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Quote from: Amo on Fri Apr 05, 2024 - 07:20:51I know of no such testimony from scripture.  ", but nothing about anything else God created coming to and end. Save the future end predicted for this planet.

You also know of no other beings from other planets in scripture.

My point is .... can you prove that there are other beginnings ... some from other planets?

I maintain the scriptures we read are specific to us as Christians.

I read no other " religious" papers to know what they teach.

If the bible tells is about our beginning and end....

How would you even know if there were other beginnings and endings over eternity past?

You have said " There certainly are other beings, some likely from other planets"

Why do you say that?

Quote from: Rella on Fri Apr 05, 2024 - 10:00:04You also know of no other beings from other planets in scripture.

My point is .... can you prove that there are other beginnings ... some from other planets?

I maintain the scriptures we read are specific to us as Christians.

I read no other " religious" papers to know what they teach.

If the bible tells is about our beginning and end....

How would you even know if there were other beginnings and endings over eternity past?

You have said " There certainly are other beings, some likely from other planets"

Why do you say that?

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Whoever all the sons of God were, who presented themselves before the Lord, they were not from earth. As none from our planet could even remain alive in the very presence of God. Nor could the sons of God who shouted for joy at the creation of earth been of the earth, for obvious reasons. The Lord created worlds, not a world. One could presume there is no life on any of them if they wish, but such is not scripturally supported. I presume there is life on other worlds, and believe that the scriptures do suggest such, though I could not prove such from scripture. The same would apply to my own thoughts concerning other worlds or life existing which has already passed away. Though I think it not likely, when considering the nature of God.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Apr 05, 2024 - 20:59:52Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Whoever all the sons of God were, who presented themselves before the Lord, they were not from earth. As none from our planet could even remain alive in the very presence of God. Nor could the sons of God who shouted for joy at the creation of earth been of the earth, for obvious reasons. The Lord created worlds, not a world. One could presume there is no life on any of them if they wish, but such is not scripturally supported. I presume there is life on other worlds, and believe that the scriptures do suggest such, though I could not prove such from scripture. The same would apply to my own thoughts concerning other worlds or life existing which has already passed away. Though I think it not likely, when considering the nature of God.

Thank you Amo,

Valid points.

Opens up the mind to more than just mere speculation... at least mine.

If I can find a thread (elsewhere) about said subject, may I use these verses and credit your posting them? If so Ill let you know.

Quote from: Rella on Sat Apr 06, 2024 - 07:35:50Thank you Amo,

Valid points.

Opens up the mind to more than just mere speculation... at least mine.

If I can find a thread (elsewhere) about said subject, may I use these verses and credit your posting them? If so Ill let you know.

Your welcome. Of course you can share any and all bible verses I ever quote. I am not the author of them, or the truth in any way shape or form. You need not credit me for thoughts or ideas which surely have not originated in my mind alone or first.

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dESkfaURR38

Good video about scientific evidence for the flood in the Grand Canyon, discrimination against YEC's by the establishment, and the process of overcoming that discrimination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjPcSQUY2W0

Good one about Sodom and the cities of the Plain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ultaFBsfEvs

Good video about new unexplainable enigmas in the Orion Nebula, discovered by the James Webb. Making scientists reconsider their theories concerning planet and star formation. No doubt ones world view will greatly effect whatever new theories may be proposed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0XMuCGQBWk

Another video about the discoveries of the James Webb, and the problems with the many assumptions scientists have been making concerning the Big Bang.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXp4E-ASV_w

Another video concerning new observations by the James Webb telescope, creating problems for the Big Bang theory. Revealing that the expansion of the Universe is not uniform. Expansion rates differing in several areas. This is hard to explain from a one big bang perspective. Not so much though, from a God created perspective. Which need not include deep time or uniform expansion rates throughout the Universe concerning a big bang.

Perhaps God's method of creation involves something similar to big bangs or the like which leave observable evidence of expansion. And what we can observe in greater context and detail now, reveals more than one incident of creation, and therefore expansion rates. More likely of course, than numerous random chance smaller bangs producing such. If such is even tenable at all.

In any case, updates and changes in theories will have to be made. No doubt in accordance with the world view, or should I say Universe view of the ones making them. 

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 07, 2024 - 13:42:43https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXp4E-ASV_w

Another video concerning new observations by the James Webb telescope, creating problems for the Big Bang theory. Revealing that the expansion of the Universe is not uniform. Expansion rates differing in several areas. This is hard to explain from a one big bang perspective. Not so much though, from a God created perspective. Which need not include deep time or uniform expansion rates throughout the Universe concerning a big bang.

Perhaps God's method of creation involves something similar to big bangs or the like which leave observable evidence of expansion. And what we can observe in greater context and detail now, reveals more than one incident of creation, and therefore expansion rates. More likely of course, than numerous random chance smaller bangs producing such. If such is even tenable at all.

I don't understand why you even posted that. It certainly does not in any way support your view of the cosmological history and in fact it does quite the opposite. That there are still things to be studied and learned about the big bang and the evolution of the universe does not speak against the present cosmology.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 07, 2024 - 13:42:43In any case, updates and changes in theories will have to be made. No doubt in accordance with the world view, or should I say Universe view of the ones making them.

Of course, updates and changes in the theory will have to be made.  That is what science is all about, making updates and changes in the theory as more information and data become available.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 08, 2024 - 05:13:14I don't understand why you even posted that.

I am very tempted to make this the title of this mega-topic.

You think 2040 posts could have possibly been enough to run this topic to ground??   

QuoteI don't understand why you even posted that. It certainly does not in any way support your view of the cosmological history and in fact it does quite the opposite. That there are still things to be studied and learned about the big bang and the evolution of the universe does not speak against the present cosmology.

Are you of the opinion that I post what I do, based upon your ability to understand, agree with, and or even acknowledge my posts? If so, you need not bother yourself with such presumptions, they are incorrect. Why would you think you could know exactly why I do anything, or anyone else for that matter.

According to the video, past presumptions of deep time evolutionary theories which are often presented by those of that faith as facts rather than theories, continue to be proved very wrong. Undaunted by these errors as most of deep religious faith are, they will of course continue their faith driven speculations and theories upon the beaten deep time scenario path.

I have posted many articles from deep timers on this thread in the past, regarding their findings of complexity within supposed evolved life forms further and further back in time. Rightly suggesting that these observations are more conducive of support for complexity from the very beginning, as in the biblical creation account, than deep time slow evolutionary processes.

I have suggested the same views regarding the many articles I have posted regarding the evidences of greater social, agricultural, and technological skills and complexity being found within the civilizations of the past, than deep timers expected. That such are more conducive of support for all of the above existing within societies from the beginning, as the biblical account of creation testifies, that humanity was always highly capable of such from day one of their creation.

Now, I am rightly suggesting that highly complex galaxies existing so near the starting date of the supposed big bang theory also of course, suggest complexity from the very beginning, as the biblical creation account testifies. In all of these situations, those of the deep timers faith, continue to push their faith based projections deeper and deeper back in time. As they must to support their theories in light of continuing new evidences which require either a major change in the base structure of their theory, or more and more time to accommodate the existing one.

Those of the biblical creation faith of course, have no need of such adjustments. Understanding that there was complexity and a fully developed universe, with fully developed galaxies, solar systems, planets, orbits of those planets, biospheres upon those planets, ecosystems, niches, plants, animals, organisms, and all forms and manners of life down to the microscopic level and beyond for all we know, from the very beginning. Just as the holy scriptures testify. This is in part, what I have suggested in the past, and continue to suggest in many of my posts. Regardless of your understanding, agreement, and or approval, or not. 

QuoteOf course, updates and changes in the theory will have to be made.  That is what science is all about, making updates and changes in the theory as more information and data become available.

Yes, we all know this. Updates and changes will be made by those of different faiths, according to the dictates of the faiths which each have chosen.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrluQhvZLmo

Another good video by Answers In Genesis Canada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT9peJYfqnA

Great sermon by Voddie Baucham at Answers In Genesis.

A couple more good videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch9w4QIfjEI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgSITin3obc

Quote from: Amo on Sat Apr 27, 2024 - 10:37:40https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgSITin3obc

The speaker of that video so often makes the same error that you so often do.  When God says, in Genesis 1:14, "Let there be lights...", or in verse 15, "God made two great lights....", he states that incorrectly to mean God created the lights. He is wrong and you are wrong with that interpretation.  The Hebrew word "hawyaw" translated as "let there be" does not mean create, and neither does the Hebrew word "awsaw" translated as "made" mean create. You decry the interpretation of the Hebrew word "Yome" in selected verses of the Genesis creation account to mean anything but a 24-hour period of time when in fact it does not always carry that meaning.  But then you insist that the words "hawyaw" and "awsaw" in the Genesis creation account must mean create.

There is, as a matter of divine truth, nothing in verses 14-19 in the Genesis account that limits the actual process that God used to make the sun and the moon. It is only the YEC that imposes such limits on God. It is a shame that the YEC seems to think so little of God.

Also as so often occurs in such videos, the YEC, and the speaker in this video, incorrectly (and in apparent ignorance), tries to invoke the laws of thermodynamics to impose their own interpretation of God's creation account and actually place limits on God in doing so.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Apr 28, 2024 - 06:44:10The speaker of that video so often makes the same error that you so often do.  When God says, in Genesis 1:14, "Let there be lights...", or in verse 15, "God made two great lights....", he states that incorrectly to mean God created the lights. He is wrong and you are wrong with that interpretation.  The Hebrew word "hawyaw" translated as "let there be" does not mean create, and neither does the Hebrew word "awsaw" translated as "made" mean create. You decry the interpretation of the Hebrew word "Yome" in selected verses of the Genesis creation account to mean anything but a 24-hour period of time when in fact it does not always carry that meaning.  But then you insist that the words "hawyaw" and "awsaw" in the Genesis creation account must mean create.

There is, as a matter of divine truth, nothing in verses 14-19 in the Genesis account that limits the actual process that God used to make the sun and the moon. It is only the YEC that imposes such limits on God. It is a shame that the YEC seems to think so little of God.

Also as so often occurs in such videos, the YEC, and the speaker in this video, incorrectly (and in apparent ignorance), tries to invoke the laws of thermodynamics to impose their own interpretation of God's creation account and actually place limits on God in doing so.

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6  And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7  And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8  And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12  And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13  And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14  And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15  And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16  And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18  And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21  And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22  And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29  And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Pardon us for believing what holy scripture simply and plainly states. Go to, continue to seek out your own explanations, and prove them with the theories you choose above others.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 28, 2024 - 10:07:32Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6  And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7  And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8  And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Gen 1:10  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12  And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13  And the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14  And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15  And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16  And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17  And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18  And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19  And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20  And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21  And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22  And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:23  And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24  And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29  And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Exo 20:8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Pardon us for believing what holy scripture simply and plainly states. Go to, continue to seek out your own explanations, and prove them with the theories you choose above others.

You have only affirmed what I said.  When in Genesis it says, And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. That does not say that God created light. But of course you need that distortion of truth to support your false faith and total lack of respect of God's attributes and abilities.

When it says in Genesis, "And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so", that is not a statement of creation.  But again, you need that distortion of truth to support your false faith and total lack of respect of God's attributes and abilities.

On and on, you distort the Scriptures.  It is you who continue to seek out your own explanations and prove them with your faulty translations/interpretations.

Psalm 33:

6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.

8 Let all the earth fear the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Apr 28, 2024 - 06:44:10There is, as a matter of divine truth, nothing in verses 14-19 in the Genesis account that limits the actual process that God used to make the sun and the moon.

It is only the YEC that imposes such limits on God. It is a shame that the YEC seems to think so little of God.

Their god is tradition.  Critical thinking is heresy to the Young-Earth crowd.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Apr 28, 2024 - 18:37:49Their god is tradition.  Critical thinking is heresy to the Young-Earth crowd.

I do think you are right about that.

I just finished reading, Universe in Creation: A New Understanding of the Big Bang and the Emergence of Life, by Roy R. Gould, published by Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.

I think it is a very interesting read. Gould does not speak about God; but he doesn't deny the existence of God or God's involvement in all of this. His presentation is strictly from a scientific point of view. He speaks a lot about "nature's plan".  If you simply insert "God's plan" everywhere that Gould uses the term "nature's plan" you get a very good description of my Old Earth Creation view of things.

I would not be surprised to find that he might agree with me and that his "nature's plan" is his "scientific" way of saying God's plan.

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Apr 28, 2024 - 18:08:30Psalm 33:

6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Does God literally have a mouth? I seriously doubt that.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Apr 28, 2024 - 17:36:42You have only affirmed what I said.  When in Genesis it says, And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. That does not say that God created light. But of course you need that distortion of truth to support your false faith and total lack of respect of God's attributes and abilities.

When it says in Genesis, "And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so", that is not a statement of creation.  But again, you need that distortion of truth to support your false faith and total lack of respect of God's attributes and abilities.

On and on, you distort the Scriptures.  It is you who continue to seek out your own explanations and prove them with your faulty translations/interpretations.

Please clarify why not.

Is it because there is no where written that says God sat with his Tinker Toys and Modeling Clay and physically made them or is it because you do not regard His saying/speaking things into existence as being creation.

To me... and I AMNOT a YEC...as you should know by now... but to me if he moved some existing light to the earth from somewhere... the end result is His creation and that counts.

Quote from: Rella on Mon Apr 29, 2024 - 08:38:33Please clarify why not.

There is a difference, especially with God, in creating something from nothing, i.e.,ex nihilo, and making something out of something that exists. In the scriptures, the statement that God created, i.e., the Hebrew word bawraw, is limited almost, if not exclusively, to creation ex nihilo.  Light was not created ex nihilo; rather it was the result of energy created ex nihilo in the big bang.

In the Genesis creation account there are three instances of God's creating.  The first was heaven and earth.  There several is not many who regard the phrase heaven and earth as a Hebrew merism, a metaphor expressing everything that is.  For me that is the entire nonbiological universe.  The energy from the big bang was and is the source of the brute universe.

The second instance of creation was life which from its very initiation is the source for the entire biological universe.

The third instance of creation is presented as the spiritual life of mankind, namely that which is in the very image of God Himself.

I believe that everything else is, one way or another, made or derived from and through those three instances of God's creation. We human beings, as do all life forms, have the biology that comes from the process of procreation which is an integral part of God's creation of life.  Thus physically were not and are not created. Additionally we human beings have a spirit that derives not from anything created in Genesis but is formed in each of us individually by God.

That is what I believe and I think that is consistent with the Genesis account of creation even if I do not have all the detail and specifics involved in God's doing so.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Apr 29, 2024 - 10:51:34There is a difference, especially with God, in creating something from nothing, i.e.,ex nihilo, and making something out of something that exists. In the scriptures, the statement that God created, i.e., the Hebrew word bawraw, is limited almost, if not exclusively, to creation ex nihilo.  Light was not created ex nihilo; rather it was the result of energy created ex nihilo in the big bang.

In the Genesis creation account there are three instances of God's creating.  The first was heaven and earth.  There several is not many who regard the phrase heaven and earth as a Hebrew merism, a metaphor expressing everything that is.  For me that is the entire nonbiological universe.  The energy from the big bang was and is the source of the brute universe.

The second instance of creation was life which from its very initiation is the source for the entire biological universe.

The third instance of creation is presented as the spiritual life of mankind, namely that which is in the very image of God Himself.

I believe that everything else is, one way or another, made or derived from and through those three instances of God's creation. We human beings, as do all life forms, have the biology that comes from the process of procreation which is an integral part of God's creation of life.  Thus physically were not and are not created. Additionally we human beings have a spirit that derives not from anything created in Genesis but is formed in each of us individually by God.

That is what I believe and I think that is consistent with the Genesis account of creation even if I do not have all the detail and specifics involved in God's doing so.

Well, I thank you....

But if you want to be technical the fact or quasi fact that there may have been a big bang came about because of God working with his chemistry set and modeling clay and super balls........

ERGO.... the big bang was created therefore the light that came from it was too

Quote from: Rella on Mon Apr 29, 2024 - 15:00:45Well, I thank you....

But if you want to be technical the fact or quasi fact that there may have been a big bang came about because of God working with his chemistry set and modeling clay and super balls........

ERGO.... the big bang was created therefore the light that came from it was too

That is not really true.  You and I came from God's creation of life.  But we were not created.  Biologically, we came by way of procreation, the natural law God established for living beings.  We were made, not created (I believe our spirits were created).  Light was established from the energy and the natural law that God created as the big bang.  We have a very good idea of how and when in the timeline that light was formed or emerged. Light came about; it was not created ex nihilo.

We can make water simply by combining hydrogen and oxygen. That is making water, not creating water. We can make light simply by running electricity through a wire or by setting something of fire, but that is not creating light, that is just using existing stuff to make light.

When we speak of God's creation, we must be precise. In the scriptures, God's creation is nearly, if not truly, always ex nihilo. To be less than precise is to fail to give true recognition of the wonder and glory of God's creation.  In fact, that is exactly what the atheist scientist does when he tries to explain that the big bang really came about from something that existed before the big bang.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Apr 30, 2024 - 05:25:03That is not really true.  You and I came from God's creation of life.  But we were not created.  Biologically, we came by way of procreation, the natural law God established for living beings.  We were made, not created (I believe our spirits were created).  Light was established from the energy and the natural law that God created as the big bang.  We have a very good idea of how and when in the timeline that light was formed or emerged. Light came about; it was not created ex nihilo.

We can make water simply by combining hydrogen and oxygen. That is making water, not creating water. We can make light simply by running electricity through a wire or by setting something of fire, but that is not creating light, that is just using existing stuff to make light.

When we speak of God's creation, we must be precise. In the scriptures, God's creation is nearly, if not truly, always ex nihilo. To be less than precise is to fail to give true recognition of the wonder and glory of God's creation.  In fact, that is exactly what the atheist scientist does when he tries to explain that the big bang really came about from something that existed before the big bang.

So basically then

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

is a false statement... as would be John 1:3

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Both Greek interlinears...

All things were made by him;
and without him was not any
thing made that was made.

Peshitta

Everything was in his hand, and without him not even one thing existed of the things that existed.

LXX

And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.

I will respectfully disagree with your analysis because if God said.... and it came into being... God created.

Technically... "  In fact, that is exactly what the atheist scientist does when he tries to explain that the big bang really came about from something that existed before the big bang."

Is a true idea.... they just dont realize that the "something was God.

Quote from: Rella on Tue Apr 30, 2024 - 06:31:26So basically then

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

is a false statement... as would be John 1:3

No, not at all.  As I have noted before, the phrase, heavens and earth, is likely a merism, i.e., a metaphor which identifies every non-biological thing that exists.  That is essentially what the big bang is. The energy that existed in the big bang together with the entirety of the laws of nature is the source of everything except life and the spirits of mankind. Life is the second creation ex nihilo and the spirit of each human being is the third creation ex nihilo.

Quote from: Rella on Tue Apr 30, 2024 - 06:31:26I will respectfully disagree with your analysis because if God said.... and it came into being... God created.

I disagree.  I think that position trivializes the greatness of God's ability for creation ex nihilo.

Quote from: Rella on Tue Apr 30, 2024 - 06:31:26Technically... "  In fact, that is exactly what the atheist scientist does when he tries to explain that the big bang really came about from something that existed before the big bang."

Is a true idea.... they just dont realize that the "something was God.

That the "something was God" is faith not science.  I am sure that there are very many scientists who do realize and actually believe, i.e., have faith, that the something was God.  However, they can state that only from faith not from science.

There are far too many conservative Christians who want to treat their faith as science.  That is just wrong.  That is what put Giordano Bruno to death by burning him at the stake in 1600.

Quote from: Rella on Mon Apr 29, 2024 - 15:00:45ERGO.... the big bang was created therefore the light that came from it was too

That's like saying that Purina makes dog-poop.  No, they make dog FOOD.  The dogs do the rest.

Sorry for the gross example.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Apr 30, 2024 - 10:43:57That's like saying that Purina makes dog-poop.  No, they make dog FOOD.  The dogs do the rest.

Sorry for the gross example.

Where did light come from if it was not created?

Tell us what Gen 1:3... any translation... means

We commonly read...And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

Now some other translations have it very odd.

Contemporary English Version
God said, "I command light to shine!" And light started shining.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And God said: Be light made. And light was made.

Good News Translation
Then God commanded, "Let there be light"--and light appeared.

Psalms tells us...

Psalm 33:6,9
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth...

So if everything came about by the breath of His mount...When God said Let there be light... You cannot prove Hewe did not.

Cross References
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Genesis 2:4
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all the stars by the breath of His mouth.

Psalm 33:9
For He spoke, and it came to be; He commanded, and it stood firm.


Repeating... Let there be light and there was light.

Where did it come from?

Quote from: Rella on Wed May 01, 2024 - 09:52:55Where did light come from if it was not created?

Tell us what Gen 1:3... any translation... means

We commonly read...And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

Now some other translations have it very odd.

Contemporary English Version
God said, "I command light to shine!" And light started shining.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And God said: Be light made. And light was made.

Good News Translation
Then God commanded, "Let there be light"--and light appeared.

Psalms tells us...

Psalm 33:6,9
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth...

So if everything came about by the breath of His mount...When God said Let there be light... You cannot prove Hewe did not.

Cross References
2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Genesis 2:4
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all the stars by the breath of His mouth.

Psalm 33:9
For He spoke, and it came to be; He commanded, and it stood firm.


Repeating... Let there be light and there was light.

Where did it come from?

The very first particles to form in the big bang were the elementary particles called quarks. From these, eventually there formed the larger particles of protons, electrons, and neutrons. It took about 250,000 to 300,000 years for it to cool to the moment of the first light. This was the point at which the universe went from totally opaque to transparent.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed May 01, 2024 - 11:28:50The very first particles to form in the big bang were the elementary particles called quarks. From these, eventually there formed the larger particles of protons, electrons, and neutrons. It took about 250,000 to 300,000 years for it to cool to the moment of the first light. This was the point at which the universe went from totally opaque to transparent.

Where did those particles come from?

Quote from: Rella on Wed May 01, 2024 - 14:01:16Where did those particles come from?

The energy of the Big Bang; presumably by way of E=Mc², or if you prefer from M=E/c². And this together with the entire system of natural law imposed, i.e., created, by God at the time of the Big Bang.

But for some I would guess that there are no such natural laws created by God, since such was never mentioned in the Genesis account.