Christian Forums

Quote from: Reformer on Mon Mar 16, 2026 - 21:14:17

God's Israel Today
[Is National Israel God's chosen & Holy Nation?]
[Part 3 Finale]

Here Is Where I'm Coming From

My objective is to convey from the Scriptures that current Israel in the Middle East is not God's community of the redeemed, the "one body of believers," as noted by Paul in Ephesians 4:4.—Buff.

_______

At the beginning of this final current Essay on Israel, please be patient when I say the State of former Israel as a Nation was demolished when God used the Roman Army in A. D. 67-70 to remove her from the map, as alluded to in the Scriptures and in History. My viewpoint of National Israel in the Middle East is that she is not a copy of former Israel. As a Nation, however, she has every right to defend herself from her enemies.

At this point, let me introduce part of the biblical testimony relative to the destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple in 67-70 A. D.

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who have nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against the people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24).

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in the house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who have nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be" (Matt. 24:15-21).

Please note there was a universal massacre when the Roman Army overran Jerusalem—1,100,000 Jews perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery. So much blood was spilled that it flowed down the sewers like water. As noted above, this historical and ghastly bit of history was predicted in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, after which former Israel no longer prevailed, and new and current Israel, the redeemed community, superseded her.

About 2,000 year ago, a Jewish Historian by the name of Josephus witnessed and recorded the Roman/Jewish War. The major part of the battle occurred in and around Jerusalem. The account by Josephus is almost an echo of the predictions of Jesus, as recorded in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Years ago, I visited our local Library. I was looking for a copy of Josephus' history of the War. I found one! I researched portions of his large book consisting of 838 pages. To make my findings short, his report on the Roman/Jewish War echoed exactly the predictions of Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

It is difficult for me to understand how others can struggle with these words and discern them to go beyond A.D. 67-70, unless they have a doctrinal agenda to sustain and support. History testifies, and the Scriptures confirm, that old Jerusalem and former Israel were ravaged in A. D. 67-70 by the Roman Army and current Israel, the redeemed community or grace era, was formally established in about A. D. 33, as verified in Acts, chapters 1 and 2.

Question

Why did God allow the Roman Army to demolish former Israel? Because of her chronic rebelliousness! Biblical and Secular history testify that because of former Israel's rebelliousness the Lord used the Roman Army in A. D. 67-70 to remove her Temple, her sacrifices, her rituals, her ceremonies, her feast days, her form of religious and political government, her Holy City Jerusalem, her dominion, her kingdom, and everything else in between.

The Lord, after much patience and longsuffering with Israel, nullified what He had promised her and finally divorced her when she, after a long period of waywardness, rebelliousness, and spiritual adultery turned her back upon Him and rejected Him as King. May God's new Israel, the redeemed community or ekklesia of the saved, never become rebellious and wayward. She will, however, always need an element of reformation within her ranks.

I would offer the three words Israel ,Christian and Jew must be defined using sola scriptural as the fact checker law   

Jacob meaning the deceivers is used to represent divorced the bride. The new born again name changed to Israel .. later to identify the bride as the bride of all the nations of the world In Isaiah 62--  Christ promised to rename his bride which he did in Acts.  Christian--- literally residents of the heavenly city name after the cities founder and husband Christ ..a more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations of the world

Not all that say they are of born again Israel born are Born again Jews -- some remained under the spirit of  Jacob divorced Israel .The same with the word Jew a true born again Jew is not identified by that in which the eyes see the dying temporal but is a born again  Jew not seen revealed by Christ's faith.  The same with the word Christian not all that name the name are.

That battle could have been flesh and blood against flesh and blood Satan casting out Satan -----today be careful where you go .those who follow the false apostle-- false prophet Mohammed  think murdering Christian satfies the wage of their sin.

The father of lies a murderer from the beginning (Abel) hates all humans-- Kill them all off with their head  (Christ) Allah --Allah—Allah --------  Baloney—baloney-- baloney   

Quote from: Reformer on Mon Mar 16, 2026 - 21:14:17

God's Israel Today
[Is National Israel God's chosen & Holy Nation?]
[Part 3 Finale]

Here Is Where I'm Coming From

My objective is to convey from the Scriptures that current Israel in the Middle East is not God's community of the redeemed, the "one body of believers," as noted by Paul in Ephesians 4:4.—Buff.

_______

At the beginning of this final current Essay on Israel, please be patient when I say the State of former Israel as a Nation was demolished when God used the Roman Army in A. D. 67-70 to remove her from the map, as alluded to in the Scriptures and in History. My viewpoint of National Israel in the Middle East is that she is not a copy of former Israel. As a Nation, however, she has every right to defend herself from her enemies.

At this point, let me introduce part of the biblical testimony relative to the destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple in 67-70 A. D.

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who have nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against the people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24).

"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in the house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who have nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be" (Matt. 24:15-21).

Please note there was a universal massacre when the Roman Army overran Jerusalem—1,100,000 Jews perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery. So much blood was spilled that it flowed down the sewers like water. As noted above, this historical and ghastly bit of history was predicted in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, after which former Israel no longer prevailed, and new and current Israel, the redeemed community, superseded her.

About 2,000 year ago, a Jewish Historian by the name of Josephus witnessed and recorded the Roman/Jewish War. The major part of the battle occurred in and around Jerusalem. The account by Josephus is almost an echo of the predictions of Jesus, as recorded in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Years ago, I visited our local Library. I was looking for a copy of Josephus' history of the War. I found one! I researched portions of his large book consisting of 838 pages. To make my findings short, his report on the Roman/Jewish War echoed exactly the predictions of Jesus in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

It is difficult for me to understand how others can struggle with these words and discern them to go beyond A.D. 67-70, unless they have a doctrinal agenda to sustain and support. History testifies, and the Scriptures confirm, that old Jerusalem and former Israel were ravaged in A. D. 67-70 by the Roman Army and current Israel, the redeemed community or grace era, was formally established in about A. D. 33, as verified in Acts, chapters 1 and 2.

Question

Why did God allow the Roman Army to demolish former Israel? Because of her chronic rebelliousness! Biblical and Secular history testify that because of former Israel's rebelliousness the Lord used the Roman Army in A. D. 67-70 to remove her Temple, her sacrifices, her rituals, her ceremonies, her feast days, her form of religious and political government, her Holy City Jerusalem, her dominion, her kingdom, and everything else in between.

The Lord, after much patience and longsuffering with Israel, nullified what He had promised her and finally divorced her when she, after a long period of waywardness, rebelliousness, and spiritual adultery turned her back upon Him and rejected Him as King. May God's new Israel, the redeemed community or ekklesia of the saved, never become rebellious and wayward. She will, however, always need an element of reformation within her ranks.

I have become convinced somewhat recently that the "Judaism" we have known for the last two millennia is actually the national religion of the Edomites.  And the historical "Jews" as well, seem to be mostly Edomites.

Cousins... of the stock of Abraham... but not the elect.

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Mar 19, 2026 - 12:38:14

Wycliffes, I hear you - yours is a new thought to me. Enlarge, if you wish. Thanks.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

In the 2nd century BC, John Hyrcanus was both king and high priest in Judah.  John forcibly converted the Edomites to the Jewish religion, executing those who didn't convert.

The Edomite religion wasn't THAT different from Judaism anyway.  They already revered YHWH as their main God.  The major difference was that the Edomites knew that they were un-elect.  They viewed themselves as exiles under a curse, whose duty was to ACCEPT the punishments that YHWH had meted out on them (e.g. a complete ban on farming).

So, many Edomites EMBRACED their conversion.  It was strictly an upgrade to go from "God's cursed people" to "God's chosen people."  They became some of the staunchest adherents of the law.  They blended into the Jewish population, started identifying as Jews, and many became teachers and doctors of the law.

But there's a problem, here, because they didn't really become chosen, they remained cursed.  They still viewed God as angry and punitive, and they began using the law as an instrument of punishment.  The Law was a grievous burden to be born for the Edomite.

That should sound familiar.  In the New Testament, we find the Jews weighed down under the Law in just that way, by the Pharisees and doctors of the Law.  And it's no wonder, as the 1st century Jews were a mixed group with all those absorbed Edomites among them.

In the gospels, we find Jesus talking about Wheat and Tares, and Sheep and Goats, and about a SORTING that is to come, where they would be separated.  It's not a stretch to interpret that as being about the mixed Judah/Edom.

And, of course, that sorting happened in 70AD.  After the war with Rome, only 2 sects remained - the Pharisees, and the Christians. 

The promises and the election and the good news belong to Christianity.  We are Jacob's heir.

The Pharisee religion continues with fastidious observance of the Law, embracing the judgments and punishments of a God who does not seem to like them.  We've called that 'Judaism' for the last 2,000 years, but it looks to me like they are just Esau's true heir.  Still paying for that pot of stew!

Quote from: Reformer on Fri Mar 20, 2026 - 22:59:33

Very well expressed, brother. The Samaritans were "sort of half-and-half." They may fall into the category you wrote about. The fully-bred Jews hated them. Jesus accepted them.

The Samaritans are... strange?  They're clearly not Edomites. 

They aren't necessarily Jewish or Israelite, though.  They are the descendants of foreigners the Assyrians brought in to occupy the area.

Their religion is Jewish, but they... aren't.

Quote from: Reformer on Fri Mar 20, 2026 - 22:59:33

Very well expressed, brother. The Samaritans were "sort of half-and-half." They may fall into the category you wrote about. The fully-bred Jews hated them. Jesus accepted them.

That's a helpful example with the Samaritans.

I'd frame it this way: From the beginning, God has always been after a people born of faith, not merely a line traced by flesh. Even early on, there's a distinction between outward lineage and inward response.

Jesus makes that clear when He shifts the focus:"The flesh profits nothing... the words that I speak are spirit and life."
So the issue isn't ancestry—it's life from above.

That's why Paul can say:"He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... but one inwardly, whose circumcision is of the heart, in the Spirit." (Romans 2:28–29)

And again:" They are not all Israel who are of Israel." (Romans 9:6)So there are always two witnesses:

#1 outward identity (seen)

#2 inward reality (unseen)

The outward can be present—while the inward is missing.

That same principle carries forward: Not all who bear a name—Jew or Christian—necessarily share in the life that name points to. Because the defining mark isn't the label—it's the new birth.

So I wouldn't say descent "doesn't matter" in history—it does, in its place. But it's not what establishes a person before God.

What matters is: Has the heart been made new? Is the life of Christ present within?

And that brings us back to unity: Not groups defined by flesh, background, or title—but people brought together under the same gospel.

Two-count finish:

#1 Not outward name, but inward life.

#2 Not lineage of flesh, but birth from above.