal Alvaro Ramazzini, who serves as the bishop to the department of Huehuetenango, exclaimed at a press conference in Guatemala City's central plaza on February 9. "No, what matters to us is helping [migrants]."

Members of the Human Mobility Pastoral of Guatemala will be meeting with the country's Vice President Guillermo Castillo and the members of the National Immigration Authority in the coming week to discuss the implementation of the requirements and reforms so that they do not threaten the shelters. But at the same time, those who are providing services for migrants are still concerned that threats could come for simply providing humanitarian services.

"Getting to that point of criminalizing [the shelters] is serious," says Friar Germán Tax, a member of the Franciscan order in Guatemala who manages its migrant shelter south of Guatemala City.

"It is an attack against people, against migrants," he tells The Progressive. "We hope it doesn't come to that, or at least that they accept the modifications. Because what the government wants us to do is practically use us for their interests and that we hand over the data of the migrants and no, that is not possible."

Across the hemisphere, migrant shelters have increasingly come under attack, often by criminal groups, for their support of migrants. These threats have led to the closure of at least two shelters in the last decade.

In Guatemala, the director of the main shelter in Guatemala City received death threats for his work giving refuge to migrants during the caravans of Honduran migrants and asylum seekers in 2020. According to Tax, his parish outside Guatemala City faced threats in October 2022 for providing shelter to Venezuelan migrants in a nearby church, though he says it was unclear if the threats came from gangs or from the government.

According to experts in Guatemala, the current threats stem from the pressure to criminalize coyote networks, and essentially the shelters, that is coming from the United States government.

The government of the United States along with others, have argued that combatting coyote networks is key to resolving irregular migration. Since taking office in 2021, the Biden Administration has especially increased pressure on Guatemalan and other Central American governments, and has often found a willing ally in the administration of Guatemalan president Alejandro Giammattei.

"[These policies] come from the United States," Delia Catu, who works with the Guatemala-based migrants rights advocacy group Pop No'j, tells The Progressive. "Guatemala is now a transit country, [and the United States] does not want [migrants] to pass here and they create norms and laws so they do not pass through here."

This latest wave of migrant suppression traces back to January 2021. That's when a caravan of migrants and asylum seekers who left Honduras and sought to pass through Guatemala in the hopes of reaching the United States were beaten with poles and tear gassed by police and military forces, driving them back to the border.

Since then, the Guatemalan government has attempted to demonstrate that it is trying to resolve the flow of migration to the United States. They have prosecuted a number of those accused of participating in coyote networks.

Police and immigration officials also have expanded the definition of coyote to criminalize those who give passage to migrants seeking to reach the border with Mexico. This has resulted in accusations of trafficking and even the arrests of taxi and bus drivers who give passage to migrants.

These measures have resulted in higher costs and further instability for migrants as they cross through Guatemala, though the nation continues to be one of the primary sources of migrants from the region. Driven by poverty, state abandonment, violence, and the lack of opportunity, migrants will continue to seek an escape. 

"Guatemalans have their very own route because Guatemala continues to export people," Tax says. "They keep going."

https://original.newsbreak.com/@Joe-duncan-561174/2995036152894-critics-say-desantis-immigration-bill-violates-their-religious-liberty

My my. Check out this twisted article quoted below from link above.

QuoteCritics Say DeSantis' Immigration Bill Violates Their Religious Liberty

DeSantis is coming under attack by religious leaders who are criticizing his legislation, saying it violates their religious liberties

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees several fundamental rights. Those include our beloved freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom from religion, the right to the press, the right to peaceful assembly, and the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Of these rights, for many people, the right to religious liberty is the most important.

It protects the right of citizens to practice their religion or religious belief system freely and without interference from the government.

The Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses

The religious freedom aspect of the First Amendment is rooted in the idea that the government should not establish a state religion or favor one particular religion over another. This principle, known as the Establishment Clause, ensures that the government remains neutral on matters of religion and does not interfere with an individual's ability to practice their faith.

In addition to the Establishment Clause, the First Amendment also includes the Free Exercise Clause, which guarantees that individuals have the right to practice their religion as they see fit. This means that individuals are free to worship as they choose, without fear of persecution or discrimination.

Controversies of Religious Freedom

The religious freedom aspect of the First Amendment has been the subject of many legal cases throughout American history. In the landmark case of Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the Supreme Court declared that the Establishment Clause prohibits the government from providing financial support to religious institutions or using tax dollars to support religious activities. Similarly, in the case of Engel v. Vitale (1962), the Court held that school-sponsored prayer violated the Establishment Clause.

Religious liberty has been the source of a lot of controversies lately. In recent years, there have been debates over whether businesses can refuse service to customers based on religious beliefs or whether employers can refuse to provide contraceptive coverage to their employees on religious grounds. These issues highlight the ongoing tension between religious freedom and other important societal values, such as equal treatment under the law.

Religious Leaders Speak Out Against DeSantis

But sometimes, religious freedom conflicts with religious freedom.

After all, what happens when the free exercise of religion conflicts with the state's establishment of religion? While the State of Florida hasn't officially established a state religion, like other governments in the United States, Florida tends to favor some religions over others.

Yesterday, Orlando Representative Anna Eskamani and religious leaders spoke out against DeSantis and Florida's new abortion ban. The law criminalizes abortion after six weeks, and it will take effect if and when the Florida Supreme Court strikes down a challenge to the current law (which is fifteen weeks).

Religious leaders argued that the ban, which was pushed by certain religious denominations, violated the rights of other denominations and Jews. Most Christians believe abortion should be legal in all or almost all cases. Only a handful—mostly Evangelical—believe it should be illegal in all or almost all cases.

Evangelicals are the only religious group that has a majority favoring criminalizing abortion, according to Pew Research.

To ban abortion in support of the Evangelicals is to disallow other religions and religious organizations to practice their religion and other denominations their interpretations of the Bible. Even the Satanic Temple has sued various states for infringing on their religious liberty surrounding abortion.

And now, other religious leaders are arguing that another one of DeSantis' bills is violating their religious liberty.

The bill is called SB 1718, An Act Relating to Immigration, and it sets forth new guidelines, laws, and penalties in an effort that proponents say will curb illegal immigration. The bill prohibits counties, cities, municipalities, and more from issuing ID cards to illegal immigrants. It also requires hospitals to collect immigration data, presumably in an effort to catch illegal immigrants. But it does one other thing that has shaken religious leaders and thinkers, much like the six-week abortion ban has.

The bill makes it a felony to transport an illegal immigrant by vehicle. It doesn't matter if you're an Uber driver or if the friend you've known for a few years turns out to be an illegal immigrant, if you drive them somewhere, it's a felony under the law.

Gabriel Salguero and Myal Greene write for the Orlando Sentinel:

"Jesus taught his followers that the greatest commandment was to love God and to love one's neighbor. He then told the story of a Good Samaritan who exemplified neighborly love by transporting a vulnerable traveler in need to get help. If SB 1718 passes into law unamended, such transportation would be a felony in Florida — at least if the Good Samaritan knew or had reason to suspect that the neighbor in need had entered the United States unlawfully.

Just as the Bible says life begins at the first breath—and not fertilization—in Genesis, the New Testament says that Christians should help travelers and love thy neighbor. As WLRN writes:

"Florida's 'anti-illegal immigration bill' targets more than just undocumented migrants. A piece of legislation recognized as an "anti-illegal immigration bill" is making its way through the Florida Legislature and looks likely to pass.

"SB 1718 proposes harsh punishments not just for undocumented migrants who are in the state, but for anyone who hires or helps them. That could have a dramatic effect on South Florida, economically, in agriculture and tourism; and socially, in hospitals and universities.

This has even gotten some Evangelicals upset.

Some Florida evangelicals have released a statement calling on DeSantis to reconsider the immigration bill.

This ought to give DeSantis pause. DeSantis' six-week abortion ban has already done incalculable damage to his political brand. As writers for NBC News said, "For better or worse, Ron DeSantis now owns Florida's six-week abortion ban."

But this immigration bill is receiving even more blowback from religious leaders than the abortion bill.

It's a rare day indeed that Evangelical leaders challenge the Republican Party for violating their religious freedom. But that's precisely what's happening with this bill.

What do you think should happen to the immigration bill? Do you think DeSantis should sign it? Or does it go too far?

QuoteYesterday, Orlando Representative Anna Eskamani and religious leaders spoke out against DeSantis and Florida's new abortion ban. The law criminalizes abortion after six weeks, and it will take effect if and when the Florida Supreme Court strikes down a challenge to the current law (which is fifteen weeks).

Religious leaders argued that the ban, which was pushed by certain religious denominations, violated the rights of other denominations and Jews. Most Christians believe abortion should be legal in all or almost all cases.

And what exactly is wrong with the 6 week limitation? While I personally abhor any thoughts of abortion, all women who would seek one knows by the 6th week if she is or is not pregnant.

"Most Christians believe abortion should be legal in all or almost all cases"

Sorry, Those are not Christians IMO

Quote from: Rella on Sat Apr 29, 2023 - 06:26:17
And what exactly is wrong with the 6 week limitation? While I personally abhor any thoughts of abortion, all women who would seek one knows by the 6th week if she is or is not pregnant.

"Most Christians believe abortion should be legal in all or almost all cases"

Sorry, Those are not Christians IMO

Twisted is, as twisted does.

QuoteYesterday, Orlando Representative Anna Eskamani and religious leaders spoke out against DeSantis and Florida's new abortion ban. The law criminalizes abortion after six weeks, and it will take effect if and when the Florida Supreme Court strikes down a challenge to the current law (which is fifteen weeks).

Religious leaders argued that the ban, which was pushed by certain religious denominations, violated the rights of other denominations and Jews. Most Christians believe abortion should be legal in all or almost all cases. Only a handful—mostly Evangelical—believe it should be illegal in all or almost all cases.

Those who claim that it impinges on "religious practice" are abusing the term. 

Since when is abortion a matter of church and/or Biblical doctrine?  Show me one document from any church or denomination REQUIRING women to have an abortion.   Unless it is required, limiting or outlawing abortion is NOT impinging on the free practice of their religion.

The ancient Aztec religion REQUIRED the periodic human sacrifice of a young girl whose still-beating heart was held up in the hands of the priest to the rising sun.  To outlaw that practice IS IMPINGING on the practice of that religion by its adherents. I am sure none of the pro-abortion camp would advocate allowing that to be done today.

C'mon people - be consistent.

https://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/our-vision-and-ministry/immigration-refugee-services/

https://www.usccb.org/migrationministries

https://www.cliniclegal.org

https://ccsww.org/get-help/specialized-services/refugee-immigration-services/

https://uscatholic.org/articles/202002/the-new-parish-ministry-empowering-immigrant-catholics/

http://www.cccsos.org/programs-services/immigration-services/

https://archseattle.org/ministries/outreach-ministries/immigrant-refugee-ministry/

https://www.usccb.org/resources/migrationministries.pdf

https://www.catholicextension.org/stories/5-catholic-ministries-helping-migrants-border/

https://dioceseofbrooklyn.org/diocesan-offices/migration-office/

https://www.ccda.net

https://txcatholic.org/pastoral-resources/how-you-can-help/ministries-migration/

https://www.dwtx.org/what-we-do/ministries/immigration-refugee-ministries

https://www.ccdallas.org/services/immigration-legal-services/

https://www.dolr.org/immigration-services

https://pvm.archchicago.org/human-dignity-solidarity/immigration-ministry/catholic-campaign-for-immigration-reform

https://www.arlingtondiocese.org/immigration/

https://www.oakdiocese.org/catholic-immigration-services

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23315024211035726

https://www.catholicsandcultures.org/germany/migration-immigration

https://charitiessc.org/immigration-legal-services

https://www.immigrationadvocates.org/nonprofit/legaldirectory/search?state=SC

https://www.catholiccharitiesraleigh.org/immigration/

https://www.ccannj.org/immigration-and-refugee/

I could no doubt go on and on, searching for state and county entities as well. As stated in other threads, the Roman Catholic church represents an agent of subversion from within very nation she exists. The more there are, the more subversion they can effect. They subvert and or redistribute peoples, cultures, wealth, natural resources, and so on and so forth unto the religious, political, and economic outcomes they desire. Which in the end is a two class society of wealthy and powerful elitist clergy and politicians, who lord themselves over the dependent laity and poor they themselves have established for this very purpose. All in their plans to bring the entire world back into a state similar to that of the feudalist states of dark ages Europe, whose leaders were also in bed with the Vatican unto said two class social structure. Where they can once again crush all dissent, and stamp out personal freedoms and liberty of conscience. In the worship of the final global beast of biblical prophecy. So be it, as God's prophetic word has determined.

Well, probably no need to go over the details of mass migration at our southern boarders for the last several months of inactivity here. Under the leadership of our second Roman Catholic President, who vowed to work closely with the Pope of Rome, we basically have no southern boarder. The papal agenda of the redistribution of peoples is moving along very well.

https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/catholic-teaching-on-immigration-and-the-movement-of-peoples

The quote below is taken from the link above, where the topic may be viewed in its entirety. All emphasis is mine.

QuoteThird Principle: A country must regulate its borders with justice and mercy.

The second principle of Catholic social teaching may seem to negate the first principle. However, principles one and two must be understood in the context of principle three. And all Catholic social teaching must be understood in light of the absolute equality of all people and the commitment to the common good.

A country's regulation of borders and control of immigration must be governed by concern for all people and by mercy and justice. A nation may not simply decide that it wants to provide for its own people and no others. A sincere commitment to the needs of all must prevail.

In our modern world where communication and travel are much easier, the burden of emergencies cannot be placed solely on nations immediately adjacent to the crises. Justice dictates that the world community contribute resources toward shelter, food, medical services, and basic welfare.

Even in the case of less urgent migrations, a developed nation's right to limit immigration must be based on justice, mercy, and the common good, not on self-interest. Moreover, immigration policy ought to take into account other important values such as the right of families to live together. A merciful immigration policy will not force married couples or children to live separated from their families for long periods.

Undocumented immigrants present a special concern. Often their presence is considered criminal since they arrive without legal permission. Under the harshest view, undocumented people may be regarded as undeserving of rights or services. This is not the view of Catholic social teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that every person has basic human rights and is entitled to have basic human needs met—food, shelter, clothing, education, and health care. Undocumented persons are particularly vulnerable to exploitation by employers, and they are not able to complain because of the fear of discovery and deportation. Current immigration policy that criminalizes the mere attempt to immigrate and imprisons immigrants who have committed no crime or who have already served a just sentence for a crime is immoral. In the Bible, God promises that our judgment will be based on our treatment of the most vulnerable. Before God we cannot excuse inhumane treatment of certain persons by claiming that their lack of legal status deprives them of rights given by the Creator.

Finally, immigration policy that allows people to live here and contribute to society for years but refuses to offer them the opportunity to achieve legal status does not serve the common good. The presence of millions of people living without easy access to basic human rights and necessities is a great injustice.

It is the position of the Catholic Church that pastoral, educational, medical, and social services provided by the Church are never conditioned on legal status. All persons are invited to participate in our parishes, attend our schools, and receive other services offered by our institutions and programs.

The Catholic Church certainly has the right to believe and teach as they wish. Including the presumptuous belief that it is their place to tell all the nations of this earth how they need to be. They also certainly have the right to treat illegal immigrants how they please.

Nevertheless, when they teach and advise their adherents to ignore the laws of the nation they are within accordingly, they become agents of political subversion within said nations. It is one thing for the Catholic Church to provide these possibly subversive services from and by her own means, it is another altogether to redistribute the wealth of nations toward outcomes at variance with the laws and wills of the people of nations. The Catholic Church receives countless billions of dollars a year of tax monies from nations whose citizens have not agreed to or with such governmental support. She then uses those funds to subvert the will of nations and peoples right under their noses. Taking their tax monies and redistributing it to illegal immigrants without their permission. This is nothing short of theft.

Using the tax monies and resources of nations without the permission of its people, to fund the facilitation of illegal immigration, and feed, house, clothe, provide free medical services for, and what have you, is called stealing. Which the eighth commandment forbids. The politicians of this country have no right to place the will of the Pope, the leader of another nation, over and above the will of its people. This is one of the exact sins Protestants of the past rejected, along with a great many Catholics themselves in the convulsions of the French Revolution. That is governments bowing to the will of Popes and prelates over and above the will of their own peoples. Why will we repeat this disastrous history over again? Nevertheless, God's word has predicted it will be so.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?.................................
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.     

https://thejesuitpost.org/2021/04/the-u-s-catholic-church-needs-migrants-and-not-just-to-fill-pews/

Article below from link above.

THE JESUIT POST

The U.S. Catholic Church Needs Migrants, and Not Just to Fill Pews

Does your local parish have a Spanish Mass? Maybe Vietnamese, Portuguese, or another non-English language?

It is a trend that has been growing over the past few decades, with 29% of U.S. parishes celebrating Mass in a language other than English as of 2010. Incorporating one or more ethnic groups into a single parish creates a "shared parish" where shared spaces are negotiated between ethnic groups under the umbrella of a single parish. These parishes welcome migrant communities and enrich the local church.

The shared parish fits with the times. We live in a transnational world of globalization and multinational corporations, along with unprecedented levels of migration.
 
The motives for migration to the United States remain varied. Violence, like the drug-related gang violence in Mexico and Central America, drives refugees and asylum seekers to leave their homes in search of safety, while pronounced economic disparity between the United States and many of its neighbors impels others to migrate in search of work.

In this milieu of a globalized world, the Catholic Church acts transnationally across borders and, in fact, is well positioned to do so.1 Migrants, particularly the large percentage from Latin America who are Catholic, benefit in various ways from the transnational nature of the Church. This is certainly clear in the proliferation of shared parishes. But it is important to note that the relationship is mutually beneficial, as the U.S. Catholic Church benefits from the richness and diversity brought by migrants.

Simply put: migrants need the Church, and the Church needs migrants.


The urgency of this attentiveness to the mutually beneficial relationship between migrants and the Church remains pressing in the United States. President Trump made anti-immigration policies a rallying cry of his presidency, beginning with shouts of "Build the Wall" during his campaign. He is out of office now, but the ramifications of four years spent weakening channels for legal entry, failing to address backlogs of asylum claims, and freezing hires in the Office of Refugee Resettlement have slowed the Biden administration's ability to respond to rising levels of migrants in 2021.

Crowded migrant shelters filled with children are proving to be a serious test of President Biden's first hundred days in office. Meanwhile, Republican senators have tabled any talks about pathways to citizenship for undocumented immigrants until the rising number of migrants at the border is addressed to their liking.

In contrast to unstable political rhetoric around migration, the official teachings and pronouncements of the U.S. Catholic Church stand in strong defense of migrants. There is a long tradition of Catholic Social Teaching supporting the rights of people to migrate.

The document "Strangers No Longer" published in 2003 by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) along with the Catholic bishops' conference of Mexico outlines extensive proposals for public policy changes in the United States in favor of migrants, including broadening legal avenues for migration, providing paths to legalization for undocumented migrants, and a review of enforcement tactics that lead to abuse, discrimination, and death. These are bold political recommendations coming from the Church, and they are desperately needed.


Migrants need the Church.

In the midst of anti-immigration rhetoric and policies, the Church can advocate on behalf of migrants' rights, giving voice to those who are too often left voiceless. For example, in the wake of publishing "Strangers No Longer," the USCCB formed the Justice for Immigrants campaign to unite and mobilize Catholic institutions and individuals in support of immigration reform. Catholic Charities USA and the Catholic Legal Immigration Network are two other examples of Catholic organizations committed to defending the rights of immigrants and advocating for policy change.

Beyond advocacy efforts in the United States, various Catholic-based organizations are working to care for migrants at every step of their journey. Dozens of shelters along the migrant corridor through Mexico offer food, medical services, and a place to rest along the dangerous route through the country. Organizations like the Kino Border Initiative operate along the U.S.-Mexico border assisting those in transit and those who have been detained or deported. The Mujer y Familia Migrante program by Jesuit Migrant Services in Mexico provides supportive interventions for families separated by migration, including mental health support groups and revenue-generating projects. This host of ministries advocates, supports, and accompanies migrants in transit and upon arrival, and cares for the communities they leave behind.2

These efforts could easily be amplified and expanded if more parishes join the fray in advocating and working on behalf of migrants. While the messaging in official church teaching has been clear in support of migrants, this message does not always get filtered down to the pews of the average Catholic in the United States. Have you heard Church teachings on immigration preached about in your own parish? Migrants need support and advocacy from the Church, and not just from a select few parishes and organizations.

Just as importantly, migrants need the Church for the spiritual assistance their faith provides and the cultural connections drawn through Church participation. The migrant journey to the United States from Central America and Mexico is often fraught with difficulties and dangers. Many migrants pray for an intercessor, like the Virgin Mary or a particular Marian apparition, to accompany them on their journey. Rosaries or other small, portable religious artifacts are often among the few possessions that migrants bring with them. Migrants are drawing on their faith and religious experiences to find strength and hope along their journey.

Upon arrival in the United States, encountering a welcoming parish can help migrants adapt to their new context and feel connected to their homeland, especially when liturgies and ministry are offered in their native language. It can be a powerful emotional experience for a person to hear their native language used for public prayer in a country dominated by a foreign language and amid rising anti-immigrant sentiment in the public sphere.

For the advocacy efforts and humanitarian aid, for spiritual assistance and cultural connections, migrants need the Church.


The Church needs migrants.

The U.S. Catholic Church likewise benefits from the presence of migrants. Let me begin by stressing that this is not because of the baseless claims that the Church supports migration to simply fill churches. The Church needs migrants because they carry ideas, introduce skills, and build bridges across cultures.

Coming from a different country and context, migrants can bring a broader understanding of what religion is and where to find it. When Latin American migrants introduce devotional practices like home altars, or host public events like a celebration for Our Lady of Guadalupe, it enriches the U.S. Catholic Church.
 
Migrants can also model lay leadership, as some migrants come from remote communities without a resident priest. By necessity, this reality creates a culture of strong lay leadership. Bringing these experiences to the U.S., migrants can help to encourage greater participation from the laity in parishes here.3

Shared parishes between ethnic groups, including English- and Spanish-speaking populations, can be the source of meaningful intercultural encounter. Pope Francis has made "encounter" an important theme of his pontificate. He introduced this concept in his homily on the Vigil of Pentecost in 2013: "It is important to be ready for encounter. For me this word is very important. Encounter with others. Why? Because faith is an encounter with Jesus, and we must do what Jesus does: encounter others."

That being said, there is a high risk in shared parishes of "cultural encapsulation," where distinct cultural communities function in parallel with only limited interaction in negotiating shared spaces. Maybe there are weekend Masses in English and Spanish, but do those populations ever intermingle? Just bumping into each other in the parking lot is not enough to engender mutual understanding. In fact, it can cause tension and lead to avoidance between groups.
 
But the potential remains high in shared parishes for creating social spaces of community dialogue where new perspectives can be offered and social networks can be grown across groups. Healthy dialogue can break down stereotypes and build relationships. This form of encounter benefits all, including migrants and native-born citizens in the parish.

For the new practices and devotions introduced into parishes, for modeling lay leadership, and for the opportunities for intercultural encounter, the U.S. Catholic Church needs migrants.


With rising numbers of migrants reaching our southern border, we need to be reminded of the mutually beneficial relationship between the Church and migrants in our transnational world.
 
Migrants look to the Church to provide service and aid along the journey and advocate for their rights when they are not given a voice. Migrants draw spiritual fruits from their faith to help them through the dangers and difficulties of migration, and they find safe spaces of comfort and strength where they can practice their faith in shared parishes.

The U.S. Catholic Church needs migrants for the new practices and devotions they bring, for the broader understanding of the faith they offer, and for their modeling of lay leadership. Shared parishes that bring together multiethnic populations are a source of great potential for intercultural encounter that can build bridges and create networks between groups. Rooted in faith and compelled by Church teaching, parishes in the United States need to respond to the signs of the times to create welcoming spaces and increased advocacy efforts on behalf of migrants.
 
We do not need a bigger wall. We need more bridges. Because migrants need the Church, and the Church needs migrants.

https://crisismagazine.com/opinion/illegal-immigration-and-the-catholic-church-follow-the-money

Article below from link above.

Illegal Immigration and the Catholic Church: Follow the Money

Is the Church enabling criminality and facilitating the oppression of the immigrants we are hoping to help?

The open border and uncontrolled influx of millions of people have devastating consequences. It is a true crisis.

Over the last two-and-a-half years, over 7 million illegal immigrants have entered the United States. That number does not include those who escaped detection and are not in any official counts. By the end of 2024, it is projected that well over ten percent of the population will be here illegally. 

The results of President Biden's decision not to enforce border laws and the massive illegal immigrant flow takes various forms. Challenges include drug and human trafficking, child abuse, sexual exploitation, indentured servitude and other labor crimes, environmental crimes, gang violence, assorted welfare frauds, national security concerns, money laundering, homelessness and squalor on the streets of American cities and towns, and the corrosive effects of flaunting the rule of law. 

Yet, the above categories of crime are sterile. There are countless very real and horrific examples of injury, death, heartache, and suffering for individuals, families, and communities.

The net dollar cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayers is at least $151 billion a year. Most expenditures at the federal, state, and local levels involve housing, education, health care, and increased expenditures on law enforcement and related services.

So why is the above criminality allowed to continue—and even encouraged? In this era of massive deficit spending, why are the expenditures not questioned?

I often found it helpful in my past work in federal law enforcement and the intelligence community to focus on two factors when examining criminal and strategic issues: (1) Cui bono? (Who stands to benefit?); and (2) Money.

It always comes back to money. Outside of crimes of passion, criminals and criminal organizations commit crimes for financial gain. Greed—avarice—is one of the seven deadly sins. It is part of the human condition.

There are many parties that benefit from illegal immigration. 

Of course, the illegal immigrants themselves benefit. Despite the misinformation that emanates from the Biden administration and the mainstream news media, illegal immigrants are not "refugees" or "political prisoners," or fleeing from "global climate change." They are not arriving in small, loving, family units or striving for "family reunification."

The overwhelming majority are economic migrants. They are mostly young males searching for a better life. They come to the United States to make money (both legally and illegally). Most are extremely poor and quasi-illiterate. Few speak English. Some are infected with very serious communicable diseases. Unfortunately, with the open border policies in place, we don't really know who they are. There are no meaningful background checks.

The countries of origin for the illegal immigrants benefit from their emigration. Worldwide, in 2022, migrant workers sent almost $800 billion back to their home countries. The United States is the largest source country for worldwide remittances, especially for Latin America and the Caribbean. For example, Mexico received about $60 billion in official remittances. Yet the real number is far higher.

In addition to well-known remittance service providers such as Western Union and Money Gram, unofficial or informal money and value transfer systems are also very popular with migrants. Some of these methods include the South Asian hawala network, the Chinese "flying money" system, simple bulk cash smuggling, trade-based value transfer, and, increasingly, various forms of mobile payments and mirror "swaps." Most of these networks are underground and most operate illegally. In addition, remittances, whether official or unofficial, are not taxed. The end result is a massive outflow of money leaving the United States and flowing into recipient countries. For example, approximately 25 percent of El Salvador's GDP is due to remittances. 

Organized crime, cartels, gangs, and our geo-political adversaries and terrorist organizations also benefit from open borders and illegal immigration. Open borders facilitate narcotics trafficking—and the laundering of hundreds of billions of illicit proceeds every year. The cartels are astute business organizations. Recognizing the enormous profits to be made in facilitating human trafficking through smuggling routes, networks, and territory they control, they modified their business plan. 

Charging fees that vary but generally range in the tens of thousands of dollars per person, some observers believe the cartels now make more money trafficking humans than narcotics. The sordid business of human trafficking also involves indentured servitude or the payment of smuggling fees over time. Many victims, including children, work in the sex trade or labor long hours in underground ethnic-based businesses around the country.

The cartels are expanding their physical presence and reach into the United States. They are increasingly involved in other lucrative crimes such as organized theft rings and stolen cars. The open border and illegal immigration also facilitate the entry of tens of thousands of military-age males from adversaries such as China and Venezuela into the United States. So far in 2023, the U.S. Border Patrol has stopped 146 individuals currently on the terrorist watch list. Those numbers do not count the ones we did not catch.

Big business, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and other "elites" also benefit from illegal immigration. They enjoy cheap labor and more consumers. Meanwhile, the American worker—particularly minorities—suffer from depressed wages, loss of buying power, and the dilution of government services caused by illegal immigrant competition.

The Democratic Party benefits from its promotion of open border policies and illegal immigration. It is part of former President Obama's "fundamental transformation" of the United States. Without a national "conversation," the Democratic Party is actively working to change the population dynamics.

Illegal immigrants are given (bribed with) taxpayer-funded welfare, food stamps, healthcare, education for their children, and other government handouts. Illegal immigrants voting by the millions, facilitated by questionable practices such as lack of genuine identification, ballot harvesting, and drop boxes, change the electorate at the federal, state, and local levels. Coming from Latin American socialist collectivism, the schemes must seem normal to the recent arrivals.

The Biden Administration has endorsed and incentivized the entry of more illegal immigrants than the populations of 32 states (counting the District of Columbia). Democrats know that if, for example, Texas turns blue, they will cement their hold on power. And power means the ability to control the money flow to their activists and special interests. 

With the above as context, let's examine the role of the American Catholic Church in facilitating the immigration crisis. 

The corporal acts of mercy necessitate that we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, shelter the homeless, and clothe the naked. Our compassion dictates that we assist strangers to our homeland. But when it comes to illegal immigration, is our empathy misplaced? Is the Church enabling the above criminality and facilitating the oppression of the immigrants we are hoping to help? Are leftists and naïve do-gooders in the Church participating in the transformation of the United States that by far the overwhelming majority of all Americans, particularly Catholics, do not want?   

Decades ago, the State Department began to resettle genuine refugees in the United States. They approached the Catholic Church for help. Today, that legitimate assistance has turned into an "illegal immigration complex" worth billions of dollars. 

Liberal groups make the correct calculation that most will be afraid to criticize the Biden Administration's use of nongovernmental organizations and faith-based groups to help mask the flow of federal money to aid illegal immigration. Unfortunately, some people smear as racist anyone who advocates for securing the border—something that should be considered non-controversial and essential for all nation-states.

Francis, a leftist globalist Argentine, has made the defense of illegal immigration a major plank of his papacy. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is all-in. Post-Covid, weekly Mass attendance has continued its steep decline. There is a need to fill both the pews and the collection plates.

Catholic organizations are among the top recipients of federal immigration funds. Between 2008-2022, Catholic charitable organizations received approximately $3 billion in federal funding. The USCCB acts as a kind of general contractor. It is the single largest grantee of subawards in the nation. For example, Catholic Charities receives direct funding from the USG but also subawards from the USCCB. According to Forbes, in 2022 Catholic Charities USA was the 13th-largest U.S. charity. Of $4.7 billion in total revenues, Catholic Charities received $1.4 billion from government support. 

In short, the globalist Left and the Biden Administration are hiding behind faith-based organizations to keep federal grants flowing to assist illegal immigration and to deflect from the horrific criminal results. Meanwhile, it is clear many Catholic charities benefit financially from their participation in—and promotion of—illegal immigration. 

Shouldn't Catholic charitable organizations devote themselves to the problems of poverty, lack of education, inequality, unemployment, and poor health care in the illegal immigrants' countries of origin instead of helping criminals break U.S. law and transform our country?

Rather, it appears that once again, it all comes back to money.