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QuoteAmo said: Yes, this is quite a mystery. Just like the mystery of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Not explainable at present. Are you suggesting that Jesus who is God, ceased to exist as such when in the womb of Mary, and therefore could not have spoken to Joseph? As if you, or I, or anyone could know and or comprehend such things of or about God, and the particulars of things presently far beyond us? I suppose you do, which is why your church has had the audacity in the past to force her views upon others concerning such things, such as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

It disqualifies an Archangel as being Christ. Scripture is clear that there is more than one Archangel, Jewish & Christian Sacred Tradition is clear that there's more than one Archangel AND Ellen White was most demanding and explicit there were more Archangels than Lucifer and Michael.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sat Jan 27, 2024 - 09:51:23It disqualifies an Archangel as being Christ. Scripture is clear that there is more than one Archangel, Jewish & Christian Sacred Tradition is clear that there's more than one Archangel AND Ellen White was most demanding and explicit there were more Archangels than Lucifer and Michael.

No it does not. Nor would or should I take your word as the final word or any authoritative word at all. Considering how intentionally inaccurate you so very often are about scripture and or the words of others.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is [g]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name [h]Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."(NKJV)

20 But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is [q]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins.(ASV)

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the Child who has been [k]conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a Son, and you shall name Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation), for He will [l]save His people from their sins." (AMP)

20 But after he had considered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because what has been conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."(CSB)

20 But while he was thinking about this, an angel of Adonai appeared to him in a dream and said, "Yosef, son of David, do not be afraid to take Miryam home with you as your wife; for what has been conceived in her is from the Ruach HaKodesh. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Yeshua, [which means 'Adonai saves,'] because he will save his people from their sins."(CJB)

20 but while he pondered on these things, behold, an angel of [the] Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, fear not to take to [thee] Mary, thy wife, for that which is begotten in her is of [the] Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for *he* shall save his people from their sins.
(DARBY)

20 He thought about what he should do. Then an angel came from the Lord God to see him. The angel came to Joseph while he was dreaming. The angel said, 'Joseph, you who are from the family of King David, take Mary home as your wife. Do not be afraid to do that. The baby that is growing inside her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 Mary's baby will be a boy. He will save his people from their sins.[e] Because of that, you must give him the name "Jesus".'(EASY)

20 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." (ESV)

20 But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a Son; and you shall name Him Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
(NASB)

20 After he had decided to follow this course of action, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to receive Mary into your home as your wife. For this child has been conceived in her womb through the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you shall name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."(NCB)

Amo, here:

Ellen White, Seventh Day Adventist Signs of the Times Sept 14 1882
Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God's purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence.

In case you missed it THAT is Ellen gloating that Lucifer WAS AN ARCHANGEL. That's MORE THAN ONE.

Ellen White {Mar 329.3}
Listen to their voices as they sing loud hosannas and as they wave the palm branches of victory. Rich music fills heaven as their voices sing forth these words: "Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain and rose again forevermore. Salvation unto our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." And the angelic host, angels and archangels, covering cherub and glorious seraph, echo back the refrain of that joyous, triumphant song saying, "Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever" (Rev. 7:12).

That's Ellen gloating that there are archangels in addition to Lucifer and Michael.

Ellen White, Sabbath Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven


I don't need to quote affirmations from Christian or Jewish sources to demonstrate both of those Faith Traditions believe there were more than one archangel.

The fact is God the Son was NEVER an archangel - this is only present in the fleshy mind Ellen White and others like her.

Quote from: RB on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 04:41:15That's false and cannot be proven with the word of God. Michael is an angel NOT the Son of God. Angels are created ministering spirits ~created to be ministers for the elect of God. Hebrews 1:14.  Jesus is God's only begotten Son, begotten IN TIME around two thousand years ago according to the testimony of God. The only record that we should believe~per Luke 1:26-38. Believing as your religion teaches destroys many precious truths.

Not only was Jesus conceived in TIME, but he also is NOT the second person of the Godhead, but in his deity, as God, he is The I AM THAT I AM, the Evelasting Father of all things, a  scripture you quoted above but only applied his Sonship to it, which in his humanity HE WAS. See the WHOLE of Isaiah 9:6

The Jehovah Witnesses will agree with you on this perversion of God's truth, but God will give you no support to teach such a doctrine.

In the beginning, was God.... PERIOD. To add to that truth, one immediately destroys the  Divinity of the Son of God.  The only problem debating you folks is that I cannot get you folks into a serious debate, once you see you have no answers, which geneally is very quickly you head for the hills for cover. Well would you not think that IF your doctrine was so, would not Isaiah 9:6 would have been a GREAT place to tell us that he is ALSO called Michael?  To add Michael to his name would make him a CREATED BEING whom Michael the archangel was. Jude 9~it was NOT Jesus contending for the body of Moses since he was NOT yet conceived and born, but it was Michael who was CREATED that contended with the Devil over the body of Moses. Jesus in his Divinity would NOT need to contend with such a pitiful spirit as Satan for one little word from the ALMIGHTY God would forever destroy Satan! BLASPHEMY to think otherwise!

Well, lets look and see what we find as the scriptures as it gives Him many titles, 'Captain of the Lords Host', 'Prince of the Host', and of course 'Wonderful Counselor', 'The mighty God', 'The everlasting Father', 'Prince of Peace'. We find that this 'Prince' is the one in Daniel 10:13 and Daniel 12:1 is also in many other places..

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:25 (KJV)

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:14-15 (KJV)

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)

 And here is more..'Pre-Incarnate Appearances of Christ

The Old Testament Scriptures refer to a being who, on several occasions, either appeared or spoke to human beings. Various titles were applied to this being, such as "the angel of the Lord," "the angel of God," or "the captain of the host of the Lord." The Old Testament references reveal that this being was divine, not an angel. The word translated "angel" in the Bible literally means messenger and sometimes refers to beings other than angels.

When, at a specific point in time, He was incarnated in human flesh, He added a complete human nature to His pre-existent, eternal, divine nature.

An example of an appearance by this being is recorded in Exodus 3–4. The person who appeared to Moses in the burning bush is called "the angel of the Lord" (3:2); however, He is identified as "the Lord" and "God" (3:4) and "I am" (3:14). He claimed to be "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (3:6). Moses hid his face from this being, "for he was afraid to look upon God" (3:6). These facts signify that a divine being appeared to Moses. Because the Scriptures clearly teach that no human being has ever seen God the Father (Jn. 1:18; 6:46), it must be concluded that this divine being was not the Father. The Bible also indicates that Christ is the being who reveals God to the world (Jn. 1:18; 14:8–9; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3). It seems evident, then, that Christ was the being who made these appearances to Moses and others in Old Testament times, and these appearances testify to His pre-existence before His incarnation in human flesh.

Christ's existence did not begin when He was conceived in Mary's womb and born into the world several months later. As an eternal divine being, He had always existed without beginning and end throughout eternity past and Old Testament history. When, at a specific point in time, He was incarnated in human flesh, He added a complete human nature to His pre-existent, eternal, divine nature. The Word, who existed with God the Father before the beginning of creation, became flesh and dwelt among people on the earth for more than thirty years (Jn. 1:1–3, 14).'... and more from my friend GC in one of the forums.

The word "archangel" is the word which throws people off most. The fact that "angel" is usually considered a created being is the tricky part. We forget the real meaning of "angel." The word means "messenger of God." Here is the full definition of "angel" from the Greek word, according to my Strong's Concordance:

angelos, n. angel, messenger; this can refer to a human messenger, such as John the Baptist, or messengers sent by John the Baptist or Jesus, or to the supernatural class of being that serves God: the angel:-- angel [96], angels [80], messenger [4], messengers [3], angel's [2]

Now I would ask two questions: 1) Was Jesus a human? and 2) Was Jesus a messenger, sent by God? My answers to both of these are in the affirmative. So, by this definition, one could even have used the term "angel" for Jesus. However, there is nothing in the definition of "angel" which implies that it must be a created being! (Here is where our traditional concepts can throw us off the track of truth.)

Now, apart from that little side-trip, I will not hereafter attempt to call Jesus an angel, for it is to be noted that the Bible does not try to confuse us by doing this. The Bible writers were careful to use the term for beings other than God Himself, unlike the term "son of man" which can be applied to Jesus, to Ezekiel, or to any number of men.

However, the term "archangel" is not the same Greek word as "angel." As previously noted, it is used but twice. The definition in the concordance is not helpful, saying that the word means "archangel" with no additional information. From that, I might safely conclude that the word is not fully understood. When I find that word in the dictionary, it says archangel means "an angel of the highest order," and that the prefix "arch-" means "chief" or "principal," which to me still leave questions.

It is said that "archangel" means "over all the angels." If you accept this, then the being that is "over" the angels may or may not be an angel himself--simply their superior.

Now, laying the definitions themselves aside, let's look at the identity of Michael. On this point, we can be very clear. There can be no mistake as to who Michael is.

Michael is mentioned in Daniel 10:13. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: bu, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes [marginal note: Or, the first], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

In Daniel 12:1, Michael is further identified: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

So, Michael is "the great prince" who stands "for the children of thy people." Who is this prince? Just three chapters earlier, we read this: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..."

So, here we have a clear reference to "THE Prince." We know who the Messiah is--that is Jesus. We also know that "prince" means the son of a king. I don't see how the angels (the created messengers of heaven) would be called by this term, do you? So to me, it is quite clear.

Now, if you accept that "archangel" means "over the angels," how many would fit this description? Certainly, Jesus would fit. But we also have God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Depending now on whether or not an angel could also fill this position, perhaps you would have Gabriel (or even other commanding angels). So depending on the definitions (is God "one" or "three"; does Gabriel count), each one may interpret the number of archangels differently.

In conclusion:

1. Messiah is "the Prince."
2. Archangel means "over the angels" or "commander of the angels."
3. Jesus is the Messiah.
4. Jesus, as God, is over the angels (archangel).
5. Jesus pre-existed His earthly existence (John 1:1-14).
6. Jesus did not create Himself (this would be impossible)!
7. Jesus created everything; He is the Creator (Col. 1:14-16).'

Lets look at the relevant text on this in Daniel...

Daniel 10:13-20
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Now Daniel was told by the angel Gabriel that here the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me. Now I have to go back and fight the guardian angel of Persia. After that the guardian angel of Greece will appear. There is no one to help me except Michael, Israel's guardian angel. He is responsible for helping and defending me.

Later Daniel refers to him as 'the great prince' Daniel 12:1 and as we see in Jude he is called 'the archangel' when he disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. It is the voice of the archangel, this title given to Michael, who is associated with the raising of the dead at the 2nd coming. "There will be the shout of command, the archangel's voice, the sound of God's trumpet, and the Lord himself will come down from heaven. Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first.
1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The connection between the resurrection and Michael is reinforced in Daniel when, 'at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:' 'many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt'. Daniel 12:1,2

But scripture tells us that it is Christ's voice that will raise the dead. 'The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life' the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves.

John 5:25-29
"25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Again we see the connection as to who is Michael the Archangel...

In Revelation 12, Michael is shown as the leader of the angels in the fight against Satan, and then later in Revelation 19, it says it is Jesus who leads the charge as 'The armies of heaven followed him.'

The work described in Revelation 12:7-9 is the work of Christ himself, and look at this...

Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

and compare who fights with the dragon...

Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

We have many places in the Old Testament you can find where God is referred to as an angel. It was "the angel of the LORD" that helped Hagar in the desert, but yet she would say, "Have I really seen God and lived to tell about it?" Genesis 16:7,13

It was "the LORD's angel" who came to Gideon, but during the conversation it was "the LORD" who answered Gideon, and Gideon asked, "Give me some proof that you are really the LORD." Judges 6:11,16,17.

Finally, who led the Israelites through the desert? "My angel will go ahead of you and take you into the land of the Amorites" (Exodus 23:23) But yet Paul says that the One who led the Israelites through the desert was none other than Jesus! "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:4)

Now Scripture is clear, that there is only one God, who is, who was, and who is to come as we see in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Now, God does not allow worship to anyone but Him.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Twice in Revelation, John was forbidden to fall at the feet of the angel (Revelation 19:10)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy..

and (Revelation 22: 8-9)
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

However, when Joshua met the angelic general (Joshua 5:3-15), he was not forbidden from performing this act of worship. Instead, just like the encounter of Moses with God at the burning bush, Joshua was told to take off his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. This leader of the angels was God.

Jesus Christ is the preeminent Angel of the Lord, the Chief Messenger of God, and holds many other titles. But Jesus is not a created Angel, but the eternal "angel of his presence," who is himself our God...

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sat Jan 27, 2024 - 19:11:57Amo, here:

Ellen White, Seventh Day Adventist Signs of the Times Sept 14 1882
Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God's purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence.

In case you missed it THAT is Ellen gloating that Lucifer WAS AN ARCHANGEL. That's MORE THAN ONE.

Ellen White {Mar 329.3}
Listen to their voices as they sing loud hosannas and as they wave the palm branches of victory. Rich music fills heaven as their voices sing forth these words: "Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain and rose again forevermore. Salvation unto our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." And the angelic host, angels and archangels, covering cherub and glorious seraph, echo back the refrain of that joyous, triumphant song saying, "Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever" (Rev. 7:12).

That's Ellen gloating that there are archangels in addition to Lucifer and Michael.

Ellen White, Sabbath Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven


I don't need to quote affirmations from Christian or Jewish sources to demonstrate both of those Faith Traditions believe there were more than one archangel.

The fact is God the Son was NEVER an archangel - this is only present in the fleshy mind Ellen White and others like her.

Moot points. No different than the difference between an angel of the Lord, and the angel of the Lord. An archangel is a leading angel. The archangel is the leading angel. The one who alone, is given attributes which belong to God alone. As your quote from EGW points out, next to Christ, the highest angel was Lucifer. That is to say, after Christ, the second highest angel was Lucifer. This because Christ was not just an angel, but God. Now Christ is not just a man either, but God. The Son of man, and the Son of God.

He is the visible head of both the angels and humanity. Both of whom have rebelled against God. The angels chose between our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and Lucifer as their leader in heaven, before they were cast down to this earth. Now humanity is choosing between Christ and Satan here on earth. When all have chosen according to God's word and timing, the end will come. Judgment will be executed. The wicked will perish, and the saved will have submitted to Christ our Lord. Our Lord will then submit to the heavenly Father, and the proper order of all creation shall be restored.

The Resurrection of the Dead

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Amo, 1st Thessalonians 4's use of archangel is in the context of Christ's return being announced BY AN ARCHANGEL. This is what the original hearers / readers would have understood.

Trying to stitch verses together to protect the idea that Christ is Michael the archangel was not unlike how the founders of the SDA Church concluded that God [ SDA flesh Father] had a digestive tract and all the other parts a perfect human "man" would have.

The Book of Daniel tells us that Michael was ONE OF other Chief Princes - this alone excludes Michael from being "God".

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun Jan 28, 2024 - 10:16:46Amo, 1st Thessalonians 4's use of archangel is in the context of Christ's return being announced BY AN ARCHANGEL. This is what the original hearers / readers would have understood.

Trying to stitch verses together to protect the idea that Christ is Michael the archangel was not unlike how the founders of the SDA Church concluded that God [ SDA flesh Father] had a digestive tract and all the other parts a perfect human "man" would have.

The Book of Daniel tells us that Michael was ONE OF other Chief Princes - this alone excludes Michael from being "God".

Correct. One of

Chapter 7
The Holy Angels

1 And these are the names of the holy angels who watch mankind.

2 Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus.

3 Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men.
4 Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the
luminaries.

5 Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of
mankind and over chaos.

6 Saraqael, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the
spirit.

7 Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the
Cherubim.

8 Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

I would provide the link but no one will bother with it anyway.

The fallen angels are not mentioned here.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun Jan 28, 2024 - 10:16:46Amo, 1st Thessalonians 4's use of archangel is in the context of Christ's return being announced BY AN ARCHANGEL. This is what the original hearers / readers would have understood.

Trying to stitch verses together to protect the idea that Christ is Michael the archangel was not unlike how the founders of the SDA Church concluded that God [ SDA flesh Father] had a digestive tract and all the other parts a perfect human "man" would have.

The Book of Daniel tells us that Michael was ONE OF other Chief Princes - this alone excludes Michael from being "God".

That's a big fat negative. You just make things up as you go along.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:(KJV)

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.(NIV)

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;(KJ21)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;(ASV)

16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.(AMP)

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.(AMPC)

15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.(DRA)

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
(NASB)

16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.(NRSVCE)

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jhn 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Jhn 6:39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is by the command of the voice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that the dead will be brought forth at His second coming. He is the archangel, that is the leader of the angels, they are His. He created them.

Mrk 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Amo, you keep regurgitating texts which don't help your position. Additionally you appear to be so "programmed" by Ellen White that you attribute actual statements in the Bible as me making "things up as I go along".

Let me help you out a bit here.

QuoteI said: The Book of Daniel tells us that Michael was ONE OF other Chief Princes - this alone excludes Michael from being "God".

Amo, you said in response to that:

QuoteAmo said: That's a big fat negative. You just make things up as you go along.

The Book of Daniel

QuoteDaniel 10, 12 - 14: Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Michael is ONE OF OTHER Chief Princes Amo - as SDA's like to put it:

SDA's say God is 3 Beings and Michael / Christ is one of those 3 Beings.

Sacred Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition say Michael is a Chief Prince among other Chief Princes. Michael is a "Being" among other like Beings that are classified as angelic Chief Princes.

If you want to claim I'm making stuff up as I go along you may want to change your tactic to something else that doesn't include claiming the Bible doesn't identify Michael the archangel as 1 Chief prince among other Chief princes.

Quote from: piecrust on Sat Jun 15, 2019 - 19:14:51The Word is God.

Michael is an angel, a created being.  How can Michael be God?  Even his name, who is like God? exhibits that.

Don't belittle the Word.

Every part of the Godhead has a role, and Christ is given this and we see it when He throws out the devil and his minions from heaven or rebukes Satan and takes Moses up, the Word reveals it.

Quote from: Hobie on Sat Mar 23, 2024 - 09:12:17Every part of the Godhead has a role, and Christ is given this and we see it when He throws out the devil and his minions from heaven or rebukes Satan and takes Moses up, the Word reveals it.

That there is the problem, there are NO PARTS in God, God does not consist of parts. God is ONE SIMPLE SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE. Hobbie, I hope you and Amo can accept the below as a factual representation of the kinds of things SDA's promulgated while Ellen White was alive.

John 4, 24 - READ IT & Compare the following statements.

Mrs. White, The Signs of the Times, April 25, 1878:
The words and works of Christ testified to a divine power which accomplishes miraculous results, of a future, eternal life exalted above the finite life, of God as a Father to the children of men, watchful of their true interests, and guarding them. He taught that God was a rewarder of the righteous, and a punisher of the transgressor. He was not an intangible spirit, but a living ruler of the universe,. This gracious Father was constantly working for the good of man, and mindful of all that concerns him. The very hairs of his head are numbered.

As you and Amo know, Ellen White didn't create any Doctrines for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, she confirmed the Doctrines others made up - specifically the Doctrines the Anti-Trinitarian founders gloated over. Because the Anti-Trinitarians despised the Trinity Doctrine and rejected it - they militantly taught that God was the Father Alone and that Father God was TANGIBILE FLESH, A LITERAL PERSON, A HOMINID WITH ALL THE MEMBERS AND PARTS OF A PERFECT MAN.

You just saw where & how Ellen White endorsed that SDA Doctrine.
 

Sabbath Herald, November 25, 1880:
Our reviewer then goes on at some length to show that according to our view the death of Christ was but a human sacrifice, and finally concludes, "Hence the Doctor's theory claims that the essence of God, the Supreme Being, who created and upholds all things from the beginning, was made into corruptible flesh, was killed by men," etc. The above statement is entirely correct, with a slight addition; the insertion of the words, " does not " just before the word " claim " will make the statement correct. As it stands, it is as wide a departure from the truth as it can be. The only grounds upon which our reviewer could be justified in making such a statement would be the supposition on his part that we believe in the doctrine of the trinity ; but he very well knows, from positions taken and arguments used in previous articles, that we do not agree with him on this subject any better than on that of the nature of the soul. We believe in but one Deity, God, who is a unity, not a compound 'being. We think the Bible as well as common sense sustains this view. Says Eld. W., "'His trinitarianism ' seems to shackle him much." We repel the charge of " trinitarianism " without the slightest hesitation. We do not believe in a triune God, as before remarked. And we will not, as did our reviewer in a former article, leave the reader in doubt as to our position on this point.

One can see what's going on here - SDA's believe that Michael (AKA Christ) is "PART OF THE GODHEAD", i.e. that God is a unity of separate Beings with at least one of the Beings (Michael) being arbitrary.

It was argued and taught that when Michael Christ came to earth He adopted sinful flesh and thus urged or yearned to commit sin - Michael didn't commit sin but the point stands that SDA's believe HE COULD HAVE SINNED and that this is VITAL for Christians to understand.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

This notion that God is made up of parts (like a body of flesh) and that Father god is a third, Michael Christ another 1/3rd and the Holy Spirit a 1/3rd initially comes from the anti-Trinitarian Pioneers of the SDA Church - who then appealed to the authority of Ellen White who would subsequently belch out prophetic visions and statements confirming the heretical beliefs. Below is an example of how it worked.

Charles S Longacre waxing eloquent on the teachings of Ellen White.
IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, the Father", would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth. The Deity of Christ', paper presented to the Bible Research Fellowship Angwin, California January 1947, page 13 & 14)

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun Apr 14, 2024 - 00:15:09That there is the problem, there are NO PARTS in God, God does not consist of parts. God is ONE SIMPLE SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE. Hobbie, I hope you and Amo can accept the below as a factual representation of the kinds of things SDA's promulgated while Ellen White was alive.

John 4, 24 - READ IT & Compare the following statements.

Mrs. White, The Signs of the Times, April 25, 1878:
The words and works of Christ testified to a divine power which accomplishes miraculous results, of a future, eternal life exalted above the finite life, of God as a Father to the children of men, watchful of their true interests, and guarding them. He taught that God was a rewarder of the righteous, and a punisher of the transgressor. He was not an intangible spirit, but a living ruler of the universe,. This gracious Father was constantly working for the good of man, and mindful of all that concerns him. The very hairs of his head are numbered.

As you and Amo know, Ellen White didn't create any Doctrines for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, she confirmed the Doctrines others made up - specifically the Doctrines the Anti-Trinitarian founders gloated over. Because the Anti-Trinitarians despised the Trinity Doctrine and rejected it - they militantly taught that God was the Father Alone and that Father God was TANGIBILE FLESH, A LITERAL PERSON, A HOMINID WITH ALL THE MEMBERS AND PARTS OF A PERFECT MAN.

You just saw where & how Ellen White endorsed that SDA Doctrine.
 

Sabbath Herald, November 25, 1880:
Our reviewer then goes on at some length to show that according to our view the death of Christ was but a human sacrifice, and finally concludes, "Hence the Doctor's theory claims that the essence of God, the Supreme Being, who created and upholds all things from the beginning, was made into corruptible flesh, was killed by men," etc. The above statement is entirely correct, with a slight addition; the insertion of the words, " does not " just before the word " claim " will make the statement correct. As it stands, it is as wide a departure from the truth as it can be. The only grounds upon which our reviewer could be justified in making such a statement would be the supposition on his part that we believe in the doctrine of the trinity ; but he very well knows, from positions taken and arguments used in previous articles, that we do not agree with him on this subject any better than on that of the nature of the soul. We believe in but one Deity, God, who is a unity, not a compound 'being. We think the Bible as well as common sense sustains this view. Says Eld. W., "'His trinitarianism ' seems to shackle him much." We repel the charge of " trinitarianism " without the slightest hesitation. We do not believe in a triune God, as before remarked. And we will not, as did our reviewer in a former article, leave the reader in doubt as to our position on this point.

One can see what's going on here - SDA's believe that Michael (AKA Christ) is "PART OF THE GODHEAD", i.e. that God is a unity of separate Beings with at least one of the Beings (Michael) being arbitrary.

It was argued and taught that when Michael Christ came to earth He adopted sinful flesh and thus urged or yearned to commit sin - Michael didn't commit sin but the point stands that SDA's believe HE COULD HAVE SINNED and that this is VITAL for Christians to understand.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

This notion that God is made up of parts (like a body of flesh) and that Father god is a third, Michael Christ another 1/3rd and the Holy Spirit a 1/3rd initially comes from the anti-Trinitarian Pioneers of the SDA Church - who then appealed to the authority of Ellen White who would subsequently belch out prophetic visions and statements confirming the heretical beliefs. Below is an example of how it worked.

Charles S Longacre waxing eloquent on the teachings of Ellen White.
IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, the Father", would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth. The Deity of Christ', paper presented to the Bible Research Fellowship Angwin, California January 1947, page 13 & 14)

More of the constant drivel, twisted testimony, confusion, and babel, of a son of Babylon. Truly a servant of lies and deception.

Ellen DID state that God the Father was NOT INTANGIBLE Spirit.

The Sabbath Herald Paper said the Spirit of Prophecy REBUKED The Trinity Doctrine.

If you wish to pretend these things never happened that is by all means your right. They happened nonetheless.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun Apr 14, 2024 - 00:15:09As you and Amo know, Ellen White didn't create any Doctrines for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, she confirmed the Doctrines others made up - specifically the Doctrines the Anti-Trinitarian founders gloated over.

Please, explain to all why the NON biblical man made doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity is valid.

The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Christian doctrine that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin "before, during and after" the birth of Christ. Wikipedia

Quote from: Rella on Sun Apr 14, 2024 - 09:52:51Please, explain to all why the NON biblical man made doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity is valid.

The perpetual virginity of Mary is a Christian doctrine that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin "before, during and after" the birth of Christ. Wikipedia

As the Pope of your own protestant sect you certainly understand you interpret the Bible for yourself - Catholics simply follow the Biblical stream of following God's established religious authority.

Speaking of Mary one of her Titles is "Destroyer of heresies" and this has been historically proven to be true. Anyone who can't affirm Mary was the Mother of God shows their cards - shows that that their Christology is way off. SDA's don't believe Jesus is God as evidenced by their admission that the Father could never cease to exist but the Son could have.

This doesn't answer the question posed about the notion of the perpetual virginity of Mary. Rella is not SDA and neither am I.

Ellen White is basically the Virgin Mary of the SDA Church.

Mary was the human mother of Jesus, and was a virgin when she was born.  Then like shown in Matthew 1:25, "did not have marital relations...until she gave birth to a son"

So where does the perpetuality of her virginity come in?

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Apr 15, 2024 - 00:06:34As the Pope of your own protestant sect you certainly understand you interpret the Bible for yourself

Ah, so you feel the protestant women can have the same equvilancy as your male popes..... that is very telling    - Catholics simply follow the Biblical stream of following God's established religious authority.

And where, pray tell, does your Biblical stream of following God's established religious authority come from?
Speaking of Mary one of her Titles is "Destroyer of heresies" and this has been historically proven to be true. Anyone who can't affirm Mary was the Mother of God shows their cards - shows that that their Christology is way off. Yes, yours certainly is.

@Cathlodux. I DO NOT, Nor do I know anyone who ever once has said such an assinine statement. OF COURSE MARY WAS THE MOTHER OF CHRIST JESUS. She just was not the end all that be all that Catholics adore. And she did not remain a virgin... No where can you provide a scripture that says so. The closest is when you alter the word till/until to mean the end.
THE 2ND PERSON IN THE GODHEAD IS GOD .

SDA's don't believe Jesus is God as evidenced by their admission that the Father could never cease to exist but the Son could have.

The mortality of Jesus did. But you will not understand that and I am not going to lay it out for you.

I do not understand this as the way you stated it could have multiple meanings.

Finally. I am not now, nor have I ever been SDA. I have studied them as I have Joseph Smith (a distant relative of mine.... )

And I AM A Woman. Born that way and will die that way.

Quote from: Jaime on Mon Apr 15, 2024 - 07:31:34This doesn't answer the question posed about the notion of the perpetual virginity of Mary. Rella is not SDA and neither am I.

Quote from: Jaime on Mon Apr 15, 2024 - 15:42:26So where does the perpetuality of her virginity come in?

Catholics and also Orthodox believe that she and Joseph never got together.

They believe if they did she would somehow be tainted instead of being a dutiful wife the way God intended husbands and wives.

They will argue that anyone who refers to ... oh, say James as Christs brother means James was half brother... his mom was Josephs first or another wife... or my very favorite is they claim he was a cousin. All Jesus's brothers were cousins....

I could go on and on but will spare you as the tales are interesting
but at the same time make quite a fanciful idea.

Quote from: Rella on Mon Apr 15, 2024 - 17:00:34Catholics and also Orthodox believe that she and Joseph never got together.

They believe if they did she would somehow be tainted instead of being a dutiful wife the way God intended husbands and wives.

They will argue that anyone who refers to ... oh, say James as Christs brother means James was half brother... his mom was Josephs first or another wife... or my very favorite is they claim he was a cousin. All Jesus's brothers were cousins....

I could go on and on but will spare you as the tales are interesting
but at the same time make quite a fanciful idea.

It's plain in scripture that Joseph didn't have relations with her until after Jesus was born.  It's bad dogma.

1st off, lets expose the SDA heresy of claiming Christ was Michael the archangel prior to the Incarnation.

SDA's (and their sycophant's) OPEN your Bibles to the Book of Jude.

Jude 1,8
"In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Everyone can see what Jude said above - Jude said Michael the archangel didn't dare to condemn the Devil and instead refers the rebuke to THE LORD - DO YOU SEE THIS HOBBIE & AMO???

Amo & Hobbie, it's time to listen to Jude in what he tells you.

Verse 5
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

So, Jude says IT WAS THE LORD who delivered his people out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 6, 4 says "THE LORD IS ONE".

Ephesians 4, -5 says there is "ONE LORD".

Hosea 13, 4 says "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD FROM THE LAND OF EGYPT".

Deut. 5, 15 says "THE LORD YOUR GOD BROUGHT YOU OUT FROM THERE"....

Jude says Michael the archangel MADE A DISTINCTION between Himself and "the Lord" who Jude describes as Jesus.

Read that again, Jude says Michael the archangel said he WASN'T THE LORD.

There is a reason Scholars and so many Bible translations actually say in Jude that it was JESUS who led the people out of Egypt.

I suggest that Hobbie and Amo invest in a Strong's and set the bong and Ellen Whtie down for a minute.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Tue Jan 30, 2024 - 08:50:27Amo, you keep regurgitating texts which don't help your position. Additionally you appear to be so "programmed" by Ellen White that you attribute actual statements in the Bible as me making "things up as I go along".

Let me help you out a bit here.

Amo, you said in response to that:

The Book of Daniel

Michael is ONE OF OTHER Chief Princes Amo - as SDA's like to put it:

SDA's say God is 3 Beings and Michael / Christ is one of those 3 Beings.

Sacred Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition say Michael is a Chief Prince among other Chief Princes. Michael is a "Being" among other like Beings that are classified as angelic Chief Princes.

If you want to claim I'm making stuff up as I go along you may want to change your tactic to something else that doesn't include claiming the Bible doesn't identify Michael the archangel as 1 Chief prince among other Chief princes.

You have been twisting the words of scripture and others for so long, you simply are not any longer capable of following any logical progression of thought concerning scriptural evidence of authentic biblical doctrine. The twisted faulty premise of the above argument is of course, that neither I nor any other I know on these boards deny that Michael is referred to as one of the Chief Princes in the book of Daniel. Like I said, you just make stuff up as you go along. Faulty reasoning built upon false accusations. Twisted is as twisted does. Babel on, son of Babylon.

Christ is also the Son of man. Does that mean He is just another man? Of course not.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

He is also the firstfruits of them that sleep or the resurrection. Does that mean he is just another mortal being who needed a resurrection? Of course not.

Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1Pe 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1Pe 5:4  And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


He is the chief corner stone, and the chief shepherd.

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

He is also the captain of the LORD'S host. Whom Joshua could rightly worship. Who made the very ground Joshua was standing upon holy, by His very presence. Just like the Angel of the Lord, who is the Lord.

Exo 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun Apr 14, 2024 - 00:15:09That there is the problem, there are NO PARTS in God, God does not consist of parts. God is ONE SIMPLE SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE. Hobbie, I hope you and Amo can accept the below as a factual representation of the kinds of things SDA's promulgated while Ellen White was alive.

John 4, 24 - READ IT & Compare the following statements.

Mrs. White, The Signs of the Times, April 25, 1878:
The words and works of Christ testified to a divine power which accomplishes miraculous results, of a future, eternal life exalted above the finite life, of God as a Father to the children of men, watchful of their true interests, and guarding them. He taught that God was a rewarder of the righteous, and a punisher of the transgressor. He was not an intangible spirit, but a living ruler of the universe,. This gracious Father was constantly working for the good of man, and mindful of all that concerns him. The very hairs of his head are numbered.

As you and Amo know, Ellen White didn't create any Doctrines for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, she confirmed the Doctrines others made up - specifically the Doctrines the Anti-Trinitarian founders gloated over. Because the Anti-Trinitarians despised the Trinity Doctrine and rejected it - they militantly taught that God was the Father Alone and that Father God was TANGIBILE FLESH, A LITERAL PERSON, A HOMINID WITH ALL THE MEMBERS AND PARTS OF A PERFECT MAN.

You just saw where & how Ellen White endorsed that SDA Doctrine.
 

Sabbath Herald, November 25, 1880:
Our reviewer then goes on at some length to show that according to our view the death of Christ was but a human sacrifice, and finally concludes, "Hence the Doctor's theory claims that the essence of God, the Supreme Being, who created and upholds all things from the beginning, was made into corruptible flesh, was killed by men," etc. The above statement is entirely correct, with a slight addition; the insertion of the words, " does not " just before the word " claim " will make the statement correct. As it stands, it is as wide a departure from the truth as it can be. The only grounds upon which our reviewer could be justified in making such a statement would be the supposition on his part that we believe in the doctrine of the trinity ; but he very well knows, from positions taken and arguments used in previous articles, that we do not agree with him on this subject any better than on that of the nature of the soul. We believe in but one Deity, God, who is a unity, not a compound 'being. We think the Bible as well as common sense sustains this view. Says Eld. W., "'His trinitarianism ' seems to shackle him much." We repel the charge of " trinitarianism " without the slightest hesitation. We do not believe in a triune God, as before remarked. And we will not, as did our reviewer in a former article, leave the reader in doubt as to our position on this point.

One can see what's going on here - SDA's believe that Michael (AKA Christ) is "PART OF THE GODHEAD", i.e. that God is a unity of separate Beings with at least one of the Beings (Michael) being arbitrary.

It was argued and taught that when Michael Christ came to earth He adopted sinful flesh and thus urged or yearned to commit sin - Michael didn't commit sin but the point stands that SDA's believe HE COULD HAVE SINNED and that this is VITAL for Christians to understand.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian TO KNOW that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

This notion that God is made up of parts (like a body of flesh) and that Father god is a third, Michael Christ another 1/3rd and the Holy Spirit a 1/3rd initially comes from the anti-Trinitarian Pioneers of the SDA Church - who then appealed to the authority of Ellen White who would subsequently belch out prophetic visions and statements confirming the heretical beliefs. Below is an example of how it worked.

Charles S Longacre waxing eloquent on the teachings of Ellen White.
IF it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations were all a farce AND mere mockery. IF it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures AND the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

IF Christ "risked all," EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and IF overcome by sin, He would have gone into Joseph's tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered "eternal loss," the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY AND His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, "God, the Father", would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth. The Deity of Christ', paper presented to the Bible Research Fellowship Angwin, California January 1947, page 13 & 14)

More twisted gobbledygook from a son of Babylon. Who dares and presumes to define the substance of God, for the rest of us in one six word sentence. 

QuoteGod is ONE SIMPLE SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE.

A truly blasphemous statement.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun Apr 14, 2024 - 09:36:52Ellen DID state that God the Father was NOT INTANGIBLE Spirit.

The Sabbath Herald Paper said the Spirit of Prophecy REBUKED The Trinity Doctrine.

If you wish to pretend these things never happened that is by all means your right. They happened nonetheless.

Yes. And any one of us could take any three or few words of any other, separate them from all the rest of their testimony, and make them out to mean whatever we wished as well. Some of us actually do consider the consequences of bearing false witness against our neighbors though.

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Exo 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Pro 19:5  A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.

Pro 19:9  A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Arguing and debating truth is one thing. Bearing false witness by twisting and lying about the words of others, is another thing altogether.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon Apr 15, 2024 - 11:12:54Ellen White is basically the Virgin Mary of the SDA Church.

Mary was the human mother of Jesus, and was a virgin when she was born.  Then like shown in Matthew 1:25, "did not have marital relations...until she gave birth to a son"

A truly ignorant statement.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Apr 15, 2024 - 23:32:261st off, lets expose the SDA heresy of claiming Christ was Michael the archangel prior to the Incarnation.

SDA's (and their sycophant's) OPEN your Bibles to the Book of Jude.

Jude 1,8
"In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Everyone can see what Jude said above - Jude said Michael the archangel didn't dare to condemn the Devil and instead refers the rebuke to THE LORD - DO YOU SEE THIS HOBBIE & AMO???

Amo & Hobbie, it's time to listen to Jude in what he tells you.

Verse 5
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

So, Jude says IT WAS THE LORD who delivered his people out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 6, 4 says "THE LORD IS ONE".

Ephesians 4, -5 says there is "ONE LORD".

Hosea 13, 4 says "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD FROM THE LAND OF EGYPT".

Deut. 5, 15 says "THE LORD YOUR GOD BROUGHT YOU OUT FROM THERE"....

Jude says Michael the archangel MADE A DISTINCTION between Himself and "the Lord" who Jude describes as Jesus.

Read that again, Jude says Michael the archangel said he WASN'T THE LORD.

There is a reason Scholars and so many Bible translations actually say in Jude that it was JESUS who led the people out of Egypt.

I suggest that Hobbie and Amo invest in a Strong's and set the bong and Ellen Whtie down for a minute.

The following is a repost of post number 4 of this thread. SDA's did not create the idea or belief that Michael the Archangel is one of the many titles of Christ our Lord found in scripture. So none who believe such are SDA sycophants. This is just more drivel from a son of Babylon.

http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.com/2009/11/scholars-quotes-concerning-jesus-as.html

Scholars' Quotes Concerning Jesus as Michael the Archangel

From early Christian writings until now there have been many who understood Michael to be the archangel who became Jesus on earth. (For much more on the subject, see the ARCHANGEL category or use the search box above.)

Early Christian scholar Origen writes:

"There are certain creatures, rational and divine, which are called powers [spirit creatures, probably angels]; and of these Christ was the highest and best and is called not only the wisdom of God but also His power." - ANF 10:321-322.


Back in the early 1800's, Bible scholar Joseph Benson stated that the description of Michael as found in the Bible "manifestly points out the Messiah."　


Nineteenth-century Lutheran E. W. Hengstenberg agreed that "Michael is no other than Christ."
　

Similarly, theologian J. P. Lange, when commenting on Revelation 12:7, wrote: "We take it that Michael . . . is, from the outset, Christ in warlike array against Satan."


Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke)

Jude :9

"Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host. Nor is the word devil, as applied to the great enemy of mankind, ever found in the plural; there can be but one monarch of all fallen spirits. Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders; the devil, great dragon, or Satan, is head of all the diabolic orders. When these two hosts are opposed to each other they are said to act under these two chiefs, as leaders; hence in Revelation 12:7, it is said: MICHAEL and his angels fought against the DRAGON and his angels.　 The word Michael　 lakym, seems to be compounded of ym mi, who, k ke, like, and la El, God; he who is like God; hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."

The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: Revelation

"12:7 And there was war in heaven: 14 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

"(14) Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod...."

John Gill, A Body of Doctrinal Divinity, Book 7 Chapter 5:

"1b2. Another prophecy in Daniel 12:1-3 respects the second and personal coming of Christ; for he is meant by Michael, who is "as God", as his name signifies, equal to him; the 'great prince,' the prince of the kings of the earth, and the head of all principalities and powers."

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Daniel 12:1

"Ver. 1.

And at that time shall Michael stand up,.... The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ;"

And even trinitarian Bible scholar W. E. Vine ("recognized as one of the world's foremost [Bible] Greek scholars") tells us that this "voice of the archangel" (1 Thess. 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ"! - p. 64, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia:

"The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, p. 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.

Protestant Reformer John Calvin said regarding "Michael" in its occurrence at Daniel 12:1:

"I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

John Wesley:

Chapter XII

A promise of deliverance, and of a joyful resurrection, ver. 1 - 4. A conference concerning the time of these events, ver. 5 - 7. An answer to Daniel's enquiry, ver. 8 - 13. For the children - The meaning seems to be, as after the death of Antiochus the Jews had some deliverance, so there will be yet a greater deliverance to the people of God, when Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation. A time of trouble - A the siege of Jerusalem, before the final judgment. The phrase at that time, probably includes all the time of Christ, from his first, to his last coming.

Wesley on Daniel 10:21: "Michael - Christ alone is the protector of his church, when all the princes of the earth desert or oppose it."

Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758):

Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. 2, Ch. 1, "Angels":

"II. When Lucifer rebelled and set up himself as a head in opposition to God and Christ, and drew away a great number of the angels after him, Christ, the Son of God, manifested himself as an opposite head, and appeared graciously to dissuade and restrain by his grace the elect angels from hearkening to Lucifer's temptation, so that they were upheld and preserved from eternal destruction at this time of great danger by the free and sovereign distinguishing grace of Christ. Herein Christ was the Saviour of the elect angels, for though he did not save them as he did elect men from the ruin they had already deserved, and were condemned to, and the miserable state they were already in, yet he saved them from eternal destruction they were in great danger of, and otherwise would have fallen into with the other angels. The elect angels joined with him, the glorious Michael, as their captain, while the other angels hearkened to Lucifer and joined with him, and then was that literally true that was fulfilled afterwards figuratively.

Rev. xii. 'When there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.' "

William L. Alexander, Doctor of Divinity, stated:

There seems good reason for regarding Michael as the Messiah. Such was the opinion of the best among the ancient Jews.... With this all the Bible representations of Michael agree. He appears as the Great Prince who standeth for Israel (Dan. xii. I), and he is called "the Prince of Israel" (Dan. x. 21)--William L. Alexander, ed., A Cyclopedia Of Biblical Literature, originally edited by John Kitto, 3d ed. (Edinburgh: A & C Black, 1886). vol. 3, p. 158.

"The two passages in the New Testament, in which Michael is mentioned, serve to confirm the result already arrived at. That the Michael referred to in Rev. xii. 7 is no other than the Logos, [the Word - the Son of God] has already been proved in my commentary upon that passage." —Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg, Christology of the Old Testament and a Commentary on the Messianic Predictions, 1836-9, Vol. IV, pp. 304-5 (in the T. & T. Clark publication; p. 269 in the Kregel publication).

Brown's Dictionary of the Bible

on the words 'Michael' and 'Angel' says, that both these words do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms that Christ is the Archangel.

Wood's Spiritual Dictionary

teaches nearly, if not exactly, the same on this subject that Brown's does. The former was a Calvinist, the latter a Methodist.

Butterworth, Cruden, and Taylor in their concordances, assert that Michael and Angel are both names of Christ.

Guyse in his Paraphrase on the New Testament, on Rev. xii. 7, acknowledges that many good expositors think that Christ is signified by Michael; and also gives it as his opinion.


Thomas Scott, in his notes on the Bible, says the Angel that appeared to Hagar when she fled from her mistress, one of the three Angels that appeared to Abraham in the plains of Mamre, the Angel that appeared to Moses in the bush, and the Angel that spoke to the Jews at Bochim, was Jesus Christ: and also asserts that Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ. See Gen. xvi. 9, 10. Chap. xviii throughout. Exod. iii. 2-7. Judg. ii. 1-5, Dan x. 13, 21. Chap. xii. 1, Rev. xii. 7.


Highly respected trinitarian Bible scholar, Dr. E. F. Scott, Emeritus Professor at the Union Theological Seminary, wrote:

"The author of Hebrews ... thinks of [Jesus] as an angel, whom God had exalted above all others, investing him with his own majesty and calling him by the name of Son." - p. 726, An Encyclopedia of Religion, 1945 ed.


And, again, the very trinitarian The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible tells us that at this time the Jewish expectation was that the Christ was

"a pre-existent, heavenly angelic being who, at the end of time, will appear at the side of God as judge of the world [see Acts 7:55-56]." - p. 364, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, 1962.


"Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." - p. 39, Today's Dictionary of the Bible (trinitarian), Bethany House Publ., 1982


"Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation." - p. 40, Smith's Bible Dictionary (trinitarian), Hendrickson Publ.


"ANGEL OF THE LORD, ... is represented in Scripture as a heavenly being sent by God to deal with men as his personal agent and spokesman [`word'] .... In the NT [which trinitarians agree explains and amplifies the OT] there is no possibility of the angel of the Lord being confused with God. .... mostly when appearing to men he is recognized as a divine being, even though in human form, and is [sometimes] addressed as God" - p. 38, New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale House (trinitarian), 1984 printing.


"The Angel of the LORD.... Traditional [from 2nd century A. D. (at least)] Christian interpretation has held that this `angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One [Jehovah] who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7 in the highly trinitarian The NIV Study Bible by Zondervan Publishing, 1985.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Mon Apr 15, 2024 - 23:32:261st off, lets expose the SDA heresy of claiming Christ was Michael the archangel prior to the Incarnation.

SDA's (and their sycophant's) OPEN your Bibles to the Book of Jude.

Jude 1,8
"In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Everyone can see what Jude said above - Jude said Michael the archangel didn't dare to condemn the Devil and instead refers the rebuke to THE LORD - DO YOU SEE THIS HOBBIE & AMO???

Amo & Hobbie, it's time to listen to Jude in what he tells you.

Verse 5
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

So, Jude says IT WAS THE LORD who delivered his people out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 6, 4 says "THE LORD IS ONE".

Ephesians 4, -5 says there is "ONE LORD".

Hosea 13, 4 says "I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD FROM THE LAND OF EGYPT".

Deut. 5, 15 says "THE LORD YOUR GOD BROUGHT YOU OUT FROM THERE"....

Jude says Michael the archangel MADE A DISTINCTION between Himself and "the Lord" who Jude describes as Jesus.

Read that again, Jude says Michael the archangel said he WASN'T THE LORD.

There is a reason Scholars and so many Bible translations actually say in Jude that it was JESUS who led the people out of Egypt.

I suggest that Hobbie and Amo invest in a Strong's and set the bong and Ellen Whtie down for a minute.

Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Two times Satan contended with the Lord concerning His servants Joshua and Moses. Both times the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke thee". Babel on, son of Babylon.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Apr 19, 2024 - 09:31:38Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Two times Satan contended with the Lord concerning His servants Joshua and Moses. Both times the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke thee". Babel on, son of Babylon.

LOL!

You don't realize the context of the passage demonstrates if the title Lord is meant as respect to a human OR respect to Deity. You JUST PROVED THE POINT I WAS MAKING. Well done Amo! 

Quote from: Cathlodox on Fri Apr 19, 2024 - 18:12:10LOL!

You don't realize the context of the passage demonstrates if the title Lord is meant as respect to a human OR respect to Deity. You JUST PROVED THE POINT I WAS MAKING. Well done Amo! 

Twisted is, as twisted does, and our thinks I reckon.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/zechariah/3.html

Quoted material below from link above, emphasis is mine.

QuoteZechariah 3
The vision in the foregoing chapter gave assurances of the re-establishing of the civil interests of the Jewish nation, the promises of which terminated in Christ. Now the vision in this chapter concerns their church-state, and their ecclesiastical interests, and assures them that they shall be put into a good posture again; and the promises of this also have an eye to Christ, who is not only our prince, but the high priest of our profession, of whom Joshua was a type. Here is, I. A vision relating to Joshua, as the representative of the church in his time, representing the disadvantages he laboured under, and the people in him, with the redress of the grievances of both. 1. He is accused by Satan, but is brought off by Christ, ver 1, 2. 2. He appears in filthy garments, but has them changed, ver 3-5. 3. He is assured of being established in his office if he conduct himself well, ver 6, 7. II. A sermon relating to Christ, who is here called "The branch," who should be endued with all perfections for his undertaking, should be carried triumphantly through it, and by whom we should have pardon and peace, ver 8-10.

Joshua resisted and Upheld; Joshua Purified from Pollution; Joshua Reinstalled in His Office. (b. c.520.)

There was a Joshua that was a principal agent in the first settling of Israel in Canaan; here is another of the same name very active in their second settlement there after the captivity; Jesus is the same name, and it signifies Saviour; and they were both figures of him that was to come, our chief captain and our chief priest. The angel that talked with Zechariah showed him Joshua the high priest; it is probable that the prophet saw him frequently, that he spoke to him, and that there was a great intimacy between them; but, in his common views, he only saw how he appeared before men; if he must know how he stands before the Lord, it must be shown him in vision; and so it is shown him. And men are really as they are with God, not as they appear in the eye of the world. He stood before the angel of the Lord, that is, before Christ, the Lord of the angels, to whom even the high priests themselves, of Aaron's order, were accountable. He stood before the angel of the Lord to execute his office, to minister to God under the inspection of the angels. He stood to consult the oracle on the behalf of Israel, for whom, as high priest, he was agent. Guilt and corruption are our two great discouragements when we stand before God. By the guilt of the sins committed by us we have become obnoxious to the justice of God; by the power of the sin that dwells in us we have become odious to the holiness of God. All God's Israel are in danger upon these two accounts. Joshua was so here, for the law made men priests that had infirmity, Heb 7 28. And, as to both, we have relief from Jesus Christ, who is made of God to us both righteousness and sanctification.

I. Joshua is accused as a criminal, but is justified. 1. A violent opposition is made to him. Satan stands at his right hand to resist him to be a Satan to him, a law-adversary. He stands at his right hand, as the prosecutor, or witness, at the right hand of the prisoner. Note, The devil is the accuser of the brethren, that accuses them before God day and night, Rev 12 10. Some think the chief priest was accused for the sin of many of the inferior priests, in marrying strange wives, which they were much guilty of after their return out of captivity, Ezra 9 1, 2; Neh 13 28. When God is about to reestablish the priesthood Satan objects the sins that were found among the priests, as rendering them unworthy the honour designed them. It is by our own folly that we give Satan advantage against us and furnish him with matter for reproach and accusation; and if any thing be amiss, especially with the priests, Satan will be sure to aggravate it and make the worst of it. He stood to resist him, that is, to oppose the service he was doing for the public good. He stood at his right hand, the hand of action, to discourage him, and raise difficulties in his way. Note, When we stand before God to minister to him, or stand up for God to serve his interests, we must expect to meet with all the resistance that Satan's subtlety and malice can give us. Let us then resist him that resists us and he shall flee from us. 2. A victorious defence is made for him (v. 2): The Lord (that is, the Lord Christ) said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee.Note, It is the happiness of the saints that the Judge is their friend; the same that they are accused to is their patron and protector, and an advocate for them, and he will be sure to bring them off. (1.) Satan is here checked by one that has authority, that has conquered him, and many a time silenced him. The accuser of the brethren, of the ministers and the ministry, is cast out; his indictments are quashed, and his suggestions against them as well as his suggestions to them, are shown to be malicious, frivolous, and vexatious. The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan! The Lord said (that is, the Lord our Redeemer), The Lord rebuke thee, that is, the Lord the Creator. The power of God is engaged for the making of the grace of Christ effectual. "The Lord restrain thy malicious rage, reject thy malicious charge, and revenge upon thee thy enmity to a servant of his" Note, those that belong to Christ have him ready to appear vigorously for them when Satan appears most vehement against them. He does not parley with him, but stops his mouth immediately with this sharp reprimand: The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan! This is the best way of dealing with that furious enemy. Get thee behind me, Satan. (2.) Satan is here argued with. He resists the priest, but let him know that his resistance, [1.] Will be fruitless; it will be to no purpose to attempt any thing against Jerusalem, for the Lord has chosen it, and he will abide by his choice. Whatever is objected against God's people, God saw it; he foresaw it when he chose them and yet he chose them, and therefore that can be no inducement to him now to reject them; he knew the worst of them when he chose them; and his election shall obtain. [2.] It is unreasonable; for is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Joshua is so, and the priesthood, and the people, whose representative he is. Christ has not that to say for them for which they are to be praised, but that for which they are to be pitied. Note, Christ is ready to make the best of his people, and takes notice of every thing that is pleadable in excuse of their infirmities, so far is he from being extreme to mark what they do amiss. They have been lately in the fire; no wonder that they are black and smoked, and have the smell of fire upon them, but they are therefore to be excused, not to be accused. One can expect no other than that those who but the other day were captives in Babylon should appear very mean and despicable. They have been lately brought out of great affliction; and is Satan so barbarous as to desire to have them thrown into affliction again? They have been wonderfully delivered out of the fire, that God might be glorified in them; and will he then cast them off and abandon them? No, he will not quench the smoking flax, the smoking fire-brand; for he snatched it out of the fire because he intended to make use of it. Note, Narrow escapes from imminent danger are happy presages and powerful pleas for more eminent favours. A converted soul is a brand plucked out of the fire by a miracle of free grace, and therefore shall not be left to be a prey to Satan.

Quite a bit more to read at the link provided. A good read , well worth the time. Our Lord Jesus rebuked Satan the accuser of the brethren when defending Joshua against his accusations, and again when Satan contended with our Lord over the body of Moses.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Apr 19, 2024 - 21:56:34Twisted is, as twisted does, and our thinks I reckon.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/zechariah/3.html

Quoted material below from link above, emphasis is mine.

Quite a bit more to read at the link provided. A good read , well worth the time. Our Lord Jesus rebuked Satan the accuser of the brethren when defending Joshua against his accusations, and again when Satan contended with our Lord over the body of Moses.

Yes, you got the point - Jesus rebuked Satan and then referred Satan to the Father for more rebuking.

Point being in Jude that Michael the archangel said he WASN'T the Lord.