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Quote from: Amo on Fri Jan 30, 2026 - 09:27:29Examples of what is ignored please.

So much of the natural sciences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLh6xwVloyM

Another good one by Answers in Genesis Canada.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 31, 2026 - 01:12:24So much of the natural sciences.

Such as?

https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/science-methodology-christian-worldview/

Quoted article below from link above.

Science Fields and Methodology Came from a Christian Worldview

Is Christianity incompatible with real science? The development and history of science answer a resounding "no."

by Troy Lacey  on January 30, 2026
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If you look at any secular science book from the past few decades, you'll notice that there are no mentions of God or providence or even allusions to him. But this has not always been the case, and indeed, it used to be normative in science journals and letters from the scientists themselves. The prevailing evolutionary paradigm has tried to pit science versus religion as being, at best, two different realms whose studies do not overlap. At worst, it has denigrated religion (and especially Christianity) as being the opposite of science and labeled it superstition, magic, or a mental crutch. Of course, not only are both views presenting a false dichotomy, but they also ignore the development and history of science.

Did the Greeks Invent Science?

Now some may argue that the seeds of science began with the Greeks and that they certainly did not espouse a Christian worldview. This may be true, but one doesn't have to be a Christian to borrow from a biblical worldview. When the Apostle Paul was in Athens, he told his audience that even their statues and poets pointed to the God of Scripture (Acts 17:22–31). Without knowing it, they were vainly groping for God.

Greek philosophers and scientists relied on the uniformity of nature and the ability of the human mind to reason in order to make their observations and conduct experiments. Yet some (like the Epicureans) espoused evolutionary philosophies. Paul confronted them on their philosophical naturalism, and although his discourse recorded in Acts 17 was very brief, he went straight to the heart of the matter.

God was not some abstract entity, nor something made with human hands (or devised by human thoughts). God created everything, and this included the laws of nature. Paul was not just making a theological statement here; he was also making a scientific one. When Paul proclaimed, "For in him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28), he was including the concept that when we measure, observe, think, reason, and experiment, we are able to do so because God created us in his image (Genesis 1:27), has given us the ability to think and reason (Job 38:36), and upholds the universe (Colossians 1:16–17), allowing life on earth to proceed in an orderly way (Genesis 8:22).

Laws of Nature

Any scientist must (and automatically does) assume that the laws of nature will be the same today as they were yesterday. They will trust that experiments performed under identical conditions will produce repeatable results. But do they ever stop to wonder why these things are true? According to them, we live in a "big bang" universe, created by a singularity that rapidly expanded outward (or perhaps a big bounce universe that eternally contracts and expands) and then was dependent upon supernova after supernova to provide heavier elements just to synthesize the basic ingredients of planetary formation. In this cosmic evolutionary paradigm, why should they expect uniformity of nature?

Let's consider the "Goldilocks" nature of the earth and the impossibility of life spontaneously forming, let alone evolving into creatures of greater complexity. With all these "lucky fortunes" lining up, how can they presuppose anything other than random chance to be their mantra?

The Dumb Luck of Earth

In addition to the "Goldilocks" problem, they have to strain credulity even further and believe this chance universe definitely has and exhibits order and natural laws. And then on top of that, they have to believe that by some cosmic accident, humanity alone has been granted the ability to think, reason, question, and amass knowledge down through history—all of which informs him that man alone has been able to conclude that he arrived here on this earth by chance acting through time via mutation and natural selection and that there is no God.

Furthermore, the materialist/humanist believes that man alone can reason that there is no purpose for being on this orderly earth in a universe ruled by natural law (other than propagating his genetic line). The Apostle Paul, guided by the Holy Spirit, rightly spoke of this as "suppression of the truth" that God has manifested to them (Romans 1:18–19).

But this has not always been the case for scientists. Many of the pioneers of several scientific fields were Christians, and many of those were biblical creationists. They openly admitted that it was God who created the orderly universe and who gave them the reasoning skills they needed to accomplish or make the discoveries they did. Let's take a brief journey through the history of science over the past several hundred years and examine this more fully.

Modern Science Comes Out of a Christian Worldview—the Early Years

One of the men often credited with establishing the scientific method itself (boiled down to its essence—observe, question, hypothesize, experiment, confirm/reject hypothesis) was a creationist, Sir Francis Bacon (1561–1626). Ironically, it was another Bacon (Roger) who had 300 years earlier pushed for experimentation over argument alone as the basis for scientific progress. Roger Bacon (c. 1214–1292) was also a creationist.

Johannes Kepler, the astronomer who described planetary motions as ellipses and who in his study of optics developed eyeglasses for both nearsightedness and farsightedness,1 often described his ability and motivation for his scientific studies.

QuoteThose laws [of nature] are within the grasp of the human mind; God wanted us to recognize them by creating us after his own image so that we could share in his own thoughts.

It is a right, yes a duty, to search in cautious manner for the numbers, sizes, and weights, the norms for everything [God] has created. For He himself has let man take part in the knowledge of these things. . . . For these secrets are not of the kind whose research should be forbidden; rather they are set before our eyes like a mirror so that by examining them we observe to some extent the goodness and wisdom of the Creator.

I wanted to become a theologian. For a long time I was restless. Now, however, behold how through my effort God is being celebrated in astronomy.

A Few of the Creation Scientists in the Seventeenth and early Eighteenth Century

Several prominent late seventeenth and early eighteenth century scientists were staunch creationists who proclaimed in their writings that their Christian religion was not incompatible with science. Robert Boyle (1627–1691) was a chemist and physicist, most famous for his formulation of Boyle's Law (relationship between pressure and volume for gases). Boyle made several statements about how Christianity influenced his scientific endeavors and how the study of science made him glorify God for his creation.

QuoteWhen with bold telescopes I survey the old and newly discovered stars and planets, when with excellent microscopes I discern in otherwise invisible objects, the unimitable subtility of nature's curious workmanship; and when, in a word, by the help of anatomical knives, and the light of chemical furnaces, I study the book of nature . . . I find myself oftentimes reduced to exclaim with the Psalmist, How manifold are Thy works, O Lord! in wisdom hast Thou made them all [Psalm104:24]!

The vastness, beauty, orderliness, of the heavenly bodies, the excellent structure of animals and plants; and the other phenomena of nature justly induce an intelligent and unprejudiced observer to conclude a supremely powerful, just, and good author.

But neither the fundamental doctrine of Christianity nor that of the powers and effects of matter and motion seems to be more than epicycle . . . of the great and universal system of God's contrivances, and makes but a part of the more general theory of things, knowable by the light of nature, improved by the information of the scriptures so that both these doctrines . . . seem to be but members of the universal hypothesis, whose objects I conceive to be natural counsels, and works of god, so far as they are discoverable by us . . . in this life.

A contemporary of Boyle was the physicist, astronomer, and mathematician Sir Isaac Newton (1642–1727). Newton is most famous for formulating the laws of gravity, motion, and the invention of calculus. In perhaps his most famous written work Principia, Newton acknowledged God's central role in creation and how science is merely the search for the truth of God's handiwork.

QuoteThe most beautiful system of the Sun, Planets and Comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent being.

Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and everywhere, could produce no variety of things. All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing.

Thus, the diligent student of science, the earnest seeker of truth, led, as through the courts of a sacred Temple, wherein, at each step, new wonders meet the eye, till, as a crowning grace, they stand before a Holy of Holies, and learn that all science and all truth are one which hath its beginning and its end in the knowledge of Him whose glory the heavens declare, and whose handiwork the firmament showeth forth.

In the second edition of Principia (1713), Newton asked mathematician Roger Cotes to write the preface. Cotes, in the same vein as Newton, acknowledged:

QuoteWithout all doubt, this world, so diversified with that variety of forms and motions we find in it, could arise from nothing but the perfectly free will of God directing and presiding over all. From this fountain . . . the laws of Nature have flowed, in which there appear many traces indeed of the most wise contrivance, but not the least shadow of necessity. These, therefore, we must not seek from uncertain conjectures, but learn them from observations and experiments.

Several other notable scientists of the eighteenth century were creationists like the famous botanist, zoologist, and the founder of modern taxonomic classification, Carl Linnaeus (1707–1778), who was a contemporary of Newton. Born the same year, Leonhard Euler (1707–1783) was a mathematician (most famous for introducing several math symbols such as f(x) and pi (π), and he also wrote on hydrodynamics and astronomy.

A Few of the Creation Scientists in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Century

As you move from the eighteenth to the nineteenth century, several fields of science were developed or heavily influenced by Christian (and creationist) scientists. Two notable creation scientists and inventors were born in 1791 and contributed greatly to scientific advancement. Michael Faraday (1791–1867) was a chemist and a pioneer in the field of electricity and electromagnetism. Samuel Morse (1791–1872) helped improve the (nascent) photography field and is mostly known as the inventor of the telegraph.

Both of these men (Faraday and Morse) attributed their impetus and success to God. Faraday summed up their separate thoughts by acknowledging that it was God's natural law that allowed reason and scientific knowledge.

QuoteIf you teach scientific knowledge without honouring scientific knowledge as it is applied, you do more harm than good. I do think that the study of natural science is so glorious a school for the mind, that with the laws impressed on all these things by the Creator, and the wonderful unity and stability of matter, and the forces of matter, there cannot be a better school for the education of the mind.

Other great scientists of the nineteenth century included Joule (thermodynamics), Pasteur (microbiology/germ theory), Mendel (genetics), Lister (surgery/medical hygiene), and Maxwell (electromagnetic theory/physics). All of these scientists were Christians, and all were creationists. None were unable to "do science" because of their Christian faith. In fact in every case, each man remarked how his faith bolstered his scientific zeal. James Joule summed this up quite well in a speech written (but not delivered, due to health problems) for the British Association for the Advancement of Science:

QuoteAfter the knowledge of, and obedience to, the will of God, the next aim must be to know something of His attributes of wisdom, power, and goodness as evidenced by His handiwork. . . . It is evident that an acquaintance with natural laws means no less than an acquaintance with the mind of God therein expressed.

A Few of the Creation Scientists in the Twentieth and Twenty-First Century

Moving into the twentieth century, we continue to see several prominent creation scientists and inventors. John Ambrose Fleming (1849–1945) was a physicist most famous for working on the vacuum tube and radar (for the British military during WWII). Douglas Dewar (1875–1957) was a prominent ornithologist, and Charles Stine (1882–1954) was a chemist who was credited with creating a safer and more stable version of dynamite to be used in mining and was the vice president of DuPont who assembled the team of scientists who developed nylon. And Wernher von Braun (1912–1977) was mostly known for his rocket design contributions to the American space programs of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. All of these men were also creationists and, to some degree, wrote or advocated against Darwinian evolution.

Moving into the twenty-first century, creation scientists are still studying God's handiwork and making great contributions to science. Whether it is designing lifesaving diagnostic medical devices, like the MRI scanner by Dr. Raymond Damadian, or being responsible for designing mechanical parts for the European Space Agency or drive chains for bicycles that won six gold medals (for Great Britain in the 2016 summer Olympics) and set several world records, like Dr. Stuart Burgess, creationists are able to greatly contribute to science and technology despite being labeled as "unscientific" by some of their secular peers.

It is obvious just from this cursory glance at Christian and creation scientists of the past 400 years that none were impeded in their scientific accomplishments because of their faith. In fact, most are on record saying that their Christian faith is what motivated them to study the world (and universe) around them. There is no battle of faith versus science; there is only a battle over worldviews and presuppositions.

Is it more logical for someone to be motivated to study nature when they believe it came about through random chaotic processes or when they believe it came about through the purposeful design of the Creator God of the Bible? Christianity is a reasoned faith, not a blind one. The Bible itself testifies that God expects mankind to seek after knowledge and wisdom and to study his creation and to understand as much as he can about it. Let us end this article with these words of Scripture, given to us by the Holy Spirit.

When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet. (Psalm 8:3–6)

Great are the works of the Lord, studied by all who delight in them. (Psalm 111:2)

Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, to understand a proverb and a saying, the words of the wise and their riddles. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:5–7)

It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out. (Proverbs 25:2)

And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven. It is an unhappy business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with. (Ecclesiastes 1:13)

As I have said more than once here, even the phrase creation scientists is an oxymoron.  It is a term used by those who probably know little about either creation or science. Creation, God's creation ex nihilo, is not something that even fits within any field of science.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 31, 2026 - 16:15:29As I have said more than once here, even the phrase creation scientists is an oxymoron.  It is a term used by those who probably know little about either creation or science. Creation, God's creation ex nihilo, is not something that even fits within any field of science.

Who do you think created the so called "fields of science"? Fallible humanity did. Who are those declaring that science can only be in relation to what they define as natural fields, to tell others they cannot employ scientific methodology to investigations intending to prove that creation is the most logical conclusion, concerning the same evidence we can all examine and compose theories about? They are simply those with more hubris than their fellows. Are they not?

Who are you or anyone else to declare that those investigating evidence in order to form theories supporting atheism, are real scientists because what they are examining is defined as "natural" by you, while denying such investigations by those seeking to support Creationism cannot be real scientists for looking beyond what you define as "natural"?

The truth of the matter, is that we are the ones who live, breathe, and exist in an unnatural state of being. Preserved by God as separate from Him alone who created and preserves all things. And apparently all the rest of creation wherever and whatever that may be. Some of which we are privy to as described in the Holy Scriptures, most of which no doubt we have no clue concerning.

Dan 1:1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it. 2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god. 3 And the king spake unto Ashpenaz the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring certain of the children of Israel, and of the king's seed, and of the princes; 4 Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans. 5 And the king appointed them a daily provision of the king's meat, and of the wine which he drank: so nourishing them three years, that at the end thereof they might stand before the king. 6 Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: 7 Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego. 8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself. 9 Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs. 10 And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king. 11 Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, 12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink. 13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants. 14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days. 15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat. 16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse. 17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams. 18 Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar. 19 And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king. 20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm. 21 And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.

As my previous quoted article post pointed out, in agreement with the above testimony of Holy Scripture, those who have believed in young earth creation have and continue to be among the very best "scientists" earth has to offer. Being more firmly established in the reality that is God, unlimited by the laws of and or nature of this world itself. Nor limiting scientific investigation to that nature alone which God has presently confined us within. To the contrary, considering the supernatural aspects revealed in Holy Scripture in conjunction with that which we can observe, by the very faith Holy Scripture calls for from its adherents. Resulting therefore also in a superior form of far more inclusive scientific investigation and therefore theory than those stuck in the narrowly limited confines of their own perceptions of what is "natural". As described in Holy Scripture.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

What we see presently did not come about through progressive stages of deep time evolutions of birds, four footed beasts, or creeping things. These thoughts or imaginations do not originate in Holy Scripture anywhere at all but by interjection of ideas from within the minds of fallible men. Thoughts which are separate altogether from faith in the Divinely inspired word of God.

Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. 5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

science,
any system of knowledge that is concerned with the physical world and its phenomena and that entails unbiased observations and systematic experimentation. In general, a science involves a pursuit of knowledge covering general truths or the operations of fundamental laws.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Jan 31, 2026 - 16:15:29As I have said more than once here, even the phrase creation scientists is an oxymoron.  It is a term used by those who probably know little about either creation or science. Creation, God's creation ex nihilo, is not something that even fits within any field of science.

Yeah, the term "creation scientists" is a type of oxymoron.

But your view of what 'science' is, is still wrong, because how can anyone leave our Heavenly Father as The Creator out of the idea of science, since the word science is about knowing what is true??

There is TRUE science, which will always... agree with God's Word.

Then there is PSEUDO-science which is falsehood presented as true science, like Darwin's theory of the evolution of species.

Here is an example in God's Word that declares true science... and yet at the same time it goes beyond... the things of God's material creation:

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

Note especially that underlined-italics phrase. It reveals one of the basic laws of physics, that material matter cannot be created nor destroyed (by man that is). Material matter according to science can only change its state between a liquid, solid, vapor, or gas.

That also means, material matter did not create itself. And that is what that underlined phrase is especially declaring.

Yet that idea goes way beyond... man's simple scientific understanding of material matter. Modern science keeps trying to find the 'secret' to material matter's creation, as if its secret is contained in material particles, etc. Man's science keeps breaking the components of material matter down, wrongly thinking they will discover its secret some day. They won't.

That Hebrews 11:3 verse declares why modern science will never discover the creation secret of material matter. It is because they have yet to understand that material matter did not create itself, like that Hebrews 11:3 verse says. And modern science even agrees... that matter only changes its state, and cannot be created nor destroyed, EXCEPT... by GOD Himself.

So how does that work, that GOD can create or destroy material matter, but man cannot, and nor can material matter create or destroy itself?

In John 4:24, Apostle John said GOD is a Spirit.

That means, there is ANOTHER DIMENSION other than this earthly material matter universe that we live in. And that other DIMENSION OF EXISTENCE is made up of SPIRIT, and not material matter. That is the point of Hebrews 11:3 that requires FAITH in GOD as Creator in order to understand it.

GOD created this universe of material matter FROM... that DIMENSION OF SPIRIT where He dwells. That is what that Hebrews 11:3 verse is declaring that goes way beyond... men's application of the idea of science. Thus man's understanding of what science is... means it is only Science 102, with GOD as Creator as Science 101.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 00:46:23Yeah, the term "creation scientists" is a type of oxymoron.

But your view of what 'science' is, is still wrong, because how can anyone leave our Heavenly Father as The Creator out of the idea of science, since the word science is about knowing what is true??

You need to look up the definition and meaning of science. There are lots of things that are true that do not fall within the field of science.  Heaven and all things heavenly are not within the domain of science.  Miracles and all of God's supernatural acts of providence fall outside of science.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 00:46:23There is TRUE science, which will always... agree with God's Word.

Then there is PSEUDO-science which is falsehood presented as true science, like Darwin's theory of the evolution of species.

Here is an example in God's Word that declares true science... and yet at the same time it goes beyond... the things of God's material creation:

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

In God's word, we have this in Joshua 10:13:

And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

Now we know that if anything, it was the earth that stopped rotating and not the sun that actually stopped moving.  It is the motion of the earth, not the motion of the sun that produces the day and the night.  So does science agree with God's word there?  I guess it depends upon who is doing the interpretation of God's word.  That is true for Joshua 1o:13 and that is true for the Genesis account of creation in chapters 1-3.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 00:46:23Note especially that underlined-italics phrase. It reveals one of the basic laws of physics, that material matter cannot be created nor destroyed (by man that is). Material matter according to science can only change its state between a liquid, solid, vapor, or gas.

It would seem that you, like Amo, are not really up on your science.  Science makes no such claim as you have made there about the unchangeability of matter.  In fact matter can be transformed into energy and vice versa.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 00:46:23That also means, material matter did not create itself. And that is what that underlined phrase is especially declaring.

Yet that idea goes way beyond... man's simple scientific understanding of material matter. Modern science keeps trying to find the 'secret' to material matter's creation, as if its secret is contained in material particles, etc. Man's science keeps breaking the components of material matter down, wrongly thinking they will discover its secret some day. They won't.

That Hebrews 11:3 verse declares why modern science will never discover the creation secret of material matter. It is because they have yet to understand that material matter did not create itself, like that Hebrews 11:3 verse says. And modern science even agrees... that matter only changes its state, and cannot be created nor destroyed, EXCEPT... by GOD Himself.

So how does that work, that GOD can create or destroy material matter, but man cannot, and nor can material matter create or destroy itself?

We know where matter comes from. It is being produced even now within the stars. For example, Hydrogen is being turned into Helium in our sun right now.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 00:46:23In John 4:24, Apostle John said GOD is a Spirit.

That means, there is ANOTHER DIMENSION other than this earthly material matter universe that we live in. And that other DIMENSION OF EXISTENCE is made up of SPIRIT, and not material matter. That is the point of Hebrews 11:3 that requires FAITH in GOD as Creator in order to understand it.

GOD created this universe of material matter FROM... that DIMENSION OF SPIRIT where He dwells. That is what that Hebrews 11:3 verse is declaring that goes way beyond... men's application of the idea of science. Thus man's understanding of what science is... means it is only Science 102, with GOD as Creator as Science 101.

It is certainly true that the entire realm of God, Spirit, the heavenly is quite beyond this earthly realm. As such it is completely outside the reaches of science.  Science can say nothing about the Spirit realm. Science can neither affirm nor deny anything concerning the Spirit or spirit.

Creation Science is an oxymoron.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 04:04:02You need to look up the definition and meaning of science. There are lots of things that are true that do not fall within the field of science.  Heaven and all things heavenly are not within the domain of science.  Miracles and all of God's supernatural acts of providence fall outside of science.

No, I don't need to look up the definition of that word science. It is simple, as it is about pursuing knowledge of what is true.

QuoteIn God's word, we have this in Joshua 10:13:

And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

Now we know that if anything, it was the earth that stopped rotating and not the sun that actually stopped moving.  It is the motion of the earth, not the motion of the sun that produces the day and the night.  So does science agree with God's word there?  I guess it depends upon who is doing the interpretation of God's word.  That is true for Joshua 1o:13 and that is true for the Genesis account of creation in chapters 1-3.

Irrelevant, since God had no requirement to explain how... He did that to curious folk like yourself. Just because you may not grasp how God did that, or even think you know how, is irrelevant to the fact that God was ABLE to do that, but man is not able.

QuoteIt would seem that you, like Amo, are not really up on your science.

Straw Man argument, since you don't know me, and cannot know what level of scientific education I have had. Furthermore, the Hebrew 11:3 verse GOES BEYOND YOUR ATTEMPT HERE TO FOCUS ON MEN'S THINKING ABOUT THE WORD SCIENCE.
And that actually reveals that you still have not understood what this material world is actually about.

QuoteScience makes no such claim as you have made there about the unchangeability of matter.  In fact matter can be transformed into energy and vice versa.

That's another FALSE ARGUMENT by you. It is you... that needs to look up more about these matters of science, like the LAW OF THE CONSERVATION OF MATTER, which is a law in physics that says material matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only changes its state. That was scientifically proven many, many years ago.

QuoteWe know where matter comes from. It is being produced even now within the stars. For example, Hydrogen is being turned into Helium in our sun right now.

Now you are really... making me laugh at your fibs, with your trying to fool others into thinking you know what you're talking about, when you do not. FYI - stars are made up of MATERIAL MATTER. So is hydrogen, helium, and any other element of matter on the periodic table, to include any new material discovered that science wants to hap-hazardly slap one of their names upon. And didn't you know the sun also is made up of material matter, otherwise why would scientist put a time limit on the sun's burning out at some future date?

QuoteIt is certainly true that the entire realm of God, Spirit, the heavenly is quite beyond this earthly realm. As such it is completely outside the reaches of science.  Science can say nothing about the Spirit realm. Science can neither affirm nor deny anything concerning the Spirit or spirit.

That's right, but science still has no way to affirm that is true. Science has to have 'faith'... that is true about Spirit. That's why atheist philosophy is a joke, because it has to limit itself with only the things of this material world.

And the bigger issue, which that Hebrews 11:3 verse is proclaiming, is the fact... that ANOTHER DIMENSION OF EXISTENCE exists other than the material world of matter. And that other dimension is one of Spirit, not material matter.

QuoteCreation Science is an oxymoron.

Not so, because that would naturally include... just the act of GOD being The Creator. It attacks not just man's ideas about God's creation, but also the fact that GOD is Who created this earth and all things in it.

So the arguments 'among' Christian brethren about WHEN and HOW God created this earth, is a not about terms like 'creation science'. But is GOD's creation about the idea of SCIENCE? YES! most definitely. Because again, that word science means the pursuit of knowledge of what is true (the methods used to achieve that, like Francis Bacon's scientific method, is a secondary subject or tool involving that pursuit). For example...

The New Earth Creationist (NEC) believe this earth is only around 6,000 years old. That's an old tradition among Christianity and cannot be backed up in God's written Word.

Then there's the Old Earth Creationist, (which I believe), which declares The Bible does... document in Genesis 1 and elsewhere, which agrees with the fossil record that science proclaims is very, very ancient. Did you know in the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial in Dayton, Tennessee, the preacher that was against the teaching of evolution in the public schools believed in an Old Creation? He claimed he didn't know how old the creation is. We don't know either how old God's creation really is, but His Word does reveal steps that He used to form today's present 2nd world earth age. And those ideas written in His Word involve true science, just scientific events that today's scientific community has yet to discover.

For example - in Genesis 1:6-9, God showed that He formed this present world's sky atmosphere around the earth by taking waters that were overspread upon the earth, and moving them up above the earth. Today's scientific community doesn't know how He did that, so they like to try and hide their ignorance by making silly statements like that is impossible, so it must just be an allegory that means something else. That's how modern atheistic materialist science treats anything else written in God's Word that is out of character from their materialistic theories, which is just a show of their ignorance and denial of GOD's existence. So no wonder they also, like you, would deny the profound idea that is contained in that Hebrews 11:3 verse.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 11:37:39No, I don't need to look up the definition of that word science. It is simple, as it is about pursuing knowledge of what is true.

you really should look it up.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 11:37:39Straw Man argument, since you don't know me, and cannot know what level of scientific education I have had. Furthermore, the Hebrew 11:3 verse GOES BEYOND YOUR ATTEMPT HERE TO FOCUS ON MEN'S THINKING ABOUT THE WORD SCIENCE.
And that actually reveals that you still have not understood what this material world is actually about.

You are showing us with your reply here how bad your scientific education has been.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 11:37:39That's another FALSE ARGUMENT by you. It is you... that needs to look up more about these matters of science, like the LAW OF THE CONSERVATION OF MATTER, which is a law in physics that says material matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only changes its state. That was scientifically proven many, many years ago.

Have you ever read about Einstein's equation, E=Mc²?

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 11:37:39Now you are really... making me laugh at your fibs, with your trying to fool others into thinking you know what you're talking about, when you do not. FYI - stars are made up of MATERIAL MATTER. So is hydrogen, helium, and any other element of matter on the periodic table, to include any new material discovered that science wants to hap-hazardly slap one of their names upon. And didn't you know the sun also is made up of material matter, otherwise why would scientist put a time limit on the sun's burning out at some future date?

Have you ever heard about nuclear fusion?  Try this one

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Nuclear_fusion_in_the_Sun

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 15:56:34you really should look it up.

I already explained to you, but you reject it in favor of some fleshy theory, God knows what.

QuoteYou are showing us with your reply here how bad your scientific education has been.
Have you ever read about Einstein's equation, E=Mc²?
Have you ever heard about nuclear fusion?

Now you want to get into debates LEAVING THE SUBJECT OF THAT HEBREWS 11:3 SCRIPTURE?? What does that reveal to others here about yourself? For me, it reveals you are not really interested... in understanding that Hebrews 11:3 Scripture. It must be too PROFOUND for your fleshy ears, and that's probably your problem, you haven't been given eyes to see, and ears to hear. What might be holding your understanding up? Likely your fleshy carnal materialist thinking.

BRETHREN IN CHRIST JESUS:

The main reason why the Hebrews 11:3 verse is so PROFOUND is because it proves GOD's existence. It is written on the order of the Romans 1:18-20 verses...

Rom 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
KJV

God's existence is proven by His creation of things that are made, so that the NON-BELIEVER is without excuse.

So when Hebrews 11:3 says that by FAITH we understood that by The Word of God the worlds were made, because the things that are seen were not made by things that do appear. Meaning, matter did NOT create itself.

And man's science called physics confirms that, because their Law of the Conservation of Matter confirms that material matter can neither be created, nor destroyed. And if anyone... goes against that proven law of physics, it means they don't really know what real science is about, but are just making things up.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 22:27:52I already explained to you, but you reject it in favor of some fleshy theory, God knows what.

Now you want to get into debates LEAVING THE SUBJECT OF THAT HEBREWS 11:3 SCRIPTURE?? What does that reveal to others here about yourself? For me, it reveals you are not really interested... in understanding that Hebrews 11:3 Scripture. It must be too PROFOUND for your fleshy ears, and that's probably your problem, you haven't been given eyes to see, and ears to hear. What might be holding your understanding up? Likely your fleshy carnal materialist thinking.

Do you have even the slightest notion of what Hebrews 11:3 actually says.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with what science is or isn't.  And that of course is because you have such poor understanding of what science is.  But even worse it says that you impose your ignorance of science upon your interpretation of scripture.  And that is in contrast to what Hebrews 11:3 says, which is that there is only by faith that we can know that God created ex nihilo.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 22:27:52I already explained to you, but you reject it in favor of some fleshy theory, God knows what.

Now you want to get into debates LEAVING THE SUBJECT OF THAT HEBREWS 11:3 SCRIPTURE?? What does that reveal to others here about yourself? For me, it reveals you are not really interested... in understanding that Hebrews 11:3 Scripture. It must be too PROFOUND for your fleshy ears, and that's probably your problem, you haven't been given eyes to see, and ears to hear. What might be holding your understanding up? Likely your fleshy carnal materialist thinking.

So you know nothing about either E=Mc² or nuclear fusion. I guess I might have expected that.

Quote from: dpr on Wed Feb 04, 2026 - 22:37:55
BRETHREN IN CHRIST JESUS:

The main reason why the Hebrews 11:3 verse is so PROFOUND is because it proves GOD's existence. It is written on the order of the Romans 1:18-20 verses...

Rom 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
KJV

God's existence is proven by His creation of things that are made, so that the NON-BELIEVER is without excuse.

Wrong: The non-believer still will not believe based on this
"By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

The non-believer has no faith and nothing here would indicate they should. Simply telling a non-believer it is so with no tangiable proof is like trying to tell someone how Jesus incarnate was conceoived without sperm.

So when Hebrew 11:3 says that by FAITH we understood that by The Word of God the worlds were made, because the things that are seen were not made by things that do appear. Meaning, matter did NOT create itself.

And man's science called physics confirms that, because their Law of the Conservation of Matter confirms that material matter can neither be created, nor destroyed. And if anyone... goes against that proven law of physics, it means they don't really know what real science is about, but are just making things up.

You do not have to love science to see and understand that it was based on the rules of science that creation came to be and works.
But the fact is that with out God there would be no science to explore.... that does not prove there is God, and if I were you I would be trying to find a more exactly way to do so then to use a phrase from Heb 11:3 that says nothing about God it just says faith.

Are you familiar withGeorges Lemaître Belgian scientist and priest (1894-1966)
Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître was a Belgian Catholic priest, theoretical physicist, and mathematician who made major contributions to cosmology and astrophysics. He was the first to argue that the recession of galaxies is evidence of an expanding universe and to connect the observational Hubble–Lemaître law with the solution to the Einstein field equations in the general theory of relativity for a homogenous and isotropic universe 

Georges Lemaître is best known for proposing the Big Bang theory, which describes the universe's expansion from an initial point, often referred to as the "primeval atom." His work laid the foundation for modern cosmology and our understanding of the universe's origins.

What you may not know is Georges Lemaître preferred to keep his identity as a priest separate from his scientific work to maintain the integrity of his research, believing that faith and science should not interfere with each other. He was upset when Pope Pius XII publicly endorsed his Big Bang theory, as he felt it conflated scientific hypotheses with religious doctrine, which could undermine the scientific process.

I could go on but you obviously feel he was correct in not blurring the scientific with the theological. I say you are wrong for just imagine how many more souls could be won if science had the backbone to say look how great God really is that He was able to make this work just by speaking it into existence.




[/quote]

Quote from: Rella on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 08:48:31....

You are assuming too many things about me.

I am not against TRUE SCIENCE, because like I had said before, if you would pay attention to what I wrote, I said God's Word will ALWAYS AGREE with TRUE SCIENCE. And I made a distinction between TRUE SCIENCE and man's PSEUDO-SCIENCE. In case you do not know, the word 'pseudo' is Greek for the word false.

And the fact that God's material creation exists IS... proof, like Romans 1 says, even for the non-believer, it's just that the non-believer REFUSES to admit it is proof.

So going off on tangents with men who made scientific discoveries DISPROVES NOTHING concerning what God's Word states there in Romans 1 and Hebrews 11:3. Instead, if what they promote is TRUE SCIENCE, then it will always agree with God's creation.

And since you do not seem to understand these things, it also means you are likely not aware of what this battle is about between God's Word and man's science. The MATERIALISTS who do NOT accept GOD'S WORD as having scientific authority in it, is what the Non-believer is trying to do in order to PROMOTE their ATHEIST THEORIES.

They will even go so far as to claim that The Bible is just a book of poetry or philosophy, and work of man's literature.

Do those have FAITH? NO, they do not, but only LIE against God's Word. And their lack of FAITH is about their REJECTION of The Word of God, not by any proof through their understanding of science, but by their FALSE FAITH IN SOMETHING ELSE.

So this issue has nothing to do with those in the Church that made scientific discoveries, and they still had FAITH in what God's Word teaches. Arguments like against those are just straw man arguments by materialists.

Quote from: dpr on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 11:27:08You are assuming too many things about me.

I don't think so.

Quote from: dpr on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 11:27:08I am not against TRUE SCIENCE, because like I had said before, if you would pay attention to what I wrote, I said God's Word will ALWAYS AGREE with TRUE SCIENCE. And I made a distinction between TRUE SCIENCE and man's PSEUDO-SCIENCE. In case you do not know, the word 'pseudo' is Greek for the word false.

Given that God was the creator/inventor of science, one would hope that science would always agree with God's recorded word. The real issue here is that science does always agree with God's record word; but, some scientists do not. However, since not even theologists always agrees with God's written word, it is not likely that scientists would always agree.

The problem here is that you are not always in agreement with God's written word.  Most likely what you are calling pseudoscience is simply your misunderstanding of God's word.

Quote from: dpr on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 11:27:08And the fact that God's material creation exists IS... proof, like Romans 1 says, even for the non-believer, it's just that the non-believer REFUSES to admit it is proof.

No it is not proof.  It that were indeed proof then there would be no need for the faith that Hebrews 11:3 calls for. The prime requisite is not proof; rather the prime requisite is faith.

Quote from: dpr on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 11:27:08So going off on tangents with men who made scientific discoveries DISPROVES NOTHING concerning what God's Word states there in Romans 1 and Hebrews 11:3. Instead, if what they promote is TRUE SCIENCE, then it will always agree with God's creation.

That is true that science must always agree with God's revelation in His creation, but it is not true that science must always agree with your interpretation of God's revelation.  And given your view of science, I think the disparity between your view of science and God's revelation in His creation is really quite great.

Quote from: dpr on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 11:27:08And since you do not seem to understand these things, it also means you are likely not aware of what this battle is about between God's Word and man's science.

I think more often than not your battle is between your [false] interpretation of God's revelation and what your lack of knowledge of real science. That was precisely the problem between the Church and so many like Galileo Galilei. And it continues to this very day.

Science discovered by a non-believer is not automatically wrong.

And finally, it was not my intention to step between you and Rella, but I felt the need to respond to what you posted.

Quote from: dpr on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 11:27:08You are assuming too many things about me.

I am not against TRUE SCIENCE, because like I had said before, if you would pay attention to what I wrote, I said God's Word will ALWAYS AGREE with TRUE SCIENCE. And I made a distinction between TRUE SCIENCE and man's PSEUDO-SCIENCE. In case you do not know, the word 'pseudo' is Greek for the word false.

And the fact that God's material creation exists IS... proof, like Romans 1 says, even for the non-believer, it's just that the non-believer REFUSES to admit it is proof.

So going off on tangents with men who made scientific discoveries DISPROVES NOTHING concerning what God's Word states there in Romans 1 and Hebrews 11:3. Instead, if what they promote is TRUE SCIENCE, then it will always agree with God's creation.

And since you do not seem to understand these things, it also means you are likely not aware of what this battle is about between God's Word and man's science. The MATERIALISTS who do NOT accept GOD'S WORD as having scientific authority in it, is what the Non-believer is trying to do in order to PROMOTE their ATHEIST THEORIES.

They will even go so far as to claim that The Bible is just a book of poetry or philosophy, and work of man's literature.

Do those have FAITH? NO, they do not, but only LIE against God's Word. And their lack of FAITH is about their REJECTION of The Word of God, not by any proof through their understanding of science, but by their FALSE FAITH IN SOMETHING ELSE.

So this issue has nothing to do with those in the Church that made scientific discoveries, and they still had FAITH in what God's Word teaches. Arguments like against those are just straw man arguments by materialists.

Whatever....

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 14:36:50I don't think so.
Given that God was the creator/inventor of science, one would hope that science would always agree with God's recorded word. The real issue here is that science does always agree with God's record word; but, some scientists do not. However, since not even theologists always agrees with God's written word, it is not likely that scientists would always agree.

Nah... there is such as thing as FALSE SCIENCE. It's stupid to try and claim just stating the word 'science' means it's always about God's Truth. That's silly. But if one puts the word 'true' in front of it, then that is the fact, God's Word will always agree with TRUE SCIENCE. So your attempt to create a new philosophical word play on the word science just does not... work.

QuoteThe problem here is that you are not always in agreement with God's written word.  Most likely what you are calling pseudoscience is simply your misunderstanding of God's word.

The term PSEUDO-SCIENCE simply means FALSE SCIENCE. How thick can one be?

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Feb 05, 2026 - 14:36:50....
No it is not proof.  It that were indeed proof then there would be no need for the faith that Hebrews 11:3 calls for. The prime requisite is not proof; rather the prime requisite is faith.

Romans 1 and Hebrews 11:3 certainly IS... proof. You simply haven't understood how that is.

The FAITH component is involving the INVISIBLE, what we do not see. Through FAITH, we understand the worlds were framed by The Word of God. That is about having FAITH that GOD created the worlds by The Word of God. One MUST... take that idea on FAITH. That because we were not there to witness and 'see' it.

But the RESULT of that ACT by God, is revealed by the VISIBLE things that we CAN see. That is how the following Hebrews 11:3 verse is meant.

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

Quote from: dpr on Fri Feb 06, 2026 - 20:41:50Romans 1 and Hebrews 11:3 certainly IS... proof. You simply haven't understood how that is.

The FAITH component is involving the INVISIBLE, what we do not see. Through FAITH, we understand the worlds were framed by The Word of God. That is about having FAITH that GOD created the worlds by The Word of God. One MUST... take that idea on FAITH. That because we were not there to witness and 'see' it.

But the RESULT of that ACT by God, is revealed by the VISIBLE things that we CAN see. That is how the following Hebrews 11:3 verse is meant.

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

I think your understanding about proof and about faith is a bit weak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Hq7qRZhBg

Good young universe video.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Feb 07, 2026 - 07:35:22I think your understanding about proof and about faith is a bit weak.

You would have to first understand how the Faith Hebrews 11:3 mentions is about BELIEVING that by God's Word He created the worlds.

Evidently, you don't understand that Hebrews 11:3 verse yet, but are trying to apply its speaking of Faith being about the cross, when that is different, and came later at Jesus' 1st coming to die on the cross for the remission of the sins of those who would believe.

Quote from: dpr on Sun Feb 08, 2026 - 16:42:53You would have to first understand how the Faith Hebrews 11:3 mentions is about BELIEVING that by God's Word He created the worlds.

I believe What Hebrews 11:3 says. I have no problem with that at all.  I like what Albert Barnes has to say about it.  He says,

The first instance of the strength of faith which the apostle refers to is that by which we give credence to the declarations in the Scriptures about the work of creation; Gen_1:1. This is selected first, evidently because it is the first thing that occurs in the Bible, or is the first thing there narrated in relation to which there is the exercise of faith. He points to no particular instance in which this faith was exercised - for none is especially mentioned - but refers to it as an illustration of the nature of faith which every one might observe in himself. The "faith" here exercised is confidence in the truth of the divine declarations in regard to the creation. The meaning is, that our knowledge on this subject is a mere matter of faith in the divine testimony. It is not that we could "reason" this out, and demonstrate that the worlds were thus made; it is not that profane history goes back to that period and informs us of it; it is simply that God has told us so in his word. The "strength" of the faith in this case is measured:
    (1)    By the fact that it is mere faith - that there is nothing else on which to rely in the case, and,
    (2)    By the greatness of the truth believed.

After all the acts of faith which have ever been exercised in this world, perhaps there is none which is really more strong, or which requires higher confidence in God, than the declaration that this vast universe has been brought into existence by a word!


What you have to understand is the reason faith is required is because there is no proof anywhere that God created the universe.  God, being God, could easily have provided proof.  He did not.  Instead, He provided us with all the information and data in the creation itself that is needed for us to believe, to have faith, that He is the creator (Rom 1:18-20).  Nothing more than the creation itself is needed to know that there is a God and God is the creator of this universe.

We could spend a great deal of time and energy discussing why God didn't provide us with absolute proof and instead provided only that needed by us to believe in Him as the creator of this universe, but that is for another topic.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Feb 07, 2026 - 12:16:52https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8Hq7qRZhBg

Good young universe video.

And I could post some "good videos" from the Flat Earth Society.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Feb 09, 2026 - 05:02:28I believe What Hebrews 11:3 says. I have no problem with that at all.  I like what Albert Barnes has to say about it.  He says,

The first instance of the strength of faith which the apostle refers to is that by which we give credence to the declarations in the Scriptures about the work of creation; Gen_1:1. This is selected first, evidently because it is the first thing that occurs in the Bible, or is the first thing there narrated in relation to which there is the exercise of faith.
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What you should have done is actually listened... to what Barnes said at the first there and the first Faith subject in God's Word being about believing God as The Creator.

Quote from: dpr on Mon Feb 09, 2026 - 05:47:59What you should have done is actually listened... to what Barnes said at the first there and the first Faith subject in God's Word being about believing God as The Creator.

I did.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Feb 09, 2026 - 05:11:52And I could post some "good videos" from the Flat Earth Society.

Why not? Flat earth is no more preposterous than the theory of deep time slowly developing evolution.

Quote from: Amo on Mon Feb 09, 2026 - 09:30:02Why not? Flat earth is no more preposterous than the theory of deep time slowly developing evolution.

Believing in a flat earth is about the same as believing in a 6000 year-old earth.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Feb 09, 2026 - 11:30:51Believing in a flat earth is about the same as believing in a 6000 year-old earth.

Now that we got mere accusations out of the way. Here is another good one regarding evolution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDMKMByIJ9Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAPhBt8VJCM

More in depth examination of problems with evolutionary views based upon certain presumptions which now appear to have been wrong from the get go. Having been believed and built upon for a great many years now. As usual, things are far more complex than once suspected.

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Feb 09, 2026 - 06:55:39I did.

Pull my other leg and it plays Jingle Bells.

Quote from: dpr on Tue Feb 10, 2026 - 22:49:17Pull my other leg and it plays Jingle Bells.

I guess your view on creation isn't the only thing that is weird about you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnaGZVu6DrM

Massive dinosaur fossil graveyards and geography obvious evidence of catastrophism, over and above deep time slow processes of layering and fossilized creature deposits. Also obviously distributed by huge volumes of water redistribution on a global scale we have never witnessed, but which event has been recorded for us in the Holy Scriptures.