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Yep. Reincarnation is THE key... not 'a' key, but THE key to understanding Scripture.

Unfortunately, you folks are not allowed to even think about it, much less discuss and/or debate it.

Most forums ban and censor this topic. Hopefully some of you here have enough Critical Thinking Skills to know why.

Quote from: Quantumbit on Fri Nov 08, 2024 - 21:30:00Yep. Reincarnation is THE key... not 'a' key, but THE key to understanding Scripture.

Unfortunately, you folks are not allowed to even think about it, much less discuss and/or debate it.

Most forums ban and censor this topic. Hopefully some of you here have enough Critical Thinking Skills to know why.

Listen...

If you want any consideration that you even know what you think you undeerstand you need to give verse and explanation ... open to debate

Otherwise if not banned we will assume you are an idiot.

You can absolutely discuss it here in Non-Trad.  Go for it.  I think you can probably make a case from Ecclesiastes.

 

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 10:11:12You can absolutely discuss it here in Non-Trad.  Go for it.  I think you can probably make a case from Ecclesiastes.

 

Right-on Wycliffes_Shillelagh. I appreciate it. 

Quote from: Rella on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 06:21:36Listen...

If you want any consideration that you even know what you think you undeerstand you need to give verse and explanation ... open to debate

Hi Rella. I hear you. The problem is that I have done just what you said many times over the years, in other forums, and it all gets deleted.

Because of this, I have decided not to waste my time unless a Moderator approves, which it looks like he has. 

Quote from: Rella on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 06:21:36Otherwise if not banned we will assume you are an idiot.

But why assume that? Are you not aware that most people on the planet do not believe that a God of Love 'torments people to infinity' or 'annihilates them'?

Why should they, especially when it is not even Biblical?

In my humble opinion, someone who believes something so utterly disgusting as infinite torments and annihilation is the likely candidate for being a so called 'idiot'.

The Bible teaches no such thing. It is the Church that made up that sickness.

Universalists are close to figuring it all out, but they fall short.

Where would you folks like to begin?

• Genesis?
• Revelation?
• Somewhere in between?

How about the Lake of Fire?

The Lake of Fire has several names in the Bible. One of them is 'Gehenna'. This word comes from the Old Testament, and a place called the 'Valley of the Son/Children of Hinnom'. Another name for the Lake of Fire is 'Tophet'...

2 Kings 23:10
"And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech."

What does that word mean and where did it come from? A clue is found in the following verse...

Isaiah 30:33 (KJV)
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

Here is another translation...

Isaiah 30:33 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
"For a hearth is ordered of old; Yea, for the king it is prepared, Deep and large; The pile thereof is fire and much wood; The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

Notice how the word 'Tophet' is replaced with 'Hearth'? That is because the word 'Tophet' is synonymous with the word 'Hearth'. This connection is very important to remember.

Let us examine another verse from the Old Testament regarding the Tabernacle in the Wilderness...

Leviticus 6:13
"The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out."

The 'Everlasting Fire' of God was to always be burning in the Brazen Altar. Think of the phrase 'Everlasting Fire' and how it is used in other verses...

Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

If we study the Everlasting Fire in Hebrew, we find this interesting bit of information...

'Esh' means Fire...
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/784.htm

'Jah' means Jehovah...
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3050.htm

Together they form 'Esh-Jah', the Fire of the LORD. Why is this important? According to Biblical Scholars, the word Tophet is another name for a Goddess called 'Vesta'...

"...it is well known that the Romans had their goddess Vesta, whom Velleius Paterculus calls the keeper of the perpetual fires; and there were certain virgins, called the "vestal" virgins, whose business it was to take care that the fire never went out; and is by Virgil called the eternal fire..."

In the above quote, we see that Vesta, the Goddess of the Hearth, is associated with Eternal Fire. If we keep reading, we discover that Vesta is synonymous with Esh-Jah, the Fire of the LORD that was to be ever burning...

"...and Vesta itself is thought by some learned men to be the same with (hy-va) "Esh-jah", the fire of Jehovah..."

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/leviticus-6-13.html

Vesta is the Roman equivalent to the Greek Hestia. We can see how the pronunciation of 'esh-jah' sounds similar to 'Hestia'. That is because the word 'Hestia' comes from 'Esh-Jah' and later evolved to 'Vesta'.

Interestingly, Hestia is the Sister of Hades. The word 'Hades' is used in the Bible several times...

Revelation 20:14 (New International Version)
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Thus, it is no surprise that Hestia/Vesta would be in the Bible as well. And since Vesta/Hestia is the Goddess of the Hearth, we find that she is a perfect match for Tophet...

Isaiah 30:33 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
"For a hearth is ordered of old; Yea, for the king it is prepared, Deep and large; The pile thereof is fire and much wood; The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

We can now study who Vesta was to gain insight as to what the Lake of Fire is really all about. An old Hebrew to English Lexicon reveals the answer...

HEBREW AND ENGLISH LEXICON, JOHN PARKHURST, 1823, PAGE 569...

https://archive.org/details/hebrewenglishlex00parkuoft/page/568/mode/2up

Here is a screenshot of the page...


Several meanings are given as to what Tophet means, however when all of the evidence is analyzed, the meaning that fits perfectly is of course the Goddess Vesta, the 'Perpetual Fire'.

Now for the punchline. Are you ready for the Big Reveal as to what the Lake of Fire is?

From Wikipedia:

"The myths depicting Vesta and her priestesses were few; the most notable of them were tales of miraculous impregnation of a virgin priestess by a phallus appearing in the flames of the sacred hearth — the manifestation of the goddess combined with a male supernatural being."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesta_(mythology)

It turns out that Vesta is almost never depicted in art. You see why. Vesta is the Moment of Conception.

Now we know what ultimately happens to the Unsaved.  :) They come back for another try. God really is Love after all.

How about a teaching from Jesus? Something simple...

Matthew 23:15 (Berean Literal Bible)
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse the sea and the dry land to make one convert, and whenever it may happen, you make him twofold more a son of Gehenna than yourselves.

What is Gehenna? Ultimately, it is the Lake of Fire. Look at what Jesus is teaching. The phrase 'Son of Gehenna' is *LITERAL*.

Is Jesus the Son of God, or is it simply a 'figure of speech'?

What about all of the other instances in the Bible that uses the phrase 'Son of'. Are they just poetry or are they literal?

Why do you make Matthew 23:15 non-literal and other verses literal? It is because you were *told* to do that. Otherwise, you would see and understand the plain simple meaning.

Quote from: Quantumbit on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 11:34:04Matthew 23:15 (Berean Literal Bible)
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse the sea and the dry land to make one convert, and whenever it may happen, you make him twofold more a son of Gehenna than yourselves.

According to Jesus, children are literally born out of Gehenna. You see it for yourself, yet you do not believe it.

Look here...

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

Were you folks taught that the 'Lowest Parts of the Earth' is Hell or perhaps Sheol?

So then why does the Word of God teach that babies come from there? You see it for yourself as plain as can be.

What about the Apostles' Creed?

"...descended into hell, rose again from the dead on the third day,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed

What exactly is this so called 'Hell' that Jesus 'descended' into?

The phrase descendit ad inferos ('he descended into hell') is not found in the Nicene Creed. It echoes Ephesians 4:9, "κατέβη εἰς τὰ κατώτερα μέρη τῆς γῆς" ('he descended into the lower earthly regions').

OK, let us examine said verse...

Ephesians 4:9
"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

When did Jesus first descend? He first descended into the womb of Mary!

You all know this!

John 3:13
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Again, the 'Lower/Lowest Parts of the Earth' is a euphemism for the womb. Jesus *first* descended into Mary to incarnate.

Look again...

In the lowest parts of the earth.—This figurative allusion to the womb is intended no doubt to heighten the feeling of mystery attaching to birth.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/139-15.htm

These are Scholar's commentaries. Good luck arguing against them.

Quote from: Quantumbit on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 11:23:26The Lake of Fire has several names in the Bible. One of them is 'Gehenna'. This word comes from the Old Testament, and a place called the 'Valley of the Son/Children of Hinnom'.

2 Kings 23:10
"And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech."

Do you not see the word 'children' in the above verse? Gehenna is about children being born to someone! It is literally in the name! Like... duh. How can you folks not see the obvious?

What else do you see in the verse? The children PASS THROUGH the fire. They do not 'burn for infinity'. The Lake of Fire is a portal. That is what the verses teach. If you wish to ignore it, that is on you.

This is simple exegesis here.

I will do one more post and then take a break. This one will most likely trigger serious Cognitive Dissonance, so proceed with caution.

The lies of the Church begin with the story of Adam and the Woman. Christians must be conditioned, brainwashed, coerced, etc. into altering the Word of God to make it say something it does not.

Look...

Genesis 2:17
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Every single one of you do not believe the verse. As far as I know, I am the only human being on the planet that does.

You were all forced to change either 'day' into 'a thousand years' or you were forced to change 'surely die' into 'spiritual death' or 'began to die' or some other non-Biblical nonsense.

*YOU* changed it, not me.

The verse is LITERAL. The Man and Woman *DIED* that literal day. It was a physical death.

Go back and read Genesis without your pre-programmed bias. Do you see the name 'Eve' before the Fall? Nope. YOU people add that!

This is not Eve...

Genesis 2:23
"And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

She shall be called what? Eve? Nope. She shall be called 'Woman' or Ishshah. This is a different person! Ishshah is the one who died after partaking of the Forbidden Fruit.

Ishshah was then REINCARNATED into Eve. That is why she received a new name. It is all there as plain as can be. Again, you folks are the ones taking away and adding unto the Word of God to make it say what you want.

This verse describes the Resurrection of Damnation...

Genesis 3:7
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

Their eyes were closed because they were dead on the ground. You folks never even bothered to consider this possible solution to all of the supposed 'contradictions' between Genesis 1 and 2.

Too busy being full of yourselves and looking down at folks like me from your high horse. Quit being so arrogant.

'Surely Die' is literal, physical death...

Well,

 

Is the God of the Christian Bible a God of Hate?

What does this verse actually teach?

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

There is an assumption that 'for ever and ever' always means 'infinity'.

Here is another translation...

Revelation 20:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages."

If we interpreted the verse through the lens of a God of Mercy and a God of Grace, we discover that 'aion' could simply mean a period of time.

The phrase "unto the ages of ages" expresses either the idea of eternity, or an indeterminate number of aeons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unto_the_ages_of_ages

This is interesting...

At first, it was typically used to indicate the lifespan of a single person...

If we looked at what happens to the Beast, we find that indeed he is reincarnated over and over, age after age, lifespan after lifespan.

It was there all along...

Revelation 17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

• The Beast 'was' = The Beast used to be alive.
• The Beast 'is not' = The Beast died.
• The Beast 'shall ascend' = The Beast will be REINCARNATED.

How much more obvious could God have made it for you? The phrase 'was, and is not, and yet is' is literally reincarnation!

Did any of you even bother to put the evidence together? Of course not. You are too filled with hatred to 'love your enemies'. You want your enemies to 'burn for infinity'. Disgusting. You learned nothing.

Let go of your hatred people. The world is on to you. It is wicked for you to keep spreading your lies. It makes us all look bad.

What do the Seven Heads of the Dragon and Beast symbolize?

Revelation 13:1
"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

Each 'head' is a REINCARNATION of the Beast! It is just that simple. Common sense should have told you that.

It is the same Beast. It dies and reincarnates over and over. Each time it reincarnates, another head is added. A Caveman can figure this out.

Why does the Harlot 'sit' on the so called 'Mountains'?

Revelation 17:9-10 (English Standard Version)
This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

I will give you a Pro Tip of which some of you clearly do not deserve. Mountains in the Bible are symbolic of the Male Generative Principle, i.e., the Phallus. You're welcome.

When the Harlot 'sits' on the Phallic Mountain, it is euphemism for procreation. IT IS LITERAL.

The Mountains are Kings. Yes, because that is what the Male Member does. It plants its Seed into the fertile Earth of a Woman's Womb.

It is yet another verse describing reincarnation. That is what the Harlot does! She is symbolic of how we got here... as in from the Lowest Parts of the Earth.

Do any of you smug arrogant posters on this forum have any idea what the Golden Cup she holds represents? Of course not. You are too busy calling me 'idiot' and 'ignorant' to see past your ungodly hubris.

I will cast yet more pearls...

Revelation 17:4
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:"

Were you told that the Golden Cup represents the 'false teachings' and 'doctrines of debils' of the Church next door? Oh, but not your Chruch right? Pfffft. Such arrogance.

Again, the contents are LITERAL... as in Sperm and Ovum. And guess what? It is also the Forbidden Fruit.

You all partook of it to be conceived in your Mom's belly. Reincarnation. It is Euphemism, the Meat of the Word you were never taught. You all should be chastised for not knowing something so simple. Shame on you.

And look, the Unsaved will drink and be reincarnated again...

Revelation 14:10
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

You drank it the last time. That is how you got here!

Revelation 14:8
"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

Everyone partook...

Jeremiah 51:7
"Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad."

And here you are pushing your luck again. You better humble yourselves and realize how you got here. Show Love, Mercy, Grace to those that have to go through the Lake of Fire another time.

Again, Mountains are symbolic of the Phallus...

Isaiah 2:2
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."

Do you see it? Flow? As in Seminal Fluid? It is Euphemism.

New Jerusalem, the Heavenly Mother of us all, 'sits' on the Mountain of God. Get it? Procreation?


The Lamb is Abraham's Seed. Do you know what Seed is? It proceeds from the tip of the Mountain. A Caveman can see this.

Look...

Revelation 22:2
"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

The Mother of us all bares 'Fruit' on a Monthly Period. Get it?

The Tree of Life is symbolic of Ovary. They are fertilized by the Seminal Fluid proceeding from the Phallic Throne (You know... the 'top of the Mountain'?) and Lamb, the Seed of Abraham...

Revelation 22:1
"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."

How can you people be so blind to the symbolism? Who did this to you?

The Harlot sits on 'many Waters'...

Revelation 17:1
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"

Again, the 'Waters' are symbolic of Seminal Fluid. Specifically, the Seminal Fluid of every Human Being that ever lived. SHE SAT ON THEM AND GAVE BIRTH TO US...

Revelation 17:15
"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

Waters! Look!


https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4325.htm

Put it together people before it is too late.

Your Father the Devil...


Was Jesus being literal?

John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Or was it just a 'figure of speech' for us to not believe?

Euphemism people! The Meat of the Word. Not for infants. The Harlot 'rides the Beast'. Go find an adult to explain it to you.

By the way...

The 'bottoms of the Mountain' in that Tarot is called 'Outer Darkness' where the Unsaved are 'bundled' until they are 'vomited' onto the Dry Land of the Womb to search for the Temple and fertilize it. Yeah, Jonah is about Reincarnation as well. He was wrapped in seaweed and went to the 'bottom of the Mountains'... as in Testicles... as in Outer Darkness.

The 'fish' is symbolic of Sperm. Jonah was imprisoned in it. He was 'vomited out'.

If you understand, you are welcome.

If you do not understand, feel free to put me on ignore like Mr. 'Hell's Daily Tally' did. Stay ignorant for the rest of your life if that is what you choose. I could not care less. Drown in your hubris.

I am not here to play tiddlywinks with those of you that chose to be on the Milk.

The 'Serpent' casts Seminal Fluid at the Ovum Moon...

Revelation 12:15
"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

Euphemism!

It is a Seed War... remember?

Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

See that word?


You people have no idea what the symbolism is teaching!!!

The Woman on the Moon represents the Protected Ovum that carries the lineage of Jesus for 1,260 years from the Tabernacle in the Wilderness to the birth of Jesus.

The 'Woman' the Ovum, the Moon, is protected from the Seed of the Serpent!

Revelation 12:14
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

Again, the Protected Ovum is nourished in the wombs of all the women that carried the Seed for 1,260 years. From the Wilderness of Moses to Mary.

It is not future. It is Finished!

Ah,

We have the Calvenists and non-Calvenists both of whom support their sides within the four corners of the Holy Bible.

We have the Trinitarians and the anit trins both of whom support their sides within the four corners of the Holy Bible.

We have the assorted cults from the RCC to the JWs all of whom support their sides within the four corners of the Holy Bible.

We have the arguers of Jesus being born , actually created, before
earth was actually formed. (Not speaking The Word here, but Jesus Himself) and they support their side within the four corners of the Bible they read.

We have the baptize saves vs the born again (faith) saves all of whom support their sides within the four corners of the Holy Bible.

We have those that were baby baptized vs those that say the families of the Jailor and Lydia had no children when all their families were
baptized at the same time all of whom support their sides with what they believe the Holy Bible says.

We have those that say Adam followed by Eve were the first people vs those that say the man and woman in Gen 1 are not Adam and Eve and they also support their views based on what their personal interpretations are.

We have those that are dogmatic that creation took place in 144 literal (earth) hours, vs those that believe it was longer, again beliefs coming from the bible.

And a whole lot more that I could name...


And now this. Something more suggested for the mind to read and think on, or ignore....

And I have finally come to the conclusion that I do not think I am smart enough to be a Christian   

Or you could not get caught up in all these stupid distinctives and focus on the basics. 

Although, I would say it takes getting indoctrinated, not smarts to believe some of these newer doctrines.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Sun Nov 10, 2024 - 07:06:42Or you could not get caught up in all these stupid distinctives and focus on the basics. 

Although, I would say it takes getting indoctrinated, not smarts to believe some of these newer doctrines.

I dont. Believe them. I am too busy making sammiches for you to get involved.

But someone might write a series or make a movie and a whole lotta people would agree.

Quote from: Quantumbit on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 11:23:26Where would you folks like to begin?

• Genesis?
• Revelation?
• Somewhere in between?

How about the Lake of Fire?

The Lake of Fire has several names in the Bible. One of them is 'Gehenna'. This word comes from the Old Testament, and a place called the 'Valley of the Son/Children of Hinnom'. Another name for the Lake of Fire is 'Tophet'...

2 Kings 23:10
"And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech."

What does that word mean and where did it come from? A clue is found in the following verse...

Isaiah 30:33 (KJV)
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

Here is another translation...

Isaiah 30:33 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
"For a hearth is ordered of old; Yea, for the king it is prepared, Deep and large; The pile thereof is fire and much wood; The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

Notice how the word 'Tophet' is replaced with 'Hearth'? That is because the word 'Tophet' is synonymous with the word 'Hearth'. This connection is very important to remember.

Let us examine another verse from the Old Testament regarding the Tabernacle in the Wilderness...

Leviticus 6:13
"The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out."

The 'Everlasting Fire' of God was to always be burning in the Brazen Altar. Think of the phrase 'Everlasting Fire' and how it is used in other verses...

Matthew 25:41
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"

If we study the Everlasting Fire in Hebrew, we find this interesting bit of information...

'Esh' means Fire...
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/784.htm

'Jah' means Jehovah...
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3050.htm

Together they form 'Esh-Jah', the Fire of the LORD. Why is this important? According to Biblical Scholars, the word Tophet is another name for a Goddess called 'Vesta'...

"...it is well known that the Romans had their goddess Vesta, whom Velleius Paterculus calls the keeper of the perpetual fires; and there were certain virgins, called the "vestal" virgins, whose business it was to take care that the fire never went out; and is by Virgil called the eternal fire..."

In the above quote, we see that Vesta, the Goddess of the Hearth, is associated with Eternal Fire. If we keep reading, we discover that Vesta is synonymous with Esh-Jah, the Fire of the LORD that was to be ever burning...

"...and Vesta itself is thought by some learned men to be the same with (hy-va) "Esh-jah", the fire of Jehovah..."

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/leviticus-6-13.html

Vesta is the Roman equivalent to the Greek Hestia. We can see how the pronunciation of 'esh-jah' sounds similar to 'Hestia'. That is because the word 'Hestia' comes from 'Esh-Jah' and later evolved to 'Vesta'.

Interestingly, Hestia is the Sister of Hades. The word 'Hades' is used in the Bible several times...

Revelation 20:14 (New International Version)
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Thus, it is no surprise that Hestia/Vesta would be in the Bible as well. And since Vesta/Hestia is the Goddess of the Hearth, we find that she is a perfect match for Tophet...

Isaiah 30:33 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
"For a hearth is ordered of old; Yea, for the king it is prepared, Deep and large; The pile thereof is fire and much wood; The breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

We can now study who Vesta was to gain insight as to what the Lake of Fire is really all about. An old Hebrew to English Lexicon reveals the answer...

HEBREW AND ENGLISH LEXICON, JOHN PARKHURST, 1823, PAGE 569...

https://archive.org/details/hebrewenglishlex00parkuoft/page/568/mode/2up

Here is a screenshot of the page...

Several meanings are given as to what Tophet means, however when all of the evidence is analyzed, the meaning that fits perfectly is of course the Goddess Vesta, the 'Perpetual Fire'.

Now for the punchline. Are you ready for the Big Reveal as to what the Lake of Fire is?

From Wikipedia:

"The myths depicting Vesta and her priestesses were few; the most notable of them were tales of miraculous impregnation of a virgin priestess by a phallus appearing in the flames of the sacred hearth — the manifestation of the goddess combined with a male supernatural being."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesta_(mythology)

It turns out that Vesta is almost never depicted in art. You see why. Vesta is the Moment of Conception.

Now we know what ultimately happens to the Unsaved.  :) They come back for another try. God really is Love after all.

This was an interesting rabbit-hole.  Ultimately, I don't think the case for Molech being Hestia/Vesta is very good. 

Latin Vesta comes from Greek Hestia, sure.  But Molech appears to be an Ammonite god, with no similar god in Greek/Latin/Babylonian/ mythology.  A case could be made for the Canaanite goddess Zebub, but there's no grammatical similarity, gender is wrong... not a strong candidate.

The idea of Vesta/Hestia as a goddess of conception is also suspect, with both being eternal virgins.

Quote from: Quantumbit on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 11:34:04What about all of the other instances in the Bible that uses the phrase 'Son of'. Are they just poetry or are they literal?

Most are literal but "son of man" is mostly metaphorical, and "sons of god" is... suspect.  "Son of..." is always a little weird, since Hebrew concludes ALL DESCENDENTS under the title, even when it IS literal.

Throw in the New Testament idea that ALL GENEALOGIES are to be disregarded, and the conflicting genealogies in Matthew and Luke, and I don't think there's much of anything that can be established from the "begats."

Quote from: Quantumbit on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 11:51:32According to Jesus, children are literally born out of Gehenna. You see it for yourself, yet you do not believe it.

Look here...

Psalms 139:15
"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth."

Were you folks taught that the 'Lowest Parts of the Earth' is Hell or perhaps Sheol?

So then why does the Word of God teach that babies come from there? You see it for yourself as plain as can be.

What about the Apostles' Creed?

"...descended into hell, rose again from the dead on the third day,"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed

What exactly is this so called 'Hell' that Jesus 'descended' into?

The phrase descendit ad inferos ('he descended into hell') is not found in the Nicene Creed. It echoes Ephesians 4:9, "κατέβη εἰς τὰ κατώτερα μέρη τῆς γῆς" ('he descended into the lower earthly regions').

OK, let us examine said verse...

Ephesians 4:9
"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

When did Jesus first descend? He first descended into the womb of Mary!

You all know this!

John 3:13
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Again, the 'Lower/Lowest Parts of the Earth' is a euphemism for the womb. Jesus *first* descended into Mary to incarnate.

Look again...

In the lowest parts of the earth.—This figurative allusion to the womb is intended no doubt to heighten the feeling of mystery attaching to birth.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/139-15.htm

These are Scholar's commentaries. Good luck arguing against them.

It's an interesting argument, and more compelling than your first two posts.

The Greeks DEFINITELY believed in re-incarnation, or trans-migration they called it.  Is the Hebrew Bible credulous of Greek thanatology?  That's a tough question.  A case for "YES" can definitely be made, but so can a case to the contrary.

That said... the idea of multiple fulfillments of prophesy is something with much support in the New Testament AND the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Have you ever looked at how that idea dovetails into the idea of multiple fulfillments?  It seems like there could be... overlap.

Quote from: Quantumbit on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 20:01:41This is interesting...

At first, it was typically used to indicate the lifespan of a single person...

If we looked at what happens to the Beast, we find that indeed he is reincarnated over and over, age after age, lifespan after lifespan.

It was there all along...

Revelation 17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

• The Beast 'was' = The Beast used to be alive.
• The Beast 'is not' = The Beast died.
• The Beast 'shall ascend' = The Beast will be REINCARNATED.

How much more obvious could God have made it for you? The phrase 'was, and is not, and yet is' is literally reincarnation!

I don't think there's much of Revelation that is 'obvious.'  Everything is a vision with an interpretation.  It can be hard to tell what's literal and what is a symbol.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Nov 10, 2024 - 21:39:40This was an interesting rabbit-hole.  Ultimately, I don't think the case for Molech being Hestia/Vesta is very good. 

Latin Vesta comes from Greek Hestia, sure.  But Molech appears to be an Ammonite god, with no similar god in Greek/Latin/Babylonian/ mythology.  A case could be made for the Canaanite goddess Zebub, but there's no grammatical similarity, gender is wrong... not a strong candidate.

The idea of Vesta/Hestia as a goddess of conception is also suspect, with both being eternal virgins.

Great comments. I appreciate you considering the information.

I believe that the Bible teaches that Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, the Lake of Fire, etc. are all part of a 'step by step' process that ultimately results in reincarnation back here again.

The entire concept must be rightly divided into distinct parts to really understand it. I have spent years doing just that. The information is just too vast to post it in a simple manner. Vital pieces of data will be missing. It is up to the Student to do their part.

I will expand a bit.

The Lake of Fire is more of a 'portal' back in time. Science would call it a 'wormhole'. It may even be comprised of antimatter which some believe goes back in time. Study the word 'backward' in the Bible...

2 Kings 20:10
"And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees."

The Unsaved are said to go backward.

The Lake of Fire is also where the Soul is 'destroyed'. In other words, it is where an individual's Genome Sequence is partly deleted, or completely deleted, depending on how 'carnal' it is.

I call it 'God Eugenics'. That is basically the message of Salvation. It is a Gene Editing operation. Graffed in and all that.

The Bible teaches that the Soul is a living organism's Genome Sequence. It is the 'Tables of the Heart'. It is the Word made flesh.

If we use simple exegesis, we may logically conclude that the Lake of Fire is just the 'fire' part of the equation that the children 'pass through' *before* reaching Moloch...

Leviticus 18:21
"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD."

Note the word 'Seed'. The Lake of Fire is what Seed 'passes through'. In other words, it is the stage where the Male Seed is travelling through the Uterus to find the Ovum.

The Male Seed is the 'Scapegoat' cast out of the Phallus and into the Wilderness of the Womb. See the goat in the Devil tarot? The Scapegoat is the Unsaved person who has their past life sins placed on them to repay said sins in the next life (reap what has been sown/Karma, etc.).

Moloch is the final destination. I would argue that Wikipedia and other sources simply do not have enough information to put the pieces together, that is why I use the Bible as the final say.

For example:

Amos 5:25-26
"Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves."

Scripture is associating the wanderings in the Wilderness to Moloch. Long story short, Moloch is a later evolution of the Golden Calf.

We see this again here...

Acts 7:40-43
"Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

Clearly the Golden Calf and Moloch are associated.

• Tabernacle = Ovum.
• Star = Child that is conceived.

That is what Scripture teaches. Most have no idea that the Tabernacles and Temples are scale models of a Eukaryotic Cell and Ovum. The Church has done a horrible job at keeping up with the latest discoveries.



Anyhow, the Golden Calf represents the 'Egyptian Woman', Hagar. Ultimately, Hagar is Earthly Jerusalem and the Womb of Mystery Babylon. We are all born under bondage through Hagar, i.e., corrupt Biology. Again, Salvation is a Genetics issue.

Outside the Bible, the Golden Calf is symbolic of Hathor, the Earth Mother and Uterus...



Thus, those thrown into 'Gehenna' or Lake of Fire will pass through it and end up conceived in the Earth Mother.

Whether Vesta was a virgin or Moloch was a male is a bit irrelevant to what the overall message of the Bible is teaching.

The pattern is clear once one sees the bigger picture. Even the word 'Pit' is a euphemism for the Womb. There is simply too much evidence to dismiss.

Sadly, Cognitive Dissonance is too tough for most to overcome. Most folks would rather 'rationalize away' the info using their pre-determined confirmation bias. That is of course their choice.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Nov 10, 2024 - 21:55:27The Greeks DEFINITELY believed in re-incarnation, or trans-migration they called it.  Is the Hebrew Bible credulous of Greek thanatology?  That's a tough question.  A case for "YES" can definitely be made, but so can a case to the contrary.

Even something as simple as the word 'Hell' can reveal much. I mean, just look at the basic definition...

"...religions with reincarnation usually depict a hell as an intermediary period between incarnations, as is the case in the Indian religions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

There it is as plain as can be. Hell = Reincarnation. It is not me saying it, it is the Scholars.

The problem is that the Church goes *against* the standard definition of Hell and tries to usurp and alter its meaning for their own wicked agenda of power and control. That is serious hubris right there.

If we go down another rabbit hole, we discover that Hell is a Goddess!

"Old Norse hel (which refers to both a location and goddess-like being in Norse mythology),"

If one researches even further, they will find that Hell is associated with the Womb of the Earth.

And what do we find in the Bible? Hell is a Woman...

Isaiah 5:14
"Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

'Her mouth' is euphemism for the Vulva. Same with 'Gates of Hell'. It is the entrance/exit of the Womb.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Nov 10, 2024 - 21:55:27That said... the idea of multiple fulfillments of prophesy is something with much support in the New Testament AND the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Have you ever looked at how that idea dovetails into the idea of multiple fulfillments?  It seems like there could be... overlap.

Yes. I believe multiple fulfillments of Prophecy is a major theme in the Bible and very important.

Pattern Recognition.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Nov 10, 2024 - 21:58:21I don't think there's much of Revelation that is 'obvious.'  Everything is a vision with an interpretation.  It can be hard to tell what's literal and what is a symbol.

This is why I use what I call 'The Kingdom of God Within' method of interpretation. This is per Biblical instruction.

We are instructed to first seek it out...

Matthew 6:33
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

Most Christians skip that extremely vital part, and as a consequence, they have no idea what they are looking at.

That is why I say it is obvious. Once a person uses Human Anatomy, Biology, Physiology, etc. to understand the symbology, the Book of Revelation becomes super easy to decipher.

Take the Throne Room for example. What is that all about? Easy. Just compare it to Human Anatomy...

• Throne = Heart
• Slain Lamb = Blood in the Heart/Soul/Nucleobase/Word of God
• Seven Spirits = Breath/Lungs
• Twenty-Four Elders = Ribs

Look what happens...


It is all symbolic of a bosom. Whose bosom? Abraham's Bosom of course, where the Redeemed are 'resting' until the Marriage Supper to Sarah the New Jerusalem.

Abraham's Bosom was not 'emptied out'. That is a lie. We can see it now.

The Souls are still there waiting...

Revelation 6:9
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

They are wondering how much longer they have to wait until they can be clothed with the Glorified Body...

Revelation 6:11
"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The Lamb leads them out like Seed going into the Womb. I.e., Abraham's Seed entering the Yoni Gates of Sarah's New Jerusalem Womb to partake of the Zygotes growing on the Tree of Life. Born Again. It is a New Covenant.


So many answers to so many questions are revealed by simply doing what we are commanded to do *first*.

Quote from: Quantumbit on Sun Nov 10, 2024 - 22:54:01Sadly, Cognitive Dissonance is too tough for most to overcome. Most folks would rather 'rationalize away' the info using their pre-determined confirmation bias. That is of course their choice.

That's one way to put it.  I generally try to consider all views, but I can't do it here.  The information doesn't fit within my hermeneutic of Scripture.  It's not congruent with my worldview, either.  I really don't like to mix science with religion, which I see as a matter of literature.  So, rather than focusing on that, perhaps there's something productive to add?

Quote from: Quantumbit on Sun Nov 10, 2024 - 22:54:01Acts 7:40-43
"Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

Clearly the Golden Calf and Moloch are associated.

I found the bolded bit very interesting.

Have you read about the ancient tabernacle that was exacavated in Israel at Timna?  It's Midianite in make... just like Moses wife.  It's dated to the 14th century BC... also close to when Moses lived.  And it was dedicated to the worhip of... Hathor.

https://private-tours-in-israel.com/temple-of-hathor-in-timna-park/
http://www.bibleorigins.net/TimnaTabernacle.html
https://image-database.nes.lsa.umich.edu/items/show/70

Also of note is the place.  Timna (Biblical Teman) is the site of an enormous copper mine and smeltery, in the south of (modern) Israel near the Red Sea.  It is the leading candidate for the place where the historical Israelites would have forged their brass altar and built the original tabernacle.  Oh, and there's this...

Habakkuk 3:3  God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Nov 11, 2024 - 11:59:34I really don't like to mix science with religion...

Bummer. That is mostly what I specialize in.

Ezekiel's vision, for example, is symbolic of Atoms, Particle Physics, Quantum Mechanics, etc. I am able to see light years ahead of most people because I understand what is being taught in the verses. I am not trying to brag; it is just that most people are like you and never even bother to explore these concepts. Much of it is middle or high school level stuff.

The simpler concepts however do lead to very advanced information that is quite astounding since we are taught that no one knew any of this way back then. If it was not God who encrypted this info, then who did? A very advanced A.I.?

I get the fact that I am just some 'random guy on the internet' and so even if I say 1+1=2, most will not believe it because it did not come from CNN or Dr. Foul Chi or whatever.

I will leave this video I made in case others are interested...


When comparing Science to the Bible, Christians have a bad habit of 'dumbing down' the sophisticated, cutting-edge, high-tech information provided. It is as if they believe God was either a moron or did not author/inspire the Bible. As a result, they not only fail miserably at making Science and Scripture align, but they also provide fodder for the critics.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Nov 11, 2024 - 11:59:34Have you read about the ancient tabernacle that was exacavated in Israel at Timna?

No, I have not. Your information is intriguing. It makes sense since the Tabernacles and Temples mimic the Ovum of the Earth Mother, i.e., Hagar/Hathor/Mystery Babylon/Forbidden Fruit, etc. We all come from that corrupt template. Being 'born of sin' is a Biological/Genetic issue. Everyone is affected. Even a Zygote.

The Temple of Ezekiel was supposed to be the replacement. The 'Glorified Ovum' if you will.

I see much evidence that Serabit El-Khadim may have been Mount Sinai. It features a Temple of Hathor...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serabit_el-Khadim

Because the site was often unoccupied for long periods of time, this Temple of Hathor would have made a perfect refuge, and Research and Development lab for Moses as he worked with God on the blueprints for a future Tabernacle.

Wikipedia was edited to take this part out...


Here is the older link...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Serabit_el-Khadim&oldid=932059630

Mount Sinai in the background...



You folks better start paying attention to this stuff. You never know when it will all vanish.

Moses climbed the Phallus to retrieve God's Seed. It was supposed to go to the Bride, Sarah and Israel. Instead, it went to Hathor, the 'Egyptian Woman'...


She gave birth to Ishmael. We are all symbolically born of Hagar and we are slaves to the Reincarnation Cycle...

Galatians 4:25
"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children."

Jesus is rescuing us from that fate. Understand? Purchased from HER. SHE drinks the Blood... the Precious Blood. Ransom paid. Do you get it yet? Blood Money.

Look...

She becomes the lioness goddess Sekhmet and massacres the rebellious humans, but Ra decides to prevent her from killing all humanity. He orders that beer be dyed red and poured out over the land. The Eye goddess drinks the beer, mistaking it for blood, and in her inebriated state reverts to being the benign and beautiful Hathor.

Drunken with the Blood. It is euphemism for something else.

Anyhow...

Moses went back up the Phallus again. The second set of God's Sperm (Abraham's Seed) was placed in the Tabernacle Ovum to be nourished for a time, times and dividing of times...


Protected from the face, and Seed, of the Serpent.

Your Harlot Church will never teach you any of this. Come out of Her.

Quote from: Quantumbit on Mon Nov 11, 2024 - 15:48:57Moses went back up the Phallus again. The second set of God's Sperm (Abraham's Seed) was placed in the Tabernacle Ovum to be nourished for a time, times and dividing of times...

The things we do for Love...

And here I thought Ken was off his rocker

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon Nov 11, 2024 - 16:02:55And here I thought Ken was off his rocker

 

Whatever you guys.

Enjoy your echo chamber.

I'm out. Maybe I will visit in the future. Who knows.

Later.