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Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

There were giants on the earth before the sons of God went in unto the daughters of men. The sons of God were those who remained faithful to God after the fall, not fallen angels. Therefore are the saved referred to as the sons of God as well.

Hos 1:10  Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Jhn 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Php 2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1Jn 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The sons of God when in reference to humanity, are God's own among fallen humanity, not angels.

Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, 25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, 26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda, 27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri, 28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er, 29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, 30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim, 31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David, 32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson, 33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda, 34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, 35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala, 36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech, 37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

But for the fall, we would all still be sons of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6IxpxWVSio

Haven't posted a Mystery History in a while. There is a good reason there are stories of a great flood and giants the world over.

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.com/2022/04/24/mystery-of-pyramids-submerged-on-cuba-coast-more-than-50000-years-ago/

quoted article below, from link above. Emphasis is mine.

QuoteMystery Of Pyramids Submerged On Cuba Coast More Than 50,000 Years Ago

In 2001, a Cuban-Canadian research team discovered what could be the ruins of an ancient city that sank more than 50,000 years ago between Yucatan and the western coast of Cuba. The team worked on the "Project Exploramar," which discovered the well-preserved USS Maine, three miles off the Cuban coast at 1150 m depth in 2000.

On December 7, 2001, BBC News announced the discovery of an ancient sunken city with unusual features off the coast of the Guanahacabibes peninsula in the Pinar del Río province of Cuba. It was found using an underwater robot equipped with cameras, lights, and sonars at more than 2,000 feet (650 meters) below the sea's surface covering an area of 2 square kilometres (200 hectares).

The discovery was reported by Canadian Marine Engineer Paulina Zelitsky along with her husband Paul Weinzweig. She stumbled upon the fantastic geometric patterns which she found 2000 feet underwater while studying the grainy, black and white sonar images on her computer screen, searching for a scientific explanation.

Paulina Zelitsky was born in Poland and studied engineering in the former Soviet Union. During the Cold War, she worked on a submarine base in Cuba but defected to Canada, where she married Paul Weinzweig and together, they set up a company called Advanced Digital Communications (ADC).

The expedition that resulted in the discovery of megalithic structures off the coast of Cuba was a joint venture between ADC, the National Geographic Society, and the Centre for Marine Archaeology and Anthropology at the Cuban Academy of Sciences in Cuba. The Cuban government-employed Zelitsky & her team to assist in the location of a sunken treasure that is believed to lie off the coast in a variety of vessels.

The structures, located at a depth of approximately 650 meters, seemed to have an urban pattern and generated significant headlines such as "The Discovery of Atlantis in Cuba." ADA mapped the ocean floor surrounding Cuba for three years under contract with the Cuban government. Using their 265-foot ship, Ulises, they found about 20 shipwrecks, including the USS Maine, and vast oil fields in deep waters around the island.

"The structures we found on the side-scan sonar simply are not explicable from a geological point of view. There is too much organization. too much symmetry, too much repetition of form," Weinzweig said.

Discovery Made

According to Zelitsky, the research vessel Ulises sailed in the Yucatan Channel just off the west coast of Cuba that day, hired by the Castro government to look for undersea oil and gas, as well as old treasure ships if they could be found.

As Zelitsky and Weinzweig were watching the screen, the empty plain of sea bed suddenly gave way to images of massive geometric shapes, apparently cut from stone. As more shapes came into view, some appeared to be arranged in patterns over a large area of about 20 square kilometres.

Some stones seemed to be cut into blocks, and some blocks looked perfectly aligned. They appeared to form corridors and the outlines of rooms, the two scientists said. There were round stones and pyramid-shaped ones, too.

"The sea bottom in that area is an undulating sandplain. What they were seeing should not have been there. We were shocked, and frankly, we were a little frightened. It was as though we should not be seeing what we were seeing. Our first thought was maybe we found some kind of secret military installation," said Zelitsky.

"Nothing is known for certain now," Weinzweig noted, "but the oral tradition in early Mexico speaks of an advanced civilization of tall white people who came from the East, and of an island that sank in a great natural disaster." In the ancient language of some early Central American Indians, he said, "the word Atlantic means 'our good father,' or, 'the place where our good father rests.'"

What if the intriguing shapes found by the sonar are just carved over the centuries by whimsical nature? Zelitsky and Weinzweig did not think so. Besides, she added that they believed it to be the remnants of a city that had been built by locals upon a land bridge connecting Cuba to the mainland at some point, although such a bridge is not known to have ever existed.

"There is no granite in Cuba or the Yucatan. That area features limestone," Zelitsky said. Granite is found in Central Mexico, and was used by ancient people such as the Maya and an older civilization, the Olmec, in their construction of cities and buildings.

This site, perhaps built by a culture that far pre-dates the famous Maya of the Yucatan Peninsula, might have been the victim of a vast, mysterious cataclysm that somehow dropped it 2,000 feet beneath the surface of the sea. The Maya developed a magnificent civilization on the Yucatan Peninsula beginning about A.D. 250 and peaking about A.D. 900. Spain finally completed its conquest of the Maya in about 1500.

The Maya produced advanced architecture, paintings, pottery, and sculpture, and their grasp of mathematics and astronomy was remarkable for that time. They might have developed the first calendar and were among the first to make paper and books of tree bark. They cut large stone blocks and made buildings, courtyards, and pyramids, many for the worship of numerous gods.

But Zelitsky thought the Mega site pre-dates even the ancient Maya by a lot.

Then other voices arose that expressed their opinion about the discovery, such as Archaeologist Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews of Bad Archeology. According to him, during the ice age, the city would never have been above sea level unless the place it was built on had sunk first.

"However, if we take Plato at his word – as we must if we assume Atlantis to have been a historical place – the violence of its sinking makes it improbable that an entire city could have survived plunging more than 600 m into an abyss. Rapid sinking would devastate structures; the persistence of mud just below the surface suggests that the sinking was not to a depth of 600-740 m. Unless we are prepared to jettison Plato's text – the sole source for the story of Atlantis – we cannot identify the features found by Paulina Zelitsky with Atlantis," he explained.

A similar discovery was made off the coast of Yonaguni Island in Japan in 1986. The find was known as the "Yonaguni Monument," an artificial rock formation submerged in prehistory. There, strange megaliths up to 5 stories high were found.

Are the Cuba underwater ruins really the sunken underwater city? Could it be another evidence of the lost mystical Atlantis? Unfortunately, there is simply not enough imagery data, and the ruins might be anything. Interestingly, there seems to have been no real follow-up expedition to the site, which some have seen as rather suspicious and conspiratorial.

Just add it to the list of sites and artifacts ignored by main stream science, because it might not fit into present possibly false narratives, though many would do their best to cram into them. A bunch of cities found under the ocean, might give credence to the biblical global flood account. So, let's not even go there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyEXwE9iNr0

Very interesting ocean floor anomalies. Remnants of buried antediluvian civilization?

Quote from: Amo on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 08:08:43https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyEXwE9iNr0

Very interesting ocean floor anomalies. Remnants of buried antediluvian civilization?

Area seems too large for any buried civilization pre or post flood.

Reminds me of the chisel marks one might see when starting a sculpture and smoothing out the material to start the actual piece.

I focussed more on the smaller ares which he zoomed in upon. Certainly unusually straight and symmetric for the ocean to form. Looks like the ocean sands and silt settled upon something straight and symmetric under it. The long line he followed itself being a wall or raised highway of sorts, if anything at all. We certainly have very long highways and walls. China comes to mind. If we can do it, they most certainly could have. Worth investigation I would say. 

Quote from: Amo on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 12:51:44I focussed more on the smaller ares which he zoomed in upon. Certainly unusually straight and symmetric for the ocean to form. Looks like the ocean sands and silt settled upon something straight and symmetric under it. The long line he followed itself being a wall or raised highway of sorts, if anything at all. We certainly have very long highways and walls. China comes to mind. If we can do it, they most certainly could have. Worth investigation I would say. 

I dont disagree but the area is very large. From what I could see..

SW Austrailia,

Pacific Ocean

South America west of Peru

South America west of Chile

at the 9:15 point Atlantic Ocean between South America and Africa

Then a little more south... South Atlantic ocean

A large area for almost an identical look. 

 

Quote from: Rella on Wed Oct 09, 2024 - 13:09:12I dont disagree but the area is very large. From what I could see..

SW Austrailia,

Pacific Ocean

South America west of Peru

South America west of Chile

at the 9:15 point Atlantic Ocean between South America and Africa

Then a little more south... South Atlantic ocean

A large area for almost an identical look. 

If you think all the separate configurations viewed along the way of the video, have an identical look, then I am not sure you watched entire video. Following the line the video follows, there are many different configurations along side of or next to it. Which is why I suggested the very long line they are all along or next to, could be a very long HWY of sorts, or wall. Such as exist today within many countries. Larger of course, as all would be in a world of giants, compared to us today. Nevertheless, determine as you wish, of course.  

https://www.jpost.com/archaeology/article-736139#google_vignette

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.

QuoteArchaeologists to find lost underwater civilization with magnetic fields

Magnetic data, like seismic data, is collected by those looking to extract energy sources from the sea floor in order to map out the landscape for construction.

Archaeologists at the University of Bradley are using data from the Earth's magnetic field to discover ancient European settlements buried under the North Sea.

According to a report from the university, these scientists are specifically investigating Doggerland, a stretch of land that once connected mainland Europe with the eastern coast of Great Britain. National Geographic's website explains that, approximately 12,000 years ago, what is now ocean was a series of sloping hills, marshland, wooded valleys and swamps.
 
The university already has a team dedicated to studying Doggerland; their project is entitled "Europe's Lost Frontiers." Both the Lost Frontiers data and National Geographic agree that humans once settled Doggerland based on evaluations of tools and other artifacts embedded in the sea floor.

Magnetometry, the research method Urmston will be using, has thus far been primarily used for "terrestrial archaeologists," and this will be one of the few attempts to use it to examine an underwater landscape.

Magnetic data, like seismic data, is collected by those looking to extract energy sources from the sea floor in order to map out the landscape for construction. Offshore wind farming companies, according to the university report, have also begun vying for Doggerland real estate.

The United Kingdom, along with dozens of other nations, took the United Nations pledge to reach net-zero carbon emissions by the year 2050. Part of that initiative involves expanding offshore wind power, which, per the university report, will eventually cause parts of Doggerland to be entirely inaccessible to scientists.

This is why the University of Bradford archaeologists are working with climate scientists and engineers to gather as much data as possible while they still can.

What are archaeologists looking for?

"Small changes in the magnetic field can indicate changes in the landscape," explained Urmston, "such as peat-forming areas and sediments, or where erosion has occurred, for example in river channels." 

According to the university report, Doggerland was one of the most resource-rich and ecologically diverse regions between approximately 20,000BCE - 4,000 BCE. It was buried at the bottom of the ocean by the global warming that marked the end of the last ice age.

Artifacts discovered thus far have been encountered mostly by chance, the university report explained, which means that knowledge of Doggerland's ancient inhabitants remains elusive.
 
"As the area we are studying used to be above sea level, there's a small chance this analysis could even reveal evidence for hunter-gatherer activity," said Urmston. "That would be the pinnacle."

"We might also discover the presence of middens, he continued, "which are rubbish dumps that consist of animal bone, mollusk shells and other biological material, that can tell us a lot about how people lived."

Of course a global flood would have also left many areas once inhabited buried under the oceans and or other large masses of water left over from such an event. Which certain narratives refuse to consider. How convenient as well, that there are already mechanisms in place to prevent research in the future if necessary, to prevent narratives which lean toward supporting biblical historical accuracy from being pursued. As so very many sites are presently ignored, or have been conveniently covered over unto inaccessibility.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/there-are-lost-civilizations-under-the-sea-scientists-want-to-find-them-before-its-too-late/

Another article about civilizations buried under water. Evidences just as easily attributable to the global flood of scripture, as rising sea levels of more deep time scenarios.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/ancient-underwater-ruins-atlantis-0011008

Another, among many more I am sure.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/archaeology/a43852453/scientists-discover-7000-year-old-stone-road-under-sea/

Another

So, I've been reading Stories from Ancient Canaan, and it contains a story called Rephaim, which is also one of the words in the Bible translated as "giants."

It gives some definition to the word beyond the idea of being large, and I figured I'd share.  A few lines from the story

Sun rules the Rephaim,
  Sun rules the divine ones:
Your company are the gods,
  See, the dead are your company.
in the midst of the Rephaim of the underworld
Set up a stela for his divine ancestor, a votive for his clan in the sanctuary
So aside from being giant, this tells us that the Rephaim...

(a) ...were worshiped as gods by the Amorites
(b) ...that the Amorites considered them to be their ancestors
(c) ...that they were real people long dead but now passed into legend

That all works pretty well with what we know from the Bible, where two of the last Rephaim living were kings of the Amorites.

It also brings up a question - are Rephaim (giants) the same thing as Nephilim (giants)?

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Oct 22, 2024 - 11:15:47So, I've been reading Stories from Ancient Canaan, and it contains a story called Rephaim, which is also one of the words in the Bible translated as "giants."

It gives some definition to the word beyond the idea of being large, and I figured I'd share.  A few lines from the story

Code Select Expand

Sun rules the Rephaim,
  Sun rules the divine ones:
Your company are the gods,
  See, the dead are your company.

Code Select Expand

in the midst of the Rephaim of the underworld

Code Select Expand

Set up a stela for his divine ancestor, a votive for his clan in the sanctuary
So aside from being giant, this tells us that the Rephaim...

(a) ...were worshiped as gods by the Amorites
(b) ...that the Amorites considered them to be their ancestors
(c) ...that they were real people long dead but now passed into legend

That all works pretty well with what we know from the Bible, where two of the last Rephaim living were kings of the Amorites.

It also brings up a question - are Rephaim (giants) the same thing as Nephilim (giants)?[/size]

Good question? But the following link calls into more  questions. I bolded a few areas and colored two of interest

https://shreddingtheveil.org/2016/10/25/giants-rephaim-zamzummim-emim-anakim-nephilim-zuzim/

QuoteGiants: Rephaim, Zamzummim, Emim, Amorite, Anakim, Nephilim, Zuzim

It appears that the giants were called by many names, sometimes by the name of the lands they occupied, and other times by their reputation.  So, let's take a closer look at the giants of old.  For the most part, the references are from Young's Literal Translation as the generic translation of the King James loses some of the connotations regarding these giants. (Young's Literal Translation is choppy because it is a direct word-for-word translation of the Hebrew and Greek texts.)

In Genesis 14, about 400 years after the flood, God speaks of battles between some of the kings in the area which Abram and Lot were living.  During one of these battles, Lot and his family are taken captive.  We find,

Gen. 14:5, "And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings who [are] with him, and they smite the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzim in Ham, and the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim,"

The Rephaim and the Emim were giants (tall people) that were occupying the lands after the flood.  As the Zuzim are named with these two tribes, it is probably safe to say that these were also a tribe of giant people.  At the very least they were known to be wicked people.

But, we see here that the giants were again in the land.  That means that Noah or his sons carried the DNA for these tall people, or they would not again be in the land after the flood.

In speaking to Abram in Gen. chap. 15 of the blessings he would have and of the land promised to his descendants through Isaac, the Israelite, God named the people who then occupied that territory.  He told Abram that the iniquity of the Amorite was not yet complete in Gen. 15:16.  So, we can know that the Amorite were a wicked people.

Gen 15:18-21, " 18 In that day hath Jehovah made with Abram a covenant, saying, `To thy seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Phrat,  19 with the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,  20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,  21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.'"

The other tribes listed with the Amorite were included in the area which was promised to Abram's descendants through Isaac, and are therefore classed with the Amorite as also being wicked people.  All of the people of these lands were wicked and evil.

In Deu. chap. 1, Moses recalled the events that led the Israelite to spend forty years in the wilderness because the spies that had been sent into the land reported in fear of the giants.  They did not trust in God to lead them.

Deu 1:28, " whither are we going up? our brethren have melted our heart, saying, A people greater and taller than we, cities great and fenced to heaven, and also sons of Anakim — we have seen there."

Num. 13:22, "And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)

The children of Anak were the Anakim, and they had lived in Hebron.

Num. 13:28-32,

28 only, surely the people which is dwelling in the land [is] strong; and the cities are fenced, very great; and also children of Anak we have seen there.

29 Amalek is dwelling in the land of the south, and the Hittite, and the Jebusite, and the Amorite is dwelling in the hill country, and the Canaanite is dwelling by the sea, and by the side of the Jordan.'

30 And Caleb stilleth the people concerning Moses, and saith, `Let us certainly go up — and we have possessed it; for we are thoroughly able for it.'

31 And the men who have gone up with him said, `We are not able to go up against the people, for it [is] stronger than we;'

32 and they bring out an evil account of the land which they have spied unto the sons of Israel, saying, `The land into which we passed over to spy it, is a land eating up its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in its midst [are] men of stature;

It appears from this report that all of the people of the land of Canaan and Hebron may have been very tall people, or giants.  It may be that certain of them had more stature than others because of the reputation their names are given.

When the forty years of wandering in the wilderness were coming to an end, the Israelite passed through other lands on their way to Canaan.  God told them not to bother certain lands that he had promised to both Esau and Lot. God told them not to disturb Moab, as he had promised the land of Ar to Lot, and relates that that land had been formerly occupied by the Emim.

Deu. 2:10-11, " The Emim formerly have dwelt in it, a people great, and numerous, and tall, as the Anakim;  11 Rephaim they are reckoned, they also, as the Anakim; and the Moabites call them Emim."

The Emim were compared to the Anakim (the sons of Anak), a  great, numerous, and tall people.  So, the Emim, or Rephaim, and Anakim were tribes of very tall people, viewed as giants by the rest of mankind.  People are men and women and children of the species of man.

Again speaking of the land which God gave to Lot –

Deu. 2::20-21, "A land of Rephaim it is reckoned, even it; Rephaim dwelt in it formerly, and the Ammonites call them Zamzummim;  21 a people great, and numerous, and tall, as the Anakim, and Jehovah destroyeth them before them, and they dispossess them, and dwell in their stead,"

So, the Rephaim were called Zamzummim by the Ammonite, and Emim by the Moabite.

After battling the Amorite, and defeating King Sihon, the Israelite turned to the land of King Og of Bashan, and all his kingdom of Argob.

Deu 3:11, "for only Og king of Bashan had been left of the remnant of the Rephaim; lo, his bedstead [is] a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the sons of Ammon? nine cubits its length, and four cubits its breadth, by the cubit of a man."

Og was one of the Rephaim. A common or short cubit was about 18 inches, by the length of an average man's fingertips to his elbow.  The long cubit was 20 -22 inches.  So, if Og's bed was 9 cubits long x 4 cubits wide, then Og had to be able to fit within that length and width.  If we use the short or common cubit of 18 inches, then at a minimum, Og had to be somewhere under 13.5 feet tall in order to lie down on his bed.  If we use the long measure, then Og could have been as tall as 16 feet.

Og was the last of the Rephaim, the same giants whom the Ammonite called the Zamzummim, and whom the Moabite called the Emim.  They were as tall as another tribe of giants, the sons of Anak called the Anakim.  Deu. 4:46-47 says that Og was one of the two kings of the Amorite who were dispossessed, the other being king Sihon.

The Rephaim – known also as Zamzummim, and Emim – were of the Amorite.  Amos 2:9 describes the Amorite's height as being "above the cedars" and they were as strong "as the oaks".

In His instructions to the Israelite in Deu. chap. 9 to cross over the Jordan, God told them that He was giving these lands to them because of the promises to their fathers – Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – and because of the wickedness of the people of the lands; not for their righteousness, but because of the wickedness of these people.  Their entry into the "promised land" was a simultaneous judgment upon the wicked people of those lands.

Deu 9:2-, "a people great and tall, sons of Anakim, whom thou — thou hast known, (and thou — thou hast heard: Who doth station himself before sons of Anak?)  3 and thou hast known to-day, that Jehovah thy God [is] He who is passing over before thee — a fire consuming; He doth destroy them, and He doth humble them before thee, and thou hast dispossessed them, and destroyed them hastily, as Jehovah hath spoken to thee."

No one stood against the sons of Anak, the tall and great people known as the Anakim.  But, with God going before them, the Israelite did.

The forested land and the valley of the Rephaim was given to one half of the tribe of Manasseh, and was on the northern edge or border of the lands of Israel.  (Deu 3:13; Josh. 12:4; 13:12; 15:8; Josh 17:15)

Josh. 11:21-22, " And Joshua cometh at that time, and cutteth off the Anakim from the hill-country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, even from all the hill-country of Judah, and from all the hill-country of Israel; with their cities hath Joshua devoted them.  22 There hath not been left Anakim in the land of the sons of Israel; only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, were they left."

The Anakim, sons of Anak, had inhabited the hill country.  We find in Joshua chap. 14 that Caleb asked Joshua for that hill country where Caleb had destroyed the Anakim, and dispossessed them.  The land was also known as Hebron.

Josh. 14:13-15, " And Joshua blesseth him, and giveth Hebron to Caleb son of Jephunneh for an inheritance,  14 therefore hath Hebron been to Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenezzite for an inheritance unto this day, because that he was fully after Jehovah, God of Israel;  15 and the name of Hebron formerly [is] Kirjath-Arba (he [is] the great man among the Anakim); and the land hath rest from war."

The giants were men, a great and tall people who were wicked in the sight of God.

The valley of the Rephaim was well known, and was the site of some of the battles David fought with the Philistines.  (2 Sam. 5:22; 23:13; 1 Chron. 11:15; 14:9)  The King James calls it the valley of the giants in Josh. 15:8; 18:16 where Young's has Rephaim.

Job, answering the charge of Bildad challenges him in chap. 26:

Job 26:5, "The Rephaim are formed, Beneath the waters, also their inhabitants."

The Vulgate translates this as "Behold the giants, and those who dwell with them, groan from under the waters."  The Septuagint has it, "Are not the giants formed from under the waters, and their neighbors?"  The Chaldee has it, "Can the trembling giants be regenerated, when they and their hosts are under the water?"  And, the King James as, "Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof."

The meaning is clearly of the state of the dead, and was referring to the wicked giants who were drowned in the great flood of Noah's day.  They were dead and gone.  The association is therefore made: valley of the giants; same as the valley of the Rephaim; and, therefore understood as the valley of the dead.

In Psa. 88, the sons of Korah had been praying for the Lord to help them with their afflictions and were asking if He would wait until they were dead before He responded to their petitions.

Psa. 88:10, " To the dead dost Thou do wonders? Do Rephaim rise? do they thank Thee? Selah."

Psa 88:5 speaks of the dead as having been cut off by the Lord, meaning that they had no children or descendants left in the land of the living.  Cut off means no issue, no children.  The Rephaim were dispossessed by Moses, and cut off by the Lord when the tribes of Israel moved into their lands. (Josh. 13:12)  The Rephaim were finished, wiped out at that time, but the land was still frequently called by their name for many generations.  It was famous as "the valley of the Rephaim."

Young's translation of Prov 2:18 remembers the Rephaim. In speaking of a wicked woman who had forsaken God to walk in paths inclined to death, "For her house hath inclined unto death, And unto Rephaim her paths."  The reference is to a dead people who perished because of their wickedness.

Prov. 9:18 speaks of the dead that resided in the depths of hell as the guests of a foolish woman's house, and refers to them as the Rephaim.  "And he hath not known that Rephaim [are] there, In deep places of Sheol her invited ones!"

Rephaim is found in Young's Literal Translation in several other places and refers to the dead, or likens wicked people to their dead state, which was the result of their wicked ways.  The meaning is clear.  God considers anyone compared to the Rephaim as being dead.  (See Prov. 21:16, Is. 14:9; 17:5; 26:14; 26:19)

Young's translated the word "Nephilim"  in only one place, and that was in Numbers 13:33.  In that verse it is a clear reference to giants.  Moses sent the spies into the land of Canaan to bring back a report, and they gave an account of the Nephilim, sons of Anak.

Num 13: 33, "and there we saw the Nephilim, sons of Anak, of the Nephilim; and we are in our own eyes as grasshoppers; and so we were in their eyes.'"

The name "Nephilim" was of the same people called the "Anakim", sons of Anak.  Young's only has it this one time.  He did not use it in Gen 6:4; where the King James has "giants", Young's has "fallen ones."  The best reasoning for this difference is that the word "nephilim" is from the root word "nephal," meaning he fell.

Nephilim is the transliteration of Strong's Heb 5303, "נְפִילִים" ; and Strong's concordance has "Or nphil {nef-eel'}; from naphal; properly, a feller, i.e. A bully or tyrant — giant."  Source: Biblehub

The giants had become bullies and wicked people most probably because their height and strength gave them advantage over others, which they then used for selfish, evil purposes.  Remember that saying – absolute power corrupts absolutely ?  They used their power and strength for evil, and became fallen ones – fallen from grace.  The fallen ones were (and still are) those people who became wicked children of wrath (Eph. 2:3) and children of disobedience (Eph. 5:6).

The context of the scriptures in Gen 6 governed the translation.  Numbers 13:33 was discussing a tribe of giant people called by two names, Nephilim and Anakim.  Genesis 6 was discussing the fallen state and wickedness of all mankind.  Young's translation stayed with the context of the scriptures in Gen 6 and did not limit the wicked people to just the giants.  All of the people had become wicked, and had fallen away from God.

Gen. 6:3, " And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man — to the age; in their erring they [are] flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years."

God's spirit was not going to strive, or fight against the spirit of wicked men for much longer.  He gave them 120 years to repent.

Romans 8:13-14, "for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;  14 for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God;

We have a clear definition of sons of God in Romans chapter 8.  They are the ones who follow after and are led by God's spirit.

Genesis chap. 5 presented the lineage of those led by the spirit of God, the faithful line of Adam and his son, Seth through the faithful Noah and his sons.  These were led by the spirit of God, and were therefore the Sons of God called in Gen 6.

There is no other acceptable conclusion than that the sons of God in Gen 6:2 were the faithful men of God who unwisely chose women of the unfaithful, and wicked men who lived according to the flesh.

To argue otherwise, that the sons of God in Gen 6:2, and 6:4 were fallen angels is to say that sons of God are not led by the spirit of God.  This is a contradiction of the scriptures!  They cannot be fallen angels, led by lusts of the flesh, and at the same time be sons of God led by the spirit of God!

Genesis chap 6 was not discussing fallen angels, but fallen, wicked, earth-born men.  Wicked men, wicked mankind is the subject matter of Genesis 6. The King James should not have used the word "giants" in Gen 6:4, and the NIV should not have used the transliterated word "Nephilim."

The NIV and other English translations which use "Nephilim" in Gen. 6:4 are not translating it.  They should have translated it as fallen mankind so that we would have the full connotation of that word as sinful, earth-born wicked men and women!  The correct translation is Young's as "the fallen ones."

The so-called Book of Enoch is a fabrication.  It contradicts God's word, and cannot be relied upon for any information.  You might as well be discussing Jack and the Beanstalk, or Paul Bunyan and mining these fairy tales for secrets in God's word.  It is the same thing as delving into the Book of Enoch.  The Book of Enoch is a fairy tale.

God used a smaller, weaker people (the Israelite) to overcome a stronger, and much taller people – the wicked giants – and thereby showed His power, and proof of existence to all of the people of those lands.  It was a testimony of His existence to all people.

The DNA for tall or giant people is still carried throughout the blood line of mankind.  Goliath, at 6 cubits and a span, was about 9-1/2 ft tall. (1 Sam. 17:4)  We have people today who are sometimes 7 feet tall.  We see it occur now and then in each generation.

See other posts at the right margin including "Nephilim...Fallen Ones?", Nephilim...Reprise: And The Sons of God", and "The Book of Enoch – Fable or Truth".  All bold emphasis is mine.

(Expanded and edited May 2018.)

Quote from: Rella on Wed Oct 23, 2024 - 06:24:36Good question? But the following link calls into more  questions. I bolded a few areas and colored two of interest

https://shreddingtheveil.org/2016/10/25/giants-rephaim-zamzummim-emim-anakim-nephilim-zuzim/

Thanks for sharing the fascinating article.

Quote from: articleThe meaning is clearly of the state of the dead, and was referring to the wicked giants who were drowned in the great flood of Noah's day.  They were dead and gone.  The association is therefore made: valley of the giants; same as the valley of the Rephaim; and, therefore understood as the valley of the dead.

The Rephaim are definitely dead, but the reference to waters isn't necessarily to a flood.  In most mythologies men pass into the underworld through waters.  For the Greeks, it's the river Styx.  The Babylonian underworld is the Absu (abyss) which is made of water. 

Even in the Bible, Sheol has a strong affinity with waters.  For instance, in the book of Jonah, the prophet goes down to Sheol by means of the great fish, and he is entangled by seaweed there.  But I digress...

From reading their mythology, I now know that the Amorites don't conceive of their Rephaim as outsiders or coming from somewhere else... they certainly don't think of them as angels who fell.  Kind of the opposite - in their stories they start as men, and they become divine after their death.

Anyway, the article takes issue with Enoch at the end, but I think the author is trying to understand Enoch too literally.  He has (correctly) interpreted the Bible's giants to be men, but has not extended the same interpretation to Enoch's angels and giants.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Oct 23, 2024 - 12:24:31Thanks for sharing the fascinating article.
The Rephaim are definitely dead, but the reference to waters isn't necessarily to a flood.  In most mythologies men pass into the underworld through waters.  For the Greeks, it's the river Styx.  The Babylonian underworld is the Absu (abyss) which is made of water. 

Even in the Bible, Sheol has a strong affinity with waters.  For instance, in the book of Jonah, the prophet goes down to Sheol by means of the great fish, and he is entangled by seaweed there.  But I digress...

From reading their mythology, I now know that the Amorites don't conceive of their Rephaim as outsiders or coming from somewhere else... they certainly don't think of them as angels who fell.  Kind of the opposite - in their stories they start as men, and they become divine after their death.

Anyway, the article takes issue with Enoch at the end, but I think the author is trying to understand Enoch too literally.  He has (correctly) interpreted the Bible's giants to be men, but has not extended the same interpretation to Enoch's angels and giants.

What I want to know is why archeologists never turn up a giant bone?

If there were all these tall people... even just 7 to 8 ft tall... where are the bones?

They cannot all have been eaten........

Or any others from Gen forward.....?

The discussion surrounding the Rephaim and their connection to thunderworld raises intriguing points about ancient beliefs and interpretations of scripture. The Rephaim, often associated with giants in biblical texts, are also linked to the spirits of the dead in various Near Eastern mythologies, suggesting a dual identity that reflects both their earthly existence and their afterlife.
Underworld Associations
In many ancient cultures, including the Babylonian and Ugaritic traditions, the underworld is depicted as a watery realm. The Rephaim are frequently mentioned in relation to Sheol, where they are seen as shades or spirits of the deceased. This connection emphasizes a common theme across mythologies: the transition into the afterlife often involves crossing through waters, symbolizing a passage from the living world to the realm of the dead.
The Nature of the Rephaim
The text highlights that the Amorites viewed the Rephaim not as outsiders or fallen angels but as men who became divine after death. This perspective contrasts with some interpretations of biblical giants, suggesting that these figures were once mortal and gained a form of divinity posthumously. This notion aligns with other ancient beliefs where heroes or significant figures were venerated after death, further complicating our understanding of their role in mythology.
Enoch and Interpretation
The commentary on Enoch's portrayal of angels and giants suggests that there may be a tendency to interpret these figures too literally. While some scholars view the giants as human beings, they may overlook similar interpretations regarding angels in Enoch's writings. This inconsistency raises questions about how we approach ancient texts and their symbolism.
Conclusion
In summary, the Rephaim serve as a fascinating example of how ancient cultures understood life, death, and divinity. Their dual identity as both giants and spirits reflects a complex interplay between mortality and the afterlife. As we explore these themes further, it becomes clear that interpretations can vary widely based on cultural context and textual analysis, inviting ongoing dialogue about their significance in both mythology and scripture.



_________________________

Quote from: podnad on Thu Oct 24, 2024 - 08:38:15The discussion surrounding the Rephaim and their connection to thunderworld raises intriguing points about ancient beliefs and interpretations of scripture. The Rephaim, often associated with giants in biblical texts, are also linked to the spirits of the dead in various Near Eastern mythologies, suggesting a dual identity that reflects both their earthly existence and their afterlife.
Underworld Associations
In many ancient cultures, including the Babylonian and Ugaritic traditions, the underworld is depicted as a watery realm. The Rephaim are frequently mentioned in relation to Sheol, where they are seen as shades or spirits of the deceased. This connection emphasizes a common theme across mythologies: the transition into the afterlife often involves crossing through waters, symbolizing a passage from the living world to the realm of the dead.
The Nature of the Rephaim
The text highlights that the Amorites viewed the Rephaim not as outsiders or fallen angels but as men who became divine after death. This perspective contrasts with some interpretations of biblical giants, suggesting that these figures were once mortal and gained a form of divinity posthumously. This notion aligns with other ancient beliefs where heroes or significant figures were venerated after death, further complicating our understanding of their role in mythology.
Enoch and Interpretation
The commentary on Enoch's portrayal of angels and giants suggests that there may be a tendency to interpret these figures too literally. While some scholars view the giants as human beings, they may overlook similar interpretations regarding angels in Enoch's writings. This inconsistency raises questions about how we approach ancient texts and their symbolism.
Conclusion
In summary, the Rephaim serve as a fascinating example of how ancient cultures understood life, death, and divinity. Their dual identity as both giants and spirits reflects a complex interplay between mortality and the afterlife. As we explore these themes further, it becomes clear that interpretations can vary widely based on cultural context and textual analysis, inviting ongoing dialogue about their significance in both mythology and scripture.

Did you write this just now, or are you quoting from somewhere else?  If you are quoting, you should cite your source.

Another interesting article....

The Riddle of the Rephaim

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/the-riddle-of-the-rephaim/

Exploring the mysterious demigods of the Bible

 Jonathan Yogev  March 08, 2023  3 Comments  17392 views  Share

An illustration of the War in Heaven for Milton's Paradise Lost by Gustave Doré. {{PD-US}}

The identification of the beings known as "Rephaim" in biblical and ancient Near Eastern sources has caused much bewilderment throughout the years. Biblical dictionaries and encyclopedias usually provide two main meanings for the word: (1) ghosts or shades of the dead, and (2) a mythical and ancient race of giants. These meanings are mostly derived from the mentions of the Rephaim in the Bible.

The Rephaim appear in the Bible in a variety of contexts. Here are some examples (author's translation):

Only King Og of the Bashan was left of the remaining Rephaim. His bedstead, an iron bedstead, is now in Rabbah of the Ammonites; it is nine cubits long and four cubits wide, by a standard cubit.

Deuteronomy 3:11

 

After this, fighting broke out with the Philistines at Gezer; that was when Sibbecai the Hushathite killed Sipai, a descendant of the Rephaim, and they were humbled.

1 Chronicles 20:4

 

Do you work wonders for the dead? Do Rephaim rise to praise you?

Psalm 88:11-12

 

It will save you from the forbidden woman, from the alien woman whose talk is smooth. ... Her house sinks down to Death, and her course leads to the Rephaim.

Proverbs 2:16-18

 

The dead will not live, the Rephaim will not rise, you punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.

Isaiah 26:14

 

Were the Rephaim great warriors or leaders, such as King Og or the Philistine generals? Were they affiliated with a certain nation or people? Is the word Rephaim a synonym for the dead? Why were they considered to be so frightening in the afterlife? And why did God take it upon himself to punish and destroy them?

If we go over the dozens of references to the Rephaim in the Bible, we see that it is very difficult to reach a single clear conclusion about their identity. Luckily, we have other sources from the ancient Near East that mention them. The first source is the Ugaritic texts, written in alphabetic cuneiform. These texts were mostly found in the ancient city of Ugarit in northern Syria in the mid-20th century. They tell much of the mythical concepts and belief systems of the people who lived there during the Bronze Age until the destruction of the city (c. 1200 B.C.E.). Some of these concepts are also known from the Bible, such as rituals associated with the gods Baal and Asherah.

What do we know of the Rephaim in Ugaritic texts? They are heroes, warriors, judges, kings, and demigods, much like Heracles or Theseus in Greek myths. They are beloved and celebrated both by gods and men, in life and death.


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The word Rephaim is also found in three Phoenician burial inscriptions. These inscriptions share similar concepts with the Ugaritic texts: The Rephaim were ancient heroes and kings, and once they perished, they dwelled together in a specific place in the underworld.

Although we have plenty of sources that mention the Rephaim, scholars still debate their identity. The Rephaim have been affiliated with or depicted as: (1) shades of the dead or a specific group among the dead; (2) healers or physicians; (3) ancestors; (4) kings, rulers, judges, heroes, and generals; (5) gods or demigods; (6) giants or titans; (7) an ethnic group or tribe; and (8) household gods (biblical teraphim) or fertility deities.

In my recent study, I tried to unlock the riddle of the Rephaim in the ancient Near East using two main keys.1 The first is to prioritize the archaeological evidence, namely ancient inscriptions, which depict the Rephaim in a clearer sense than the Bible, which was edited and corrected according to different agendas over hundreds of years.

The second is to analyze the negative treatment of the Rephaim in the Bible. Whenever we encounter the Rephaim in biblical texts, they are either dead or being killed, enemies of Israel and of God, giants, monstrous humans, and objects of terror. It seems that although the Rephaim were highly regarded by many ancient Near Eastern peoples, they were hated and reviled by the biblical authors. What is it about them that causes God to struggle against them and their memory, and why are they still demonized long after death?

The fact that the Rephaim are considered to be demigods and the mortal descendants of the gods in the ancient Levant could not be tolerated through mono�theistic perceptions. Monotheistic belief systems were fragile in ancient Israel and caused great dispute among the people, prophets, priests, and monarchy. The idea that some men might be divine or descendants of God was thought outrageous, as presented in Genesis 6:1-4, when a race of heroes (Nephilim) with divine blood is born to the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men."a This race is later identified with giants and Rephaim whom the biblical writers believe need to be eliminated. This can also be demonstrated through the eyes of the prophets, who ridicule foreign kings who presented themselves as gods (see Isaiah 14:1-23; Ezekiel 28:1-9).

The Rephaim can be found in various places throughout the Levant, including Canaan, Philistia, Judah, Ammon, Moab, Bashan, Syria, and Phoenicia. This suggests a shared concept, which likely originated in a single place and then spread to different societies in the ancient Levant. The concept identifies a beloved ruler as a part of an ancient divine bloodline of mortal heroes, which provides justification for his own bloodline to rule.

In biblical texts, however, the idea of a semi-divine monarch or a leader cannot be tolerated. The concept of the Rephaim needed to be eradicated from the belief system of Israel and Judah, and this explains the negative treatment they receive in the Bible, which is the complete opposite of how they are viewed in Ugaritic and Phoenician sources.

Notes:
1. See Jonathan Yogev, The Rephaim: Sons of the Gods, Culture and History of the Ancient Near East 121 (Leiden: Brill, 2021).

a. See, e.g., Jaap Doedens, Biblical Profiles: "Exploring the Story of the Sons of God," BAR, Summer 2020.

Jonathan Yogev is a lecturer in the Bible Department at Kaye Academic College of Education in Beersheba, Israel.

OK, this is the last I will post because it firms up my mind of the existence of Giants.....

And then begs why? What was their purpose.

God obviously had them come into being. But just a strange idea.
If the days stretched longer in Genesis, Creation, as was suggested by...
I am sorry I dont remember his name.... recently....

Is it possible God had a creation that came before he wanted Adam ?
Could earth have been for a different purpose before ?


They just found a large dinosaur bone in Hong Kong.

145 million to 66 million years ago,

Then https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2022/08/27/europe-largest-dinosaur-bones-portugal/7907212001/

A man found dinosaur bones in his yard. It could lead to largest skeleton ever found in Europe

The creature discovered likely lived 100 to 160 million years ago and measured roughly 39 feet tall and 82 feet long, the researchers said.

Then

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/meet-cooper-largest-dinosaur-bones-unearthed-australia-180977927/

Two Farmers Found the Largest Dinosaur Ever Unearthed in Australia

While other titanosaur species were found in Australia before, Cooper is significantly larger. It is estimated that Cooper weighed 70 tons, stood at two stories tall, and measured 82 to 98 feet in length—or about the size of a basketball court, the New York Times reports.

All really really big... and their bones are found.

But no human bones of said giants ever?? WHY?

It is certain that Noah never put these dinosaur things on the Ark?

It is almost as if earth had two, or more purposes?

See this article...

https://knowingscripture.com/articles/giants-in-the-land-a-biblical-theology-of-the-nephilim-anakim-rephaim-and-goliath

Giants in the Land: A Biblical Theology of the Nephilim, Anakim, Rephaim (and Goliath)

Zachary Garris  Giants, 1-2 Samuel
Christians, including many pastors and scholars, tend to gloss over the references to giants in the Bible. Yet giants play an important role in the biblical story, particularly in relation to their occupation of the Promised Land. As will be seen, Israel initially refused to enter the land because of giants, and only men of great faith (Joshua, Caleb, and David) were able to defeat them. 

The Sons of God and Giant Nephilim (Genesis 6:1-4)

The first mention of giants in the Bible is the Nephilim in Genesis 6:1-4. I have previously argued that the "sons of God" were spirit beings that mated with women and produced the Nephilim. The phrase "sons of God" elsewhere refers to spirit beings/angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), and Genesis 6:1-2 contrasts this group with all of mankind (not some subset such as Cain's line), meaning they are non-human. The common view that this was the mixing of the lines of Seth and Cain assumes that everyone in Seth's line was godly and everyone in Cain's line was wicked. This is not something the text ever claims. Furthermore, alternative views (also including the kingly-line view) fail to explain how this intermarriage produced mighty (giant) warriors:

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown (Genesis 6:4). 

It is important to note that Genesis 6:4 never explicitly calls the Nephilim "giants." However, the Nephilim have often been considered giants because of the description of the giants in the land as those who come from the Nephilim in Numbers 13:32-33. Also, the Septuagint translates both the Hebrew נְּפִלִ֞ים (Nephilim) and גִּבֹּרִ֛ים (gibborim, "mighty men" or "men of renown") in Genesis 6:4 as γίγαντες (gigantes, "giants").[1] (It may be that the Septuagint translated Nephilim as "giants" because of the account in Numbers 13, though some think Nephilim comes from the Aramaic word naphiyla for giant.[2])

Whether descendants of the Nephilim were actually in the land of Canaan is uncertain, as the Israelite spies may have been exaggerating their account. However, exaggeration is unlikely because Genesis 6:4 says the Nephilim were on the earth "in those days, and also afterward" and the link between the Anakim and Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 seems to be an editorial comment (possibly referring back to Numbers 6:4). At minimum, the claim in Numbers 13:33 shows that the Israelites were aware that the Nephilim of old had a reputation of being giants (more on this below).

In the context of Genesis 6, God sent the flood to wipe out violent humans, including the Nephilim, seen in the language of "all flesh" (Genesis 6:12-13). God continued the human race through Noah, a new Adam, who was not tainted by Nephilim blood. Noah's direct lineage is given all the way back to Adam (Genesis 5:1-32), and he is said to be "blameless in his generations" (Genesis 6:9), possibly referring to his pure line—notice the plural "generations" (דֹֽרֹתָ֑יו). In spite of the flood, giants eventually made a comeback and dwelt in the land of Canaan.

Nephilim and Anakim in the Land of Canaan (Numbers 13:21-33)

Numbers 13 is the key passage on giants in the land of Canaan. When Israel left Egypt and was in the wilderness seeking to enter the Promised Land, Moses sent 12 Israelite spies (one from each tribe) to Canaan. The spies were to scout out the land and assess "whether the people who dwell in it are strong or weak" (Numbers 13:18). The spies returned to Moses after 40 days and gave a good report about the land—"It flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit" (Numbers 13:27). However, they gave a bad report about the people in the land:

However, the people who dwell in the land are strong, and the cities are fortified and very large. And besides, we saw the descendants of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the Negeb. The Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the hill country. And the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and along the Jordan (Numbers 13:28-29).

Caleb, one of the spies, urged Israel to go up and occupy the land, but the other spies (except Joshua) said they were not able because the people there were stronger (Numbers 13:30-31). Then the "bad report" got even worse:

The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them (Numbers 13:32-33).

The spies lacked faith and were rightly judged for their unbelief. Israel was made to wander the wilderness for 40 years (one year for each day of spying) so that the adults would all die out. God even killed the 10 unfaithful spies with a plague, sparing only Caleb and Joshua (Numbers 14:20-38). However, what concerns us here is the report of giants in the land. Was their report accurate? If so, this would help explain why the spies were so fearful.

While it is possible that the spies were exaggerating their account of the people in the land, this exaggeration must be limited. This is because Moses confirms the spies' account in Deuteronomy 9:1-2, where he says that Israel would cross the Jordan to "dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, cities great and fortified up to heaven, a people great and tall, the sons of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you have heard it said, 'Who can stand before the sons of Anak?'" (cf. Deuteronomy 1:28; 2:10). The people in the land, particularly the Anakim, were in fact tall and mighty.

Who were the Anakim? They were descendants of a man name Anak, whom we are told had three sons, Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai (Joshua 15:14; Judges 1:10, 20). Joshua later devoted the Anakim to destruction, only leaving them in Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod (Joshua 11:21-22). (1 Samuel 17:4 says that Goliath was from Gath, leading us to conclude he was a descendant of Anak.) Caleb is said to have driven out the Anakim from Hebron (Joshua 14:12; 15:14; Judges 1:20), a city that was formerly called Kiriath-arba, named after Arba, who "was the greatest man among the Anakim" (Joshua 14:15; cf. Judges 1:10).

Numbers 13:33 mentions that these sons of Anak "come from the Nephilim" (which is the only explicit connection between the Anakim and Nephilim in Scripture). Is this claim correct? Since Moses never mentions the Anakim as coming from the Nephilim, this may be the part that the spies fabricated in order to support their case against entering the land. However, there are three reasons for believing the statement in Numbers 13:33 is correct and that the Anakim in fact came from the Nephilim:

Genesis 6:4 says the Nephilim were on the earth at a later time—"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward." The "afterward" is presumably after the flood. Numbers 13:33 is the only other mention of Nephilim in Scripture, so this would explain the comment in Genesis 6:4.

The spies' claim to have seen the Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 is followed with what reads like an editorial comment that seeks to connect the reference of the "sons of Anak" in 13:28 with the reference to Nephilim in 13:33—"the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim." In this case, the author of Numbers considered the spies' report of the Nephilim accurate and then added his own explanation that the Anakim came from the Nephilim.

This connection between Anakim and the Nephilim in Numbers 13:33 is the only apparent explanation as to why some of the Canaanites were so tall. While some scholars suggest that these were only giants relative to the shorter Israelites (meaning six feet would be tall), Og's bed and Goliath's height suggest these were in fact genuine giants over nine feet tall (see below).

If the giants in the land came from the Nephilim, how did this happen when the Nephilim were wiped out in the flood? While some argue that the flood was only local, this would still be an unlikely explanation because the flood was intended to wipe out the Nephilim in Genesis 6. Thus there are two likely explanations: (1) The same event transpired later in history, as spirit beings again bred with women and produced more Nephilim; (2) Nephilim genes were passed down through Noah's daughters-in-law. These wives of Ham, Shem, and Japheth were not descended from Noah and thus potentially had Nephilim genes in them.

Moses Defeats Og of Bashan, One of the Last Rephaim (Deuteronomy 3)

Israel was afraid of the giants in the land of Canaan, and it would have to be a later generation that dealt with the giants under Joshua's leadership. However, Israel still had to deal with a giant while in the in the wilderness, Og of Bashan. As Israel went up the way to Bashan, King Og came out against them for battle.

Yahweh gave Og into Israel's hand, and they "devoted" Og's people to destruction (herem), leaving no survivors, just as they had done to Sihon king of the Amorites (Deuteronomy 3:6). (This victory is celebrated in Psalm 135:11 and 136:20.) We are told that both Og and Sihon were considered Amorite kings (Deuteronomy 3:8). Then we read this fascinating verse:

For only Og the king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bed was a bed of iron. Is it not in Rabbah of the Ammonites? Nine cubits was its length, and four cubits its breadth, according to the common cubit (Deuteronomy 3:11).

Seeing that a cubit was about 18 inches, Og's bed was about 13 feet 6 inches long. This suggests he was a giant. On top of this, Og is said to be the last remnant of the Rephaim. Both Joshua 12:4 and 13:12 also say Og was of the remnant of the Rephaim, which the LXX interestingly translates as "giants" (γιγάντων).

Who were the Rephaim? They were likely the descendants of a giant named Rapha. Rapha (רָפָה) is mentioned six times in the Bible (2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20, 22; 1 Chronicles 20:6, 8), in contrast to the more common plural Rephaim (רְפָאִ֥ים). Though some translations like the ESV take this as "giants," Rapha is probably a proper name.

Deuteronomy 2 provides some interesting information about the Rephaim. It says the Rephaim were as "tall as the Anakim," but were mostly wiped out by Yahweh (Deuteronomy 2:21). The Ammonites called the Rephaim by the name "Zamzummim" (Deuteronomy 2:20). Deuteronomy 2:10-11 says that the "Emim" were also as "tall as the Anakim," but then it says that both the Anakim and Emim "are also counted as Rephaim." This is important, as it links the Anakim with the Rephaim. While Og was one of the last of the Rephaim, there were still Rephaim in the land, namely the Anakim and the "descendants of Rapha" in 2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20, 22.

The prior information sheds interesting light on Genesis 14:5-7, where Chedorlaomer "defeated the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh-kiriathaim, and the Horites in their hill country of Seir," in addition to defeating Amalekites and Amorites. It seems Chedorlaomer fought three groups of giants—the Rephaim (the Septuagint actually translates Rephaim in Genesis 14:5 as γίγαντας, "giants"), the Zuzim (which is probably the Zamzummim of Deuteronomy 2:20), and the Emim (Deuteronomy 2:10-11). The Amorites may also have been giants. Amos 2:9-10 says, "the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars," and Og was also an Amorite (Deuteronomy 3:8). 

What is all the more fascinating is that Abraham then went and defeated Chedorlaomer—the giant killer—in order to rescue his nephew Lot (Genesis 14:14-17). These groups, including the Amalekites, Amorites, and Anakim-Rephaim, were still in the land during the time of Joshua (Numbers 13:29, 33). Thus Abraham's victory in Genesis 14 is a foretaste of Joshua's later victories over the giants in the land of Canaan.

It is of note that the region of Bashan was in the land of the Rephaim. Og was king of Bashan, and Og was one of the Rephaim giants. But Deuteronomy 3:13 makes this land connection explicit—"The rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, the kingdom of Og, that is, all the region of Argob, I gave to the half-tribe of Manasseh. (All that portion of Bashan is called the land of Rephaim . . . " Scripture calls this both the "land of the Rephaim" (Joshua 17:15) and the "Valley of Rephaim" (Joshua 18:16; 2 Samuel 5:18, 22; 23:13; 1 Chronicles 11:15; 14:9; Isaiah 17:5). Bashan is seen as a place of darkness in the Old Testament and may even be called the "mountain of the gods" (Psalm 68:15). The Hebrew הַר־אֱ֭לֹהִים (har elohim) can be translated as "mountain of God" (as per the ESV) or "mountain of gods" (so false gods/spirit beings) which may make more sense due to the negative associations with Bashan elsewhere.

The Rephaim are also associated in the OT with Sheol, the place of the dead. They are said to be inhabitants of Sheol in the following passages: Isaiah 14:9; 26:14, 19; Psalm 88:10; Job 26:5-6; Proverbs 2:18; 9:18; 21:16. The Hebrew Rephaim is in every one of these passages, yet you would never see this in the English if reading translations like the ESV, NASB, or KJV. Instead, the ESV uses words like "shades," "dead," and "departed." If we leave Rephaim untranslated, this may reveal the role of the dead giants in Sheol, which is distinguished from other dead beings there. The Rephaim are said to rise up to greet the Babylonians when they sink down to Sheol in death (Isaiah 14:9). The false gods that Israelites at times worshipped are described as dead Rephaim that will not rise (Isaiah 26:14). The Psalmist asks whether the Rephaim will rise up to praise God (Psalm 88:10-11; cf. 88:3). The other passages highlight the Rephaim as inhabitants of Sheol (Job 26:5-6; Proverbs 2:18; 9:18; 21:16).

Joshua and Caleb Drive Out the Anakim (Joshua 11; 14–15)

Once Israel entered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership, they had to face the Anakim that the spies in Numbers 13 had feared 40 years prior. Joshua had to be strong and courageous, but with Yahweh fighting for them, he was able to drive out the Canaanites, including the giants (Deuteronomy 1:30-31).

Joshua and Caleb were the only two of the 12 spies who believed that Yahweh would give them victory over the giants in the land (Numbers 13:30; 14:6-9), and thus they were the only two allowed to enter the land 40 years later (Numbers 14:30). It is therefore fitting that Joshua and Caleb drove out those giants, which they did by faith in Yahweh:

And Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua devoted them to destruction with their cities. There was none of the Anakim left in the land of the people of Israel. Only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod did some remain (Joshua 11:21-22).

Joshua cut off the Anakim and "devoted" (herem) them to destruction (Joshua 11:21), thus carrying out Yahweh's command for Israel to "devote" the Canaanites to destruction (Deuteronomy 7:1-2). This practice is known as "the ban," or simply by its Hebrew term חרם (herem), which means to "devote" something to God. The Israelites were to kill the Canaanites as an offering to Yahweh. Though not the primary point of God's command, the destruction of the Canaanites included the giants who were in the land. Joshua only left the Anakim in three Philistine cities—Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod (Joshua 11:22).

Caleb went to Joshua and said that he was as strong at 85 years of age as he was at 45, after 40 years of wandering in the wilderness (Joshua 14:6-11). Caleb then asked Joshua for Hebron, the land of the Anakim:

So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said. Then Joshua blessed him, and he gave Hebron to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance. Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite to this day, because he wholly followed the LORD, the God of Israel. Now the name of Hebron formerly was Kiriath-arba. (Arba was the greatest man among the Anakim.) And the land had rest from war (Joshua 14:12-15).

Hebron was the land of the three sons of Anak (Numbers 13:22). So Caleb received the land of Hebron and drove out the "three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak" (Joshua 15:14; cf. Judges 1:10, 20). Together, Joshua and Caleb drove out the giants that the 10 other spies feared 40 years before.

David Kills Goliath (1 Samuel 17)

As we have seen, Joshua left some Anakim remaining in the Philistine cities of Gath, Gaza, and Ashdod (Joshua 11:22). This is significant for several reasons. First, this means the task that God gave Israel to drive out the Canaanites was not complete (seen more clearly in Judges 1–2). Second, the Philistines, with whom the Anakim remained, became Israel's chief enemy during the time of Samuel. And third, the Philistines' champion in 1 Samuel 17 was from Gath.

This puts David's battle with Goliath in proper context. Goliath was from Gath, one of the three Philistine cities where Anakim remained. Goliath also receives the most explicit description of a giant in all of Scripture:

And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. And he had bronze armor on his legs, and a javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron (1 Samuel 17:4-7).

David did not just defeat some random giant that Saul and the Israelites feared. Rather, Goliath was a remnant of the Anakim that Israel was supposed to drive out of the land of Canaan. The Anakim apparently became aligned with Israel's new enemy, the Philistines. In killing Goliath, David was finishing the task of herem in Deuteronomy 7 that Joshua began to carry out.

Moreover, Goliath is called a gibbor (גִּבּוֹר), a "mighty man," in 1 Samuel 17:51, associating him with the gibborim-Nephilim of Genesis 6:4. (The ESV translates gibbor as "champion" in 1 Samuel 17:51, but this is a different Hebrew word than that for "champion" in 17:4.) David, of course, proved to be his own gibbor in defeating Goliath (1 Samuel 16:18).

There has been much discussion over Goliath's height. The Hebrew text says he was six cubits and a span tall. A cubit was approximately 18 inches and a span nine inches, making Goliath 9 feet 9 inches tall. Many scholars prefer the reading of the Septuagint and an early Hebrew manuscript from Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls), both of which say that Goliath was only four cubits and a span, or about 6'9". In general, we should prefer the Hebrew Masoretic Text, unless we have good reason to go with alternate readings. There are problems with the MT textual tradition of 1-2 Samuel, so there may be a good reason to favor the alternate readings.[3]

However, thinking 9'9" is too tall for a giant is not a good reason to reject the Hebrew text. We already saw that Og of Bashan had a bed that was over 13 feet long, which cannot be explained well if he were under seven feet tall. This should at least make us open to the idea of Goliath being closer to 10 feet tall. The four cubit and a span reading (6'9") would make Goliath's height less impressive, nine inches shorter than the five cubit (7'6") Egyptian man killed by Benaiah, one of David's mighty men (gibborim) (1 Chronicles 11:23-24).

There is the possibility that the Septuagint used the longer Egyptian cubit in its description, meaning the Septuagint was essentially in agreement with the Hebrew.[4] The alternative is that there are two variant manuscript traditions, with one of them in error. Most text critical scholars seem to favor the Septuagint and Hebrew DSS reading, but this position is not certain (and still has to explain why the MT has a different number). One principle of text criticism is to prefer the harder reading, and the 9'9" measurement is certainly the harder reading.

It is also important to mention that Goliath wore "scale armor" (שִׁרְי֥וֹן קַשְׂקַשִּׂ֖ים, shiryon qasqasim) (1 Samuel 17:5). This armor weighed over 125 pounds, implying he was massive. Everywhere the term קַשְׂקַשִּׂ֖ים (qasqasim) is used in the OT, it means "scales" (Leviticus 11:9-10, 12; Deuteronomy 14:9-10; Ezekiel 29:4). The ESV only makes one exception, as it translates the word as "coat of mail" here in 1 Samuel 17:5. Though this translation is understandable because chain mail would resemble scales, it obscures an important connection with the serpent (and possibly Dagon).

Scale armor ramps up the significance, as it connects Goliath with the serpent himself. Goliath was the seed of the serpent, and David was of the seed of the woman. Whether Goliath was the biological offspring of the serpent (through the Nephilim) or merely the spiritual offspring, there is a connection with Genesis 3:15. David killed Goliath with a stone to the head, and then he cut off Goliath's head (1 Samuel 17:48-51). David, the seed of the woman, crushed the head of the seed of the serpent. Thus David's defeat of Goliath is ultimately a picture of Christ conquering the devil.

The scale armor may also connect Goliath with the Philistine god Dagon, who was possibly a god of the sea. Goliath had cursed David "by his gods," but in the end it was Goliath who was cursed (1 Samuel 17:43). Like his god Dagon, Goliath fell facedown and his head was cut off (1 Samuel 17:49-51; cf. 5:3-4). Israel's first king, Saul, fought a serpent in his first battle against Nahash (Hebrew "serpent"), king of the Ammonites, and here David faced his own serpent. David passed the test by defeating the giant serpent and cutting off his head. David was better than Saul, the tall man who feared the Philistine giant (1 Samuel 17:11).

David and His Men Finish Off the Giants (2 Samuel 21; 1 Chronicles 20)

In addition to Goliath, David and his men killed four other giants—all from Gath:

. . . And Ishbi-benob, one of the descendants of the giants, whose spear weighed three hundred shekels of bronze, and who was armed with a new sword, thought to kill David. But Abishai the son of Zeruiah came to his aid and attacked the Philistine and killed him . . . Then Sibbecai the Hushathite struck down Saph, who was one of the descendants of the giants. And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. And there was again war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand, and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number, and he also was descended from the giants. And when he taunted Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimei, David's brother, struck him down. These four were descended from the giants in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants (2 Samuel 21:15-22).

Comparing the parallel passage of 1 Chronicles 20:4-8, we observe the following about these giants. Abishai killed the giant Ishbi-benob. Sibbecai killed the giant Saph. (1 Chronicles 20:4 says Sippai, which is probably a variant of the same name). Elhanan killed Goliath the Gittite (though 1 Chronicles 20:5 says he struck down "Lahmi the brother of Goliath").[5] And Jonathan (David's nephew) killed the unnamed 24-digit giant. 

These four men are described as Rapha (רָפָה), which the ESV translates as "giants" (2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20, 22; 1 Chronicles 20:6, 8). The description of Rapha is related to the word for Rephaim (רְפָאִ֛ים). This connection is made explicit in the use of the plural Rephaim (רְפָאִ֛ים) in 1 Chronicles 20:4 for Sippai and the use of the singular Rapha (רָפָה) for Saph in 2 Samuel 21:18. (Saph and Sippai are likely variant spellings of the same name.) While 2 Samuel 21:15-22 uses the singular Rapha four times, 1 Chronicles 20:4-8 uses Rapha once and the plural Rephaim twice (1 Chronicles 20:6, 8).

As noted above, Rapha is probably a proper name of a giant from whom Goliath was descended. To make the connections clear, the Anakim were "considered" Rephaim (Deuteronomy 2:11, 21). This makes sense, as Goliath and his relatives are associated with both the Anakim and the Rephaim. They were killed by David and his own "mighty men" (גִּבֹּרִ֖ים, gibborim, contra the "mighty men" of Genesis 6:4) (2 Samuel 23:8).

Conclusion—Giants Today

The story of giants starts with the mysterious Nephilim in Genesis 6:4, who were wiped out by the flood. However, the Nephilim are linked with the later Anakim and Rephaim. Ten of the 12 Israelite spies feared going into the land of Canaan because they saw giant Anakim there, and Numbers 13:33 says they came from the Nephilim. Deuteronomy 2:11 says the Anakim were part of the giant group known as the Rephaim. And while in the wilderness, Moses defeated the giant Og of Bashan, who was one of the remaining Rephaim. After wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, Joshua and Caleb—the two faithful spies—then drove out the giant Anakim from Canaan. They "devoted" the Anakim to destruction, though they left some Anakim in Philistine territory (Joshua 11:21-22). One of those cities was Gath, from where Goliath hailed.

Thus the giant Goliath represented not just the Philistines, but the dreaded Anakim—which even Joshua could not fully defeat. Goliath and his fellow Anakim were also considered Rephaim (2 Samuel 21:15-22; cf. Deuteronomy 2:11). And if the Anakim were descended from the Nephilim (as Numbers 13:33 claims) and the Nephilim were the children of fallen angels and women (Genesis 6:4), then this would make Goliath the biological offspring of the serpent (Genesis 3:15). Goliath's connection to the Nephilim is strengthened by his description as a gibbor, a "mighty" one (1 Samuel 17:51; cf. Genesis 6:4). Furthermore, Goliath wore serpent-like "scale armor" (1 Samuel 17:5). This was a battle between the seed of the woman, David, and the seed of the serpent, the giant gibborim-Nephilim-Anakim-Rephaim warrior named Goliath. By defeating Goliath and his relatives, David completed the conquest that Joshua began.

There is no mention of giants in Scripture after the time of David. As far as we know, the gibbor David (1 Samuel 16:18) and his group of gibborim (2 Samuel 23:8) brought an end to the giants, those gibborim of old (Genesis 6:4). There are no more Nephilim, Anakim, or Rephaim on the earth.

The typical sermon on Goliath today encourages Christians to "slay the giants" in their lives, usually referring to sin and the fears of life. Advocates of redemptive-historical preaching often criticize this example of how preachers cover the Goliath story. However, there may be something to considering our own giants to slay—not primarily our individual enemies, but rather those of the church.

This connection is seen when we understand that the Promised Land typifies the whole world in which we dwell. Now that King Jesus has come, the whole earth belongs to Him (Matthew 28:18; Romans 4:13). And just as there were giants in the land of Canaan that needed to be driven out, the earth today is filled with Christ's enemies. The spiritual giants, including unbelief and false teaching, must be driven from the earth so that all will come to saving faith in Christ. However, this is a spiritual war, not one of flesh and blood (Ephesians 6:12).

Jesus defeated the serpent on the cross, along with all spiritual forces opposed to God and His people (Colossians 2:15). And in the end, He will have victory. The nations will be converted, and the spiritual giants will be defeated. In the power of Christ, we now drive out His enemies through the faithful preaching and teaching of God's Word. It is a hard task we have been given, and just like the Israelites, we must trust the Lord to bring it about.   

[1] The Septuagint also translates גִּבֹּרִ֛ים (gibborim) as γίγαντες (gigantes, "giants) in Ezekiel 32:21, 27, a passage that may describe giants and their place in Sheol after death. Nimrod was a גִּבֹּ֖ר (gibbor), which the Septuagint also translates as γίγας ("giant") in Genesis 10:8-9.

[2] Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm, 107.

[3] See Daniel J. Hays, "Reconsidering the Height of Goliath," JETS 48.4 (2005), 702–715, who discusses the textual issues and argues for the shorter height.

[4] See Clyde E. Billington, "Goliath and the Exodus Giants: How Tall Were They?" JETS 50.3 (2007), 489–508., who criticizes Hays' article from two years prior and instead argues that Goliath was about eight feet tall. Hays then responded to Billington: Daniel J. Hays, "The Height of Goliath: A Response to Clyde Billington," JETS 50.3 (2007), 509–516.     

[5] 2 Samuel 21:19 says, "Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim, the Bethlehemite, struck down Goliath the Gittite." 1 Chronicles 20:5 says, "Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite." So which is it? There are three possibilities. The first possibility is that 2 Samuel left out "Lahmi the brother of" from the text. This would make sense because 1 Samuel 17 says that it was David who killed Goliath, not Elhanan. It is also the case that the text of 2 Samuel 21:19 appears to be corrupted, seen in that it describes Elhanan as "the son of Jaare-oregim." The word "oregim" (אֹרְגִ֜ים) is the same word used at the end of the verse for "weaver" and is not in 1 Chronicles 20:5, which only says "son of Jair." The second possibility, suggested by the NET notes, is that 1 Chronicles 20 corrupted the word for "Bethlehemite" (בֵּ֣ית הַלַּחְמִ֗י) and instead created the word "Lahmi" with the direct object marker (אֶת־לַחְמִי֙). The problem with this latter is that it requires too much change. The direct object marker is still in 2 Samuel 21:19, and 1 Chronicles 20:5 also adds the word "brother" (אֲחִי֙). The third option is that there were two giants named Goliath. David killed Goliath in 1 Samuel 17, and Elhanan killed the other Goliath in 2 Samuel 21/1 Chronicles 20. This latter Goliath was also known as Lahmi, making him both "Goliath" and "Lahmi the brother of Goliath." The fourth option, a variation of the latter, is that Goliath was a more general term for "giant."

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Oct 22, 2024 - 11:15:47So, I've been reading Stories from Ancient Canaan, and it contains a story called Rephaim, which is also one of the words in the Bible translated as "giants."

It gives some definition to the word beyond the idea of being large, and I figured I'd share.  A few lines from the story

Code Select Expand

Sun rules the Rephaim,
  Sun rules the divine ones:
Your company are the gods,
  See, the dead are your company.

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in the midst of the Rephaim of the underworld

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Set up a stela for his divine ancestor, a votive for his clan in the sanctuary
So aside from being giant, this tells us that the Rephaim...

(a) ...were worshiped as gods by the Amorites
(b) ...that the Amorites considered them to be their ancestors
(c) ...that they were real people long dead but now passed into legend

That all works pretty well with what we know from the Bible, where two of the last Rephaim living were kings of the Amorites.

It also brings up a question - are Rephaim (giants) the same thing as Nephilim (giants)?

I think, along with others which have been quoted on this thread, it is obvious that post flood civilizations built societies upon the ruins of discovered antediluvian remains. Building atop and or integrating with structural remains, and deifying these most obviously superior ancestors. Whose remains are literally part of the under world, buried by the global flood. All the global legends of giants themselves being built upon many accounts of their remains being discovered as well.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 07:22:48I think, along with others which have been quoted on this thread, it is obvious that post flood civilizations built societies upon the ruins of discovered antediluvian remains. Building atop and or integrating with structural remains, and deifying these most obviously superior ancestors. Whose remains are literally part of the under world, buried by the global flood. All the global legends of giants themselves being built upon many accounts of their remains being discovered as well.

Whose and where were remains discovered.

You know I am a firm believe in giants.... but other then the stories about our Smithsonian having covered over giants here and destroying evidence I am still waiting for actual, scientific verified "giant"skeletons , for it seems that so many of the pictures we have seen have been fake.

The closest biblical example... other then the stories that made it into the bible was Og's bed.

But a bed is not proof that he was a giant.... maybe he liked to sleep with a lot of people, or women?

All these examples from the stories above... yet no proof ... so maybe the dinosaurs ate them up? Unlikely as I have generally heard dinosaurs were vegetarians.



They keep turning up dinosaurs... just recently in Hong Kong....
but of people?

Quote from: Rella on Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 07:57:44Whose and where were remains discovered.

You know I am a firm believe in giants.... but other then the stories about our Smithsonian having covered over giants here and destroying evidence I am still waiting for actual, scientific verified "giant"skeletons , for it seems that so many of the pictures we have seen have been fake.

The closest biblical example... other then the stories that made it into the bible was Og's bed.

But a bed is not proof that he was a giant.... maybe he liked to sleep with a lot of people, or women?

All these examples from the stories above... yet no proof ... so maybe the dinosaurs ate them up? Unlikely as I have generally heard dinosaurs were vegetarians.



They keep turning up dinosaurs... just recently in Hong Kong....
but of people?

Just think what one authentic giant human skeleton, would do to the theory of evolution. They simply will not allow it. There most certainly are many fakes, introduced for the exact purpose of casting doubt upon the large number of historic accounts of people actually finding such remains. Many of which are no doubt authentic. The devil himself does not want this truth to come out, having so very much invested in the theory of evolution.

Nevertheless, if God so chooses, there will be no hiding the evidence stored within our planet of which He is exactly aware. Perhaps He will save these awesome evidences to combine with his final plea to humanity before He returns.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 08:13:16Just think what one authentic giant human skeleton, would do to the theory of evolution.

There would be no effect.  They would simply be classified as some other species.

edit: but there would be problems for physics... the skeletal/muscular structure required for something 10 feet tall doesn't work with something basically human-shaped

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 13:24:27There would be no effect.  They would simply be classified as some other species.

edit: but there would be problems for physics... the skeletal/muscular structure required for something 10 feet tall doesn't work with something basically human-shaped

Then what was all of that gobbley gook that was in what I poste in I think 3 articles.

Especially the biblically related one.

Surely someone could not, or would not have taken the time to gather facts that they tie together as proof of not just 1 giant race which most would think would be the Nephilim... but seemingly all ove and area.

Did no one who fought these people ever take a souvenir of one?

The only proof is Ogs bed... as as I suggested that could have been for many reasons and not due to his height.

I think it was you who suggested that the giants may have been as short a 7' or 7 1/2' which would be quite tall to a 5' 8" man.

My girlfriiend was not quite 4'10" and her husband 6'11"  He was a giant compared to her. I am 5' 2 3/4" and I felt very tall next to her.

If there were giants... why not souvenirs. If there were not why the talk in the bible?

And another thing. It seems like these giants were all fairly nasty.

Could it be that they simply disappeared or ceased to be... much as is seeming apparent regarding demons when they are cast out?

Even a finger bone would be helpful.

I just wonder if all those Ohio mounds have been dug up?

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 13:24:27There would be no effect.  They would simply be classified as some other species.

edit: but there would be problems for physics... the skeletal/muscular structure required for something 10 feet tall doesn't work with something basically human-shaped

Oh, no doubt they would try to classify and explain it away. I don't see why larger, thicker, stronger bones and muscle, wouldn't work. All even now acknowledge that a great many animals and plants were much larger in the past than at present. Of course the pre flood world was likely different from this one in many ways as well.

https://truthwatchers.com/israel-sons-of-god/

Interesting quoted article below about the sons of god, is from link above.

QuoteIsrael as "sons of God"

Discussing Second Temple Jewish thought and use of Father/son terminology can only cause the question, "where did the idea first come from?" The answer should be obvious—the Hebrew Bible. Other than the general expression of God being the father to the fatherless (Psalm 68:5), the nation of Israel particularly is referred to as Jehovah's son frequently, though this is often unnoticed by readers, and significantly downplayed by Heiser so he can twist his theological conundrum into a convincing thesis.

Heiser's selective hermeneutics causes him to ignore the fact that the majority of references to God's sons in the Old Testament is in context identifying Israel. His tendency is to only mention those few passages that provide proof texts for his divine council in order to argue that the "sons of God" must mean divine beings in Psalm 82, commonly citing Genesis 6:1-4; Job 1:5-6; 2:1; 38:7; Psalm 89:6-7; Daniel 3:25. He would add to this list of verses Deuteronomy 32:8 (LXX); and Psalms 29:1, but we will see these two passages are identifying Israel. For example, Psalm 29:1 which uses the phrase beney 'eliym is clearly parallel with "his people" (Psalm 29:11) in a chiastic structure. Note the italics, capitalization and bolds to bring out the emphasis of this Psalm below:

1 Give unto the Lord, O ye MIGHTY (beney 'eliym),
give unto the Lord glory and strength.
2 Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name;
worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.

3 The voice of the Lord is upon the waters:
the God of glory thundereth: the Lord is upon many waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful;
the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.
5 The voice of the Lord breaketh the cedars;
yea, the Lord breaketh the cedars of Lebanon.

6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf;
Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.

7 The voice of the Lord divideth the flames of fire.
8 The voice of the Lord shaketh the wilderness;
the Lord shaketh the wilderness of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord maketh the hinds to calve,
and discovereth the forests:
and in his temple doth every one speak of his glory.

10 The Lord sitteth upon the flood;
yea, the Lord sitteth King for ever.
11 The Lord will give strength unto HIS PEOPLE;
the Lord will bless his people with peace. (Emphasis mine)

The middle section, verses 3-9, repeat the phrase "The voice of the LORD" seven times with the exception of verse 6 which is the pivot point. The parallel our attention is on is seen in verses 1-2 in connection with verse 10-11, where the "mighty" are to "give unto the LORD." In verse one the "mighty" (beney 'eliym) "give unto the LORD... strength"1) which is corresponding to verse 11 where "the LORD will give strength unto his people." The literary structure of this Psalm indisputably identifying the beney 'eliym, translated as "ye mighty," as God's people—Israel.

Israel is first called Jehovah's firstborn son in Exodus 4:22-23, who were called out of Egypt (Hosea 11:1). The Hebrew usually has the word "sons" being often translated as "children" because Deuteronomy 32:19 refers to the Lord's sons and daughters to make the terminology gender inclusive.2) The totality of the nation is made up of God's sons and daughters (Deuteronomy 14:1; 32:5, 6, 19; 1 Chronicles 29:10; Isaiah 43:6; 45:11; Hosea 1:10; Malachi 2:10).

God calls them "my people, children" (Isaiah 63:8) which also appears as a parallel in Isaiah 64:8-9; Jeremiah 4:22; Hosea 1:10 and, as we saw above, the chiasm in Psalm 29.3) Expressions such as "my people, which are called by my name" (2 Chronicles 7:14), is likely indicating the familial relationships "sons/children of God" as "the people" being called by the name of their Father is seen in Isaiah 63:16, 18-19. This is similar to how descendants can be called by the name of the family's patriarch "Abraham's children" (John 8:30), "sons of the house of Rechabites" (Jeremiah 35:5; also see Numbers 26 which is full of examples). God's sons and daughters are called by His name (Isaiah 43:6-7; 44:5; 56:5). Pagan nations can be called the "people of Chemosh" (Numbers 21:29; Jeremiah 48:46), or "daughters of a strange gods" (Malachi 2:11). In the Christian context, Peter also portrays the sonship terminology synonymous with being God's people, "being born again... as new born babes... ye are a chosen generation... now a people of God" (1 Peter 1:23; 2:2, 9, 10).

God is said to bare his sons as a father through the wilderness (Deuteronomy 1:31). He will "take up" those who have been forsaken by their human parents (Psalm 27:10). Israel is called children that God has brought up (Isaiah 1:2) and they are rebellious children (Isaiah 1:4; 30:1, 9), or backsliding children (Jeremiah 3:14, 22; 31:22), "sottish children" (Jeremiah 4:22). Jehovah's children had gone forth from Him (Jeremiah 10:20). He will chastise His nation as a man does his son (Deuteronomy 8:5) because he loves His people (Proverb 3:12).4) In the end He will spare his children (Malachi 3:17) with pity (Psalm 103:13).

The vineyard parable in Isaiah 5:1-7 pronounces coming judgement but uses the affectionate term "well beloved" (Isaiah 5:1) for "the house of Israel" (Isaiah 5:7). God continued to call the rebellious ten northern tribes His firstborn (Jeremiah 31:9), which He called His "dear son" (Jeremiah 31:20). This reveals a universality of the ethnicity of the Jewish people, not just those in Judah who were involved with the proper worship at the Temple in Jerusalem. The "sonship" terminology can be limited to the righteous (Psalm 73:15), or elsewhere be reduced to the priests only (Malachi 1:6).

Individuals can recognize God as their Father, though this is always in context as Israelite kings in the Old Testament (Solomon—2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; 22:10; 28:6; Solomon is even said sit on the LORD's throne in 1 Chronicles 29:23; David—Psalm 89:26-27), but these sonship verses are often interpreted as prophecies calling the future Messiah God's son5) (cf. Psalm 2:7, 12; Zechariah 12:10), which would imply Christ's divinity (Proverb 30:4; Isaiah 7:14; 8:8; 9:6). However, more generally the nation is encouraged to call God their "Father" (Jeremiah 3:4, 19), and they do call Him "our Father" (Isaiah 63:16; 64:8).

Israel can be depicted as God's wife who has borne children to Him (Hosea 2:3) or elsewhere Jerusalem as the wife (Ezekiel 16:20-21). Completing the wife and children analogy, they are called backsliding children that God is married to (Jeremiah 3:13; Isaiah 62:5).  Israel was formed from the womb (Isaiah 44:2, 24; 46:3-4; 49:5; 66:8-9) making them God's offspring (Isaiah 65:23), with other expressions of the nation being made by God (Isaiah 45:10-11; Psalm 149:2). Jeremiah the prophet was formed by God in the belly (Jeremiah 1:5) as one of the four people Rabbinic tradition recognized God personally formed (the other three were Adam [Genesis 2;7], Jacob [Isaiah 43:1], and Isaiah [Isaiah 49:5]).6)

Isaiah's children were given to him by God (Isaiah 8:18). On a few occasions the analogy is depicting God in feminine terms such as "mother" (Isaiah 66:13), which even Christ portrayed when lamenting over Jerusalem applying feminine terminology of a hen seeking to gather her chicks under her wings (Matthew 23:37). The "mother" terminology is rare and should not be taken in any Gnostic or Kabalistic concept as setting God as an androgynous figure.7) In the New Testament the terminology is generally used for Christians, but the inspired text continues to use terms of endearment for Israelites who have rejected the gospel, as in Roman 11:28 which calls them God's "beloved."

The "father" language in Deuteronomy 32:5, 6, and verses 18, 19, 20 are in the context of the "son" language of Deuteronomy 32:8 (LXX), which is Heiser's paradigm passage. He assumes the "sonship" language infers divinity, and misconstrues the proper interpretation of the main verse in the passage his entire theological perspective is established upon. Whether Deuteronomy 32:8 is taken from the Masoretic text "children of Israel," or the Septuagint "sons of God," the meaning in its context is still pointing to the nation of Israel as God's son. This is why Heiser has to downplay the abundance of Father/son terminology identifying Israel throughout the Old Testament to convince his readers of his false interpretation.

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Richard%20J.%20Dewhurst%20-%20The%20Ancient%20Giants%20Who%20Ruled%20America.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ioWq6NbVos

Been a while since I posted anything from WISE UP.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 14:10:16I don't see why larger, thicker, stronger bones and muscle, wouldn't work.

Oh, they do.  Just look at a rhino or an elephant.  It's just that... if you have differences that large in skeletal and muscular structure, then what you're looking at is no longer homo sapiens.  We aren't built that way.

Basically, you can have "giants" of the ancient world who are 6'6" and human, but if you want them to be 9-10' tall, by necessity you are talking about another species.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 14:10:16All even now acknowledge that a great many animals and plants were much larger in the past than at present.

We still have mega-fauna and mega-flora today... they aren't gone, just less prevalent.

It's a function of Determinate vs Indeterminate Growth in genetics, paired with average lifespan.

Sure these are fake but interesting idea anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE9ekzlHjww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eR_Jn9Dfx4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp-W7c8xWuU

some day we are all going to die and might find out all these giants were actually bigfoot 

Quote from: Rella on Sat Dec 28, 2024 - 19:29:17Sure these are fake but interesting idea anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE9ekzlHjww

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eR_Jn9Dfx4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp-W7c8xWuU

some day we are all going to die and might find out all these giants were actually bigfoot 

Nah. God's word is truth. There were giants.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Dec 28, 2024 - 16:26:56Oh, they do.  Just look at a rhino or an elephant.  It's just that... if you have differences that large in skeletal and muscular structure, then what you're looking at is no longer homo sapiens.  We aren't built that way.

Basically, you can have "giants" of the ancient world who are 6'6" and human, but if you want them to be 9-10' tall, by necessity you are talking about another species.
We still have mega-fauna and mega-flora today... they aren't gone, just less prevalent.

It's a function of Determinate vs Indeterminate Growth in genetics, paired with average lifespan.

All of course under the most prevalent assumption of most "scientists" today, that the past is bound by what we observe today. As though we can judge the unobservable past with complete accuracy according to what we observe today. Scripture though, presents a very different picture. Of a world that has experienced major changes since its creation, changed by the Creator Himself, and which continues to deteriorate toward its end. The scriptures themselves predicting this erroneous presumption.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

QuoteBasically, you can have "giants" of the ancient world who are 6'6" and human, but if you want them to be 9-10' tall, by necessity you are talking about another species.

This is not what we observe even today, concerning the fossilized remains of ancient animal species. We find them to have been much larger, but basically still identifiable as the same species.

https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/early-earth/larger-organisms/

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteLarger Organisms in the Past

Often larger organisms are healthier and longer-lived than smaller specimens of the same kind. Certainly environmental factors (particularly nutrition) and genetic variations play an important role in determining a creature's size and its lifespan. However, there are many creationists who believe that the larger ancestors of modern organisms (as seen in the fossil record) provide important evidence of decline in biological systems. Many years ago Henry Morris wrote, "[M]ost modern creatures are represented in the fossil record by larger and more highly developed individuals than their modern counterparts" (Morris, H, "The Power of Energy," CRSQ, 1964, pp. 18-23.) The early earth would have provided the optimal environment for healthy organisms (with specialized original biomes created directly by God). Perhaps part of the explanation for gigantism was the atmospheric conditions of the pre-Flood world. But we know that some giant species persisted even in the centuries after the Flood (ice age megafauna, for example). Undoubtedly, biological kinds continued to decline as they do today. With some possible exceptions (like the blue whale and African Elephant) the fossilized remains of the various animal kinds are significantly larger than their modern-day counterparts demonstrating a general trend of devolution over time.

While modern medicine and improved nutrition have actually reversed the downward trend in human lifespans, human genetic mutations continue to accumulate and new diseases pose fresh challenges. Those ancient plants and animals would not have suffered from the genetic deterioration that has accumulated since that time. In Romans 8:21-22 the Bible discusses the bondage to corrupting forces that was introduced with the fall of man and the curse of Genesis 3. But the scripture also tells of a time when men lived to be many hundreds of years old, giants were common on the earth, and the human genome was able to withstand extensive in-breeding (multiple genetic bottlenecks). Various animals can grow to indeterminate size, so they will become giants if they live long enough. How long would a dinosaur live in the pre-Flood world? Even today some reptiles live longer than humans. For example the tortoise Harriette that Charles Darwin brought back from the Galapagos Islands lived till 2006, dying at the ripe age of 175. If the dinosaurs lived significantly longer than humans on the early earth, some of the created organisms may have lasted right up till the Flood! Their longevity and reproductive capacity (as compared to mammals) could explain why the primeval world quickly became an "Age of Reptiles."

But the dinosaurs were certainly not the only predatory reptiles that grew to fantastic size on the early earth. Crocodilians like Deinosuchus and Sarcosuchus grew to as long as 40-50 feet. Notice on right the Sarcosuchus skull compared to a modern crocodile skull. Fossils found in what is now the Giant Penguin & Skierdesert of Niger tell of a hyper-crocodile that would have feasted on dinosaurs in what was then a verdant river valley. The fossil crocs not only were much larger, but they would have weighed ten times as much as today's largest crocodilians. Oftentimes we can identify fossilized plants and animals as closely allied to still living species. For example, fossil ferns have been discovered that are in the same family as modern ones, but the fossil ferns are the size of trees! On the early earth, horsetails once shot up over thirty feet tall. In 2018, a fossilized penguin was discovered in New Zealand. Taller than the modern Emperor Penguin, the penguins, named Crossvallia waiparensis, stood over 5 feet and weighed about 180 pounds. By comparison, the largest modern penguin species stands between 3 and 4 feet tall.

There were huge cockroaches, ants, crickets, grasshoppers and even monstrous spiders that thrived in a land of endless summer. Dragonflies with nearly three foot wingspan skimmed over swamps in which eight-foot beavers, monster frogs, and sixty-foot cattails flourished. Beetles once grew to be the size of a baseball mitt and climbed up conifers that towered a hundred feet high. Australia's iconic koala weighs as much as 31 pounds. Compare Cartoon man & Giant wormthis to the ancient forest canopies where a 150 pound marsupial, called Nimbadon, ruled. The fossil lungfish is twice the size of modern lungfish. Megapiranha, a fossil piranha discovered in Argentina was about 3 feet long–a beast four times as big as piranhas living today. Modern mayflies may sport a 10 inch wingspan at the most, but a primeval mayfly Bojophlebia prokopi had an 18 inch wingspan. A giant sand worm was discovered in Devon, England. These giant worms would have grown up to 3 feet long and 6 inches wide. Their large burrowing holes indicate that the creatures would have traveled beneath the surface, not unlike the modern earthworms used for fishing.

In his delightful book on fossil giants, Monumental Monsters, Vance Nelson demonstrates how creatures from all over the world have decline in size and diversity vs their ancient relatives. For example, the fossil raccoon Chapalmalania altaefrontis, (right) would have dwarfed living raccoons. With its short tail and 5-foot body, it would have looked a bit like a giant panda bear. Pelorovis is an extinct genus of African cattle that resembled the Cape Buffalo, but sported a 10 ft horn spread! To the upper left is pictured the skull of the giant hyena-like animal Dinocrocuta. This fossil monster would have weighed in at about 850 pounds, nearly 4 times the size of the largest modern hyenas. An unlikely fossil was discovered in 2009 in a Colombian coal mine...the largest snake on record. The monster, called Titanoboa, was about 45 feet long and would have weighed over a ton! By comparison, the Guinness record for a snake found alive is just over 25 feet. The Australian fossil Varanus prisca (aka Megalania prisca) demonstrates dramatic decrease in size of these monitor lizards (left). While the extant Komodo Dragon might reach 10 ft in length, its ancestral relative would have been about 26 ft long. Wombat and seacow fossils similarly testify to giants in the past.

Gigantism seems to be a major feature of the fossil record. Fossil hunters in Uruguay uncovered the remains of a one ton rat creature (quite like the living South American Pacarana). The rodent would have been roughly the size of a small automobile and its head alone would have been larger than a cow! Another oversized rodent, the giant guinea pig, grew as big as a modern rhinoceros; while the ancient rhino grew to be the biggest mammal to ever walk on land. The large male white rhino might grow up to 4 tons, but a Paraceratherium, an extinct hornless rhino,  found in China, grew up to 24 tons! Tracks of an eight-foot-long monster millipede were discovered in New Mexico in 2005. Spencer Lucas, paleontology Paracatherium vs Modern Rhinocurator at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History, commented, "They just couldn't survive at that size in modern air... For an insect to get that big, you'd need to have a lot more oxygen in the air." (Quoted in Vorenberg, Sue, "This Bug's a Big One,"  Tribune Reporter, April 14, 2005.) Then in 2021 a colossal 9 ft millipede fossil was discovered in a cliff in northern England! The car-sized arthropod would have weighed about 110 pounds. Fossils of a 10 pound toad, a bear-sized dog, and an 8 ft platypus all tell the story of larger organisms in the past. In 2006 bones of an enormous camel, double the size of the modern-day camel, were found in El Kowm, Syria.

The ancient Steppe Mammoth weighed as much as 31,000 pounds in comparison to the largest elephant on record, a 24,000 pound bull that was killed in Angola. Modern coyotes are smaller than their Ice Age ancestors. Dunkleosteus & scuba manThe remains of a giant iguana were found in sediments on the Fijian island of Viti Levu. It is more than twice the size of the living iguana. The remains of giant baboons were discovered on the plains of Kenya. Weighing about 140 pounds, they would be twice the size of modern baboons. In ancient times the ferocious-looking, giant armored fish, Dinicthys terrelli, grew to approximately 30 feet long, with its head and neck covered in solid armor-like bone and sporting four scissor-like teeth at the front of its jaw. The fossilized remains of an ancient sea scorpion found in NY measures 6 ft in length. It seems like monstrous creatures existed in every ecosystem on the early earth!

According to Guinness, the biggest hedgehog around today are the European hedgehog; and the largest on record is a porker that weighed just under 10 pounds. But the fossilized hedgehog Deinogalerix, which was discovered in Italy, was a huge hog that would have been 5 times the size of the European hedgehog. To the right is a comparison between a bald eagle and the giant Teratorn bird (Argentavis magnificens) with a wingspan of 25 ft (Giant Moacomparison after Campbell, Kenneth E., "The World's Largest Flying Bird," Terra, Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, 19:2, 1980.) The living bird with the largest wingspan is the wandering albatross, which has about 12 ft between wing tips. But the Pelagornis sandersi, an ancient albatross whose remains were found in South Carolina, had a 24 ft wingspan. The extinct giant Moa from New Zealand stood an incredible 12ft tall (left) and weighed 400 pounds. The South American Seriemas are long-legged birds that forage on foot and prefer to run from danger rather than fly. They grow to about 35 inches in height. But the closely-related bird Brontis (whose fossils are found in South America) was a 900 pound "terror bird" who would have stood over 9 feet tall!  Below are two of the fossils displayed at Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum: the skull of a giant salamander and horns of an ancient bison, measuring 8 foot tip-to-tip. Also below is a huge turtle skeleton exhibited at Yale's Peabody Museum. It is 11 feet long, 15 feet wide and would have weighed about 3 tons. Scientists in Spain found fossils of a mega-shrew that was capable of shooting venom out of blood-colored teeth. The researchers describe this extinct shrew, Dolinasorex glyphodon, as "giant" because it had a body mass of about 2 ounces, four times heavier than a modern water shrew. Massive deer, lemurs, kangaroo, and donkeys have all been found in the fossil record. Even an inch-long, Jurassic fossilized flea has been discovered that in China.

The Entelodont (left) is an extinct creature that has been called the "Terminator Pig" because of its size and ferocious appearance. Looking something like a massively overgrown warthog, the Terminator Pig would have weighed up to 2,000 pounds. But unlike today's farm pigs that grow fat and lazy, the Entelodont  would have been an omnivorous apex predator in the North American plains. There is some disagreement about exactly how to classify this beast.

The picture to the right is of artist William Munns and his re-creation of the giant ape Gigantopithecus. Based on teeth and jaw fragments found in China, the great ape is thought to be 10-12 feet tall. Some people believe something like this creature still Modern Armadillo vs Glyptodontexist in the form of Big Foot. The giant South American armadillo grows to about 70 pounds. Compare this to the Glyptodont, the ancient South American armadillo that was as big as an automobile and weighed up to two tons! Then there is the example of the saber-toothed mesonyx. It was a wolf, somewhat larger than a Great Dane, and at least twice as large as a modern timber wolf. In 2017 an ancient wolf-sized otter species was unearthed in China. Siamogale melilutra is more than twice the size of the modern giant South American river otter.

Discovered in 2011 on the Spanish island of Minorca were king-sized rabbit remains. Meike Kohler Giant Bunny pictureThe giant bunny weighed in at 26 pounds, about six times bigger than the common European rabbit (see the comparison to the left). The smilodon, a large saber-toothed tiger, was bigger and more ferocious than than any modern tiger. Remains of a giant short-faced bear skull was found in South Dakota. It was one third bigger than today's largest grizzly bears, standing at about 11ft. Today it is rare to find a sloth that weighs 20 pounds, but the remains of the giant ground sloth Megatherium have been found in South American caves. It grew up to 4 tons and stood at 18 feet tall. So it didn't need to climb trees to get plenty of leaves to eat. It seems that such gigantism was common among mammals even up through the Equus giganteus2Ice Age. The conventional picture of horse evolution from a small deer-like ancestor to today's large horses needs to be reevaluated. The largest horse in recorded history, a Shire gelding named Mammoth, was born in 1848 and eventually weighed 3,300 lbs. But the fossil horse Equus Giganteus, a huge zebra-like animal, would have weighed well over 3,500 pounds, much more than any modern zebra!

Fossil marine predators that resemble shrimp have been found in Morocco. But these ancient anomalocaridids were over 3 ft long. Perhaps the most terrifying of all the ancient monsters, the fossil shark megalodon grew to be thirty times as big as the largest reported modern great white shark. The fossil record is replete with examples of immense creatures that flourished in the past. That is not to say there aren't also smaller varieties of these animals among the rock layers. Some preserved remains of beavers, rodents, elephants, and birds of prey would be close in size to their modern populations. There are even quite a number of smaller dinosaurs. Animal kinds throughout history seem to have enjoyed the capacity for a wide variation in sizes (like modern dogs). The point is that, when we can identify comparable kinds, there were considerably larger varieties, as a rule, in the distant past than we have alive anywhere today. And as far as we can tell, these are not outliers, freak cases of giantism. The norm of the population was simply larger in the past.  With our current understanding of information theory, this large-scale trend of genetic entropy over the ages should not come as a surprise to us.

In 2015 the discovery of a fossilized wasp was announced. The wasp found near Cache Creek, British Columbia, Canada.  The journal article reported that it resembles modern horntail wasps and is in remarkable condition. But in terms of size, it is gigantic, measuring almost 3 inches long! Further evidence of biological decline comes from a California company, Ambergene, which has patented a process of sterilizing amber samples, grinding them up, and then growing the ancient microbes found in it. The company's research leads them to believe that these ancient microbes will yield more potent and powerful agricultural applications than modern-day descendants. They even isolated a yeast entombed in an ancient bee, grew it and found it very "active" as they brewed amber beer! The evidence suggests that biological deterioration and environmental degradation contributed to devolution (a decline in fitness, body mass, overall health, and longevity) through the ages.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Dec 29, 2024 - 09:52:02This is not what we observe even today, concerning the fossilized remains of ancient animal species. We find them to have been much larger, but basically still identifiable as the same species.

Only for species with indeterminate growth.  Every creature that has ever existed has genetics.  That hasn't changed. 

For some plants and animals, those genetics define a maximum size.  That's called determinate growth.  They will only ever grow to the maximum size their genes allow. 

For others, those genetics DON'T define a maximum size.  They will continue growing for as long as they live.  The Nile Crocodile, for example, grows indeterminately.  When they live long, they can get to 20' long and upwards of a ton.

Mankind grows determinately.  Living longer will not result in us growing larger.  Our size is dictated strictly by our genes.