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Now clearly we have Christians who hold that we dont decide to become believers, but it is God who makes that decision to convert us. However, I was surprised to come across this with Lutherans, who hold that human free will is bound by sin, making salvation entirely dependent on God's grace rather than human choice. The answer I got from a Lutheran was not entirely clear to me at the time, as they said:

"Lutherans don't believe in decision theology..(that a person is "born again" at the moment they make a conscious decision to accept Jesus Christ) We believe that God predestines who will have eternal life but does not predestine them to Hell. Whoever believes when they die are the elect."

They seem to be caught between claiming scripture affirms that God predestines people when it comes to salvation, but then reject it for perdition claiming the Bible doesnt explicitly teach that God predestines people to Hell. So in this view it appears to hold that only eternal life is open to predestination, that clearly needs to be looked at as it leaves a open void for the fate of the wicked.

Now if we look, Gods Word tells us that at a certain point the saints will be sealed in righteousness for eternal life which the Holy Spirit has transformed them and the wicked will stay in their current state of wickedness. We see the verses:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And Christ made clear that it will be such as the time of Noah when God allowed time for the people to heed the message and be saved.
Matthew 24:37-38
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

So this clearly causes a problem for the view holding that predestination is set for all mankind, whether saint of sinner. The particular problem with declaring that God has predestined all is that it takes out what God says is a close of probation for both saints and sinners where their fate is decided. One can see that this is negated if God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost with predestination. So its a problem, as clearly every human's probation closes when they die, for the simple reason that they no longer have the opportunity to make a choice whether to accept God's grace. Those who die having accepted His grace close their probation on God's side, and will receive the gift of eternal life. Those who fail to accept God's grace during the time they are alive, no longer will have that opportunity when they die, and are left to their fate, basically what they have chosen. So its clear that predestination has issues with what Gods Word shows us.

As I see it, the Calvinists and Arminians start from the same error: they assume that God pre-destines individuals.

God has predestined a group.  The OT calls it "Israel."  The NT calls it "the church."

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Sep 14, 2026 - 00:09:21As I see it, the Calvinists and Arminians start from the same error: they assume that God pre-destines individuals.

God has predestined a group.  The OT calls it "Israel."  The NT calls it "the church."

So you do not feel that God predestined Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jerimiah, Job, Isaiah, the prophets, John the Baptist, even Judas... and multiple many more to have done what they did?

Quote from: Rella on Mon Sep 14, 2026 - 08:26:40So you do not feel that God predestined Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jerimiah, Job, Isaiah, the prophets, John the Baptist, even Judas... and multiple many more to have done what they did?