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Quote from: Amo on Sat Dec 23, 2023 - 15:37:10That's pretty twisted Alan. I don't believe anywhere near anything like "everything you've been taught is wrong". Neither do the people who wrote most of the articles you refer to as worthless, no doubt. Many of whom are no doubt more highly educated "scientists", than yourself. Once again however, personal insults and or self declarations of superiority, do not a good argument make. You are however of course, free to rely upon whatever you wish, regarding the defense of your own understanding.

That nonsense from icr.org on the second law of thermo is certainly worthless.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Dec 24, 2023 - 04:21:39That nonsense from icr.org on the second law of thermo is certainly worthless.

Yes, everyone has their opinions. Those who wish to go somewhat beyond opinion, present arguments hopefully regarding facts which support their views. I could respond by stating that your above comment is nonsense, but I do not know that to be true, since you have never articulated the actual reasons for your total disagreement. Obviously the person who wrote the article didn't think their observations were nonsense.

https://www.livescience.com/50941-second-law-thermodynamics.html

Article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments are in blue.

What is the second law of thermodynamics?

The second law of thermodynamics says, in simple terms, entropy always increases. This principle explains, for example, why you can't unscramble an egg.

The second law of thermodynamics states that as energy is transferred or transformed, more and more of it is wasted. It's one of the four laws of thermodynamics, which describe the relationships between thermal energy, or heat, and other forms of energy, and how energy affects matter. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed; the total quantity of energy in the universe stays the same. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is about the nature of energy. The Second Law also states that there is a natural tendency of any isolated system to degenerate into a more disordered state, according to Boston University.


Saibal Mitra, a professor of physics at Missouri State University, finds the Second Law to be the most interesting of the four laws of thermodynamics. "There are a number of ways to state the Second Law," Mitra told Live Science. "At a very microscopic level, it simply says that if you have a system that is isolated, any natural process in that system progresses in the direction of increasing disorder, or entropy, of the system."

From the above highlighted or emphasized portions of the article, it seems certainly understandable that Intelligent Designers or Creationists would see a direct contradiction between the above statements, and the theory of evolution. In that of course the second law determines that all things tend toward increasing disorder and or entropy. Which appears to be the very opposite tendency assumed upon the theory of evolution. Which of course is completely dependent upon increasing order and consequent complexity of functionality in biological life forms. Evolution does of course involve unending natural processes in systems of biological functionality and or of course progressive development. All of which requires the use of energy, and therefore also involves the transfer and or transformation of heat and or energy. Which according to the second law, produces a lot of wasted energy, and always tends toward disorder and entropy. Which of course seems to contradict the assumptions of evolution, to the Intelligent Designer or Creationist. Correct this view if it is wrong please.

Mitra explained that all processes result in an increase in entropy. Even when order is increased in a specific location, for example by the self-assembly of molecules to form a living organism, when you take the entire system including the environment into account, there is always a net increase in entropy. In another example, crystals can form from a salt solution as the water is evaporated. Crystals are more orderly than salt molecules in solution; however, vaporized water is much more disorderly than liquid water. The process taken as a whole results in a net increase in disorder.


The above highlighted section from the article appears to affirm my previous statement. To the extent that evolution, rather than being fully supported by natural tendencies, actually goes against the natural tendencies displayed in the transference and or transformation of energy. Which processes are an intricate part of evolution and or change, and just about everything else. I would presume therefore, as I must since you will not expound upon your views, that your argument consists upon separating evolutionary processes from these natural tendencies encompassed and or defined by the second law of thermodynamics. Is this correct? If so, please do expound, or if not, do so as well.

In his book, "A New Kind of Science" (Wolfram Media, 2018), Stephen Wolfram wrote, "Around 1850 Rudolf Clausius and William Thomson (Lord Kelvin) stated that heat does not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a hotter body." This became the basis for the Second Law.

Subsequent works by Daniel Bernoulli, James Clerk Maxwell, and Ludwig Boltzmann led to the development of the kinetic theory of gases, in which a gas is recognized as a cloud of molecules in motion that can be treated statistically, according to Georgia State University. This statistical approach allows for precise calculation of temperature, pressure and volume according to the ideal gas law, according to Georgia State University.

This approach also led to the conclusion that while collisions between individual molecules are completely reversible, i.e., they work the same when played forward or backward, that's not the case for a large quantity of gas. With large quantities of gas, the speeds of individual molecules tend over time to form a normal or Gaussian distribution, sometimes depicted as a "bell curve," around the average speed. The result of this is that when hot gas and cold gas are placed together in a container, you eventually end up with warm gas, according to Georgia State University. However, the warm gas will never spontaneously separate itself into hot and cold gas, meaning that the process of mixing hot and cold gases is irreversible. This has often been summarized as, "You can't unscramble an egg." According to Wolfram, Boltzmann realized around 1876 that the reason for this is that there must be many more disordered states for a system than there are ordered states; therefore random interactions will inevitably lead to greater disorder.

As is obvious, Creationists would see the above highlighted observation to also be more supportive of Creationist views than evolutionary views. For the same reasons as those I already expressed. If random interactions will inevitably lead to greater disorder, then the increased interactions required unto progressive evolution, would obviously lead to even greater disorder instead of ever increasing order and complexity. 

One thing the Second Law dictates is that it is impossible to convert heat energy to mechanical energy with 100% efficiency, according to Britannica. After the process of heating a gas to increase its pressure to drive a piston, there is always some leftover heat in the gas that cannot be used to do any additional work. This waste heat must be discarded by transferring it to a heat sink. In the case of a car, this is done by sending the spent fuel and air mixture from the engine to the atmosphere via the exhaust pipe. Additionally, any device with movable parts produces friction that converts mechanical energy to heat that is generally unusable and must be removed from the system by transferring it to a heat sink. This is why claims for perpetual motion machines are summarily rejected by the U.S. Patent Office.

We now know that even one single living cell, is absolutely filled with moving parts, let alone organs and or organisms of far greater complexity, functionality, and exponentially more moving parts. All of which therefore, according to the second law, should tend toward increased disorder and entropy. Which it seems is repeatedly demonstrated in the birth, life, eventual degradation, and death of every living organism. Because that is the normal or natural condition of our present existence. Seemingly demonstrated in every living thing and all transferences or transformations of energy. Which is intricately tied to and part of all life as we now know it.

God and His salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, apparently being able to halt or even reverse said processes.  God's presence and or intervention and the fruit from the tree of life, apparently supply what we now lack to prevent these now present and all permeating laws of naturally increasing disorder, entropy, decay, and death.

When a hot and a cold body are brought into contact with each other, heat energy will flow from the hot body to the cold body until they reach thermal equilibrium, i.e., the same temperature. However, the heat will never move back the other way; the difference in the temperatures of the two bodies will never spontaneously increase. Moving heat from a cold body to a hot body requires work to be done by an external energy source such as a heat pump, according to Georgia State University.

"The most efficient engines we build right now are large gas turbines," said David McKee, a professor of physics at Missouri State University. "They burn natural gas or other gaseous fuels at a very high temperature, over 2,000 degrees Celsius [3,600 degrees Fahrenheit], and the exhaust coming out is just a stiff, warm breeze. Nobody tries to extract energy from the waste heat, because there's just not that much there."

The Second Law indicates that thermodynamic processes, i.e., processes that involve the transfer or conversion of heat energy, are irreversible because they all result in an increase in entropy. Perhaps one of the most consequential implications of the Second Law, Mitra said, is that it gives us the thermodynamic arrow of time.

Ah time! Which is of course very important to mortal beings. Not so much, or in the same way at all of course, to those who have immortality. The gift of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, Amen.

Jhn 3 :14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



In theory, some interactions, such as collisions of rigid bodies or certain chemical reactions, look the same whether they are run forward or backward. In practice, however, all exchanges of energy are subject to inefficiencies, such as friction and radiative heat loss, which increase the entropy of the system being observed, according to OpenStax. Therefore, because there is no such thing as a perfectly reversible process, if someone asks what is the direction of time, we can answer with confidence that time always flows in the direction of increasing entropy.

The above statement again seems to contradict the claims of deep time, undirected, natural biological and progressive evolution. Time does not tend toward increased order and complexity, but rather increased disorder and entropy. That is the decay of systems of the transfer or transformation of energy, endemic to all life and being of our present existence. Not the progression of them.

The Second Law also predicts the end of the universe, according to Boston University. "It implies that the universe will end in a 'heat death' in which everything is at the same temperature. This is the ultimate level of disorder; if everything is at the same temperature, no work can be done, and all the energy will end up as the random motion of atoms and molecules."

In the far distant future, stars will cease being born, galaxies will burn out, and black holes will evaporate until there's nothing left but subatomic particles and energy, according to Science Magazine. Ultimately, those particles and that energy will reach thermal equilibrium with the rest of the Universe. Fortunately, John Baez, a mathematical physicist at the University of California Riverside, predicts that this process of cooling down could take as long as 10(10^26) (1 followed by 1026(100 septillion) zeros) years with the temperature dropping to around 10−30 K (10−30 C above absolute zero).

Live Science contributor Ashley Hamer updated this article on Jan. 27, 2022.

Please do feel free to address my above expressed views, and critique them according to your own understanding or even greater scientific knowledge which you routinely claim. I am certainly not above learning something, as I learn all the time from my studies and or debates if you will. I feel pretty sure that your views involve as stated before, a separation or disconnect of sorts between the tendencies outlined in the second law under examination, and the progressive changes necessary to the theory of evolution. Again though, I do not know, since you have never expounded upon them. If at all possible, please respond and address my above observations without derogatory or insulting comments. Having greater knowledge and therefore understanding of a particular subject than someone else, does not in any way shape or form equal being superior to them. Certainly not to the point of degrading our insulting them, even if you are right. There is nothing wrong with a bible believer expressing disdain for certain views of others, as long as they do not shift that disdain toward the individuals themselves. Let us proceed as addressing certain views and or beliefs, rather than individuals. Seeing that as a matter of fact, there are many subscribing to both or more views. Thanks.

I will point out only one fundamental error which you make.  You said,

Quote from: Amo on Sun Dec 24, 2023 - 11:22:41In that of course the second law determines that all things tend toward increasing disorder and or entropy.

That is simply not true.  That is true only in a closed system.  In that closed system some things can decrease in disorder and entropy while other things increase.  The only restriction is that the sum total of the system increases in entropy and disorder. Your refrigerator is a perfect example. Water that freezes decreases in entropy.  In fact everything that you put in the refrigerator decreases in entropy.  But it is not a closed system.  It requires input of energy from outside the refrigerator system.

In the same way, the earth is not a close system.  Therefore the entire earth as a system can actually decrease in entropy. It can do so because it is receiving energy from outside, namely from the sun.

Nothing about the "standard" view of the expansion of the universe from the Big Bang stands in violation of the 2nd law of thermo. It was at its lowest in entropy at its beginning and has been increasing every since. Some things within the universe may well decrease. Note here that the "standard" view of the Big Bang makes no statement of how it was initiated. My view is that once God created the Big Bang with all the attendant natural physical laws, it progressed much as postulated, even if there is much more yet to learn.

I certainly think that same can be said of the biological processes observed here on earth. I think that once God created life with all the attendant natural biological laws it progressed much as postulated, even if there is much more yet to learn.

Most of the rest of your comments in blue are misguided by your lack of understanding of Thermodynamics.  I am sorry that I cannot teach what I learned from undergraduate semesters, let alone any graduate levels, of Thermo in this forum.  You will have to take that up on your own.  But you will need some preparatory work in math and physics before you do that.

And none of this is meant to be derogatory.  It is just factual.

QuoteThat is simply not true.  That is true only in a closed system.  In that closed system some things can decrease in disorder and entropy while other things increase.  The only restriction is that the sum total of the system increases in entropy and disorder. Your refrigerator is a perfect example. Water that freezes decreases in entropy.  In fact everything that you put in the refrigerator decreases in entropy.  But it is not a closed system.  It requires input of energy from outside the refrigerator system.

In the same way, the earth is not a close system.  Therefore the entire earth as a system can actually decrease in entropy. It can do so because it is receiving energy from outside, namely from the sun.

What happens when the outside source of energy runs out of energy to supply? Isn't that the eventual scenario as the article I posted declared:

"The Second Law also predicts the end of the universe, according to Boston University. "It implies that the universe will end in a 'heat death' in which everything is at the same temperature. This is the ultimate level of disorder; if everything is at the same temperature, no work can be done, and all the energy will end up as the random motion of atoms and molecules."

While a refrigerator may provide an example of decreased disorder and entropy by receiving energy outside of the refrigerator system, I don't see how such is an aid to your position on this issue. Refrigerators are complex ordered and designed machines suiting an exact purpose. This is exactly what is missing from big bang to where we are today scenario, excluding God or some other mechanism of design involved from the get go. Of course you allow for God creating the big bang, but I'm not sure what other involvement you allow for after that.

QuoteNothing about the "standard" view of the expansion of the universe from the Big Bang stands in violation of the 2nd law of thermo. It was at its lowest in entropy at its beginning and has been increasing ever since. Some things within the universe may well decrease. Note here that the "standard" view of the Big Bang makes no statement of how it was initiated. My view is that once God created the Big Bang with all the attendant natural physical laws, it progressed much as postulated, even if there is much more yet to learn.

I certainly think that same can be said of the biological processes observed here on earth. I think that once God created life with all the attendant natural biological laws it progressed much as postulated, even if there is much more yet to learn.

I think so as well. I just think so according to the young earth creation account of scripture as literal events, while you incorporate the theory of evolution into the mix. We may differ though, according to the continuance of the processes of life, change, and even energy itself. I don't believe any of it would continue and or exist short of God Himself sustaining and basically holding it together.

Col 1:15 He is the exact living image [the essential manifestation] of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible], the firstborn [the preeminent one, the sovereign, and the originator] of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created in heaven and on earth, [things] visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [that is, by His activity] and for Him. 17 And He Himself existed and is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. [His is the controlling, cohesive force of the universe.] 18 He is also the head [the life-source and leader] of the body, the [e]church; and He is the beginning, [f]the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will occupy the first place [He will stand supreme and be preeminent] in everything. 19 For it pleased the Father for all the fullness [of deity—the sum total of His essence, all His perfection, powers, and attributes] to dwell [permanently] in Him (the Son), 20 and through [the intervention of] the Son to reconcile all things to Himself, making peace [with believers] through the blood of His cross; through Him, [I say,] whether things on earth or things in heaven.(AMP)

QuoteMost of the rest of your comments in blue are misguided by your lack of understanding of Thermodynamics.  I am sorry that I cannot teach what I learned from undergraduate semesters, let alone any graduate levels, of Thermo in this forum.  You will have to take that up on your own.  But you will need some preparatory work in math and physics before you do that.

And none of this is meant to be derogatory.  It is just factual.

Nothing derogatory about the above statement, which is of a far milder tone than past comments. The problem is not really with my understanding and or the limits thereof, but rather the controversy which exists between those on both sides of this issue, who do understand and are educated concerning the things you are speaking of. If not for that, there would be no controversy from my end. The people in the know, do not all agree. My observations are concerning that which is easily comprehendible by most. Either things tend toward disorder and entropy, or they do not. That much is certainly not rocket science. We both believe that something brought about order and complexity of a magnitude which we still do not anywhere near fully comprehend. The debate is concerning the likelihood or not, of such developing without design or creation by an intelligence far beyond our own. 

The following post will submit an argument from someone who I'm pretty sure understands the more minute details of the second law of thermodynamics at least as well as you do. Who takes issue with your above quoted position.

https://answersingenesis.org/physics/second-law-of-thermodynamics/

Quoted article below from link above.

Does the Second Law of Thermodynamics Favor Evolution?

The second law of thermodynamics has long been a topic of discussion in the evolution/creation debate. What is the second law of thermodynamics? Let us start with the first law of thermodynamics—that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. While the total amount of energy is conserved, energy can be transferred and converted into different forms. We observe that in these changes, energy becomes less useful to us. To quantify this observation, physicists define a term, entropy, to describe how un-useful energy is. Thermodynamic entropy is defined by energy divided by temperature, expressed on an absolute scale. The preferred unit of energy is the Joule (J), and the preferred absolute temperature scale is Kelvin (K), so entropy is properly expressed in J/K. The second law of thermodynamics can be stated a number of different ways. The simplest form is that entropy never decreases. We normally use the letter S to represent entropy, and the Greek letter ∆ to represent a change, so mathematically we express the second law of thermodynamics as ∆S ≥ 0.

This expression shows that, while entropy can be increased, it cannot be decreased. This peculiarity introduces an asymmetry that makes the second law of thermodynamics fundamentally different from the first law, and from many other laws of physics. While other physical laws permit changes that can go either way in time, the second law works only one way. Any process that follows other physical laws is permitted, as long as entropy does not decrease. Thus, the second law imposes a direction to time, so some physicists and philosophers refer to the second law of thermodynamics as time's arrow.

Technically, the second law of thermodynamics applies to the universe as a whole. The entropy of the universe cannot decrease, though it may increase, and it often does. Thus, the universe has an ever-increasing entropy burden. If the universe were eternal, the universe would have had more than ample time to have reached a state of maximum entropy. We observe that the universe is far from a state of maximum entropy, so the universe cannot be eternal. This point is significant, because until about a half century ago, many scientists thought that the universe was eternal, despite this clear indication by the second law of thermodynamics to the contrary.

While the second law of thermodynamics applies to the universe as a whole, we also can apply the second law to subsystems of the universe. We usually call a subsystem of the universe a system. A system can absorb energy from other parts of the universe so that thermodynamic entropy decreases. How is this possible? The entropy changes of surrounding systems that donate the energy to the system in question have corresponding increases in entropy that more than offset the entropy decrease. For instance, consider two objects that have different temperatures. If we bring these two objects into thermal contact so that they exchange heat, we find that heat (a form of energy) flows from the hotter to the cooler object until the two objects are at the same temperature. At this point, heat flow ceases. The initially cooler object absorbs energy, so it experiences a positive heat flow. We use the letter Q to denote heat, so we express its heat flow as ∆Q. Since the initially hotter object supplies the heat for this transfer, it experiences a -∆Q heat flow. That is, the heat flows of the two objects are opposite and equal. This is a consequence of the first law of thermodynamics.

However, the entropy changes of the two objects will not be opposite and equal. Let TH be the temperature of the initially hotter object and TC be the temperature of the initially cooler object. Both TH and TC continually change in a complex way until both are equal. Entropy is the heat flow divided by temperature, so at each moment the entropy change of the hotter object will be ∆SH = -∆Q/TH, while the entropy change of the cooler object will be ∆SC = ∆Q/TC. These two quantities are complex functions of time, but the numerators will be the same at each instant. Note that ∆SH always will be negative, while ∆SC always will be positive. Furthermore, TH always will be greater than TC, so |∆SH| always will be less than |∆SC|, so that the sum of the entropy change will be positive. Always. This is why we observe that heat always flows from hotter to cooler and not the other way around. If heat were to flow from cooler to hotter, that would produce a decrease in entropy, a violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

As mentioned earlier, the second law of thermodynamics can be expressed many different ways. We do not have time to discuss most of these, but it is important to discuss one. An important manifestation of entropy is that it measures the amount of disorder. Since entropy continually increases, or at least cannot decrease, it follows that disorder must increase, or at least not decrease. If disorder cannot decrease, then order cannot increase. It is this version of the second law of thermodynamics that leads to discussion of the naturalistic origin of life and biological evolution. Living organisms obviously are highly ordered systems, far more ordered than non-living things. The naturalistic origin of life would require that non-living things gave rise to living things, which would amount to an increase in order and thus would appear to violate the second law of thermodynamics. Furthermore, biological evolution would be the development of life over time, which involves increasing order, which also appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics.

Evolutionists have offered various theories of how the naturalistic origin and development of life does not violate the second law of thermodynamics. One approach is to note that the second law of thermodynamics applies only to isolated systems. An isolated system exchanges neither matter nor energy with its surroundings. A closed system exchanges energy but not matter with its surroundings. An open system exchanges both matter and energy with its surroundings. Living things are continually exchanging both energy and matter with their surroundings, so they clearly are open systems or occasionally closed systems, but are not isolated systems. However, merely being an open system does not automatically mean that entropy decreases. Life depends upon a huge number of complex biochemical reactions continually operating. These biochemical reactions operate opposite to the direction that they would naturally proceed. That is, living things synthesize simpler molecules into more complex ones. The inputs are matter (the less complex molecules) and energy (required to bond the more complex molecules), which is why living things are open systems. However, these inputs are insufficient in themselves to circumvent the second law of thermodynamics. The direction of the chemical reactions normally is decay from the more complex to simpler molecules, the opposite of what living things require to exist. How do they do this? Living things have complex machinery in the form of organelles (within cells) and structures such as tissue, organs, and systems (in the case of multi-celled organisms that convert matter and energy into the complex molecules required for life). Ultimately, the construction and operation of these machines is regulated by DNA, also included within cells. Both the physical machinery and the coded instructions represented a tremendous amount of order within living things. Some people call this order information. How could this order or information come about naturally?

The physical chemist Ilya Prigogine (1917–2003) wrote extensively on dissipative structures as a mechanism that he thought would bring about self-organization. Dissipative structures (a term coined by Prigogine) refers to structures that that can come about when an environment is far from thermodynamic equilibrium. Self-organization describes an orderly arrangement that occasionally appears to arise in matter spontaneously. A crystal is the best example of this. For instance, salt dissolved in water can form into crystals, an orderly array of units of sodium chloride. However, there are at least two problems with this analogy to living things. First, the salt + water system is an open system. It can and does exchange energy and matter with its surroundings in order to precipitate salt crystals. That is, salt crystals do not spontaneously form from a salt water solution. Second, crystals are simply ordered sequences which contain very little actual information. Salt crystals lack specified complexity, i.e., their structure is caused by the properties of their constituent parts and not imposed by some outside intelligent process as is the case for living organisms.

Nevertheless, Prigogine and others have argued that materials that formed into the first living things somehow organized themselves this way, though it is not clear at all how, given that these materials do not form ionic bonds as crystals do. Furthermore, any simple structures that might occasionally form small ordered regions fall many orders of magnitude short of the complexity required for any form of life. Evolutionists argue that selective effects, such as those that supposedly drive evolution, could preserve and accumulate this order until finally life came about. However, even crystals that form out of solution, such as salt, cease to produce any more order once they form. If anything, once crystals form, they accumulate defects in their crystal structure, which is less ordered and hence follows the second law of thermodynamics. That is, even open systems generally follow the second law of thermodynamics. To expect that life somehow developed from this is a gross extrapolation. Despite this, Prigogine received the 1977 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his work on this.

In similar manner, evolutionists propose that once enough order arose to allow for DNA and the machinery of cells, further random changes led to increased order. Again, the appeal is made to the magic of open systems. But merely being an open system in not sufficient to contradict the second law of thermodynamics. The moment after a living thing dies, the machinery and coded instructions still remain. Furthermore, a just-deceased organism is capable of exchanging matter and energy with its surroundings, making it still an open system. However, the indescribable spark of life is absent, and the machinery no longer works. The chemical reactions go in the direction that will re-establish thermodynamic equilibrium, and the molecules become less complex, not more complex. Given this, the appeal to an open system to rescue the day for evolution is not demonstrated and amounts to hand-waving and gross extrapolation.

Unfortunately, not all discussions of the second law of thermodynamics and biological evolution from a creation perspective have been as well thought out and presented as they ought to have been. Hence, both sides have committed some errors. The problem for creationists is that we have yet to generate a rigorously formulated entropy-based hypothesis that clearly shows that life cannot arise through natural undirected processes. However, evolutionists generally have failed to produce a reasonable argument which agrees with observation that the second law of thermodynamics does not prohibit evolution.

Quote from: Amo on Wed Dec 27, 2023 - 11:32:25https://answersingenesis.org/physics/second-law-of-thermodynamics/

Quoted article below from link above.

I will give you a good rule to follow.  Answersingenesis is not a very good source for learning about or understanding science.

And specifically, do not quote answersingenesis to me in technical areas I have degrees in and areas that I spent my entire professional career in.

Whoever wrote the article you posted knew just enough about thermo to be really dangerous. Either that or he is exceedingly sloppy in his presentation.  And I expect that the same could be said about his handling of biological systems, but I am not really capable of determining that.

The one thing that I am sure of is that if God wanted to create biological systems to respond as observed and proposed by evolutionary processes, He certainly could have done that without violating his own natural laws.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Dec 27, 2023 - 13:04:38I will give you a good rule to follow.  Answersingenesis is not a very good source for learning about or understanding science.

And specifically, do not quote answersingenesis to me in technical areas I have degrees in and areas that I spent my entire professional career in.

Whoever wrote the article you posted knew just enough about thermo to be really dangerous. Either that or he is exceedingly sloppy in his presentation.  And I expect that the same could be said about his handling of biological systems, but I am not really capable of determining that.

The one thing that I am sure of is that if God wanted to create biological systems to respond as observed and proposed by evolutionary processes, He certainly could have done that without violating his own natural laws.

https://answersingenesis.org/bios/danny-faulkner/

Dr. Danny Faulkner holds an MS in physics from Clemson University, an MA and a PhD in astronomy from Indiana University, and he taught at the University of South Carolina—Lancaster for over 26 years. He has published over 100 papers in various journals...........

EDUCATION
PhD, Astronomy, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana, USA, 1989
MA, Astronomy, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana, USA, 1983
MS, Physics, Clemson University, Clemson, South Carolina, USA, 1979
BS, Math, Bob Jones University, Greenville, South Carolina, USA, 1976

PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE
Researcher, Author, Speaker, Answers in Genesis, Petersburg, Kentucky, USA, 2013–Present
Professor of Astronomy/Physics, University of South Carolina—Lancaster, Lancaster, South Carolina, USA
Chair, Division of Math, Science, Nursing & Public Health, University of South Carolina—Lancaster, Lancaster, South Carolina, USA, 2009–2012

PROFESSIONAL AFFILIATIONS
American Astronomical Society
Creation Research Society (member of the board of directors)
Sigma Xi

Quote from: Amo on Wed Dec 27, 2023 - 14:19:11https://answersingenesis.org/bios/danny-faulkner/

Dr. Danny Faulkner holds an MS in physics from Clemson University, an MA and a PhD in astronomy from Indiana University, and he taught at the University of South Carolina—Lancaster for over 26 years. He has published over 100 papers in various journals...........

EDUCATION
PhD, Astronomy, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana, USA, 1989
MA, Astronomy, Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana, USA, 1983
MS, Physics, Clemson University, Clemson, South Carolina, USA, 1979
BS, Math, Bob Jones University, Greenville, South Carolina, USA, 1976

PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE
Researcher, Author, Speaker, Answers in Genesis, Petersburg, Kentucky, USA, 2013–Present
Professor of Astronomy/Physics, University of South Carolina—Lancaster, Lancaster, South Carolina, USA
Chair, Division of Math, Science, Nursing & Public Health, University of South Carolina—Lancaster, Lancaster, South Carolina, USA, 2009–2012

PROFESSIONAL AFFILIATIONS
American Astronomical Society
Creation Research Society (member of the board of directors)
Sigma Xi

He should be more careful about his words on Thermo.  I don't know how he does on the rest of his stuff, but he certainly comes up short there.

Amo,
Let me make a comment here.  I understand what Faulkner is trying to say.  And I don't necessarily disagree with him. I do not believe life simply grew out of inanimate stuff.   I believe that God created life. But that view is not strengthened by any scientific argument as Faulkner is trying to do.  Once God has created life, then any changes that occur in that life after creation can, I believe, be quite in accord with God's natural law.

I would argue that while there are atheistic evolutionists who try to argue for some inanimate to animate transition, I do not think that is an official stance of scientific evolution.  There is no science which can support that. Science has never ever come close to demonstrating that, no matter how hard it is tried.

But Faulkner isn't making that argument very well when he makes statements like "Furthermore, biological evolution would be the development of life over time, which involves increasing order, which also appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics."

Faulkner is wrong. Increasing order does not violate the second law of thermodynamics. It happens all the time. It is happening in every refrigerator on earth every day. It happens on the earth in so many ways continually and constantly. That is because neither refrigerators nor the earth constitute closed systems.

That God created anything is not fact, it is faith.  If it were a fact, there would be no need for faith.  God has made sure of that.  If He wanted to demonstrate creation as fact, He would have had no problem in doing that.  He didn't. 

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Dec 28, 2023 - 06:19:55Amo,
Let me make a comment here.  I understand what Faulkner is trying to say.  And I don't necessarily disagree with him. I do not believe life simply grew out of inanimate stuff.  I believe that God created life. But that view is not strengthened by any scientific argument as Faulkner is trying to do.  Once God has created life, then any changes that occur in that life after creation can, I believe, be quite in accord with God's natural law.

I would argue that while there are atheistic evolutionists who try to argue for some inanimate to animate transition, I do not think that is an official stance of scientific evolution.  There is no science which can support that. Science has never ever come close to demonstrating that, no matter how hard it is tried.

But Faulkner isn't making that argument very well when he makes statements like "Furthermore, biological evolution would be the development of life over time, which involves increasing order, which also appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics."

Faulkner is wrong. Increasing order does not violate the second law of thermodynamics. It happens all the time. It is happening in every refrigerator on earth every day. It happens on the earth in so many ways continually and constantly. That is because neither refrigerators nor the earth constitute closed systems.

That God created anything is not fact, it is faith.  If it were a fact, there would be no need for faith.  God has made sure of that.  If He wanted to demonstrate creation as fact, He would have had no problem in doing that.  He didn't.

Agreed, in that the entire issue boils down to faith on either side. Would you agree, that before the fall of humanity, creation was indeed accepted fact among those who were often in the literal presence of God? Who witnessed creation? That the faith issue is on this fallen world alone, basically because we have been separated God? From the literal presence of God almighty, and the rest of His creation, including other created beings who could testify to us concerning the certain reality of creation. Is this not a central issue of faith addressed in scripture?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

That such truth is also an intricate part of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made..................
14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Dec 28, 2023 - 07:34:28Agreed, in that the entire issue boils down to faith on either side. Would you agree, that before the fall of humanity, creation was indeed accepted fact among those who were often in the literal presence of God? Who witnessed creation? That the faith issue is on this fallen world alone, basically because we have been separated God? From the literal presence of God almighty, and the rest of His creation, including other created beings who could testify to us concerning the certain reality of creation. Is this not a central issue of faith addressed in scripture?

Let me just say that I do not hold to your view of "fallen humanity". I believe that each of us, once we reach the age of accountability, eventually sins against God and becomes a sinner. In that sense we fall, but that is on us, individually not on Adam or anyone else.  The "fall" is not a humanity thing; rather, it is an individual thing.  And I believe that to be the case because God created us with free will.  He did that because He wanted a community of beings who choose to love and obey Him. Such a choice can be possible only from faith, not from proven fact. 

Remember, even Moses was not allowed to experience the "fact" of seeing God. John said in 1:18 that "no one has seen God at any time". If He were to make Himself known as a proven fact, then He would receive obedience without love. That is not what He wants.  He wants love with obedience.  That is the message of Romans 8:19-30 and specifically verse 28.

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Dec 28, 2023 - 08:23:07Let me just say that I do not hold to your view of "fallen humanity". I believe that each of us, once we reach the age of accountability, eventually sins against God and becomes a sinner. In that sense we fall, but that is on us, individually not on Adam or anyone else.  The "fall" is not a humanity thing; rather, it is an individual thing.  And I believe that to be the case because God created us with free will.  He did that because He wanted a community of beings who choose to love and obey Him. Such a choice can be possible only from faith, not from proven fact. 

Remember, even Moses was not allowed to experience the "fact" of seeing God. John said in 1:18 that "no one has seen God at any time". If He were to make Himself known as a proven fact, then He would receive obedience without love. That is not what He wants.  He wants love with obedience.  That is the message of Romans 8:19-30 and specifically verse 28.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Born in sin at birth, or bound to sin after, equal the same result. Humanities desperate need of salvation. A condition which did not exist before what some term the fall. One man brought sin and death upon all, and one Man brought justification and therefore salvation upon all. If they will just care to accept it.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

When Adam sinned, humanity became the servants of the one whom he obeyed over and above God. Only those in Christ Jesus our Lord are delivered from servitude to the evil one.

We of course no doubt differ as well, concerning how the entire world changed after sin. Our different faiths concerning creationism or evolutionism being the determining factor.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Dec 29, 2023 - 20:58:13Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Born in sin at birth, or bound to sin after, equal the same result. Humanities desperate need of salvation. A condition which did not exist before what some term the fall. One man brought sin and death upon all, and one Man brought justification and therefore salvation upon all. If they will just care to accept it.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

When Adam sinned, humanity became the servants of the one whom he obeyed over and above God. Only those in Christ Jesus our Lord are delivered from servitude to the evil one.

We of course no doubt differ as well, concerning how the entire world changed after sin. Our different faiths concerning creationism or evolutionism being the determining factor.

Once more we see the Romans 5 passage quoted with so little understanding of its meaning. I should just forget it, but it is much too important to do that.  I will admit that the interpretation you give it is a common one, even if totally and completely wrong.

First on verse 12.  You have posted the KJV for that verse and that, in itself, I believe causes some confusion.

(KJV)Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The wording, "for that all....", seems to be saying "by one man sin entered into the world and for that reason all have sinned"  It is interesting to note that is close to the way that the NIV has interpreted it:

(NIV)Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

But that is a very poor interpretation.  What verse 12 is saying is that sin entered the world through Adam and death through that sin.  That is, he was the first; before him there was no sin.  (And by the way, that is spiritual death, not physical death. The reason for physical death is given in Genesis 3:22.) What verse 12 doesn't say is that Adam was the cause of death spreading to all men.  What it says is that death spread to all men because all men sinned.  Adam was the first to die from his trespasses and sins. All men after Adam died from their own trespasses and sins.  That is fully consistent with Ephesians 2:1,2 which says "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked...." and with Colossians 2:13 which says, "And you, who were dead in your trespasses...."

So it is perfectly clear, to me at least, that Adam was simply the first to sin and become dead in his sin; but Adam was not the cause of everyone else being dead in trespasses and sin.  Everyone else is dead in their trespasses and sins BECAUSE THEY ALL SINNED.

So let's go to the next verse you highlighted; that is, verse 15, (ESV)But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

You highlighted the first part and apparently ignored the second part. You did the same thing with verses 17,18 and 19.  But the point that Paul is trying to make in all of those verses is not what you underlined.  The whole point is contained in the second parts of each of those verses.

Now getting back to verse 15. You underlined the first part which  says that if MANY died because of Adam, MANY received much more grace and the free gift of grace because of Jesus Christ.  You, and so many others, really screw up the interpretation of that verse. There is, in fact, no reason to assume the MANY that died because of Adam to be any different than the MANY that received the grace and the free gift of grace because of Jesus Christ.

But you would ask, "How can that be? Surely not everyone is saved." And you would be right.  So then, we must determine who the MANY are. You would probably say that the MANY who died because of Adam is every human being who has been born or will ever be born.  I would tell you that you are correct. So then who  are the MANY who received the grace and the free gift of grace because of Jesus Christ.  And I would say that they are the very same; they are every human being who has been born or will ever be born.  The key here is understand that it is at birth.  What that is telling us is that the grace of Jesus Christ negated the offence of Adam to every human being who has been born or will ever be born. When?  At birth of course.

Bear in mind that so far, the discussion is only between the effects of Adam's sin and Jesus' grace.  So then, while you say that Adam's sin brought Original Sin into the world, I say that Jesus negated that by bringing Original Grace into the world.

And I would argue that verses 17, 18 and 19 all make that same argument. In each and every one of those verses, the point Paul is making is that the gift of the grace through Jesus Christ for all men negated the death through the sin of Adam for all men.

Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.


It is not Original Sin.  It is Original Grace.  Everyone is born righteous.

So now go back to verse 12. Why has death (spiritual death) passed to all man?  Because all men have sinned.  They didn't start off that way. What about the fact that all have sinned?  Paul addresses that in the very next chapter, chapter 6.  Actually, he begins that in verses 20 and 21 of chapter 5. But it is answered directly and completely in verse 4 of Chapter 6.  Paul says there, "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

To "walk in the newness of life" is to be born again, to be regenerated.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Dec 30, 2023 - 07:06:11Once more we see the Romans 5 passage quoted with so little understanding of its meaning. I should just forget it, but it is much too important to do that.  I will admit that the interpretation you give it is a common one, even if totally and completely wrong.

First on verse 12.  You have posted the KJV for that verse and that, in itself, I believe causes some confusion.

(KJV)Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The wording, "for that all....", seems to be saying "by one man sin entered into the world and for that reason all have sinned"  It is interesting to note that is close to the way that the NIV has interpreted it:

(NIV)Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned--

But that is a very poor interpretation.  What verse 12 is saying is that sin entered the world through Adam and death through that sin.  That is, he was the first; before him there was no sin.  (And by the way, that is spiritual death, not physical death. The reason for physical death is given in Genesis 3:22.) What verse 12 doesn't say is that Adam was the cause of death spreading to all men.  What it says is that death spread to all men because all men sinned.  Adam was the first to die from his trespasses and sins. All men after Adam died from their own trespasses and sins.  That is fully consistent with Ephesians 2:1,2 which says "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked...." and with Colossians 2:13 which says, "And you, who were dead in your trespasses...."

So it is perfectly clear, to me at least, that Adam was simply the first to sin and become dead in his sin; but Adam was not the cause of everyone else being dead in trespasses and sin.  Everyone else is dead in their trespasses and sins BECAUSE THEY ALL SINNED.

So let's go to the next verse you highlighted; that is, verse 15, (ESV)But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

You highlighted the first part and apparently ignored the second part. You did the same thing with verses 17,18 and 19.  But the point that Paul is trying to make in all of those verses is not what you underlined.  The whole point is contained in the second parts of each of those verses.

Now getting back to verse 15. You underlined the first part which  says that if MANY died because of Adam, MANY received much more grace and the free gift of grace because of Jesus Christ.  You, and so many others, really screw up the interpretation of that verse. There is, in fact, no reason to assume the MANY that died because of Adam to be any different than the MANY that received the grace and the free gift of grace because of Jesus Christ.

But you would ask, "How can that be? Surely not everyone is saved." And you would be right.  So then, we must determine who the MANY are. You would probably say that the MANY who died because of Adam is every human being who has been born or will ever be born.  I would tell you that you are correct. So then who  are the MANY who received the grace and the free gift of grace because of Jesus Christ.  And I would say that they are the very same; they are every human being who has been born or will ever be born.  The key here is understand that it is at birth.  What that is telling us is that the grace of Jesus Christ negated the offence of Adam to every human being who has been born or will ever be born. When?  At birth of course.

Bear in mind that so far, the discussion is only between the effects of Adam's sin and Jesus' grace.  So then, while you say that Adam's sin brought Original Sin into the world, I say that Jesus negated that by bringing Original Grace into the world.

And I would argue that verses 17, 18 and 19 all make that same argument. In each and every one of those verses, the point Paul is making is that the gift of the grace through Jesus Christ for all men negated the death through the sin of Adam for all men.

Rom 5:18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19  For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.


It is not Original Sin.  It is Original Grace.  Everyone is born righteous.

So now go back to verse 12. Why has death (spiritual death) passed to all man?  Because all men have sinned.  They didn't start off that way. What about the fact that all have sinned?  Paul addresses that in the very next chapter, chapter 6.  Actually, he begins that in verses 20 and 21 of chapter 5. But it is answered directly and completely in verse 4 of Chapter 6.  Paul says there, "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

To "walk in the newness of life" is to be born again, to be regenerated.

I am not sure what you are saying you think that I believe. So here is what I believe - All were in Adam , the first representative of humanity when he sinned, and all were in Christ when He as the second salvific representative of humanity lived a righteous life and died the death we deserve. Because of this, all can choose to remain the old man who is dead in trespasses and sin, or to be born again in Christ Jesus our Lord unto redemption from sin and death.

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death passed from Adam upon all of humanity, and only those who are born again can be saved. The fact that we must be born again, is proof enough that there was and is something wrong with us from birth, which obviously leads to death. We may not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, whether we sin because we are born sinners, or become sinners the moment we actually inevitably sin, this side of heaven. Nevertheless, the remedy for either is the same. That all were in Christ Jesus our Lord on the cross, when He died the death we deserve. Now all and any who care enough to join Him there, can be born again unto eternal salvation.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Dec 30, 2023 - 14:10:20I am not sure what you are saying you think that I believe. So here is what I believe - All were in Adam , the first representative of humanity when he sinned,

I really don't know what that even means.  I certainly wasn't there when Adam sinned and neither were you.

The phrase, "in Adam" appears only in 1 Corinthians 15:22.  There it only means "being a human being". There is nothing about that that says that man was born as a sinful being. It is speaking of being human and dying and being resurrected when Christ returns at the end of the age.

It is saying the mortality of the flesh came by Adam, the immortality of the spirit came by Jesus. And even in that there is no distinction between the good and the bad.  All die, all will be resurrected. What happens after that isn't really discussed there in that chapter.  But for what happens to the good and the bad, you have to look elsewhere. The closet it comes to distinguishing the good and the bad is in the order of the resurrections in the next verse, verse 23. So even in that verse, the phrase, "in Christ" cannot be limited to believers, to those born again since all will be resurrected.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Dec 30, 2023 - 15:47:34I really don't know what that even means.  I certainly wasn't there when Adam sinned and neither were you.

The phrase, "in Adam" appears only in 1 Corinthians 15:22.  There it only means "being a human being". There is nothing about that that says that man was born as a sinful being. It is speaking of being human and dying and being resurrected when Christ returns at the end of the age.

It is saying the mortality of the flesh came by Adam, the immortality of the spirit came by Jesus. And even in that there is no distinction between the good and the bad.  All die, all will be resurrected. What happens after that isn't really discussed there in that chapter.  But for what happens to the good and the bad, you have to look elsewhere. The closet it comes to distinguishing the good and the bad is in the order of the resurrections in the next verse, verse 23. So even in that verse, the phrase, "in Christ" cannot be limited to believers, to those born again since all will be resurrected.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUV8dEIQYt8

Good video regarding whale fossils and the flood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym2lgfaQO0s

Another good one about coal and the flood.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Jan 13, 2024 - 15:22:02Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is always interesting to watch the Original Sinner types completely miss the whole point of Paul's message. First, let's read it not from the KJV which at best is often clumsy for the modern English reader.

Second, Let's understand that nearly all of this is a discussion of the difference between the effects upon the entire human race of the sin of Adam and the obedience of Jesus.  If the effect of the sin of Adam is upon mankind at birth, then the effect of the obedience of Jesus must also be upon mankind at birth.  That is required by the construction in the AS....SO format.

It is important to understand that in that format, it is the ...SO portion of the discussion that is the key point being made.

It is not a discussion of the effect of Jesus' obedience on the sins of man.  That discussion comes later in Chapter Six; actually beginning with verse 20 in Chapter five.


Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13  for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14  Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15  But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16  And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17  For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Now then in reading it correctly with the emphasis being placed on the second phrases in each of the sentences, it becomes clear that no matter that it might appear that the effect of Adam's sin is upon mankind at birth is condemnation, what Paul is saying is that the effect of Jesus' obedience upon mankind at birth is to negate the effect of Adam's sin.  Thus original sin resulting from Adam's sin was fully negated by the original grace resulting from Jesus' obedience. Original Grace made null and void any Original Sin.

I would point out here that this is in full accord with the entire Chapter 18 in Ezekiel where God declares several times in several ways that "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself" (v.20).

That begins with the father Adam and his sons and continued thereafter.  Mankind comes into this world each with a spirit formed in him by God that is free from any effects of Adam's sin.  Man was created in God's image and that has not changed. That image was spirit.  God is Spirit. Man's spirit is in the image of God.   

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 04:58:45It is always interesting to watch the Original Sinner types completely miss the whole point of Paul's message. First, let's read it not from the KJV which at best is often clumsy for the modern English reader.

Second, Let's understand that nearly all of this is a discussion of the difference between the effects upon the entire human race of the sin of Adam and the obedience of Jesus.  If the effect of the sin of Adam is upon mankind at birth, then the effect of the obedience of Jesus must also be upon mankind at birth.  That is required by the construction in the AS....SO format.

It is important to understand that in that format, it is the ...SO portion of the discussion that is the key point being made.

It is not a discussion of the effect of Jesus' obedience on the sins of man.  That discussion comes later in Chapter Six; actually beginning with verse 20 in Chapter five.


Rom 5:12  Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13  for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14  Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15  But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16  And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17  For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18  Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

Now then in reading it correctly with the emphasis being placed on the second phrases in each of the sentences, it becomes clear that no matter that it might appear that the effect of Adam's sin is upon mankind at birth is condemnation, what Paul is saying is that the effect of Jesus' obedience upon mankind at birth is to negate the effect of Adam's sin.  Thus original sin resulting from Adam's sin was fully negated by the original grace resulting from Jesus' obedience. Original Grace made null and void any Original Sin.

I would point out here that this is in full accord with the entire Chapter 18 in Ezekiel where God declares several times in several ways that "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself" (v.20).

That begins with the father Adam and his sons and continued thereafter.  Mankind comes into this world each with a spirit formed in him by God that is free from any effects of Adam's sin.  Man was created in God's image and that has not changed. That image was spirit.  God is Spirit. Man's spirit is in the image of God.

The verses under examination are most obviously addressing the effects of Adam' sin upon all of humanity, and the effects of Christ's righteousness upon all of humanity. I am not denying either, you are denying one. What Adam did affected all of humanity from birth from then on. What Christ did affected all of humanity from then on also. The former by and of the flesh, the latter by and of the spirit, that is to say, by faith. Humanity was only allowed to continue by the grace of God in Christ Jesus our lord, that they might make the one decision alone that really matters. Salvation by rebirth in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If the plan of salvation had not already been put in place by the infinite forethought of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, humanity would have begun and ended in Adam and Eve. Life on earth only continued because the LAMB OF GOD was slain from the foundation of this world. So yes, as a matter of fact, all of humanity was immediately effected by both Adam's sin in disobedience to God, and our Saviors obedience to God. Being born by the grace of Christ's righteousness alone, with the sinful nature of Adam and Eve, to be overcome in Christ alone or not. Therefore must the saved be born again of the spirit, and not the flesh.


Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned. 13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it]. 14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who had not sinned [c]as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction, Christ brought salvation].
15 But the free gift [of God] is not like the trespass [because the gift of grace overwhelms the fall of man]. For if many died by one man's trespass [Adam's sin], much more [abundantly] did God's grace and the gift [that comes] by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to [benefit] the many. 16 Nor is the gift [of grace] like that which came through the one who sinned. For on the one hand the judgment [following the sin] resulted from one trespass and brought condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift resulted from many trespasses and brought justification [the release from sin's penalty for those who believe]. 17 For if by the trespass of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one (Adam), much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [eternal] life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one trespass [Adam's sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to [d]all men. 19 For just as through one man's disobedience [his failure to hear, his carelessness] the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous and acceptable to God and brought into right standing with Him. 20 But the Law came to increase and expand [the awareness of] the trespass [by defining and unmasking sin]. But where sin increased, [God's remarkable, gracious gift of] grace [His unmerited favor] has surpassed it and increased all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness which brings eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(AMP)

Rom 5:12 Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [[h]no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned.
13 [To be sure] sin was in the world before ever the Law was given, but sin is not charged to men's account where there is no law [to transgress]. 14 Yet death held sway from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who did not themselves transgress [a positive command] as Adam did. Adam was a type (prefigure) of the One Who was to come [in reverse, the former destructive, the Latter saving]. 15 But God's free gift is not at all to be compared to the trespass [His grace is out of all proportion to the fall of man]. For if many died through one man's falling away (his lapse, his offense), much more profusely did God's grace and the free gift [that comes] through the undeserved favor of the one Man Jesus Christ abound and overflow to and for [the benefit of] many. 16 Nor is the free gift at all to be compared to the effect of that one [man's] sin. For the sentence [following the trespass] of one [man] brought condemnation, whereas the free gift [following] many transgressions brings justification ([j]an act of righteousness). 17 For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God's] overflowing grace (unmerited favor) and the free gift of righteousness [putting them into right standing with Himself] reign as kings in life through the one Man Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). 18 Well then, as one man's trespass [one man's false step and falling away led] to condemnation for all men, so one Man's act of righteousness [leads] to acquittal and right standing with God and life for all men. 19 For just as by one man's disobedience (failing to hear, [k]heedlessness, and carelessness) the many were constituted sinners, so by one Man's obedience the many will be constituted righteous (made acceptable to God, brought into right standing with Him). 20 But then Law came in, [only] to expand and increase the trespass [making it more apparent and exciting opposition]. But where sin increased and abounded, grace (God's unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded, 21 So that, [just] as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord.(AMPC)

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 08:02:50The verses under examination are most obviously addressing the effects of Adam' sin upon all of humanity, and the effects of Christ's righteousness upon all of humanity. I am not denying either, you are denying one. What Adam did affected all of humanity from birth from then on. What Christ did affected all of humanity from then on also. The former by and of the flesh, the latter by and of the spirit, that is to say, by faith.

How is it possible for the newborn baby to be affected by faith?  Faith, by definition, means mental assent plus trust.  The newborn can do neither.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 08:02:50Humanity was only allowed to continue by the grace of God in Christ Jesus our lord, that they might make the one decision alone that really matters. Salvation by rebirth in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The newborn who has been made righteous by the obedience of Jesus has no need to be reborn.  Why having just been born and being perfectly righteous, would he need to immediately be reborn? 

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 08:02:50If the plan of salvation had not already been put in place by the infinite forethought of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, humanity would have begun and ended in Adam and Eve.

You don't know that.  That is pure conjecture and not very good conjecture at that.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 08:02:50Life on earth only continued because the LAMB OF GOD was slain from the foundation of this world. So yes, as a matter of fact, all of humanity was immediately effected by both Adam's sin in disobedience to God, and our Saviors obedience to God. Being born by the grace of Christ's righteousness alone, with the sinful nature of Adam and Eve, to be overcome in Christ alone or not. Therefore must the saved be born again of the spirit, and not the flesh.

Why in all that is pure and holy would God form a spirit dead in trespasses and sins in a newborn?  Answer --  He wouldn't and didn't.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 08:02:50Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

That is needed for the one who has sinned and who has become dead in those trespasses and sins.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 08:02:50Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

So you think the works of the newborn are  "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:..."

Are you really serious here? 

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 08:28:09How is it possible for the newborn baby to be affected by faith?  Faith, by definition, means mental assent plus trust.  The newborn can do neither.

The newborn who has been made righteous by the obedience of Jesus has no need to be reborn.  Why having just been born and being perfectly righteous, would he need to immediately be reborn? 
You don't know that.  That is pure conjecture and not very good conjecture at that.
Why in all that is pure and holy would God form a spirit dead in trespasses and sins in a newborn?  Answer --  He wouldn't and didn't.


That is needed for the one who has sinned and who has become dead in those trespasses and sins.
So you think the works of the newborn are  "Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:..."

Are you really serious here? 

All moot. None are born of the spirit at birth. It is a matter of faith and personal choice later in life. My point was that humanity being able to continue at all, was only by the grace of God in Christ Jesus alone, from the foundation of the world. If not for this plan already being in place by the forethought of God, Adam and Eve would have died for their sin, ending humanity. That we continued at all, was and is only, by the grace of God. So that all of humanity was effected immediately after the fall, by the grace of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, and the plan of His salvation which had no doubt always been in place from eternity. As well as being effected immediately by the sin committed by our first parents.

All were infected by Adam's sin, with a sinful nature which needed to be overcome by faith and spiritual rebirth, and death. The grace of God in Christ Jesus alone, allowed for the continuation of humanity who had sinned against God, unto salvation or damnation. As all of humanity was condemned in Adam's sin, so all of humanity was justified in Christ's righteousness. Therefore alone, has the life of humanity been preserved, that each may confront the same issue as Adam and Eve. Making their own choice regarding the issue of obedience and worship of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, or not.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 08:55:31All moot. None are born of the spirit at birth. It is a matter of faith and personal choice later in life.

I think you are more than a little confused about what it even means to be born of the Spirit.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 12:06:36I think you are more than a little confused about what it even means to be born of the Spirit.

Question #1

What spirit are people born of in the first place?
Does not everyone have a soul and a spirit from birth
from the womb?

Quote from: chachynga on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 13:27:36Question #1

What spirit are people born of in the first place?
Does not everyone have a soul and a spirit from birth
from the womb?

Yes, of course. Mankind is born of the Spirit from birth.  That is, God, who is Spirit, forms the spirit of man in him.  And that obviously  occurs at birth (before at conception if you wish). That spirit is not dead.  It becomes dead once the person sins.  It is then and later that it is dead in trespasses and sins.  It needs to be born again, to be reborn.

Paul tells us in Ephesians that occurs "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- " (Eph 2:5).  He continues to say that happens "by grace through faith" (Eph 2:8).

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 14:45:21Yes, of course. Mankind is born of the Spirit from birth.  That is, God, who is Spirit, forms the spirit of man in him.  And that obviously  occurs at birth (before at conception if you wish). That spirit is not dead.  It becomes dead once the person sins.  It is then and later that it is dead in trespasses and sins.  It needs to be born again, to be reborn.

Paul tells us in Ephesians that occurs "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- " (Eph 2:5).  He continues to say that happens "by grace through faith" (Eph 2:8).

Question # 2

What is "by grace through faith"?

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Jan 14, 2024 - 12:06:36I think you are more than a little confused about what it even means to be born of the Spirit.

You are of course free to think as you wish. I do not however, care what you think. I care about what God's word plainly teaches. If you can show me from this source, that I am confused, then I will care.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYlLaV9FzfQ

Another good video by Answers in Genesis Canada.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jan 21, 2024 - 11:49:35https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYlLaV9FzfQ

Another good video by Answers in Genesis Canada.

That video did not refute evolution.  It did only suggested that life was initiated by God. I believe that is true.  Evolution does not "officially" deal with the question of how life began, even though some, perhaps many, evolutionists reject the existence of God.  I believe that God is fully capable of creating life with all the necessary information contained therein to produce evolution.  The video did not refute that.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Jan 22, 2024 - 05:20:20That video did not refute evolution.  It did only suggested that life was initiated by God. I believe that is true.  Evolution does not "officially" deal with the question of how life began, even though some, perhaps many, evolutionists reject the existence of God.  I believe that God is fully capable of creating life with all the necessary information contained therein to produce evolution.  The video did not refute that.

The videos I post are not just for, or addressing you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ev3vWfmSDo

The above video, I think would be more specific to your views 4WD.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Jan 26, 2024 - 23:14:43https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ev3vWfmSDo

The above video, I think would be more specific to your views 4WD.

No Amo, that does not come even close to my views. I don't have any problem at all with anyone who chooses to hold to the Young Earth Creationist (YEC) view of the Genesis account of creation.  My favorite theologian takes that view.  What I truly detest are those who try to convince the rest of us that modern day science supports the YEC view. Science does not in any sense support the view that the universe is only about 10,000 years or so old or anything that accompanies such a view.  And to try to inject such teaching in science classes in our school systems is even more detestable. The whole purpose of organizations such as answersingenesis flies in the face of good science.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Jan 26, 2024 - 23:10:13The videos I post are not just for, or addressing you.

Oh I never thought they were.  And my responses to those videos are not just for or addressing you. 

I ran across this and am posting for any of you who
can understand.

It is well over my head but the title

"The Young Earth" kinda fits here... if not in another thread somewhere here.

https://www.icr.org/article/young-earth/

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 27, 2024 - 04:03:57No Amo, that does not come even close to my views. I don't have any problem at all with anyone who chooses to hold to the Young Earth Creationist (YEC) view of the Genesis account of creation.  My favorite theologian takes that view.  What I truly detest are those who try to convince the rest of us that modern day science supports the YEC view. Science does not in any sense support the view that the universe is only about 10,000 years or so old or anything that accompanies such a view.  And to try to inject such teaching in science classes in our school systems is even more detestable. The whole purpose of organizations such as answersingenesis flies in the face of good science.

Yea, we have been through this before. Good science is in the eye of the beholder. Evolutionary deep time scenarios seem to be good science to you, because your faith is in such scientific "claims". YEC scenarios seem to be good science to me, because my faith is in the plain testimony of scripture.