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Quote from: Dave... on Tue Sep 22, 2026 - 11:39:31...........Romans 4:4-7 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;

Romans 3:24-26 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

This is what the OT sacrificial system did, it covered sin. But it didn't take it away. God did not ignore this sin, but delayed His wrath by covering it until Jesus died in the cross to officially atone for that sin.

What difference does it make if those of the Old Covenant were forgiven by faith in the grace of God in the sacrifice for sin to come, or for us today who are forgiven by faith in the grace of God in having now accomplished that very sacrifice for us in the past? Are the promises of God not sure enough to place one's faith in, before their complete fulfillment in the possible future? To the contrary, forgiveness, conversion, and righteousness have always been by faith in the sure word of God and or His prophecies.

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

It is not over yet. There is still a great deal for the people of God to have and exercise faith in.

Quote from: Amo on Yesterday at 09:30:27What difference does it make if those of the Old Covenant were forgiven by faith in the grace of God in the sacrifice for sin to come, or for us today who are forgiven by faith in the grace of God in having now accomplished that very sacrifice for us in the past? Are the promises of God not sure enough to place one's faith in, before their complete fulfillment in the possible future? To the contrary, forgiveness, conversion, and righteousness have always been by faith in the sure word of God and or His prophecies.

It is not over yet. There is still a great deal for the people of God to have and exercise faith in.

Hey Amo

It's important because a lot of false theologies hinge on the idea that the promise was realized when it was made. This idea is mainly created to protect the Calvinist idea that man must be born again to believe. And that to protect an unbiblical idea of total depravity and how our fallen state is overcome by faith to receive the life by having it already. They need for the OT to be the same as the NT. Coincidently, so does Catholicism.    Just sayin'...

Quote from: Dave... on Yesterday at 12:37:48Hey Amo

It's important because a lot of false theologies hinge on the idea that the promise was realized when it was made. This idea is mainly created to protect the Calvinist idea that man must be born again to believe. And that to protect an unbiblical idea of total depravity and how our fallen state is overcome by faith to receive the life by having it already. They need for the OT to be the same as the NT. Coincidently, so does Catholicism.    Just sayin'...

The Old and New Covenants are two parts of the everlasting covenant. That prior to Jesus Christ, and that after Jesus Christ. Salvation during either covenant was and is by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ alone. The former by types and symbols, the latter by the reality they only represented.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.  2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.