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RB,

How can the answer be apostate Christianity when the whole world wonders, and follows after the beast? We know there are many religious groups and atheists who have absolutely no interest in any religion which calls itself Christianity. And then many others actually hate anything labeled "Christian". It just doesn't seem to fit.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 16:43:15
RB,

How can the answer be apostate Christianity when the whole world wonders, and follows after the beast?

Indeed, and what would apostate Christianity have to do with a lion, bear and leopard?
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/could-the-mark-of-the-beast-be-a-prophecy-that-is-already-fulfilled-by-islam/

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 16:43:15We know there are many religious groups and atheists who have absolutely no interest in any religion which calls itself Christianity. And then many others actually hate anything labeled "Christian". It just doesn't seem to fit.

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 06:24:45


You may not be aware of this but your immediate audience hermeneutic was introduced by 17th century Roman church Jesuit Luis del Alcázar in a counter-reformation effort.

Not sure about this but I'm pretty simple.. I just read Rev. knowing it was actually written to people suffering in the same tribulation that John was. This would have been a comfort to them, wouldn't it? The book comes with a blessing for those who hear it, but it sounds like you are saying it wasn't written first to them.

Are you saying that they would not have been able to recognize the beast of whom John wrote by calculating his number?

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 20:09:35

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 06:24:45

You may not be aware of this but your immediate audience hermeneutic was introduced by 17th century Roman church Jesuit Luis del Alcázar in a counter-reformation effort.

Not sure about this but I'm pretty simple.. I just read Rev. knowing it was actually written to people suffering in the same tribulation that John was.

Even Jesuit Alcazar knew better when he penned the hermeneutic in which you join him. His effort was an attempt to fool the Reformers, however they weren't fooled. Additionally, your post seems to be written from the perspective of someone in the U.S. sittin' back comfy in his lazy boy chair, who hasn't bothered to avail himself of information as to how horrifically our brothers and sisters are being persecuted and slaughtered around much of the world today. Visit sites like Persecution.org, The Clarion Project or Bare Naked Islam (for a cruder presentation) to help yourself get up to speed.

From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million."
"And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizable Muslim populations."

Scripture was written for all, but in particular, to God's people. I understand that I am my brother John's companion in the tribulation and in the kingdom of Jesus Christ, just as those that Jesus was speaking to were. Perhaps you don't count yourself among those of us in the kingdom of Jesus Christ, but instead understand that habitation was available only to those few men Jesus was speaking to.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why not try looking through the perspective of an ethnographic hermeneutic, at the geographical area of the prophet John's whole "world". Try to see the area of the "world" that John was familiar with, as it stands today:



So where in John's "world" would a Christian like to live today? Where on this map would a Christian be comfortable proclaiming the Gospel on the street, or what Muhammad's orthodox followers would consider doing mischief in the land:

Surah 5:33 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.



Again:
world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 20:09:35This would have been a comfort to them, wouldn't it? The book comes with a blessing for those who hear it, but it sounds like you are saying it wasn't written first to them.

How on earth could you conclude that I or anybody else would be saying something like that, when they are the very ones that Jesus spoke the words to first, that were recorded for the edification of the rest of the kingdom of Jesus Christ unto today?

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 20:09:35Are you saying that they would not have been able to recognize the beast of whom John wrote by calculating his number?

Bible prophecy was not a series of news reports of current events as observed by the author. Bible prophecy was inspired in those that were chosen to dream/envision it and record it, who themselves generally had no idea as to what the figures in the figurative language they were recording were all about. While sometimes including current or past events, the purpose of prophecy was to detail future events in advance, so that after they were fulfilled people could more easily believe. Proof of God. But it's reserved for Christ's bond servants to understand, rather than those obstinately marching around under the banner of a doctrine of men, defending something that is not well supported by history, scripture and consideration of the views of those that came before us, let alone present day reality.

Matthew Henry: "Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe."


So what do you believe the "beast" of Rev 13 was, and what does your beast have to do with a leopard, bear and lion?

Do you believe the kingdom of Jesus Christ was limited to include only some of those that lived in the first century?

Red, a question. I'm not speaking from revelation myself, but wouldn't it make more sense for apostate Christianity to be the harlot that rides the beast? AC has the blood of the Saints on her hands (Catholicism and Protestants both do), and rebellious Israel was typically equated to. Whore seeking the... well let's just say God gets creative and harsh in what He describes. Even the Proverbs speaks of an adulterous woman, whom His people is to avoid, that forgets the Friend of her youth, and forsaken the covenant of her God. She even has one of the clearest descriptions of who she is.
  ​I have come to the brink of utter ruin,
  in the midst of the gathered assembly.

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 05:08:33
Additionally, your post seems to be written from the perspective of someone in the U.S. sittin' back comfy in his lazy boy chair, who hasn't bothered to avail himself of information as to how horrifically our brothers and sisters are being persecuted and slaughtered around much of the world today. Visit sites like Persecution.org, The Clarion Project or Bare Naked Islam (for a cruder presentation) to help yourself get up to speed.


How on earth could you conclude that I or anybody else would be saying something like that, when they are the very ones that Jesus spoke the words to first, that were recorded for the edification of the rest of the kingdom of Jesus Christ unto today?

First, my apologies for misunderstanding you. I thought you were saying that the words of John weren't written for his immediate audience when you mentioned that the "immediate audience hermeneutic" wasn't introduced until the 17th century. I thought that was ridiculous, but I see now what you are saying.

Second, I am well aware of the suffering going on around the world, one would have to bury their head in the sand to be ignorant of it, and especially when it comes to Islam's war against Christians. There will always be tribulation in the world, evil men will always kill and destroy, I just lean towards what some call the Great Tribulation taking place during the time of Herod's temple, not another.
 
I have asked someone to explain to me how you can come up with any other time frame for that tribulation (from Matthew 24 and Luke 21) when the coming desolation Jesus spoke of referred specifically to that temple. I have not received an answer to that yet.

Quote
So what do you believe the "beast" of Rev 13 was, and what does your beast have to do with a leopard, bear and lion?

Do you believe the kingdom of Jesus Christ was limited to include only some of those that lived in the first century?

I am not totally convinced it was Nero, but the fact that his name both counted to 666 and 616 (found in a few manuscripts) intrigues me. I'm not sure about the leopard, lion and bear except to say that in Hosea 13:7 the LORD says he will be unto them as a lion and as a leopard... so perhaps these terms are meant to show how destructive the beast would be? Again, I am just not sure.

No, I do not believe the kingdom was limited to first century believers. Biblically, the kingdom of God consists of all who are born again through faith in Jesus.

Nero's name does equal 666 in the Roman numerals. Funny enough, Vicar Filie Dei (might have spelt that wrong), the title of the Pope meaning Vicar of the Son of God, also equals to 666 in the latin numerals. Both has done tremendous jobs in persecuting and torturing God's people. I'm not sure exactly about the calculation of the Beast's name, but considering the number has been associated with great persecution of Israel, I would call that a sign at least.

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 21:28:29
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast:for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You guys need to pull your head out of the sand and try a web search like - muhammad 666

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 05:08:33
Additionally, your post seems to be written from the perspective of someone in the U.S. sittin' back comfy in his lazy boy chair, who hasn't bothered to avail himself of information as to how horrifically our brothers and sisters are being persecuted and slaughtered around much of the world today. Visit sites like Persecution.org, The Clarion Project or Bare Naked Islam (for a cruder presentation) to help yourself get up to speed.


How on earth could you conclude that I or anybody else would be saying something like that, when they are the very ones that Jesus spoke the words to first, that were recorded for the edification of the rest of the kingdom of Jesus Christ unto today?

First, my apologies for misunderstanding you. I thought you were saying that the words of John weren't written for his immediate audience when you mentioned that the "immediate audience hermeneutic" wasn't introduced until the 17th century. I thought that was ridiculous, but I see now what you are saying.

The Wikipedia article on Alcazar further clarifies Alcazar's introduction of the immediate audience only type hermeneutic under the "works" section.
His effort wasn't to put forth an effort toward sound exegesis of scripture, but rather to pen a doctrine that might divert the Reformer's attention away, from their pegging the Roman church and/or Pope and/or papacy as "The" "Antichrist". He penned it just decades after Jesuit Francisco Ribera's attempt to do the same, by diverting the Reformers attention to some future someday with his futurist doctrine, rather than focused on the Roman church.
The Reformers didn't buy into either of the Jesuit's devices. Yet both approaches began to come into vogue during the 19th century, and were popularized during the 20th, perhaps just as prophesied:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I think that is what struck the church so blind in regard to Islam's role in bible prophecy, now that the mortal wound of the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast has been healed by western wealth transfer in oil purchase and arms supply. Financing today's Second Islamic Jihad in the image of the First Islamic Jihad. Jihad is the pinnacle of worship in Islam.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33Second, I am well aware of the suffering going on around the world, one would have to bury their head in the sand to be ignorant of it, and especially when it comes to Islam's war against Christians. There will always be tribulation in the world, evil men will always kill and destroy, I just lean towards what some call the Great Tribulation taking place during the time of Herod's temple, not another.

And I tend to lean toward that greater period of tribulation, during the tribulation, as being the first half of the 20th century and the 60-70 million killed in WW2 alone, along with the genocide of 8 million Jews.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33I have asked someone to explain to me how you can come up with any other time frame for that tribulation (from Matthew 24 and Luke 21) when the coming desolation Jesus spoke of referred specifically to that temple.

But is it the temple that is desolated? I believe God's prophetic symbol sits in the "holy place" - God's footstool - near where the temple once stood, but it is Jerusalem that becomes desolated. No Christian can deny that the Dome of the Rock is an abomination, with the founding verses as well as being immortalized in mosaic around the eves "Far be it from Allah's transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...

Jerusalem was compassed by armies in 70 AD, and on several occasions after, including 132, 639, 1099, 1187, 1948, 1967.
In 70AD Jerusalem was certainly physically decimated, and a million or so Jews were whacked, but Christians escaped in advance and were saved, some suggest because of the very verses you reference. But the Roman gentiles came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later illustrating that the "times of the gentiles" in Jerusalem could hardly be considered as having been fulfilled in 70 AD. During the 6th century when Caliph Omar ushered in the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic empire, he was met by Bishop Sophronius, of a church that was alive and well.

Islam's arrival began a 1200 year long physical as well as spiritual desolation of Jerusalem - of the land of milk and honey - that by the beginning of the 19th century had rendered Israel an utterly desolate, denuded, deforested, depopulated desert wasteland.
Please web search the mathematical precision of prophecy, and consider how this might be further confirmed through the day-year language of prophecy, as applied to by both Daniel and John's dreams and vision. Also by Daniel's "times" problems:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'a-time-times-and-an-half'-and-the-'time-of-the-end'/

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33I have not received an answer to that yet.

Quote
So what do you believe the "beast" of Rev 13 was, and what does your beast have to do with a leopard, bear and lion?

Do you believe the kingdom of Jesus Christ was limited to include only some of those that lived in the first century?

I am not totally convinced it was Nero, but the fact that his name both counted to 666 and 616 (found in a few manuscripts) intrigues me. I'm not sure about the leopard, lion and bear except to say that in Hosea 13:7 the LORD says he will be unto them as a lion and as a leopard... so perhaps these terms are meant to show how destructive the beast would be? Again, I am just not sure.

I don't believe the Lord obscures the identity of this central figure of Revelation, and final foe of God's people, now that we may be in this "time of the end". How does the prophet Daniel define the term "beast" in the context of the figurative language of his prophetic dream? Please set your preconceived notions aside for a moment and visit the post in the thread at this link, and judge as to whether you think it appears to be hermeneutically sound:
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-beast-revelation/msg1054999136/#msg1054999136

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 15, 2015 - 18:49:33No, I do not believe the kingdom was limited to first century believers. Biblically, the kingdom of God consists of all who are born again through faith in Jesus.

His kingdom that is not of this world that was ushered in during the 1st century, before some standing in that particular immediate audience that He was speaking to, tasted of death.

Quote from: LaSpino3 on Sat Jul 16, 2011 - 06:18:33
Michael, Your article is way to long, and covers to much ground to respond to. Question, are these your thoughts, or are you quoting the thoughts of another person?

But I do have one question for you.

You wrote, "This would further the idea that he (Satan) is now in heaven."

Phil asks, "What heaven are you speaking of? Is it the heavens above the earth, or before the throne of God? Also how did you Scripturally come to that conclusion?"

Phil LaSpino

Probably not even his words. Most likely a cut and paste job from some website somewhere. But you are correct, posts should be short and to the point.

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:56:21So how does scripture interpret apostate Christianity as having something to do with a leopard, bear and lion? I would appreciate very much if you begin your reply by answering that question.

I will start here, even though, it is very hard to start in the book of Revelation, that is filled with highly symbolical language that depends totally on the scriptures overall to interpret John's writings. The Revelation of Jesus Christ was given last for good reasons. Most students of the scriptures understand the gradual revelation of truth concerning most main doctrines that are contained in the true religion/faith of Jesus Christ~many of these doctrine are used freely in John's Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him. From Genesis to Revelation a wise student of the scriptures gather scriptures that are linked together concerning a particular subject, so when they come to Revelation, they should understand how John used certain phrases based upon John's understanding of truth of other scriptures, when such words were used throughout God's word. Revelation does not explain Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21:2 Thessalonian 2; 2 Timothy 3:1-4:5; 1st John 2; etc., etc.  But, these and many others act as a schoolmaster, instructing our understanding on Revelation~ that should be a given, and understood without any controversy. Whatever position, or, understanding one puts forth, it must be in agreement with Daniel's abomination that maketh desolate; Jesus' Olivet discourse, that he made sure was his last great warning before departing from this world back to the Father; Paul's man of sin; and John's Antichrist~which are all one and the same. If one's understanding of Revelation is so much different from those all important scriptures, then one can rest assure that what they are hearing is false, and not of God. We must hold on to what we know is the truth from clear and easier scriptures, before running off and embracing highly symbolical teaching, without any support from the clearer and easier  scriptures.  When one does have a solid understanding of other scriptures, then Revelation will come to one's understanding~and NOT before then.  One never starts at the end and work themselves back to the beginning, but vice versa.

A few things before starting. Whatever is taught in Revelation 13, is also the same truth taught in Revelation 17,18~just from a different view, but the same doctrine, each section adding something the other section does not have~I think most understand this truth. The beast of Revelation 13 is no other than Mystery Babylon being revealed as the mystery of iniquity workings under the power of the Devil/Dragon, as God's enemy, and his people. Mystery Babylon comes together as "ONE" against God and the saints~both the religious part of Babylon and the secular world, even though the secular world turns against ALL religion just before Christ's coming.  So, Babylon is the beast, and the beast is Mystery Babylon. It's the great city built by the Devil himself to contend against Zion~ God's holy chosen seed through Jesus Christ.  They (beast and mystery Babylon) are one and the same.

QuoteRevelation 14:8-11~And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."[/size

These scriptures prove that Mystery Babylon and the beast are one and the same. Also, Mystery Babylon/beast have been here from the very beginning, since Cain, way before Muhammad and all other false prophets that came afterwards. The beast was not born 570 A.D. but at the day Adam and Eve sinned, the mystery of iniquity enter into this world through one man~Adam. Anyone who labors to limit the beast to Islam and the false prophet to one man named Muḥammad ibn `Abd Allāh; or any other single man; are delusional, at best, and down right a false prophet themselves at worst. We would like to think that they are just deceived, but mean well, but I will leave that to God to judge, not me. Mystery Babylon/beast has many different sects of religions, each claiming to be of God, and all in agreement against the very elect, chosen out of all nations under heaven.

Later...   

You see, my friend, if you hadn't engaged in so much pompous bluster as in the other thread.....

Quote from: RB on Tue Nov 17, 2015 - 05:21:13You come here and teach that the beast of Revelation is the Islamic religion, which you will never be able to prove with using only the scriptures.

.....and I sincerely hope you didn't intend to use the word "prove" when you wrote in your prior post above: "These scriptures prove that Mystery Babylon and the beast are one and the same.", because anybody wishing that the figurative language of a prophetic dream  "proves" their view, rather than believing it offered the most reasonable exegesis they arrived at to date, has put themselves at a dire disadvantage in regard to receiving any further understanding regarding the book of Revelation. The opposite attitude to that of a bond servant that the book of Revelation was written to. It seems you may wish that perhaps the whole subject of Revelation were only about the apostate church, rather than false worship being limited to the great whore and/or mystery Babylon and also other passages like Thess "falling away". And while I also  appreciate the bifidic and chiasmic nature of the book of Revelation (also Daniel and others), I don't believe it is somewhat repetitive, in order to be redundant. My understanding is that the first beast of Revelation tends to focus more on the physical and geographical history of mankind, while the scarlet beast focuses more on the spiritual condition of mankind.

Do you see what happened when you tried to force Revelation 13:2 into your preconceived notions? Where did the bear and leopard go? So in spite of your bluster and accusation directed at me for not using scripture to exegete scripture, you yet again failed to explain, what apostate Christianity has to do with a bear and leopard. Why make it so hard on yourself by going about it backwards? When you begin with the verse in Revelation 13, and seek out an adjacent hermeneutic, we find Daniel and John use 3 of the very same figures, and both in the context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream/vision. Why not try to go with it?

If you really believe that your effort to insert your preconceived notion, resulted a more hermeneutically sound exegesis than the one quoted below, please quote that explanation and explain just how and why.
Let alone that the following exegesis would seem to be further supported by John's 8 kings/beasts.

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 15:18:02Daniel defines the term "beast", and he does it in the same context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream, that even includes 3 of the very same figures. So let's let scripture define and explain it:

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth.....

There is considerable agreement among Jewish and Christian scholars that the kingdoms represented by Daniel's lion, bear and leopard, are the successive ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, followed by the fourth "terrible" beast, that is understood to be the Roman Empire. Now consider:

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (Daniel also ascribes the masculine gender to his kingdom "beasts")

So John paints a picture of a composite beast using the same figures that Daniel did. What countries occupy the seats of those ancient kingdoms today?

Babylon = Iraq
Medo-Persia = Iran
ancient Greece = Syria-Lebanon

While these countries have some theological and political differences, they are all perfectly united through the power of the spirit of antichrist, and all follow THE false prophet Muhammad. We can see the power that Satan gave Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast exercised, every day in the news, yet even some Christian folks are even today, too blind to see it.

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Thu Nov 19, 2015 - 18:54:14You see, my friend, if you hadn't engaged in so much pompous bluster as in the other thread.....

Peter you are wise, I have not on purpose, reason being, is that I'am trying to speak carefully, without shooting from the hip, just to be posting an answer back to you. My answers to you is just as you said to me: for the benefits of others, not for you, since you are looking at it more from being a Jews (which is what I got from reading your posts) and your people suffering the most from the Anti-Christian kingdom of the Islamic Countries that surrounds you and your people, or at least your people. To our Christian brothers who are Jews, we fully agree that the they are indeed part of the beast's false religions, just as the Mormons are with their false prophet Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants; and Charles Taze Russell who started the Jehovah Witnesses and their New world translation. Cults have their founders and their own "bibles or, seemly source of their words from God, just as the blinded Muslims do for them, just that they have been here much longer, but less than some of the woman who rode the scarlet coloured beast, (Revelation 13) which had seven heads and ten horns, the very same as the beast of chapter thirteen, even though you just said:

Quote I don't believe it is somewhat repetitive, in order to be redundant

It is not sir, in order to be redundant, but to give God's faithful saints a complete knowledge of Mystery Babylon, the great city headed up by the Dragon in opposition to God and his chosen seed, from every nation under heaven, Jews and Gentiles. You do with Islam and Muhammad, just as many do with Catholicism and the Popes' by limiting the the whore of Revelation to a particular cult  of Mystery Babylon~when once a person does that, then he has left most of Babylon's false worship out of the big picture, and truly are making them not part of the false prophets that shall fill this earth in the latter days of the last day~ per Christ from Matthew 24; Paul from 2nd Thess 2; and John from 1st John 2; and Revelation; etc. So, in essence, many are being used to distract people away from other cults who are preaching another jesus, and truly embracing another gospel, which is just as dangerous as any racial sect professing to worship God. At least with the racial group, they generally enter into conflict with the powers that be, whereas, others just freely have access to the minds of most who are willing to hear them out, so that they can deceived them so much better, than the racial ones can.

So yes, I am being slow and careful, with as much detail as possible, without being too long. I will not write much since I'm heading to go out of town, but will some, the Lord willing, where I am able to do so.   

Quote from: RB on Fri Nov 20, 2015 - 04:36:53So yes, I am being slow and careful, with as much detail as possible, without being too long.

Yet with all those words still failing to answer what apostate Christianity has to do with a leopard and bear.

:

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Fri Nov 20, 2015 - 07:01:53

QuoteYet with all those words still failing to answer what apostate Christianity has to do with a leopard and bear.

Peter, you will not provoke me to move at your desired pace, but I will do it at my own pace. Sir, I found your site and have glanced over some of your beliefs, which is nothing more than "mixture of the dual covenant doctrine with historicism". Thus it is a bastardised form of dispensationalism without the pre-trib rapture doctrine".......... as one good brother has well said, concerning your position and others like you, namely one: Ellis Skolfield. 

Quote apostate Christianity

Is without question the whole theme of John's writings, picking up just where Christ, and Paul left off concerning apostate Christianity, as they were leaving this world..

Quote2nd Timothy 3:1-7~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I know this and others do as well, yet you are blinded as to the truth of this. Islam is only part of the big picture of last day prophecy, yet they are not THE picture as you desire for others to believe, leaving them prime subjects to be deceived by the religious whore of Mystery Babylon.

Quote2nd Timothy 4:2-4~"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Paul spoke of enemies WITHIN the professing camp of the saints, not of those outside! Wheat and tares grow TOGETHER, not apart from each others!  So, do you believe that professing Christendom will do what as this world comes to its end? But, you need not to answer that as of yet, until I am finished, then you can give it your best effort of disproving what I will give you. 

Pete: "Jerusalem was compassed by armies in 70 AD, and on several occasions after, including 132, 639, 1099, 1187, 1948, 1967.
In 70AD Jerusalem was certainly physically decimated, and a million or so Jews were whacked, but Christians escaped in advance and were saved, some suggest because of the very verses you reference. But the Roman gentiles came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later illustrating that the "times of the gentiles."

Meaning the Jewish dispensation was gone. The kingdom that would "stand forever" (Daniel 2: 44) came at Pentecost (with power). This Messianic kingdom was established with the preaching of the Gospel. Note Peter's message as the first gospel preaching (Acts 2)
Does his message sound like Schofield's, Lindsay or Gomer Powell's?

Was this Kingdom set up in the days of the Roman empire as found in Daniel 2? The legs of "iron" (Da.2)? are they not the might of Rome"?
Did not Rome dominate the world when Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
Please note that no world empire conquered Rome; and was replaced by no world empire, it fell from within. Rome declined as it absorbed Germanic tribes and became the "feet of clay" of Daniel 2: 41-43.

Is the church the "Messianic kingdom" of Daniel 2:44 which Jesus speaks in Matthew 16:15ff?
Speaking with Peter, Jesus speaks of the church and kingdom synonymously. Christ claimed this promise for Himself when He came  (Lk. 1:31-33; Ma. 11:2-6).

During Jesus' public ministry He spoke of the Kingdom being "at hand." (Ma. 3:1-2; 4:17; Mk. 1:14,15).
Kingdom preaching characterized the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles (Ma. 4:23; 9:35; Mk, 1:14; Acts 8:12; 15:13-18; 28:23).

Today's Zionist movement and the followers of Mohammad, etc., have had the same opportunity to "seek the kingdom of God" as anyone else since Peter opened the door of the kingdom at Pentecost; but most have chosen not to follow. They seek after signs, follow false preachers who report that God is speaking via revelation to them, and close their ears to the gospel as preached in the day's of the Apostles.

I have on my book shelves, old prophecy books, out of print, pitiful, mildewed monuments to dead visions---gravestones for prophecy "scholars" long since buried in the shroud of misbegotten charts, locked in the tomb of eschatological disgrace by their own "keys."

I have copied some of the "charts" and "keys" of many who participate on this forum to add to my collection. I pray the Lord doesn't hold it against me----but the next generation should be aware of the false prophets, and men who have exegesis text in a wind storm from this generation....:)

Your post is the fruit of unrighteous judgment, in conjunction with ignoring my prior replies to you.

Quote from: Tyler on Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58
Pete: "Jerusalem was compassed by armies in 70 AD, and on several occasions after, including 132, 639, 1099, 1187, 1948, 1967.
In 70AD Jerusalem was certainly physically decimated, and a million or so Jews were whacked, but Christians escaped in advance and were saved, some suggest because of the very verses you reference. But the Roman gentiles came back to whack another half million Jews less than 70 years later illustrating that the "times of the gentiles."

Meaning the Jewish dispensation was gone. The kingdom that would "stand forever" (Daniel 2: 44) came at Pentecost (with power). This Messianic kingdom was established with the preaching of the Gospel. Note Peter's message as the first gospel preaching (Acts 2)

I agree.

Quote from: Tyler on Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58
Does his message sound like Schofield's, Lindsay or Gomer Powell's?

Nor like my own.

Quote from: Tyler on Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58Was this Kingdom set up in the days of the Roman empire as found in Daniel 2? The legs of "iron" (Da.2)? are they not the might of Rome"?
Did not Rome dominate the world when Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
Please note that no world empire conquered Rome; and was replaced by no world empire, it fell from within. Rome declined as it absorbed Germanic tribes and became the "feet of clay" of Daniel 2: 41-43.

Is the church the "Messianic kingdom" of Daniel 2:44 which Jesus speaks in Matthew 16:15ff?
Speaking with Peter, Jesus speaks of the church and kingdom synonymously. Christ claimed this promise for Himself when He came  (Lk. 1:31-33; Ma. 11:2-6).

During Jesus' public ministry He spoke of the Kingdom being "at hand." (Ma. 3:1-2; 4:17; Mk. 1:14,15).

Also proclaiming:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Quote from: Tyler on Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58
Kingdom preaching characterized the ministry of Jesus and the Apostles (Ma. 4:23; 9:35; Mk, 1:14; Acts 8:12; 15:13-18; 28:23).

Today's Zionist movement and the followers of Mohammad, etc., have had the same opportunity to "seek the kingdom of God" as anyone else ......

Spoken as God Himself, even though the scriptures indicate that some remained blinded by God Himself, decades after the cross.

Quote from: Tyler on Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58...... since Peter opened the door of the kingdom at Pentecost; but most have chosen not to follow. They seek after signs, follow false preachers who report that God is speaking via revelation to them, and close their ears to the gospel as preached in the day's of the Apostles.

No doubt some Jews have closed their own ears to the gospel. But who do the scriptures indicate may have closed some faithful Jew's ears to the Gospel?

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Quote from: Tyler on Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58I have on my book shelves, old prophecy books, out of print, pitiful, mildewed monuments to dead visions---gravestones for prophecy "scholars" long since buried in the shroud of misbegotten charts, locked in the tomb of eschatological disgrace by their own "keys."

Again, Tyler, if you want to argue against futurism, go find a futurist to argue with. I used to be a futurist too. Only rather than jump from the frying pan of futurism and into the fire of preterism, I approach bible prophecy in the church tradition of amillennial historicism.

Quote from: Tyler on Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:01:58I have copied some of the "charts" and "keys" of many who participate on this forum to add to my collection. I pray the Lord doesn't hold it against me----but the next generation should be aware of the false prophets, and men who have exegesis text in a wind storm from this generation....:)

So let me inquire of you Tyler. Do you think it a mere coincidence that included among the fruit of the anti-Zionist tree is, a near unanimity of Muslims, as well as Nazis, skinheads, white supremacists, the former Soviet communists, Louis Farrakan and the "Nation of Islam", George Soros and his Center for American Progress and anti-Semites of all stripes?
Is it a simple coincidence that the anti-Zionist fruit also includes some self-proclaimed Christians who reject that the return of Jews to their land is of the Lord, such as Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke and the KKK, the "Christian Identity" movement and Jeremiah Wright?

          Here's something you might consider relevant to this subject.  The term "Beast" as it is used biblically has several different connotations.  In Daniel 7:7, 7:23 it refers to "empires", "governments", "kingdoms" ect.  It seems to be used similarly in the Revelation prophecy, (Rev.13, 17).  Not referring to a singular person.  Even the Mark of the Beast (Rev.13:18) could refer to a succession of six men representing three godless ideologies 666, rather than one single individual. 

          In fact, I find the popular theory the number 666 represents some kind of secret code or cipher that can be decrypted to reveal one individual name highly improbable.  The assumption of this theory is, that the key to this code was either accidentally lost some where in antiquity or deliberately omitted from the text in order to escape persecution.  I find that apologetic description pretty hard to swallow.  According to Scripture, (Rev.1:1 and 22:10) nothing in the Revelation is supposed to be concealed or "Sealed up, for the time is at hand".   So the whole idea of a secret code or cipher is completely unscriptural.

          The passage of Rev.13:18 says all the reader need employ is wisdom, some understanding and be able to count (presumably simple math).  It doesn't say anything about anyone needing a degree in cryptology.  Yes.  The ancients all knew about codes and ciphers and used them extensively for the same reason we do today.  Those ancient codes were quite rudimentary and simple compared to the sophisticated incryption used today.  It would take a modern computer incryption program about 10 seconds to break a first century code.   Nor do I see how a code or cipher could be "universally" recognized and understood by everyone on the planet.  Whereas history and simple math are both languages universally understood.   Historic dates and information don't change with language.  Columbus sailed for the New World in 1492.  Doesn't matter whether you look it up in a Chinese or German encyclopedia.  The information is going to be the same.  1+1 = 2,  is the same in Portuguese or French or any other tongue. 

           Hope this helps you out with your interpretational work.  It was very helpful to me.

          As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't believe the Mark of the Beast (Rev.13:18) represents some kind of secret code that can be deciphered.  Instead I believe it represents a kind of "abbreviation" of historical and prophetic information.  Anyway here is my interpretation of the meaning of the number 666.  I assure you it is "original" work of my own and was not "lifted" or reproduced from any other source.  Since it's not copyrighted  either, you're welcome to reproduce it or share it however you choose.  So let's start counting the number of the beast. 

          During the history of the Soviet Union and until its' collapse in 1991 a total of six men served as general secretary and dictator of the U.S.S.R.  Their names are Stalin, Kruschev, Breshnev, Chernenko, Andropov and Gorbachev.  The first SIX (representing Stalinist ideology).   Please before anyone claims I left out the name V.I. Lenin, be aware Lenin was the father of the Bolshevik Revolution, and he was already dead and buried when Stalin wrote the Soviet Constitution.  In fact some historians say "Stalinism" was a betrayal of Leninism.

          During the same time period, six people served as president of the People's Republic of China (Red China).  Their names are Mao Tze Tung, Zhu de, Qingling, Ye Jianying, Li Xiannian and Yang Shang Kun.  The second SIX representing the ideology of Moaism. 

          During the same period of history the Vatican State was ruled by SIX Popes.  Their names are Pope Pius XI, Pope Pius XII, Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope Paul I and Pope John Paul II.  The third SIX representing the ideology of Marianism (The Worship of the Virgin Mary).

          There you have THREE godless ideological movements, each occurring contemporaneously during the same historic period, each consisting of a succession of SIX leaders.   In other words, 666, The name and the number of the beast. 

         Knowing this "key" information allows for the correct and accurate interpretation of the End Time Prophecies of the Book of Daniel and the Revelation.   I'll show you what I mean.   "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have RECEIVED NO KINGDOM YET; but receive power as kings ONE HOUR with the beast" (Rev. 17:12).

          What sort of king has received no legitimate kingdom, but exercises all the power of a king ?  Obviously a dictator or a usurper.  Has such a beast system of ten kingdoms ever occurred in recent history ?  Absolutely yes, it has.   In March 1947 president Truman issued his "Policy of Containment" against Stalinism as the Iron Curtain fell across Eastern Europe.  The East Bloc (Beast of the Cold War era) consisted of Ten Kingdoms.  NINE Stalinist dictatorships in the countries of the U.S.S.R (which includes the Baltic States that voluntarily joined the Soviet Union and became Republics of the U.S.S.R.in 1941), East Germany, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Albania.  The TENTH kingdom of the East Bloc consisting of the Roman Catholic population of Eastern Europe representing the Vatican State, (The "miry clay" of Daniel 2:43 which is identified as "infirm spiritual belief" In Psalms 40:4).  Ten Kingdoms all together.

          What does the Prophecy of Revelation 17:12 mean when it says these ten kings have power with the beast for ONE HOUR ?  Obviously the Scripture isn't talking about a literal hour of sixty minutes.  That would be sort of ridiculous, wouldn't it ?!  What else could this prophetic HOUR represent.  On questions of uncertainty, it's always best to let Scripture interpret Scripture. 

          But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8).

          Apparently God doesn't reckon or perceive time the same way we do.  If according to this passage a 24 hour day (Genesis 1:3-5) equals a thousand years of our time, then all one has to do is divide 24 into 1,000 years to find out what ONE HOUR represents in Prophecy.  The sum you end up with is 41.6, or forty one and a half years (One Hour). 

          Remember, the Cold War era (beast) began in March 1947, or 1947.3.  Add 41.6 (One Hour) to that date and you arrive at 1988.9, or September 1988.  The Headlines for Time Magazine for that date read, "EASTERN EUROPE ERUPTS IN AN ARC OF UNREST AS YOUNG ACTIVISTS DEMAND REFORM".  The story reports the beginning of the Velvet Revolution in Poland and the beginning of the end of the East Bloc and the Cold War era. 

          That's right.  Bible Prophecy accurately predicted the exact month and year of the beginning of the End of the Cold War era and the coming collapse of the Soviet empire in Eastern Europe three years later in 1991.   Pretty amazing stuff, huh ?   And what does Bible Prophecy say happens next ?  Well let's take a look, shall we ?

          "For God hath put it in their hearts to fulfill his will. and to agree, and GIVE THEIR KINGDOM unto the beast, until the word's of God shall be fulfilled" (Revelation 17:17).

          The U.S.S.R (Soviet Union), East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia NO LONGER EXIST AS COUNTRIES (Kingdoms).  The Stalinist regimes of Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Albania and Romania have all been toppled.  Only the Vatican State remains to fulfill a special fate God has in store for that kingdom in the Last Days,  "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Revelation 18:8).

          I could also point to many prophecies in the Book of Daniel about the "Latter Kingdom of Man" that corroborate this interpretation completely.  Daniel says THREE of these ten kingdoms will be subdued, (Dan.7:24).  East Germany rebelled against Soviet occupation and was subdued by Soviet forces in 1948.  Czechoslovakia and Hungary both also rebelled against the Soviets and were subdued by Warsaw Pact forces.  Daniel also states THREE of these ten kingdoms will be "plucked up by their roots" (Daniel 7:8).  Yugoslavia and Albania withdrew from the Warsaw Pact.  As did East Germany, which reunited with West Germany before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. 

          I'll go on to explain the symbolism of the two feet and ten toes of the "partly strong and partly broken " empire Daniel describes (Dan.2:42).  The symbolism obviously portrays a "divided" empire.  The toes of the imagry representing FIVE kingdoms, each divided into two separate spheres of influence.  Historically FIVE of the Ten kingdoms of the East Bloc were solidly entrenched and remained part of the East Bloc until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.  The Soviet Union, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland and the Roman Catholic population of eastern Europe representing the Vatican State.  While Yugoslavia and Albania withdrew from the Soviet Bloc and East Germany reunited with West Germany before the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.  Both Czechoslovakia and Hungary rebelled and had to be subdued by the Warsaw Pact.  FIVE kingdoms NOT SO SOLIDLY entrenched in the East Bloc.

          What's the odds of all this recent history exactly mirroring the End Time Prophecies of the Bible being a coincidence or happening by accident?  About the same mathematical probability as someone winning the Power Ball Lottery four time in a row.  In other words, "IT CAN"T BE A COINCIDENCE" !   It is concrete proof End Time Bible Prophecy is REAL. 

          Well I promised to keep it short and only give you the "Readers Digest" condensed version of what I know about End Time Prophecy.  I could go on and explain the meaning of much more Revelation Prophecy, some of which relates to historic events that have taken place more recently and will take place in the immediate future, but I've run out of time on this library computer for today.  I will be posting more Topic threads in the coming days.

                                                                                                   

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46
The Beast Revelation

This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

No, Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation is not dedicated to all Christians.

It, like all of the apparent prophecies of the Book of Revelation, is intended for only the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3 and only the dominant Witness of Rev. 11:3, at that.

End of story.

Quote from: Star of David on Tue Dec 22, 2015 - 18:08:18

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46
The Beast Revelation

This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

No, Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation is not dedicated to all Christians.

It, like all of the apparent prophecies of the Book of Revelation, is intended for only the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3 and only the dominant Witness of Rev. 11:3, at that.

End of story.

Wrong.  The Book of Revelation is not for you and you alone.  End of story.

Quote from: Star of David on Tue Dec 22, 2015 - 18:08:18

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46
The Beast Revelation

This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

No, Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelation is not dedicated to all Christians.

It, like all of the apparent prophecies of the Book of Revelation, is intended for only the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3 and only the dominant Witness of Rev. 11:3, at that.

End of story.

First of all you launched off on a false premise. Read what you quoted again. He said "This letter", referring to what he wrote in the OP, being dedicated to all Christians.
Secondly, the book of Revelation was written to Christ's bondservants. I would submit that may not include those Christians that parade around with indoctrination-induced certainty in hand, who then approach the book of Revelation by trying to wring it through that filter of preconceived notion, but that Revelation was written more toward Christ's under rowers.

Quote from: raggthyme13 on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 16:43:15RB, How can the answer be apostate Christianity when the whole world wonders, and follows after the beast? We know there are many religious groups and atheists who have absolutely no interest in any religion which calls itself Christianity. And then many others actually hate anything labeled "Christian". It just doesn't seem to fit.

We shall see if it does or does not fit. I do not believe it will be  problem to prove that it does fit. I will give my time to this thread after I return from Atlanta, Ga. the first part of the week. One of my grandson is being baptized tomorrow, along with a son-in-law, and a daughter, into the faith of Jesus Christ. My daughter was baptized while in college over twenty four years ago, yet wanted to do it again with a clearer and better conscience, than she had at twenty. Allow me to only say this for now~I agree that many religious group and atheists have not any interest in the truth, and that is the very reason why ALL give their strength in serving the beast...but they do it for their own profit, not knowing that they are being used of the devil, which any preterits would have a hard time believing since that believe that Satan was cast in the lake of fire in 70 A.D.!!  Which is absolutely spiritually insane, and a soul that is willingly ignorant of truth~ per Peter in 2nd Peter 3.   

 Does anyone agree with me now, or is my prophecy still on the shelf?

Quote from: michael777 on Fri Sep 20, 2024 - 16:06:24Does anyone agree with me now, or is my prophecy still on the shelf?

Not even Christ or John the writer of Revelation would agree with your interpretation of His book.  Why then should we agree?  Your presentation of the time frame of all these events and the identification of any of the three Beasts in Rev. 13 & 17 is hopelessly snarled.

Any present-day news reports are not the lens through which we are to interpret John's words.    Your "prophecy" was not a match with Revelation back in 2011; neither is it a match in 2024 either, nor in any year to come. 

John told us in Rev. 1:1-3, 1:19, and 22:10 what time frame his book applied to, which tells us that Revelation is a book referring to ancient history by now.  The only verse in it that would apply to our own generation and our future is the sealed-up prophecies in Revelation 10:4 which were not written down by John because those particular sealed-up prophecies were future to John's own first-century generation.   

When you ignore Christ and the author John's own directive as to which time frame Revelation's writings applied, then your interpretive "prophecy" is going to get skewed in the wrong direction entirely.    

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sat Sep 21, 2024 - 09:54:23Not even Christ or John the writer of Revelation would agree with your interpretation of His book.  Why then should we agree?  Your presentation of the time frame of all these events and the identification of any of the three Beasts in Rev. 13 & 17 is hopelessly snarled.

Any present-day news reports are not the lens through which we are to interpret John's words.    Your "prophecy" was not a match with Revelation back in 2011; neither is it a match in 2024 either, nor in any year to come.

John told us in Rev. 1:1-3, 1:19, and 22:10 what time frame his book applied to, which tells us that Revelation is a book referring to ancient history by now.  The only verse in it that would apply to our own generation and our future is the sealed-up prophecies in Revelation 10:4 which were not written down by John because those particular sealed-up prophecies were future to John's own first-century generation. 

When you ignore Christ and the author John's own directive as to which time frame Revelation's writings applied, then your interpretive "prophecy" is going to get skewed in the wrong direction entirely.   

  Preterism is like a virus. I take great comfort that many are immune from this ideology. Its' end result is to install blinders on the people of God. Your blinders will not stop the real issues from happening, but they will cause others who follow your beliefs to stumble along the way. I'm not sure what the consequences are for such a perversion of scripture, but I would not like to be the one promoting this and then have to explain myself to God. I don't believe you represent everyone here. The most boastful are usually the first replies I receive, that hunt my words and then try and take them from the people. Read this verse and see if it pertains to you.

Habakkuk 1
King James Version
1 The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
2 O Lord, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
5 Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days which ye will not believe, though it be told you.

Michael777, why would you think that the Habakkuk 1 prophecy about the coming of the Chaldeans, "that bitter and hasty nation" against God's disobedient people of Israel has any identification with me or with what will happen in our future?  That Babylonian empire of the Chaldeans rose to power and was later destroyed in a single night by Cyrus taking the city, as God predicted in Isaiah, and as Daniel saw come to pass.  What is your point in bringing this up?   

I notice that everyone who claims to despise Preterism never offers a response to the internal language that Revelation itself uses which tells us in what time frame those prophecies were going to be fulfilled.  Revelation 1:1-3, 1:19, and 22:10 are NOT in agreement with you and your manner of interpreting Revelation for our own days.  The scriptures that back up Preterism aren't going to go anywhere, and you ignore these scriptures and others similar to them to your own detriment.     

The Revelation prophecies that were "at hand", and were "about to take place" in John's days were NOT going to be extended some 2,000 years down the road to our own times.   Revelation's visions were not "parables" - John wrote in Revelation 1:1 that they were meant to be understood by his own immediate first-century readers, with the interpreting angel explaining aspects of those visions for God's servants in those days so that they could understand them. 

You are WAAAAAAY too late with your application of Revelation's prophecies, which, as promised, were all fulfilled before John's first-century generation had passed away, with the lone exception of the sealed-up prophecies of Revelation 10:4.   

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sat Sep 21, 2024 - 17:53:26I notice that everyone who claims to despise Preterism never offers a response to the internal language that Revelation itself uses which tells us in what time   

The Revelation prophecies that were "at hand", and were "about to take place" in John's days were NOT going to be extended some 2,000 years down the road to our own times.  Revelation's visions were not "parables" - John wrote in Revelation 1:1 that they were meant to be understood by his own immediate first-century readers, with the interpreting angel explaining aspects of those visions for God's servants in those days so that they could understand them. 
 

That's a false statement. People have been arguing with preterists about their beliefs for years, and giving reasons. You and your people choose not to listen. Now when the facts are smacking you in the face, you still continue to deny them. In the end, I don't care what you believe. You will be set right very soon, and I will be there to see it...

Quote from: michael777 on Sat Sep 21, 2024 - 18:29:07That's a false statement. People have been arguing with preterists about their beliefs for years, and giving reasons. You and your people choose not to listen. Now when the facts are smacking you in the face, you still continue to deny them. In the end, I don't care what you believe. You will be set right very soon, and I will be there to see it...

Those who interpret Revelation as you do are notorious for avoiding the time-relevant statements that scripture employs.  You haven't bothered to address the three references I gave twice already concerning the time frame in which the prophecies of Revelation were said to be fulfilled. 

#1 Revelation 1:1-3
#2 Revelation 1:19
#3 Revelation 22:10

ALL of these stipulate that the timing for the prophecies of Revelation's future events being fulfilled were "at hand", "shortly", and "about to take place" compared to the time John was writing Revelation.
 
Christ also told John that "I am coming quickly", compared to the time when John was writing Revelation.  Preterism takes all these terms of imminence at their face value, when others such as yourself turn themselves into a pretzel trying to twist their interpretations of Revelation by avoiding those simple terms. 

Why do you even make the statement, "You will be set right very soon, and I will be there to see it..." when you don't really believe John, Christ, and all the NT authors when they spoke of the soon appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ in their own generation?  It is hypocritical to speak of something happening "soon" in our own days when you totally disregard the same meaning of the term "soon" as the scriptures used it to describe Christ's return in John's days.   

QuoteROMANISM AND THE REFORMATION
by H. Grattan Guiness

LECTURE 5
INTERPRETATION AND USE OF THESE PROPHECIES IN PRE-REFORMATION TIMES

5. The Fathers held that the Roman empire was the "let," or hindrance, referred to by Paul in 2 Thessalonians, which kept back the manifestation of the "man of sin." This point is of great importance. Paul distinctly tells us that he knew, and that the Thessalonians knew, what that hindrance was, and that it was then in existence. The early Church, through the writings of the Fathers, tells us what it knew upon the subject, and with remarkable unanimity affirms that this "let," or hindrance, was the Roman empire as governed by the Caesars; that while the Caesars held imperial power, it was impossible for the predicted antichrist to arise, and that on the fall of the Caesars he would arise. Here we have a point on which Paul affirms the existence of knowledge in the Christian Church. The early Church knew, he says, what this hindrance was. The early Church tells us what it did know upon the subject, and no one in these days can be in a position to contradict its testimony as to what Paul had, by word of mouth only, told the Thessalonians. It is a point on which ancient
tradition alone can have any authority. Modern speculation is positively impertinent on such a subject.

What then was the view of the early Church? Look at the words of Tertullian. Quoting Thessalonians, he says: "Now ye know what detaineth that he might be revealed in his time, for the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder until he be taken out of the way. What obstacle is there but the Roman state; the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce antichrist ..that the beast antichrist, with his false prophet, may wage war on the Church of God?" (Tertullian: "On the Resurrection," chaps, 24,25) In his magnificent "Apology," addressed to the rulers of the Roman empire, Tertullian says that the Christian Church — not himself, mark, but the Christian Church — prayed for the emperors, and for the stability of the empire of Rome, because they knew "that a mighty shock impending over the whole earth — in fact, the very end of all things, threatening dreadful woes — was ONLY RETARDED by the continued existence of the Roman empire. " (Apology, Section 32)

Read the words of Chrysostom in his "Commentary on 2 Thessalonians": "One may first naturally inquire what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know why Paul expresses this so obscurely. . 'he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.' That is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come; and naturally, for as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will readily exalt himself; but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of men and of God. For as the kingdoms before this were destroyed, that of the Medes by the Babylonians, that of the Babylonians by the Persians, that of the Persians by the Macedonians, that of the Macedonians by the Romans, so will this be by antichrist, and he by Christ."

Then, accounting for Paul's reserve in alluding to this point he adds: "Because he says this of the Roman empire, he naturally only glanced at it and spoke covertly, for he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities and useless dangers. For if he had said that, after a little while, the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would now immediately have even overwhelmed him as a pestilent person, and all the faithful as living and warring to this end." (Chrysostom: Homily 4., "On 2 Thessalonians 2.)

From Irenaeus, who lived close to apostolic times, down to Chrysostom and Jerome, the Fathers taught that the power withholding the manifestation of the "man of sin" was the Roman empire as governed by the Caesars. The Fathers therefore belong to the historic, and not to the futurist school of interpretation; for futurists imagine that the hindrance to the manifestation of the man of sin is still in existence, though the Caesars have long since passed away.

6. The Fathers held that the fall of the Roman empire was imminent, and therefore the manifestation of antichrist close at hand Justin Martyr, for example, one of the earliest of the Fathers, in his "Dialogue with Trypho," chapter 22, says: "He whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for 'time and times and a half ' is already even at the door, about to speak his blasphemous and daring things against the Most High." Cyprian, in his "Exhortation to Martyrdom," says: "Since..the hateful time of antichrist is already beginning to draw near, I would collect from the sacred Scriptures some exhortations for preparing and strengthening the minds of the brethren, whereby I might animate the soldiers of Christ for the heavenly and spiritual contest." (Treatise 11.)

7. The Fathers held that the "man of sin" or antichrist, would be a ruler or head of the Roman empire. A striking illustration of this is the interpretation by Irenaeus and Hippolytus of the mysterious number 666, the number of the revived beast, or antichrist. Irenaeus gives as its interpretation the word Latinos. He says: "Latinos is the number 666, and it is a very probable (solution), this being the name of the last kingdom, for the LATINS are they who at present bear rule. " (Irenoeus: "AgainstHeresies," book 5, chapter 30.)

Hippolytus gives the same solution in his treatise on "Christ and Antichrist."

8. The Fathers held that the Babylon of the Apocalypse means Rome. On this point they were all agreed and their unanimity is an important seal on the correctness of this interpretation. Tertullian, for example, in his answer to the Jews, says:
"Babylon, in our own John, is a figure of the city Rome, as being equally great and proud of her sway, and triumphant over the saints" (chapter 9.). Victorinus, who wrote the earliest commentary on the Apocalypse extant, says, on Revelation 17: "The seven heads are the seven hills on which the woman sitteth — that is, the city of Rome."

Hippolytus says: "Tell me, blessed John, apostle and disciple of the Lord, what didst thou see and hear concerning Babylon? Arise and speak, for it sent thee also into banishment."(Treatise "On Christ and Antichrist,"Section 36.) You notice here the view that Rome which banished the Apostle John is the Babylon of the Apocalypse. Augustine says, "Rome, the second Babylon, and the daughter of the first, to which it pleased God to subject the whole world, and bring it all under one sovereignty, was now founded." (City of God," book 18, chapter 22.)

In chapter 28, he calls Rome "the western Babylon." In chapter 41 he says: "It has not been in vain that this
city has received the mysterious name of Babylon; for Babylon is interpreted confusion, as we have said elsewhere." It is clear from these quotations that the Fathers did not interpret the Babylon of the Apocalypse as meaning either the literal Babylon on the Euphrates, or some great city in France or England, but as meaning Rome. And this is still the interpretation of the historic school, though for the last 800 years events have proved Babylon to represent Rome, not in its pagan, but in its Papal form.

LECTURE 5

As to the "let" or hindrance to the manifestation of the "man of sin" referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2, Mr. Elliott says: "We have the consenting testimony of the early Fathers, from Irenoeus, the disciple of the disciple of St. John, down to Chrysostom and Jerome, to the effect that it was understood to be the imperial power ruling and residing at Rome." — Horae Apocalypticae, vol. 3., p. 92.

Irenaeus held that the division of the Roman empire into ten kingdoms would immediately precede the manifestation of antichrist. In his work, "Against Heresies," book 5, chapter 30, he says, "Let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order and advance their kingdom, (let them learn) to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself and shall terrify those sons of men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number (666), is truly the abomination of desolation." Thus, according to Irenaeus, the manifestation of antichrist required the previous overthrow of the then existing Roman empire.

"Tertullian's Apology" thus describes the habit of the Christian Church of the second century to pray for the security of the Roman empire, in the knowledge that its downfall would bring the catastrophe of the reign of antichrist and the ruin of the world. Addressing the "rulers of the Roman empire," he says: "We offer prayer for the safety of our princes to the eternal, the true, the living God, whose favor, beyond all others, they must themselves desire..Thither we lift our eyes, with hands outstretched, because free from sin; with head uncovered, for we have nothing whereof to be ashamed; finally, without a monitor, because it is from the heart we supplicate. And without ceasing for all our emperors we offer prayer. We pray for life prolonged; for security to the empire.. With our hands thus stretched out and up to God, rend us with your iron claws, hang us up on crosses, wrap us in flames, take our heads from us with the sword, let loose the wild beasts upon us — the very attitude of a Christian praying is the preparation for all punishment. Let this, good rulers, be your work, wring from us the soul, beseeching God on the emperor's behalf. Upon the truth of God and devotion to His name put the brand of crime ..There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock impending over the whole earth — in fact, the very end of all things, threatening dreadful woes — is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire. We have no desire then to be overtaken by these dire events; and in praying that their coming may be delayed, we are lending our aid to Rome's duration." — "Apology," Sections 30-32.

QuoteThis narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible..

Or, you could use scripture itself to determine what the prophetic interpretation of mountains, beasts, kings, and or heads represent. In doing so, you would find that mountains, beasts, kings, and heads, have all been used in biblical prophecy to represent kingdoms or empires. More specifically, the kingdoms or empires of the beasts of the book of Daniel chapter seven, and or the antagonistic kingdoms of God and Satan. Realizing that these prophecies are about the struggles between the kingdom of God here on earth through His people, and the main kingdoms or empires of this world largely controlled by Satan, existing in the greatest relation to and or persecution of God's very own throughout history. As the books of Daniel and the Revelation clearly depict, and often identify them, as the two books are most obviously linked together. The opening of Revelation 13, directly ties the beast being addressed in the same chapter, to the four beasts of the book of Daniel chapter 7.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

John was speaking this prophecy from the time of the Roman Empire. The historicist interpreted fourth beast of the book Daniel chapter 7. A leopard was the historicist third kingdom or empire of the same chapter in Daniel, the Grecian kingdom. A bear raised up on one side was the second historicist beast of the same chapter, the Medo-Persian kingdom. And a lion was the first prophetic kingdom identified in the same chapter, the kingdom of Babylon. So that Revelation 13 verses one and two give a perfect retrospect of the succeeding beasts or kingdoms of prophecy up to the time this prophecy was given. Going backwards in history, connecting all these kingdoms as individual beasts, heads, mountains, or kings, as identified or used interchangeably in the books of Daniel and the Revelation. More specifically in Revelation 17:7-11.

More concerning the rest of your observations later.

QuoteNow, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you will have eliminated some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet, which is misleading and puts a stumbling block square in the road to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.

Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:2  And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The devil's attention is and has been focussed upon this earth. This is where he spent most of his time carrying on his rebellion against God through humanity who had fallen to his deceptions. The book of Revelation 12 however, points out that he was cast down to this earth when he lost the battle to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The devil and his angels were cast out of heaven, at the very least, when our Lord Jesus defeated them here on earth. If not before this time. They were cast down to the earth. They are no longer in heaven, neither was their place found any more in heaven, for them. 

You are correct in stating that the devil is not the antichrist at least yet, or one of the beasts of Revelation 13. For there are two beasts in Revelation 13. The beasts, kingdoms, mountains, or heads of the various prophecies are those through which the devil has continued to carry out his rebellion against God on this earth. Existing in direct relation to God's kingdom on this earth, through His chosen people, Israel or the Church of Christ in the Old and New Covenants.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Oct 03, 2024 - 11:50:57Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:2  And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The devil's attention is and has been focussed upon this earth. This is where he spent most of his time carrying on his rebellion against God through humanity who had fallen to his deceptions. The book of Revelation 12 however, points out that he was cast down to this earth when he lost the battle to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The devil and his angels were cast out of heaven, at the very least, when our Lord Jesus defeated them here on earth. If not before this time. They were cast down to the earth. They are no longer in heaven, neither was their place found any more in heaven, for them. 

You are correct in stating that the devil is not the antichrist at least yet, or one of the beasts of Revelation 13. For there are two beasts in Revelation 13. The beasts, kingdoms, mountains, or heads of the various prophecies are those through which the devil has continued to carry out his rebellion against God on this earth. Existing in direct relation to God's kingdom on this earth, through His chosen people, Israel or the Church of Christ in the Old and New Covenants.

It would seem you are confused as to the doctrine of the antichrist.


 Satan the lying father of lies who brings false prohecy oral traditons through antichrists' plural called the legion.

Antichrist simple another authroity other than that of sola scriptura.


Mathew 16 showing the works / using Peter as one of the many antichrists' that were there. Peter the serial denier rebuked the unseen Holy Father and forbid the Son of man Jesus from doing his Fathers will .

Its necessary to read the bible before you can believe the author.


Matthew 16: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

Quote"Will" wonder after the beast? Perhaps as John's prophecy looked forward to what was to come in his future.
But what might we find regarding fulfilled prophecy, if we exercise a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic of "world", as Strong's suggests:

I would offer God gave living aiding words to John Prophecy, the declaration of Christ. .  it looks ahead, back and the present. Remember as the Lamb slain from the foundation he finished all the works in 6 days .Nothing new under the Sun.

The key is to not wonder or marvel rather than believe prophecy sealed up till the end of time under the Sun . 

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy is the reason Christ spoke in parables without parables .Hiding the spiritual gospel understanding from the father of lies the wondering, wondering god.. Not subject to the gospel. He has no understanding coming from the Holy Father. Without the signified understanding of parables Christ spoke not   

Parable do not change the historical they do enrich it with grace   

2 Thessalonians2: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Lying wonders oral traditons of dying mankind

Revelation in verse 1 identifies the kind of prophetic tongue and not that he   only sent it but signified a parable .Chapter 2:17 calls it hidden manna our daily bread .

It would seem manna represents a parable. Manna literally a question .What is it? Perhaps the call of the Holy Father???

Revelation 1 King James Version The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Again it would seem to be a false fear to believe parables change the historical and not enrich. In that way its not about culture change but the power of the gospel to save. The two temporal and eternal must be mixed. The gospel recipe

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Know man knows. The Holy Father making it personal

Without parable the signified tongue using the dying things seen to give the spiritual understanding hid from the father of lies. Our Holy Father loves to revealed it to sons of God, Christians . . without the signified  Christ spoke not .

You could say the "Let there be" and it was good. Signs follow the invisible eternal.

The king of lying signs to wonder after just as true prophecy on the increase today.

In that way parables teach us how to walk (understand). By Christ's faithful "Let there be" labor of love.

Faith the unseen eternal things of our Holy Father and not of our own undestanding. . . .but of the new born again powerful faith of Christ