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The following article is in 3 parts, all 3 are following below.

It has been pointed out to me that mysticism was discussed previously on GC but that was quite a long time ago.
Perhaps it has been within the past few years but I do not recall, or if it was it did not particularly grab me as the following did.

Part one of three... which is here ... I have copied and pasted exactly as presented and the only emphasis that would be mine is in blue... or perhaps bolded.

QuoteMysticism and the Coming World Religion – Part 1
April 11, 2023
Bible Prophecy, Cults and False Religions, End Times
Mysticism and the Coming World Religion — Part 1
By T. A. McMahon

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." – 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" – Revelation 13:3-4

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." – Revelation 13:8

According to the Scriptures, in the last days prior to Christ's return a religion will appear that will deceive virtually the entire world into following it. It will be led by the Antichrist ("the beast"), who will be worshiped as God.

Scripture also indicates, however, that the bride of Christ will be removed from the earth in the Rapture (Jn 14:1-3; 1 Th 4:16-18) before that religion is fulfilled. If true, then why would the knowledge of the coming world religion be of value for true believers in Christ?

There are a number of reasons. First of all, the biblically false content of the coming world religion doesn't suddenly appear overnight. The seeds of it began in the Garden of Eden with Satan's seduction of Eve (Gn 3:1). His first words, "Yea, hath God said...?," set forth his strategy of undermining God's commands and instructions. That has continued right up to this present time and is increasing exponentially. Secondly, Satan's offer of godhood to Eve has manifested itself throughout history. Most of the religions of the Far East teach that God is everything or in everything, making everything and everyone God or part of God. Many of the Caesars and other rulers imposed the worship of themselves as deities upon their people. Those forms of idolatry will culminate in the worship of self, the Antichrist, and Satan.

Thirdly, Jesus characterized the days prior to His return for His bride as a time of great deception. He told His disciples, "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Mt 24:4 – emphasis added). His warning included deceits such as false Christs, lying signs and wonders, and unbiblical doctrines and teachers. Some have wrongly concluded that Christ's warning wasn't for believers, asserting that verse 24 implies that it would be impossible to "deceive the very elect" (24:24). That can't be the case because Jesus addressed this warning (v. 4) to His disciples — who were certainly His "elect." Fourthly, the Word of God gives multiple instructions on how to protect ourselves from the lies of Satan that can adversely affect our fruitfulness in the Lord.

These seductive and deceptive devices of God's chief adversary will increase prior to the Rapture, but God's Word gives us the prevention program against being seduced by Satan's lies: "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pt 5:8).

The Apostle Paul pointed to a time in the history of the church when a condition would be prevalent that would greatly undermine the faith of professing and true believers: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tm 4:3). Sound doctrine — what is that? It's simply the teachings given to mankind by God through His prophets. It is God's written Word, His objective communication to humanity, containing information that comes directly from Him without the input of mankind. That's what makes it sound doctrine. God, being infinite, has communicated to finite man what He wants him to know and do. That's the only way finite humanity can truly know their infinite Creator and what He has in mind regarding them.

Undermining sound doctrine is Satan's primary goal in his attempt to shipwreck the faith and fruitfulness of believers. The strategy involves corrupting the Word of God by adding to it or subtracting from it. Thus the Scriptures are distorted through the input of fallen, finite man and the contributions of seducing spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tm 4:1). Such modifications demolish the objective truth of Scripture. The Bible no longer stands as God's Word when "adjustments" are made by other sources. This is taking place today in unprecedented fashion, especially through the introduction (or re-introduction) of mysticism.

The antithesis of the objective Word of God, mysticism is defined by The Merriam-Webster Dictionary as "the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience such as intuition or insight," and adds that it is "vague speculation, a belief without sound basis." Google gives this definition: "belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult qualities or mysterious agencies." A mystical worldview, which is intensifying in both the world and its religions, will be foundational to the coming one-world religion.

Among many reasons, the primary one is that mysticism has a universal appeal that will attract and unify all the religions of the world. Why? Because it avoids doctrine (rules, regulations, commandments, obligations, requirements, etc.). The doctrines of the Bible are given by God and are to be obeyed; not obeying them is rebellion, which is the state of the world as well as the state of many within the church. The religions of the world also have doctrines, albeit false ones, against which their followers often rebel. Doctrines divide because people don't particularly like rules that demand obedience. The stricter the rules, the less attractive the religion. That's a potential problem for the religion of the Antichrist because its goal is to attract other belief systems and draw all people into its spiritual web.

Mysticism avoids objective rules and requirements, whether biblical or not. It's a belief system without a sound (objective) basis that majors on subjective experience, insights, intuition, dreamy confusion of thought (e.g., altered states of consciousness), speculation, and mysterious agencies. So the arbiter of what is right and true is how one feels: "If it feels right, then it must be right, and therefore ultimately true."

In order for mysticism to become the foundational belief system of the one-world religion, it must include all the world religions. With rare exceptions, the religions of the Far East are fundamentally mystical, so little change is necessary for them. But what of the law-oriented religions of Roman Catholicism and Islam? Their combined numbers exceed two billion followers, so they must be included in the religion of the Antichrist. Yet they are both legalistic—Catholicism with its canons and decrees, inquisitions, and obligations, and Islam with its Sharia laws. Obviously this must change in order for them to fit in with the necessary ecumenism of the one-world religion.

Such a change will likely be facilitated by the roots of mysticism that have been a part of both religions for centuries. In Roman Catholicism, for example, the influence of the Desert Fathers began in the third century, just before Constantine, and continued past the time of Augustine in the fourth and fifth centuries. These were hermits and mystics, living in seclusion, in caves, some of them attempting to imitate Jesus in His personal desert confrontation with the devil. Their fleshly attempts at overcoming Satan and his demons often led to madness. They lived in caves, isolated from the rest of civilization, which also led to altered states of consciousness. As we know today, that condition opens a person to communication with the spirit world, i.e., demons. An altered mental state often creates the illusion of oneness, or union, with God—the ultimate goal of mysticism.

This system of isolation was in place at the beginning of the development of the Roman Catholic Church. It was furthered through monasticism, in which monks and nuns withdrew from society by entering monasteries. The idea was to fully commit themselves to God by separating from the secular world. Some monastic orders took vows of silence. That left them vulnerable to the spirit realm. (Silence, by the way, is a huge feature of and heavily promoted by the contemplative movement today.)

In the sixteenth century, a Spaniard named Ignatius Loyola, who was the founder of the Jesuits, fostered mysticism through his Spiritual Exercises. They are enormously popular among Catholics and contemplative evangelicals today. One Jesuit source tells us: "Ignatius was convinced that God can speak to us as surely through our imagination as through our thoughts and memories. In the Ignatian tradition, praying with the imagination is called contemplation" (Kevin O'Brien, The Ignatian Adventure: Experiencing the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, p.141). "Praying with the imagination," by the way, is another term for creative visualization, a powerful occult technique that ushers the visualizer into the spirit realm.

Contemplative techniques have divorced the practitioner from the objective Word of God, leading one into the subjective arena of the imagination and feelings. This is what people like Richard Foster (Celebration of Discipline) and Sarah Young (Jesus Calling) are promoting. The practical consequences of disregarding critical judgment are often disastrous. Yet that is and will be the outcome of a religious system that people will flock to in the Last Days.

Following the mystical practices of Ignatius Loyola in our day were Catholics Thomas Merton and Henri Nouwen. Both are deceased. Merton was a Trappist monk and priest; Nouwen was also a priest, and both were well-known mystics. They were paragons of the modern contemplative movement and greatly influenced leading evangelicals such as Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, Eugene Peterson, Beth Moore, Kay Warren, and others. Merton studied the Desert Fathers and the Christian mystics and recognized their connection with the meditative practices of Eastern mysticism in Zen Buddhism, Taoism, and Sufism, which he taught and practiced. Asked if he felt that "turning away from traditional Christianity toward the East" would cause "an eventual turning back to a different form of Christianity, one that might even be more genuine," Merton replied, "Yes, I think so" (Merton, Thomas Merton: Preview of the Asian Journey, 53-54).

Henri Nouwen has become the favored mystic among evangelicals. One of his most popular books is Behold the Beauty of the Lord: Praying with Icons. It's an instruction manual on how to use imagery as the window of heaven in order to enter into the deeper things of the soul. Nouwen espouses mysticism because he sees it "as my call to help every person claim his or her own way to God." That doesn't seem to faze Rick Warren, who quotes him favorably in his best-selling Purpose Driven Life, or Kay Warren, who recommends Nouwen's books, or Philip Yancy, who sings his praises in Christianity Today, or Chuck Swindoll, who is enamored with his contemplative teachings, or Tony Campolo, who calls the deceased Catholic priest "one of the great Christians of our time."

Of late there is Pope Francis. Surging ahead at an ecumenical and mystical speed that thrills the world's religions and has left traditional Catholicism in its wake, the pope and his ecumenism has many professing Christians flocking to Rome at his personal invitation: Kenneth Copeland, James Robison, Rick Warren, Geoff Tunnicliffe, John Arnott, and Joel Osteen, to name a few. After meeting with the pope, Osteen said, "I like the fact that this pope is trying to make the church larger, not smaller. He's not pushing people out but making the church more inclusive. That resonated with me." Luis Palau has been a long-time friend of the pope, and Timothy George wrote an article for Christianity Today titled "Our Francis, Too: Why we can enthusiastically join arms with the Catholic leader."

The most influential evangelical pastor today, Rick Warren, refers to him as "our new pope." Pope Francis is certainly the man for the renewal of mystical Roman Catholicism. He's a Jesuit, fully rehearsed in the Spiritual Exercises. In his address before the US Congress recently, he praised mystic monk and priest Thomas Merton.

Many were appalled that one of the first overtures of the new head of the Roman Catholic Church in regard to winning and influencing evangelicals was to send a personal greeting to a conference led by Kenneth Copeland. Was the pope clueless about Copeland's false doctrines, his charismatic abuses, his prosperity distortions of Scripture, not to mention his con-man-like greed? I think not. Why? Because it doesn't really matter. Doctrines, whether true or false, take a back seat — or no seat at all — in mysticism. Remember, as noted, doctrines divide. Therefore they need to be pushed aside in order to make room for what helps people to get along, what encourages relationship building, what feels right. That was the gist of the Christianity Today article, "What Evangelicals Like about Francis." Never mind the theology of the pope. It's how he makes everyone feel. More and more, it seems, this is what's important to people.

Fewer and fewer evangelicals today seem to care that all the feel good stuff that Francis reflects personally won't save him or anyone else. Neither will the gospel of his Church save anyone – whether it's the new or the old Catholicism. The following quotes in the official Catholic catechism have been a mystery for quite a while. Many within and without the Church have been at a loss as to how to interpret them: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God....The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods" (CCC paragraph 460). What is now becoming apparent is the way those statements fit perfectly with the foundational objective of mysticism: union with God.

The seeds of mysticism have certainly found fertile soil within legalistic Roman Catholicism, but what of the even more oppressive Sharia law that is foundational to Islam? Are Muslims therefore impervious to mystical beliefs?

(To be continued)

TBC

Before moving on to Part 2 in the next thread I will comment about this, for I found it to be quite eye opening and possibly in error.

"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God....The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods" (CCC paragraph 460). So I looked it up, as I encourage you too.

CCC460 http://scborromeo.org/ccc/para/460.htm

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":"For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God." "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."

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Part two of three... which is here ... I have copied and pasted exactly as presented and the only emphasis that would be mine is in blue... or perhaps bolded.

Quote
Mysticism and the Coming World Religion – Part 2
April 11, 2023
Bible Prophecy, Cults and False Religions, End Times, Roman Catholicism
Mysticism and the Coming World Religion – Part 2
By T.A. McMahon

As noted in part one of this series, there is a coming world religion (CWR), and it is advancing rapidly. One of the significant elements that expedites its growth is mysticism, which is a belief system that ultimately rejects teachings that involve objective laws, rules, requirements, obligations, dogmas, doctrines, and the like, in favor of subjective experiences and intuitive feelings. The goal of the CWR (also known as the religion of the Antichrist) is to bring all religions under its patronage and control. Since all religions have doctrines that separate them from one another, even to the point of hostility in some cases, their doctrines must be compromised or altered in order to be acceptable to all — or they must be removed altogether. Mysticism facilitates doctrinal compromise because of its subjective nature. In other words, the objective meaning of a doctrine must give way to one's subjective interpretation, i.e., how one feels about it. When such a belief system is in place, there can be no absolute truth; so-called truth is whatever an individual feels it is. It's in the mind of the beholder.

Religions that are heavily legalistic in their theology must change in order to fit in with the ecumenical CWR. Two such religions are Roman Catholicism and Islam. In part one of this series we documented how the Church of Rome is well along the way of shifting from its highly legalistic system of rules and obligations toward a more mystical process. The Catholic Church has more than a billion followers, and they also must be included in the religion of the Antichrist. Islam, too, has greater than a billion adherents, so it also must become a part of the CWR. However, it is legalistic—and aggressively so — in its doctrine and practices, far more so than any other religion in the world. Consequently, many doubt that it could ever change.

Some have suggested, therefore, that the religion of the Antichrist will be Islam itself. For that to happen, the conversion of the world to Islamic beliefs would follow its historical method, which is at the point of a sword. Although that worked to a large degree in the past, it falls far short of what is necessary to spiritually transform the entire world. Additionally, there are obvious problems for this belief system regarding the coming religion of the Antichrist. The fact that the entire world will worship the Antichrist as God is inconsistent with and opposed by the Muslim worship of Allah. Sharia law, which is the Islamic code of law, is derived from the Qur'an and the Sunnah (Muhammad's teachings and examples). Consequences for disobeying Sharia laws are the harshest among religions. Its rules are overtly abusive regarding women. Furthermore, Islam's collectively intense hatred of Jews and Christians, as well as "all infidels," is diametrically opposed to the CWR's necessary ecumenism. These doctrines of Islam work against its efforts to attract followers to the coming world religion. What then, if anything, is there within Islam that might reconcile the billion-plus Muslims to the religion of the Antichrist, with its mystical underpinnings? The answer is Sufism.

Sufism is the mystical Islamic belief and practice through which Muslims seek to find the truth of divine love and knowledge by way of a direct personal experience with Allah. This is Islam in the throes of experiential and subjective beliefs and practices. Being functionally at odds with Sharia laws and practices, many Sufi practitioners reject the rules of Sharia outright, regarding mysticism as the most direct way to achieve union with Allah. Moreover, where it has been historically practiced throughout the world, Sufism has had no problem coexisting with other religions. This is not the case, as we're well aware, for Sharia-law Islam.

One mystical aspect of Sufism is for its practitioners to put themselves into an ecstatic trance or altered state of consciousness through whirling. These individuals are known as Whirling Dervishes. According to one source, "The hundreds of the Dervish twirling rotations (20-30 per minute) coincide with the theta rhythm in the brain, and the chanting (they repeat the word 'God' [more likely 'Allah,'] about 99 times) makes the dancers dissociate from reality and enter a different state of mind. When the ceremony is over, the dervishes return, side by side, in front of the sheikh [master and guide] and then move to another room to meditate. The physiological goal of the whirling is for the dervish to 'empty' himself of all distractions". It should be obvious that this is just another form of Eastern mystical meditation along with the contemplative forms practiced by more and more professing Christians in the West.

The various exercises of mysticism are similar throughout the world, even where there has been no connection between the cultures or people groups. Sufi meditation and yoga employ the same lotus sitting position and a hasta mudra (with the thumb curled and touching the tip of the forefinger). Sufi whirling has the same effect as the uncontrollable shaking in the Dynamic Meditation practiced by the followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. The Sufi Shaykh is similar to the guru in yoga in terms of the practitioner's absolute submission to him and obedience to the guidance given. In some practices, the Shaykh is a transcended spiritual entity channeled by the meditator. The Encyclopedia of Islam lists a number of manifestations found within the meditation practices of Sufism, e.g., "barking and howling" (MacDonald, D. B. "Darwish (Darwesh)," Encyclopedia of Islam, Second Edition, edited by: P. B. Bearman, Th. Bianquis, C. E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel and W. P. Heinrichs, Brill Online, Augustana, 21 Sept 2009), behavior that was also exhibited through the so-called impartation of the Holy Spirit in places such as the Toronto Airport Vineyard, Pensacola and Lakeland, Florida, International House of Prayer (IHOP), and Bethel Church in Redding, California, among numerous others. These experiences taking place throughout the world should give one more than a hint that spirit entities, contacted through altered states of consciousness and meditation, as well as some people's faith in the false signs-and-wonders methods, have been facilitating Satan's goal of seducing and controlling the consciousness and beliefs of mankind. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1).

Mehmet Oz, better known as Dr. Oz, is someone whom I would describe as the poster boy for everything that I've been noting in this article, which is the acceptance of all religions in the formation of a one-world religion. He is a Muslim — a Sufi Muslim. He is also a New Ager and a national spokesman for Transcendental Meditation or TM. TM is the pseudo-scientific title conjured up by Hindu guru Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. The Maharishi, who came to fame as the spiritual advisor and guru to the Beatles, began teaching meditation in US schools as the Spiritual Regeneration Movement, but it was shut down because the courts realized that it was clearly a religion. The Maharishi simply renamed it The Science of Transcendental Meditation [emphasis added]. This incredibly important alteration was not only successful in promoting his Hinduism in schools, but it also opened the door for other pseudoscientific forms of meditation such as Mindfulness and MindUP, which have been overwhelmingly accepted by our school systems here in the US.

Dr. Oz is a protégé of Oprah Winfrey, who is the leading advocate of New Age beliefs and practices in America. Dr. Oz, a Muslim, is a close second. How can that be? Oz has explained that he grew up in America with parents who were diverse in their Muslim beliefs — one leaned toward Sufism and the other toward Sharia law. "I found myself tugged more to the spiritual side of the religion rather than the legal side of the religion... [Sufism] is the order I resonate to because it's much more mystical... [Sufis] are more concerned with the true connection with God... But when you get caught up in the religious legal aspects of religion, it frustrates me to no end." Dr. Oz also noted with enthusiasm that his wife, a "Protestant," is a follower of the teachings of Emanuel Swedenborg who was heavily involved in mystical experiences (as well as blatant biblical heresies).

Dr. Oz personifies what I have been trying to explain regarding what could attract humanity to the coming subjective, experiential, and feelings-oriented one-world religion. Laws, rules, doctrines, and requirements are out; intuition, feelings, and mystical experiences are in. Dr. Oz's charisma and enthusiasm for the mystical have already deceived millions, Christians and non-Christians alike, toward the direction of the CWR. Rick Warren had Mehmet Oz as a teacher of meditation (read "occult meditation") for the "Daniel Plan" weight loss program that Warren promoted for his Saddleback Church members and his followers.

Changes are taking place in the world — new concepts that are speeding along at a breathtaking rate. Furthermore, these are changes that defy logic and reason. As the lyrics of a modern song plead seductively, "If it feels so right, how can it be wrong?" And an even more recent popular tune exclaims in its title, "Wrong feels so right!" The very idea that something could be considered "wrong" has not only been questioned, but it is now regarded as belonging to the "archaic realm of judgmentalism." Daring to call something wrong has become the social sin of the day, and it's being drowned in the deluge of "let your feelings be your guide."

In the 1977 blockbuster, Star Wars, which was the most financially successful (and therefore influential) movie series in the history of motion pictures, Yoda (as in "Yoga") instructs Luke Skywalker to control the Force with this admonition: "Luke, trust your feelings." Eastern mysticism has gone viral in the West. What were once foreign terms such as karma or guru or deva or mantra have become commonplace. What used to be the Young Men's Christian Association has morphed into the Yoga Mastery Coaching Association. The latest survey has the number of practitioners of yoga at 37 million people in the US, with projections of 80 million over the next few years. Numerous evangelical churches have pushed aside pews in their sanctuaries in order to practice "Christian" Yoga. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20).

The chief reinforcement from the world for the development of the mystical religion of the Antichrist, however, comes from the pseudoscience and religion of psychology. Psychology has duped mankind into accepting psychotherapy as a science when it has no basis in true science. Most of the practice comprises a subjective belief system, i.e., a religion. This is abundantly clear particularly as it pertains to counseling, which is overwhelmingly the largest field of psychology. How, then, does psychotherapy bolster the development of the Antichrist's mystical spirituality? Consider just a few of psychotherapy's Antichrist beliefs:

1) Mankind is innately good. That innate goodness, we are told, is the source of the "true self." Getting back to our true self is accomplished through the psychotherapeutic process of self-actualization. Self-actualization, conjured up by Abraham Maslow, is no different from the Eastern mystical teaching of self-realization — realizing one's godhood.

2) Sin is simply wrong thinking. Sin, we are told, is a construct of judgmental religions imposing their beliefs and practices upon humanity. It is a control mechanism that prohibits mankind from reaching its potential — which, again, is godhood.

3) Being guided by one's feelings is the basis for true wellness. Feelings emanate from one's subconscious, which, we're told, is where one's true self resides. Being true to one's feelings, therefore, is the ultimate path of truth.

Carl Jung, who is highly favored in Christendom, claimed that the comprehension of Eastern mystical thought was essential if Western psychology was to develop. Psychology Today years ago added its own confirmation to the changes we're seeing now by declaring that Eastern mysticism would come to the West through psychology. It has, and it will continue until the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The demonic strategy of mysticism (which is union with God) is to make man believe that he is God. That lie had its beginning in heaven when Lucifer declared, "I will be like the most High (God)" (Isaiah 14:14). His prideful self-delusion turned him from being a "light bringer" (which was what his name meant) to what he is now — God's chief adversary and the ruler of the darkness of this world, Satan. He then introduced the lie of Godhood to humanity by convincing Eve that she could become a god (Genesis 3:5) and this lie will culminate with the Antichrist, "...who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

Of course, the lie of godhood will not be exclusive to Antichrist but rather will be all-inclusive. Universally, it will likely take on the form that we find in the Namaste of Hinduism, where a person "recognizes the divinity of another" by declaring, "I bow down to the god in you," or the grand delusion of Mormonism: "As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become."

That is the religion of the Antichrist. It will continue to increase in various forms until it reaches its fulfillment when the "man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3). As our Lord warned us, the times prior to His return for His church will be days of great spiritual deception (Matthew 24:4). How, then, should believers who are living in these perilous days not only protect themselves spiritually but also be fruitful and productive in order to do His will and look forward to His coming? That will be the subject of Part 3.

TBC

Original Article

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Part three of three... which is here ... I have copied and pasted exactly as presented and the only emphasis that would be mine is in blue... or perhaps bolded.

QuoteMysticism and the Coming World Religion – Part 3
April 11, 2023
Bible Prophecy, Cults and False Religions, End Times, Roman Catholicism
Mysticism and the Coming World Religion, Part 3 – Spiritual Protection
By T. A. McMahon

"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand...Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints." – Ephesians 6:13, 16-18

"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." – Acts:2:42

What lies ahead, according to the Scriptures, regarding the increasing development of mysticism today has been addressed in the previous two articles presented in October and November. That's one of the purposes of biblical prophecy: to have believers "take heed." But being aware of what's coming is only part of what God would have us know. There is also the "what we are to do" part. And the good news is that He enables us by His grace and His Holy Spirit.

How we go about our life in Christ is critical. Whether in peace or persecution, in poverty or prosperity, in sickness or in health, our condition cannot determine a response that keeps us from being fruitful, productive, and pleasing to the Lord. That certainly makes no sense to the world and, sadly, many Christians are confused by it. Yet that's the gist of John 10:10: "I [Jesus] am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." How can persecution, poverty, and sickness equate with an abundant life? That doesn't seem right, but perhaps one's definition of "abundantly" inhibits a correct biblical understanding of the word.

If we're thinking that the abundant life is one filled only with the physical pleasures and provisions of life to the suspension of things not so pleasant or seemingly favorable, we've misunderstood John 10:10, as well as other verses throughout Scripture. That erroneous mindset cannot reconcile the joy indicated in verses such as 2 Corinthians 7:4: "...I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation," and 2 Corinthians 8:2: "How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality." Words such as "tribulation," "trial of affliction," and "deep poverty" seem at odds with "abundance" and may lead a person to a misunderstanding that could play havoc in a believer's life in Christ.

Jesus said, "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets" (Luke 6:22-23). The point of bringing these verses to our attention is because as we draw closer to the return of Jesus Christ, the obstacles, both physical and spiritual, will increase. Many of our brothers and sisters throughout the world are already undergoing horrendous persecution. Where that is limited, such as here in the West, spiritual deception and seduction are running rampant, thereby shipwrecking the faith of multitudes of believers. Ignorance of what the Scriptures teach is a major contributor to said conditions, but there are numerous verses that every biblical Christian needs to understand in order to successfully weather the trials and tribulations that will surely come.

The good news is that God has provided "abundantly" everything a true believer in Jesus needs in order to be fruitful in his or her life in Christ. The Apostle Peter wrote, "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue" (2 Peter 1:3). "All things" means all things, and therefore that must include spiritual protection in the days that Jesus characterized by declaring, "Take heed that no man deceives you," and "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:4, 24). Furthermore, the good news is that the biblical prevention program against being led astray by the cunning deceits of the Adversary is that it is neither complicated nor formidable. Here are the basic elements for preventing being deceived: the Word of God, prayer, and fellowship.

"All things" that the Lord has provided are empowered by the Holy Spirit and enabled through His grace. The preventative process against being spiritually duped isn't complex, but it does demand a willing heart, a love of the truth, and the exercise of discipline. Avoiding being deceived or seduced by the apostasy must begin with the Word of God and our commitment to it, meaning a consistent reading of the Bible – daily. There is no better habit for the man, woman, and child of God. James gives the primary exhortation for that: "Submit yourselves therefore to God." (James 4:7) That must include submitting ourselves to God's instructions. Two things here: we can't submit to instructions we haven't read, and submission involves doing what God has instructed.

God's Word has long been held as a Christian's authority. Today, although many evangelicals profess that they do believe in the authority of Scripture in matters of faith and practice, in actuality they deny them in practice. A young man who was a local leader in promoting the Emerging Church Movement came in to see me one day. Previous to that, I was praying about how I could explain some things to him and perhaps help him to get back on track with God's Word. As we were about to start our conversation, I said that I thought it would be very helpful if we acknowledged to what spiritual authority each of us was submitting. With my Bible squarely in front of him, I said, "This book is my authority. What's your authority?" He looked around, and looked around, as though searching for a response, and then finally said, "My God is bigger than that book." I wasn't shocked by his answer because I've heard it a number of times. Nevertheless, I followed that by responding that he must therefore have other authorities, and who might they be in whom he was trusting in place of God? Needless to say, our "conversation" went nowhere worthwhile after that.

Most Christians tend to hang on to the belief in the authority of God's Word, but functionally they bail out on it. That's because they don't really believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. That's unfortunate. It's also senseless. Why? Because anyone who claims to believe in the authority of God's Word but denies its sufficiency means he doesn't believe it has all the answers that it claims. Therefore, if a person feels he must go elsewhere for answers, he's doing...what? He's looking for another authority.

It should be obvious that not believing in the Bible's sufficiency is a rejection of its authority. Again, the Bible makes it absolutely clear regarding its sufficiency. Second Timothy 3:16-17 proclaims: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." These expressions — "inspiration," being "profitable," giving "instruction" in order to grow in maturity, and being "furnished" (equipped) for every good work — certainly confirm sufficiency. Ephesians 2:10 spells out a major reason for God making His Word sufficient for every believer: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." And by "all things that pertain to life and godliness," which we noted in Peter's second epistle, Scripture is referring to all that is necessary to please God regarding things that have both temporal and eternal value. To what or to whom should a believer in Christ turn for that?

The daily habit of reading the Word of God, recognizing its sufficiency for our growth, maturity, fruitfulness — and then doing what it says by God's enablement — is necessary for protection against spiritual deception. And that must be under-girded by prayer. "In every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God" – Philippians:4:6.

Hopefully, we all realize that when the verse says "every thing," it means everything. A number of years ago when I was in England I was with a couple of believers, guys I hadn't met before, but after spending a few days with them, I was stunned by their approach to what we were doing: they prayed about everything. Although I wasn't used to their zeal for prayer, the way they went about it reflected it as a seamless part of their lives. They prayed at the day's beginning, prior to a drive to a meeting, for the spiritual blessing of the meeting, thanking the Lord at meals, for those we met along the way, and on and on. I found myself singing phrases from the hymn What a Friend We Have in Jesus: All our sins and griefs to bear. What a privilege to carry everything to God in prayer. That experience with them got me both excited and re-invigorated about how important prayer is.

When I came out of the Roman Catholic Church and into a personal relationship with Jesus, it was difficult at first (on my part) to make that relationship truly personal. My early prayer life more closely reflected the rote prayers I practiced for decades when Jesus was hardly a "friend" to me — certainly far less so than His mother. As the evangelical church of late has become enamored with the Church of Rome, many are practicing contemplative prayer, which has been a historic part of Catholicism from the Desert Fathers to the modern-day promotions of mystic priests such as Henri Nouwen and Thomas Merton. Although the claim is that contemplative prayer is more intimate and draws one closer to God, the reality is that it involves hundreds of vain repetitions of phrases and singular words, a process that is condemned in Scripture (Matthew 6:7-8) and renders intelligent communication totally absurd.

Biblical prayer, on the other hand, consists of a believer's personal communication with his Creator. Although fully God, Jesus is also fully Man. He demonstrated the intimate relationship we are to have with Him and with God the Father in numerous ways He drew away from the crowds in order to commune with His Father: "And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone." and at times He "continued all night in prayer" (Matthew 14:23; Luke 6:12). Prayer, according to the Scriptures, is set forth as an imperative for the believer. We are to pray "without ceasing," "always," "exceedingly," "night and day," regarding whatever conditions beset us. We are to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ (Romans 15:30), for our rulers, as well as for our enemies (1 Timothy 2:1-2; Luke 6:27-28). The simple reason that biblical prayer is so important is that we cannot do anything that has eternal value except by God's grace, and that is mostly received through prayer.

Specific to spiritual protection we are exhorted to pray "always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" (Ephesians 6:18). The Apostle Paul asked for prayer "that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men"...declaring that "the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil" (2 Thessalonians 3:1-3). Moreover, and better yet, we have Jesus, who prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail (Luke 22:32), and who now is at the right hand of the Father making "intercession for the saints" (Romans 8:27, 34).

Another necessary element in regard to preventing being seduced or deceived by the increasing apostasy may be the most difficult one to satisfy or maintain. It has to do with fellowship. Scripture declares "Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour. For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up. Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone? And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken" (Ecclesiastes 4:9-12).

Those verses give simple insight regarding how we should go about dealing with these troubling times that aggressively oppose the Bible's instructions for living our lives in a way that is pleasing to the Lord. Fellowship with like-minded brothers and sisters in Christ is a major part of the Lord's instructions, given for our protection, strengthening, and fruitfulness. Ecclesiastes implies that those who disdain fellowship have put themselves into a weak and vulnerable position: "Two are better than one... For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up." A believer who has no one to support him spiritually will find himself in trouble sooner or later. When any of us gets knocked down spiritually, we need a fellow believer to help us up — mentally, emotionally, and, most important, spiritually. As for those who declare, "The Lord is all we need," too often, their subsequent thinking is out of line with God's Word. Jesus said in Luke 6:46, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" We as believers need to "circle our wagons" now and in the days ahead. Our best option is in a church fellowship, supporting the leadership that is steadfast and staying the course of God's Word, and especially — serving the body. When that isn't an option, we must ask the Lord to help us to find another committed believer or believers with whom we may have a Bible study, with whom we can pray, with whom we might minister to one another, encourage one another, and with whom we can gather together for doctrinal discernment and spiritual fortification. "And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken." First and foremost, that third strand must be the Lion of Judah, the Lamb of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus himself.

In summary, the Word of God, prayer, and fellowship are the biblical keys empowered by God's grace for a believer's spiritual protection. By His grace, may we be motivated to make these a priority as we see the spiritual darkness overtake the world around us.

TBC

Original Article

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QuoteIn summary, the Word of God, prayer, and fellowship are the biblical keys empowered by God's grace for a believer's spiritual protection. By His grace, may we be motivated to make these a priority as we see the spiritual darkness overtake the world around us.

Keep it simple. Not rocket science, just a lot of interference from the enemy. The final deception is not rocket science either. Though God will allow strong delusion to empower it. This is only because most have already rejected the truth and chosen to believe lies. When it comes right down to it, though deception is rife and abundant, the final deception only needs to be as simple as the first one. One choice, regarding the rejection of just one commandment of God by almost all, and the harvests of the world will be ripe for reaping.

Just like in the garden. One choice, regarding one command, equaled humanity lifting themselves up above God who gave that command. It started this whole mess. We will either worship God, or we will worship the beast, according to that one choice. It will end, as it began. As the article pointed out, it is an issue of authority. Whose authority will we choose? Because that is who we worship.

This world is waxing old. The bible predicts that eventually mens hearts will be failing them for fear of those things coming upon it. Fear inspires religious fervor. The fear mongering politics we have been witnessing especially concerning Climate Control will increasingly be empowered as the events the scriptures predict increase as well. People, including many nominal "Christians" will get real religious real fast, for the wrong reason. They will agree to legislate some form of worship in response to the fear they are experiencing in relation to offending God. Yet they will not abandon the lies or life styles they have chosen which blatantly contradict God's word. Therefore will strong delusion sent by God Himself overtake them, and they will try to force a form of false worship upon the world as a consequence. Just one choice, worship God as he has commanded, or worship self as humanity will command in contradiction. So be it, as God's word has determined.

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12  nd he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

There are so many wrong premises included in the comments above...

For one thing, none of the comments above include a consideration of the power of the Spirit of God at work in this world.  God has promised concerning His kingdom in this world that it will increase like leaven, like the mustard seed, like the rock which Daniel's prophesies said would increase in size until it filled the whole world.  These are not vain promises.  These promises are polar opposite to the expectations expressed above that there will be a one-world religion that overtakes the globe.  Concerning Christ's kingdom, the promise was "of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace THERE SHALL BE NO END".  America's current moral lapses notwithstanding, God's Spirit is STILL at work, and His kingdom is incrementally increasing.

The problem is that those who read about the Revelation 13 deception and worship of the Beast that will overtake those "in the EARTH" are presuming that this includes the entire globe's citizens.  It doesn't.  Those Revelation predictions were for those in "TES GES", which to John's Jewish audience meant "THE LAND of Israel".   That deception already took place long, long ago in the first century when Satan's "little season" was THEN TAKING PLACE.  Satan's "little season" of ramped-up deception was not going to last for thousands of years.  It lasted until AD 70 when Satan and the entire demonic realm was destroyed by God. 

What deception we have taking place today is that which originates from the human heart itself - and needs no Satanic presence to jump-start it. 

There is pessimism just dripping from this post, with a mindset of fear that is saturating it.  We are not to have a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  God is not in heaven wringing His hands in desperation over the antics of sinful men.  He in incrementally visiting those He intends to receive salvation, and is steadily at work by the Spirit's power building a kingdom that will never cease.  Those who can't see this are looking at the tossing of the waves, and not at the hand of the One standing on the surface of those waves reaching out a reassuring hand to us.  If you keep looking at the waves, you will sink in despair instead of walking on the water in faith. 

   

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Mon May 01, 2023 - 10:06:23
There are so many wrong premises included in the comments above...

For one thing, none of the comments above include a consideration of the power of the Spirit of God at work in this world.  God has promised concerning His kingdom in this world that it will increase like leaven, like the mustard seed, like the rock which Daniel's prophesies said would increase in size until it filled the whole world.  These are not vain promises.  These promises are polar opposite to the expectations expressed above that there will be a one-world religion that overtakes the globe.  Concerning Christ's kingdom, the promise was "of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace THERE SHALL BE NO END".  America's current moral lapses notwithstanding, God's Spirit is STILL at work, and His kingdom is incrementally increasing.

The problem is that those who read about the Revelation 13 deception and worship of the Beast that will overtake those "in the EARTH" are presuming that this includes the entire globe's citizens.  It doesn't.  Those Revelation predictions were for those in "TES GES", which to John's Jewish audience meant "THE LAND of Israel".   That deception already took place long, long ago in the first century when Satan's "little season" was THEN TAKING PLACE.  Satan's "little season" of ramped-up deception was not going to last for thousands of years.  It lasted until AD 70 when Satan and the entire demonic realm was destroyed by God. 

What deception we have taking place today is that which originates from the human heart itself - and needs no Satanic presence to jump-start it. 

There is pessimism just dripping from this post, with a mindset of fear that is saturating it.  We are not to have a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  God is not in heaven wringing His hands in desperation over the antics of sinful men.  He in incrementally visiting those He intends to receive salvation, and is steadily at work by the Spirit's power building a kingdom that will never cease.  Those who can't see this are looking at the tossing of the waves, and not at the hand of the One standing on the surface of those waves reaching out a reassuring hand to us.  If you keep looking at the waves, you will sink in despair instead of walking on the water in faith. 

Nice little fairy tale, but not at all the testimony of scripture. It is not about fear, it is about giving the warnings the New Testament is filled with. Because it is not about us, our fear or not. Perfect love casts out fear. It is about giving fair warning to the world, and the salvation of many a deceived soul.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia:

The revelation of Jesus Christ is to and for the seven churches. Not Israel. Unless of course you mean spiritual Israel, which is the true church.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Mon May 01, 2023 - 10:06:23
There are so many wrong premises included in the comments above...

For one thing, none of the comments above include a consideration of the power of the Spirit of God at work in this world.  God has promised concerning His kingdom in this world that it will increase like leaven, like the mustard seed, like the rock which Daniel's prophesies said would increase in size until it filled the whole world.  These are not vain promises.  These promises are polar opposite to the expectations expressed above that there will be a one-world religion that overtakes the globe.  Concerning Christ's kingdom, the promise was "of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace THERE SHALL BE NO END".  America's current moral lapses notwithstanding, God's Spirit is STILL at work, and His kingdom is incrementally increasing.

The problem is that those who read about the Revelation 13 deception and worship of the Beast that will overtake those "in the EARTH" are presuming that this includes the entire globe's citizens.  It doesn't.  Those Revelation predictions were for those in "TES GES", which to John's Jewish audience meant "THE LAND of Israel".   That deception already took place long, long ago in the first century when Satan's "little season" was THEN TAKING PLACE.  Satan's "little season" of ramped-up deception was not going to last for thousands of years.  It lasted until AD 70 when Satan and the entire demonic realm was destroyed by God. 

What deception we have taking place today is that which originates from the human heart itself - and needs no Satanic presence to jump-start it. 

There is pessimism just dripping from this post, with a mindset of fear that is saturating it.  We are not to have a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  God is not in heaven wringing His hands in desperation over the antics of sinful men.  He in incrementally visiting those He intends to receive salvation, and is steadily at work by the Spirit's power building a kingdom that will never cease.  Those who can't see this are looking at the tossing of the waves, and not at the hand of the One standing on the surface of those waves reaching out a reassuring hand to us.  If you keep looking at the waves, you will sink in despair instead of walking on the water in faith. 

Hi 3W,

Not altogether surprised to find you replying but you are wrong.

Your preterist mindset will not allow you to see what is transforming in front of all of our eyes as they are happening and about to happen and will eventually happen.

But stay tuned for this ride is far from over . As the title of this article says... the Coming World Religion... It has only just begun... and yes,  world meand all of this ball of dirt that we inhabit.

Quote from: Rella on Tue May 02, 2023 - 06:54:20


Hi 3W,

Not altogether surprised to find you replying but you are wrong.

Your preterist mindset will not allow you to see what is transforming in front of all of our eyes as they are happening and about to happen and will eventually happen.

But stay tuned for this ride is far from over . As the title of this article says... the Coming World Religion... It has only just begun... and yes,  world meand all of this ball of dirt that we inhabit.

Hi Rella,

My Preterist views have absolutely nothing to do with my reminding you of scripture's promised progress of the kingdom of God in this world.  You are totally ignoring the symbols which scripture gives (the leaven, the growing rock kingdom, the mustard seed, etc.) that illustrate the prevailing power and the continual growth of Christ's kingdom.  Christ promised that not even the gates of Hades can withstand this - let alone a world culture that would try to enforce a single religion on this globe.  You are not giving the Holy Spirit the proper recognition of His abilities to make trophies for God out of the most despicable characters that have ever practiced evil in this world.

I have made no secret of my beliefs that we are rapidly approaching a transition point for this globe's status.  I have called it "God's Y2K" coming up in 2033, because it will have been 2,000 years since Christ's resurrection in AD 33.  The turmoil in this world and the moral chaos are just setting the stage for the year 2033 when the whole world will be transitioning  into a sort of Sabbath mode - a fallow period of existence which will characterize the majority of the next, final, 7th millennium of fallen man's history on this planet. 

God is going to press the "reset button", as it were, to humble humanity's vain opinion of itself and its accomplishments.  This will be for the betterment of mankind.  Can you honestly say that if the grid goes down, and abortion clinics are unable to operate, that this will not be a true blessing in disguise?

There will be no one-world religion.  Scripture does not predict one for our generation.  As you have surely noticed by now, it is extremely difficult for even two people posting on this website to come to an agreement on their doctrinal stance.  What makes you think that the entire world will be able to unify on a single religious position, if not even two people on this website are on exactly the same page?

Quote from: Amo on Mon May 01, 2023 - 23:03:33
Nice little fairy tale, but not at all the testimony of scripture. It is not about fear, it is about giving the warnings the New Testament is filled with. Because it is not about us, our fear or not. Perfect love casts out fear. It is about giving fair warning to the world, and the salvation of many a deceived soul.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. 4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia:

The revelation of Jesus Christ is to and for the seven churches. Not Israel. Unless of course you mean spiritual Israel, which is the true church.

Hey Amo,

Not really sure what you are referring to by the "fairy tale" comment.  Perhaps, (as RB used to write), you are certain that I am deluded about the Satanic realm being destroyed back in AD 70.   That seems to be the hill that most are willing to die on.  People are addicted to the idea of still having the devil around to whom they can pass the blame for the world's evil - even when God predicted in Isaiah and Ezekiel that Satan would be slain and turned into ashes on the earth almost 2,000 years ago.  The Catholic church has used the threat of Satan like a sword hanging over people's heads for generations.  There's nothing like fear of the demonic spirit world to motivate a deluded congregation into supporting and obeying all the Catholic church's dictates.   

I've no argument that Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia.  What I wrote about Revelation 13 and "those on the earth" (tes ges) being Israelites giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast back then does not contradict this fact about John addressing the 7 churches of Asia. Those 7 churches needed a warning of what was soon "about to" occur in their generation. Satan back then was "about to throw some of them into prison".  They were not to fear what they were"about to suffer" in tribulation for Christ's name for a 10-day term.  From this timely warning to that generation, we can always extrapolate a lesson in how to remain faithful under any kind of persecution ourselves.  However, this hardly means that the exact imminent dangers the 7 Asian churches would soon be experiencing back then were predictions whose fulfillment would be delayed until our generation.  God fulfilled those imminent predictions of tribulation back then, and these particular prophesies are not hanging over our own heads today. 

I'm not even sure why you quoted those verses from Revelation 1 above, since they speak in no uncertain terms that the time for those prophesied events was THEN "AT HAND".  That doesn't mean a 2,000 year delay and still counting until these events would happen.  "At hand" meant that the beginning of those prophesies of future events had already begun taking place in the days of those John was originally addressing.  You don't believe this, so I'm not sure why you are quoting these verses. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue May 02, 2023 - 10:25:05
Hi Rella,

My Preterist views have absolutely nothing to do with my reminding you of scripture's promised progress of the kingdom of God in this world.  You are totally ignoring the symbols which scripture gives (the leaven, the growing rock kingdom, the mustard seed, etc.) that illustrate the prevailing power and the continual growth of Christ's kingdom.  Christ promised that not even the gates of Hades can withstand this - let alone a world culture that would try to enforce a single religion on this globe.  You are not giving the Holy Spirit the proper recognition of His abilities to make trophies for God out of the most despicable characters that have ever practiced evil in this world.

I have made no secret of my beliefs that we are rapidly approaching a transition point for this globe's status.  I have called it "God's Y2K" coming up in 2033, because it will have been 2,000 years since Christ's resurrection in AD 33.  The turmoil in this world and the moral chaos are just setting the stage for the year 2033 when the whole world will be transitioning  into a sort of Sabbath mode - a fallow period of existence which will characterize the majority of the next, final, 7th millennium of fallen man's history on this planet. 

God is going to press the "reset button", as it were, to humble humanity's vain opinion of itself and its accomplishments.  This will be for the betterment of mankind.  Can you honestly say that if the grid goes down, and abortion clinics are unable to operate, that this will not be a true blessing in disguise?

There will be no one-world religion.  Scripture does not predict one for our generation.  As you have surely noticed by now, it is extremely difficult for even two people posting on this website to come to an agreement on their doctrinal stance.  What makes you think that the entire world will be able to unify on a single religious position, if not even two people on this website are on exactly the same page?

3R, this likely should go off in another thread but since few ever involve themselves I will ask you a question.

Was Herod responsible for the  killing of all 2 year olds and under after he realized the Wise Men did not come back with a location to him?

Quote from: Rella on Tue May 02, 2023 - 16:24:12
3R, this likely should go off in another thread but since few ever involve themselves I will ask you a question.

Was Herod responsible for the  killing of all 2 year olds and under after he realized the Wise Men did not come back with a location to him?

Well, that certainly is a question coming out of left field, but that's okay.  I should say from scripture testimony that Herod was the instrument by which the prophecy was fulfilled (in a secondary sense) about Bethlehem's sons dying and Rachel weeping for those children.  Yet the guilt for that murder of the innocents of Bethlehem lies squarely on Herod's shoulders. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue May 02, 2023 - 18:07:53
Well, that certainly is a question coming out of left field, but that's okay.  I should say from scripture testimony that Herod was the instrument by which the prophecy was fulfilled (in a secondary sense) about Bethlehem's sons dying and Rachel weeping for those children.  Yet the guilt for that murder of the innocents of Bethlehem lies squarely on Herod's shoulders.

OK, when do you believe Herod the great died?

And please cite your source.

Britannica says in 4 BC

Never Thirsty says  about 4 BCE

Wiki says 4BCE

Professor John A. Cramer argues that Herod the Great most likely died shortly after the lunar eclipse of December 29, 1 B.C., rather than that of March 13, 4 B.C., which, as Cramer points out, is the eclipse traditionally associated with Josephus's description in Jewish Antiquities 17.6.4

Jaime gaave a link that says it is believed to be 4 BC

https://edition.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/conditions/01/25/king.herod/

QuoteScholars believe Herod died in the year 4 BC. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus recorded details of his death, telling of symptoms that included intense itching, intestinal pain, shortness of breath, convulsions, and gangrene of the genitalia. Hirschmann used these texts to make his diagnosis.

So what say you? Yes, I am heading somewhere.[/size]

Quote from: Rella on Tue May 02, 2023 - 19:21:39

OK, when do you believe Herod the great died?

And please cite your source.

Britannica says in 4 BC

Never Thirsty says  about 4 BCE

Wiki says 4BCE

Professor John A. Cramer argues that Herod the Great most likely died shortly after the lunar eclipse of December 29, 1 B.C., rather than that of March 13, 4 B.C., which, as Cramer points out, is the eclipse traditionally associated with Josephus's description in Jewish Antiquities 17.6.4

Jaime gaave a link that says it is believed to be 4 BC

https://edition.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/conditions/01/25/king.herod/
So what say you? Yes, I am heading somewhere.

4 BC more than likely.  Source is Ussher's "Annals of the World".  He is not always on target with his dates, but in this case, I believe he is correct.  And I'm sure you have a certain reason for bringing this up.

Be careful so that you are not left behind.

QuoteMy Preterist views have absolutely nothing to do with my reminding you of scripture's promised progress of the kingdom of God in this world.  You are totally ignoring the symbols which scripture gives (the leaven, the growing rock kingdom, the mustard seed, etc.) that illustrate the prevailing power and the continual growth of Christ's kingdom.

The pot calling the kettle black. You are totally ignoring gobs and gobs of scripture concerning the details of the above all along the way to the end. Not to mention perfectly setting yourself up for the final deception. You will no doubt be part of the false and apostate "Christianity" which will be an intricate part of the final persecuting beast of biblical prophecy. As false and apostate "Christianity" was a major factor in one of the previous persecuting beasts as well.

Tell us if you do not mind, how far along are we in this progressive kingdom of God in this world? Just exactly who is part of this progressive kingdom at present? If it will entail the whole world before Christ returns, there must already be many churches, religions, and or organizations that are a growing part of it. Who are they? By their fruits we should be able to identify them, should we not? Please do. Thank you.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue May 02, 2023 - 19:58:59
4 BC more than likely.  Source is Ussher's "Annals of the World".  He is not always on target with his dates, but in this case, I believe he is correct.  And I'm sure you have a certain reason for bringing this up.

, Yes I do have a reason for bringing it up. I believe an important one. Just bear with me a bit longer.

Just another question or two before I get to the crux of things....

I had agreed with the 4BC dating of Herods death until further investigating truly has me nearly convinced that 1BC was more likely.

From :https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2020/12/timeline-star-of-bethlehem-herods-death-jesus-birth.html

It is suggested...

a) Historians have primarily replied on the Jewish historian Josephus (37 – c. 100) to calculate this "death date "of 4 BC: particularly a chronology developed by Protestant theologian and historian Emil Schürer in his 1891 book, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ.

     i) Josephus stated (Antiquities 17.6.4) that a lunar eclipse was observed right before Herod's death. This is usually ascribed
     to an eclipse dated March 13, 4 BC. But it's been observed that this was very late, and a minor partial eclipse. There was
     another much more visible lunar eclipse on 29 December, 1 BC (just three days before "AD" begins).

     ii) Josephus (Antiquities 17.9.3, The Jewish War 2.1.3) also noted that Herod died between a "fast" (probably Yom Kippur)
     and the Jewish Passover. These are our two big historical clues. The eclipse 29 December, 1 BC is a plausible (though not
     proven) candidate, all things considered.

     iii) But  there are also ongoing scholarly disputes about the manuscripts of Josephus. Twenty-seven texts of Antiquities from
     before 1544 indicate that Herod died later than usually supposed: in 1 BC or maybe 1 AD.

     iv) This would "move" the date of Jesus' birth to 3 or 2 BC: which is the most common date stated by many early Church
     fathers, such as Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus of Rome, Eusebius of Caesarea, and
     Origen. (this is important which will be explained quite soon)

b) Another argument that can be made is the date of coins issued by Herod the Great's successors. The evidence shows that none can be dated before 1 AD. These coins were controlled by Rome and only after Herod the Great's death could such coins be issued.

Now I will stop, for the moment with the references and ask you if you believe Jesus was born in 5 or 6 BC or 2or 3 BC as this
suggests?

There is an important reason that this matters.

2nd question for this morning is what you, personally... (what is commonly accepted)... believe that Jesus was tried at 6AM on Friday. Crucified at noon on Friday and Died 3PM on Friday. and before 2 full days could be counted was found that his tomb.... early in the morning... on Sunday was empty. (That not only is not 3 days , it does not track with what Jesus himself said that "for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.)

Just a small PS.

If you are dogmatic about the 4BC... that also works. Provided you also believe that Jesus could have been 33 1/2 years old at crucifixion tie... coupled with the couple of commentaries I have read that suggest Jesus was born just before Herod's death in 4BC. Suggesting that 4BC would have been the date of His birth. 

from: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/herods-death-jesus-birth-and-a-lunar-eclipse/
Both Luke and Matthew mention Jesus' birth as occurring during Herod's reign (Luke 1:5; Matthew 2:1). Josephus relates Herod's death to a lunar eclipse. This is generally regarded as a reference to a lunar eclipse in 4 B.C. Therefore it is often said that Jesus was born in 4 B.C.

Quote from: Amo on Wed May 03, 2023 - 06:28:20
The pot calling the kettle black. You are totally ignoring gobs and gobs of scripture concerning the details of the above all along the way to the end. Not to mention perfectly setting yourself up for the final deception. You will no doubt be part of the false and apostate "Christianity" which will be an intricate part of the final persecuting beast of biblical prophecy. As false and apostate "Christianity" was a major factor in one of the previous persecuting beasts as well.

Tell us if you do not mind, how far along are we in this progressive kingdom of God in this world? Just exactly who is part of this progressive kingdom at present? If it will entail the whole world before Christ returns, there must already be many churches, religions, and or organizations that are a growing part of it. Who are they? By their fruits we should be able to identify them, should we not? Please do. Thank you.

Amo, I am certainly not ignoring those "gobs and gobs of scripture".  I just pay careful attention to the time-relevant terms which John applied to the fulfillment of all those prophesies, which you are not doing.  Those time-relevant terms which were applied to all of those unsealed, revealed visions meant that they would be fulfilled in John's generation, by the close of the first-century "time of the end" which concluded in AD 70.  That was the end of Daniel's people, when the power of the holy people was crushed, as Daniel 12:7 predicted.  Only the sealed-up prophesies which the seven thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4 were reserved for later generations after the close of AD 70, some of which apply to us and our future. 

There will be no "final persecuting beast of biblical prophecy" (which you are expecting for our future), because, long ago, the power behind all those beast kingdoms has already been simultaneously crushed to dust blowing on the wind (as Daniel 2:35 predicted).  The power behind these destroyed beast kingdoms has been replaced by the growth of Christ's stone kingdom, which is incrementally increasing in this world at present.  You, Amo, are part of that stone kingdom, as am I, since we are called those "living stones" built upon the "chief cornerstone" which is Christ. 

This kingdom of Christ which was promised to "fill the whole earth" in Daniel 2:35 does not necessarily mean that the entire world's civic organizations and governments will become identified as Christian.  God gives His salvation to individuals, not corporations.   Not all humanity is promised to become a child of God.  Some are bastards, and not sons.  Some are goats and not sheep.  There will always be some "tares" in comparison to the majority of the "wheat" harvest.   For Christ's kingdom to "fill the earth" means that the knowledge or awareness of Christ's gospel will permeate the globe - not that all governments or people will universally become Christian. 

It will take Christ's final return in the fall of 3033 to purge human evil out of this planet entirely.  God has already purged Satanic and demonic evil out of this world back in AD 70, and in the final return of Christ, the presence of humanity's evil will also come to an end by being utterly destroyed.

Quote from: Rella on Wed May 03, 2023 - 06:40:21
, Yes I do have a reason for bringing it up. I believe an important one. Just bear with me a bit longer.

Just another question or two before I get to the crux of things....

I had agreed with the 4BC dating of Herods death until further investigating truly has me nearly convinced that 1BC was more likely.

From :https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2020/12/timeline-star-of-bethlehem-herods-death-jesus-birth.html

It is suggested...

a) Historians have primarily replied on the Jewish historian Josephus (37 – c. 100) to calculate this "death date "of 4 BC: particularly a chronology developed by Protestant theologian and historian Emil Schürer in his 1891 book, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ.

     i) Josephus stated (Antiquities 17.6.4) that a lunar eclipse was observed right before Herod's death. This is usually ascribed
     to an eclipse dated March 13, 4 BC. But it's been observed that this was very late, and a minor partial eclipse. There was
     another much more visible lunar eclipse on 29 December, 1 BC (just three days before "AD" begins).

     ii) Josephus (Antiquities 17.9.3, The Jewish War 2.1.3) also noted that Herod died between a "fast" (probably Yom Kippur)
     and the Jewish Passover. These are our two big historical clues. The eclipse 29 December, 1 BC is a plausible (though not
     proven) candidate, all things considered.

     iii) But  there are also ongoing scholarly disputes about the manuscripts of Josephus. Twenty-seven texts of Antiquities from
     before 1544 indicate that Herod died later than usually supposed: in 1 BC or maybe 1 AD.

     iv) This would "move" the date of Jesus' birth to 3 or 2 BC: which is the most common date stated by many early Church
     fathers, such as Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus of Rome, Eusebius of Caesarea, and
     Origen. (this is important which will be explained quite soon)

b) Another argument that can be made is the date of coins issued by Herod the Great's successors. The evidence shows that none can be dated before 1 AD. These coins were controlled by Rome and only after Herod the Great's death could such coins be issued.

Now I will stop, for the moment with the references and ask you if you believe Jesus was born in 5 or 6 BC or 2or 3 BC as this
suggests?

There is an important reason that this matters.

2nd question for this morning is what you, personally... (what is commonly accepted)... believe that Jesus was tried at 6AM on Friday. Crucified at noon on Friday and Died 3PM on Friday. and before 2 full days could be counted was found that his tomb.... early in the morning... on Sunday was empty. (That not only is not 3 days , it does not track with what Jesus himself said that "for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.)

Just a small PS.

If you are dogmatic about the 4BC... that also works. Provided you also believe that Jesus could have been 33 1/2 years old at crucifixion tie... coupled with the couple of commentaries I have read that suggest Jesus was born just before Herod's death in 4BC. Suggesting that 4BC would have been the date of His birth. 

from: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/herods-death-jesus-birth-and-a-lunar-eclipse/
Both Luke and Matthew mention Jesus' birth as occurring during Herod's reign (Luke 1:5; Matthew 2:1). Josephus relates Herod's death to a lunar eclipse. This is generally regarded as a reference to a lunar eclipse in 4 B.C. Therefore it is often said that Jesus was born in 4 B.C.

To me, pinpointing the date of Jesus' birth is not a critical one.  Ecclesiastes 7 tells us that the day of a man's death is better than the day of one's birth, and that the end of a matter is better than its beginning.  That would indicate that pinpointing Christ's crucifixion date when He said "It is finished" (and His subsequent resurrection) would actually be a more vital matter to identify a dated year.

That would mean it is more critical to get the correct date of Christ Jesus' coming unto His own people, manifested as "Messiah the Prince" from the Daniel 9:25 prophecy.  This "coming" unto His own people was supposed to be 483 years after the (454 BC) decree to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem, complete with walls and the street in front of the temple.   The year of this "coming" of Jesus being publicly manifested to the people of Israel at the beginning of His miraculous public ministry was the year AD 30.  Three and a half years later, in the middle of the 70th "week" of years, Jesus was "cut off" out of the land of the living, and then bodily resurrected 3 days and 3 nights later.  Yes, He was bodily resurrected on what we would call Saturday just at sunset, fulfilling the prediction that Christ's body lying in the grave would match Jonah's experience, who was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish. 

Luke tells us that Christ "began to be about 30 years old" at His baptism.  This baptism of Christ took place around AD 26/27.  About three years later in AD 30, Jesus' public miraculous ministry began, fulfilling the beginning year of the 70th "week" of years.

We can absolutely confirm that AD 30 was the beginning year of Christ's ministry (Daniel's beginning of the 70th "week" of years) by looking at John 2:20.  At this first Passover of Christ's public ministry, the Jews said to Jesus, "Forty six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"  If we count backward in time 46 years when Herod began the lavish renovations of the temple in 17 BC, this means AD 30 was the first year of Christ's public ministry (the beginning of Daniel's 70th "week" of years).  This is absolutely essential to pin down, because Christ had to fulfill exactly the timing of Daniel's prophecy about the prophesied year for the coming of "Messiah the Prince", or He would have proved to be a false Messiah, and we need not believe a single thing He said. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed May 03, 2023 - 11:15:30
To me, pinpointing the date of Jesus' birth is not a critical one.

Yes, it is IF it alters one whit of your timeline for 2033, which I believe it does.

I am just going to jump to it and not let it hang til the end of this.

Nisan14 ... the date Jesus was crucified... ( see below) ... in 33 AD was on a Friday.

That is impossible. If you trust what Jesus himself had said.

He had to be most likely crucified in 30 AD on a Wednesday.

And that is why the date of his birth is important... if you  believe that age 33 was a fairly accurate age. And that Herod Died in 1 or 2 BC....

Even if he died in 4BC that date can be made to work also.

Repeating: things on Herod's death.

a) Historians have primarily replied on the Jewish historian Josephus (37 – c. 100) to calculate this "death date "of 4 BC: particularly a chronology developed by Protestant theologian and historian Emil Schürer in his 1891 book, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Jesus Christ.

     i) Josephus stated (Antiquities 17.6.4) that a lunar eclipse was observed right before Herod's death. This is usually ascribed
     to an eclipse dated March 13, 4 BC. But it's been observed that this was very late, and a minor partial eclipse. There was
     another much more visible lunar eclipse on 29 December, 1 BC (just three days before "AD" begins).

     ii) Josephus (Antiquities 17.9.3, The Jewish War 2.1.3) also noted that Herod died between a "fast" (probably Yom Kippur)
     and the Jewish Passover. These are our two big historical clues. The eclipse 29 December, 1 BC is a plausible (though not
     proven) candidate, all things considered.

     iii) But  there are also ongoing scholarly disputes about the manuscripts of Josephus. Twenty-seven texts of Antiquities from
     before 1544 indicate that Herod died later than usually supposed: in 1 BC or maybe 1 AD.

     iv) This would "move" the date of Jesus' birth to 3 or 2 BC: which is the most common date stated by many early Church
     fathers, such as Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus of Rome, Eusebius of Caesarea, and
     Origen. (this is important which will be explained quite soon)

b) Another argument that can be made is the date of coins issued by Herod the Great's successors. The evidence shows that none can be dated before 1 AD. These coins were controlled by Rome and only after Herod the Great's death could such coins be issued.

Now why is this important....

Please try to follow this.

Nisan 14: after 6PM, Jesus was with his 12 in the upper room having what we commonly call "His Last Supper.

At midnight Jesus was arrested and 12 hours later he was crucified.  Shy of 18 hours after his arrest he was buried. and it
was still Nisan 14.

Everyone make a big thing about his crucifixion and the Sabbath.

Well... there is no more important Sabbath then Passover and the week Jesus was crucified there were 2 Sabbaths .

I am not going into any in-depth talks of prep days, and the do's and don'ts surrounding those important days... just
suffice it to say that it was all done appropriately.

NOW you must be wondering about why the importance of this!!!

IT IS IMPORTANT BECAAUSE JESUS WAS ARRESTED, TRIED, CRUCIFIED AND BURIED ON NISAN 14 AND THE DAY OF THIS WAS  WEDNESDAY30 CE (Or AD, as I prefer) That is the only day gets us 3 full days and nights before the discovery of the empty tomb as Jesus, Himself, specified.

Please just keep this in mind as I go back to Jesus and his inability to lie. And to his Matt 12:40 statement for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. I dont care 9f you call it a metaphor, parable, or pipedream... the fact is that Jesus wanted this to be known as a point of importance.

You know the number 3 is an important number in God's plans.

To keep this from becoming so long you wont read it lets condense what this means so far...

Jesus was dead and in the grave at the beginning of the 15th day (Thursday) of Nissan. Using the timeline Jesus provided of three full days and nights, Thursday night was the first complete day, Friday night was the second complete day and Saturday night was the third complete day. If we correctly interpret the timeline provided by the four gospels, it is not possible for Jesus to have been crucified on Friday as commonly thought, but He was crucified and buried on Wednesday.

I can readily provide a number of links and tables of dates to support this but for times sake will not do so now.

WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT.

Because you have consistently said  2033.

And it needs to be adjusted to 2030.

No... I am not saying I am a believer in this of yours, but if, by chance you could be right you need the right year.

That year is 2030.


BTW... I do have one chart among others that copied fairly well so I posted it here.


Proleptic Gregorian date

Day of the week

Nisan 14, 3780 A.M.   March 25, 20 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3781 A.M.   April 12, 21 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3782 A.M.   April 2, 22 A.D.      Saturday
Nisan 14, 3783 A.M.   March 22, 23 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3784 A.M.   April 10, 24 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3785 A.M.   March 31, 25 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3786 A.M.   March 20, 26 A.D.   Friday
Nisan 14, 3787 A.M.   April 7, 27 A.D.           Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3788 A.M.   March 27, 28 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3789 A.M.   April 14, 29 A.D.   Saturday
Nisan 14, 3790 A.M.   April 3, 30 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3791 A.M.   March 24, 31 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3792 A.M.   April 12, 32 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3793 A.M.   April 1, 33 A.D.           Friday
Nisan 14, 3794 A.M.   March 20, 34 A.D.   Monday
Nisan 14, 3795 A.M.   April 9, 35 A.D.           Monday
Nisan 14, 3796 A.M.   March 28, 36 A.D.   Friday
Nisan 14, 3797 A.M.   March 18, 37 A.D.   Wednesday
Nisan 14, 3798 A.M.   April  5, 38 A.D.           Monday
Nisan 14, 3799 A.M.   March 25, 39 A.D.   Friday
Nisan 14, 3800 A.M.   April 13, 40 A.D.   Friday

Quote from: Rella on Wed May 03, 2023 - 18:01:56
Nisan14 ... the date Jesus was crucified... ( see below) ... in 33 AD was on a Friday.

The church-father Eusebius said that Jesus died in about 45 AD.  That's usually dismissed as a weird error from someone who was usually very meticulous with his information, but what if he was right?

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu May 04, 2023 - 00:45:56
The church-father Eusebius said that Jesus died in about 45 AD.  That's usually dismissed as a weird error from someone who was usually very meticulous with his information, but what if he was right?

Well, I have been looking for what he said but have not found it yet.

I also cannot find a chart or reference to when Passover was in 45 AD to know the day of the week it fell on.

I doubt 45AD myself because it would know the accepted age of Jesus at 33 out of consideration....

But now.... I am on another search....

I did just find this timeline AD 30 to AD 70

https://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/TIME%20LINE%2030-70%20AD.htm

Quote from: Rella on Thu May 04, 2023 - 07:31:17
Well, I have been looking for what he said but have not found it yet.

I also cannot find a chart or reference to when Passover was in 45 AD to know the day of the week it fell on.

I doubt 45AD myself because it would know the accepted age of Jesus at 33 out of consideration....

But now.... I am on another search....

I did just find this timeline AD 30 to AD 70

https://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/TIME%20LINE%2030-70%20AD.htm

Rella, Jesus's age at time of death or His date of birth is actually immaterial to any kind of prophetic fulfillment.  The critical information that needs to align with prophecy is the actual year of Jesus' crucifixion, as well as the year His earthly public ministry began.  The years for these events were precisely predicted by Daniel 9.  If Christ did not fulfill those two events in the very year they were prophesied to take place, then He was not Daniel's true "Messiah the Prince" that should come. 

So it is not necessary to go to great lengths to prove what year Christ was born, when Herod died, etc.  Those are what we could consider "fun facts", but there is no prophecy linked to the actual year for those events that would be absolutely necessary to pin down to a specific year.

The chart you just submitted dating Christ's crucifixion at AD 30 does not align with 3 scriptural events which relate to that event, as follows: 

#1)  The beginning of Daniel's 70th "week" of years, when "Messiah the Prince" would come and be manifested to His people.  John 2:20 gives us the information that this very first Passover which Jesus was attending at the beginning of His public ministry was 46 YEARS after Herod had begun His expensive renovation of the temple back in 17 BC.  That tells us this first year of Christ's public ministry was in AD 30.  This AD 30 year is exactly 483 years (the end of Daniel's 69 "weeks" of years) after the specific decree which Daniel mentioned regarding the restoration and building of Jerusalem, including its walls and the street in front of the temple.  This particular decree was given in the 20th year of Artaxerxes's reign (454 BC), which reign began with a co-regency Artaxerxes shared with his father starting in 474 BC. 

The fulfillment of the beginning of this 70th "week" was announced by Christ in Mark 1:14-15, "Now after that John was put in prison,"(in AD 30) "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and Saying, The time is fulfilled," (the beginning of Daniel's 70th week)  "and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

#2)  Daniel prophesied that Messiah the coming Prince would confirm the covenant with many of Daniel's people for that last "one week" of years.  During that 70th "week", the Messiah would be "cut off" (out of the land of the living).  Also, in the middle of that 70th "week", He would cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by His crucifixion, once for all providing the last sacrifice that was needed to secure our salvation).    So, if Christ's public ministry began back in AD 30, then 3-1/2 years later He would have to be "cut off" by His crucifixion in AD 33. 

#3)  The Revelation 20 millennium of a literal thousand years was supposed to be "finished", "fulfilled", and "expired" at the time the "First resurrection" occurred.  That "First resurrection" event was "Christ the First-fruits" and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the grave that day - in AD 33.  A literal thousand years prior in 968/967 BC, Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down.  The placement of this foundation stone began a literal thousand years of a God-sanctioned, physical temple which foreshadowed the coming spiritual temple and its "chief cornerstone" which Christ became once He was resurrected.  We can confirm this date of 968/967 BC by referring to the Tyrian list of kings and their regnal dates (King Hiram in particular who helped Solomon begin temple construction).

Rella, you have pointed out that the Passover charts list only AD 30 as having a Wednesday evening burial of Christ, fulfilling the 3 days and 3 nights when Christ would be in the grave until Saturday evening.  Yes, I agree that the 3 days and 3 nights were required to fulfill Christ's prediction.  The only thing I can say is that the charts which list this information are in direct opposition to the scriptures and the prophecies that I listed above that point to AD 33 as Christ's crucifixion year.  The questions would then be, "Are there errors in the tables of Passover dates for those years?"  Or "Are the dates indicated by the prophecies in error?" 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu May 04, 2023 - 09:38:03
Rella, Jesus's age at time of death or His date of birth is actually immaterial to any kind of prophetic fulfillment.  The critical information that needs to align with prophecy is the actual year of Jesus' crucifixion, as well as the year His earthly public ministry began.  The years for these events were precisely predicted by Daniel 9.  If Christ did not fulfill those two events in the very year they were prophesied to take place, then He was not Daniel's true "Messiah the Prince" that should come. 

So it is not necessary to go to great lengths to prove what year Christ was born, when Herod died, etc.  Those are what we could consider "fun facts", but there is no prophecy linked to the actual year for those events that would be absolutely necessary to pin down to a specific year.

The chart you just submitted dating Christ's crucifixion at AD 30 does not align with 3 scriptural events which relate to that event, as follows: 

#1)  The beginning of Daniel's 70th "week" of years, when "Messiah the Prince" would come and be manifested to His people.  John 2:20 gives us the information that this very first Passover which Jesus was attending at the beginning of His public ministry was 46 YEARS after Herod had begun His expensive renovation of the temple back in 17 BC.  That tells us this first year of Christ's public ministry was in AD 30.  This AD 30 year is exactly 483 years (the end of Daniel's 69 "weeks" of years) after the specific decree which Daniel mentioned regarding the restoration and building of Jerusalem, including its walls and the street in front of the temple.  This particular decree was given in the 20th year of Artaxerxes's reign (454 BC), which reign began with a co-regency Artaxerxes shared with his father starting in 474 BC. 

The fulfillment of the beginning of this 70th "week" was announced by Christ in Mark 1:14-15, "Now after that John was put in prison,"(in AD 30) "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and Saying, The time is fulfilled," (the beginning of Daniel's 70th week)  "and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

#2)  Daniel prophesied that Messiah the coming Prince would confirm the covenant with many of Daniel's people for that last "one week" of years.  During that 70th "week", the Messiah would be "cut off" (out of the land of the living).  Also, in the middle of that 70th "week", He would cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by His crucifixion, once for all providing the last sacrifice that was needed to secure our salvation).    So, if Christ's public ministry began back in AD 30, then 3-1/2 years later He would have to be "cut off" by His crucifixion in AD 33. 

#3)  The Revelation 20 millennium of a literal thousand years was supposed to be "finished", "fulfilled", and "expired" at the time the "First resurrection" occurred.  That "First resurrection" event was "Christ the First-fruits" and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the grave that day - in AD 33.  A literal thousand years prior in 968/967 BC, Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down.  The placement of this foundation stone began a literal thousand years of a God-sanctioned, physical temple which foreshadowed the coming spiritual temple and its "chief cornerstone" which Christ became once He was resurrected.  We can confirm this date of 968/967 BC by referring to the Tyrian list of kings and their regnal dates (King Hiram in particular who helped Solomon begin temple construction).

Rella, you have pointed out that the Passover charts list only AD 30 as having a Wednesday evening burial of Christ, fulfilling the 3 days and 3 nights when Christ would be in the grave until Saturday evening.  Yes, I agree that the 3 days and 3 nights were required to fulfill Christ's prediction.  The only thing I can say is that the charts which list this information are in direct opposition to the scriptures and the prophecies that I listed above that point to AD 33 as Christ's crucifixion year.  The questions would then be, "Are there errors in the tables of Passover dates for those years?"  Or "Are the dates indicated by the prophecies in error?"

3Rs,

First of all... you say... "Rella, you have pointed out that the Passover charts list only AD 30 as having a Wednesday evening burial of Christ, fulfilling the 3 days and 3 nights when Christ would be in the grave until Saturday evening. "

There is no where in anything that you have ever read that shows there was a single ounce of evidence that Christ stayed in the grave one second after the stone was rolled to close him in.

Last of all...you say..."Are there errors in the tables of Passover dates for those years?"  Or "Are the dates indicated by the prophecies in error? And I have to say more likely prophesies... or more precisely the interpretation of such.

I do not see Jesus starting his ministry in 30AD... I say he started it at age 30.

This important timeline of Jesus ministry date is 42 days before the calculated 30th birthday of Jesus. Jesus baptism date and year is 480 years from the completion of the Jerusalem Wall in 455 BC according to Nehemiah 6:15. And...Jesus was crucified on Passover three and a half years later in 30 AD.

Now, I do have an interesting article about this that only will muddy the water more in comprehension.... so will require more then one reading.... I highly recommend reading and studying this. It is far too long to post here but. The following is a quote from it.

From the Jerusalem Post... ( I subscribe) ... https://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Truth-Beyond-Price/Holy-Hebrew-Arithmetic-What-Age-was-Jesus-when-he-became-Teacher-Priest-542343

The gist of this article starts with

Quote
The Bible says that a priest had to be 30 years old before he took up the mature, senior office of priest, Num 4:3. "From thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old..." (Some other junior posts could start when men reached twenty.)
"Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age," says Luke in 3:21.
But if Jesus was born in the autumn of 3 BCE and died at Passover 30 CE after 3 1/2 years mission, how could he be 30 when he started the mission? That would mean he started his mission in the autumn of 26 CE. Are there 30 years between 3BCE and 26CE?

And then it ends with...

So how does this apply to Christ?
According to the calculation made by Dr Ernest L Martin in his book, The Star that astonished the World, Jesus was born at the beginning of the first of Tishri at the start of the Feast of Trumpets, 3 BCE.
So we can calculate:
3 BCE to 2BCE is one year.
3 BCE to 1 BCE is two years.
Then we have to remember that there was no year zero. The next year is 1 CE.
3 BCE to 1 CE is 3 years.
3 BCE to 6 CE is 8 years.
3 BCE to 26 CE is 28 years!
So how could Jesus be reckoned to be 30?
Firstly, we should note that Jesus was born at the beginning of Trumpets -- at night. Hebrew days begin at sunset and end at sunset. There were shepherds in the field at night who announced that he had been born in their crib in their tents. (Jesus, James Joseph chapter 15)
So what part of the whole day of the Feast of Trumpets was the critical time that marked the king's reign and distinguished it from the previous king?
The clue is in the name -- Feast of Trumpets. It was the time when the trumpets sounded. If this was midday, then if the king B died before the trumpet he was without the regnal year.  If he took office only just before and died a few seconds after the trumpet he had reigned a whole year!
So we must count the time before the trumpets of 3 BCE as the first year of Jesus's life. The second year started with the Trumpet and continued to the next first of Tishri in 2 BCE.
So the calculation should read as following:
Birth to the time of Trumpets 3 BCE year one
3 BCE to 2 BCE 2 years.
3 BCE to 1 BCE is three years.
3 BCE to 26 CE is 29 years.
But aren't we still a year short of 30?
That's when we need to look at the gospel of Luke again. Luke 3:23 says:
"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being according to Torah law (Greek does not mean 'supposed' as Jerome mistranslated it into Latin for doctrinal purposes. The word 'enomizeto' means regulated and according to nomos, Hebrew or Torah Law, literally legalized)  son of Joseph, ... "
Jesus was beginning his thirtieth year. Come the1st of Tishri, this would all be recognized as his year.  Under Hebrew law he was entitled to count this year. As Jesus was alive on this next feast of Trumpets, we can say with Luke Jesus was beginning to be thirty years and fully qualified to be priest.

AND

This is presents things that are NOT covered in the four corners of the bible... such as

QuoteBut if Jesus was born in the autumn of 3 BCE and died at Passover 30 CE after 3 1/2 years mission, how could he be 30 when he started the mission? That would mean he started his mission in the autumn of 26 CE. Are there 30 years between 3BCE and 26CE?

So I maintain that Jesus was crucified in 30AD.... on a Wednesday....

But as you maintain it was 33AD ... on a Friday... and you agree that ..."Yes, I agree that the 3 days and 3 nights were required to fulfill Christ's prediction." HOW DO YOU MAKE  THAT WORK WITH FRIDAY AS THE CONSIDERATION?

Even if you were to count the full 3 1/2 years after the year 30AD when you see Jesus starting his ministry.. that arguably could take things to 34AD Nisan 14, 3794 A.M.   March 20, 34 A.D.   Monday That is worse for you cannot get 3 days and nights going to Sunday from then either.

He was crucified in 30 AD. It fits, it works. I wish I had time right now... and maybe I will find some to take your prophesy info and see what else I can find about it regarding the counting of time.[/size]

Rella, I maintain that Christ was crucified and buried on Wednesday in AD 33, with His body lying 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, to rise from the dead on Saturday at evening.  Does this contradict the charts? Yes, and I don't care.  If it comes to a choice between either a man-made chart or having those scripture prophecies fulfilled at certain required years on the calendar, I will pick the scriptural prophetic time markers every time. 

I've no problem with Christ needing to be at least a required 30 years old at the time He began His ministry, in order to be called "Rabbi", or to be qualified to become a priest.  But Luke does NOT say that Christ began to be about 30 at the beginning of His ministry.  He says that this was Christ's age at His BAPTISM, which was in AD 26/27 depending on your source. 

Christ did not immediately begin His miraculous public ministry that year at His baptism.  He spent another approximate 3 years until AD 30 before He began choosing His disciples and performed His first miracle at Cana, causing His disciples to believe on Him (John 1:35-2:11).  We know this because immediately after His baptism in AD 26/27, Christ was driven by the Spirit into the wilderness for 40 days.  Once that period of testing was over, Satan "left Him for a SEASON" (kairos - which indicates a specific appointed period of time).  I maintain the length of that "season" was the approximate 3 years before Christ began His public miraculous ministry in AD 30; the same year of AD 30 when John was thrown into prison, and when Christ announced that "The time is fulfilled..." - in AD 30. 

This would have made Jesus 33 plus years old at the beginning of His ministry in AD 30 - which was 46 years after Herod's temple renovations had begun back in 17 BC.   Christ's age at death would have been somewhere around 36-1/2 in the year AD 33, a year which coincides with Daniel's prophecy of the middle of the 70th week of years (which began all the way back in 454 BC).  AD 33 was also the year which matched the end of the literal thousand-year millennium (which began all the way back in 968/ 967 BC).  It also fits perfectly with the ending year AD 37 of Daniel's 70th week, when Paul received his temple vision in Jerusalem, and was told to leave Jerusalem and switch his evangelistic priorities over to the Gentiles.  Paul's commission by God in AD 37 to go to the Gentiles ended Daniel's last 70th week when the covenant had been confirmed with Daniel's people. 

Quote from: Rella on Thu May 04, 2023 - 07:31:17
Well, I have been looking for what he said but have not found it yet.

I also cannot find a chart or reference to when Passover was in 45 AD to know the day of the week it fell on.

I doubt 45AD myself because it would know the accepted age of Jesus at 33 out of consideration....

But now.... I am on another search....

I did just find this timeline AD 30 to AD 70

https://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/TIME%20LINE%2030-70%20AD.htm

I made a mistake.  It wasn't Eusebius.  It was Ireneus.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri May 05, 2023 - 00:30:30
I made a mistake.  It wasn't Eusebius.  It was Ireneus.

Thanks for the correction....

NOE... Does anyone here have a good "reliable"  reference as to what day  Nisan 14/15  fell in 30AD and 33AD?

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu May 04, 2023 - 22:14:29
Rella, I maintain that Christ was crucified and buried on Wednesday in AD 33, with His body lying 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, to rise from the dead on Saturday at evening.  Does this contradict the charts? Yes, and I don't care.  If it comes to a choice between either a man-made chart or having those scripture prophecies fulfilled at certain required years on the calendar, I will pick the scriptural prophetic time markers every time. 

I've no problem with Christ needing to be at least a required 30 years old at the time He began His ministry, in order to be called "Rabbi", or to be qualified to become a priest.  But Luke does NOT say that Christ began to be about 30 at the beginning of His ministry.  He says that this was Christ's age at His BAPTISM, which was in AD 26/27 depending on your source. 

Christ did not immediately begin His miraculous public ministry that year at His baptism.  He spent another approximate 3 years until AD 30 before He began choosing His disciples and performed His first miracle at Cana, causing His disciples to believe on Him (John 1:35-2:11).  We know this because immediately after His baptism in AD 26/27, Christ was driven by the Spirit into the wilderness for 40 days.  Once that period of testing was over, Satan "left Him for a SEASON" (kairos - which indicates a specific appointed period of time).  I maintain the length of that "season" was the approximate 3 years before Christ began His public miraculous ministry in AD 30; the same year of AD 30 when John was thrown into prison, and when Christ announced that "The time is fulfilled..." - in AD 30. 

This would have made Jesus 33 plus years old at the beginning of His ministry in AD 30 - which was 46 years after Herod's temple renovations had begun back in 17 BC.   Christ's age at death would have been somewhere around 36-1/2 in the year AD 33, a year which coincides with Daniel's prophecy of the middle of the 70th week of years (which began all the way back in 454 BC).  AD 33 was also the year which matched the end of the literal thousand-year millennium (which began all the way back in 968/ 967 BC).  It also fits perfectly with the ending year AD 37 of Daniel's 70th week, when Paul received his temple vision in Jerusalem, and was told to leave Jerusalem and switch his evangelistic priorities over to the Gentiles.  Paul's commission by God in AD 37 to go to the Gentiles ended Daniel's last 70th week when the covenant had been confirmed with Daniel's people.

OK 3R,

We again need to agree to disagree.

I maintain AS 30 and you AD 33.

For the moment I shall not argue but my looking into which will continue until there is viable proof which one of those was a Wednesday.

As to hanging my hat on Daniel.... 

Later... I now am off to re-study Daniel.....

But Rella, this is not hanging everything on Daniel alone.  All the related scripture from Daniel 9, Revelation 20, Mark 1:15, Luke 4:18-21 and John 2:20 must all coincide and produce the same dated year for the crucifixion.  And there's no need to find your "viable proof" in a man-made chart that confirms Wednesday as the crucifixion day - comparing the gospel accounts themselves does that for us.  It HAD to be Wednesday, and no other day of the week.   And it HAD to be 3 days and 3 nights, for a total of 72 hours, and nothing else.    Begging your pardon...but damn the charts if they don't agree with the scriptures' combined testimony.

And I'm off to help haul and unload a truckbed of mulch for a lady up the street and to tear down a decrepit utility building...

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Fri May 05, 2023 - 07:38:57
But Rella, this is not hanging everything on Daniel alone.  All the related scripture from Daniel 9, Revelation 20, Mark 1:15, Luke 4:18-21 and John 2:20 must all coincide and produce the same dated year for the crucifixion.  And there's no need to find your "viable proof" in a man-made chart that confirms Wednesday as the crucifixion day - comparing the gospel accounts themselves does that for us.  It HAD to be Wednesday, and no other day of the week.   And it HAD to be 3 days and 3 nights, for a total of 72 hours, and nothing else.    Begging your pardon...but damn the charts if they don't agree with the scriptures' combined testimony.

And I'm off to help haul and unload a truckbed of mulch for a lady up the street and to tear down a decrepit utility building...

Good Morning 3R,

You are a good neighbor. And as your reward the latter part of my reply to you gives your some fun facts .

I know not Daniel alone, but I have not read Daniel much for at least 10 years. I want to refresh my own memory on Daniel 9 and some other areas.

With the way the last reply to you about the dating of how Jesus got to 30 years and so forth it got me thinking that it is possible that as the books of the bible were written with a different mindset when days and times and years were given.

There is a difference between the Gregorian Calendar and the Jewish Calendar.  And there have been countless ways to try and figure out a system by which we can relate the ages of things.

First... we cannot even be sure of the years that Daniel was spcifically written. ( I have included a few that are at odds with each other for you to scan)

Daniel was written allegedly between 540 and 550 BC. But there is a great discretion over that.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/The-Book-of-Daniel-Old-Testament

QuoteBecause its religious ideas do not belong to the 6th century BC, numerous scholars date Daniel in the first half of the 2nd century BC and relate the visions to the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175–164/163 BC).

https://christian-apologist.com/2019/09/06/when-was-the-book-of-daniel-written (THIS IS A GOOD READ)

QuoteThe book of Daniel begins in 604 B.C., which is eighteen years prior to the destruction of the first Temple in 586 B.C. Daniel and several other young men (1:4) were deported from Judah to Babylon under King Nebuchadnezzar. The book ends two years after the seventy years of exile in 532 B.C.

https://christian-apologist.com/2021/10/23/josephus-debunked-critical-scholars-late-dating-claims-of-daniel-and-isaiah/

QuoteIn Against Apion 1:8, Josephus stated that the canon of the Jewish Scriptures was closed at the reign of Artaxerxes, between 465 and 425 B.C., which refutes claims of 165 B.C. dating of Daniel.

https://www.bibleblender.com/2018/bible-stories/old-testament/daniel/an-introduction-to-daniel-detailed-outline-and-introduction-to-the-book-of-daniel

QuoteThe difference in Greek and Hebrew translations of Daniel
In some bibles, the Greek text of Daniel is considerably longer than the Hebrew variant due to three different stories included in the Greek text that are missing from the Hebrew version. These stories were accepted by all branches of Christianity until the Protestant movement rejected them in the 16th century. The three stories included in the Greek text are:

1. The Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children, placed after Daniel 3:23;
2. The story of Susanna and the Elders, placed before chapter 1 in some Greek versions and after chapter 12 in others;
3. The story of Bel and the Dragon, placed at the end of the book.

The stories are included in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox bibles but are considered apocryphal books by Protestants.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/107/arguments-for-early-late-date-of-authorship-of-daniel

QuoteArguments for a late (2nd century BC) dating:
Anti-Prophetic Argument
One of the first people to dispute the traditional dating of Daniel was Porphyry, a pagan philosopher whose arguments have been preseved by Jerome. He argues that some of the prophecies in Daniel are so congruent to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the book must have been written during his time (175-164 BC).

OK, I am not going to read anymore of this as my mind is getting mushy,

We know Daniel was a great prophet. BUT WHAT WE CANNOT BE SURE OF IS FROM WHERE HE GOT HIS DATES.

We know that Daniel was in the Old Testament and that it is the first division of the Christian biblical canon, which is based primarily upon the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible or Tanakh, a collection of ancient religious Hebrew and occasionally Aramaic writings by the Israelites.

A few passages in the Old Testament were written in Aramaic (Genesis 31:47; (OH NO!... Moses really wanted us confused didn't he  ) Ezra 4:8-6:18, 7:12-26; Jeremiah 10:11)

The earliest translation of the Hebrew Bible is the Old Greek (OG), the translation made in Alexandria, Egypt, for the use of the Greek-speaking Jewish community there.  At first, just the Torah was translated, in the third century B.C.E.

So I would think that a Jewish calendar or recording of Dates would be in line, rather then to trust in some translation that came along without understanding of of the history of such back then.

IF... FOR EXAMPLE... FROM THE LINK IN THE ABOVE POST... In the Hebrew scriptures, the dates of kings and priests were governed by regnal years. Instead of noting a specific date in the calendar when the last king died and counting the days, the method was to note who was the king on the first day of the beginning of the civil year and then count the number of years that this applied. The civil year began on the first day of the month of Tishri, the Feast of Trumpets.

Then... whatever is written such as so many years to so many years likely is off some.....

NOW... LET THE FUN BEGIN

https://www.galileecalendarcompany.com/differences-between-gregorian-calendar-and-jewish-calendar-systems%E2%80%A8/ 

Quote
Differences Between Gregorian Calendar and Jewish Calendar Systems


The Gregorian calendar is the most commonly used calendar system worldwide given that it is also the international standard. The Jewish calendar, on the other hand, is still used today by the Jews for religious purposes. The Gregorian calendar is used for secular matter and civil purposes. Aside from the Jews, the dates written in certain passages in the bible are in Jewish calendar setting. Check out the differences between the two calendar systems below. ( my note:...... NOT ALL passages.)

The Jewish calendar is based on a lunar calendar system. The first day of the week in the Jewish calendar is on Yom Rishon which is Sunday in the Gregorian calendar. The last day of the week on the Jewish calendar is the Yom Shabbat or Sabbath Day is on Saturday. The Jewish calendar's first month is Nissan which begins in either March or April. The Jewish calendar only has 354 days but adds an additional month seven times in 19 years to keep in sync with the solar year.

The Jewish calendar also dictates the age of the earth since its creation according to the Bible in the Book of Genesis. As of the Jewish calendar today, it is year 5779 since the creation of the earth. The Jewish holidays also follow the Jewish calendar only since using the Gregorian calendar would result to a different date every year. The Three Pilgrimage Festivals (Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot) begins in the first month of the Jewish calendar until the third month. The Jewish calendar also remained the same since the Old Testament.

https://pjlibrary.org/beyond-books/pjblog/june-2021/frequently-asked-questions-jewish-calendar
When did the Jewish calendar begin?

According to the biblical Book of Exodus, it's precisely when the Israelite slaves are about to go free that we see the first appearance of the Jewish calendar – as a map for their journey into freedom, because free people have control over their own time. ( my note: So this covers the time of Daniel and the entire rest of the OT and new.)

It says: "This month of Aviv (literally, "springtime," later renamed Nisan) will be the first month of the year [because it marks your exodus from Egypt]."

AND THE MOST THOUGHT PROVOKING FUN OF IT ALL.....

https://www.britannica.com/story/ten-days-that-vanished-the-switch-to-the-gregorian-calendar

QuoteTen Days That Vanished: The Switch to the Gregorian Calendar
Written and fact-checked by the editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Cathedrale St.Jean in Lyon, France has a 14th-century astronomical clock that shows religious feast days till the year 2019; Perpetual Calendar
© Jakez/Shutterstock.com

When it comes to calendars, small errors can add up over time. The Julian calendar—the prevalent calendar in the Christian world for the first millennium CE and part of the second millennium—was an improvement over the Roman republican calendar that it replaced, but it was 11 minutes and 14 seconds longer than the tropical year (the time it takes the Sun to return to the same position, as seen from Earth). The result was that the calendar drifted about one day for every 314 years.

One of the most pressing problems caused by the error was the increasing difficulty of calculating the date of Easter, which the Council of Nicaea in 325 had decreed should fall on the first Sunday following the first full moon after the vernal equinox, which at the time fell on March 21. The growing discrepancy between the date set by the council and the actual vernal equinox was noted in the 8th century CE, if not earlier, and a number of proposals for reform were brought before popes in the Middle Ages. But no action was taken, and the Julian calendar, flawed as it was, remained the official calendar of the Christian church.

In its session of 1562–63, the Council of Trent passed a decree calling for the pope to fix the problem by implementing a reformed calendar. But it took another two decades to find a suitable fix and put it into place. After years of consultation and research, Pope Gregory XIII signed a papal bull in February 1582 promulgating the reformed calendar that came to be known as the Gregorian calendar. The reforms were based on the suggestions of the Italian scientist Luigi Lilio, with some modifications by the Jesuit mathematician and astronomer Christopher Clavius. (    the Jesuit  )

The most surreal part of implementing the new calendar came in October 1582, when 10 days were dropped from the calendar to bring the vernal equinox from March 11 back to March 21. The church had chosen October to avoid skipping any major Christian festivals. So, in countries that adopted the new calendar, the Feast of St. Francis of Assisi on October 4, 1582, was directly followed by October 15. France made the transition separately in December.

Something as complex as implementing a new calendar couldn't go off without some complications, though. The Protestant and Orthodox countries didn't want to take direction from the pope, so they refused to adopt the new calendar. The result was that Catholic Europe—Austria, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Poland, and the Catholic states of Germany—suddenly jumped ahead of the rest of the continent by 10 days, and traveling across a border often meant traveling forward or backward on the calendar.

Eventually, non-Catholic countries did begin to adopt the Gregorian calendar. The Protestant regions of Germany and the Netherlands switched in the 17th century. Great Britain and the territories of the British Empire followed suit in 1752, spreading the Gregorian calendar around the globe.

So until and unless I can come up with a solid Jewish calendar shwing and incontrovertible Nisan 14 Wed being either in 30AD or 33AD I am sticking with 30AD.


BUT now I want to know what year Jewish and Gregorian it really is....... That 10 days could have made me born in June   

And all the timing of things could make 2033 or even 2030 off the mark. [/size]

Quote from: Rella on Fri May 05, 2023 - 06:12:09
Thanks for the correction....

Here's an article about what I was talking about...

https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2022/05/27/irenaeus-on-jesus-being-almost-50-years-old-and-ramifications-upon-apostolic-tradition/

...sorry if I wasted your time.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri May 05, 2023 - 21:28:28
Here's an article about what I was talking about...

https://orthodoxchristiantheology.com/2022/05/27/irenaeus-on-jesus-being-almost-50-years-old-and-ramifications-upon-apostolic-tradition/

...sorry if I wasted your time.

Dont be sorry.... I find this interesting even if not true. And never a waste of time on anything historical or biblical.

If there was not discrepancy I would not have found what I will post in my next thread about
"It's possible that the writer of Daniel stated time periods precisely in days because calendars and calculations of dates was a major issue at the time, although we can't be certain this was the reason. In fact, there may be a reference in Daniel to a change in calendars during the Seleucid period:"

Now the search is on because inquiring minds want to know . (So much to read, so here is a start.....) The following, where bolded or color change etc is found that is me. Also I have split certain paragraphs for easier reading for those that may have trouble reading large paragraphs. But it is copied and pasted exactly.

Houston? Do we have a problem?

https://stephencook.com.au/2020/11/27/daniels-time-periods-and-the-lunar-versus-solar-calendar-debate/

QuoteDaniel's time periods and the Lunar versus Solar Calendar debate
מִקְרָא MIKRA: BIBLICAL STUDIES
Dr Stephen D. Cook (and friends)

I expect most modern Christians would be well aware that the eastern and western branches of Christianity celebrate Christmas (and Easter) on different days, and that two different calendars (the Gregorian and the Julian) have been in use since 1582. What they may not know is that in the second temple era – the time "between the testaments" and the first century of the common era – there was a similar debate about which calendar to use. The Bible itself doesn't have much to say about the controversy, although we might get the occasional hint of it.

Some of the books known as "pseudepigrapha" and some of the documents in the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) have more to say about it, including 1 Enoch, Jubilees, the Temple Scroll, and 4QMMT (Miqsat Ma'ase ha-Torah, or "Some Rulings Pertaining to the Torah").

The main reason for the debate was that some Jewish groups insisted that the festivals and holy days should be calculated using a lunar calendar (354 days) or a variation known as a lunisolar calendar which made up for the shortfall in days by adding leap-days or leap-months ("intercalary" months), while others used a solar calendar (364 days).

We also get hints in the Bible that a 360-days calendar was in use at some time. I won't go into the technical details here because ... well, it's technical!

In a nutshell, it appears from some of the discussion in the DSS that the calendar controversy was so important to the group which settled in Qumran (most scholars argue they were Essenes) that it was a contributing factor which led them to actually physically move from Jerusalem to the desert near the Dead Sea. The Qumran community used a solar calendar of 364 days.

The present-day Jewish calendar evolved over several centuries but is a lunisolar one and, as rabbinical Judaism is descended from the Pharisees there are good reasons for thinking that the Qumran community and the Pharisees used different calendars. The Greeks and the Hellenistic Jews also used a solar calendar but it was probably different to the one used by the Essenes and so was considered to be 'pagan' and therefore abhorrent.

In a couple recent posts I touched on the prophetic time periods in the book of Daniel. I suggested that they almost certainly referred to the length of the Maccabean revolt and the period between the desecration of the Temple by the Seleucid king Antiochus IV Epiphanes and its re-dedication by Judah Maccabee. Josephus states quite explicitly that this period was 3 years and 6 months (Wars of the Jews. 1.1.1). I did say it is a matter for the experts, and while acknowledging that I'm not a Daniel-expert (or even close) I'm going to put my toe in the water, especially as these dates quite possibly relate to calendars.

First, here is a list of the time periods mentioned in Daniel which approximate to 3 – 3 ½ years:

A time, two times, and half a time (7:25; 12:7). Possibly equivalent to "a year, two years, and half a year" i.e. 3 ½ years
2300 evenings and mornings (i.e. 1150 days, or about 38 months, or just over 3 years)

1290 days (12:11), approximately 3 ½ years (depending on which calendar is used and how many days are in the year)

1335 days (12:12), or 45 days longer than the 1290 days in the previous verse. This difference may simply be the length of time between Judah's victory over the Seleucids and the re-dedication of the Temple a short time later.

Daniel also has a period of seventy weeks (literally "seventy sevens" in Hebrew), broken into smaller periods of 7 weeks/sevens, 62 weeks/sevens and half a week/seven (9:24-27). The length of these "sevens" is not specified. Hence, the full period could be seventy "weeks" or 70 X 7 years. That would make the final small-division "half a seven", which could mean either 3 ½ days or 3 ½ years.

Second, the New Testament book of Revelation, which appears to draw much of its material from Daniel, has some similar periods:

1260 days, or 42 months (11:2-3; 12:6), which is approximately (or precisely) equivalent to 3 ½ years depending on which calendar is used and how many days are in the month and year.

42 months (11:2; 13:5), which is equivalent to 3 ½ years of 30-day months.

Although it's not 3 ½ years Revelation also has a period of 3 ½ days (11:9, 11). There may not be a connection, but equally it may not be coincidence.

It looks like the writer of Revelation is using a 360-days calendar, and this could explain why he has 1260 days when Daniel has 1290.

If they are using different calendars 3 ½ years would be 1260 days using one calendar but 1290 (including a 30-day intercalary month) using another.

It's possible that the writer of Daniel stated time periods precisely in days because calendars and calculations of dates was a major issue at the time, although we can't be certain this was the reason. In fact, there may be a reference in Daniel to a change in calendars during the Seleucid period:

He [Antiocus IV] shall speak words against the Most High, shall wear out the holy ones of the Most High, and shall attempt to change the seasons and the law; and they shall be given into his power for a time, two times, and half a time. DANIEL 7:25

Some scholars argue that the phrase "he shall attempt to change the seasons" is a reference to the imposition of the Hellenistic lunisolar calendar on Judea, changing the times when religious festivals would be observed. (The word זִמְנִין can mean either seasons or times.)

Some speculate that this could have been been one of the factors which triggered the Maccabean revolt. While the Qumran community and the priests at the Jerusalem Temple both used calendars of 364 days, the months, festivals and seasons were calculated using different methods.

There very well may have been three or four calendars in use around this time: the solar calendar used by the Qumran group; a lunisolar calendar used by the Pharisees; a Hellenistic solar calendar which also had 364 days but replaced Jewish festivals with Greek ones; and possibly a solar calendar used in the Temple by Hellenistic priests (Sadducees) which blended the Greek and Jewish calendars and was not accepted by the Pharisees or the Qumran group.

Does this matter at all to how we understand Daniel?

Perhaps not, although it is important to know the background to the conflicts between the Seleucids and the Maccabees which are the focus of much of Daniel.

The calendar was one of these issues, and there is a hint in Daniel 7:25 that it was a concern to the writer. ( added by me:  Daniel 7:25 King James Version 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel's numbers may be symbolic, although the fact that they line up pretty closely with the historical records in 1 & 2 Maccabees and in Josephus makes me think that they refer literally, rather than symbolically, to the duration of the Maccabean revolt.

But the writer of Daniel may also have been consciously using a kind of 'code' in his use of numbers to let his readers know exactly where he stood on the calendar issue.

It is similar to the way small details can reveal a lot about a person or a group.

For example, in some Christian denominations a visitor to a church might be able to detect from which edition of the denominational Prayer Book or Hymn Book is being used where that congregation stands on a whole host of issues. Simply from the congregation's choice about which edition of the Prayer Book to use, a visitor might be able to determine where they stand, for example, on the ordination of women. An outsider probably wouldn't pick anything up from such a small detail, but an insider would read it as a code which reveals more information. Perhaps we have a similar 'code' in Daniel's references to the days in a year, or in 3 ½ years.

Here you go Rella...

another source that is an interesting one to read, written by a New Zealand pastor named Christian Gedge.  His website is www.5loaves2fishes.net , in case you haven't run across this one yet. 

If you click on Christian Gedge's  "research articles", the ones you would mainly be interested in for your current study theme are entitled: "The Atonement Clock", "The Chronology of the Kingdom", and "Chronology of the Cross".  He agrees with your opinion that AD 30 is the crucifixion year, but unfortunately, he does not take into account that Christ's ministry was NOT dated from His baptism in AD 27, but from the beginning of His miraculous ministry which began 3 years later.   I don't agree with his position on many things, but the gentleman in so thorough in his studies that I have benefitted from just reading through his material.  I also enjoy just listening to his New Zealand accent on his podcasts...

The gospel of John shows us that the Jews knew very well when Daniel's prophesied beginning year for the manifestation of Messiah the Prince would take place (aka, the beginning of the 70th "week" of years).  This is why (in John 1:19 and following) they sent a delegation of priests and Levites from Jerusalem to John at that very specific year, asking John if he were the prophesied Christ, or Elias, or the prophet.  John told them that he himself was only the voice of one crying in the wilderness, who had been preparing the way of the Lord.  He reminded them that he, John, had already witnessed the Holy Spirit descending and remaining on Jesus at His baptism - which had already taken place much earlier in time.   Exactly three days later, Christ performed His first miracle at Cana, beginning His public ministry.  The gospel of John as written starts with events in the years AFTER Christ's baptism, while the other gospels include the story of Christ's baptism in their chronology of events. 

John said that Christ's manifestation as Messiah the Prince was to come AFTER his own period of ministry had ended: "There cometh one mightier than I AFTER ME, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose."  This means that Christ's public ministry as Daniel's Messiah the Prince coming to His own people would begin AFTER John had "fulfilled his course" and had been imprisoned - which was in AD 30.  John performed no miracles, but against this backdrop of no miracles being performed by John, Jesus immediately began His earthly ministry with the miracle at Cana (in AD 30), and continued displays of such miraculous power throughout His ministry. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sat May 06, 2023 - 11:11:36
Here you go Rella...

another source that is an interesting one to read, written by a New Zealand pastor named Christian Gedge.  His website is www.5loaves2fishes.net , in case you haven't run across this one yet. 

If you click on Christian Gedge's  "research articles", the ones you would mainly be interested in for your current study theme are entitled: "The Atonement Clock", "The Chronology of the Kingdom", and "Chronology of the Cross".  He agrees with your opinion that AD 30 is the crucifixion year, but unfortunately, he does not take into account that Christ's ministry was NOT dated from His baptism in AD 27, but from the beginning of His miraculous ministry which began 3 years later.   I don't agree with his position on many things, but the gentleman in so thorough in his studies that I have benefitted from just reading through his material.  I also enjoy just listening to his New Zealand accent on his podcasts...

The gospel of John shows us that the Jews knew very well when Daniel's prophesied beginning year for the manifestation of Messiah the Prince would take place (aka, the beginning of the 70th "week" of years).  This is why (in John 1:19 and following) they sent a delegation of priests and Levites from Jerusalem to John at that very specific year, asking John if he were the prophesied Christ, or Elias, or the prophet.  John told them that he himself was only the voice of one crying in the wilderness, who had been preparing the way of the Lord.  He reminded them that he, John, had already witnessed the Holy Spirit descending and remaining on Jesus at His baptism - which had already taken place much earlier in time.   Exactly three days later, Christ performed His first miracle at Cana, beginning His public ministry.  The gospel of John as written starts with events in the years AFTER Christ's baptism, while the other gospels include the story of Christ's baptism in their chronology of events. 

John said that Christ's manifestation as Messiah the Prince was to come AFTER his own period of ministry had ended: "There cometh one mightier than I AFTER ME, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose."  This means that Christ's public ministry as Daniel's Messiah the Prince coming to His own people would begin AFTER John had "fulfilled his course" and had been imprisoned - which was in AD 30.  John performed no miracles, but against this backdrop of no miracles being performed by John, Jesus immediately began His earthly ministry with the miracle at Cana (in AD 30), and continued displays of such miraculous power throughout His ministry.

Oh I am a busy little bee. LOL

Thanks for this.... Ill delve in after I finish my Jesus baptism readings....

So close... those 3 years of separation. And nothing definitive.

OKAY... be happy. I wont post anymore today...

Good morning 3Rs,

First are my apologies for the length of this. And please not that "Last Days of Jesus Timeline" mentioned last in here has it's own thread... due to length and also content.

I have just started to read things you recommended in your link and admittedly will take me more then a brief hour.

I wont comment much right now as I have started with Chronology of the Cross and will want to study it further as there are contradictions that I have read but
definitively stated is Modern research has enabled us through astronomical and computer technology to pinpoint two possible dates for the cross. They are AD 30 or AD 33. This is based on Old Testament information that the Passover lamb was slain late on the 14th Nisan and eaten early on the fifteenth. Therefore, since the Hebrew day began at sunset, Jesus' last meal with his disciples would have been about 9 pm, Thursday, the fifteenth Nisan.

     You and I both agree that he was not buried between 3 and 6PM on Friday. (The 3 days just do not work! Period.)

Further, "Now, Hebrew months begin on the sighting of new moon and the position of the moon can be determined at any moment in history enabling us to convert lunar dates. When we examine AD 31 for example, Passover fell on a Tuesday; but Jesus' last supper was not on a Tuesday. This particular Passover had to be Thursday/Friday and, according to data from astronomical observatories, Passover occurred late Thursday 15th Nisan during this period only on 6th April AD 30 and 2nd April AD 33. Therefore, since Christ was crucified later on Friday, the crucifixion date must either be 7th April AD 30 or 3rd April AD 33.

Yet they confuse the issue with : "Therefore, the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius would make it AD 26-27 correlating with the start of Christ's ministry and supporting the AD 30 date as the most likely date of his crucifixion.

Last line, after all the supporting evidence it says "There is a consistent pattern of evidence that our Lord was crucified late on Passover day, approx 3 pm, April 7th AD 30.

I will continue to read from that site but I had done a lot of reading yesterday and wanted to post things I found.

I Had done a search for (The following links are by no means the only links I can provide, but are among the more easily understood.)

When was Jesus baptised... and from the drop down list it seems the consensus

     https://bibleask.org › jesus-get-baptized
     

QuoteWhen did Jesus get baptized? - BibleAsk
     According to Bible chronology, Jesus got baptized in the autumn of A.D. 27 (Matthew 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22).
     The Bible tells us, " Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar ... the word of God came to John the son of
     Zacharias in the wilderness.

     https://evidenceforchristianity.org › what-year-was-jesus-baptized
     

QuoteWhat Year was Jesus baptized? - Evidence for Christianity
     If we take AD 30 as the most likely date for the death of Jesus and we take three years as the length of time of his public
     ministry, then Jesus was baptized in AD 27. I think we can say with a good degree of confidence that the baptism of Jesus
     was somewhere between AD 25-28, with the most likely date being AD 27. John Oakes

I then asked what year Jesus was Baptised and got

     https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/jesus-baptism-timeline.html
   

Quote Fall of 26 A.D.
     On Monday, September 2 in 26 A.D., Jesus turned thirty years old. This was the most important birthday in his entire life,
     as thirty was the Biblical age that needed to be reached before a priest could begin to serve God (see Numbers 4:3, 23,
     47).

     Jesus, after turning this momentous age, travels from his boyhood home of Nazareth (Mark 1:9) to Bethabara (John 1:28)
     to be baptized. Bethabara is located southeast of the Sea of Galilee on the eastern side of the Jordan River. It is the place
     where John the Baptist, for the past six months, has been calling for people to repent of their sins and be baptized (John
     1:19 - 27).

     Interestingly, John does not know in advance who exactly is the Messiah (John 1:31, 33). God has told him, however, to
     look for a special sign denoting who is His only Son. This sign (likely only visible to John), which will occur after the
     baptism, will be the Holy Spirit descending out of heaven and remaining on the person (ultimately Jesus).

     https://www.crosswalk.com › faith › bible-study › where-was-jesus-baptized.html
     

QuoteWhere Was Jesus Baptized? Importance of the Jordan River - Crosswalk.com
     It was there, somewhere in between A.D. 26-29, that John the Baptist began his public ministry, baptizing people in the
     Jordan River at a place described in John's gospel as "Bethany beyond the Jordan" (John 1:28).

SO WE CAN SEE THERE IS A LOT OF SUPPORT FOR THE APPROXIMATE DATE  OF 27AD FOR HIS BAPTISM.

NOW: I then searched for After Jesus was baptised how long until he started his ministry. THIS WAS NOT AS CLEAR CUT AS ONE MIGHT EXPECT.  (again from the drop down list.)

     https://www.thesacredcalendar.com/downloads/timeline-of-jesus-ministry/

Quote      The timeline of Jesus Ministry and His public life begins with the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist in the fifteenth year
     of Roman Emperor Tiberius according to Luke 3:1. John the Baptist begins his public ministry in the Spring of 26 AD with
     the call to repentance in the region of the Jordon River according to Luke 3:1-14. Tiberius Caesar began his joint reign with
     Augustus on July 1 in 11 AD.  This clearly puts this time of year for the Baptism of Jesus in the late summer of 26 AD.

     First Year of Public Ministry
     After His baptism by John the Baptist, Jesus is tempted in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights without water or food. 
     After coming out the wilderness, Jesus begins calling His Disciples saying "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of
     men" (Matthew 4:19). A sample of some of the first year events of the public life and ministry of Jesus includes the
     following:

I DONT HAVE MUCH BELIEF IN THE WIKI ACCOUNT.  Anytime you have spacing of years such as 27-29 or 30-36 it make for a harder to determing time. BUT one can gather some informative info.

     WIKI
     

Quotehttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ministry_of_Jesus
     2] [3] A chronology of Jesus typically sets the date of the start of his ministry at around AD 27-29 and the end in the range
     AD 30-36. [2] [3] [4] [note 1] Jesus' early Galilean ministry begins when after his baptism, he goes back to Galilee from his
     temptation in the Judaean Desert. [5]

     The ministry of Jesus, in the canonical gospels, begins with his baptism in the countryside of Roman Judea and Transjordan,
     near the River Jordan by John the Baptist, and ends in Jerusalem, following the Last Supper with his disciples.[1] The
     Gospel of Luke (Luke 3:23) states that Jesus was "about 30 years of age" at the start of his ministry.[2][3] A chronology of
     Jesus typically sets the date of the start of his ministry at around AD 27–29 and the end in the range AD 30–36.[2][3][4]
     [note 1]

     The Early Galilean ministry begins when, according to Matthew, Jesus goes back to Galilee from the Judean desert, after
     rebuffing the temptation of Satan.

     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204&version=ESV

Quote     The Temptation of Jesus
     4 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days,
     being tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing during those days. And when they were ended, he was hungry.

     12 And Jesus answered him, "It is said, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" 13 And when the devil had ended
     every temptation, he departed from him until an opportune time.

    Jesus Begins His Ministry
     14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and a report about him went out through all the surrounding
     country. 15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

Obviously Jesus taught  (the beginning of His ministry) shortly after returning from the wilderness.

THE LAST POSTING ON HERE FOR NOW BECAUSE I AM GOING TO MAKE A SEPARATE THREAD FROM THIS LINK AS IT HAS QUITE A TIMELINE.

     https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/jesus-baptism-timeline.html

Quote     Two main parts
     Jesus' earthly ministry, which encompassed the last 3 1/2 years of his life, can be divided into two main parts. The first part
     lasts roughly six months from the fall of 26 A.D. (where this timeline begins) to the spring of 27. Events in this period of
     include his baptism performed by John the Baptist and forty days of temptation by Satan in the Judean wilderness.

     This latter part of this six-month period, after Jesus' baptism, includes his initial contact with many of the men who would
     become his apostles. Jesus also performs his first Biblically recorded miracle at a Cana wedding celebration, travels to his
     new home in Capernaum, and then journeys to Jerusalem to keep the first Passover of his ministry.

     The second part or phase of Jesus' ministry, which lasts for three years until his crucifixion, begins during the Passover
     season of 27 A.D. It is during this special Holy Day period that he makes his presence, for the first time, publically
     known at Jerusalem's temple. He does so by throwing out the many merchants and "money changers" at the temple who
     were carnally benefitting in a place dedicated to worshipping the true God (John 2:13 - 25).

     Temptation ends . . . for now
     Satan's concentrated temptations finally ended on Sunday, October 20, exactly forty days after they began

[/size]
   

     

Perhaps a brand new thread altogether under a different subject title  is warranted, but since this is in the vein of our last few exchanges I am keeping this here.... (If you look at the actual link you will find pictures that I am not copying to here)

https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/last-days-of-jesus-timeline.html

Quote
Last Days of Jesus Timeline
(March 29 to April 9, 30 A.D.)
Ask a Question!   -   Newsletter
This next to last of our timelines in this series delineates, in detail, the last days of Jesus' life. It also covers the Biblical events immediately after his crucifixion. Other timelines in this series are listed at the bottom of this article.

Last Days of Jesus Timeline
What happened during Jesus' last days of life? When did he die? Who first saw him after the resurrection?



Wednesday, March 29th in 30 A.D.

The last days in the life of Jesus begin near sunset. His trip to Lazarus' house in Bethany began in Jericho, which is 17 miles (27.3 kilometers) away. In the early evening, after arriving in the home, he has supper (John 12:1 - 2).

Lazarus' sister Mary, after supper, anoints Jesus' feet with very expensive ointment. Judas (who carries the group's money bag) complains that what was spent on ointment could have been used to help the poor. The real reason Judas complained to Jesus was that he was a thief who wanted more money to steal (John 12:3 - 11).

Thursday, March 30

Jesus, in the morning, travels from Lazarus' house in Bethany to Bethphage, which is a Sabbath day's journey (1,000 yards or .91 kilometers) away from Jerusalem. He then mounts a colt for his triumphal entry into the city. The gathering crowd, as he travels, begins to praise him and God (Mark 11:9 - 10). They also place their clothes and cut palm tree branches on the road in front of him.

The Pharisees (religious leaders) hear the crowd's praises and ask Jesus to tell them to shut up! He replies that if they did not cry out praises the stones would (Matthew 21:1 - 11, Mark 11:1 - 10, Luke 19:29 - 40, John 12:12 - 19)!

Nearing Jerusalem Jesus begins to cry over the city. He is heard saying that, because the city did not accept him as Savior, it would soon be destroyed (Luke 19:41 - 44). He goes to the temple and returns in the evening to Bethany (Mark 11:11). He teaches daily in the temple (Luke 19:47 - 48).

Jesus in house of Martha and Mary
Jesus in house of Martha and Mary
Cornelis Engebrechtsz, c. 1515
Friday, March 31

Jesus, as he travels during the morning back to Jerusalem, becomes hungry. He spots a fig tree and goes to it hoping to find figs. Finding only leaves he says to the tree "Let no one eat fruit from you ever again" (Mark 11:14). He arrives at the temple and casts out the money changers and dove sellers, saying the following.

"It is written, 'My house is a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves'" (Luke 19:46).

Money changers, notorious for being corrupt, exchanged currency for the Temple's half-shekel coin needed to pay the yearly temple tribute. Those who were poor bought doves and used them to make a temple offering.

Children begin to shout "Hosanna to the Son of David!" (Matthew 21:15) while Jesus heals at the temple. The chief priests and scribes, hearing the children, make themselves quite angry and tell him to make them stop. He corrects them by stating the children are fulfilling prophecy (Matthew 21:12 - 16, Mark 11:12 - 17, Luke 19:45 - 48). He returns to Bethany for the night (Matthew 21:17, Mark 11:19).

Saturday, April 1

In the morning, while traveling to Jerusalem, the disciples notice that the cursed fig tree is dried up (Matthew 21:19 - 22, Mark 11:20 - 26). Some Hellenist Jews, in Jerusalem to celebrate the feast, ask Philip if they can see him. When told of the request Jesus states his time has come to be glorified (John 12:20 - 27). He asks God the Father to glorify His (the Father's) name.

A thunderous voice from heaven states God had, and will again, glorify His name (John 12:28 - 30). He states that now is the judgment of the world and that the prince of this world (Satan) will be cast out (John 12:31 - 36). He leaves the city again and hides himself for the remainder of the Sabbath (John 12:36).

Sunday, April 2

In the morning, at Jerusalem's temple, the chief priests, scribes and elders, for the final time, confront and challenge Jesus' authority (Matthew 21:23 - 24:2, Mark 11:27 - 13:2, Luke 20:1 - 21:4). The confrontation lasts from morning to late afternoon.

Late in the afternoon Jesus and the disciples start to leave the temple area for the Mount of Olives. As they exit he reveals that Jerusalem's temple will soon be destroyed (Matthew 24:1 - 2, Mark 13:1 - 2, Luke 21:5 - 6). On the Mount of Olives he prophesies about the events to occur just before his second coming to earth and the completion of the age (Matthew 24:3 - 26:2, Mark 13:3 - 7, Luke 21:7 - 38).

Near evening, the disciples are told that the Passover is after two days (Matthew 26:2, Mark 14:1). The chief priests, scribes, elders, etc. of the Great Sanhedrin, who hate him, meet at the palace of Caiaphas the high priest. They meet to discuss how to have him killed "by trickery" (Matthew 26:5). Jesus travels to Bethany and stays at Simon the Leper's house.

While eating a woman comes in and anoints his head with very expensive ointment. Some of the disciples roundly criticize the woman for buying such costly ointment instead of using the money to help the poor. He, however, first chides the disciples for being overly critical then states the woman was anointing him for his burial (Matthew 26:6 - 13, Mark 14:3 - 9).

Monday, April 3

Judas betrays Christ to the chief priests for thirty pieces of silver (Matthew 26:14 - 16, Mark 14:10 - 11, Luke 22:3 - 6).

Tuesday, April 4

The disciples prepare for the Passover (Matthew 26:17 - 19, Mark 14:12 - 16, Luke 22:7 - 13). At sunset, they observe the last Passover Jesus will partake of (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22, John 13). After the service is completed they sing a hymn then walk to the Mount of Olives (Matthew 26:30, Mark 14:26).

At roughly 9 p.m., while walking to the Garden of Gethsemane (at the foot of the Mount of Olives), Jesus tells the disciples he is the True Vine (John 15:1 - 27). He offers his final words of encouragement (John 16:1 - 31) and again states that the disciples will leave him (John 16:32 - 33).

Jesus and his disciples arrive at the Garden of Gethsemane, where Peter, James and John are designated to stand watch while Christ prays for three hours. His disciples, though asked to stay awake while he prays, quickly fall asleep. Although he initially prays that the "cup" of suffering and death awaiting him be taken away, the Lord ultimately accepts whatever the Father wills (Matthew 26: 36 - 44, Mark 14:32 - 40, Luke 22:39 - 46, John 17).

Wednesday, April 5

After midnight, when (according to the Roman calendar we use today) it becomes Wednesday, Judas arrives in the Garden of Gethsemane accompanied by armed officers and other men provided by the religious leaders. Judas, as a signal of which person to arrest, gives Jesus a kiss (Matthew 26:45 - 49, Mark 14:41 - 45, Luke 22:47 - 48, John 18:1 - 8).

The High Priest, at approximately 2 a.m., questions Jesus about His disciples and teachings but does not receive an answer. Frustrated, he adjures him by the living God to state whether or not he is the true Son of God (Matthew 26:62 - 63). The answer he receives so angers him that he tears his clothes and cries out that Christ has committed blasphemy.

The High Priest then immediately asks the council for a verdict, to which they unanimously shout that the death penalty should be carried out (Matthew 26:59 - 68, Mark 14:55 - 65, Luke 22:63 - 65). Peter then denies him three times (Matthew 26:69 - 75, Mark 14:66 - 72, Luke 22:56 - 62, John 18:17, 25 - 27).

At approximately 5 to 6 a.m., because Jewish law demanded two sessions of the Sanhedrin hear and try a defendant, a second trial of Jesus was held around 5 a.m. This second trial, however, seems little more than a "rubber stamp" or automatic approval of the first trial's decision. He is bound and sent to Pontius Pilate, the Roman Prefect of Judea, for punishment around 6 a.m. (Matthew 27:1 - 2, Mark 15:1, Luke 22:66 - 23:1, John 18:28)

Judas Iscariot, at sunrise, repents of betraying Christ but still hangs himself. The Chief Priests decide to buy a potter's field with thirty pieces of silver Judas gave back to them (Matthew 27:3 - 10, Acts 1:15 - 19)

At approximately 7 a.m., instead of blasphemy, the Jewish leaders bring Jesus to Pontius Pilate under the charge of treason against Rome. They do this in order to improve their chances of the Romans putting him to death.

While Pilate questions Jesus (Matthew 27:11 - 14, Mark 15:2 - 5, Luke 23:2 - 4, John 18:29 - 30) he discovers he is from Galilee and sends him to Herod Antipas (Tetrarch of Galilee and son of Herod the Great) for judgment. Herod questions him but receives no answers. Herod and his soldiers mock him, put a splendid robe on him, and send him back to Pilate (Luke 23:5 - 12).

Pontius Pilate, at roughly 8 a.m., tells the Jewish religious leaders that he and Herod Antipas find Jesus innocent. Pilate wishes to release him (Luke 23:13 - 15, John 18:31 - 38). Unable to do so because of the crowds, he releases the prisoner Barabbas. He then has his soldiers severely beat and scourge Jesus.

The soldiers take Jesus to Golgotha, also known as Calvary and the Place of the Skull, to be crucified. Along the route they force Simon of Cyrene to carry his cross (Matthew 27:32 - 33, Mark 15:21 - 22, Luke 23:26 - 31, John 19:16 - 17).

Jesus, from 9 a.m. to noon, is nailed to the cross. He is crucified along with two thieves (Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27 - 28, Luke 23:32 - 33, John 19:18). He is given wine (vinegar) mixed with gall to drink while on the cross (Matthew 27:34, Mark 15:23). Roman soldiers also cast lots for his clothes.

Pontius Pilate has the charge against him written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin and put on Jesus' cross. Near the end of his life Christ asks God the Father to forgive those that are killing him (Matthew 27:35 - 36, Mark 15:24 - 25, Luke 23:34, John 19:23 - 24).

Some in the crowd, where Christ is crucified, stare at him in amazement. Others such as Roman soldiers, members of the Sanhedrin (chief priests, scribes, elders) and even the two thieves also being crucified, mock him.

Many family and friends, at a distance, watch Jesus suffer on the cross. These include his mother Mary, her sister, Mary Magdalene and the apostle John (Matthew 27:39 - 45, 55 - 56, Mark 15:29 - 33, 40 - 41, Luke 23:35 - 44, 48 - 49).

Darkness covers the entire land from noon to 3 p.m. Jesus tells his mother, Mary, to now consider the apostle John her son and tells John to take care of his mother Mary (John 19:25 - 27).

At 3 p.m. Jesus Christ, the Savior of man, is forsaken by God and cries out with a loud voice: "Eli Eli, lama sabachthani?" Some in the crowd think he is calling out to the prophet Elijah (Matthew 27:46 - 47, Mark 15:34 - 35). He accepts vinegar (sour wine) to wet his lips. A spear is thrust into his side and He cries out with a loud voice "It is Finished!" His last words are, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit."


What Does Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani Mean?
Was Jesus, on the cross, shouting out to Elijah for help? How did those near the cross respond?



The Jews, desiring the death of those crucified before the High Holy Day starts (around 6 pm), asks Pilate to break their legs. Pilate agrees. The legs of those crucified with Jesus are broken, but his are not since he is already dead (John 19:31 - 37).

Pilate, just before sunset, allows Joseph of Arimathea, a rich member of the Sanhedrin, to take the body of Jesus. Joseph and Nicodemus wrap his body in fine linen with a mixture of myrrh and aloes and bury him in the brand new tomb Joseph had made for himself (Matthew 27:57 - 61, Mark 15:42 - 47, Luke 23:50 - 55, John 19:38 - 42). At sunset the First Day of Unleavened Bread, a high Holy Day where no work is allowed, begins.

Thursday, April 6

The Chief Priests, along with the Pharisees, visit Pontius Pilate out of fear that Jesus' disciples will secretly steal his body then claim he has risen from the dead. The religious leaders request that Pilate use his troops to have the tomb secured. Pilate, however, gives them permission to use their own guard for the task. The garden tomb is made secure, the stone at the entrance of the tomb is sealed, and a guard is placed near it (Matthew 27:62 - 66). At sunset the holy day ends.

Friday, April 7

Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome buy and prepare spices for the body of Jesus. They also prepare to rest on the weekly Bible Sabbath which begins at sunset (Mark 16:1, Luke 23:56).

Saturday, April 8

Late in the afternoon of the weekly Sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the "other Mary" check on where Jesus is buried (Mark 16:1). Then, just before sunset, he is RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD after spending precisely three whole days and three whole nights (72 hours), from sunset Wednesday to sunset Saturday, in the tomb!

Sunday, April 9

Mary Magdalene and other women, early in the morning, go to Jesus' tomb with the spices they had prepared for his body. When the women arrive, they see the large stone that blocked entrance into the tomb moved away and an angel sitting on top of it. The angel then tells the women to enter the tomb.

The women, in the tomb, see a young man clothed in a white robe. He is sitting on the right side of where Jesus was laid. The man shows them that the body is gone. He tells the women to inform the disciples, especially Peter, that Jesus is alive.

Mary Magdalene runs to tell Peter and John what has happened. Peter and John run to the tomb and see his linen cloths lying inside the tomb in one place and the cloth put over his head neatly folded and placed by itself (Matthew 28:2 - 8, Mark 16:2 - 8, Luke 24:1 - 12, John 20:1 - 10).

Mary Magdalene, who had seven demons cast out of her, is the first human to see Jesus alive after his resurrection. He tells Mary not to touch him as he has not yet ascended to God the Father (Mark 16:9 - 11, John 20:11 - 18).

Sometime during the day some Roman soldiers, who guarded the tomb of Jesus, go to the chief priests and report all that had happened. The priests meet with the elders to decide what to do next. They decide to bribe the soldiers with a large sum of money to have them tell an incredibly absurd story as to what happened to the body (Matthew 28:11 - 15).[/size]

QuoteAmo, I am certainly not ignoring those "gobs and gobs of scripture".  I just pay careful attention to the time-relevant terms which John applied to the fulfillment of all those prophesies, which you are not doing.  Those time-relevant terms which were applied to all of those unsealed, revealed visions meant that they would be fulfilled in John's generation, by the close of the first-century "time of the end" which concluded in AD 70.

Yes there are time relevant terms, which we both understand, but quite apparently interpret very differently. Please do establish from scripture when the "time of the end" began, and why you think it ended in AD 70. I am not interested in a 3Res says so.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ sowed the good seed, and the devil sows the seed of the wicked. The world is the field, and the harvests are the end of this world, (Rev 14:14-20). The time of the end began with the climactic event of the first coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who sowed the seeds of the fruits of righteousness, which the devil combats with his seeds of the fruits of wickedness. When these harvests are ripe, they will be reaped at the end of this world. As both the mysteries of godliness and iniquity will have played themselves out on the final global stage. Biblical prophecy predicts this before the end of the world concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ and His kingdom, verses the deceptions of this world and the evil ones kingdoms (beasts) at variance with the same.
 
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The preaching of the gospel to all nations of the world unto fruition, which is the sowing of the good seed, must take place before the end. The gospel of the kingdom of God at variance with the kingdoms of this world, must be preached unto fruition of both of the same, then the end will come. This is the exact scenario described in biblical prophecy when the final global beast of prophecy attempts to force everyone to worship itself, instead of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Everyone choosing whom they will obey, and therefore which kingdom they belong to. Which prophetic message you do reject and fight against. Though you cannot and will not prevent its fulfillment. (Rom 6:15-23)

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Again, the time of the end or the last days, began with the first coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. After which also in these last days, the Spirit of God was poured out at Pentecost, and has been and will continue to be until the end. Empowering the gospel of the kingdom of God proclaimed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

And again, the last days began at the first coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Who spoke the gospel of the kingdom of God to humanity at that time, and continues to do so through His church to this day. And again, what is one of the culminations of the biblical prophecies of the book of Revelation pertaining to Babylon the Great and the final beast she rides, but the cry for God's people to come out of her. Come out of the the kingdoms and nations of this world which she rides, and into the kingdom of God, before His plagues are poured out upon her and the beast she rides (Rev 18). Which message you do war and fight against in your interpretations of biblical prophecy.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And yet again, Christ appeared in this world, at the time of the end. Which is to say, that His appearing begins the time of the end for this world. As it presents the message according to which, all will decide their fate from that time forward. Until the appointed prophetic time of our Lord's second coming. Which biblical prophecy in the book of Revelation tells us will be immediately preceded by a final beast of prophecy which attempts to force all in the world to worship itself in the place of God. Which God Himself will allow for, that all in one generation will make the only one decision necessary unto salvation or not, in one generation. Then the end shall come, since all decisions regarding the gospel of the kingdom of God or not, will have been made. Which message again, you do war against in denying all such.

The above testimonies reveal the beginning of the time of the end or last days for this present world. Which time itself ends at the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as the book of Revelation and the rest of the bible conclusively teach. Neither the culmination of the prophecies of the book of Revelation or the bible as a whole, end in AD 70 as you suggest. Though certain more specific prophecies of scripture may very well do so.

QuoteThat was the end of Daniel's people, when the power of the holy people was crushed, as Daniel 12:7 predicted.  Only the sealed-up prophesies which the seven thunders uttered in Revelation 10:4 were reserved for later generations after the close of AD 70, some of which apply to us and our future.

This appears to be another because 3Res says so's. Again, please do back up such statements with scripture. Daniel 12:7 states that the power of the holy people shall be scattered, not that the holy people shall be crushed. God's people have been and shall continue to be persecuted and at times even scattered in this world (Acts 8 & 11:19), but never crushed. This statement in Dan 12:7 however, I believe properly applies to the power of the holy people as it simply states, and not the people themselves. The power of the holy people, is the Holy Spirit of God, unto the preaching and conviction of the truths of holy scripture. More particularly, the power of the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ our Lord. Which message the devil has always sought to scatter and or destroy during both the old and new covenant eras. As the gospel was given during both, and was and is the only means of salvation (Heb 4:2). 

Daniel 12 however, begins with a reference to Michael the great prince which stands for the "children of Daniel's people", and an obvious reference to the resurrection as well. Who are the children of the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who wait upon the resurrection of the saved as well at Christ's appearing? The Church of Christ of course. Who are the children of the Jews, but the offspring and inheritors of the blessings of their Messiah. Which is and who are the Church of Christ Jesus our lord, who is the resurrection and the life (Joh 11:25). Who is Michael, but the archangel.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.And who calls forth the dead at the resurrection, but the archangel.

How are the dead raised, but by the voice of the archangel.

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who else's voice can the voice of the archangel be, but the voice of Christ Jesus himself, who testified the following.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And what are the followers of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, but fellow citizens with the old covenant saints, and the children of Abraham by faith.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham............................
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith......................
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ......................
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Daniel 12:7 is not about the end of the literal Jewish nation, it is about silencing and scattering the power of the holy people, which is the gospel of the Kingdom of God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. By way of conviction by the Holy Spirit of God.

Christ the Messiah had not come, and there was no Church of Christ for Daniel to refer to when he had his visions and wrote his prophecies. The prophecy therefore refers to Christ's Church as the children of Daniel's people, and rightly so. While the literal Jewish nation was being literally crushed as you suggest this prophecy refers to, the holy people of God were empowered by the Holy Spirit of God, spreading the gospel of the kingdom of God throughout Israel and the world. Their power was not being crushed, but to the contrary, was greater at that time than ever before or probably since. While the literal Jewish nation of the time was being destroyed in judgement form God, exactly because they were no longer God's holy people. Being in a state of apostasy in rejecting their Messiah, as they were in the days of old when God sent His judgements upon them as well.

Daniel 12 is not about the end of the literal nation of Israel, but rather the scattering of the power of God's people during the new covenant era. As much of the book of Daniel is about the new covenant era, as its prophecies also extend to the end of this world. Only there was no Christ or His established church to name at that time. But the true and spiritual Israel accepted their Messiah, and eventually came to be called Christianity. Which itself also apostatized over time, and lost the power as God's holy people through the same means Israel continually lost their witnessing power in this world. By compromising and adapting themselves to the false religions and kingdoms of this world.

The history of which is also an intricate part of the fulfillment of biblical prophecy as well. Prophecy which you fight and war against with your Jesuit inspired interpretations suited to deny these very things. As the masters the Jesuits once served, who now serve them, are in fact the very apostate "Christian" institution which developed over time and scattered the power of the holy people. By polluting the new covenant temple or sanctuary which is the Church of Christ, with false doctrines, idol worship, worship of the dead, the mysteries, and so on and so forth.

Nevertheless, these are the truths you war against. Disregarding the vast testimonies left by the many Protestant Reformers identifying a great many of these apostasies along their way on the road out of Babylon. So be it. I will address more of your as I see it false interpretations as time allows. This post is already to long.