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Quote from: Cathlodox on Fri Apr 19, 2024 - 23:32:35Yes, you got the point - Jesus rebuked Satan and then referred Satan to the Father for more rebuking.

Point being in Jude that Michael the archangel said he WASN'T the Lord.

No, you say he said he wasn't the Lord, not scripture.

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

He says exactly what our Lord Jesus said when Satan was contending with the Lord about Joshua as the accuser of the brethren. The Lord rebuke thee, that is all. And rightly so.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The scriptures themselves in revealing that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ used these exact words when addressing Satan's contentions during the old covenant era, connect Jude 1:9 to that exact event, which occurred during the old covenant era as well. Both representing a direct confrontation between the pre incarnate Christ, and Satan. You may of course believe whatever you wish, but many including myself, will not accept your addition to scripture in accordance with your preconcieved ideas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO67X1WbE08

Just saw this. A good video addressing the SDA belief that Michael was pre incarnate Christ.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Apr 20, 2024 - 07:41:33No, you say he said he wasn't the Lord, not scripture.

Jude clarified that Michael the archangel WASN'T THE LORD.

Go back and read that post again.

Look up the Greek meaning of the word Lord comparing verse 5 and the one in question, I'm confident you'll figure it out Amo.

Quote from: Hobie on Sun Jan 28, 2024 - 06:17:58Well, lets look and see what we find as the scriptures as it gives Him many titles, 'Captain of the Lords Host', 'Prince of the Host', and of course 'Wonderful Counselor', 'The mighty God', 'The everlasting Father', 'Prince of Peace'. We find that this 'Prince' is the one in Daniel 10:13 and Daniel 12:1 is also in many other places..

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:25 (KJV)

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:14-15 (KJV)

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)

 And here is more..'Pre-Incarnate Appearances of Christ

The Old Testament Scriptures refer to a being who, on several occasions, either appeared or spoke to human beings. Various titles were applied to this being, such as "the angel of the Lord," "the angel of God," or "the captain of the host of the Lord." The Old Testament references reveal that this being was divine, not an angel. The word translated "angel" in the Bible literally means messenger and sometimes refers to beings other than angels.

When, at a specific point in time, He was incarnated in human flesh, He added a complete human nature to His pre-existent, eternal, divine nature.

An example of an appearance by this being is recorded in Exodus 3–4. The person who appeared to Moses in the burning bush is called "the angel of the Lord" (3:2); however, He is identified as "the Lord" and "God" (3:4) and "I am" (3:14). He claimed to be "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (3:6). Moses hid his face from this being, "for he was afraid to look upon God" (3:6). These facts signify that a divine being appeared to Moses. Because the Scriptures clearly teach that no human being has ever seen God the Father (Jn. 1:18; 6:46), it must be concluded that this divine being was not the Father. The Bible also indicates that Christ is the being who reveals God to the world (Jn. 1:18; 14:8–9; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3). It seems evident, then, that Christ was the being who made these appearances to Moses and others in Old Testament times, and these appearances testify to His pre-existence before His incarnation in human flesh.

Christ's existence did not begin when He was conceived in Mary's womb and born into the world several months later. As an eternal divine being, He had always existed without beginning and end throughout eternity past and Old Testament history. When, at a specific point in time, He was incarnated in human flesh, He added a complete human nature to His pre-existent, eternal, divine nature. The Word, who existed with God the Father before the beginning of creation, became flesh and dwelt among people on the earth for more than thirty years (Jn. 1:1–3, 14).'... and more from my friend GC in one of the forums.

The word "archangel" is the word which throws people off most. The fact that "angel" is usually considered a created being is the tricky part. We forget the real meaning of "angel." The word means "messenger of God." Here is the full definition of "angel" from the Greek word, according to my Strong's Concordance:

angelos, n. angel, messenger; this can refer to a human messenger, such as John the Baptist, or messengers sent by John the Baptist or Jesus, or to the supernatural class of being that serves God: the angel:-- angel [96], angels [80], messenger [4], messengers [3], angel's [2]

Now I would ask two questions: 1) Was Jesus a human? and 2) Was Jesus a messenger, sent by God? My answers to both of these are in the affirmative. So, by this definition, one could even have used the term "angel" for Jesus. However, there is nothing in the definition of "angel" which implies that it must be a created being! (Here is where our traditional concepts can throw us off the track of truth.)

Now, apart from that little side-trip, I will not hereafter attempt to call Jesus an angel, for it is to be noted that the Bible does not try to confuse us by doing this. The Bible writers were careful to use the term for beings other than God Himself, unlike the term "son of man" which can be applied to Jesus, to Ezekiel, or to any number of men.

However, the term "archangel" is not the same Greek word as "angel." As previously noted, it is used but twice. The definition in the concordance is not helpful, saying that the word means "archangel" with no additional information. From that, I might safely conclude that the word is not fully understood. When I find that word in the dictionary, it says archangel means "an angel of the highest order," and that the prefix "arch-" means "chief" or "principal," which to me still leave questions.

It is said that "archangel" means "over all the angels." If you accept this, then the being that is "over" the angels may or may not be an angel himself--simply their superior.

Now, laying the definitions themselves aside, let's look at the identity of Michael. On this point, we can be very clear. There can be no mistake as to who Michael is.

Michael is mentioned in Daniel 10:13. "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: bu, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes [marginal note: Or, the first], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

In Daniel 12:1, Michael is further identified: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

So, Michael is "the great prince" who stands "for the children of thy people." Who is this prince? Just three chapters earlier, we read this: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..."

So, here we have a clear reference to "THE Prince." We know who the Messiah is--that is Jesus. We also know that "prince" means the son of a king. I don't see how the angels (the created messengers of heaven) would be called by this term, do you? So to me, it is quite clear.

Now, if you accept that "archangel" means "over the angels," how many would fit this description? Certainly, Jesus would fit. But we also have God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Depending now on whether or not an angel could also fill this position, perhaps you would have Gabriel (or even other commanding angels). So depending on the definitions (is God "one" or "three"; does Gabriel count), each one may interpret the number of archangels differently.

In conclusion:

1. Messiah is "the Prince."
2. Archangel means "over the angels" or "commander of the angels."
3. Jesus is the Messiah.
4. Jesus, as God, is over the angels (archangel).
5. Jesus pre-existed His earthly existence (John 1:1-14).
6. Jesus did not create Himself (this would be impossible)!
7. Jesus created everything; He is the Creator (Col. 1:14-16).'

Hobie, I just read this, actually all of the posts all the way back to the first ones five years ago. I'll come back and post to you in response to your post to me.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sat Apr 20, 2024 - 09:40:35Jude clarified that Michael the archangel WASN'T THE LORD.

Go back and read that post again.

Look up the Greek meaning of the word Lord comparing verse 5 and the one in question, I'm confident you'll figure it out Amo.

There is nothing to figure out. You have determined in your own mind that Michael saying The Lord rebuke thee, equals Michael saying he is not the Lord Christ, even though we have example of our Lord Christ saying the exact same thing when contending with the devil concerning Joshua. We will never see eye to eye concerning this. What you consider proof, I consider no proof at all. In that our Lord said the very thing that Michael later said as well, in the same situations of addressing the accuser of the brethren. The former in relation to Joshua, and the latter in relation to Moses.

The event under examination is obviously connected to the resurrection of Moses' body. Which event scripture connects both Michael and our Lord Christ directly to. As such, SDA's see this verse as more evidence that Michael is in fact the pre incarnate Christ, not evidence against it.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Amo, Jude is telling you Jesus is the Lord in Verse 5...
...Michael the archangel defers the rebuking of the Devil TO THE LORD.
...Therefore Michael CAN'T be the Lord because he distinguishes himself FROM THE LORD.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun Apr 21, 2024 - 21:18:55Amo, Jude is telling you Jesus is the Lord in Verse 5...
...Michael the archangel defers the rebuking of the Devil TO THE LORD.
...Therefore Michael CAN'T be the Lord because he distinguishes himself FROM THE LORD.

Zec 3:1  And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

The Lord absolutely can and did say "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan".

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. 4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. 5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. 6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. 7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Mrk 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Luk 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son? 42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?


Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Amo, you do realize that the Son does everything in conjunction with the Father, right? You do realize that The Lord refers Satan to the Lord in the process of Him rebuking Satan, right?

God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) do EVERYTHING together. The Person's CAN'T BE SEPARATED.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sat Apr 27, 2024 - 15:44:48Amo, you do realize that the Son does everything in conjunction with the Father, right? You do realize that The Lord refers Satan to the Lord in the process of Him rebuking Satan, right?

God (Father, Son & Holy Spirit) do EVERYTHING together. The Person's CAN'T BE SEPARATED.

Only once.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mrk 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 28, 2024 - 09:26:18Only once.

Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mrk 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus wasn't here crying out in despair...
...He's quoting the Psalm.

Which ends in victory.

Quote from: Cathlodox on Sun May 12, 2024 - 19:27:49Jesus wasn't here crying out in despair...
...He's quoting the Psalm.

Which ends in victory.

Thank you so much for telling us the exact Psalm. NOT!

Psa 22:1  To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2  O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3  But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4  Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5  They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6  But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psa 22:7  All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8  He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Psa 22:9  But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10  I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11  Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12  Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
Psa 22:13  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15  My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16  For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17  I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19  But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20  Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Psa 22:21  Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psa 22:22  I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23  Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24  For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25  My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26  The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27  All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28  For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psa 22:29  All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30  A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31  They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

No, Jesus was not quoting the Psalm, David prophesied of our Lord's suffering.

Quote from: Rella on Mon May 13, 2024 - 08:06:23Thank you so much for telling us the exact Psalm. NOT!

I see that Amo provided the Psalm, I hope you were able to read it.

Jesus said that His words would NEVER FAIL Matthew 24, 35

Jesus said that everything in the Law & Prophets HAD TO BE FULFILLED and He was the one that would fulfill these prophecies Luke 24, 44.

Jesus said that it was "foolish" NOT TO BELIEVE that the Old Testament said Christ's failure would be impossible Luke 24, 25 - 27.

Scripture is explicit that Christ would not fail therefore the Jesus SDA's promulgate is ANOTHER JESUS, a peccable Christ that could have sinned and lost it's salvation. This is clearly another Jesus and not the Jesus of Scripture.

As Adventists are fond of boasting that the name Michael means "who is like God".

While the Hebrew meaning of the name Michael is "who is like God?" the name is a rhetorical question with the correct answer being NO ONE IS LIKE GOD.

The SDA's claim Michael is "like God" thereby defaulting into Jesus is NOT GOD. This shouldn't come as a shock to anyone as the SDA's have been very honest about this in their Sabbath Herald Church paper.

QuoteAdventist Signs of the Times, March 21, 1878

Bible question to the editor

Q. But does it not say that the Word was God?

A. Yes, and it says that he was with God. Being the Son of God of course he is properly called God. This is his name, but he was NOT THE VERY and ETERNAL God Himself for it says that he was with God

QuoteAdventist Sabbath Herald, Sept 12, 1893


Was Christ the God of Israel?

Who was this being who thus called Moses to this important mission? Was it God the Father or God the Son? Was it "THE KING ETERNAL, IMORTAL, INVISIBLE, the only wise God" OR was it Immanuel?

QuoteSabbath Herald, October 13, 1859: Just so with Jesus and his Father : they are one in Spirit, one in purpose, and one in action ; but not identical in body and person. This view, and this only, is consistent with the scripture which represents Christ as a created being, ["the beginning of the creation of God," Rev. iii, 14], and that large class of texts which speak of Christ as distinct from the Father, in as plain terms as language ,can employ, and declare him to be subordinate to him, sent forth by him, dying to reconcile the world to him, &c., declarations utterly at variance with the popular idea of a triune God
Bible Eco and Signs of the times October 1, 1899: There are two facts which are amply sufficient to account for Christ's statement recorded in John 14 : 28. One is that Christ is the Son of God. While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, while Christ's personality had a beginning. 

In the SDA rubric Michael the Arcangel had a flesh body PRIOR to the incarnation - this flesh body looked identical to Lucifer's flesh body with the difference being the life force Father God poured into Michael's flesh body was the actual life of Flesh Father - thus when Ellen White said "IN HIM WAS LIFE ETERNAL AND UNCREATED" she means that Michael christ was operating actual Deity which was on loan - if Michael christ was a good creature he would be able to keep the deity and wield it - if creature christ acted badly the deity would be extracted leaving a husk.

It is for the above reasons and many, many more that the Jesus SDAism advocates is not the same Jesus detailed in the Old Testament and New Testament.

More Babylonian gobbledegook. Continuous twisting and manipulation of the words of others, much like the evil one, who started this whole mess.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.