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Quote from: Amo on Fri Oct 18, 2024 - 07:53:31It is not a matter of God minding or not. It is the matter of God's word being truth or not. It is a matter of authority. We will either believe God's word is the standard of truth, or we will make others or ourself the standard of truth. The exact issue addressed in the Garden, when Adam and Eve chose to believe another standard of truth, than the word of God which had been spoken to them.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Does verse 23 above seem like a request to you? It doesn't say God will ask people if they will please come to worship before Him at the appointed times, it says they will. Are the holy scriptures the standard of truth, or is every sinner themself the standard of truth. I am a sinner in need of salvation, and clearly understand that I most certainly am not the standard of truth. Nevertheless, God has given all the freedom to choose whatever standard of truth they themsleves desire. though there will come a day.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Then I am wrong.... but not totally.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

There will be constant worship between the Sabbath days.

Your verse say from one to the other.... THAT IS CONTINUAL.I have no problem with that,,, just the timing in heaven is not the timing on earth so who knows how long a week is in heaven.....

If a day is like a thousand years could it be 7000 year spans.

OR. as the scripture says....

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

New Heavens and new earth must be somewhere off from here? NOT ACCORDING TO THE LINK i HAVE BELOW....


So many ways to look at this....

Do I understand you to believe we will be living on the new earth?

You know that is basically what the Mormons preach.... and they worship on Sundays.

I dont know , I only care about God and Jesus.  The rest will come in the details

This is interesting.... do YOU agree with them?

https://www.crossway.org/articles/10-things-you-should-know-about-the-new-heaven-and-the-new-earth/

Quote10 Things You Should Know about the New Heavens and the New Earth
August 20, 2019by: Ian K. Smith

This article is part of the 10 Things You Should Know series.

1. Jesus was raised to earth.
Jesus was raised to earth, not to heaven. We should not confuse the resurrection and the ascension. The grave of Joseph of Arimathea was empty. After his resurrection, Jesus's body was clearly transformed, but it was still the very same physical body that was laid in the tomb. This resurrection is the firstfruits of the general resurrection (1 Cor. 15:20, 23). Our bodies will also be raised in a way that will allow us to live in the new heavens and the new earth. We do not know all the details of what this will look like, but we know that "we shall be like him" (1 John 3:2). Christianity is a resurrection religion.

2. The Bible begins at Genesis 1, not at Genesis 3.
The Bible does not begin with the problem of sin; it begins with the beauty of the earth. Through all the twists and turns of the biblical story, God remains committed to his creation. In the light of this, it is surprising that so many Christians view the earth as transient at best and something to be forsaken at worst. The opening chapters of Genesis explode this misconception. God, not Satan, will have the final victory over what God has made. It will not be discarded but rescued. The scope of this rescue operation encompasses all that has fallen. It is not surprising, therefore, that Scripture talks of the fulfilment of this rescue as "new heavens and a new earth" (Isa. 65:17; 66:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1). The story of the Bible begins with "God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1) and ends with "a new heaven and the new earth" (Rev. 21:1).

Not Home Yet
Not Home Yet
Ian K. Smith
Understanding God's plan to renew the earth connects what Christians learn on Sunday mornings with the rest of the week—shaping their mission as they discover purpose in all their daily work here on earth.

3. God did not hold back his best when he created the earth.
The earth that God created is not a functional, monochrome, utilitarian machine. It is full of beauty, color, and creativity. God declared it to be "very good" (Gen. 1:31). God did not hold back when he created this world by keeping the best for heaven.

Of course, the world is not all that we would want it to be. Suffering pervades every part of our lives. But this problem is not because the earth is second rate. It is caused by the entrance of sin. Through the Bible God shows his commitment to fix this problem by descending to earth to address the issue of sin. This begins in Eden where he walks with Adam in the garden (Gen 3:8), and it continues as God's glory is beheld in the tabernacle, in the temple, in the incarnation, in the crucifixion, in the resurrection, and in the gift of the Holy Spirit. When Jesus returns, it will not be just for a visit, to pick us up and take us elsewhere. He is coming to stay. The New Jerusalem will descend to earth (Revelation 21), and the beauty of God's creation will be restored and renewed.

4. Humans are made in the image of God to have dominion.
Genesis 1 begins with the creation of the heavens and the earth, but then narrows in to a particular garden called "Eden." This garden is where God dwells with his people on earth. In the Ancient Near East, the home of a god was a temple, and Eden is presented in these terms. But it is a temple with a difference. It is not a static, lifeless building but a growing garden. God is not a lifeless statue within this temple, but he walks and talks within the garden (Gen. 3:8). The images in the temple are not made of wood or stone, but are human flesh and blood named Adam and Eve (Gen. 1:26, 27).

All later tabernacles and temples within the history of the people of Israel are a reflection of Eden. The Garden of Eden is the exemplar of what it looks like when heaven and earth meet. God's image bearers are given a purpose within the temple. They are bestowed with vice-regal authority to manage the development in God's world, to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth" (Gen. 1:28). This is why humans were created. It goes to the core of our reason for existence.

5. God has entered into an eternal covenant with creation.
It sounds strange in English to enter into a covenant with creation. How do animals, trees, and rocks respond? But God declares: "And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens and the creeping things of the ground" (Hos. 2:18). We think of a covenant in contractual terms, between two informed, consenting parties. But the Hebrew word berith (covenant) can often mean a one-sided pledge. When God cuts a covenant with Abram, Abram was asleep (Gen. 15:12).

The successive covenants in Scripture, talk of an everlasting covenant (berith 'olam) made with creation. This reference is seen in the covenants with Noah (Gen. 9:16), Abraham (Gen. 17:7), Moses (Ex. 31:16; Lev. 24:8), David (2 Sam. 23:5), and with Israel after the Babylonian exile (Isa. 24:5, 6; 55:3; 61:8; Jer. 32:40; 50:5; Ezek. 16:60; 37:26). In short, God is committed to his creation. The successive covenants he makes find their basis in his prior pledge to all he has made.

Creation and new creation are the bookends of the Bible. God is concerned for the renewal of this earth.

 
6. The destruction of the earth does not mean its obliteration.
The Bible talks of the total destruction of the earth twice: once in the flood in the days of Noah and the other in the final destruction of the earth by fire. Both of these events are mentioned in 2 Peter 3, a chapter of the Bible that is sometimes cited as proof that all will be destroyed. But this raises the question, What do we mean by destroyed? The flood in Noah's time certainly destroyed the world, but it did not obliterate it.

2 Peter 3:10 states: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." The image is that of a purifying fire which removes the dross of imperfections. The dross of sin will be removed and the purity of the gold will be exposed. What we do on earth matters.

7. The Holy Land expands to be a Holy Earth.
God's intentions for one land, Israel, have ramifications for the future of the whole earth. Within an understanding of God's ownership of the entire earth, God elected one nation, Israel, to be his chosen people. They were to live in a Promised Land (Ex. 3:8, 17; 13:5; 33:3) that is compared with the Garden of Eden (Isa. 51:3; cf. Ezek. 36:35). When the Old Testament closes, the people of Israel had returned from the Babylonian captivity and were reestablishing themselves in the land, but they were still awaiting a messiah who would accomplish God's purposes.

As the New Testament opens we are introduced to this Messiah. Jesus fulfills all the promises of God. God's purpose in the choosing of one nation was that all the nations of the earth would be blessed; God's purpose in choosing one land was that all the earth would be blessed. In the wake of Jesus's fulfilment of all that Israel stood for, the New Testament begins the transition from a holy land to a holy earth, from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8). The ultimate realization of this will be seen in "new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells" (2 Pet. 3:13).

8. Away from the body and at home with the Lord.
The Apostles' Creed asserts belief in both "the life everlasting" and "the resurrection of the body," but immortality and resurrection are not the same thing. Immortality means that our life will not be interrupted by death, but resurrection means the raising of our physical bodies. What will be the state of those who die before the general resurrection at the return of Jesus?

The ultimate hope for the Christian is "a new heaven and a new earth" (Rev. 21:1) within which our resurrected bodies will live. But should we die prior to this, death will not be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus (Rom. 8:38–39). As we await the general resurrection, we will be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). Questions abound at this point, but what we know should give comfort in the face of what we don't know. We will be with Jesus, and that will be sufficient.

9. Jesus's proclamation about the kingdom of God is concerned with this world.
When Jesus claimed "my kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36), he was not referring to the domain over which he rules. Hopefully the kingdom of God makes an impact in this world! The Gospels clearly identify two kingdoms, but the division is not between sacred and secular; the division is between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan (Luke 11:14–22). The ministry of Jesus disarms and defeats the kingdom of this world over which Satan rules. The day will come when heaven will declare that "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ" (Rev. 11:15).

In the meantime, the division is not between a sacred kingdom and a secular kingdom. The effects of sin can be just as sorely felt in the church as in the workplace. Similarly, the effects of the kingdom of God can be lived out on Mondays as well as on Sundays. Jesus is Lord over all. He is committed to his creation.

10. The renewal of the earth means we are committed to the things of the earth.
Creation and new creation are the bookends of the Bible. God is concerned for the renewal of this earth. Christian ministry is not just about telling people how to get into heaven when they die, essential though that is. It is also concerned for what happens in this world. Telling people the way of salvation is of foundational importance. Without repentance of sins and submission to the Lordship of Jesus, nothing else makes sense. But that is not the end of the story. If we acknowledge that the Christian's hope is the renewal of all things, it gives meaning to life. Christian communities are commended for the way they bless the places where they live (Phil. 2:15; Col. 4:5–6; 1 Thess. 4:11–12; Tit. 2:9–10). If our lives are transformed by the power of the gospel, our workplaces, families, marriages, friendships, and world will be impacted. God is concerned for this physical world. A good question for every church to ask is, If our church were to close down, would anyone in our neighborhood notice the difference?

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Oct 17, 2024 - 12:30:32Time is a result of the creation of this physical universe.  Even in this realm, for something that moves with the speed of light, there is no time. Clearly there is no time nor even a need for time in the spiritual realm which is an eternal realm.   

Then why bother with clocks for astronauts in space...it's important in more ways than you think.

Quote from: Rella on Fri Oct 18, 2024 - 09:38:18Then I am wrong.... but not totally.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

There will be constant worship between the Sabbath days.

Your verse say from one to the other.... THAT IS CONTINUAL.I have no problem with that,,, just the timing in heaven is not the timing on earth so who knows how long a week is in heaven.....

If a day is like a thousand years could it be 7000 year spans.

OR. as the scripture says....

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

New Heavens and new earth must be somewhere off from here? NOT ACCORDING TO THE LINK i HAVE BELOW....


So many ways to look at this....

Do I understand you to believe we will be living on the new earth?

You know that is basically what the Mormons preach.... and they worship on Sundays.

I dont know , I only care about God and Jesus.  The rest will come in the details

This is interesting.... do YOU agree with them?

https://www.crossway.org/articles/10-things-you-should-know-about-the-new-heaven-and-the-new-earth/

I do not believe the saved will do nothing but maintain a constant literal and present worship of God bowing before Him evermore. They will of course maintain a constant attitude of worship in all that they say and do, but they will be saying and doing a great many things we cannot even begin to imagine at present. Nevertheless, there will still be a specific time set aside, to rightly devote all of our attention and reverence toward Him. On His sabbath, which His prophet Isaiah has foretold.

The new earth will be this earth cleansed by fire, recreated, and renewed. God Himself will reside here on earth with us. an inestimable honor which we most certainly do not deserve. Praise his holy, righteous, and pure name. Read Revelation chapters 20 - 22 for the details.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Oct 19, 2024 - 17:14:48I do not believe the saved will do nothing but maintain a constant literal and present worship of God bowing before Him evermore. They will of course maintain a constant attitude of worship in all that they say and do, but they will be saying and doing a great many things we cannot even begin to imagine at present. Nevertheless, there will still be a specific time set aside, to rightly devote all of our attention and reverence toward Him. On His sabbath, which His prophet Isaiah has foretold.

The new earth will be this earth cleansed by fire, recreated, and renewed. God Himself will reside here on earth with us. an inestimable honor which we most certainly do not deserve. Praise his holy, righteous, and pure name. Read Revelation chapters 20 - 22 for the details.

Yes, I know Rev well.

As to the other... I comprhend Isiah differently.

I read this and to me it does say

"23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another says continuing time.

Quote from: Rella on Sat Oct 19, 2024 - 17:42:02"23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another says continuing time.

What if... instead of transliterating the Hebrew word Sabbath, you were to translate it?  What word would you give in translation?  Would that change the meaning of the verse here?  How about through the rest of the Bible?

Isa 66: 22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the Lord, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the Lord.(NIV)

Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me," saith the Lord, "so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me," saith the Lord.(KJ21)

22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will remain and endure before Me," declares the Lord, "So your offspring and your name will remain and endure. 23 "And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon And from Sabbath to Sabbath,All mankind will come to bow down and worship before Me," says the Lord.(AMP)

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth which I make shall remain before Me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain. 23 And it shall be that from one New Moon to another New Moon and from one Sabbath to another Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says the Lord.(AMPC)

22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making will continue in my presence," says Adonai, "so will your descendants and your name continue. 23 "Every month on Rosh-Hodesh and every week on Shabbat, everyone living will come to worship in my presence," says Adonai.(CJB)

22 "I will make new heavens and the new earth, which will ·last forever [endure before me]," says the Lord. "In the same way, your name and your ·children [descendants; offspring; seed] will ·always be with me [remain; endure]. 23 All ·people [flesh] will come to worship me every Sabbath and every New Moon," says the Lord.(EXB)

Just a few more versions for comparison. We may all choose to comprehend whatever we wish, however we wish, of course.

 

How would it be interpretted if you substitute first day of the week for every occurrence of Sabbath?

Quote from: Jaime on Sun Oct 20, 2024 - 06:49:19How would it be interpretted if you substitute first day of the week for every occurrence of Sabbath?

Considering the extremely weak scriptural evidence many try to pass off as proof that the apostles and early Christians kept Sundays sacred, I'm sure such would be used many as a sign of Sunday sacredness significance. Though it is generally ignored as such concerning seventh day sabbath significance. So be it. 

https://www.icr.org/article/dinosaurs-marine-sediments-worldwide

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteDinosaurs in Marine Sediments: A Worldwide Phenomenon

For many years, paleontologists have known of marine fossils within various dinosaur-bearing rock units in the American West. These occurrences are largely ignored by mainstream scientists who deny that dinosaurs were buried in the global and recent Flood, as described in Genesis.

The Hell Creek Formation in eastern Montana has yielded many T. rex specimens, including well-documented dinosaur soft-tissue fossils. Surprisingly, in two volumes of papers published specifically on the Hell Creek discoveries, little is mentioned of the five species of shark and 14 species of fish fossils that are indicative of marine influence. Secular scientists either ignore these findings or dismiss them as all freshwater sharks and freshwater fish, in spite of the more likely conclusion that they represent marine organisms.

Other authors have studied the fauna of the Hell Creek Formation since the 1950s and found ample evidence of a mixture of marine and non-marine fossils. As Joseph Hartman and James Kirkland stated, "Although previously reported, knowledge of the continuation of marine conditions above the Fox Hills Formation [in the Hell Creek Formation] is not well or widely known."

It is now becoming obvious that the mixing of terrestrial and marine environments is not a rare occurrence in the rock record. Recent discoveries in Morocco and Europe have shown that most dinosaurs are found with marine fossils or buried in marine sediments.

Nizar Ibrahim et al. reported that sharks, sawfish, ray-finned fishes, and coelocanths were found in the same rock layers as a Spinosaurus dinosaur in Morocco. How can this be? Today's coelocanths live about 500 feet below the ocean surface and not in freshwater rivers as many paleontologists have proposed. They dismiss the blatant physiological evidence from living specimens and insist that ancient coelocanths must have lived in fresh water simply because they are found in strata with dinosaurs. Where is the logic in this conclusion?

Zoltan Csiki-Sava and his colleagues surveyed all the recent research on dinosaur occurrences in Europe within the six accepted stages of the Late Cretaceous system. The team reported that "although isolated occurrences of continental [terrestrial] vertebrate fossils were occasionally reported from the Cenomanian to lower Santonian [lower four Upper Cretaceous stages] of Europe, these were mainly from marginal marine deposits." And the vast majority of these dinosaur occurrences were even found in open marine chalk and limestone deposits mixed with marine invertebrates.

Their survey of the upper two stages of the Cretaceous also showed nearly all dinosaur fossils were located in marine rocks. Here, too, the paleontologists reported numerous discoveries of dinosaur remains in open marine chalk beds that are difficult to explain in a uniformitarian context. "Although these are isolated skeletal elements [individual bones] that washed out to sea, they are remarkably common and have been reported in surprisingly large numbers since the early discoveries."

Dinosaur fossils found in rock strata with marine fossils are commonplace, not the exception. The mounting empirical evidence cannot be ignored or simply explained away as a rare occurrence. The fossil evidence supports a catastrophic and global flood that mixed the marine realm with the terrestrial realm as tsunami-like waves spread ocean fauna and sediments across the continents. Genesis 7 and 8 describe this process better than any secular scientist could imagine.

Ever increasing evidence of dinosaur soft tissues, and dino's fossils buried with Marine fossils. Nothing to see here, move along.

Quote from: Amo on Tue Oct 22, 2024 - 08:01:29Ever increasing evidence of dinosaur soft tissues, and dino's fossils buried with Marine fossils. Nothing to see here, move along.

Interesting that Scheitzer, who is the leader of research in this field and a Christian herself, vehemently counters any claims made by YECs that the specimens must be no more than several thousand years old, she maintains that the samples used in her research were from 68 million year old bones. 

Quote from: Rella on Sat Oct 19, 2024 - 17:42:02Yes, I know Rev well.

As to the other... I comprhend Isiah differently.

I read this and to me it does say

"23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

From one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another says continuing time.

Its like astronauts in outer space or scientist in the north pole, they keep the correct day and time with no issues.

Quote from: Hobie on Fri Oct 25, 2024 - 17:45:05Its like astronauts in outer space or scientist in the north pole, they keep the correct day and time with no issues.

I dont see that as a good counter here.

Quote from: Alan on Tue Oct 22, 2024 - 08:44:53Interesting that Scheitzer, who is the leader of research in this field and a Christian herself, vehemently counters any claims made by YECs that the specimens must be no more than several thousand years old, she maintains that the samples used in her research were from 68 million year old bones.

Yes, that is often how faith works. We maintain our faith, even when evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Of course, knowing that one will likely lose their job if they think or speak a certain way, is a powerful control mechanism as well.

Sent you a PM with some links.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Oct 27, 2024 - 07:10:06Yes, that is often how faith works. We maintain our faith, even when evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Of course, knowing that one will likely lose their job if they think or speak a certain way, is a powerful control mechanism as well.

Nice reach, but you can't always simply make excuses so that evidence neatly fits into your personal narrative, especially something you have no clue about. 

Quote from: Alan on Tue Oct 29, 2024 - 12:06:52Nice reach, but you can't always simply make excuses so that evidence neatly fits into your personal narrative, especially something you have no clue about.

Right. Like ignoring the problems with dinosaur soft tissues tens of millions years old, and reaching for any straw of evidence that might allow for such. Recreated in a lab with exact intent and purpose, as though that has anything to do with random chance realities of preservation. 

https://www.icr.org/article/creations-bullseye/

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteCreation's Bullseye

The first sentence in a recent evolutionary news story set the stage for the rest of the article: "Flowers like hibiscus use an invisible blueprint established very early in petal formation that dictates the size of their bullseyes—a crucial pre-pattern that can significantly impact their ability to attract pollinating bees [emphasis added]."1 Such a statement could easily have come from a creation science publication. After all, blueprints come from the minds of architects or engineers and are not cobbled together by mindless processes.

Most of us read or were taught in school about flower nectar guides ("invisible blueprint"). These can only be seen under ultraviolet light, which bees just happen to have the incredible ability to see.

QuotePatterns on the flowers of plants guide insects, like bees, to the center of the flower, where nectar and pollen await, enhancing the plant's chances of successful pollination. Despite their importance, surprisingly little is known about how these petal patterns form and how they have evolved into the vast diversity we see today, including spots, stripes, veins, and bullseyes.1

The flower of Hibiscus trionum was used to investigate pattern formation on the petal epidermis. A Science Advances article stated, "The proximal epidermal cells, producing dark anthocyanin pigments, are flat, elongated, and covered with a striated cuticle, creating an iridescent blue UV signal visible to pollinators."2

Intrigued, the scientists set up an experiment using mock flower discs.

QuoteResearchers compared the relative success of the bullseye patterns in attracting pollinators using artificial flower discs that mimicked the three different bullseye dimensions. The bees not only preferred the medium and larger bullseyes over the small bullseye, they were also 25% quicker visiting these larger flower discs.1

To suggest that flower petals somehow randomly evolved to guide pollinating insects to the center of the flower is an idea, a theory, and a poor one at that. Bee and flower would have to have gradually and slowly evolved over vast time periods to achieve such amazing, detailed mutualism. But there is no way to document this. In fact, "the evolutionary processes that gave rise to these associations remain poorly understood."3 Bees have always been bees, "Bees likely originated in the Early Cretaceous, shortly before the breakup of Western Gondwana [emphasis added],"4 and angiosperms (flowers) have always been flowers, "Flowering plants likely originated between 149 and 256 million years ago according to new UCL-led research [emphasis added]."5

The Science Advances article stated,

QuoteUsing a computational model, we explore how pattern proportions are maintained while petals experience a 100-fold size increase. Exploiting transgenic lines and natural variants, we show that plants can regulate boundary position during the prepatterning phase or modulate growth on either side of this boundary later in development to vary bullseye proportions. Such modifications are functionally relevant, as buff-tailed bumblebees can reliably identify food sources based on bullseye size and prefer certain pattern proportions.2

The biologists must have gone to extremes to avoid the creation/design elephant in the lab!

When evolution is mentioned, it's with caution and hesitation—"The researchers think that these pre-patterning strategies could have deep evolutionary roots [emphasis added]."1 Creationists state the flowers were created thousands of years ago with this amazing ability of maintaining pattern proportions in petals.

The never ending issues of complexity vexing the theory of evolution. Creating serious time and development discrepancies at odds with the simple to complex model of the theory of evolution.   

https://www.icr.org/article/central-greenland-recently-ice-free/

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteCentral Greenland Recently Ice-Free, But Why?

Microfossil willow wood, fungi, insect body parts, and a poppy seed have been recovered from sediments at the bottom of central Greenland's two-mile-long GISP2 ice core. This find is similar to an earlier discovery of such fossils found in basal sediments from the Camp Century ice core near Greenland's northwest coast. These microfossils suggest that Greenland once had a tundra-like environment, with grasses but few trees. Because plants cannot grow directly in ice, this find greatly strengthens the argument that much of Greenland was ice-free relatively recently.

Although uniformitarian climate scientists think glaciers were present in Greenland long before the so-called Pleistocene Ice Age, they think it was only at the start of the Pleistocene. 6 million years ago that the glaciers merged to form a thick ice sheet that covered most of the large island. Because they think the microfossil material is significantly younger than this, perhaps around one million years old, they interpret this as evidence that much of the thick Greenland ice sheet melted away fairly recently. They also interpret this as evidence that the Greenland ice sheet is unstable and that global warming could cause a dangerous rise in global sea level.

Quote"This new study confirms and extends that a lot of sea-level rise occurred at a time when causes of warming were not especially extreme," said Richard Alley, a leading climate scientist at Penn State who reviewed the new research, "providing a warning of what damages we might cause if we continue to warm the climate."1

This is a classic example of how incorrect beliefs about past climate change can lead to incorrect conclusions about future climate change. Creation scientists agree Greenland was ice-free not that long ago, but the real question is, Why?

The Bible has the answer. About 4,500 years ago, God used a global flood to destroy the world for its wickedness, as described in Genesis. This global cataclysm, in which catastrophic plate tectonics played a major role, is the reason the world's continents are covered with thousands of feet of thick, water-deposited sedimentary rock units—rock units that contain the fossilized remains of trillions of plants and animals. The warm oceans and volcanic aerosols from this tectonic activity provided the necessary conditions for an Ice Age that lasted hundreds of years.

The Genesis Flood destroyed or uprooted every plant and tree on the planet. However, abundant plant debris and many seeds undoubtedly survived the cataclysm. Trees and shrubs can grow up quickly, but it can take many hundreds of years—perhaps even a millennium—for a thick, canopied forest to grow from naturally-planted seeds. Thus, thick, mature forests were scarce during the Ice Age, even at low latitudes. This fact has long mystified uniformitarian scientists. It is therefore not surprising that scientists are describing the environment in Greenland at that time as "an entire tundra ecosystem, perhaps with stunted trees." A tundra is defined as a biome in which tree growth is hindered due to very cold temperatures. During the Ice Age, tree growth was hindered, not so much by cold as by the fact that insufficient time had elapsed since the Flood for thick, mature forests to grow. Indeed, Ice Age biomes, almost without exception, are described even in conventional scientific literature as grassy savannahs and tundra with relatively few trees.

But what about the vast age assignments? The claim that the ice in Greenland melted about one million years ago is coming from beryllium dating of the rocky material at the base of the core. The estimated age depends upon the amount of cosmic ray exposure this rocky material received when it was at the surface. However, creation scientists think many more cosmic rays entered the atmosphere during the Ice Age. Uniformitarian scientists failing to take this into account is resulting in greatly inflated age estimates.

Also, Bible critics have long claimed that the deep GISP2 ice core, from which these microfossils were obtained, provides unassailable proof that the earth is more than 6,000 years old.11 However, creation researchers have thoroughly refuted this claim. Moreover, there is positive evidence that the earth's thick ice sheets are much younger than uniformitarian scientists claim.

This is another example of how uniformitarian and evolutionary beliefs are needlessly contributing to concerns about climate change. Not only does the origins debate have enormous spiritual implications for every single person, but it is also greatly relevant to many of today's scientific and political controversies.

https://www.youngearth.com/surtsey-island

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteSurtsey Island, Iceland, forms million-year features in 10 years

Of the brand new island that formed off the coast of Iceland in 1963, New Scientist reported in 2007 about Surtsey that "geographers... marvel that canyons, gullies and other land features that typically [i.e., allegedly] take tens of thousands or millions of years to form were created in less than a decade."

Iceland's official geologist wrote in the early months of the volcanic island of Surtsey, "that the time scale", he had been trained, "to attach to geological developments is misleading." For what is said to "take thousands of years... the same development may take a few weeks or even days here," including to form "a landscape... so varied and mature that it was almost beyond belief" with "wide sandy beaches and precipitous crags... gravel banks and lagoons, impressive cliffs... hollows, glens and soft undulating land... fractures and fault scarps, channels and screes... confounded by what met your eye... boulders worn by the surf, some of which were almost round..."

Similar to the rapid-formation lessons of Surtsey, the entire life cycle of one of the seven natural wonders of the world, the volcano Parícutin, took only nine years from it's birth, witnessed by a farmer's family in Mexico, to its going "extinct" after reaching a height of nearly 1,400 feet!)
 
Here's the Point: Of course most islands are much older than the recently formed Surtsey, but the rapidly grown formations on this island undermine the old-earth, knee-jerk assumption presented to hundreds of millions of students that the kinds of geologic features seen on Surtsey require million-year timeframes to form.

https://www.youngearth.com/grand-canyon-nautiloids

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteMillions of nautiloid fossils prove rapid Grand Canyon limestone formation

Remember the Nautiloids: In the Grand Canyon there is a limestone layer that challenges the textbook explanation of super-slow limestone formation (e.g., the NPS indicates that it took up to 35 million years for Big Bend limestone to form, and a geologist on a popular site says it took about a million years for each 18 feet at the Grand Canyon). Beginning in the east at seven feet thick, it thickens to about 40 feet as it runs the 277 miles of the canyon and beyond into to Las Vegas, Nevada. This layer contains tens of millions of fossils with an average of one nautiloid fossil per four square meters, with nearly one in seven fossilized standing vertically! Famed Mount St. Helens geologist Steve Austin is also one of the world's two leading experts on nautiloid fossils, and has worked in the canyon for years and presented his findings to the park rangers at the invitation of National Park Service officials.

With a Ph.D. in sedimentary geology from Penn State, Dr. Austin points out, as is true of many of the world's mass fossil graveyards, that this enormous nautiloid deposition, which covers more than 5,000 square miles, provides indisputable proof of the rapid formation of this significant layer of the canyon. Contrast that to the now outdated textbook explanation which has claimed that such massive limestone layers form extremely slowly as grain by grain settles to the bottom of a shallow and placid sea. But a million upright nautiloids beg to differ.
�
Many of these organisms were longer than your forearm. As seen in the canyon's walls and beyond, millions of nautiloids that were buried in an extremely rapid mass kill as this limestone layer formed. This particular bed, made up of the persistent bottom (basal) layer of the 500-foot thick Redwall Limestone, is exposed throughout the canyon. (Dr. Austin reports that he has even documented nautiloid fossils as far as Lake Mead Boulevard in Las Vegas where the Redwall Limestone is exposed.) Along with many other dead creatures in this narrow layer, 15% of these nautiloids were killed and then fossilized upright. Yes, vertically. They were catastrophically buried, being caught in a hyperconcentrated flow, such that gravity was not able to cause all of their dead carcasses to fall over onto their sides.
�
Even a strongly-biased old-earth geologist should be able to agree that, if these fossils exist, as Dr. Austin and others have been documenting them, then this must be considered hard evidence of rapid limestone deposition for this layer. However, from our experience at Real Science Radio, paleontologists, geologists, atheists, Darwinists, and even the anti-Darwinists in the Intelligent Design movement, generally have a very hard time acknowledging such powerful evidence and such obvious conclusions. Why would this be? Because that limestone layers as at the Grand Canyon only form slowly is a claim that is too big to fail.
�
For more information, see geologist Steven Austin's video at Real Science Radio's Nautiloids in Grand Canyon Limestone, see this nautiloid information in a RSR debate with popular atheist AronRa at England's League of Reason.  Finally, see the Geological Society of America abstract, the Canyon-Length Mass Kill of Orthocone, Nautiloids, Redwall Limestone (Mississippian), Grand Canyon, Arizona. This states, "Large fossil orthocone nautiloids are amassed within a thin but extremely persistent bed in the basal member of the Redwall Limestone throughout the length of the Grand Canyon. ... Fossil density... within Marble Canyon is greater than one orthocone nautiloid per four square meters. Similar nautiloid density is seen on ledges along Havasu Creek in central Grand Canyon and at a cliff face... in western Grand Canyon. ... A gigantic population of orthocone nautiloids was overcome by a a canyon-length event impacting an area exceeding one thousand square kilometers." (See also rsr.org/list-of-not-so-old-things.)
�
Here's the Point: Most scientists default to claiming super-slow deep-time processes when trying to explain many features of nature. But more careful observation though often shows hard scientific evidence that falsifies the claimed million-year process. So, while evolutionists everywhere insist otherwise, the catastrophic burial of nautiloids in a widespread limestone deposit at the Grand Canyon proves that layer formed rapidly. And unless we refuse to learn this big lesson from history, we should now challenge similar slow-process claims elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p-o3IH1e8A

Another very good Answers in Genesis Canada.

Quote from: Amo on Fri Nov 01, 2024 - 15:01:40https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p-o3IH1e8A

Another very good Answers in Genesis Canada.

I agree

Of course, we all know that God is not smart enough to have established evolution as the design procedure He chose to use for His creation.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 05:56:09Of course, we all know that God is not smart enough to have established evolution as the design procedure He chose to use for His creation.

Look... You want to believe in evolution. FINE.

But there is zero, anywhere in the Christian holy bible, that such could be the case.

Evolution that brought us to the point of the need for a man and a woman joining to produce human life.... and it is always.... never anything else...is popycock.

Monkeys produce monkeys, apes produce apes... and so on.

Only mans insatiable need for sex produced a kind of hybrid with Neanderthals and humans... or even... as the bible tells us fallen angels
and earthly women. The result were giants....

But there were hybrids not unlike a Liger, or Mule, or many others.

Hybrids are not evolution..... see link

https://listverse.com/2018/06/25/10-experiments-that-have-created-real-human-animal-hybrids/

Quote from: Rella on Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 06:17:48Look... You want to believe in evolution. FINE.

But there is zero, anywhere in the Christian holy bible, that such could be the case.

Evolution that brought us to the point of the need for a man and a woman joining to produce human life.... and it is always.... never anything else...is popycock.

Monkeys produce monkeys, apes produce apes... and so on.

Only mans insatiable need for sex produced a kind of hybrid with Neanderthals and humans... or even... as the bible tells us fallen angels
and earthly women. The result were giants....

But there were hybrids not unlike a Liger, or Mule, or many others.

Hybrids are not evolution..... see link

https://listverse.com/2018/06/25/10-experiments-that-have-created-real-human-animal-hybrids/

Rella, I don't necessarily believe in evolution.  But there is a fair bit of data that suggests that something like evolution has occurred.  And I have no doubt whatsoever, that if God has chosen any aspect of evolution as His plan for His creation, I can accept that He is capable of doing just that.  I see nothing in evolution, generally, that conflicts with God's word.

And for what it is worth, I find nothing on God's word that says anything about gravity, electromagnetism, chemistry, nor any other branch of science.  That doesn't mean they aren't real.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 05:56:09Of course, we all know that God is not smart enough to have established evolution as the design procedure He chose to use for His creation.

God most certainly did design the ability for change and adaptation within the creatures of this world which He created. He just did not use this designed feature, as the mechanism for our existence over eons of time. To the contrary, He has very plainly stated the duration of the creation event and or week.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,......
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

https://www.icr.org/article/does-pauli-exclusion-rescue-dino-protein/

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteDoes Pauli Exclusion Rescue Dino Protein?

Perhaps no other fossil discoveries have rocked the world of paleontology more than original organics like proteins in old bones. ICR helps curate a list of mainstream science publications that describe what's inside these fossils: hemoglobin, chromosomes, whole cells, tissue scraps, and bone collagen. The number exceeds 120, making the presence of proteins and similar finds an increasingly common occurrence.1 So what's the big deal?

Inevitable chemical reactions turn even the most resistant biological materials (or "biomaterials" for short) into dust in fewer than one million years under ideal conditions, whereas the fossils that contain them were supposedly deposited tens to hundreds of millions of years ago. Evolutionary workers strive to protect deep time from this chemistry. While the latest attempt describes how the front door to collagen longevity stands strong against destructive chemistry, it ignores a wide-open back door.

Publishing in ACS Central Science, MIT chemists used three different angles to describe collagen's resistance to a particularly common chemical reaction with water molecules.2 First, they synthesized chemicals that mimic the three-dimensional structure of collagen, including its hydrogen bonding and electron-sharing attributes. They made three versions and tested how each behaved in water. Sure enough, the version most like collagen resisted water-based chemistry the longest.

Next, they used sophisticated software to model the complicated intermolecular interactions, the upshot being that once all three individually manufactured collagen strands wind around one another to form its three-stranded molecular rope, electron-sharing and hydrogen-bonding sequester otherwise chemically reactive features.

Last, they validated their computed chemical structures with X-ray crystallography. This technique snapshots the three-dimensional chemical structure of small molecules.

A key term in their report is the "Pauli Exclusion Principle." This refers to the status of electrons in an atom or molecule. When more than one electron occupies the same orbital, or zone, one electron always differs from its partner in at least one aspect—usually its spin direction. When it comes to collagen, its collection of electrons comes pleasantly partnered, beautifully balanced, and, in short, too happy with themselves to want to react with outsiders. The MIT team ended up with an unprecedentedly detailed description of the tightly-bonded structure of bone collagen.

Then came the conclusion, which far overstepped the worthy results. The study authors wrote, "This discovery has implications for the stability of collagen, which is replete with n→π* [contented electron] interactions and has remained intact for (at least) hundreds of millions of years, exceeding the half-life of a peptide bond by a millionfold or more."2

What implications? They don't specify one.

What data did they collect to justify the conclusion that collagen has remained intact for hundreds of millions of years? None. They simply argued in a circle.

Since the fossil was supposedly buried for 200 million years, and since the fossil has collagen in it, therefore the collagen has been buried for 200 million years. But this exceeds the decay rate of peptide bonds as well as the measured decay rate of bone collagen under ideal conditions!

In the final analysis, this study may have done a great job at explaining the long-known fact that collagen is insoluble in water and why collagen lasts for thousands of years, for example in the form of skin parchments like the Dead Sea Scrolls, but that's it. In other words, the study may suggest that all these intricate molecular arrangements explain the longevity we can observe and measure in collagen, but what experimental or computation result addresses the longevity that evolutionary time assumes in the face of experimental data?

Senior author Paul Raines told MIT News, "There's no weak link, and that's why I think it has survived."3 But survived for how long? These experiments did not address that question. We need a decay rate study to address it, and those have already been performed.4–6 They come as close to "proof" as experimental science can that collagen—tough though it is—does not last a million years at reasonable temperatures.

Two culprits lurk at the core of the outlandish conclusion that collagen can last "a million or more" times longer than measured peptide bond decay rates. First, circular reasoning displaces science when researchers presume the conclusion that collagen has lasted tens of millions of years before even evaluating that conclusion. Second, while the Pauli Exclusion Principle surely accounts for collagen's absence of "weak links" within its chain of amino acids, it does not apply to the ends of those chains—a topic of conspicuous absence from this study.

What lies at each end of a tightly woven molecular strand of collagen? What did the MIT researchers leapfrog? The fact that chemistry happens on collagen's exposed ends, quite like fraying ropes.

The middle of the collagen rope is like a strong door that resists water chemistry, but its ends are like back doors where water and other molecules do chemistry. The strong doors keep collagen viable for thousands of years, but the back doors ensure collagen's demise before one million years have elapsed—at least according to the science of decay.

Two clear points surface from this report. First, when it comes to evolutionary time, circular reasoning once again substitutes for good science.7 Last, even with the Pauli Exclusion Principle to ensure that the middle of collagen molecules resists water chemistry, chemical reactions still take place at their measured rates—rates that exclude millions of years.

https://www.livescience.com/animals/extinct-species/oldest-tadpole-on-record-was-a-jurassic-giant

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

QuoteOldest tadpole on record was a Jurassic giant

The fossilization of the tadpole's "delicate structures," like its eyes and gills, allowed for a detailed analysis of the rare find.

While searching for dinosaur fossils in Argentina, paleontologists made an accidental discovery: the oldest tadpole ever found.

The fossil, unearthed in the La Matilde Formation in Patagonia, may finally settle a debate about frog evolution, the scientists reported Wednesday (Oct. 30) in the journal Nature.

The fossil is a fantastically preserved specimen of the frog species Notobatrachus degiustoi, complete with imprints of soft tissues, including the animal's eyeballs, gills and nerves, according to the research.

The specimen dates to around 161 million years ago during the middle Jurassic. The next oldest tadpole had been dated to the early Cretaceous, 145 million to 100 million years ago. The newfound fossil is also the first ancient tadpole that has been matched to its adult counterpart in the fossil record. It may settle a debate about when the tadpole stage of frog development evolved.

"There are some researchers that state that probably the most [ancient] frogs didn't have a tadpole stage," said Mariana Chuliver, an evolutionary biologist at Maimónides University in Buenos Aires and first author of the paper. That's because the oldest frog fossil on record dates to the late Triassic (around 217 million years ago), tens of millions of years before the oldest known tadpole fossils. But by discovering this fossil, "we demonstrated that was not true," she said.

Generally, tadpole fossils are hard to come by, as the juvenile swimmers usually die while still in water. With scavengers ready to feast on fallen critters, the water can sometimes be a bad place for fossilization. In addition, tadpoles are made mostly of cartilage and soft tissue; they don't form the hard bones that fossilize more easily until adulthood.

"Luckily, this tadpole is in an advanced stage of development," Chuliver told Live Science. The vertebrae of the tadpole had begun to ossify, allowing researchers to see the bumps and ridges of the spine that helped them identify the species and connect the tadpole to its adult counterpart.

"The most amazing thing for me is the preservation of such delicate structures," Chuliver said, "which is really hard to find in the fossil record." The size of the specimen was also helpful for identifying the species, she added. The tadpole was about 6 inches (16 centimeters) long — like a baseball with a 3-inch-long (7.6 cm) tail. The adult frog is just as big, which surprised the researchers.

"Both [juvenile and adult] stages being giant is really hard to find in nature today," Chuliver said. But for N. degiustoi, the ponds of the Jurassic had ample resources, and the tadpoles could afford a longer development time, she suggested.

However, other than its size, the body of the N. degiustoi tadpole is very similar to that of a modern tadpole. Imprints of spiny projections on the gills indicated that the tadpole likely even ate the same way modern tadpoles do, with a filter-feeding system that allows it to suck plankton, algae and detritus from the water around it. Considering these complex systems had already evolved in tadpoles 161 million years ago, tadpoles have likely been around just as long as adult frogs have, the researchers suggested.

Chuliver hopes to get more funding to return to the La Matilde Formation in search of more tadpoles to expand the fossil record.

Sierra Bouchér

Giant tadpoles and frogs. Just add them to the ever growing list of giant animals of the past pre flood world. Excellent fossil preservation which is not as rare as the article and so many others I have read suggest. They are rather a direct result of the countless catastrophic rapid burials which took place during the global flood, and or later catastrophes directly connected to the same. Little to no change in the tadpoles and frogs for 161 million years now, meaning no evolution, more like de-evolution once again. To the much smaller creatures we generally see today, in comparison to the ever increasing number of giant one's discovered as time continues. All of the same, pointing once again to complexity from the beginning as the creation account of scripture suggests. A direction those of the evolutionary faith simply will not go, regardless of ever increasing observable evidence of the same. So be it.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Nov 03, 2024 - 07:24:34https://www.icr.org/article/does-pauli-exclusion-rescue-dino-protein/

Quoted article below from link above.

Timely posting.

I have just been talking with a poster on another forum who just sent me this.....

I am going to send him what you post here...

He had written... As we are mini discussing young earth old earth stuff and I pointed out dinosaurs are not mentioned in the bible....

Just to catch you up a bit:

There are plenty of recent findings about dinosaurs and with collagen. Collagen can only last about 6000 years in exposure to oxygen. Dr. Schweitzer, not a Christian, has handled collagen that stretches and goes back to shape.

There a Biblical references to huge creatures in Job and Psalms. Search behemoth, monster, leviathan, etc in Biblegateway.com.

Velikovsky called it right about Jupiter and also has done very worthwhile studies coordinating ancient references to astronomical events.

I am going to copy your post here... and hope I might be able to get
him to join here for a discussion or two because there are enough of you that could share back and forth.

Quote from: Rella on Sun Nov 03, 2024 - 08:06:48Timely posting.

I have just been talking with a poster on another forum who just sent me this.....

I am going to send him what you post here...

He had written... As we are mini discussing young earth old earth stuff and I pointed out dinosaurs are not mentioned in the bible....

Just to catch you up a bit:

There are plenty of recent findings about dinosaurs and with collagen. Collagen can only last about 6000 years in exposure to oxygen. Dr. Schweitzer, not a Christian, has handled collagen that stretches and goes back to shape.

There a Biblical references to huge creatures in Job and Psalms. Search behemoth, monster, leviathan, etc in Biblegateway.com.

Velikovsky called it right about Jupiter and also has done very worthwhile studies coordinating ancient references to astronomical events.

I am going to copy your post here... and hope I might be able to get
him to join here for a discussion or two because there are enough of you that could share back and forth.

Sounds like a good idea.

Quote from: Rella on Sat Nov 02, 2024 - 06:17:48But there is zero, anywhere in the Christian holy bible, that such could be the case.

That's due to the writer's ignorance of such phenomenon at the time. There are many, many things not mentioned in the Bible that are evident today, we could go on all day about such things. 

Quote from: Rella on Sun Nov 03, 2024 - 08:06:48There a Biblical references to huge creatures in Job and Psalms. Search behemoth, monster, leviathan, etc in Biblegateway.com.

If there were dinosaurs existing at the same time as humans, our entire existence would be based upon protecting ourselves from these creatures. It certainly wouldn't be a trivial mention in a 1200 page book.

Carnivorous dinosaurs thrived where populations of prey lived, Spinosaurus lived in Egypt, but there is not one mention of such a predator living among the people in any of their writings.

Quote from: Alan on Mon Nov 04, 2024 - 06:55:29That's due to the writer's ignorance of such phenomenon at the time. There are many, many things not mentioned in the Bible that are evident today, we could go on all day about such things.

And that is the exact problem and sin of deep time evolutionary professing "Christians". They call the revealed truths of God's word through His holy prophets, and that spoken by His own mouth to humanity and written with his own finger in stone twice, ignorance. They place themselves so far above God's word as to declare it ignorance to believe what God has simply stated as the truth. Declaring their speculations and vain imaginings to be truth, while the word of God is apparently just fairly tales, and or some incomprehensible allegories or myths. Nevertheless -

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

Quote from: Alan on Mon Nov 04, 2024 - 07:08:34If there were dinosaurs existing at the same time as humans, our entire existence would be based upon protecting ourselves from these creatures. It certainly wouldn't be a trivial mention in a 1200 page book.

Carnivorous dinosaurs thrived where populations of prey lived, Spinosaurus lived in Egypt, but there is not one mention of such a predator living among the people in any of their writings.

Just more hubris concerning the vain imaginations of those who reject the testimony of holy scripture in favor of their supposed wisdom. As though they actually know the demeanor of the creatures they wrongly testify lived millions of years ago, toward humanity whom God declared Humanity ruled over prior to the flood, and put the fear of humanity upon after it. These two accounts also being ignored or disbelieved as well, to accommodate their faith in their own vain imaginings.

This is not to mention their sin of presumption, in believing humanity was at one time a brutish and intellectually inferior race slowly evolving, rather than the highly developed and perfect creation God's word declares it was from the beginning. A people well capable of handling dinosaurs, let alone any of the other inferior albeit larger animals of their day.

Contradictory presumption upon presumption according to greater faith they have in their own vain imaginings, than the straight testimony of the word of God. Prideful, heady, high-minded, self proclaimed prophets of truth over and above the testimony of the word of God. From such turn away.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Quote from: Alan on Mon Nov 04, 2024 - 07:08:34If there were dinosaurs existing at the same time as humans, our entire existence would be based upon protecting ourselves from these creatures. It certainly wouldn't be a trivial mention in a 1200 page book.

Carnivorous dinosaurs thrived where populations of prey lived, Spinosaurus lived in Egypt, but there is not one mention of such a predator living among the people in any of their writings.

So you discount There are plenty of recent findings about dinosaurs and with collagen. Collagen can only last about 6000 years in exposure to oxygen. Dr. Schweitzer, not a Christian, has handled collagen that stretches and goes back to shape.

Or is your explanation that it would have been sealed in the skin of the animals?