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Quote from: Amo on Tue Oct 08, 2024 - 22:21:51Apart from this of course, you know that I do not believe scientists really have a clue concerning the exact how's and why's of our existence. They are grasping at straws in the dark, and seriously handicapped at that, since they reject the plain testimony of scripture. You so confidently say a big bang has nothing to do with what actually happened, as though you know what actually happened. Which you do not.

The cool thing about science is that whether you believe it or not, it's still true. 

Quote from: Alan on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 06:32:22The cool thing about science is that whether you believe it or not, it's still true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

QuoteScience is a systematic discipline that builds and organises knowledge in the form of testable hypotheses and predictions about the world. Modern science is typically divided into two or three major branches: the natural sciences (e.g., physics, chemistry, and biology), which study the physical world; and the behavioural sciences (e.g., economics, psychology, and sociology), which study individuals and societies. The formal sciences (e.g., logic, mathematics, and theoretical computer science), which study formal systems governed by axioms and rules, are sometimes described as being sciences as well; however, they are often regarded as a separate field because they rely on deductive reasoning instead of the scientific method or empirical evidence as their main methodology. Applied sciences are disciplines that use scientific knowledge for practical purposes, such as engineering and medicine.

Science is a system or method employed to find truth, not the truth.

Quote from: Alan on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 06:32:22The cool thing about science is that whether you believe it or not, it's still true.

Not true Alan.

Not everything that science claims is true.

Only those who will continue their explorations into the unknown or try to further define things... known as scientists can be said to be "true" but as to claims about everything they come up with... NO, for if they have no proof and it is their usually "educated" guesswork... they always remind me of a scientist who taught us 9th grade science and claimed Fluoride causes cavities and he had the proof.....

When I got into it... dad being a dentist... I almost flunked that semester until I learned to listen and keep quiet and agree even if I didnt

Scientist are not the end all that be all. They are merely the beginning

The cool thing about science is that whether you believe it or not, it's still true. 

Quote from: Alan on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 10:44:39The cool thing about science is that whether you believe it or not, it's still true.

The potential is true. The facts remain to be proven on much.

Quote from: Amo on Tue Oct 08, 2024 - 22:21:51https://www.astronomy.com/science/how-did-the-big-bang-happen/

Quote below from link above.

Sounds a whole lot like what happens in an explosion to me. I think the name is quite appropriate, derogatory or not. Explosions cause high energy rapid expansion outward from the point of event. What other observable event can or do you attribute the rapid expansion of the universe to? Did the name just stick, or did it stick because there was nothing else so short and sweet that expresses the process of a high energy release unto rapid expansion of gasses and or matter?

An explosion, according to Wikipea, "is a rapid expansion in volume of a given amount of matter associated with an extreme outward release of energy, usually with the generation of high temperatures and release of high-pressure gases".

The big bang began as nearly unlimited high temperature, high energy concentrated in a nearly zero volume of space which constituted the entirety of the physical universe. The universe began to expand and as such began to cool as it expanded, quite unlike any explosion.  It also immediately began to form the fundamental particles that make up matter.  Hydrogen, the simplest of the molecules, made up nearly 100% of that matter, presumably according to Einstein's M=E/c². There was no matter to begin with. The gas, in the form of hydrogen was the result not the basis as is the case of an explosion. Then from the Hydrogen, other forms of matter began to develop.

Quote from: Amo on Tue Oct 08, 2024 - 22:21:51Apart from this of course, you know that I do not believe scientists really have a clue concerning the exact how's and why's of our existence. They are grasping at straws in the dark, and seriously handicapped at that, since they reject the plain testimony of scripture.

No, they are not grasping at straws.  They are  theorizing based upon known physical principles that can be demonstrated an quantified. The formation the heavier elements from the lighter elements is a fairly well known process.  In fact, the scientist who first labeled the big bang was instrumental in formulating those processes.

Actually, you are the one who is grasping at straws in the physical process of the creation, thinking you know what it really means when it says, "God spoke and it was done".  You literally have no idea what it even means that "God spoke"; nor do you know what the "it" actually consisted of. You cannot know absolutely that the "it" was not the big bang.

As a matter of fact, I believe it is you who grasp at straws thinking you understand the precise meaning of the Genesis account of creation.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 11:54:23An explosion, according to Wikipea, "is a rapid expansion in volume of a given amount of matter associated with an extreme outward release of energy, usually with the generation of high temperatures and release of high-pressure gases".

The big bang began as nearly unlimited high temperature, high energy concentrated in a nearly zero volume of space which constituted the entirety of the physical universe. The universe began to expand and as such began to cool as it expanded, quite unlike any explosion.  It also immediately began to form the fundamental particles that make up matter.  Hydrogen, the simplest of the molecules, made up nearly 100% of that matter, presumably according to Einstein's M=E/c². There was no matter to begin with. The gas, in the form of hydrogen was the result not the basis as is the case of an explosion. Then from the Hydrogen, other forms of matter began to develop.
No, they are not grasping at straws.  They are  theorizing based upon known physical principles that can be demonstrated an quantified. The formation the heavier elements from the lighter elements is a fairly well known process.  In fact, the scientist who first labeled the big bang was instrumental in formulating those processes.

Actually, you are the one who is grasping at straws in the physical process of the creation, thinking you know what it really means when it says, "God spoke and it was done".  You literally have no idea what it even means that "God spoke"; nor do you know what the "it" actually consisted of. You cannot know absolutely that the "it" was not the big bang.

As a matter of fact, I believe it is you who grasp at straws thinking you understand the precise meaning of the Genesis account of creation.

Let us assume for a moment that something that some would call the big bang was responsible for what we walk on and also all out there in space.

I am on the fence on that.

But can you honestly say that man and animal life and plants, including pig weed and dandelions came from said big bang.


Could it not possibly be that when in Genesis it says "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters....that the Spirit was out , scouting for, an appropriate place for God's plan for life?

Quote from: Rella on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 13:20:11Let us assume for a moment that something that some would call the big bang was responsible for what we walk on and also all out there in space.

I am on the fence on that.

But can you honestly say that man and animal life and plants, including pig weed and dandelions came from said big bang.

I do not think so.  Genesis 1 tells us that there were three instances of creation. I believe the first one is that God created the heavens and earth (Gen 1:1) in the big bang; I believe the second one is that God created life (Gen 1:20-21); I believe the third one is the creation of the spirit of man in His own image (Gen 1:26-27).

What I don't have a good explanation for is the appearance of the vegetation.  It doesn't say that God created that.  It says, "And God said, 'Let the earth sprout vegetation' ".

Quote from: Rella on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 13:20:11Could it not possibly be that when in Genesis it says "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters....that the Spirit was out , scouting for, an appropriate place for God's plan for life?

I think the phrase, "And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters", is describing what the science has identified as the inflation that really started the expansion of the universe.

I also believe, as some Hebrew scholars have indicated, the phrase the "heavens and earth" is a merism, a rhetorical device (or figure of speech) in which a combination of two contrasting parts of the whole refer to the whole. For example, in order to say that someone "searched everywhere", one could use the merism "searched high and low". In this case, "heavens and earth" signify the sum total from which everything except life emerged.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 16:47:50I do not think so.  Genesis 1 tells us that there were three instances of creation. I believe the first one is that God created the heavens and earth (Gen 1:1) in the big bang; I believe the second one is that God created life (Gen 1:20-21); I believe the third one is the creation of the spirit of man in His own image (Gen 1:26-27).

What I don't have a good explanation for is the appearance of the vegetation.  It doesn't say that God created that.  It says, "And God said, 'Let the earth sprout vegetation' ".

Why would this not be a creation? Surly God (The Word) had the ability to speak anything into being?

For all we know God took a handful of seeds, selected from His heavenly home, and broadcast them onto the earth.

Gen 2 tells us  5 Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to [c]cultivate the ground.      "8 The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. 9 Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

For me, no matter the cause of it happening... Lincoln Logs, Modeling Clay, Erector Set, or Super Putty... OR WORD OF MOUTH... if it came to be that is creation.
I think the phrase, "And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters", is describing what the science has identified as the inflation that really started the expansion of the universe.

Gen 1 further states...  29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the [an]surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the [ap]sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so. 31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

If he made it... it is created unless he ran down to the heavenly Walmart and brought back a Chia Earth to start the seeds...... 

I also believe, as some Hebrew scholars have indicated, the phrase the "heavens and earth" is a merism, a rhetorical device (or figure of speech) in which a combination of two contrasting parts of the whole refer to the whole. For example, in order to say that someone "searched everywhere", one could use the merism "searched high and low". In this case, "heavens and earth" signify the sum total from which everything except life emerged.

Quote from: Rella on Thu Oct 10, 2024 - 09:30:35Why would this not be a creation? Surly God (The Word) had the ability to speak anything into being?

Because, When God "creates" versus when God "makes" something He uses different words.  When God creates, "bara" it is always ex nihilo, or so I have been told and I can't find anywhere that is not true. So did God simply make the first vegetation out of some existing other stuff? That could be.  But vegetable life, just like animal life, is living tissue, with DNA and all the rest of the information tied up with living "stuff".

I know that you probably disagree, but I think the difference between God "creating" and issuing a "let there be" decree is important.  For example, when God said, "Let there be light", science can point to the process whereby that happened about 300,000 years or so after the big bang in a natural process; a process that was, I believe, established as natural law at the outset.

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Oct 10, 2024 - 10:01:32Because, When God "creates" versus when God "makes" something He uses different words.  When God creates, "bara" it is always ex nihilo, or so I have been told and I can't find anywhere that is not true. So did God simply make the first vegetation out of some existing other stuff? That could be.  But vegetable life, just like animal life, is living tissue, with DNA and all the rest of the information tied up with living "stuff".

I know that you probably disagree, but I think the difference between God "creating" and issuing a "let there be" decree is important.  For example, when God said, "Let there be light", science can point to the process whereby that happened about 300,000 years or so after the big bang in a natural process; a process that was, I believe, established as natural law at the outset.

And God saying let us make man in our image means he is going to do something creative.

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Oct 10, 2024 - 10:01:32Because, When God "creates" versus when God "makes" something He uses different words.  When God creates, "bara" it is always ex nihilo, or so I have been told and I can't find anywhere that is not true.

I've heard that too, but I can find some places it doesn't hold.

In Genesis 5:1, for example, God bara-creates man and woman.  But in Genesis 2:7, he yasar-forms man out of the dust of the ground and later forms Eve from Adam's rib.  It can't be both, unless..?

If you look up all the places where bara-create is used, by far the most common thing it says God created is men/mankind.  The same argument applies... we're all born, not poofed-into-existence.

In Joshua 17, it's even suggested that the Israelites bara-create a city, by chopping down the trees of the mountain.  I doubt Joshua meant for them to ex-nihilo a city into place.

Bara means create, but it can mean create in any fashion.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Oct 10, 2024 - 18:08:42I've heard that too, but I can find some places it doesn't hold.

In Genesis 5:1, for example, God bara-creates man and woman.  But in Genesis 2:7, he yasar-forms man out of the dust of the ground and later forms Eve from Adam's rib.  It can't be both, unless..?

I believe God made the bodies of man, and still does through procreation; I believe God created the spirits of man in His own likeness ex nihilo and still does.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Oct 10, 2024 - 18:08:42If you look up all the places where bara-create is used, by far the most common thing it says God created is men/mankind.  The same argument applies... we're all born, not poofed-into-existence.

Yes, but I believe the God creates the spirits of each of us individually and that ex nihilo.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Oct 10, 2024 - 18:08:42In Joshua 17, it's even suggested that the Israelites bara-create a city, by chopping down the trees of the mountain.  I doubt Joshua meant for them to ex-nihilo a city into place.

Creating by anyone but God is obviously not ex nihilo; But is there any bara-create by God that is not ex nihilo.

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Oct 10, 2024 - 10:01:32Because, When God "creates" versus when God "makes" something He uses different words.  When God creates, "bara" it is always ex nihilo, or so I have been told and I can't find anywhere that is not true. So did God simply make the first vegetation out of some existing other stuff? That could be.  But vegetable life, just like animal life, is living tissue, with DNA and all the rest of the information tied up with living "stuff".

I know that you probably disagree, but I think the difference between God "creating" and issuing a "let there be" decree is important.  For example, when God said, "Let there be light", science can point to the process whereby that happened about 300,000 years or so after the big bang in a natural process; a process that was, I believe, established as natural law at the outset.

Been doing some study on this and  this is what I find.

THE IMPORTANT WORDS OF THIS STUDY ARE seeking to find out what God meant by make
and the final comment on this is a reasonably understandable explanation of bara et al for this discussion.

 
'ā·ḏām      na·'ă·śeh      'ĕ·lō·hîm      way·yō·mer  26
                           
 man        let Us make        God        And said

When we look up the word make we find the Meriam Webster definition states

The meaning of MAKE is to bring into being by forming, shaping, or altering material : fashion.

Which, if you subscribe to the Genesis story, what was done to make Adam/man in Gen 2: 7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Which is an action . Not simply a spoken directive.

We also find that make is considered a verb when used to create or prepare something by combining materials or putting parts together

This is from Oxford Dictionery

So I looked into what the difference between make and create are.

From Wiki https://wikidiff.com/make/create


Create is a synonym of make.

In intransitive terms the difference between make and create is that make is to tend; to contribute; to have effect; with for or against while create is to be creative, imaginative.
In transitive terms the difference between make and createis that make is to pay, to cover (an expense); chiefly used after expressions of inability.|lang=encreate is to confer a cardinalate, which can not be inherited, but most often bears a pre‐existent title (notably a church in Rome).

As verbs the difference between make and createis that make is To create.create is to put into existence.

As a noun make is brand or kind; often paired with model. {{jump|brand|s|t}.

As an adjective create is created, resulting from creation.



Last, but not least important....

https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/did-god-create-bara-or-make-asah-in-genesis-1/

QuoteUnderstanding Genesis 1 Hebrew: Create (bara) & Make (asah)
Did God Create (Bara) or Make (Asah) in Genesis 1?
by Dr. Terry Mortenson on August 15, 2007; last featured October 16, 2020
Featured in Answers in Depth
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Abstract
Many people who have written on Genesis 1 have attempted to make a very significant distinction between two Hebrew words found there.

Keywords: create, bara, make, asah, theistic evolutionists, old-earth creationists, neo-Darwinism, exegesis, Hebrew, Genesis

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Many people who have written on Genesis 1 have attempted to make a very significant distinction between two Hebrew words found there: bara (בָּרָא, to create) and asah (עָשָׂה, to make or do). Theistic evolutionists (TEs) and old-earth creationists (OECs) both accept the millions of years advocated by the scientific establishment (although the OECs do not accept neo-Darwinian evolution while TEs do). They sometimes try to defend the acceptance of millions of years by saying that bara refers to supernatural creation ex nihilo (Latin for "out of nothing") but that asah means to make out of pre-existing material and therefore allows for creation over a long period of time. Such people say that the only supernatural creation events were in relation to the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1), sea creatures and birds (1:21), and Adam and Eve (1:27). Since asah is used for all other creative acts in Genesis 1, those acts could have been creative processes over the course of millions of years.

But this argument will not stand when we look carefully at the use of these words in Genesis 1 and in other biblical passages related to creation. Compare these two lists:

Bara: to shape or create    Asah: to do or make
Gen. 1:1        created the heavens and earth    Gen. 1:7        made the expanse between the waters above and below

Gen. 1:21    x1    created the sea creatures and birds    Gen. 1:16    **;x2    made the sun, moon and stars

Gen. 1:27    **;x3    created man (both Adam and Eve)    Gen. 1:25        made all land creatures

Gen. 2:3    **    created and made all His works    Gen. 1:31        all that He made

Gen. 2:4        created heavens and earth    Gen. 2:3    **    all His works which God created and made

Gen. 5:1    **    created man (both Adam and Eve, cf. 5:2)    Gen. 2:4    **    made heaven and earth

Gen. 5:2        created male and female    Gen. 3:1        made the beasts of the field

Ps. 89:47        created all the sons of men    Gen. 3:7        made loin clothes from fig leaves

Ps. 104:30    x1    created sea creatures    Gen. 3:21        made garments from animal skins

Ps. 148:5    **;x2    created heavens, heights, angels, hosts, sun, moon, and stars    Gen. 5:1    **    made man (referring to both male and female)

Isa. 40:26    **;x2    created stars    Gen. 6:6    **    made man

Isa. 40:26        created trees, rivers    Gen. 7:4    **    destroy every living thing that I have made

Isa. 54:16        created the blacksmith and the destroyer    Gen. 9:6    **    man made in the image of God
              Ps. 121:2    **    made the heavens and the earth
              Ps. 104:24    **;x1    made the sea, sea creatures, and land animals
              Isa. 41:20    **    done this, made the trees and rivers
              Isa. 43:7    **    made, created, and formed man
              Isa. 45:18    **    made, formed, established, and created the earth

The question before us is whether God's "creating activities" and "making activities" in Genesis 1 are categorically different kinds of events or processes. From these verses above we can note the following:

Some verses above indicate that God both "created" (bara) and "made" (asah) something. So, for example, ** shows that Gen. 2:4 uses both bara and asah to refer to the origin of the heavens and the earth. Gen. 5:1 and Isa. 43:7 do the same with respect to the origin of man. In other cases (e.g., marked by x1, x2, or x3), one verse says that God created (bara) something and a different verse says God made (asah) that same thing. So, for example, x1 shows that Ps. 104:24 says God made (asah) sea creatures (referred to in 104:25) but that Gen. 1:21 and Ps. 104:30 (referring back to 104:25) say that God created (bara) sea creatures. And x2 shows that Ps. 148:5 and Isa. 40:26 say that God created (bara) the stars, but Gen. 1:16 says God made (asah) them. Similarly, x3 shows that Gen. 1:26 says God made (asah) man in the image of God, and 1:27 says he created (bara) man in the image of God. Clearly, bara (create) and asah (make) are used interchangeably in the Bible in reference to the creation of the following: the sun, moon, stars, sea creatures, trees, rivers, man, heavens, and earth.

Bara does not always mean to create out of nothing. God created the first male and female humans (Gen. 5:2). But we know from Genesis 2:7 that God formed (יָצַר, yatsar) Adam from the dust of the earth and in Genesis 2:22 we are told that God fashioned (בָּנָה, banah) Eve from the rib of Adam.

So, making a strong distinction between bara and asah in Genesis 1–2 is as unjustified as making a distinction between "create" and "make" in English. It is true that in Scripture only God is the subject of the verb bara; men make (asah) things, but only God creates (bara). But God also makes (asah) things. The verbs alone cannot tell us how God created and how long He took to create.

No distinction can be made between these Greek words in reference to Creation week.
New Testament references confirm this understanding when describing the creative work of our Creator, Jesus Christ. For example, John 1:3 says that all things came into being (ἐγένετο, egeneto) by the Word of God, who is Jesus Christ (John 1:14). Colossians 1:16 says that all things were created (ἐκτίσθη, ektisthay) by and for Christ. Hebrews 1:2 says He made (ἐποίησεν, epoiaysen) the original creation by His Word (cf. Heb. 11:3). "Come into being," "create," and "made" in these passages are clearly referring to the same divine activities in Genesis 1 and 2. No distinction can be made between these Greek words in reference to Creation week. These Greek words in these texts are in the aorist tense. None of these words by themselves connote any specific time frame other than that, in these cases, they refer to completed past action. They cannot be interpreted to mean that the processes are still going on (which would require a different Greek verb tense—present tense). Therefore, they disallow an evolutionary meaning, since evolution is said to be a process that is continuing today.

Conclusion
This short study shows that there is no basis for saying that bara only means an instantaneous, out-of-nothing, supernatural creative action but that asah only means a slow, out-of-existing-material, natural process of making (under God's providence, of course). In the creation account (Genesis 1:1-2:3), both words are used in reference to ex nihilo creation events, and both are also used in reference to things God made from previously created material.

So, only the context in which the words are used can give the precise meaning, if there is a distinction to be made. The context of Genesis, indeed the whole Bible, is overwhelmingly in favor of interpreting both bara and asah in Genesis 1 as virtually instantaneous acts. Whether God created something out of nothing or created something from material that He had just made, the force of the words in context is that both kinds of activities were instantaneous and supernatural after God spoke "Let there be . . . ." In Genesis 1 and 2, we should assume ex nihilo (out of nothing) creation unless the text clearly indicates otherwise (e.g., Genesis 2:7, 22).

Quote､
 
         

Quote from: Rella on Fri Oct 11, 2024 - 07:25:35

Been doing some study on this and  this is what I find.

THE IMPORTANT WORDS OF THIS STUDY ARE seeking to find out what God meant by make
and the final comment on this is a reasonably understandable explanation of bara et al for this discussion.

 
'ā·ḏām      na·'ă·śeh      'ĕ·lō·hîm      way·yō·mer  26
                           
 man        let Us make        God        And said

When we look up the word make we find the Meriam Webster definition states

The meaning of MAKE is to bring into being by forming, shaping, or altering material : fashion.

Which, if you subscribe to the Genesis story, what was done to make Adam/man in Gen 2: 7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Which is an action . Not simply a spoken directive.

We also find that make is considered a verb when used to create or prepare something by combining materials or putting parts together

This is from Oxford Dictionery

So I looked into what the difference between make and create are.

From Wiki https://wikidiff.com/make/create


Create is a synonym of make.

In intransitive terms the difference between make and create is that make is to tend; to contribute; to have effect; with for or against while create is to be creative, imaginative.
In transitive terms the difference between make and createis that make is to pay, to cover (an expense); chiefly used after expressions of inability.|lang=encreate is to confer a cardinalate, which can not be inherited, but most often bears a pre‐existent title (notably a church in Rome).

As verbs the difference between make and createis that make is To create.create is to put into existence.

As a noun make is brand or kind; often paired with model. {{jump|brand|s|t}.

As an adjective create is created, resulting from creation.



Last, but not least important....

https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/did-god-create-bara-or-make-asah-in-genesis-1/

Quote from: 4WD on Fri Oct 11, 2024 - 05:40:58Creating by anyone but God is obviously not ex nihilo; But is there any bara-create by God that is not ex nihilo

I think so, but you dismissed the others in a way I would never have conceived of, so who knows what you'll accept...

Isaiah 41
When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.  I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.  I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:  That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
Here God gives a coupl emethods of creation... he will 'open rivers' and 'plant' trees.

Isaiah 45:7
I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Admittedly this is a weird verse... I am not sure 'create' is even the best translation here.  I do believe that bara has a secondary meaning of 'overthrow' that might work better in this verse.

Isaiah 57:19  I create the fruit of the lips;
This one isn't even a physical thing.  Can you ex-nihilo a song or speech?

Isaiah, at least, uses the word in a much more generic sense.

I think the reference in Isaiah 41 is a statement that God created the everything at the outset, and therefore can certainly do what He claims such as opening rivers on the bare heights, and fountains in the midst of the valleys.  I am not sure that the creation spoken there is meant to describe those individual events specifically.

But that is probably just me.

QuoteThe big bang began as nearly unlimited high temperature, high energy concentrated in a nearly zero volume of space which constituted the entirety of the physical universe. The universe began to expand and as such began to cool as it expanded, quite unlike any explosion.  It also immediately began to form the fundamental particles that make up matter.  Hydrogen, the simplest of the molecules, made up nearly 100% of that matter, presumably according to Einstein's M=E/c2. There was no matter to begin with. The gas, in the form of hydrogen was the result not the basis as is the case of an explosion. Then from the Hydrogen, other forms of matter began to develop.

There you go again, speaking so matter of fact like, as if you know it all. And or as though God Himself was or is limited by humanities puny observations and speculations regarding His creative power. Back 14 billion years worth. God though, is certainly not limited, or contained in any way shape or form, by humanities extremely limited mental or intellectual capacities.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The above peoples being addressed didn't just reject the word of God, they rejected it by changing it into a lie. Holding the truth in unrighteousness, by claiming to believe it, but only in accord with their own imaginations. Changing it into a testimony of the observation and speculations of their own vain imaginings. Thereby worshipping themsleves, the creature, above the Creator.

QuoteActually, you are the one who is grasping at straws in the physical process of the creation, thinking you know what it really means when it says, "God spoke and it was done".  You literally have no idea what it even means that "God spoke"; nor do you know what the "it" actually consisted of. You cannot know absolutely that the "it" was not the big bang.

As a matter of fact, I believe it is you who grasp at straws thinking you understand the precise meaning of the Genesis account of creation.

You know there is a lot more in scripture backing up what YEC's believe than just the verse you addressed above. You think that those who have the scriptures right in front of their faces, to examine as they have for thousands of years now, are grasping at straws in their interpretations. While those of the evolutionary faith, who have not and cannot observe anything they are theorizing concerning the deep recesses of time and basically everything, have nailed it down now as scientific fact. As I have stated before, your faith in the religion of deep time evolution is astounding. Built as it is, upon human speculation and extrapolations which have proved themselves wrong so many times over already. Nevertheless, you do always have the handy excuse, that this is just the evolving nature of the theory of evolution and science. As though being wrong many times over, was simply part of "factual" science. So be it. 

It's easy to doubt things when you don't understand how those things work. 

Quote from: Alan on Sat Oct 12, 2024 - 11:42:10It's easy to doubt things when you don't understand how those things work.

Is that why you doubt so much plain testimony from the holy scriptures, because you do not properly understand or accept them?

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Oct 12, 2024 - 04:53:32I think the reference in Isaiah 41 is a statement that God created the everything at the outset, and therefore can certainly do what He claims such as opening rivers on the bare heights, and fountains in the midst of the valleys.  I am not sure that the creation spoken there is meant to describe those individual events specifically.

But that is probably just me.

It's a prophecy - it's about future events.  Not the past creation.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Oct 13, 2024 - 00:26:48It's a prophecy - it's about future events.  Not the past creation.

I think the assertion here is that God created it, therefore all that he promises in the future is assured.

Yes it is prophecy, but verse 20 is in the past tense, indicating that He is speaking of the creation, not the promises stated earlier.

But again, that may be just me.

A question for the Christian evolutionists on these boards regarding the following verses of holy scripture.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Will the saved have to wait another 14 billion years to inhabit the new heaven and earth? If not, why not? Why would the first creation account really mean slow deep time evolutionary processes over the course of 14 billion years, and the second reference to a new creation supplanting the old, not mean the same?

Quote from: Amo on Sun Oct 13, 2024 - 09:42:00A question for the Christian evolutionists on these boards regarding the following verses of holy scripture.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Will the saved have to wait another 14 billion years to inhabit the new heaven and earth? If not, why not? Why would the first creation account really mean slow deep time evolutionary processes over the course of 14 billion years, and the second reference to a new creation supplanting the old, not mean the same?

Since they won't be waiting in this physical universe and so far as we know, there is no time in heaven, what does it matter? Besides, after that will be forever, so what is a few billion years in eternity?

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Oct 13, 2024 - 13:50:14Since they won't be waiting in this physical universe and so far as we know, there is no time in heaven, what does it matter?

There will be no aging in heaven, but there will be time, as in days at the very least, for -

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

If God's sabbath will still be a time of gathering and worship as the above scriptures say it will, then the seven day week will have to still be in place. Likewise, if all will gather before the Lord from one new moon to another, then this time period will be recognized as well. Unless of course, God Himself changes the length of days or weeks or whatever, as He certainly may if He wishes. Scripture says nothing about such though.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Oct 13, 2024 - 14:06:51There will be no aging in heaven, but there will be time, as in days at the very least, for -

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

If God's sabbath will still be a time of gathering and worship as the above scriptures say it will, then the seven day week will have to still be in place. Likewise, if all will gather before the Lord from one new moon to another, then this time period will be recognized as well. Unless of course, God Himself changes the length of days or weeks or whatever, as He certainly may if He wishes. Scripture says nothing about such though.

Why will there be time?  What will it measure? What will be its purpose?  In reality, what is time? That is just one more, I believe, bit of nonsense that comes from thinking that the new heaven and earth will just be a continued physical existence, and a rather strange one at that given Revelation 21.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Oct 12, 2024 - 18:51:16Is that why you doubt so much plain testimony from the holy scriptures, because you do not properly understand or accept them?

Nice try, but no. 

Quote from: Amo on Sun Oct 13, 2024 - 14:06:51There will be no aging in heaven, but there will be time, as in days at the very least, for -

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

If God's sabbath will still be a time of gathering and worship as the above scriptures say it will, then the seven day week will have to still be in place. Likewise, if all will gather before the Lord from one new moon to another, then this time period will be recognized as well. Unless of course, God Himself changes the length of days or weeks or whatever, as He certainly may if He wishes. Scripture says nothing about such though.

I personally do not believe there will be a Sabbath in heaven, I believe worship will be ongoing and on a personal one to one basis

Quote from: Rella on Wed Oct 16, 2024 - 07:33:17I personally do not believe there will be a Sabbath in heaven, I believe worship will be ongoing and on a personal one to one basis

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Why will you not take heed of that which scripture declares one would do well to heed?  Why will you stack up your personal opinion against the testimony of one of God's chosen prophets, who was moved by the Holy Ghost? The prophet so often quoted by our Lord, and in the New Testament?

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mat 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; 13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. 15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them. 16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Mat 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16 And charged them that they should not make him known: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet,saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 16 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Jhn 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. 24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. 28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Jhn 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Act 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.[/u] 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. 13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Please do reconsider Rella, I fear it is dangerous for you to blow off the testimony of such a prominent prophet of God. Whose testimony regarding our Lord and the salvation He provided for the Gentiles, was and is so important to our Lord's New Testament.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 14, 2024 - 05:51:59Why will there be time?  What will it measure? What will be its purpose?  In reality, what is time? That is just one more, I believe, bit of nonsense that comes from thinking that the new heaven and earth will just be a continued physical existence, and a rather strange one at that given Revelation 21.

God created time, light and darkness, days and nights or mornings and evenings, days, weeks, months, and years.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God created all in the spiritual realm, for God is a spirit. Humanity and the world only lost their spiritual existence after they disobeyed God. They were then no longer of His spirit, but rather of their own flesh. Disconnected if you will.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

God did not create corruption, it was the result of sin. Man was formed by God, who breathed His own life or spirit into Adam, and he became a living soul. Disconnected and of the flesh alone, only after sin. Who now must invite the spirit of God within, not having it by nature anymore, until after the resurrection.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Time was made for humanity when they were spiritual beings in a perfect world. I see no reason for it not to exist when all is not only restored, but greatly enhanced. Nor do the scriptures I believe, teach timelessness. Without the concept of time, what would eternity mean? Or the promise of eternal life? Just the fact that this world itself had a beginning, and will end, creates an everlasting point of time. As has, and does the life of every individual that has or will live and die. Time is not going anywhere, it will just continue forever for the saved.

Why discount what the scriptures say regarding special times in heaven, in order to support the idea of timelessness, which is not necessary to eternity at all? Without the concept of passing time, the word eternity would be meaningless. Only God exists in the realm of timelessness, having no beginning and no end. The rest of us all have a beginning, and therefore reference and concept of time. Which scripture indicates will still exist for us in heaven. God created divisions of time for the created, according to His own purposes, which scripture testifies will continue in heaven.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Timelessness is an attribute of God, not the created. Which is why He can see and predict the future, just as accurately as the past. He alone has no beginning and no end. The rest of us have a beginning, and therefore exist within the realms of time. God will always know the number of our days, even if we do or will forget. 

Quote from: Amo on Thu Oct 17, 2024 - 11:39:12God created time, light and darkness, days and nights or mornings and evenings, days, weeks, months, and years.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God created all in the spiritual realm, for God is a spirit. Humanity and the world only lost their spiritual existence after they disobeyed God. They were then no longer of His spirit, but rather of their own flesh. Disconnected if you will.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

God did not create corruption, it was the result of sin. Man was formed by God, who breathed His own life or spirit into Adam, and he became a living soul. Disconnected and of the flesh alone, only after sin. Who now must invite the spirit of God within, not having it by nature anymore, until after the resurrection.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Time was made for humanity when they were spiritual beings in a perfect world. I see no reason for it not to exist when all is not only restored, but greatly enhanced. Nor do the scriptures I believe, teach timelessness. Without the concept of time, what would eternity mean? Or the promise of eternal life? Just the fact that this world itself had a beginning, and will end, creates an everlasting point of time. As has, and does the life of every individual that has or will live and die. Time is not going anywhere, it will just continue forever for the saved.

Why discount what the scriptures say regarding special times in heaven, in order to support the idea of timelessness, which is not necessary to eternity at all? Without the concept of passing time, the word eternity would be meaningless. Only God exists in the realm of timelessness, having no beginning and no end. The rest of us all have a beginning, and therefore reference and concept of time. Which scripture indicates will still exist for us in heaven. God created divisions of time for the created, according to His own purposes, which scripture testifies will continue in heaven.

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Timelessness is an attribute of God, not the created. Which is why He can see and predict the future, just as accurately as the past. He alone has no beginning and no end. The rest of us have a beginning, and therefore exist within the realms of time. God will always know the number of our days, even if we do or will forget.

Time is a result of the creation of this physical universe.  Even in this realm, for something that moves with the speed of light, there is no time. Clearly there is no time nor even a need for time in the spiritual realm which is an eternal realm.   

Quote from: Amo on Thu Oct 17, 2024 - 10:33:31. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/color]


Please do reconsider Rella, I fear it is dangerous for you to blow off the testimony of such a prominent prophet of God. Whose testimony regarding our Lord and the salvation He provided for the Gentiles, was and is so important to our Lord's New Testament.

Amo, I read all of what you posted and save for the part above, enlarged... ''But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME.............

Where pray tell me is there mention of Sabbath worshipping in heaven? Where......?

Rev 5:11-12
Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing."

Revelation 7:11

And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

Revelation 19:4

And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!"

Revelation 5:11

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

Revelation 7:13-14

I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

For this reason, they are befor; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Do these sound like a Sabbath to you ? To me it seems ongoing.

Especially... and they serve Him day and night in His temple

https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Mar/22/how-will-we-worship-god-heaven/

QuoteWhat do you think worship means? Singing to God? Going to church? Some people have an idea that worshipping God is boring, something you have to do. They forget, or really aren't sure, how awesome God is. They think of Heaven as a long church service. Ever think that way?

You'd probably wait all day to see your favorite celebrity if you knew that he or she was soon to appear at your local mall or bookstore. No one has to drag you there. You want to see that person! And when you see him, what do you say? Probably something like, "Wow, I'm so-o-o glad to meet you. This is the best day of my life!" You'd probably name something you appreciate about the person—his book, her tennis serve, the cool way he played the invading alien general in his last movie.

Even if you are nervous, no one has to tell you to say something nice to the celebrity you've met. In the same way, no one will have to tell you in Heaven, "Say something nice to God." You'll just naturally do it and want to do it and enjoy doing it. Worship simply means expressing your appreciation for God.

Some might wonder if all we'll do in Heaven is worship God. Well, yes and no. No, because the Bible says we'll be doing many other things—eating, working, relaxing, learning, etc. And yes, because all that we do will show our appreciation for God in an act of worship that will never end.

Worship involves more than singing and prayer. We're commanded, "Always be joyful. Never stop praying. Be thankful in all circumstances" (1 Thessalonians 5:16-18). We know that God expects us to do many different things on Earth, such as work, rest, and spend time with our families. So if we are to be joyful, pray, and give thanks all the time, we must worship God even while doing other things. Same deal in Heaven.

And the last Copy and Paste for this day.... which you will not agree with, I know but

https://answeringadventism.com/does-isaiah-66-prove-the-seventh-day-sabbath-will-be-kept-in-heaven/

QuoteDoes Isaiah 66 prove the Seventh-day Sabbath will be kept in heaven?

A common defense given for the seventh-day Sabbath by the SDA Church is that Isaiah 66:22-3 proves that the seventh-day Sabbath is eternal, it was kept in Heaven before the creation of earth, and will be observed into eternity. Since this is the case, the seventh-day Sabbath is binding right now as well.

This is ultimately coming from Ellen G. White who they believe was divinely inspired and corrects inaccurate interpretations of scripture so her interpretation of the text ultimately stands.

But this is not what the text is saying.

In his book, Sunday as the First-Day Sabbath, Dr. Philip Kayser explains that Isaiah 65-66 is pointing to the person and work of Jesus Christ. It anticipates the time when all things will be made new as a result of His incarnation (Isaiah 66:7-9). This includes a new heavens and earth (Isaiah 65:17), but prior to that time there will be changes in God's people (Isaiah 65:18-19; 2 Corinthians 5:16-7), changes in the extent of Deuteronomy 28 type blessings (Isaiah 65:20-25), and even changes in worship (Isaiah 66:1-4) and church government (Isaiah 66:18-21).

If priests and Levites in the new covenant will no longer be from the tribe of Levi but will be from the Gentiles (Isaiah 66:21), it is not out of the ordinary that the Sabbath would be included in the "new" things when "from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before" God (Isaiah 66:23). Both chapters anticipate the New Creation by Christ's making all things new (2 Corinthians 5, Revelation 21:5).

This new covenant creation was typified in the Old Testament feast days by the "eighth day Sabbath" which pointed figuratively to Christ (Leviticus 23:39). What is the eighth day? Sunday—the day "after the sabbath." This "eighth day" concept occurs repeatedly in the festivals (Lev. 23:5, 10, 15, 34-36, 39).

This new creation was typified by the Jubilee year which was the year after the seventh seven. Christ declared Himself to be the fulfillment of the Jubilee (Luke 4:19). Every Sunday is the day after the seventh—which is like a miniature jubilee.

This new creation is recognized to be a new "day which the LORD has made" (Psalm 118:24); namely the resurrection day when Christ entered His rest. This resurrection "day" fulfills in the new creation the function that the old day "made" by God had—it is set apart as His day (Revelation 1:10). This is why Hebrews 4:8 indicates that when Psalm 95 is referring to "another day" (namely the resurrection) it signifies that "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (Hebrews 4:10). We've shown this here.

The new creation is seen to be here presently, by Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:16-7, where he explains that believers, by virtue of being in union with Christ, are made "new creatures." This isn't merely behavior modification, but also a change in the believers actual being. They are then awaiting the glorification of their body in resurrection when the curse is lifted off of the creation (Romans 8:18-25). Because human beings are a part of the creation, and Paul tells us God makes believers new creatures, that means the New Creation is already here—just not in it's fullness yet.

In light of Peter's exposition of Psalm 118 in Acts 4:10-12, it appears reasonable that when Psalm 118:24 says, "this is the day that the LORD has made; we will rejoice and be glad in it," it is a reference not just to Christ's resurrection, but the making of a new day of our weekly celebration. It most certainly applies to the resurrection of Christ, but it appears to be an ongoing day of celebration as well.

Isaiah is not talking about the seventh-day sabbath being observed into eternity. He is foretelling of the incarnation and Jesus's work of redemption and making all things new. For the SDA Church to be consistent, they would need to say there will be new moon celebrations in eternity, yet we're told that there will be no sun and moon there (Revelation 21:23), both of which are necessary for weekly sabbaths and new moon celebrations.

So.... if you want to believe you will have a Sabbath in Heaven, and while indications are that there will be constant worship in heaven... I might be out on a limb here but I would think if while you are worshipping you took a space of time weekly... if there are weeks at that time... to worship God and then get back to worshipping God... I dont think (could be wrong) that God will mind.

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Oct 17, 2024 - 12:30:32Time is a result of the creation of this physical universe.  Even in this realm, for something that moves with the speed of light, there is no time. Clearly there is no time nor even a need for time in the spiritual realm which is an eternal realm.

You speak of things by which God is not limited in any way shape or form, though we most certainly are. Not to mention, that according to scripture there is far more to creation than the box and or dimensions God has limited us within. Existing all around us even now.

There is no good reason for a bible believer to determine that God is limited by their own understanding or perceptions of what is. To the effect that there will not be, nor could be, appointed time related events in heaven. Scripture specifically addresses certain events that will transpire in the new heaven and earth. Events that will mark the passing of time. Why will you try to bring God down to the level of men. Denying that which He has inspired His prophets to testify concerning the future new heaven and earth, by limiting Him to the box He Himself has presently limited us to? Do you really think God and the rest of His creations which we are not privy to, are limited by the speed of light?

The problem with sin and sinners, is that we truly cannot see beyond ourselves. Attempting to limit everything according to our own experience, perceptions, and understanding. This problem extends deep into the realm of our sciences so called, all of which are themselves as extremely limited as we ourselves are. All existing only within the limitations God has placed upon those who have basically chosen to exist outside of God Himself, and therefore reality itself.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Where does it say in scripture that the saved will all be moving faster than the speed of light? Or why would you presume this upon the saved? God is light. Do you think you presently perfectly understand light, or God?

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

QuoteSo.... if you want to believe you will have a Sabbath in Heaven, and while indications are that there will be constant worship in heaven... I might be out on a limb here but I would think if while you are worshipping you took a space of time weekly... if there are weeks at that time... to worship God and then get back to worshipping God... I dont think (could be wrong) that God will mind.

It is not a matter of God minding or not. It is the matter of God's word being truth or not. It is a matter of authority. We will either believe God's word is the standard of truth, or we will make others or ourself the standard of truth. The exact issue addressed in the Garden, when Adam and Eve chose to believe another standard of truth, than the word of God which had been spoken to them.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Does verse 23 above seem like a request to you? It doesn't say God will ask people if they will please come to worship before Him at the appointed times, it says they will. Are the holy scriptures the standard of truth, or is every sinner themself the standard of truth. I am a sinner in need of salvation, and clearly understand that I most certainly am not the standard of truth. Nevertheless, God has given all the freedom to choose whatever standard of truth they themsleves desire. though there will come a day.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.