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Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jul 20, 2024 - 20:35:52But Romans 5:5-19 is not about salvation in Christ.  It is about our condition as we come into this world.  Paul is presenting the comparison between the effects of Adam's disobedience and the effects of Jesus' obedience on all people.  Clearly, the text says the people affected are the exact same people in both cases.  There is no legitimate reason to think otherwise. Verse 15 tells us that if the many died because of Adam. much more did the free gift abound for the many.  Verse 18 tells us just as Adam's trespass brought condemnation for all men so also Jesus' righteousness brought justification and life for all men.  Similarly for verse 19.  Now since Adam's sin effected the condition of the just born, or the preborn, then so also does Jesus' righteousness effect the condition of the just born, or the preborn.

The net effect then is that contrary to all those adhering to the doctrine of Original Sin, Paul says that Jesus' obedience and righteousness cancelled any possibility of original sin and instead produced Original Grace.  We come into this world not as fallen humanity.  Rather the fall of any person occurs just as it did for Adam, that is, when that person sins.

The discussion of salvation in Christ is discussed immediately following in Romans 5:20 and continues on through Romans 8:39.

First, you are assuming I disagree that what our Lord did was as universal as what Adam did, I do not. Second, we do definitely disagree upon the salvific nature of what He did or not. Our Lord justified all of humanity, and that has everything to do with humanities salvation or not. Apart from that justification, no one would or could be saved. That justification has put humanity back in control of their destinies by either accepting and exercising faith in that which has been done for them by God unto salvation, or rejecting our Lord's sacrifice unto damnation. It does not change our fallen natures until and or unless we choose the salvation offered. This is why we must be born again of the spirit and not the flesh. The justification our Lord supplied that was and is upon all of humanity, is not justification unto eternal life, but for those who choose it to be so. By submitting their lives once again to God the Father, whom Christ Jesus our Lord came to reunite us with, since we had fallen away through disobedience.

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, saved humanity from immediate destruction by justifying humanities present existence unto chosen salvation or damnation by those justified. Believing, accepting, and applying that sacrifice by choice to one's own life, leads to the justification and sanctification of the believer unto eternal life. Therefore the gospel of Jesus Christ to every peoples, nations, and tongues.

Psa 20:6  Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand. 7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. 8 They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. 9 Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call.

Psa 36:9  For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light. 10 O continue thy lovingkindness unto them that know thee; and thy righteousness to the upright in heart. 11 Let not the foot of pride come against me, and let not the hand of the wicked remove me. 12 There are the workers of iniquity fallen: they are cast down, and shall not be able to rise.

The workers of iniquity and those who trust not in God through Christ Jesus our Lord, are fallen and cast down. Such as were all of us, and are all of us, apart from acceptance of and salvation in Christ Jesus our lord. Such as Adam and Eve and all their offspring after them were, after they became disobedient to God. Each from that time forward needing to choose the salvation offered in Christ Jesus our Lord. Unlike our parents before the fall.

Act 1:21  Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Transgression or sin causes a fall from God's grace and or favor. Humanity fell, when our first parents fell. Our Lord's sacrifice though, justified humanity in their fallen condition and freed them from subjection to the one to whom they had fallen. Not unto eternal life though, until or unless they actually accepted and or applied that sacrifice by faith. Humanity as a whole owes their lives to Christ Jesus our Lord, nevertheless, those alone who accept and apply Christ's sacrifice to their own lives, will have eternal life. Proclaimed followers of Christ today, can fall from God's grace and favor just as Adam and Eve did in the garden. As Judas did by the wrong choices which he made.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

The vast majority of the Jewish nation fell from God's grace and favor by rejected their Messiah, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul predicted a falling away of the "Christian" church as well. When they determined not to believe the truth. Choosing pleasure in unrighteousness or sin.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The saved themsleves must trust and lean upon their Savior who alone can keep them from falling back into the old man once again. The old man is fallen and of the flesh, the new man in Christ Jesus our Lord walks in the spirit and not the flesh.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Who do you suppose the old man is, whom the saved choose to sacrifice in order to be in Christ? It is the fallen nature which we must voluntarily give up to God in Christ Jesus our Lord unto salvation and eternal life. The one we inherited from our first parents when they chose to disobey God in favor of the suggestion of the evil one. At which time we fell to the sophistries of the evil one, but were delivered from subjugation to him by the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, whom every old testament sacrifice pointed forward to in faith. Justifying humanity unto freedom to choose once again.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

AMEN!

Quote from: Amo on Sun Jul 21, 2024 - 14:29:18First, you are assuming I disagree that what our Lord did was as universal as what Adam did, I do not. Second, we do definitely disagree upon the salvific nature of what He did or not. Our Lord justified all of humanity, and that has everything to do with humanities salvation or not. Apart from that justification, no one would or could be saved. That justification has put humanity back in control of their destinies by either accepting and exercising faith in that which has been done for them by God unto salvation, or rejecting our Lord's sacrifice unto damnation. It does not change our fallen natures until and or unless we choose the salvation offered. This is why we must be born again of the spirit and not the flesh. The justification our Lord supplied that was and is upon all of humanity, is not justification unto eternal life, but for those who choose it to be so. By submitting their lives once again to God the Father, whom Christ Jesus our Lord came to reunite us with, since we had fallen away through disobedience.

I would seem that you are terribly confused about even what Justification means.  I won't bother to go further than that now. It's late, but I will come back and address the subject of justification.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Jul 21, 2024 - 00:43:44Yes, but it's more the editing than the writing. 

When they added chapter and verse numbers, they split the two chapters in the wrong place.  The first 4 verses of chapter 2 should have belonged to chapter 1.

Also, the two don't really belong next to each other.  Chapter 1 doesn't flow into chapter 2.  Chapter 2 looks to be part of the Edomite tradition that Moses received from Jethro.  Chapter 1 looks to be a poem that's been affixed to the front of the book, of uncertain derivation.
Yes
I don't know the age of the earth, but I know it's older than 100,000 years.

And all the "begets" in the Bible don't matter one whit to me.  The teaching OF JESUS is that genealogies don't matter.  We know Jesus paternity... not because of genealogies, but because of behavior... He healed the sick, raised the dead, returned the scattered remnant of Israel, and judged Judah... what Father has done those things..? that's God.

Yeah, that's a poem.  Not a scientific accounting of creation.

Jarrod,

LOL,

Science cannot do an adequate accounting of creation. That is the problem.

Earth may well be over 100,000 years.

And the first human type beings The Neanderthals, are said to be 40,000
approx.

I do not necessarily disagree with either.

Its just a shame that "man" ( no pointing of fingers) messed up getting Gen 1 and 2 quasi-organized.

Gen 2:4 I agree should be in Gen 1

lxx states 4 This the book of the generation of heaven and earth, when they were made, in the day in which the Lord God made the heaven and the earth,

Peshitta says
4These are the generations of Heaven and of Earth when they were created, in the day that LORD JEHOVAH God made the Heavens and Earth,

Jimmy, too

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Not all say generation(s) but enough to know that 144 hours does not a generation make.

I digress.

I agree with your break suggestion between the two chapters.

Makes much more sense for my personal beliefs that Adam was NOT the first man God created.