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Scripture says it plainly, when you die, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more, and await the resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ.

"19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." Genesis 3:19.

"21 Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be." Job 7:21.

"10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?..12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:10&12.

"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalm 115:17.

"4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." Psalm 146:4.

"19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This tells us that what happens to man and what happens to the beasts is the same, as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts. They all go to one place, which is the same. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.  Solomon decleares in Ecclesiastes:

"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don't think. They don't praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. The dead are in a completely unconscious state without thought or feeling, just as they would be if they were asleep.

Once people die, it's like if they were to fall into a deep coma or sleep. They aren't aware of anything at all, or passage of time in any form or communicating with those they left behind. If they return to dust as scripture says, its clear that the dead aren't taken straight to Heaven, or to Hell for that matter. If they were with God as soon as they died, there would be no need for a Savior or Christs death at the cross. And if they went straight to Hell, there would be no need for the Second Death at the Lake of Fire as the scripture clearly shows us.

"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15.

The wicked are not found in the book of life and only at the lake of fire at the end do they find their punishment.

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

Referring to death as a sleep is what we find throughout the Bible and when someone falls asleep, eventually they wake up again. So, what does it say in scripture as if the Bible describes death like a sleep, like something temporary, we can deduce that there must be some way to come back from death, to '"wake up," as it were. But how does one "wake up" from death?

"14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Luke 14:14.

The idea of resurrection, of someone "waking up" from the dead, is throughout the Bible. Elijah and Elisha, through the power of God, raised people from the dead. Jesus did the same during his time on earth, bringing back a widow's son, a young girl, and his dear friend Lazarus, proving that God's power is greater than death. He can get us out of this first death, from this deep coma or sleep in the grave, to life everlasting.

"24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24.

Its called the resurrection of the just which scripture tells us will happen at the Second Coming for saints and Christ has the power and has promised to call us from the grave like Lazarus and take us to heaven to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom.

"15 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25.

QuoteIts clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die..

What bible are you reading from? For sure not the word of God, or maybe I should ask~what voices are you listening to? Surely not God's voice.

QuotePhilippians 1:21~"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

QuotePhilippians 1:23~"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Is God the God of the dead or Living?

QuoteMatthew 22:32~I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living

Even the very scripture you quoted from in your confused post should have spoken to you showing your corruption of God's word.

QuoteJohn 11:24-26~"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Martha was a little confused, she thought her brother would live again at the resurrection, but Christ corrected her and told her that he is LIVING NOW and proved it by bringing Lazarus from being natural dead back to life again, KNOWING that Lazarus was living! Listen carefully to what Christ said:

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Precious in the sight of the Lord at the death of his saints, because they depart from this body of sin and death and go to be with God at death. Remember what Christ said to the thief on the cross?

Quote from: JESUS CHRISTLuke 23:46~"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

When Christ died he DID NOT go to hell as many teach.... his spirit went to Paradise. He commended his spirit to God and both he and the thief went straight to Paradise. His body later after three days and nights in hell (or the grave).

Ellen G. White is a false prophetess. You need to listen to the scriptures, not her.

The real question here is whether there is an intermediate state of being between physical death of the body and the resurrection at the second coming when Jesus comes again.  I think there is significant scripture to suggest that intermediate state exists and is what Jesus referred to when He told the thief on the cross "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).  I think there is sufficient scripture to believe that Paradise and Heaven are two different states of being for the saved who have died physically.  I would note here that Paradise is not the Purgatory that is promoted by the RCC. The ultimate destination of every individual is firmly established at the time of physical death. The main RCC proof text for purgatory is not evenin the canonical Bible; but is instead in 2 Maccabees.

But the whole discussion of an intermediate state is, I think, a bit too complicated to present in a forum such as this. It gets into the question of the meaning of "time" in the spiritual world if such a thing even exists.  And that in itself is enough to boggle the minds of us physical beings.

QuoteEllen G. White is a false prophetess. You need to listen to the scriptures, not her.

Mat 7:15  Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mar 13:22  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Luk 6:26  Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Yes there are many false prophets in the world. In the end, God will reveal who the false prophets concerning this issue are and were. The millions who have believed as EGW did, a great many long before her and millions still today apart from her teachings, or the millions who have and do believe as you. So be it as God determines. We are all looking at the same book. Some of us are just choosing deception over truth.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jul 31, 2022 - 10:19:34We are all looking at the same book. Some of us are just choosing deception over truth.

Interesting that it seems you chose to include yourself in the "some of us" who are choosing deception of truth.  I think that is correct, but still surprised that you did.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jul 31, 2022 - 13:08:08
Interesting that it seems you chose to include yourself in the "some of us" who are choosing deception of truth.  I think that is correct, but still surprised that you did.

I include myself in the, "we are all looking at the same book category".  Not the, "choosing deception over truth category". Nor does anyone else for that matter, most likely. Nevertheless, God will determine right from wrong, and separate lies from the truth. At that time it will not matter what anyone thinks. God is, and what He determines will be. Those who have determined otherwise will not be. End of story.

Quote from: Amo on Wed Aug 03, 2022 - 02:06:48
I include myself in the, "we are all looking at the same book category".  Not the, "choosing deception over truth category".

Whatever you intended, your grammar indicated you were.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Aug 03, 2022 - 14:20:26
Whatever you intended, your grammar indicated you were.

Actually, he was responding to -

QuoteWe are all looking at the same book. Some of us are just choosing deception over truth.

Yea, I am known to be a repeat grammar offender.

This concept of soul sleep comes from anti-Trinitarian sects, predominantly those groups who didn't have a Church to return to after it was discovered William Miller's message was a lie. William Miller admitted his error and told his followers to return to their Churches - leaving ONLY the folks that didn't have a Church to return to (Like Ellen White's parents). What was left was primarly anti-Trinitarians who soon started to squabble over what doctrines should they should have.

The squabbling soon started a fracture of the core ant-Trinitarians into sub sects thus creating the various Adventist groups you see today such as the Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day, Jehovah's Witnesses and of course the SDA's.

A Jehovah's Witness or a Christadelphian IS AN ADVENTIST, they're just not "Seventh-day" Adventist.

All these groups are anti-Trinitarian, all of them teach soul sleep as well as deny that there is now or will be a hell as taught by historic Christianity.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun May 14, 2023 - 08:45:37
This concept of soul sleep comes from anti-Trinitarian sects, predominantly those groups who didn't have a Church to return to after it was discovered William Miller's message was a lie. William Miller admitted his error and told his followers to return to their Churches - leaving ONLY the folks that didn't have a Church to return to (Like Ellen White's parents). What was left was primarly anti-Trinitarians who soon started to squabble over what doctrines should they should have.

The squabbling soon started a fracture of the core ant-Trinitarians into sub sects thus creating the various Adventist groups you see today such as the Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day, Jehovah's Witnesses and of course the SDA's.

A Jehovah's Witness or a Christadelphian IS AN ADVENTIST, they're just not "Seventh-day" Adventist.

All these groups are anti-Trinitarian, all of them teach soul sleep as well as deny that there is now or will be a hell as taught by historic Christianity.

WRONG! again. Gobs of misinformation. William miller was a Baptist, Baptists believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. As did most of the denominations of Miller's day. From among whom, a great many who accepted his prophetic interpretation, came. SDA's also believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Many just do not accept this or that particular brand of trinitarian explanation or doctrine. Or subscribe to the Nicene Creed.

As far as squabbling goes, perhaps we should review the squabbling, bloodshed, and wars involved in the trinitarian debates up to the establishment of the Nicene Creed and afterward. You have no ground to stand upon, in decrying squabbles, as your institution has been involved in major, violent, bloody, and murderous squabbles many times throughout its history. The squabbles you speak of in Miller's day, were simply debates concerning correct doctrine or not. Not the violent, murderous, bloody conflicts and wars your institution has been directly involved in many times over in establishing its doctrines by law over and above many who have disagreed. I advise you not to go in this direction, as it will not end well for you or your institution.

As far as your claim that soul sleep is a new doctrine, this is mis-information as well. Shall I quote concerning the many who have believed in this throughout history again, as I have many times already. We'll start with Martin Luther if you like, you know that heretic. Whom your denomination excommunicated and intended to kill, as they did many others of his day for disagreeing with them. Soul sleep is not really an accurate description of the belief in any case. People are living souls, when they are dead there is not soul. The state is similar to sleep, which is why scripture employs this exact description many times over, but never calls it soul sleep. But hey, when you are all about mis-information to begin with, why not use phrases that are not accurate at all as well.

William Miller was a Baptist who attracted folks from about every denomination to his movement...
...Miller movement was ONLY - repent because Jesus is coming at a definite time x3.
...Miller renounced his errors and told the people following him to return to their churches.

Everyone did this except the people who didn't have a Church to go back to - the two things that united this left over group..
...Was the rejection of the Trinity Doctrine  - folks from the Christian connexion and other heretical sects.
...THESE were the folks that stayed.

This group soon started to argue about what was to be adopted for beliefs and the fracturing soon followed....
...Out of this group of anti-Trinitarians came the JW's, the SDA's, the WWCOG 7th day and others.
...Not one of them accepted the Trinity Doctrine.

Sabbath Herald, June 13, 1871
"We invite all to compare THE TESTIMONIES of the Holy Spirit THROUGH Mrs. White with the word of God. And in this we do not invite you to compare them with your creed. That is quite another thing. The TRINITARIAN may compare them with his creed, and because THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH IT, CONDEMN them [ the testimonies of Mrs.
White ]."

Luther did not believe in soul sleep. This is a classic Adventist (Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphian and SDA) CANARD.

while its true that Luther did make some statements supportive of soul sleep  that's NOT where he ended up in belief so feel free to post some quotes from Luther that support your position and I'll do the same - see how it works out.

In the end I don't believe this issue to be a fraction of the importance as the Trinity - compared to the Trinity what happens after we die isn't that big of a matter.

QuoteLuther did not believe in soul sleep. This is a classic Adventist (Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphian and SDA) CANARD.

while its true that Luther did make some statements supportive of soul sleep  that's NOT where he ended up in belief so feel free to post some quotes from Luther that support your position and I'll do the same - see how it works out.

MARTIN LUTHER AND DEATH

TO HIS SICK FATHER, HANS LUTHER February 16, 1530.

To my dear father, Hans Luther, burgher of Mansfeld. Grace and peace! My brother Jacob has written saying how ill you are. I am very anxious about you, as things seem so black everywhere just now. For although God has hitherto blessed you with good health, still your advanced age fills me with concern. I would have come to you had I not been dissuaded from tempting God by running into temptation, for you know how interested both lords and all are in my welfare. It would be a great joy to us if my mother and you would come here. My Kathie and all ask this with tears;
and we would nurse you tenderly. I have sent Cyriac to see if you are able. For I should like to be near you, and, in obedience to the Fifth Commandment, cherish you with child-like kindness to show my gratitude to God and you. Meantime I pray God to keep you through His Spirit, so that you may discern the teaching of His Son, who has called you out of the blackness of error to preserve you to Christ's joyous appearing. For He has set this seal to your faith, that He has brought much shame, contempt, and enmity upon you for my sake.

For, these are the true signs of our likeness to Christ, for as St. Paul says, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him." So remember in your weakness that we have an Advocate with the Father who died to take away our sins, and now sits with the angels, waiting for us, so that when our hour comes to leave the world we need not fear being lost, His power over death and sin being so complete. He who cannot lie has said, "Ask, and ye shall receive." And the Psalms are full of such precious promises, especially the 91st., which is so suited for sick people. I write thus because of your illness, and as we do not know the hour...so that I may be a partaker of your faith, conflict, and consolation, and gratitude to God for His Holy Word, which He has so abundantly bestowed on us at this time. If it be His Divine Will not to transplant you at once to that better life, but let you remain a little longer with us for the help of others, then He will give you grace to accept your lot in an obedient spirit.

For this life is truly a vale of tears, where the longer one remains the more wickedness and misery one sees; and this never ceases till the hour of our departure sounds and we fall asleep in Jesus, till He comes and gives us a joyful awaking. Amen! I herewith commit you to Him who loves you better than you do yourself, having paid the penalty of your sins with His blood, so that you need have no anxiety. Leave Him to see to everything. He will do all well, and has already done so in a far higher degree than we can imagine.

May this dear Savior be with you, and we shall shortly meet again with Christ, as the departure from this world is a much smaller thing with God than if I said farewell to you in Mansfeld to come here, or if you bade adieu to me in Wittenberg to return to Mansfield. It is only a case of one short hour's sleep, and then all will be changed.

I hope your pastors render you faithful service in such matters, so that my chatter may not be needed, but I could not refrain from apologizing for my bodily absence, which is a great trial to me. My Kathie, Hanschen, Lenchen, Muhme Lene, all salute you and pray for you. Give my love to my dear mother and all the relations.
Your dear son,
MARTIN LUTHER.


TO FRIEDRICH MYCONIUS - Myconius had just returned from Leipsic. He had been overworked, and wrote to Luther, his dearest friend on earth, in his weakness. This is Luther's answer. Long after, Myconius wrote that the effect of this letter was magical. Myconius survived Luther and was a comfort to many.

January 9, 1541.

To the honored Friedrich, Bishop of the Church in Gotha and of the Thuringian Churches, my beloved brother. Grace and peace in Christ! I have received your letter, my dear Herr Friedrich, in which you say you are sick unto death, or, to express it in a more Christian manner, sick unto life.
Although it is a great joy to me that you are able to look forward so peacefully and fearlessly to death, which, according to the Scriptures, is not a death, but a sweet sleep to the saints — nay, that you have a great longing to depart and be with Christ, in which frame of mind we believers should always be not only upon a sick-bed, but in perfect health, as beseemeth Christians who have been made alive again with Christ, and placed with Him in heavenly places, who will be the Judge of the angels, till all that remains to be done is the drawing aside of the veil of separation and of the dark world. Although it is a great joy to hear all this, still I beg and plead with the Lord Jesus, our Life, Salvation, and Health, that He will not permit this misfortune to overtake me, that I should live to see you get in advance of me by the veil being pushed aside and you entering into rest, leaving me behind in an evil world, the prey of wild beasts and devils, from whom I have suffered enough for over twenty years, to merit being released before all of you, and allowed to fall asleep in the Lord. Therefore I plead that the dear God would smite me with illness instead of you, and command me to lay aside this weary, worn-out frame, which can henceforth benefit no one. I earnestly admonish you to join us in imploring the dear God, for the good of His Church and the discomfiture of Satan, to maintain you in life. For Christ, our Life, also sees what manner of persons and gifts His Church now and then requires.

After waiting five weeks we have received letters from Worms, some of which George Rorer will send you. God be praised our party is doing everything in a wise, straightforward way, while our opponents are acting foolishly and childishly, full of cunning and lies, from which we may gather that Satan, seeing the approach of dawn, wriggles into a thousand corners, seeking refuge in subterfuge and lies, but all in vain, for glory, power, and victory belong to the Lamb who was slain and rose again. We hope our people may soon return from Worms. May all go well with you, my dear Friedrich, and may the Lord not permit me to hear that you are dead, but allow you to survive me.

This shall be my petition, this is my desire, and my will shall be done. Amen. For my will seeks the honor of the Divine name, and not my own honor and pleasure. Once more farewell in the Lord. We pray earnestly for you. My Kathie greets you, she, like all of us, being much distressed at your illness.

MARTIN LUTHER.



TO NICOLAS AMSDORF - Reply to letter of consolation on Magdalene's death.

October 29, 1542.

Grace and peace! Many thanks, most excellent friend, for trying to console me on my dearest daughter's death. I loved her not only because she was my flesh, but for her placid and gentle spirit and her dutifulness to me. But now I rejoice that she is sleeping sweetly in her Heavenly Father's home till that day. Alas, for the days in which we live! And they are daily becoming worse. I pray that we and all dear to us may be granted such a blessed hour of departure as was her lot. I would call this really sleeping in the Lord, not experiencing one pang of fear. This is the time of which Isaiah speaks, "The righteous is taken away from the evil to come; they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness," just as when one gathers the wheat into the barn, and commits the chaff to the flames, a punishment the world has deserved for her ingratitude. Truly it is a Sodom. I should like to write you oftener, but you write so seldom. I agree with you as to the reports about Heinz's judgments and threats. Your Meissen people are become a byword through this man at Merseburg, where they portray themselves as so courageous and us so timid. The war prospects give good reason for fear. I never thought we could achieve anything against the Turks except squander our money and reap ridicule. What could God accomplish with such tools? So we must pray without ceasing that He would overcome this monstrosity, even as He did with the Papacy, with all its abominations. Did you get my letter asking for a post for Dr. Hieronymus Weller, who complains of the indifference of the Freiberg people to the Divine Word? But as things are not yet settled with you, this request may come at an inopportune time.

Comfort yourself in the Lord and be steadfast, for you are Christ's servant, who called you to this post, even if you merely remain quietly in your place, preventing the devil occupying it, although you should do nothing more all your life.

And thus how much more are you His servants when you are not only not idle, but maintain a constant conflict, and purify the people from sin through the Word of God. I commit you to God. My Kathie greets you, although she often breathes a sigh over the memory of her beloved and obedient daughter.
MARTIN LUTHER.



WATCHWORDS FOR THE WARFARE OF LIFE - by Martin Luther

Small Intimations of Immortality.

HEREIN is indicated the soul's immortality, in that no creature save only man can understand and measure the heavenly bodies. Animals do not consider and analyze the water they drink. This upward contemplation of his indicates that man was not made to live always in this lower part of the world, but that hereafter he should possess the heavens.

DEATH, in men, is in infinite and countless ways more mournful than in animals without reason. For man is a creature that was not created for this, but to live in obedience to the Divine Word, and in the likeness of God. Man was not created to die.

"DEAR brothers," said Dr. Martin Luther, "despise the devil. For He who was nailed to the cross has crucified him; so likewise if he crucifies us, we on the other hand, shall crucify him, even with that cross wherewith he crucifies us."

THANK God, the devil has never been able altogether to vanquish me; he has burnt himself out on Christ. He says, "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world; the sting of death has been worn out and blunted on Me, yea, altogether broken."

IN the year 1538, on the 21st of October, Dr. Martin Luther made a public exhortation in the church, severely blaming those who were so fearful, and made such a clamor and cry about the Plague.

"We should be of good cheer in the Lord; and should trust Him," said he, "and each of us abide and walk in his own calling, and if our neighbors need our help and assistance, not desert them. We ought not to be so sore afraid of death; for we have the Word of life, and we cleave to the Lord of life, who for our sake has overcome death."

SINCE now He has been laid beneath this earth, and has been buried, henceforth the graves of all Christians become sanctuaries, and wherever a Christian rests, there rests the sacred body of a Saint.

The Damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. THIS place is very remarkable, that our Lord Himself calls death nothing else than sleep, which is a glorious consolation for all who believe. For Christ does not only say that the dead maiden sleeps; He proves by facts that she sleeps, in that He speaks to her with soft, gentle words, as to awaken her from sleep.

This wisdom none of the world's wise men have reached; endless questions they have raised, but here all the questions are answered in one word, "She sleeps."

If she sleeps, where art thou, O Death?

Death is no death to the Christian, but really a sleep. Yes, even the place where Christians are buried is called koi mhthrion, that is, a sleepingchamber. A MAN who lies asleep is much like one who is dead. Therefore the ancient sages said, "Sleep is the brother of Death."

So also Death and Life are pictured and signified in the revolutions and transformations of day and night, and of all creatures. SLEEP is verily a death, and, equally, death is a sleep. Our death is nothing but a night's sleep.

In sleep all weariness passes away, and we rise again in the morning joyous, fresh, and strong.

So at the last Day shall we arise from our graves as if we had only slept a night, be fresh and strong, bathe our eyes (as in morning dew), and all weakness, corruption, and dishonor shall vanish from us forever. IF Cicero could nobly console himself and take courage against death, how much more should we Christians, who have a Lord who is the Destroyer of death, who has vanquished him, namely, Christ the Son of God, who is the Resurrection and the Life.

AND if we would fain live a little longer, what a little while it is at the longest! Just as if several of us were journeying over the Duben Heath to Leipzig, and some arrived at four o'clock, some at seven or eight, some at evening; yet all had to be there before night. Thus our first forefather arrived a few hours before us. But even he will have rested no longer than one night, like ourselves.

WE must submit to death; but the miracle is that whosoever keeps to God's Word shall not feel death, but pass hence as one falling asleep. No more should it be said of such an one, Morior, sed cogor dormire ; no more "I die," but, "I am constrained to sleep."

"I KNOW I shall not live long," he said; "my brain is like a knife in which the steel is quite worn out, and there is nothing but iron left. The iron can cut no more. So it is with my brain. Now, Oh my dear Lord! I hope, and am persuaded, that the hour of my departure is at hand.

"At Cobourg I used to go about and seek a place where they might bury me; and I thought I could rest well in the Chapel, beneath the Cross. But now I am weaker than I was at Cobourg. God help me, and give me a gracious, blessed departure. I desire not to live any longer."

ON the 22nd of July, in the year 1533, Dr. Martin Luther said, at table, to Duke John Frederic, Elector of Saxony, "It is a far more terrible thing when a prince dies than when a peasant dies, who is thought nothing of. "A prince has to be abandoned of all his friends and nobles, and at
last must enter into single combat with the devil. Then there will be no help in remembering that one has lived in a princely style." DEATH for the sake of Christ's name and Word is held precious and glorious before God; for we are mortal, and must die in one way or another, on account of sin. But if we can die for the sake of Christ's Word, and the free confession of it, we die a most honorable death; we become altogether sacred; we have sold our life dear enough.

We who are Christians pray for peace and a long life; not for our own sakes, for to such death is pure gain; but for the sake of the Church and those who come after us.( pages 167-169)


SERMONS OF MARTIN LUTHER VOL. 1 - SERMONS ON GOSPEL TEXTS FOR ADVENT, CHRISTMAS & EPIPHANY - by Martin Luther

Behold, this is the great joy, to which the prophet invites, when he says: "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!" This is the righteousness and the salvation for which the Savior and King comes. These are the good works done for us by which he fulfills
the law. Hence the death of the believer in Christ is not death but a sleep, for he neither sees nor tastes death, as is said in <190408>Psalm 4:8: "In peace will I both lay me down and sleep, for thou, Jehovah, alone makest me dwell in safety." Therefore death is also called a sleep in the Scriptures.(pages 41&42)



SERMONS OF MARTIN LUTHER VOL. 2 - SERMONS ON GOSPEL TEXTS FOR EPIPHANY, LENT & EASTER - by Martin Luther

Now Christ means here that whoever clings to his Word will in the midst of death neither feel nor see death, as he also says in John 11:25: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me though he die, yet shall he live," that is, he will not experience real death. Here we see now what a glorious estate it is to be a Christian, who is already released from death forever and can never die. For his death or dying seems outwardly indeed like the dying of the godless, but inwardly there is a difference as great as between heaven and earth. For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever; thus we may see how some tremble, doubt and despair, and become senseless and raging in the midst of the perils of death. Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes; so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.(page 149)


SERMONS OF MARTIN LUTHER VOL. 5 - SERMONS ON THE GOSPEL TEXTS
FOR THE 13TH TO 26TH SUNDAYS AFTER TRINITY - by Martin Luther

Thus we should learn to view our death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, rest sweetly and gently for a brief moment, as on a sofa, until the time when he shall call and awaken us together with all his dear children to his eternal glory and joy. For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence, we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the clouds.

Therefore we should entrust and commend to our true Savior and Redeemer ourselves, body, soul and life, with all confidence and joy, just as we must commend to him our life without care in our bodily sleep and rest, assured that we shall not lose it, but be truly and carefully preserved in his hand, maintained and again restored. Here you see, as he shows in reality, how easy it is for him to awaken men from the dead and restore them to life, as he came to the maiden, took her by the hand, as some one else might do to awaken one from sleep, and with a word called, "Maid, arise!" and the maiden suddenly arose, as if she had been awakened from sleep. We see here neither sleep nor death, but wakefulness and freshness, even as Lazarus came forth from his tomb.

Behold, this Word of Christ is not a matter of laughter and foolishness to faith (as to others among the prudent and the saints according to the law, who nevertheless remain in fear and terror of death, have to do with their thoughts about death and works), but of great wisdom, by which death and all the images of death are swallowed up, and in their place true comfort, joy and life are obtained. The act and experience must assuredly follow this Word of Christ and faith in his Word cannot fail. Let this be regarded as a master-piece and a wonderful work of alchemy or a science, which indeed does not turn copper and lead into gold, but turns death into sleep, your grave into a soft sofa, the time from the death of Abel until the last day into a brief hour, a work which no creature has nor can attempt except through faith in Christ. If you can believe this, that is, let the Word of Christ be true and not a lie, you have already overcome both death and the sting of death, and in their place have obtained sweet rest.

Scripture everywhere affords such consolation, which speaks of the death of the saints, as if they fell asleep and were gathered to their fathers, that is, had overcome death through this faith and comfort in Christ, and awaited the resurrection, together with the saints who preceded them in death. Therefore the early Christians (undoubtedly from the Apostles or their disciples) followed the custom of bringing their dead to honorable burial and wherever possible interred them in separate places, which they called, not places of burial or grave-yards, but coemeteria, sleepingchambers, dormitoria, houses of sleep, names which have remained in use until our time; and we Germans from ancient times call such places of burial God's acres, as St. Paul, <461544>1 Corinthians 15:44, says: "It is sown a natural body;" for what we now call church-yards were not at first places of burial. This is the teaching and comfort of this Gospel lesson. (pages 319&320)


SERMONS OF MARTIN LUTHER VOL. 7 - SERMONS ON THE EPISTLE TEXTS
FOR EPIPHANY, EASTER & PENTECOST - by Martin Luther

God desires Christ's Word to be heard. Otherwise expressed, his command is: "Here ye have the Word of peace and salvation. Not elsewhere may you. seek and find these blessings. Cling to this Word if you desire peace, happiness and salvation. Let befall what may, crosses, afflictions, discord, death — whether you be beheaded, or fall victim to pest or stroke, or in whatever manner God may call you home — in it all, look only upon me, whose Word promises that you shall not die, what seems death being but a sweet sleep, ay, the entrance into life eternal Christ
says (John 8:51): "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my Word, he shall never see death."(page 176)


SERMONS OF MARTIN LUTHER VOL. 8 - SERMONS ON EPISTLE TEXTS FOR
TRINITY SUNDAY TO ADVENT - by Martin Luther

The other, the "little death," is that outward, physical death. In the Scriptures it is called a sleep. It is imposed upon the flesh, because, so long as we live on earth, the flesh never ceases to resist the spirit and its life. Paul says: "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would." Galatians 5:17. The spirit, or soul, says: I am dead unto sin and will not sin any more. But the flesh says: I am not dead and must make use of my life while I have it. The spirit declares: I believe that God has forgiven my sins and taken them away from me through Christ. But the flesh asks: What do I know of God or his will? The spirit resolves: I must be meek, pure, chaste, humble, patient, and seek the future life. But the flesh in reply makes a loud outcry: Away with your heaven! If only I had enough of bread and money and property here! Thus the flesh does continually, as long as it lives here; it draws and drags sin after itself; it is rebellious and refuses to die. Therefore God must finally put it to death before it becomes dead unto sin.

And after all, it is but a gentle and easy death. It is truly only a sleep. Since soul and spirit are no longer dead, the body shall not remain dead; it shall come forth again, cleansed and purified, on the last day, to be united with the soul. Then shall it be a gentle, pure and obedient body, without sin or evil lust.

These words of Paul are an admirable Christian picture of death, representing it not as an awful thing, but as something comforting and pleasant to contemplate. For how could Paul present a more attractive description than when he describes it as stripped of its power and repulsiveness and makes it the medium through which we attain life and joy? What is more desirable than to be freed from sin and the punishment and misery it involves, and to possess a joyful, cheerful heart and conscience? For where there is sin and real death — the sense of sin and God's wrath — there are such terror and dismay that man feels like rushing through iron walls. Christ says, in Luke 23:30, quoting from the prophet Hosea (Hosea 10:8), that such a one shall pray that the mountains and the hills may fall on him and cover him.

That dreadful death which is called in the Scriptures the second death is taken away from the Christian through Christ, and is swallowed up in his life. In place of it there is left a miniature death, a death in which the bitterness is covered up. In it the Christian dies according to the flesh; that is, he passes from unbelief to faith, from the remaining sin to eternal righteousness, from woes and sadness and tribulation to perfect eternal joy. Such a death is sweeter and better than any life on earth. For not all the life and wealth and delight and joy of the world can make man as happy as he will be when he dies with a conscience at peace with God and with the sure faith and comfort of everlasting life. Therefore truly may this death of the body be said to be only a falling into a sweet and gentle slumber. The body ceases from sin. It no longer hinders or harasses the spirit. It is cleansed and freed from sin and comes forth again in the resurrection clothed with the obedience, joy and life which the spirit imparts.

The only trouble is that the stupid flesh cannot understand this. It is terrified by the mask of death, and imagines that it is still suffering the old death; for it does not understand the spiritual dying unto sin. It judges only by outward appearance. It sees that man perishes, decays under the ground and is consumed. Having only this abominable and hideous mask before its eyes, it is afraid of death. But its fear is only because of its lack of understanding. If it knew, it would by no means be afraid or shudder at death. Our reason is like a little child who has become frightened by a bugbear or a mask, and cannot be lulled to sleep; or like a poor man, bereft of his senses, who imagines when brought to his couch that he is being put into the water and drowned. What we do not understand we cannot intelligently deal with. If, for instance, a man has a penny and imagines it to be a five-dollar gold piece, he is just as proud of it as if it were a real gold piece; if he loses it he is as grieved as if he had lost that more valuable coin. But it does not follow that he has suffered such loss; he has simply deluded himself with a false idea.

Thus it is not the reality of death and burial that terrifies; the terror lies in the flesh and blood, which cannot understand that death and the grave mean nothing more than that God lays us — like a little child is laid in a cradle or an easy bed — where we shall sweetly sleep till the judgment day. Flesh and blood shudders in fear at that which gives no reason for it, and finds comfort and joy in that which really gives no comfort or joy. Thus Christians must be harassed by their ignorant and insane flesh, because it will not understand its own good or harm. They must verily fight against it as long as they live, at the cost of much pain and weariness.

There is none so perfect that he does not flee from and shudder at death and the grave. Paul complains and confesses of himself, and in his own person of all Christians: "For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practice." Romans 7:15. In other words: By the spirit, I am well aware that when this body comes to die God simply lays me to rest in sweetest slumber, and I would gladly have my flesh to understand this; but I cannot bring it to it. The spirit indeed is willing and desires bodily death as a gentle sleep. It does not consider it to be death; it knows no such thing as death. It knows that it is freed from sin and that where there is no sin there is no death — life only. But the flesh halts and hesitates, and is in constant dread lest I die and perish in the abyss. It will not allow itself to be tamed and brought into that obedience and into that consoling view of death which the spirit exercises. Even Saint Paul cries out in anxiety of spirit: "Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?" Romans 7:24. Now we see what is meant by the statement, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit." The flesh must be dragged along and compelled by the spirit to obediently follow, in spite of its resistance and trembling. It must be forced into submission until it is finally overcome. Just so the mother so deals with the child that is fretful and restless that she constrains it to sleep.

Paul says, "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified" — that is, we know that, in soul and spirit, we are already dead unto sin — "that the body of sin might be done away." The meaning is: Because the body does not willingly and cheerfully follow the spirit, but resists and would fain linger in the old life of sin, it is already sentenced, compelled to follow and to be put to death that sin may be destroyed in it.

He does not say that the body is destroyed as soon as a man has been baptized and is become a Christian, but that the body of sin is destroyed. The body which before was obstinate and disobedient to the spirit is now changed; it is no longer a body of sin but of righteousness and newness of life. So he adds, "that we should no longer be in bondage to sin." "But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him; knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth, no more; death no more hath dominion over him. For the death that he died, he died unto sin once; but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God."

Here he leads us out of the death and grave of sin to the resurrection of spirit and body. When we die — spiritually unto sin, and physically to the world and self — what doth it profit us? Is there nothing else in store for the Christian but to die and be buried.? By all means yes, he says; we are sure by faith that we also shall live, even as Christ rose from death and the grave and lives. For we have died with him, or, as stated above, "we have become united with him in the likeness of his death." By his death he has destroyed our sin and death; therefore we share in his resurrection and life. There shall be no more sin and death in our spirit or body, just as there is no more death in him. Christ, having once died and been raised again, dieth no more. There is nothing to die for. He has accomplished everything. He has destroyed the sin for which he died, and has swallowed up death in victory. And that he now lives means that he lives in everlasting righteousness, life and majesty. So, when ye have once passed through both deaths, the spiritual death unto sin and the gentle death of the body, death can no more touch you, no more reign over you.

This, then, is our comfort for the timidity of the poor, weak flesh which still shudders at death. If thou art a Christian, then know that thy Lord Jesus Christ, being raised from the dead, dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Therefore, death hath no more dominion over thee, who art baptized into him. Satan is defied and dared to try all his powers and terrors on Christ; for we are assured, "Death no more hath dominion over him." Death may awaken anger, malice, melancholy, fear and terror in our poor, weak flesh, but it hath no more dominion over Christ. On the contrary, death must submit to the dominion of Christ, in his own person and in us. We have died unto sin; that is, we have been redeemed from the sting and power, the control, of death. Christ has fully accomplished the work by which he obtained power over death, and has bestowed that power upon us, that in him we should reign over death. So Paul says in conclusion:

"Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus." 33. "Reckon ye also yourselves," he says. Ye, as Christians, should be conscious of these things, and should conduct yourselves in all your walk and conversation as those who are dead to sin and who give evidence of it to the world. Ye shall not serve sin, shall not follow after it, as if it had dominion over you. Ye shall live in newness of life, which means that ye shall lead a godly life, inwardly, by faith and outwardly in your conduct; ye shall have power over sin until the flesh — the body — shall at last fall asleep, and thus both deaths be accomplished in you. Then there will remain nothing but life — no terror or fear of death and no more of its dominion.(pages 127-131)


Dr. Martin Luther posted his Theses on October 31, 1517 in Wittenberg. In his 1520 published Defence of 41 of his propositions, Luther cited the pope's immortality declaration, as among "those monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals."  The 27th proposition read:

"However, I permit the Pope establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithful - such are:
a) That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament;
b) that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated;
c) that the soul is the substantial form of the human body;
d) that he (the pope) is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god;
e) that the soul is immortal;
and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals - in order that such as his faith is, such may be his gospel, such also his faithful, and such his church, and that the lips may have suitable lettuce and the lid may be worthy of the dish."

Archbishop Francis Blackburne states:

"Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then he made use of it as a confutation of purgatory, and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment of his life."

MARTIN LUTHER, AND THE SLEEP OF THE DEAD

The following are excerpts from letters written by Martin Luther.


For although you were not of us, and rejected some of the principal points pertaining to everlasting blessedness, or hypocritically refused to give your opinion on the matter, still I shall not accuse you of obstinacy. What am I to do? The business is a bad one on both sides. If I be mediator, I would
ask these people to give up assailing you, and permit you, at your advanced age, to fall asleep in peace in the Lord. They would do this if they considered your weakness and the magnitude of the question at stake, which is far above your head.  ( LETTER TO ERASMUS OF ROTTERDAM Luther turns lovingly to Erasmus, and forgives him for his want of courage in espousing his cause. April 1524.)


To the Most Serene High-born Prince, Elector John. Grace and peace! Most gracious lord! M. Franciscus, the pastor in Lochau, has fallen asleep in God, and the people have asked — to be appointed. But I have referred them to your Grace, as I have nothing to do with that.  (LETTER TO THE ELECTOR JOHN  Request to appoint M. Stiefel as pastor in Lochau.  September 3, 1528)


For this life is truly a vale of tears, where the longer one remains the more wickedness and misery one sees; and this never ceases till the hour of our departure sounds and we fall asleep in Jesus, till He comes and gives us a joyful awaking. Amen! I herewith commit you to Him who loves you better than you do yourself, having paid the penalty of your sins with His blood, so that you need have no anxiety. Leave Him to see to everything. He will do all well, and has already done so in a far higher degree than we can imagine. 

May this dear Savior be with you, and we shall shortly meet again with Christ, as the departure from this world is a much smaller thing with God than if I said farewell to you in Mansfeld to come here, or if you bade adieu to me in Wittenberg to return to Mansfield. It is only a case of one short hour's sleep, and then all will be changed. ( LETTER TO HIS SICK FATHER, HANS LUTHER  February 16, 1530. )



This death has cast me into deep grief, not only because he was my father, but because it was through his deep love to me that my Creator endowed me with all I am and have, and although consoled to learn that he fell asleep softly in Christ Jesus, strong in faith, yet his loss has caused a deep
wound in my heart. Thus are the righteous taken away from the evil to come and enter into
rest.  (LETTER TO PHILIP MELANCHTHON Luther speaks of his father's death. June 5, 1530.)


To the honored Friedrich, Bishop of the Church in Gotha and of the Thuringian Churches, my beloved brother. Grace and peace in Christ! I have received your letter, my dear Herr Friedrich, in which you say you are sick unto death, or, to express it in a more Christian manner, sick unto life. Although it is a great joy to me that you are able to look forward so peacefully and fearlessly to death, which, according to the Scriptures, is not a death, but a sweet sleep to the saints — nay, that you have a great longing to depart and be with Christ, in which frame of mind we believers should always be not only upon a sick-bed, but in perfect health, as beseemeth Christians who have been made alive again with Christ, and placed with Him in heavenly places, who will be the Judge of the angels, till all that remains to be done is the drawing aside of the veil of separation and of the dark world. Although it is a great joy to hear all this, still I beg and plead with the Lord Jesus, our Life, Salvation, and Health, that He will not permit this misfortune to overtake me, that I should live to see you get in advance of me by the veil being pushed aside and you entering into rest, leaving me behind in an evil world, the prey of wild beasts and devils, from whom I have suffered enough for over twenty years, to merit being
released before all of you, and allowed to fall asleep in the Lord.[/u] Therefore I plead that the dear God would smite me with illness instead of you, and command me to lay aside this weary, worn-out frame, which can henceforth benefit no one. I earnestly admonish you to join us in imploring the dear God, for the good of His Church and the discomfiture of Satan, to maintain you in life. For Christ, our Life, also sees what manner of persons and gifts His Church now and then requires.  (LETTER TO FRIEDRICH MYCONIUSMyconius had just returned from Leipsic. He had been overworked, and wrote to Luther, his dearest friend on earth, in his weakness. This is Luther's answer. Long after, Myconius wrote that the effect of this letter was magical. Myconius survived Luther and was a comfort to many.  January 9, 1541.)



Grace and peace, my dear Marcus! I beg of you to conceal from my son John what I now write. My daughter Magdalene is nearing her end, and will soon depart to her true Father in heaven unless God see fit to spare her. She longs so to see her brother that I send a carriage to fetch him. They loved one another tenderly, so perhaps a sight of him will revive her. I do my best, so that my fatherly heart may not afterwards be torn by remorse. Desire him therefore, without telling him why, to return at once. I
shall send him back as soon as she has either fallen asleep in the Lord or been restored to health. Farewell in the Lord. Say to him we must have something private to communicate. All here are otherwise well. (LETTER TO MARCUS CRODEL Luther sends for his son to see his dying sister. September 6, 1542. )


Grace and peace! Many thanks, most excellent friend, for trying to console me on my dearest daughter's death. I loved her not only because she was my flesh, but for her placid and gentle spirit and her dutifulness to me. But now I rejoice that she is sleeping sweetly in her Heavenly Father's home till that day. Alas, for the days in which we live! And they are daily becoming worse. I pray that we and all dear to us may be granted such a blessed hour of departure as was her lot. I would call this really sleeping in the Lord, not experiencing one pang of fear. This is the time of which Isaiah speaks, "The righteous is taken away from the evil to come; they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness," just as when one gathers the wheat into the barn, and commits the chaff to the flames, a punishment the world has deserved for her ingratitude. Truly it is a Sodom. I should like to write you oftener, but you write so seldom. I agree with you as to the reports about Heinz's judgments and threats. Your Meissen people are become a byword through this man at Merseburg, where they portray themselves as so courageous and us so timid. The war prospects give good reason for fear. I never thought we could achieve anything against the Turks except squander our money and reap ridicule. What could God accomplish with such tools? So we must pray without ceasing that He would overcome this monstrosity, even as He did with the Papacy, with all its abominations. Did you get my letter asking for a post for Dr.  (LETTER TO NICOLAS AMSDORF Reply to letter of consolation on Magdalene's death. October 29, 1542.)



The following is taken from- WATCHWORDS FOR THE WARFARE OF LIFE by Martin Luther

The Damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

THIS place is very remarkable, that our Lord Himself calls death nothing else than sleep, which is a glorious consolation for all who believe. For Christ does not only say that the dead maiden sleeps; He proves by facts that she sleeps, in that He speaks to her with soft, gentle words, as to awaken her from sleep.

This wisdom none of the world's wise men have reached; endless questions they have raised, but here all the questions are answered in one word, "She sleeps."

If she sleeps, where art thou, O Death? Death is no death to the Christian, but really a sleep. Yes, even the place where Christians are buried is called koi mhthrion, that is, a sleepingchamber.

A MAN who lies asleep is much like one who is dead. Therefore the ancient sages said, "Sleep is the brother of Death."

So also Death and Life are pictured and signified in the revolutions and transformations of day and night, and of all creatures.

SLEEP is verily a death, and, equally, death is a sleep. Our death is nothing but a night's sleep.

In sleep all weariness passes away, and we rise again in the morning joyous, fresh, and strong.

So at the last Day shall we arise from our graves as if we had only slept a night,[//u] be fresh and strong, bathe our eyes (as in morning dew), and all weakness, corruption, and dishonor shall vanish from us forever.

IF Cicero could nobly console himself and take courage against death, how much more should we Christians, who have a Lord who is the Destroyer of death, who has vanquished him, namely, Christ the Son of God, who is the Resurrection and the Life.

AND if we would fain live a little longer, what a little while it is at the longest! Just as if several of us were journeying over the Duben Heath to Leipzig, and some arrived at four o'clock, some at seven or eight, some at evening; yet all had to be there before night. Thus our first forefather arrived a few hours before us. But even he will have rested no longer than one night, like ourselves.

WE must submit to death; but the miracle is that whosoever keeps to God's Word shall not feel death, but pass hence as one falling asleep. No more should it be said of such an one, Morior, sed cogor dormire ; no more "I die," but, "I am constrained to sleep."[//u]

"I KNOW I shall not live long," he said; "my brain is like a knife in which the steel is quite worn out, and there is nothing but iron left. The iron can cut no more. So it is with my brain. Now, Oh my dear Lord! I hope, and am persuaded, that the hour of my departure is at hand.

"At Cobourg I used to go about and seek a place where they might bury me; and I thought I could rest well in the Chapel, beneath the Cross. But now I am weaker than I was at Cobourg. God help me,
and give me a gracious, blessed departure. I desire not to live any longer."

ON the 22nd of July, in the year 1533, Dr. Martin Luther said, at table, to Duke John Frederic, Elector of Saxony, "It is a far more terrible thing when a prince dies than when a peasant dies, who is thought nothing of.

"A prince has to be abandoned of all his friends and nobles, and at last must enter into single combat with the devil. Then there will be no help in remembering that one has lived in a princely style."

DEATH for the sake of Christ's name and Word is held precious and glorious before God; for we are mortal, and must die in one way or another, on account of sin. But if we can die for the sake of Christ's Word, and the free confession of it, we die a most honorable death; we become altogether sacred; we have sold our life dear enough.

We who are Christians pray for peace and a long life; not for our own sakes, for to such death is pure gain; but for the sake of the Church and those who come after us.

Amo, thank you for your VERBOSE copy-N-paste apologetic claiming that Luther denied the immortality of the soul...

1st,
Luther didn't reject the immortality of the soul, he confirmed it, repeatedly.

Read Luther's comments on Psalms 21,9. "Constantly the damned will be judged, constantly they will suffer pain, and constantly they will be a fiery oven, that is, they will be tortured within by supreme distress and tribulation" AND Luther's comments on Matthew 22, 1-4, "their hands and feet shall be tied, and they shall be cast into outermost darkness, that is, they must eternally lie captive with the devil in hell-fire".

Feel Free to translate: https://archive.org/details/werkekritischege05luthuoft/page/590/mode/1up?view=theater
Feel Free to translate: https://archive.org/details/werkekritischege52luthuoft/page/513/mode/1up?view=theater


That takes care of the damned / lost part of this question....
...What about the saved - those who have died prior to the resurrection of the body?

"For how is Abraham a servant of God after his death? Will God not be able eventually to forget Abraham? Today he certainly still serves God, just as Adam, Abel, and Noah serve God. And this must be carefully noted; for it is divine truth that Abraham is living, serving God, and ruling with Him. But what the nature of that life is, whether he is asleep or awake, is another question. We do not have to know how the soul rests. It is certain that it is alive." [LW 5:74].

&

"But now another question arises. Since it is certain that the souls are living and are in peace, what kind of life or rest is this? But this question is too lofty and too difficult for us to be able to define it. For God did not want us to know this in this life. Thus it is enough for us to know that souls do not go out of their bodies into the danger of tortures and punishments of hell, but that there is ready for them a chamber in which they may sleep in peace.

"Nevertheless, there is a difference between the sleep or rest of this life and that of the future life. For toward night a person who has become exhausted by his daily labor in this life enters into his chamber in peace, as it were, to sleep there; and during this night he enjoys rest and has no knowledge whatever of any evil caused either by fire or by murder. But the soul does not sleep in the same manner. It is awake. It experiences visions and the discourses of the angels and of God. Therefore the sleep in the future life is deeper than it is in this life. Nevertheless, the soul lives before God. With this analogy, which I have from the sleep of a living person, I am satisfied; for in him there is peace and quiet. He thinks that he has slept barely one or two hours, and yet he sees that the soul sleeps in such a manner that it also is awake."[LW 4:313].

Martin Luther was offended that the 5th Lateran Council declared that the soul was immortal and Luther's position was that only a godless serpent would be so brash as to declare something the word of God so clearly taught from the beginning of the Bible - in fact Luther's argument at the time was that none of the Papists in Rome believed in the the immortality of the soul so the Pope had to declare it to be an article of faith - because the Papists were akin to the Sadducees who denied the immortality of the soul, angels AND the resurrection - dispite that this is taught in the very Creed every Christian repeated multiple times a week.

"When the last Lateran council was to be concluded in Rome under Pope Leo, among other articles it was decreed that one must believe the soul to be immortal.  From this one may gather that they make eternal life an object of sheer mockery and contempt. In this way they confess that it is a common belief among them that there is no eternal life, but that they now wish to proclaim this by means of a bull." (LW 47:37)

&

"Although some of the philosophers, like Socrates and others, maintain the immortality of the soul, they were ridiculed by the rest of the philosophers and all but scorned. But isn't it folly for human reason to be so offended, since it sees that even now the procreation of man is full of wonder? Does it not seem contrary to reason that man, who is to live forever, is born, as it were, from one single droplet of semen in the loins of the father? This is even more absurd than when Moses says that man was formed from a clod by the fingers of God. But reason shows in this way that it knows practically nothing about God, who, merely by a thought, makes out of a clod, not the semen of a human being but the human being itself, and, as Moses states later, makes the woman out of the rib of the man. Such was the origin of man." (LW 1:84)

"The philosophers have indeed disputed about the immortality of the soul, but so coldly that they seem to be setting forth mere fables. Aristotle above all argues about the soul in such a way that he diligently and shrewdly avoids discussing its immortality anywhere; nor did he want to express what he thought about it.  Plato related what he had heard rather than his own opinion.  Nor can its immortality be proved by any human reason, for it is not a thing "under the sun" to believe that the soul is immortal. In the world it is neither seen nor understood as certain that souls are immortal." (LW 15:59)

If you would like to give me an email I can send you a page from Luther's works volume 4 / his lectures on Genesis / page 313 so you can see it for yourself and finally be rid of the Adventist Cannard that Martin Luther believed as Adventists do whereas the state of the dead is concerned. If you don't want to get the book for yourself you can always contact a Lutheran Synod and speak to a Professor there, let them know Luther denied the Immortality of the Soul and was a proto SDA, see how that goes.

"But the soul does NOT SLEEP in the same manner. IT IS AWAKE. IT EXPERIENCES VISIONS AND THE DISCOURSES OF THE ANGELS AND OF GOD. THEREFORE THE SLEEP IN THE FUTURE LIFE IS DEEPER THAN IT IS IN THIS LIFE".

Invest in some of Luther's Work's, I have a couple myself....
...It may prevent you from making future VERBOSE posts that are only accurate in Adventist (JW, SDA Christadelphian circles).
...Best wishes man.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue May 16, 2023 - 21:07:15
Amo, thank you for your VERBOSE copy-N-paste apologetic claiming that Luther denied the immortality of the soul...

1st,
Luther didn't reject the immortality of the soul, he confirmed it, repeatedly.

Read Luther's comments on Psalms 21,9. "Constantly the damned will be judged, constantly they will suffer pain, and constantly they will be a fiery oven, that is, they will be tortured within by supreme distress and tribulation" AND Luther's comments on Matthew 22, 1-4, "their hands and feet shall be tied, and they shall be cast into outermost darkness, that is, they must eternally lie captive with the devil in hell-fire".

Feel Free to translate: https://archive.org/details/werkekritischege05luthuoft/page/590/mode/1up?view=theater
Feel Free to translate: https://archive.org/details/werkekritischege52luthuoft/page/513/mode/1up?view=theater


That takes care of the damned / lost part of this question....
...What about the saved - those who have died prior to the resurrection of the body?

"For how is Abraham a servant of God after his death? Will God not be able eventually to forget Abraham? Today he certainly still serves God, just as Adam, Abel, and Noah serve God. And this must be carefully noted; for it is divine truth that Abraham is living, serving God, and ruling with Him. But what the nature of that life is, whether he is asleep or awake, is another question. We do not have to know how the soul rests. It is certain that it is alive." [LW 5:74].

&

"But now another question arises. Since it is certain that the souls are living and are in peace, what kind of life or rest is this? But this question is too lofty and too difficult for us to be able to define it. For God did not want us to know this in this life. Thus it is enough for us to know that souls do not go out of their bodies into the danger of tortures and punishments of hell, but that there is ready for them a chamber in which they may sleep in peace.

"Nevertheless, there is a difference between the sleep or rest of this life and that of the future life. For toward night a person who has become exhausted by his daily labor in this life enters into his chamber in peace, as it were, to sleep there; and during this night he enjoys rest and has no knowledge whatever of any evil caused either by fire or by murder. But the soul does not sleep in the same manner. It is awake. It experiences visions and the discourses of the angels and of God. Therefore the sleep in the future life is deeper than it is in this life. Nevertheless, the soul lives before God. With this analogy, which I have from the sleep of a living person, I am satisfied; for in him there is peace and quiet. He thinks that he has slept barely one or two hours, and yet he sees that the soul sleeps in such a manner that it also is awake."[LW 4:313].

Martin Luther was offended that the 5th Lateran Council declared that the soul was immortal and Luther's position was that only a godless serpent would be so brash as to declare something the word of God so clearly taught from the beginning of the Bible - in fact Luther's argument at the time was that none of the Papists in Rome believed in the the immortality of the soul so the Pope had to declare it to be an article of faith - because the Papists were akin to the Sadducees who denied the immortality of the soul, angels AND the resurrection - dispite that this is taught in the very Creed every Christian repeated multiple times a week.

"When the last Lateran council was to be concluded in Rome under Pope Leo, among other articles it was decreed that one must believe the soul to be immortal.  From this one may gather that they make eternal life an object of sheer mockery and contempt. In this way they confess that it is a common belief among them that there is no eternal life, but that they now wish to proclaim this by means of a bull." (LW 47:37)

&

"Although some of the philosophers, like Socrates and others, maintain the immortality of the soul, they were ridiculed by the rest of the philosophers and all but scorned. But isn't it folly for human reason to be so offended, since it sees that even now the procreation of man is full of wonder? Does it not seem contrary to reason that man, who is to live forever, is born, as it were, from one single droplet of semen in the loins of the father? This is even more absurd than when Moses says that man was formed from a clod by the fingers of God. But reason shows in this way that it knows practically nothing about God, who, merely by a thought, makes out of a clod, not the semen of a human being but the human being itself, and, as Moses states later, makes the woman out of the rib of the man. Such was the origin of man." (LW 1:84)

"The philosophers have indeed disputed about the immortality of the soul, but so coldly that they seem to be setting forth mere fables. Aristotle above all argues about the soul in such a way that he diligently and shrewdly avoids discussing its immortality anywhere; nor did he want to express what he thought about it.  Plato related what he had heard rather than his own opinion.  Nor can its immortality be proved by any human reason, for it is not a thing "under the sun" to believe that the soul is immortal. In the world it is neither seen nor understood as certain that souls are immortal." (LW 15:59)

If you would like to give me an email I can send you a page from Luther's works volume 4 / his lectures on Genesis / page 313 so you can see it for yourself and finally be rid of the Adventist Cannard that Martin Luther believed as Adventists do whereas the state of the dead is concerned. If you don't want to get the book for yourself you can always contact a Lutheran Synod and speak to a Professor there, let them know Luther denied the Immortality of the Soul and was a proto SDA, see how that goes.

"But the soul does NOT SLEEP in the same manner. IT IS AWAKE. IT EXPERIENCES VISIONS AND THE DISCOURSES OF THE ANGELS AND OF GOD. THEREFORE THE SLEEP IN THE FUTURE LIFE IS DEEPER THAN IT IS IN THIS LIFE".

Invest in some of Luther's Work's, I have a couple myself....
...It may prevent you from making future VERBOSE posts that are only accurate in Adventist (JW, SDA Christadelphian circles).
...Best wishes man.

I copied and pasted my quotes from the volumes of Luther's writings which I have on my computers. From which I will also examine the quotes you presented for context and authenticity, when time allows for such. As I have found many problems with the context and or authenticity of many quotes you have provided in the past.

Quote from: Amo
I copied and pasted my quotes from the volumes of Luther's writings which I have on my computers. From which I will also examine the quotes you presented for context and authenticity, when time allows for such. As I have found many problems with the context and or authenticity of many quotes you have provided in the past.

Would enjoy seeing any quotes I've made whereas I've been less than honest about the context or authenticity...
...Take your time looking into what I've posted about Luther.

Years ago, on another forum some Jehovah's Witnesses were posting Luther quotes claiming that soul sleep has been believed and taught throughout the years. I email the Lutheran Missouri Synod and was put in touch with their records custodian and a couple teachers at their Seminary - needless to say they were very helpful and given how courteous they were to me I can assure you if you contacted them and asked questions they would no doubt answer you.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Wed May 17, 2023 - 19:16:04
Would enjoy seeing any quotes I've made whereas I've been less than honest about the context or authenticity...
...Take your time looking into what I've posted about Luther.

Years ago, on another forum some Jehovah's Witnesses were posting Luther quotes claiming that soul sleep has been believed and taught throughout the years. I email the Lutheran Missouri Synod and was put in touch with their records custodian and a couple teachers at their Seminary - needless to say they were very helpful and given how courteous they were to me I can assure you if you contacted them and asked questions they would no doubt answer you.

Why would I need to ask them questions when I have a virtual library of Luther's writings on my computer? If I can't find the source of the quotes you supplied, then I might have to seek more info.

Quote from: Amo
Why would I need to ask them questions when I have a virtual library of Luther's writings on my computer? If I can't find the source of the quotes you supplied, then I might have to seek more info.

Context.

Many of the things Luther wrote initially were in response to apologetics coming at him....
....For instance someone ignorant of the context of Luther's comments on the Immortality of the soul.
....Would incorrectly believe Luther rejected the immortality of the soul - when he definitely didn't.

There have been other canards put forward about Luthers understanding of the Sabbath...
...Which in the end worked out the same way as the state of the dead question.

A Lutheran Seminary has an extensive library of Luther's complete works, scholastics and experience....
...Experience necessary to prevent one from unknowingly perpetuating canards.

I found the experience of talking with the Lutherans at the Synod I reached out to as very pleasant - they were incredibly helpful and kind and definitely competent about Martin Luther's theological positions.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Wed May 17, 2023 - 22:44:51
Context.

Many of the things Luther wrote initially were in response to apologetics coming at him....
....For instance someone ignorant of the context of Luther's comments on the Immortality of the soul.
....Would incorrectly believe Luther rejected the immortality of the soul - when he definitely didn't.

There have been other canards put forward about Luthers understanding of the Sabbath...
...Which in the end worked out the same way as the state of the dead question.

A Lutheran Seminary has an extensive library of Luther's complete works, scholastics and experience....
...Experience necessary to prevent one from unknowingly perpetuating canards.

I found the experience of talking with the Lutherans at the Synod I reached out to as very pleasant - they were incredibly helpful and kind and definitely competent about Martin Luther's theological positions.

Yes context is very important. Concerning exactly what has been written, what was being addressed, and even at what time during an authors life, the work under examination was written. In the past while debating Luther's views regarding the Catholic Church, statements from him were shared with me which contradicted what I understood his stance to be. When I dug deeper though, I realized these were statements made by him while he was still a Roman Catholic. Before he had been excommunicated by the church, exactly because his beliefs had extensively grown in contradiction to those espoused by the Church of Rome. Most of which he never believed again, not to mention his stance against the Roman church as representative of the system anti-christ and Babylon.

Which is why, if I have the writings you have quoted from, I will examine them myself. To determine proper context or not, and or when they were written in relation to Luther's changing beliefs and views according to conviction over time.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun May 14, 2023 - 08:45:37
This concept of soul sleep comes from anti-Trinitarian sects, predominantly those groups who didn't have a Church to return to after it was discovered William Miller's message was a lie. William Miller admitted his error and told his followers to return to their Churches - leaving ONLY the folks that didn't have a Church to return to (Like Ellen White's parents). What was left was primarly anti-Trinitarians who soon started to squabble over what doctrines should they should have.

The squabbling soon started a fracture of the core ant-Trinitarians into sub sects thus creating the various Adventist groups you see today such as the Christadelphians, WWCOG 7th day, Jehovah's Witnesses and of course the SDA's.

A Jehovah's Witness or a Christadelphian IS AN ADVENTIST, they're just not "Seventh-day" Adventist.

All these groups are anti-Trinitarian, all of them teach soul sleep as well as deny that there is now or will be a hell as taught by historic Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mortalism

It doesn't look like wikipedia agrees with your above assessment. As history itself also bears much witness to the contrary. I think you already know this though.

Quote from: Amo
It doesn't look like wikipedia agrees with your above assessment. As history itself also bears much witness to the contrary. I think you already know this though.

Anyone can contribute to wikipedia.

JW's (anti-Trinitarian)
SDA's (redefined the Trinity so that their definition matches that of the Mormons)
Christadelphians (anti-Trinitarian)
Armstrongism

I could go on but you get the idea.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Thu May 18, 2023 - 11:09:56
Anyone can contribute to wikipedia.

JW's (anti-Trinitarian)
SDA's (redefined the Trinity so that their definition matches that of the Mormons)
Christadelphians (anti-Trinitarian)
Armstrongism

I could go on but you get the idea.

So you think some of those people just made up all the historical references to those who believed these truths long ago?

Quote from: Amo
So you think some of those people just made up all the historical references to those who believed these truths long ago?

I'm not saying that at all - what I'm saying is that many times people will quote someone and attribute a meaning to the quote that wasn't the meaning the originator of the quote meant at all (like with Martin Luther). What I'm saying is that the people throughout Jewish and Christian history who affirmed Mortalism and soul sleep were outliers. Given the clear and concise Scriptures that affirm the soul is very much conscious after the death of the body I frankly don't see how someone can deny it.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Fri May 19, 2023 - 23:20:20
I'm not saying that at all - what I'm saying is that many times people will quote someone and attribute a meaning to the quote that wasn't the meaning the originator of the quote meant at all (like with Martin Luther). What I'm saying is that the people throughout Jewish and Christian history who affirmed Mortalism and soul sleep were outliers. Given the clear and concise Scriptures that affirm the soul is very much conscious after the death of the body I frankly don't see how someone can deny it.

Yes, and that argument goes both ways. I provided several quotes from Martin Luther, which included letters in their entirety, and or several paragraphs long, obviously in their proper context. You rebutted these statements from Luther in greater context of his own writings, with statements from Luther with far less context. While I have many of the writings of Luther, they are not from Luther's Works, which you quoted from. So it will take time to find your quotes in their proper context, but I will. Can you give a better reference for your opening quotes regarding Luther's comments upon the Psalms and the book of Mathew? I have the WORKS OF MARTIN LUTHER, not LUTHER'S WORKS. So your references to quotes will not of course correlate with mine. If your quotes are from actual sermons though, a reference to which sermon would help as I also have Luther's sermons. Also, there are many volumes of Luther's works. Does LW5:74 mean volume 5 page 74? If not, what does it refer to? Thanks.

Here Amo, I'll try using the FTP option so you can see the quote in context.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AqET204GTYerhegGqgP65dReXKAdoQ?e=GCDWmL

LW5 does mean Volume 5 & I believe 74 means chapter.

All I'm saying is that Luther's definition of soul sleep is unlike that of a Jehovah's Witness, SDA or Christadelphian.

I admit that Luther's language would cause someone to question if the Lutheran Church departed somewhat from his teachings but this is only because most folks don't have a full view of his views. I certainly didn't so I cheated and contacted Concordia and got help from people who made it their lifes work to study Martin Luther, they sorted me out rather quickly and had me order a couple of books , the one I have shown in the FTP of this post and anther one dealing with the Sabbath question.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Wed May 24, 2023 - 09:35:33
Here Amo, I'll try using the FTP option so you can see the quote in context.

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AqET204GTYerhegGqgP65dReXKAdoQ?e=GCDWmL

LW5 does mean Volume 5 & I believe 74 means chapter.

All I'm saying is that Luther's definition of soul sleep is unlike that of a Jehovah's Witness, SDA or Christadelphian.

I admit that Luther's language would cause someone to question if the Lutheran Church departed somewhat from his teachings but this is only because most folks don't have a full view of his views. I certainly didn't so I cheated and contacted Concordia and got help from people who made it their lifes work to study Martin Luther, they sorted me out rather quickly and had me order a couple of books , the one I have shown in the FTP of this post and anther one dealing with the Sabbath question.

Thank you. I'll look deeper into it, as time allows.

"For how is Abraham a servant of God after his death? Will God not be able eventually to forget Abraham? Today he certainly still serves God, just as Adam, Abel, and Noah serve God. And this must be carefully noted; for it is divine truth that Abraham is living, serving God, and ruling with Him. But what the nature of that life is, whether he is asleep or awake, is another question. We do not have to know how the soul rests. It is certain that it is alive." [LW 5:74].

Above is your first quote from Luther's Works. Below is the context concerning Luther's comments on Gen 26:24&25. Your above quoted section will be in blue for clarity, other emphasis concerning the topic at hand is mine.

Quote24. And the Lord appeared to him the same night and said: I am the God of Abraham your father; fear not, for I am with you and will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham's sake.
25. So he built an altar there and called upon the name of the Lord, and pitched his tent there. And there Isaac's servants dug a well.
Above I have often warned that in the historical accounts and legends of the patriarchs one should direct special attention to the Word and should distinguish carefully between the works of the patriarchs and the Word of God as the chief part of the life of the fathers, namely, that we should note and observe primarily what and how often God speaks with them. For the Word of God is greater than the works of all men, even of the saintliest, yes, even of the angels.

In the accounts of the fathers this is the only and most desirable jewel, namely, that God speaks with them and with us. The world does not see this. Nor does it have an understanding of the value and excellence of this treasure. Nor do we ourselves pay sufficient attention to the fact that in our whole life the Word is the measure, the standard, and the most precious thing that guides our life, so that you can say: "I am doing this in the Word of God. The Lord has commanded this. This pleases God." Thus from the highest station in life down to the lowest we can be sure that God has commanded, that God has spoken. But if the Word is lacking, then he who can should flee, even if his life gives the appearance of being angelic. Even if what one undertakes seems pleasing to God, especially religious, and pure, thrust aside that "it seems" if you are not sure about the Word. For why do you afflict yourself in vain and waste your time miserably, as the monks do in the papacy? The Turks do likewise, and the Jews proceed in accordance with the human opinion that they please God if they kill themselves with fasts and tortures of the flesh. Thus it is related about Bernard that he tortured his body to such an extent by not eating that because of the stench of his breath he was unbearable to the rest when the choir was assembled. It is evident that in this way he wanted to curb and suppress lust. And this is the nature of all the works of human life that are undertaken without the Word.

Consequently, I give this warning diligently and frequently—and it must always be impressed—lest we be carried away by our own opinions or thoughts, however godly, angelic, and heavenly they may be. Thus Paul also warns in Col. 2:18: "Let no one disqualify you, insisting on self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions." For they are without the Word. For God speaks with us and deals with us through the ministers of the Word, through parents, and through the government, in order that we may not be carried about with any wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14). Children should listen to their parents, citizens to the government, a Christian to the pastor and the ministers of the Word, a pupil to his teacher. Apart from this Word all life is condemned, and all sects are lost. But if the Word is there, then I have sure comfort, whether I am a father or a mother or a child. Then I hear the Word, and I know what I should believe and what I should do; for God speaks with me, too, in the very station of life in which I live.

On the other hand, corruptions and distortions of the Word are a horrible wrath of God and severe retribution and punishment against those who have despised the Word; for if you do not want to listen to God in His sure truth, then indeed you may listen to falsehood under the guise of truth, as Paul, too, in 2 Thess. 2:10–11, declares concerning this punishment for contempt of the Word and very sad examples demonstrate the same thing. Today Greece listens to Mohammed. The West listens to the pope.

To be sure, there are admirable and commendable works and examples in the accounts of the patriarchs, for these men walk in the Word of God; but more attention should be given to the Word, which guides the life of the patriarchs. It is the rule and standard according to which I can reach the conclusion that I am a preacher, a husband, a wife, a servant, a maid, a child, that God has committed this to me, and that for this reason it pleases Him, not on account of the works in themselves—for we are flesh—but on account of our guide and leader, namely, the Word of God, under which I walk. If I die, I do not die in the rule of Francis but in the rule and Word of the Holy Spirit.

Now let us look at the words themselves: "I AM THE GODS OF ABRAHAM." For in the Hebrew it is אֱלֹהִים, which in the plural number denotes Gods, just as above in chapter 1:1: "In the beginning God created, etc." We Christians must have no doubt about the oneness of God. But the nature of that oneness is inscrutable to reason and human wisdom, for it is a revelation of the Holy Spirit and of faith. The Jews and the Turks laugh at us and attribute a most impudent lie to us, namely, that we set up a plurality of gods and believe that there are three gods. Therefore they boast that they are the people of God and that they are honored with many brilliant victories and with the wealth of the entire world because they believe in one God, but that we have been afflicted with so many defeats because we invent more gods. For this reason they call us idolaters and horribly blaspheme the Son of God, as all their histories bear witness. Therefore our hearts must be fortified against these blasphemous utterances and this boast, which, as it appears to reason, is altogether too true and plausible. For it is completely certain that we believe in a God who is completely one and completely simple. But the fact that the Turk does not understand our faith or doctrine properly and does not hear who that one and completely uncompounded God is—this is his own fault, not ours. For we teach and believe not only that there is one God, but that He is completely simple and completely one in His state of being one. We do not separate these three: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We do not make separate gods. No, we believe in God who is completely one and completely simple.

Is someone going to say: "But I do not understand these things"? Very well. Nor do you have to understand them. We believe in one God, who nevertheless is wont to speak about Himself and to count Himself in the plural. Just as above, as often as it has been stated, "in your Seed," that Seed, because He is without sin and also has the power to destroy sin, is God of necessity and in truth. In the same way God is called "the Gods of Abraham" in this passage. And we care nothing about those oxen and asses, the Turks and the Jews, who declare that they cannot comprehend this with human reason; for they do not have to either, since such important matters are established on the basis of divine revelation.

Furthermore, if we look at these words more carefully, we shall see that the resurrection of the dead can also be deduced from them. For just as it is stated in a common proverb that the letters of princes must be read three times, so there is a much greater obligation to reread Divine Scripture a thousand times. We know that Abraham died and was buried by his sons Isaac and Ishmael. But now God says: "I am the Gods of Abraham." And Christ says (Matt. 22:32) that God is not God of the dead. Here, therefore, He restores Abraham to life and raises him from the dead. This is the well-known syllogism contained in Matt. 22:32, where we read: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not God of the dead, but of the living." God is not the God of that which is nothing. No One and Nobody do not worship God, and God does not rule over them. Abraham died, and God is the God of Abraham. Consequently, Abraham is living. "To be sure, he died and was buried; but for Me, God, Abraham lives and knows the Trinity of the Persons and Christ, his Seed; for God is not the God of nothing."

This reasoning the prophets, enlightened as they were by the Holy Spirit, saw and understood very clearly. The Turk does not see this, and the pope and his teachers have never understood it; for they go into Scripture with the understanding of a mule and an ass, as we read in Ps. 32:9. If they ever read Matt. 1:2, where it is stated that Abraham was the father of Isaac, etc., they thought that Abraham and Isaac were pious and plain men who were husbands and that in them there is nothing worthy of wonder. But if the Holy Spirit comes as the Enlightener, then this light concerning immortality and eternal life shines forth; for if Abraham has God, and vice versa, it is necessary for God and Abraham to be living at the same time. For those statements mutually sustain and eliminate themselves, since God does not deal with the dead.

Isaac understood this doctrine concerning the plurality of Persons in the Godhead and concerning the resurrection of the dead, and he undoubtedly taught it; for it is the voice of the church and the preaching of the Gospel. First he prayed. Afterward he preached as follows: "To me it has been revealed by God that my father is living in the grace and mercy of God. Consequently, we shall not die either. For although we die to the world, yet we shall be separated from the godless, who seem to live and to have God in this world. But they have an angry God. We, however, will have a compassionate God both here and there."

What He adds, namely, "for My servant's sake," also belongs here. For how is Abraham a servant of God after his death? Will God not be able eventually to forget Abraham? Today he certainly still serves God, just as Adam, Abel, and Noah serve God. And this must be carefully noted; for it is divine truth that Abraham is living, serving God, and ruling with Him. But what the nature of that life is, whether he is asleep or awake, is another question. We do not have to know how the soul rests. It is certain that it is alive. Look at people who are in a trance or are sleeping; about them nobody can say what they are, even when they are sleeping physically. For they are without sensation and just as if they were dead. Nevertheless, one cannot say: "This person is dead." But according to the testimony of the entire world, he is alive while sleeping or dreaming. Yet when I am sleeping, I am not aware of being alive; for my senses and even reason itself do not perform their functions. Then nobody knows where he is. If we were alive while sleeping, we would be able to think in our sleep: "I am in this house, in this bedroom." Nevertheless, while dreaming I often think that I am in hell, in heaven, in Venice, or somewhere else. Accordingly, this is an important sign that I am alive and yet am not alive.

What, then, shall we suppose is the way in which the soul rests or lives? It undoubtedly has some way of its own in which it sleeps. I have no knowledge of this, just as I cannot understand physical sleep either; for I have often wanted to observe carefully the moment in which I fall asleep and the moment in which I would again become awake, but I was awake before I had noticed it. Such examples of our sleeping, which is a kind of death, prove that the souls of the saints are resting, as is stated in Is. 26:20 and 57:2, and far more peacefully at that than people who are sleeping. Indeed, these, too, are resting, and because of that rest people are never more alive than when they are sleeping; for the life of those who are awake is full of cares, troubles, hardships, and sicknesses. But physical sleep changes and overcomes illnesses. Thus the disciples say in John 11:12: "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Consequently, we shall be right when we say that we are most alive when we sleep and die; for then the spirit of life is most powerful. In the same way the souls, too, are sleeping. But how this takes place we do not understand.

Nor is this strange, since we do not understand other things that should be better known to us—things in which we were born and brought up. Look at your infancy, and give thought to whether you remember that you were in your mother's womb, that you lay in a cradle, that you sucked your mother's breasts, cried, ate pap, grew, etc. Yet we are certainly alive even during the first year, when the fetus is carried in the mother's womb. But how we lived we do not know at all. Thus also after its birth a year-old child knows nothing about life; it does not know that it is living. It does not reflect on life. In them we see life without life. Thus I have lived for 60 years. I also lived in my mother's womb. But about that life I never knew a thing later on. Nevertheless, frequent movements show that there is certain and vigorous life of the fetus in the womb. So does the crying of the infant when it emerges. Now, however, since we cannot grasp this with our thoughts, we understand far less what the nature of that life after death is. Nevertheless, it is sure that we are living. Therefore this investigation must be given up and must be left to God, like the previous article, namely, how God is one and three at the same time in three Persons. But do this: Listen to the Word; let it guide you. But follow with your eyes closed. Then you will find how He is one and three.

In this way I hear in this passage that there is life in death and after death, and that there is a resurrection of the dead. Do not be concerned about how this will be, since when you are asleep, you do not know that you are living, even though you are living. Thus you lived in the womb and when you were an infant, even though you did not know it. Would God not have more ways of living than these two, so that there is a life without life and understanding? Thus the soul can have some way of its own of living—a way which is beyond our comprehension.

Meanwhile we should sustain ourselves with this comfort, and we should look for it with firm confidence. The voice from heaven sets it before us: "I am your God; I am the Gods of Abraham; you are My servants." As Is. 26:19 says: "Arise, O dwellers in the dust; because My dead bodies shall arise. Thy dew is like the dew of the meadows." There God speaks with the dead just as if they were living; and this very Word is the most powerful proof that we are not mortal, but that we are immortal even in death. For God speaks with us even in our own speech and in human language. God knows that this life is short. But why would He speak with us, and indeed in such a manner that He employs our own language, if we did not live forever? For otherwise He would be uttering His Word in vain for the sake of only a moment of time. But He does not speak in vain. Nor does He assume the voice of oxen or asses. He does not bellow with them. He speaks with man alone. Accordingly, where and with whomever God speaks, whether in anger or in grace, that person is surely immortal. The Person of God, who speaks, and the Word point out that we are the kind of creatures with whom God would want to speak eternally and in an immortal manner. Such a God or Gods, as He is called here, Abraham has; and he who clings to Abraham's promise has the same God and is a servant of God. Eventually he will live while he sleeps, even though he is dead.

But God repeats the blessing because the very saintly man, who has been vexed and tried in various ways, undoubtedly thought: "Wretched man that I am, what shall I do? Whither shall I turn? For the past trials are making us uneasy and anxious, so that we think: 'How long am I going to have this peace? Perhaps it will be for a month or two at most.' " For he was also forced to leave Rehoboth. And perhaps Rebecca began to complain and be indignant because of her rather unfair fortune and the frequent and varied changes. "Who will be able to bear and suffer this so long, to wander about so long and roam without fixed abodes?" For although these are carnal matters, yet they very greatly trouble faith. Therefore I believe that Isaac was almost exhausted by such great misfortunes and that Rebecca grumbled. Thus Tobit's wife reproaches her husband with his alms. "It is evident," she says, "that your hope has come to nothing, and your alms have not appeared" (cf. Tobit 1:22). Such exhaustion, I suppose, existed here too. Furthermore, the complaints and shouts of the household increased it. Therefore the Lord comforts him and his whole household. "Fear not," He says. Accordingly, Isaac was afraid and terrified. His faith was in danger. For the devil exhausts the godly not only with the greatness of the trials but with his assiduity and his insistence. Therefore God says: "Be strong, My dear Isaac; fear not." And in this way He buoys up and puts new life into the man who is weary in his spirit. He does so with most beautiful comfort, namely, with the revelation of immortality. "You will live," He says, "and you will live eternally; for I am the God of your father, who is living. Therefore you, too, shall live."

One should take careful note of these words, because God does not speak in vain. In the first place, He says: "I am with you, but in a hidden manner." Isaac says: "I am not aware of it; Thou art standing far away." Thus Jeremiah complains (12:2): "Thou art near in their mouth and far from their heart." It is as if he were saying: "The others rejoice, dance, and exult; to them Thou art very near." Thus today the Turk boasts that God is on his side and that he has been honored by God with so many victories and such great wealth. For he has God's blessing in abundance. Meanwhile the devil seems to be very close to the Christians who are being captured or massacred by the Turks, but that God seems to be very far away. For the godless the devil is dead. In their opinion, God alone rules among them. But He is very far away from them, and they are, as is stated in Jer. 46:20–21, fatted calves for the day of slaughter and beasts for sacrifice. The same thing will happen to the Turks and to the pope, even though they interpret their successes as signs of grace, not of wrath.

But as for you, if God tries and scourges you, believe, and be satisfied with the Word you have in Ps. 91:15: "I am with you in trouble. I will deliver you, not only from trouble but from death, sickness, and shame. I will care for you." To be sure, the eyes do not see this, nor do the hands touch it; but to the believer all things are possible. And what has been said in this passage to the patriarch Isaac, the same thing is said to us: "I am with you, and I will keep what I have promised. From Me you must look not only for physical blessings but also for eternal blessings." "But assuredly the opposite is apparent," says Isaac. "It seems that Thou art cursing me. I must perish of thirst together with my wife, my children, and my whole household. This is not a divine blessing, is it?" God's answer is: "Fear not. You will not perish of thirst." And He adds: "I will multiply your seed for My servant Abraham's sake. I will multiply you not only now but also your seed and descendants in the future."

This is a repetition of the blessing together with an amplification by which He reassures him about eternal life and immortality. But why does He say "for Abraham's sake" and not "for Isaac's sake"? My answer is that He wants to praise the example of his father Abraham and to present it to be imitated. It is as though He were saying: "Even though you have not deserved that I should speak with you, yet I want to speak with you for your father's sake; so much do I love him." This is very sweet comfort, and it is much more gratifying than if He had failed to mention the example of Abraham and had said: "For your sake, Isaac." This is the last promise, and with it Isaac sustained himself till the end of his life. Therefore he builds an altar there, and he remained in Beer-sheba till his death and was buried in the cave of which we read above in chapter 23. But he built an altar there not on account of the sacrifice but on account of the preaching of the Word. For wherever mention is made of the erection of an altar and the building of a tabernacle, there the establishment of a little church is pointed out—a church in which people came together to teach and hear the Word of God, to pray, to praise God, and to sacrifice. Thus our churches are places in which people assemble to worship and praise God. For an altar is not a place in the household; it is in the church, and the duties of the church are teaching, praising, the giving of thanks, etc.

Accordingly, Isaac delivered many very beautiful sermons there for approximately 70 or 80 years. He preached the mystery of the Trinity, of the incarnation of Christ, and of immortality, and all things that are read in the Gospel today and are being taught. Truly this was a beautiful chapel built under a tree under which he met with his household and his neighbors. I surely would have liked to see it. For it was not adorned with gold, silver, or jewels; but God spoke there by word of mouth. Nor was the tabernacle magnificent; it was constructed of trees. But it is impressive and outstanding because a highly distinguished prophet and the prophetess Rebecca dwell there, likewise many saintly people from their household who came together to Isaac when he taught. They heard him with great reverence, and they gave thanks to God for this teacher.
Thus after Moses has told about the physical and external matters that have to do with the care of the body—yet among them there are many outstanding examples of faith, love, hope, humility, and patience—he also inserts the religious activities and duties, the promises, the sermons, the words of praise, and the hymns with which the saints fostered their faith and comforted themselves in tribulation. For all sermons and the entire heavenly doctrine must be directed to the end that faith may increase, that the promise concerning the grace of God may be praised and take root in the hearts of men, and that patience and other fruits of faith may be increased.

Here, however, we retain the usual difference between these two expressions: invoking the name of the Lord and invoking in the name of the Lord. For the former means "calling upon," as in Ps. 50:15: "Call upon Me in the day of trouble." To invoke in the name of the Lord is to preach in the name of the Lord. Gen. 4:26: "At the time of Enosh men began to call upon the name of the Lord"; that is, at that time sermons began to be delivered, and preaching began. Strictly speaking, קָרָא means ruffen, nennen, "to call," "to name," "to read from a book," "to preach." Sometimes it also means "to meet." Moreover, I believe that this is why Mohammed titled his book the Alcoran; for it is a compilation, or a textbook or his Bible, as the pope calls his decretals. Here, therefore, we take this word to mean "to teach," or "to read in a public assembly," provided that they had books.

At the same time the nature of the preaching is described. It was done in the name of the Lord; that is, they preached about our Lord God. It was the doctrine concerning God. It was not a useless preaching of human traditions, as the doctrine of the pope is; but it was true and sound doctrine which gave pure instruction about the Lord and His name on the basis of the promise, in order that the faith which is a work of the First Table might be exercised. Then, in the Second Table, there was the doctrine about good works. For we have two kinds of doctrine. The one deals with the promises, which belong to the First Table. There God speaks with us and promises that He will be our God, in order that we may gain faith, love, and hope toward God. And this is by far the most extensive doctrine; it pervades works of every kind. The second kind of doctrine deals with works and the fruits of faith. Thus the chief parts of the Christian doctrine are the promise and the Law.

In the third place, the ceremonies are added, such as circumcision, which Isaac had from God. It, too, he transmitted to his hearers. And without a doubt he was a teacher completely free from error, one who trained and instructed the church diligently in the Word of faith and truth. And this he could do properly and well in a time of peace. For where there is no tranquillity, there is no time or place for constructing tabernacles or erecting altars, the people cannot be taught, and neither the government nor the household can be administered. A quiet place and a tranquil time are needed. But in a time of trial we should make use of what we have learned in peacetime, just as Isaac did. When he sees that he has peace because of God's kindness, he does not snore, is not spoiled by leisure, and does not strive to accumulate wealth; but he employs his time in such a way that he works most when he has leisure, since he understands that leisure has been granted to him for the purpose of establishing a church for the sake of his descendants.

We should do the same thing, while the monks and the clergy, who enjoy tranquillity, leisure, Rehoboth, and an abundance of everything, snore and gorge. But they misuse all these things most shamefully for gorging, pleasures, and every satanic villainy, although the treasures of emperors and kings have not been contributed to churches and religious establishments for these uses but have been gathered for the purpose of setting up and preserving practices of godliness. Thus when you have found leisure, as Isaac did, you should make use of these opportunities for the purpose of cleansing and spreading the worship of God. Thus the clergy should read and learn the Holy Scriptures in order that they themselves may also teach others concerning religion, pray, devote themselves to the altar, and preach in the name of the Lord.

Martin Luther, Luther's Works, Vol. 5: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 26-30, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald, and Helmut T. Lehmann, vol. 5 (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999), 70–80.

It appears from the above testimony of Luther, that he was definitely a proponent of soul sleep, at the time in which he wrote the above.  For even though he contends that the soul is alive and immortal after death, he also contends that it is in a condition of sleep, which we do not presently fully understand. This separates him from SDA's and others, who believe souls do die, as scripture plainly states. A condition which scripture describes as a sleep. While he apparently believed in soul sleep at the time he authored the above, SDA's and others believe in the sleep of the dead. Nevertheless, immortality is assured to the believer in either case.

Further study and examination will reveal if Luther maintained this soul sleep described in his above writings throughout his life, or if he somewhat changed those views as he did many others in accordance with greater light or understanding from scripture. The study of Luther's writings on this matter will no doubt be, and already has been enlightening, concerning the subjects and differences between the doctrines of soul sleep, and the sleep of the dead. I will find and examine your other quotes in context as well, as time permits.

Why does anyone care what Luther believed except, perhaps, its being an interesting element of history?

Thanks Amo,

As you see from the context I provided Luther's definition of soul sleep was radically different than Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists. Luther, from his study of Scripture was certain the soul was alive and communicating with God and Angels. The good folks at the Lutheran seminary were very helpful and were aware that Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA's had been misrepresenting Luther's position on this topic and in the case of SDA's Luther's position / beliefs on the Sabbath.

The point I want to get across is that the Lutherans at the seminary I spoke with on the phone and emailed were wonderful, they went over the top answering my questions and I'm sure they would treat anyone else the same.

Quote from: 4WD
Why does anyone care what Luther believed except, perhaps, its being an interesting element of history?

4WD, SDA's obsess over what Ellen White wrote because they believe she, like Christ, was put on earth to vindicate the Law of God...
...SDA's consider Ellen White to speak on behalf of God in a clear, concise manner - unlike the "Bible Writers".
....Ellen boasted she was God's pen - Ellen operated the Spirit of Prophecy like a sock-puppet.
....She considered herself a trumpet God blew through.

Here are some examples:

Ellen White
In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 148; Vol. 5., p. 661)


Ellen White
The Bible is written by inspired men, but IT is NOT God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, NOT His pen." (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, Chapter One "The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers")

Ellen White Sabbath Herald Jan 26,1905
The word given me is, 'You are faithfully to reprove those who would mar the faith of the people of God. Write out the things which I shall give you, that they may stand as a witness to the truth till the end of time.' I said, 'If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read her published books. My labors would be naught should I preach another gospel. That which I have written is what the Lord has bidden me write. I have not been instructed to change that which I have sent out

Ellen White
Some are ready to inquire: 'Who told Sister White these things?' They have even put the question to me: 'Did anyone tell you these things?' I could answer them: 'Yes; yes, the angel of God has spoken to me.' But what they mean is: 'Have the brethren and sisters been exposing their faults?' For the future, I shall not belittle the testimonies that God has given me, to make explanations to try to satisfy such narrow minds, BUT shall treat all such questions as an insult to the Spirit of God. God has seen fit to thrust me into positions in which He has not placed any other one in our ranks. He has laid upon me burdens of reproof that He has not given to any other one." (Testimonies, vol. 3, pp. 314, 315)

Ellen White
God has set me as a reprover of His people; and just so surely as He has laid upon me the heavy burden, He will make those to whom this message is given responsible for the manner in which they treat it. God will not be trifled with, and those who despise His work will receive according to their deeds." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 679)


Now, Lutheran's don't quite view Martin Luther as directly speaking for God and to be God's own "penman" but Luther is held in high regard - Adventist groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians & SDA's for quite a while have been claiming that Martin Luther believed in Soul Sleep , essentially claiming Luther was a proto SDA or JW in that area. Some SDA's even pushed it to the point where they claimed Luther's view of the Sabbath was similar to theirs.

Thus, the reason people care about what Luther taught / believed matters a great deal if certain people from another group are using Luther to leverage their position.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun May 28, 2023 - 07:44:26
Why does anyone care what Luther believed except, perhaps, its being an interesting element of history?

I might just as well ask you why you care what the founding fathers of this nation believed, and our the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or Bill of Rights. Documents authored and or approved by them according as they believed. Are you truly more interested in the history and convictions which lead to the establishment of this great nation, than the histories and convictions of God's people and church composing his kingdom on this earth? Or do you not also understand the connections between them, and or the dependence and survival of the one, upon the other? Of the former, upon the latter?

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun May 28, 2023 - 10:12:57
Thanks Amo,

As you see from the context I provided Luther's definition of soul sleep was radically different than Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists. Luther, from his study of Scripture was certain the soul was alive and communicating with God and Angels. The good folks at the Lutheran seminary were very helpful and were aware that Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA's had been misrepresenting Luther's position on this topic and in the case of SDA's Luther's position / beliefs on the Sabbath.

The point I want to get across is that the Lutherans at the seminary I spoke with on the phone and emailed were wonderful, they went over the top answering my questions and I'm sure they would treat anyone else the same.

SDA's do not believe in soul sleep, nor really ever have, though many associate it with them. They believe in the sleep of the dead. That when the body and spirit are separated, there is no longer a living soul. That souls can and do die, as scripture plainly states.

As far as Luther's thoughts expressed in that which I quoted, they are far from the clarity you suggest above. No one ever stating that Luther believed in the sleep of the dead, has misrepresented Luther's position, as he himself stated this many times over. Even in the quotes which I supplied earlier. That his definition of exactly what that sleep truly represents may differ from others, does not mean he never said that the dead are sleeping, which he plainly did on several occasions. The study of what he actually believed, at what time he believed it, and whether or not his views changed over time, is far from done as far as I am concerned. Really for me, it is just beginning. Thanks to your debate and accusations.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun May 28, 2023 - 10:32:26
4WD, SDA's obsess over what Ellen White wrote because they believe she, like Christ, was put on earth to vindicate the Law of God...
...SDA's consider Ellen White to speak on behalf of God in a clear, concise manner - unlike the "Bible Writers".
....Ellen boasted she was God's pen - Ellen operated the Spirit of Prophecy like a sock-puppet.
....She considered herself a trumpet God blew through.

Here are some examples:

Ellen White
In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these days he speaks to them by the Testimonies of his Spirit" (Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 148; Vol. 5., p. 661)


Ellen White
The Bible is written by inspired men, but IT is NOT God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, NOT His pen." (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, Chapter One "The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers")

Ellen White Sabbath Herald Jan 26,1905
The word given me is, 'You are faithfully to reprove those who would mar the faith of the people of God. Write out the things which I shall give you, that they may stand as a witness to the truth till the end of time.' I said, 'If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read her published books. My labors would be naught should I preach another gospel. That which I have written is what the Lord has bidden me write. I have not been instructed to change that which I have sent out

Ellen White
Some are ready to inquire: 'Who told Sister White these things?' They have even put the question to me: 'Did anyone tell you these things?' I could answer them: 'Yes; yes, the angel of God has spoken to me.' But what they mean is: 'Have the brethren and sisters been exposing their faults?' For the future, I shall not belittle the testimonies that God has given me, to make explanations to try to satisfy such narrow minds, BUT shall treat all such questions as an insult to the Spirit of God. God has seen fit to thrust me into positions in which He has not placed any other one in our ranks. He has laid upon me burdens of reproof that He has not given to any other one." (Testimonies, vol. 3, pp. 314, 315)

Ellen White
God has set me as a reprover of His people; and just so surely as He has laid upon me the heavy burden, He will make those to whom this message is given responsible for the manner in which they treat it. God will not be trifled with, and those who despise His work will receive according to their deeds." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 679)


Now, Lutheran's don't quite view Martin Luther as directly speaking for God and to be God's own "penman" but Luther is held in high regard - Adventist groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians & SDA's for quite a while have been claiming that Martin Luther believed in Soul Sleep , essentially claiming Luther was a proto SDA or JW in that area. Some SDA's even pushed it to the point where they claimed Luther's view of the Sabbath was similar to theirs.

Thus, the reason people care about what Luther taught / believed matters a great deal if certain people from another group are using Luther to leverage their position.

More twisted half truths, using quotes out of context no doubt. Which I might waste some time addressing, after more thoroughly examining the issue of Luther's beliefs, concerning your use of his quotes as well.

Quote from: Amo on Sun May 28, 2023 - 10:40:30
I might just as well ask you why you care what the founding fathers of this nation believed, and our the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or Bill of Rights.

Because those are the basis upon which the country was founded.  My faith in God is not founded upon anything Luther produced; rather it is founded upon what the Holy Spirit inspired writings in the Bible.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun May 28, 2023 - 10:32:26
4WD, SDA's obsess over what Ellen White wrote

That is an affront to me.  I don't know what Ellen White wrote, I don't even care what Ellen White wrote; I certainly do not obsess over it.