Christian Forums

Quote

CHAP. VI.—ABSTAIN FROM THE POISON OF HERETICS.

I therefore, yet not I, but the love of Jesus Christ, "entreat you that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment." For there are some vain talkers and deceivers, not Christians, but Christ-betrayers, bearing about the name of Christ in deceit, and "corrupting the word" of the Gospel; while they intermix the poison of their deceit with their persuasive talk, as if they mingled aconite with sweet wine, that so he who drinks, being deceived in his taste by the very great sweetness of the draught, may incautiously meet with his death. One of the ancients gives us this advice, "Let no man be called good who mixes good with evil." For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 68.

Interesting that Ignatius here mentions those who taught things contrary to the law, rather than seeking to establish the law. Or those who would alienate the law from Christ, as though such things were of course deception, when he himself taught seedlings of such at the very least. For although the law states the following -

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

While Ignatius himself stated the following -

QuoteLet us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."
Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 62–63.

By which apparently, he suggests the part of the fourth commandment I highlighted above, should no longer be kept. Which later Christinas building upon no doubt, commanded should not be kept, but by way of being in danger of anathema from Christ.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm

QuoteSynod of Laodicea (4th Century)

The Canons of the Synod Held in the City of Laodicea, in Phrygia Pacatiana, in which Many Blessed Fathers from Divers Provinces of Asia Were Gathered Together.

The holy synod which assembled at Laodicea in Phrygia Pacatiana, from various regions of Asia; set forth the ecclesiastical definitions which are hereunder annexed.

Canon 29

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.


Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?." Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.


The Canons of the Eastern Orthodox Church

II Nicaeanum (787)

Canon VIII.
That Hebrews ought not to be received unless they have been converted in sincerity of heart.

Since certain, erring in the superstitions of the Hebrews, have thought to mock at Christ our God, and feigning to be converted to the religion of Christ do deny him, and in private and secretly keep the Sabbath and observe other Jewish customs, we decree that such persons be not received to communion, nor to prayers, nor into the Church; but let them be openly Hebrews according to their religion, and let them not bring their children to baptism, nor purchase or possess a slave. But if any of them, out of a sincere heart and in faith, is converted and makes profession with his whole heart, setting at naught their customs and observances, and so that others may be convinced and converted, such an one is to be received and baptized, and his children likewise; and let them be taught to take care to hold aloof from the ordinances of the Hebrews. But if they will not do this, let them in no wise be received.

Ok, I read replies by both of you.
I think this discussion has reached a very important point.
And I think these discussions could bridge the gaps between our Christian people.
For long, our people are being divided & that is one of the reasons why Christianity is deteriorating & our people have been suffering.
I'll try my best to explain what's happening.
And this will not include any particular Christians  denominations, organizations or any Christian people.

This is the first part which is totally different from the above posts & is about Satan's influence.
I've been reading about a few groups & I think they don't belong to any denomination,
but from their theories, it seems that they are being led by Satan directly.
And I think these groups have many people & the most surprising thing is how Christians could be so gullible.
And they are straightaway teaching that Our God is not the true God & Satan himself is not a fallen angel,
& instead leading Christians towards a higher force.

Satan who was a fallen angel conspired against God in Heaven & has been deceiving the entire world along with his other fallen angels.
And he has been causing immense suffering, extreme forms of persecution, endless tears, emotional pain, & all manner of tort*re,
how can Satan be a good angel or lead anyone towards goodness?

And these people through their negative teachings are increasing their number of followers.
And this group of Satanic people are just distracting innocent Christians & dividing them.

Satan is master of trickery, deceit, manipulation & lies.
And they are just changing Scripture to suit their own Satanic agenda.
If good people wish to see Satan's games,
then these Satanic groups are the example of how Satan is openly & so clearly spreading his dark agenda, in broad daylight.

Plus there are other individuals who are so gullible, to other theories,
that they are not only changing Scripture but also adding from other viewpoints,
completely changing the meaning of our Christian Scripture.
Whether intentionally or unintentionally,
& people are busy diverting & distracting the attention of Christians.
And this should be stopped.
And the only way is to hold on to Scripture.

Another reason why Christianity is deteriorating is because of the diverse doctrines.
Whereas what is necessary is to keep Jesus Christ as Head of The Church,
any religious group & organization.
And the Word of God is what should lead.
Not the altered version of the Bible which is being done by people just because they think that their own views & thoughts are correct.
So much so, that people have begun to question the written Scripture itself because they just can't get along with each other or jointly agree to common viewpoints.


We don't need diverse opinions which distract our people.
Because these diverse opinions are the viewpoints of people not God or Christ.
The most important thing to realize is that what laws God gave to us,
 Christ came to fulfill the prophecy, not to undo what God had already given.
So those who either misunderstood any verse/verses or purposely misunderstand
& then try to convince others,
are actually going against the very Scripture God gave.

God has given freedom & a free will to humanity but that does not mean that this should be used
to demean, manipulate or deceive our Christian people or ridicule & disrespect our faith.
And this has to stop.
Because for us Christians, Our God is above everything.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Matthew 4:4

For the word of the Lord is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does.
Psalm 33:4 
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.
John 7:38


For the Lord gives wisdom;
from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Proverbs 2:6

You are my refuge and my shield;
I have put my hope in your word.
Psalm 119:114 

So is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11

Amo, I've also read one of your posts about why some Christians spoke about not keeping the Sabbath.
Interesting discussion.
I've been reading related viewpoints about people,
On the internet,
& will give an explanation for this.
Maybe this will help Christians to finally see things from the same perspective.
And this will not include any particular Christians denominations, organizations or any Christian Saints.
Thanks for reading.

What I have been noticing is that Christian people have different doctrines & viewpoints.
And because of that they are constantly misunderstanding Scripture.
What they think is that what God said has to be forgotten because Christ came & gave a new meaning to everything.
But what they don't understand is that what God stated as a law,
Christ came to fulfill the prophecies not undo what God had already stated.
And Christ was obedient to His Heavenly Father ... God.
That is why when God sent Christ to redeem humanity,
Christ obeyed God.
Even before the earth was made,
Christ existed in Heaven. And just like God knew everything from the beginning so did Christ.
So if God loved & still loves the Jews, so does Christ,
Amen.
Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Psalm 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!


And even before the earth was made,
by God,
He knew the end & before the end,
He made the beginning.
So if He said that the Jewish people were His chosen & the apple of His eyes,
would Christ have disobeyed God? Never.
Christ loves both the Jews & the Christians.

The Jews are part of God's plan & according to Scripture,
Christ first came through the Jews & will come again through the Jews.
And Scripture teaches us that when Christ will come again,
the Jewish people will believe in the Messiah Christ.

And both the Christians & Jews believe in the same Heavenly Father God.
But Christians believe in Christ as well, who is God Himself & Son of God,
but Jews believe that the Messiah has yet to come. (This is the difference).
For this reason (because of the above mentioned difference), many Christians do not wish to accept Sabbath & consider Jews as having a different doctrine.
Whereas the Holy Bible teaches us believers differently.
God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept Christ as the Messiah.
And what the Holy Bible teaches us believers,
we will accept that as the law for us,
Amen.
(And some Jews have even accepted Christ as the Messiah).

Moreover the Prophets & Saints of the Biblical era,
were all Jewish.
in fact the Old Testament is all about God & the Jews.
And God chose the Jews, as His own, for a divine purpose because Christ was going to come in human form from the Jews.
And through Christ & His ministry, the New Testament was written.
And both the Christians & the Jews are God's children. And God loves both.
And God wants both His children ...the Jews & Christians to live in unity & stand by each other.
And God's love & promises are not like the shifting shadows or like the gullible fickle minds of humanity.
What he has promised will hold.
And for all God obeying Christians, His Word is above all,
Amen.

Quote from: pppp on Sun Aug 23, 2026 - 06:22:59Amo, I've also read one of your posts about why some Christians spoke about not keeping the Sabbath.
Interesting discussion.
I've been reading related viewpoints about people,
On the internet,
& will give an explanation for this.
Maybe this will help Christians to finally see things from the same perspective.
And this will not include any particular Christians denominations, organizations or any Christian Saints.
Thanks for reading.

What I have been noticing is that Christian people have different doctrines & viewpoints.
And because of that they are constantly misunderstanding Scripture.
What they think is that what God said has to be forgotten because Christ came & gave a new meaning to everything.
But what they don't understand is that what God stated as a law,
Christ came to fulfill the prophecies not undo what God had already stated.
And Christ was obedient to His Heavenly Father ... God.
That is why when God sent Christ to redeem humanity,
Christ obeyed God.
Even before the earth was made,
Christ existed in Heaven. And just like God knew everything from the beginning so did Christ.
So if God loved & still loves the Jews, so does Christ,
Amen.
Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Psalm 33:12
Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!


And even before the earth was made,
by God,
He knew the end & before the end,
He made the beginning.
So if He said that the Jewish people were His chosen & the apple of His eyes,
would Christ have disobeyed God? Never.
Christ loves both the Jews & the Christians.

The Jews are part of God's plan & according to Scripture,
Christ first came through the Jews & will come again through the Jews.
And Scripture teaches us that when Christ will come again,
the Jewish people will believe in the Messiah Christ.

And both the Christians & Jews believe in the same Heavenly Father God.
But Christians believe in Christ as well, who is God Himself & Son of God,
but Jews believe that the Messiah has yet to come. (This is the difference).
For this reason (because of the above mentioned difference), many Christians do not wish to accept Sabbath & consider Jews as having a different doctrine.
Whereas the Holy Bible teaches us believers differently.
God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept Christ as the Messiah.
And what the Holy Bible teaches us believers,
we will accept that as the law for us,
Amen.
(And some Jews have even accepted Christ as the Messiah).

Moreover the Prophets & Saints of the Biblical era,
were all Jewish.
in fact the Old Testament is all about God & the Jews.
And God chose the Jews, as His own, for a divine purpose because Christ was going to come in human form from the Jews.
And through Christ & His ministry, the New Testament was written.
And both the Christians & the Jews are God's children. And God loves both.
And God wants both His children ...the Jews & Christians to live in unity & stand by each other.
And God's love & promises are not like the shifting shadows or like the gullible fickle minds of humanity.
What he has promised will hold.
And for all God obeying Christians, His Word is above all,
Amen.

Authentic Christianity, is in reality authentic Judaism. Christ came to his own, and most of his own rejected Him. Those He chose from among the Jews who did not, became the true New covenant Israel of God. Whom some began to mockingly call, Christinas. The name stuck. The evil one took advantage of the situation, and created a division used to create confusion since its inception. There is no Israel or authentic Judaism apart from Christ our Lord the promised Messiah of the Jews. Literal Israel of God today, is not the true Israel of God, which are all who are truly in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Quote

CHAP. VII.—THE SAME CONTINUED.

Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons, that ye admit not of a snare for your own souls. And act so that your life shall be without offence to all men, lest ye become as "a snare upon a watch-tower, and as a net which is spread out." For "he that does not heal himself in his own works, is the brother of him that destroys himself." If, therefore, ye also put away conceit, arrogance, disdain, and haughtiness, it will be your privilege to be inseparably united to God, for "He is nigh unto those that fear Him." And says He, "Upon whom will I look, but upon him that is humble and quiet, and that trembles at my words?" And do ye also reverence your bishop as Christ Himself, according as the blessed apostles have enjoined you. He that is within the altar is pure, wherefore also he is obedient to the bishop and presbyters: but he that is without is one that does anything apart from the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons. Such a person is defiled in his conscience, and is worse than an infidel. For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counsellors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers,7 fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as the holy Stephen did to the blessed James, Timothy and Linus to Paul, Anencletus and Clement to Peter? He, therefore, that will not yield obedience to such, must needs be one utterly without God, an impious man who despises Christ, and depreciates His appointments.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 69.

Bishop Ignatius just can't seem to stop declaring that Bishops should be looked upon and even reverenced as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who is God. Then even declaring that the apostles instructed the faithful to do so. I wonder exactly where such Holy Scripture is, what verses he is referring to? Where do any of the prophets, or apostles call upon all to look upon them as God or Christ Jesus Himself. Then by extension to look upon the presbyters and deacons in like manner. Only as they are in accord with the bishops of course, who stand in the place of God himself to them, if they are truly faithful. No room for the Holy Spirit of God to act upon the individual believer unto immediate witness or ministry. Oh no, do nothing without the bishop, another sinful extremely limited man such as all others. Whom being disobeyed or not consulted of course, equals not consulting or disobeying God Himself. Blasphemy, pure and simple.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

No bishop elected by the body of Christ can even begin to approach being looked upon and or reverenced as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the true Shepherd and Bishop of every individual member of the body of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, His Church. Only such as the Apostle Paul described seeking followers after themselves would declare such, and only those who have been deceived would receive such as biblical truth.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. 23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Ignorance alone, of just how high above us our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is, could ever inspire anyone to declare that they or any other sinner should be looked upon, considered, or reverenced as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The Alpha and Omega. The Self existing one. The King of kings. The WORD OF GOD. The Creator. The Sustainer. The Savior of all.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Amo, thank you for your reply.
I humbly request you to please consider my point of view.
The Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible.
And God knew this even before he first made the earth.
And when the earth was made by Him & when He proclaimed
that the Jews of the Biblical times were His chosen,
He meant that not only in those times,
but forever the Jews would remain His chosen.
And the Bible provides proof for this.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3

2 Samuel 7:24
24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, Lord, have become their God.

Jeremiah 31:3
"The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.'"


Then further proof is given in Revelation 20.
Revelation 20
The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This Biblical verse clearly tells of Satan who will gather his accomplices for battle against the camp of God's people, the city he loves ...& that is God's chosen Israel.
This clearly shows that the city which God loves which will be under  attack from Satan will be the Israel of the future which is the same as that of the Biblical times.
And fire will come down from heaven and devour them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown.

God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.
According to Paul, during the Second Coming of the Saviour,
The Jews will accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.

Revelation 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming"

Revelation 19:11-20
Christ is described on a white horse defeating the beast and false prophet, casting them into the lake of fire.
Revelation 13 again states wage war against God's holy people to conquer them.
But will be defeated by Christ.
According to the verse, the Holy People will be the future Israel,
Which is the same as that of the Biblical times.

There are already some Jews have even accepted the Messiah,
 the Son of God, & God Himself
& are even helping other Jews to accept the Messiah.
And God knew this in advance, thus proving that the Israel of Biblical times is the same as that of the present times & of the future.

Whatever has been ordained by God, will be fulfilled & His Words will remain forever.
Luke 1:37
''For no word from God will ever fail."
Amen.

Quote from: pppp on Mon Aug 24, 2026 - 03:34:38Amo, thank you for your reply.
I humbly request you to please consider my point of view.
The Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible.
And God knew this even before he first made the earth.
And when the earth was made by Him & when He proclaimed
that the Jews of the Biblical times were His chosen,
He meant that not only in those times,
but forever the Jews would remain His chosen.
And the Bible provides proof for this.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3

2 Samuel 7:24
24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, Lord, have become their God.

Jeremiah 31:3
"The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.'"


Then further proof is given in Revelation 20.
Revelation 20
The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This Biblical verse clearly tells of Satan who will gather his accomplices for battle against the camp of God's people, the city he loves ...& that is God's chosen Israel.
This clearly shows that the city which God loves which will be under  attack from Satan will be the Israel of the future which is the same as that of the Biblical times.
And fire will come down from heaven and devour them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown.

God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.
According to Paul, during the Second Coming of the Saviour,
The Jews will accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.

Revelation 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming"

Revelation 19:11-20
Christ is described on a white horse defeating the beast and false prophet, casting them into the lake of fire.
Revelation 13 again states wage war against God's holy people to conquer them.
But will be defeated by Christ.
According to the verse, the Holy People will be the future Israel,
Which is the same as that of the Biblical times.

There are already some Jews have even accepted the Messiah,
 the Son of God, & God Himself
& are even helping other Jews to accept the Messiah.
And God knew this in advance, thus proving that the Israel of Biblical times is the same as that of the present times & of the future.

Whatever has been ordained by God, will be fulfilled & His Words will remain forever.
Luke 1:37
''For no word from God will ever fail."
Amen.

Amo, thank you for your reply. I would offer another way of looking at Israel from Scripture—the doctrine of two kinds.

Throughout Scripture we are given the historical, temporal things that can be seen, while through them God teaches us about the eternal things that cannot be seen:

"For the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." — 2 Corinthians 4:18

That agrees with the law of faith established from the beginning:

"Let there be..."

and then:

"And it was so."

God faithfully speaks, and what His word accomplishes is God alone good.

Jacob and Israel — Two Names, Two Conditions

Look at Jacob.

Jacob was the second-born son. His name is associated in Scripture with supplanting:

"Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times..." — Genesis 27:36

Esau, meanwhile, placed little value upon his birthright. For bread and lentil pottage he sold it:

"Thus Esau despised his birthright." — Genesis 25:34

Later something remarkable happens to Jacob.

He wrestles through the night and receives a new name:

"Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel..." — Genesis 32:28

So Scripture itself gives us:

JACOB → ISRAEL.

The old name and the new name.

That becomes a beautiful picture of the principle Jesus later states plainly:

"Ye MUST be born again." — John 3:7

Not All Israel Is born again Israel

Paul then makes a distinction that is essential to this discussion:

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL." — Romans 9:6

He continues:
"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children..." — Romans 9:7

Therefore physical descent alone cannot define everything Scripture means by Israel.

Paul makes the same distinction with the word Jew:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly..." — Romans 2:28

Then comes the other kind:

"But he is a Jew, which is one INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the HEART, in the spirit, and not in the letter..." — Romans 2:29

There again are the two kinds:

OUTWARD → visible, fleshly.

INWARD → spiritual, of the heart.

Revelation even warns about those who claim the spiritual identity while lacking its reality:

"Which say they are Jews, and are not..." — Revelation 2:9

The New Name

Isaiah also promised that God's people would receive a new name:

"And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a NEW NAME, which the mouth of the LORD shall name." — Isaiah 62:2

And later we read:

"And the disciples were called CHRISTIANS first in Antioch." — Acts 11:26

That name is beautifully fitting for the bride gathered from all nations under her husband Christ.

So I don't understand biblical Israel merely according to modern geography, ethnicity, or fleshly ancestry.

Scripture itself tells me:

Not all Israel is Israel.

Not every outward Jew is the inward Jew.

And likewise, simply wearing the outward name Christian cannot make someone a new creature.

The same principle applies:

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." — 2 Corinthians 5:17

That is why the distinction between the two kinds matters.

There is the Israel that can be identified according to the flesh and history, and there is the spiritual reality Scripture tells us to discern by faith.

The living abiding word of God has not failed.

Rather, Scripture itself warns us not to confuse the outward name with the inward new creature.

Jacob → Israel.
Outward → inward.
Flesh → Spirit.

Old creature → new creature.

The question ultimately returns to the same foundation:

"Ye MUST be born again."

I was reading about Saint Ignatius of Antioch & the era in which he lived.
During the time of Saint Ignatius of Antioch ( 35–108 AD),
the Christian religion & Christians faced severe persecution from an empire.
And were being distracted by false teachings.

Christians in that era faced persecution by the state & were being arrested & ex*cuted for refusing to believe in their teachings.
Believers were being forced to deny the Christian faith,
& that was the reason why Saint Ignatius was martyred (because he refused to give up the Christian faith).

And the Christians who were even travelling faced cruel treatment by the authorities.
And the people were being divided by false doctrines.
Under these difficult circumstances, hardships, trials & persecutions,
Saint Ignatius was telling the Christian believers to stay close to the Bishops
& hold on to the teachings that Christ gave to His Apostles.

Even from within, disagreements were dividing the Christian communities.
And without a very strong leadership,
Churches were at risk from  others, who were not believers & by the divided Christian groups,
& that was the reason why Saint Ignatius of Antioch stressed obedience to the higher Church leaders & to be united in the Eucharist as the defense for the survival of Christianity.

thank you garee for your reply.
I have understood what you have written.
But my point of view though different from yours, is taken from the Bible itself, which in itself is The Holy Word of God Almighty.
Please consider my point of view too.

You have written about the Israel which is in the present & whose ancestry is from Abraham.
And God supports this present Israel,
because they too believe in Him.
And The Holy Bible tells us that in future era,
Christ will come through them,
& they have importance in the Holy Bible.

And according to the Scripture, it  tells us that they will believe in the Blessed Messiah, which Almighty God already knew.
Amen.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.
John 7:38

The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God endures forever.
Isaiah 40:8
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Matthew 24:35

The unfolding of your words gives light;
it gives understanding to the simple.
Psalm 119:130

For the word of the Lord is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does.
Psalm 33:4
So is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11

Quote from: pppp on Tue Aug 25, 2026 - 05:12:56thank you garee for your reply.
I have understood what you have written.
But my point of view though different from yours, is taken from the Bible itself, which in itself is The Holy Word of God Almighty.
Please consider my point of view too.

You have written about the Israel which is in the present & whose ancestry is from Abraham.
And God supports this present Israel,
because they too believe in Him.
And The Holy Bible tells us that in future era,
Christ will come through them,
& they have importance in the Holy Bible.

And according to the Scripture, it  tells us that they will believe in the Blessed Messiah, which Almighty God already knew.
Amen.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.
John 7:38

The grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of our God endures forever.
Isaiah 40:8
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Matthew 24:35

The unfolding of your words gives light;
it gives understanding to the simple.
Psalm 119:130

For the word of the Lord is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does.
Psalm 33:4
So is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 55:11

Hi pppp, thanks for the reply. I agree with the Scriptures you quoted concerning God's everlasting Word. This question of Israel and ancestry is something I have been studying.

I see Scripture developing two kinds of ancestry: fleshly ancestry and the ancestry of faith—the children of promise.

The second born Like Abraham born again pattern begins early in Genesis.

Cain was born first. Abel followed and became God's early witness of righteousness by faith:

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous." — Hebrews 11:4

Cain murdered Abel. Then God gave Seth:

"God... hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew." — Genesis 4:25

Seth is the third son named in this account, which I see fitting the biblical pattern of three bringing a matter to its completion: Abel was killed, but the promised line did not end.

Then Seth had Enos:

"And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD." — Genesis 4:26

I see in this an early picture pointing forward to God's family of faith and ultimately to the promised Seed, Christ.

The same distinction becomes much clearer with Abraham:

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." — Romans 9:8

That is the key: flesh is not the same as promise.

We see the distinction again with Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau. Jacob was later given a new name:

"Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel." — Genesis 32:28

But Scripture warns us not to identify God's Israel merely by natural ancestry:

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." — Romans 9:6

And:

"He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly." — Romans 2:28–29

The promised ancestry finally centers upon one Seed—Christ:

"And to thy seed, which is Christ." — Galatians 3:16

Then Scripture opens that family to believers of every nation:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." — Galatians 3:28–29

That is why I do not see God's eternal family as a holy race, but as a holy people born of the Spirit and joined by faith to the promised Seed.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." — John 3:6

God is Spirit. He is not a Jewish or Gentile man. He is no respecter of persons.

"In every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." — Acts 10:34–35

So when I read about Israel, I keep the two kinds separate:

Flesh gives birth to flesh.
Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Children of the flesh are not automatically children of the promise.
The promised Seed is Christ.

And that brings us right back to the foundation:

"Ye must be born again." — John 3:7

God's holy people not holy race. Christ is not a racist. God is not dying  Jewish man

Hi garee, thank you for your reply.
I have understood what you're trying to convey.
Though my point of view is different from yours,
but both the viewpoints are supported by the Bible.
Please do reflect on what my point of view is. Thanks.

Ok, you are saying that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven,
people should believe in Christ.
This is the first point of view according to you.
I also, do believe, that in order to get eternal life & enter the kingdom of Heaven,
faith in Christ is the way. And this is given in Scripture.

The second point of view is mine where I'm writing that God's chosen are the Jewish people.
And Christ will come again through them.
This view point is supported by the Bible as well.


Since both viewpoints are supported by the Bible,
how can they be contradictory? Because God does not contradict Himself.
But to understand how both viewpoints though different are not contradictory & are leading towards the same meaning,
this discussion has to start with understanding the nature of God Himself.
God is not mortal that He will promise & take it back.
Then God is all knowing, can change the future, is present everywhere,
knows the beginning & the end,
compassionate, calm & full of light.
So such a Beloved God, who is limitless & whose wisdom the mortal mind cannot comprehend, when He gave His Word, He already knew what He had written in advance & knew that everything would be fulfilled.

The first viewpoint is correct (yours),
so is the second (mine).
How?
Because through Christ, believers will enter Heaven.
And since God already promise Jacob that his future children will not be consumed,
in itself shows that they too will get a place in Heaven.
And this will not be contradictory because,
after Satan will come along with his two accomplices,
the false teacher & the anti Christ,
& will begin to persecute the Jews,
Christ will come to save them & finally cast the unholy trio in the abyss.
And according to Scripture, when the Jews will see this,
they will believe in the Blessed Messiah.
And so will enter Heaven.
So your point of view & mine are not contradictory because the Holy Bible supports both views.

I also said that Abraham, Isaac & Jacob & their future children were chosen & will be continuously blessed.
This too is supported by the Bible.
And God is just & all are equal to Him.
So the question arises, why were only the Jews chosen of God?
When God chooses someone, it's not because He is unjust or does favouritism, but because in every decision, there is a divine purpose.

And God's divine purpose in choosing the Jews was because they were faithful, & Christ would first come through them, in human form.

Just like God chose Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel & a number of other Prophets & Saints.
God chooses on His divine purpose. And He knows that the people He chooses will submit to God, obey, be faithful & walk in the light of God.
And God chose the Jews because they obeyed Him, were brave, upright & righteous.
Amen.

Deuteronomy 14:2 – "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession."

Deuteronomy 7:7-8 – "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors." God chose them out of His own love and faithfulness.

Genesis 12:3 – "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." God promises protection and blessing to the descendants of Abraham.

Romans 11:1-2 – "Did God reject his people? By no means!... God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew."
Romans 11:29 – "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Jeremiah 31:35-37 tells about God's commitment to the nation of Israel.
God compares His commitment to the nation of Israel just like the fixed laws the sun, moon, and stars,
stating that only if these natural laws ever fail will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Him.

And since these laws will never fail, so God's love for the nation of Israel will remain forever.
Amen.

So again my point of view is supported by the Holy Bible.
God is just & correct in absolutely everything He does
& for us Christians,
His Word is a lamp for our feet.
And God loves both Christians & the Jews,
Amen.


Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1 John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:5

Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
Matthew 5:15-16

The precepts of the Lord are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
Psalm 19:8

Amen.

Quote from: pppp on Wed Aug 26, 2026 - 04:41:59Hi garee, thank you for your reply.
I have understood what you're trying to convey.
Though my point of view is different from yours,
but both the viewpoints are supported by the Bible.
Please do reflect on what my point of view is. Thanks.

Ok, you are saying that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven,
people should believe in Christ.
This is the first point of view according to you.
I also, do believe, that in order to get eternal life & enter the kingdom of Heaven,
faith in Christ is the way. And this is given in Scripture.

The second point of view is mine where I'm writing that God's chosen are the Jewish people.
And Christ will come again through them.
This view point is supported by the Bible as well.


Since both viewpoints are supported by the Bible,
how can they be contradictory? Because God does not contradict Himself.
But to understand how both viewpoints though different are not contradictory & are leading towards the same meaning,
this discussion has to start with understanding the nature of God Himself.
God is not mortal that He will promise & take it back.
Then God is all knowing, can change the future, is present everywhere,
knows the beginning & the end,
compassionate, calm & full of light.
So such a Beloved God, who is limitless & whose wisdom the mortal mind cannot comprehend, when He gave His Word, He already knew what He had written in advance & knew that everything would be fulfilled.

The first viewpoint is correct (yours),
so is the second (mine).
How?
Because through Christ, believers will enter Heaven.
And since God already promise Jacob that his future children will not be consumed,
in itself shows that they too will get a place in Heaven.
And this will not be contradictory because,
after Satan will come along with his two accomplices,
the false teacher & the anti Christ,
& will begin to persecute the Jews,
Christ will come to save them & finally cast the unholy trio in the abyss.
And according to Scripture, when the Jews will see this,
they will believe in the Blessed Messiah.
And so will enter Heaven.
So your point of view & mine are not contradictory because the Holy Bible supports both views.

I also said that Abraham, Isaac & Jacob & their future children were chosen & will be continuously blessed.
This too is supported by the Bible.
And God is just & all are equal to Him.
So the question arises, why were only the Jews chosen of God?
When God chooses someone, it's not because He is unjust or does favouritism, but because in every decision, there is a divine purpose.

And God's divine purpose in choosing the Jews was because they were faithful, & Christ would first come through them, in human form.

Just like God chose Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel & a number of other Prophets & Saints.
God chooses on His divine purpose. And He knows that the people He chooses will submit to God, obey, be faithful & walk in the light of God.
And God chose the Jews because they obeyed Him, were brave, upright & righteous.
Amen.

Deuteronomy 14:2 – "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession."

Deuteronomy 7:7-8 – "The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors." God chose them out of His own love and faithfulness.

Genesis 12:3 – "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." God promises protection and blessing to the descendants of Abraham.

Romans 11:1-2 – "Did God reject his people? By no means!... God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew."
Romans 11:29 – "For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."

Jeremiah 31:35-37 tells about God's commitment to the nation of Israel.
God compares His commitment to the nation of Israel just like the fixed laws the sun, moon, and stars,
stating that only if these natural laws ever fail will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Him.

And since these laws will never fail, so God's love for the nation of Israel will remain forever.
Amen.

So again my point of view is supported by the Holy Bible.
God is just & correct in absolutely everything He does
& for us Christians,
His Word is a lamp for our feet.
And God loves both Christians & the Jews,
Amen.


Your word is a lamp for my feet,
a light on my path.
Psalm 119:105

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1 John 1:5
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:5

Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
Matthew 5:15-16

The precepts of the Lord are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
Psalm 19:8

Amen.

Chosen People—Not a Chosen Race

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I think we should begin by making an important distinction:

God chose a people for His purpose; He did not teach that one race of flesh and blood is spiritually superior to another.

God certainly made mankind with different nations, languages and earthly families. But when it comes to salvation, God is "no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34).

Paul gives us the safeguard:

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."— Romans 9:6

So there were always two things that must not be confused:

Israel according to the flesh, with its historical calling and promises;

and

the children of promise, identified through faith.

Paul immediately explains:

"They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."— Romans 9:8

That doesn't erase God's historical dealings with Israel. It tells us that physical ancestry alone never made someone a child of God.

That is why Paul could also say:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly."— Romans 2:28–29

And after Christ:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."— Galatians 3:28

Then Paul identifies Abraham's promised family:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."— Galatians 3:29

So yes, Israel was chosen for God's historical purpose. Through that nation came the Scriptures and, according to the flesh, Christ (Romans 9:4–5).

But being chosen for a purpose should not be confused with one race possessing an automatic spiritual inheritance.

God's eternal family is not determined by DNA.

Jew or Gentile, the requirement remains:

"Ye must be born again."

Chosen people—yes.

A spiritually superior race of flesh and blood—no.

God is no respecter of persons, and in Christ believers from all nations become "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

hi garee, thanks for reading & your reply.
I know, still there are some differences in our points of view, but please again, do consider my point of view too. Thanks.
I think its an interesting discussion & its going to lead to the fact that your point of view & mine are actually supported by the Holy Bible. And whatever God ordained will be fulfilled,
Amen.

To understand these points of view, both yours & mine,
lets start with yours.
According to you, God's family, is not determined by ancestry but by belief in Christ.
So Scripture is supporting your point of view.
Ok, I believe this point of view because God is just, & does not choose by favouritism, but chooses people by their faith in Christ & this is important because the believer enters the Kingdom of God through Christ who is the mediator between God & the believers.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14:6

Now let's start with my point of view.
I said that God promised Abraham & his offspring, His eternal love.
Now, Abraham's offspring are the present Jewish people & all those non Jews who will believe in Christ.
So all those believers who are not Jews by blood, & will keep Christ in their hearts will become Abraham's spiritual offspring too, & will enter Heaven.

Now, there are two types of believers.
The first ones who were born Christians & so are believers.
The second, are those who hear the Blessed Word & believe.

Just like, doesn't God love people who become believers in Christ, even though it took time for them to accept the Word of God? He does.
So even when it takes time for people to become believers, God waits as He wishes that as many people as possible should follow Christ, to receive the eternal life & a place in Heaven,
& to save them from Satan's darkness.


But what about the present Jewish people who by blood are Abraham's offspring.
Will God forget them? NO.
Because God's promises are not like shifting shadows.
And when God promised Abraham that He would never ever leave them.
He was talking about the offspring of Abraham by blood & by faith.
And God in His undying love, for Abraham, Isaac & Jacob,
will never forsake the present or future Jewish people.
But God is a Heavenly Father as well,
& wouldn't He want Abraham's offspring to enter Heaven?
Of course, He very much wants them to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
That is why Scripture says, that after Satan along with his two evil accomplices comes to persecute the Jews,
Christ will come & throw the unholy trio in the abyss & save the Jewish community.
And after seeing this, the Jewish people will begin to believe in the Blessed Messiah.
And so will also enter Heaven with an eternal life.
Thus the prophecy of God will be fulfilled according to Scripture.
Amen.

So, this shows that both the Jews & Gentiles who will accept the Blessed Messiah will enter Heaven.
Amen.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
John 10:28-30

For those who find me find life
and receive favor from the Lord.
Proverbs 8:35

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
2 Corinthians 4:18

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:3
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16
Amen.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
Revelation 21:3-4

But whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 4:14 

'Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,'
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
'he will lead them to springs of living water.'
'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'
Revelation 7:16-17

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:8
    

Quote from: pppp on Mon Aug 24, 2026 - 03:34:38Amo, thank you for your reply.
I humbly request you to please consider my point of view.
The Israel of today is the same as the Israel of the Bible.
And God knew this even before he first made the earth.
And when the earth was made by Him & when He proclaimed
that the Jews of the Biblical times were His chosen,
He meant that not only in those times,
but forever the Jews would remain His chosen.
And the Bible provides proof for this.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for himself, Israel as his own possession.
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend;
Genesis 12:3

2 Samuel 7:24
24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, Lord, have become their God.

Jeremiah 31:3
"The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.'"


Then further proof is given in Revelation 20.
Revelation 20
The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This Biblical verse clearly tells of Satan who will gather his accomplices for battle against the camp of God's people, the city he loves ...& that is God's chosen Israel.
This clearly shows that the city which God loves which will be under  attack from Satan will be the Israel of the future which is the same as that of the Biblical times.
And fire will come down from heaven and devour them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false teacher had been thrown.

God's Word teaches us to stand by the Jews as God already knew that the Jews would eventually accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.
According to Paul, during the Second Coming of the Saviour,
The Jews will accept the Messiah,
which again proves that the Israel of the future is the same as that of the Biblical times.

Revelation 13
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming"

Revelation 19:11-20
Christ is described on a white horse defeating the beast and false prophet, casting them into the lake of fire.
Revelation 13 again states wage war against God's holy people to conquer them.
But will be defeated by Christ.
According to the verse, the Holy People will be the future Israel,
Which is the same as that of the Biblical times.

There are already some Jews have even accepted the Messiah,
 the Son of God, & God Himself
& are even helping other Jews to accept the Messiah.
And God knew this in advance, thus proving that the Israel of Biblical times is the same as that of the present times & of the future.

Whatever has been ordained by God, will be fulfilled & His Words will remain forever.
Luke 1:37
''For no word from God will ever fail."
Amen.

There have always been a remnant of the Jews who have accepted the Messiah. Our Lord selected His disciples from His chosen nation, through whom He established His church after His ascension. Who were joined by many of their brethren. To whom were added a great many more gentiles, who at first were considered basically Messianic Jews, who later became increasingly separated from those Jews who persecute them. Until the name of Christian was attached to them, at which time the separation began to increase, and the following prophecy began to be fulfilled in taking the kingdom of God away from those Jews who had and continue to reject their Messiah.

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Nevertheless -

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.......................
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Christianity is built upon the faith of God's chosen in Him from the beginning. Therefore is it built upon the faith of Abraham and his children, not the other way around. Therefore will all Israel be saved, and considered children of Abraham only as they share his faith. No one can have their sins taken away but in Christ Jesus alone. Therefore the Jews whom the kingdom of God was taken away from, remain outside according to their own lack of faith, while those who choose to follow their Messiah a grafted back into the vine which is Christ. Amen.

The same holds true today for Christianity. As Christianity has repeated the history of Judaism, in the continuous slides into apostasies and reformations which have taken place throughout its history. Those only who are the original faith in God, which has always been in Christ alone as predicted during the Old Covenant and fulfilled in the New, will have their sins taken away unto salvation.

Gen 3:15  "And I will put enmity (open hostility) Between you and the woman, And between your seed (offspring) and her Seed; He shall [fatally] bruise your head, And you shall [only] bruise His heel."(AMP)

Now to the woman and her seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Amo, thank you for your reply.
Yes, its true that all those who believe in Christ will eventually enter Heaven with an eternal life.
And God in His divine mercy wants both the Jews & the unbelievers to become believers in the Blessed Messiah so that they too can enter Heaven & be saved.
But since God had already promised Jacob that his off spring would not be consumed, He already knew in advance what the future will be.
And in the future as written in the Bible,
Satan along with his two evil accomplices will come on the earth to persecute humanity & the Jews,
& then Christ will come & defeat the unholy trio & cast them in the abyss.
And on seeing this, the Jews (current & future off spring of Abraham through blood), will begin to finally believe in the Blessed Messiah & hence will enter Heaven along with the Gentiles,
& then the Gentiles through faith will also become the spiritual offspring of Abraham.

Amo, you have written correctly that Christianity has gone in the continuous slides into Apostasy.
And this is something to be concerned about.
What Christians really need is to be united in Christ.
And follow what the Holy Bible clearly teaches believers rather than relying on those who either don't fully understand or misinterpret or purposely
cause distractions & divisions.

And this unity will eventually lead to a better society, a stronger bonding between Christians & will stop distractions from taking over.
In the Church, Christ should be the Head & the teacher should fully submit to Christ's teachings rather than misconstrue Scripture.
So that the believers can understand what Christ actually meant.

But  whilst many believers are strictly following the Bible, sadly others are either being guided wrongly or they themselves are not fully understanding Scripture.
And this should change.

What Christians need is just a single body where Christ is the Head not human beings,
or we need a single body of united Christians, where Satan in the form of human beings is not dividing or distracting believers.
We need unity in Christ because our Head is Christ Jesus whom we serve, whom we love, whose Word we believe & whom we trust.
And no one can take the place of Christ,
Amen.

No more divided doctrines or distractions. Just our eternal love & faith in Our Beloved Christ Jesus,
who was, is & will be the Head of everything.

I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
Job 19:25

By doctrines & distractions, I mean a set of theories, given by people only, which does not include Scripture.
The True Doctrine is the Word of God given in the Holy Bible.

Quote from: pppp on Sat Aug 29, 2026 - 10:19:09Amo, thank you for your reply.
Yes, its true that all those who believe in Christ will eventually enter Heaven with an eternal life.
And God in His divine mercy wants both the Jews & the unbelievers to become believers in the Blessed Messiah so that they too can enter Heaven & be saved.
But since God had already promised Jacob that his off spring would not be consumed, He already knew in advance what the future will be.
And in the future as written in the Bible,
Satan along with his two evil accomplices will come on the earth to persecute humanity & the Jews,
& then Christ will come & defeat the unholy trio & cast them in the abyss.
And on seeing this, the Jews (current & future off spring of Abraham through blood), will begin to finally believe in the Blessed Messiah & hence will enter Heaven along with the Gentiles,
& then the Gentiles through faith will also become the spiritual offspring of Abraham.

So, just exactly who do you think has been behind all the persecution of Christians and Jews throughout history until now? And if such will convert all the Jews at some point in the future because of persecution, then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?

Quote from: pppp on Sat Aug 29, 2026 - 11:10:11Amo, you have written correctly that Christianity has gone in the continuous slides into Apostasy.
And this is something to be concerned about.
What Christians really need is to be united in Christ.
And follow what the Holy Bible clearly teaches believers rather than relying on those who either don't fully understand or misinterpret or purposely
cause distractions & divisions.

And this unity will eventually lead to a better society, a stronger bonding between Christians & will stop distractions from taking over.
In the Church, Christ should be the Head & the teacher should fully submit to Christ's teachings rather than misconstrue Scripture.
So that the believers can understand what Christ actually meant.

But  whilst many believers are strictly following the Bible, sadly others are either being guided wrongly or they themselves are not fully understanding Scripture.
And this should change.

What Christians need is just a single body where Christ is the Head not human beings,
or we need a single body of united Christians, where Satan in the form of human beings is not dividing or distracting believers.
We need unity in Christ because our Head is Christ Jesus whom we serve, whom we love, whose Word we believe & whom we trust.
And no one can take the place of Christ,
Amen.

No more divided doctrines or distractions. Just our eternal love & faith in Our Beloved Christ Jesus,
who was, is & will be the Head of everything.

I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
Job 19:25

There is no authentic unity in Christ, by ignoring doctrinal differences. Such would have to include ignoring doctrinal truths of Holy Scripture. Forsaking the truth for the sake of unity, only leads to apostasy. If unity is not in and of the truth, then what is it, but a lie.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Jesus Christ is the truth.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Everyone who is of the truth hears His voice.

Jhn 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Only those who love the truth will be saved. All the lost will be lost because they had not a love of the truth.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

No one who has believed or taught lies will be in heaven.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There can be no authentic unity between truth and error. If people will simply forget what they believe to be truth, for the sake of an outward show of unity, they will simply be apostate. God will spue or vomit them out of His mouth.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

What could more effectively represent the highlighted condition of God's final Church upon earth, than all the professed Christinas coming together in some false form of unity, which requires that they all remain silent regarding that which they deem to be the truth? Not just the truth, but the truths which the Holy Scriptures themselves expound upon?

Quote

CHAP. IX.—REFERENCE TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

Stop your ears, therefore, when any one speaks to you at variance with Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was descended from David, and was also of Mary; who was truly begotten of God and of the Virgin, but not after the same manner. For indeed God and man are not the same. He truly assumed a body; for "the Word was made flesh," and lived upon earth without sin. For says He, "Which of you convicteth me of sin?" He did in reality both eat and drink. He was crucified and died under Pontius Pilate. He really, and not merely in appearance, was crucified, and died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. By those in heaven I mean such as are possessed of incorporeal natures; by those on earth, the Jews and Romans, and such persons as were present at that time when the Lord was crucified; and by those under the earth, the multitude that arose along with the Lord. For says the Scripture, "Many bodies of the saints that slept arose," their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude; and rent asunder that means of separation which had existed from the beginning of the world, and cast down its partition-wall. He also rose again in three days, the Father raising Him up; and after spending forty days with the apostles, He was received up to the Father, and "sat down at His right hand, expecting till His enemies are placed under His feet." On the day of the preparation, then, at the third hour, He received the sentence from Pilate, the Father permitting that to happen; at the sixth hour He was crucified; at the ninth hour He gave up the ghost; and before sunset He was buried. During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord's day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, "As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord's Day contains the resurrection.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 70.

The only issue I will address from the above chapter is Ignatius extra biblical application of the title of the Lord's Day to Sunday. This would be in line of course with his previous extra biblical exaltation of Sunday as the Lord's Day above all others as well. A term never applied to the first day of the week in Holy Scripture. The only day Holy Scripture refers to as specifically the Lord's, is the seventh day sabbath of the fourth commandment. Which God Himself called his sabbath many times over in scripture, being also referred to as His sabbath in other scriptures as well. It is one thing to begin a tradition of observing a day in commemoration of the resurrection, it is another thing altogether to claim that this chosen tradition of man is the Lord's Day. Especially if or when such is intended to be taken by all, that the Lord Himself declared it to be so. Which no scripture attests to, though some might claim apparently, that He did so extra biblically to them I suppose.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Aug 29, 2026 - 15:32:54The only issue I will address from the above chapter is Ignatius extra biblical application of the title of the Lord's Day to Sunday. This would be in line of course with his previous extra biblical exaltation of Sunday as the Lord's Day above all others as well. A term never applied to the first day of the week in Holy Scripture. The only day Holy Scripture refers to as specifically the Lord's, is the seventh day sabbath of the fourth commandment. Which God Himself called his sabbath many times over in scripture, being also referred to as His sabbath in other scriptures as well. It is one thing to begin a tradition of observing a day in commemoration of the resurrection, it is another thing altogether to claim that this chosen tradition of man is the Lord's Day. Especially if or when such is intended to be taken by all, that the Lord Himself declared it to be so. Which no scripture attests to, though some might claim apparently, that He did so extra biblically to them I suppose.

Amo, again, "a sabbath day's journey" appears to reflect a traditional boundary—a law of the fathers concerning how far one could travel—rather than a written command from God specifying a certain number of cubits.

"Then returned they unto Jerusalem... which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey." — Acts 1:12 KJV

Acts records the expression, but where does Moses give that measured travel restriction as God's command?

That is important because Isaiah 58 does not define God's true fast by how far a person may travel.

Quite the opposite.

God rebukes the religious fast that ends in contention:

"Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high." — Isaiah 58:4

There is the wicked fist—religion demanding that its voice be heard on high.

Then God reveals His fast:

"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness... to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" — Isaiah 58:6

And what follows?

"Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry...?" — Isaiah 58:7

There is no mileage restriction placed upon sharing that mercy.

That takes me back to the manna and the witness of two days.

FIRST DAY — PREPARATION

"To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe." — Exodus 16:23

Prepare beforehand.

SECOND DAY — EAT AND REST

"Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD." — Exodus 16:25

There is the twofold witness:

Prepare → Eat.
Gather → Rest.
Receive → Share.

And in the gathering:

"He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack." — Exodus 16:18

Paul later applies that very manna principle to one person's abundance supplying another person's need:

"That now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want." — 2 Corinthians 8:14

Then Hebrews reveals the gospel contained within the historical lesson:

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them." — Hebrews 4:2

And:

"For we which have believed do enter into rest." — Hebrews 4:3

So I see the ceremonial Sabbath as a witness of two:

The first day prepares the provision.
The next day receives, eats, and rests in that provision.

Isaiah 58 then shows the fruit of that rest: break the yoke, care for the afflicted, and deal thy bread to the hungry.

No rabbinical measurement can determine how far God's gospel rest may travel.

Christ's commission goes in exactly the opposite direction:

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." — Mark 16:15

Not: How far am I permitted to go?

But: Go into all the world.

The temporal ceremonial shadow had its appointed boundaries.

The eternal gospel rest is to be shared with the world.

Amo, you have written ...''So, just exactly who do you think has been ........then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?
Firstly the persecution that Jews & Christians have faced is because of Satan & his accomplices.

Revelation 12
.....7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him....
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Secondly, whatever has been written in Scripture is the Word of God Himself, which will certainly & surely come true.
And there should be no misinterpretations, additions or subtractions from it.

Deuteronomy 4:2: "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you."
Proverbs 30:5-6: "Every word of God is flawless... Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."

Amo, you have replied -And if such will convert all the Jews at some point in the future because of persecution, then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?

Next, Scripture clearly states that only when the Satan sends the False teacher & the antichrist,
& they along with Satan begin to persecute humanity & the Jews,
will Our Beloved Jesus Christ come & defeat all three who are unholy,
& then the Jews will believe in The Blessed Messiah.
Amen.
This has been clearly given in Scripture & whatever God has ordained will be fulfilled, in His divine timing.
Amen.

Revelation 13, Revelation 20-22

Ecclesiastes 3:1: "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens."

Isaiah 60:22: "When the time is right, I, the Lord, will make it happen."

Habakkuk 2:3: "For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay."

Revelation 13
King James Version
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 20-22
The Final Rebellion
7 And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison (the abyss), 8 and will come out to deceive and mislead the nations which are in the four corners of the earth—[including] Gog and Magog—to gather them together for the war; their number is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they swarmed up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints (God's people) and the beloved city [Jerusalem]; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and burning brimstone (sulfur), where the beast (Antichrist) and false teacher are also; and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.

Quote from: garee on Sat Aug 29, 2026 - 17:12:41Amo, again, "a sabbath day's journey" appears to reflect a traditional boundary—a law of the fathers concerning how far one could travel—rather than a written command from God specifying a certain number of cubits.

"Then returned they unto Jerusalem... which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey." — Acts 1:12 KJV

Acts records the expression, but where does Moses give that measured travel restriction as God's command?

That is important because Isaiah 58 does not define God's true fast by how far a person may travel.

Quite the opposite.

God rebukes the religious fast that ends in contention:

"Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high." — Isaiah 58:4

There is the wicked fist—religion demanding that its voice be heard on high.

Then God reveals His fast:

"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness... to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?" — Isaiah 58:6

And what follows?

"Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry...?" — Isaiah 58:7

There is no mileage restriction placed upon sharing that mercy.

That takes me back to the manna and the witness of two days.

FIRST DAY — PREPARATION

"To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe." — Exodus 16:23

Prepare beforehand.

SECOND DAY — EAT AND REST

"Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD." — Exodus 16:25

There is the twofold witness:

Prepare → Eat.
Gather → Rest.
Receive → Share.

And in the gathering:

"He that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack." — Exodus 16:18

Paul later applies that very manna principle to one person's abundance supplying another person's need:

"That now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want." — 2 Corinthians 8:14

Then Hebrews reveals the gospel contained within the historical lesson:

"For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them." — Hebrews 4:2

And:

"For we which have believed do enter into rest." — Hebrews 4:3

So I see the ceremonial Sabbath as a witness of two:

The first day prepares the provision.
The next day receives, eats, and rests in that provision.

Isaiah 58 then shows the fruit of that rest: break the yoke, care for the afflicted, and deal thy bread to the hungry.

No rabbinical measurement can determine how far God's gospel rest may travel.

Christ's commission goes in exactly the opposite direction:

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." — Mark 16:15

Not: How far am I permitted to go?

But: Go into all the world.

The temporal ceremonial shadow had its appointed boundaries.

The eternal gospel rest is to be shared with the world.

I have no idea what your response is even addressing. My point was simple. The seventh day sabbath is the only day referred to specifically as God's sabbath and therefore day in scripture. No such title is ever attributed to Sunday or the first day of the week. The application is therefore extra biblical.

Exod 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exod 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Deut 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my Sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them, neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. 21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. 23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezek 22: 8 Thou hast despised mine holy things, and hast profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 22: 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Ezek 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

Ezek 44:24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.

Neh 9:13-14 13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: 14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mrk 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:3 And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him; 4 How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? 5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Quote from: pppp on Sun Aug 30, 2026 - 06:11:11Amo, you have written ...''So, just exactly who do you think has been ........then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?
Firstly the persecution that Jews & Christians have faced is because of Satan & his accomplices.

Revelation 12
.....7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him....
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Secondly, whatever has been written in Scripture is the Word of God Himself, which will certainly & surely come true.
And there should be no misinterpretations, additions or subtractions from it.

Deuteronomy 4:2: "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you."
Proverbs 30:5-6: "Every word of God is flawless... Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."

Amo, you have replied -And if such will convert all the Jews at some point in the future because of persecution, then why hasn't it done such in the many past persecutions of Jews and Christians?

Next, Scripture clearly states that only when the Satan sends the False teacher & the antichrist,
& they along with Satan begin to persecute humanity & the Jews,
will Our Beloved Jesus Christ come & defeat all three who are unholy,
& then the Jews will believe in The Blessed Messiah.
Amen.
This has been clearly given in Scripture & whatever God has ordained will be fulfilled, in His divine timing.
Amen.

Revelation 13, Revelation 20-22

Ecclesiastes 3:1: "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens."

Isaiah 60:22: "When the time is right, I, the Lord, will make it happen."

Habakkuk 2:3: "For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay."

I'm not adding anything Holy Scripture itself does not teach. The Church, those in Christ, are the true Israel of God since the establishment of the New Covenant. Which is composed of Jews, Gentiles, and all others who have chosen to be in Christ Jesus our Lord. The term that all Israel will be saved is applicable to all of them, but it is not applicable to ethnic Jews who remain outside of Christ. That is to say literal Israel of the flesh, for only those who have chosen to  be of the spirit and not the flesh, can saved. Reborn of the spirit, and not the flesh. Our views of just exactly who the New covenant Israel represents, are apparently different.

Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

(All that I've written here is just generally & not directed towards anyone or any group in particular)

Amo I've read your replies & I didn't say that you are adding anything Holy Scripture itself does not teach.
Regarding your next reply which you gave.
What is a doctrine- its simple a set of ideas or theories.
By divided doctrines or distractions,
I simply meant a set of theories or ideas, given by people only, which does not include Scripture.
The True Religious Doctrine is the Word of God given in the Holy Bible.

What I meant generally, was that people just misinterpret the Word of God either purposely or because they don't understand the true meaning.
Next, I was reading on the internet,
was that people have started to add or subtract to Scripture,
which is not allowed.
Some have also started to teach other believers things which
have been taken from other theories.

Another thing which has started for quite sometime now,
is people stating that Satan was not a fallen angel but a good one.
And that there is some other Maker according to them.

These fake theories are being given by people who are followers of Satan, just to divide Christians & so that Satan can finally take over the Throne of God & become king of the earth,
which he can never do.
Besides Satan is full of negatives & only causes darkness & destruction on the earth,
thus proving that he is a fallen angel indeed.

Next, there can be differences of opinions of ideas or views, amongst believers,
That is okay,
But Scripture is not contradictory & if some people inspired by Satan cause differences on purpose, this is not correct.

Differences in opinion is okay as long as these can be sorted out & bring unity amongst all the believers,
& one thing that should be kept in mind & is that the Scripture for all believers is the authentic Word of God,
Which is true, righteous, trustworthy & full of light.

So, not understanding the Scripture sometimes can cause healthy discussions
Or even differences,
But through correct interpretation & understanding,
These differences can be resolved,
Thus leading to greater unity amongst believers.

And there can be unity amongst believers when they finally realize that the truth is in Christ & in His Word.
And He is the Head of the Church & the true God for all believers of Christianity,
& this is important,
because all believers are meant to serve Christ & not human masters,
Amen.

Romans 12:4-5
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Romans 12:5
So we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.


Acts 4:32
Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, believers & family in Christ, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Philippians 2:2
Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

Moving on to -

Quote

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE ROMANS

CHAP. IV.—ALLOW ME TO FALL A PREY TO THE WILD BEASTS.

I write to all the Churches, and impress on them all, that I shall willingly die for God, unless ye hinder me. I beseech of you not to show an unseasonable good-will towards me. Suffer me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose instrumentality it will be granted me to attain to God. I am the wheat of God, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God. Rather entice the wild beasts, that they may become my tomb, and may leave nothing of my body; so that when I have fallen asleep [in death], I may not be found troublesome to any one. Then shall I be a true disciple of Jesus Christ, when the world shall not see so much as my body. Entreat the Lord for me, that by these instruments I may be found a sacrifice to God. I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you. They were apostles of Jesus Christ, but I am the very least [of believers]: they were free, as the servants of God; while I am, even until now, a servant. But when I suffer, I shall be the freed-man of Jesus Christ, and shall rise again emancipated in Him. And now, being in bonds for Him, I learn not to desire anything worldly or vain.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 75.

Nobody will be granted salvation by becoming food for wild beasts. Salvation is in Christ alone, not the belly of wild beasts. Nor does our Lord demand any such thing from His Church, but only warned His own that they would be persecuted as He was in this world. Such persecution though, is motivated by the evil one, not demanded by God as a means of salvation for those who might become the victims of the evil one or his minions. Why would any authentic Christian pray that another might be eaten alive by wild animals. Why would any authentic Christian ask others to pray that they would be eaten alive by wild animals. There is something wrong with the picture presented above.

Asking your brothers and sisters to pray that you would have the fortitude from God to stand for the truth unto even death if need be is one thing. Having a death wish by way of being eaten alive by wild animals as a means of one's salvation is another altogether. It is disturbing enough to have such a desire oneself, let alone asking your Christian brothers and sisters to pray for such a death for you as well. Asking them not to intercede for you with God or man, because such will be your salvation. Many people have been unjustly murdered, who were not saved because of such. Nor will anyone ever be saved by such, but in Christ Jesus alone. The spiritual sacrifice to and in Christ Jesus is salvation, not a literal one. The latter having no value unto salvation, without the former being firmly established first. Nor is it, or should it be, or is it required of God, that a literal horrible death must take place unto salvation. Save God Himself determine such unto the glory and honor of His name. It is not a matter which is up to us the decide. Nor do I believe a healthy mind set or witness, as though true Christians should seek such things, but by our willingness in subjection to the word of God alone, over and above the world or dictates of fallen humanity.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE ROMANS

CHAP. IV.—ALLOW ME TO FALL A PREY TO THE WILD BEASTS.



Saint Ignatius of Antioch wanted to be martyred because he believed that suffering & dying for the Christian faith allowed him to take part in the redemptive suffering of Jesus.

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
1 Peter 2:21

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.
Philippians 3:10


Saint Ignatius called himself God's wheat, & wanted to be ground by the wild beasts as this  grinding would turn him into the "pure bread of Christ",

& wished that the beasts left nothing of his physical body
so that he would not be a burden or cause a shrine to be made
& believed that a true disciple was completely hidden in Christ even if the world could not see his remains.

He also believed that when he would suffer & be the freed-man of Jesus Christ, he would rise again emancipated in Him.

For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:5

He also stated that being in chains he learns not to desire anything worldly or vain.

But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened."
1 Peter 3:14

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.
Philippians 1:29

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Romans 8:18

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
Romans 8:35

Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 10:39

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:25-26
Amen.

Quote from: pppp on Sat Sep 05, 2026 - 16:33:58THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE ROMANS

CHAP. IV.—ALLOW ME TO FALL A PREY TO THE WILD BEASTS.



Saint Ignatius of Antioch wanted to be martyred because he believed that suffering & dying for the Christian faith allowed him to take part in the redemptive suffering of Jesus.

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
1 Peter 2:21

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.
Philippians 3:10


Saint Ignatius called himself God's wheat, & wanted to be ground by the wild beasts as this  grinding would turn him into the "pure bread of Christ",

& wished that the beasts left nothing of his physical body
so that he would not be a burden or cause a shrine to be made
& believed that a true disciple was completely hidden in Christ even if the world could not see his remains.

He also believed that when he would suffer & be the freed-man of Jesus Christ, he would rise again emancipated in Him.

For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:5

He also stated that being in chains he learns not to desire anything worldly or vain.

But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened."
1 Peter 3:14

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.
Philippians 1:29

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
Romans 8:18

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
Romans 8:35

Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 10:39

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:25-26
Amen.

Pretty amazing that you know exactly what was in Ignatius mind, and therefore his reasoning for what he stated, apart from that he himself explained. I know no such things regarding him, or anyone else, for that matter. Just comparing is own testimonies with Holy Scripture, and or examples of our Lord and His apostles. Then sharing my thoughts concerning such.

Quote

CHAP. V.—I DESIRE TO DIE.

From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, being bound to ten leopards, I mean a band of soldiers, who, even when they receive benefits, show themselves all the worse. But I am the more instructed by their injuries [to act as a disciple of Christ]; "yet am I not thereby justified." May I enjoy the wild beasts that are prepared for me; and I pray that they may be found eager to rush upon me, which also I will entice to devour me speedily, and not deal with me as with some, whom, out of fear, they have not touched. But if they be unwilling to assail me, I will compel them to do so. Pardon me [in this]: I know what is for my benefit. Now I begin to be a disciple, and have no desire after anything visible or invisible, that I may attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let breakings, tearings, and separations of bones; let cutting off of members; let bruising to pieces of the whole body; and let the very torment of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 76.

More concerning Ignatius' seeming death wish. Salvation it would seem, by a literal death of martyrdom. I wonder, is martyrdom really martyrdom, if it is what one truly desires above all else? Does Holy Scripture call us to seek out, pray for, dwell upon, and ask our brethren to participate as well, with our martyrdom?

Quote

CHAP. VI.—BY DEATH I SHALL ATTAIN TRUE LIFE.

All the ends of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, shall profit me nothing. It is better for me to die for the sake of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. "For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?" I long after the Lord, the Son of the true God and Father, even Jesus Christ. Him I seek, who died for us and rose again. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me in attaining to life; for Jesus is the life of believers. Do not wish to keep me in a state of death, for life without Christ is death. While I desire to belong to God, do not ye give me over to the world. Suffer me to obtain pure light: when I have gone thither, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to be an imitator of the passion of Christ, my God. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.

Ignatius of Antioch, "The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans," in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 76.

Perhaps the distortion I sense in Ignatius' preoccupation with dying, even being torn apart by wild beasts, is exactly the difference between his own attitude and that of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's, immediately prior to the above referred to passion of Christ.

Mat 26:37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. 40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

Our Lord did not have a death wish. He became one of us, and as such, He desired to live and escape humiliation. Neither being that which one should naturally desire, but rather accept by way of sacrifice, should the Lord require such of us for the glory and honor of His name. Nor did, does, or will anyone of us ever understand just how necessary His death was for our salvation, than our Savior. Nevertheless, He went through with the ultimate sacrifice for us. AMEN.

"The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans,"a violation no adding to the perfect

Ignatius is long gone

The Combined Work — His Labor of Love

The sufferings unto death Not dead-- Christ cannot die the demonstration of the combined work of Christ the Holy Father and the Son of man Jesus—two working as one.

The visible suffering of the Son of man points us to the unseen work of the Holy Spirit. The pouring out is a parable of Spirit life being poured upon dying flesh and blood. The eternal Spirit does not become dying flesh; rather, the Father demonstrates His power and will through the Son of man Jesus.

Jesus said:"The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." — Matthew 26:41

And again:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing." — John 6:63

That helps us understand the earlier command to eat His flesh and drink His blood. Christ Himself directs us away from a merely fleshly interpretation and toward the Spirit: "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

The drinking of the blood and eating of the flesh therefore points, in my understanding, to receiving by faith the labor of love Christ pours out upon born-again believers.

God even gives us a measure of that same faith by which we may please Him. Jesus sometimes said, "O ye of little faith." Little does not mean none. Even that little faith is sufficient for us to look away from ourselves and toward the One who supplies the power.

That brings us again to the testimony of two:

#1 — "Let there be."
The command and power proceed from the Holy Father.

#2 — "It was good."
What God commands, God performs and declares good.

The law of powerful faith

That is the faith relationship I see demonstrated in the Dynamic Duo: the unseen Holy Father and the visible Son of man Jesus, two working as one. And through that demonstration we learn that eternal life does not come from literally consuming dying flesh and blood.

"The flesh profited nothing."

The spiritual food is the Word received by faith—the labor of love poured out by Christ upon His born-again family.

Saint Ignatius of Antioch
CHAP. V.—I DESIRE TO DIE.
From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts, both by land and sea, both by night and day, .....Now I begin to be a disciple, and have no desire after anything visible or invisible, that I may attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; ....; and let the very torment of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.


Saint Ignatius of Antioch had a true soul.
He had reached a phase in his life,
where he had no intention to enjoy the earthly life ,
rather he wished to give it up because his love was for Christ & to be in Heaven, rather than save his life.
He lived by his soul.
And that was the true way of living for him.

For him earthly comforts or saving his life anymore was of no use,
as he had wholly given himself to Christ.
Every human being is given just one life,
& no one wants to lose it,
but when a person surrenders his life to Christ by his own will,
he shows devotion to Christ.

And Saint Ignatius of Antioch had an undivided loyalty & a deep love & commitment towards the Christian religion & Christ,
& this was shown through his martyrdom.

Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Galatians 5:24: "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its ... desires."

Galatians 6:14: "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
"Romans 6:8: "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."

Saint Ignatius of Antioch
CHAP. VI.—BY DEATH I SHALL ATTAIN TRUE LIFE.

All the ends of the world, and all the kingdoms of this earth, shall profit me nothing. It is better for me to die for the sake of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. "For what is a man profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?" I long after the Lord, the Son of the true God and Father, even Jesus Christ. Him I seek, who died for us and rose again. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me in attaining to life; for Jesus is the life of believers. Do not wish to keep me in a state of death, for life without Christ is death. While I desire to belong to God, do not ye give me over to the world. Suffer me to obtain pure light: when I have gone thither, I shall indeed be a man of God. Permit me to be an imitator of the passion of Christ, my God. If any one has Him within himself, let him consider what I desire, and let him have sympathy with me, as knowing how I am straitened.



For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Matthew 16:26 (KJV): "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

John 5:24 – "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

John 11:25-26 – "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.'"

Galatians 2:20 – "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."

Philippians 1:21 – "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 – "For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality... 'Death is swallowed up in victory.'"

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. ......
Romans 6:5-6

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death.
Philippians 3:10

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6   

Quote from: Amo on Sat Aug 22, 2026 - 10:51:41Well, authenticity regarding the writings we are examining which many consider those of the "Church Fathers", is not the topic at hand. Which there are a great many questions and doubts concerning. Nevertheless, since they are considered and put forth as authentic by many, I have chosen to examine their agreement with and or addition to Holy Scripture or not, rather than wrestle with actual authenticity or not. Which is of course, an important subject as well.

I wasn't actually trying to call into question the authenticity of Ignatius.  There seems to be a consensus that he truly wrote in the late 1st century.

I sincerely didn't realize that the teaching of angelic orders existed so early within Christianity.  The gnostic Valentinus taught such a thing in the mid-2nd century, and I thought he was the first.  Might be time to re-examine some of that.