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Just saw it tonight.  It was powerful and brutal.  During the scourging, I kept thinking, \"By His stripes we are healed\".

I do have a question or two.  I know about the character playing Satan, but what was the \"child\" Satan was carrying during Jesus' scourging?  Does anyone know what that was supposed to represent, or what it was supposed to be?  I have no idea about that.

Also, the \"creature\" that was with Judas under the bridge.  What was that?

The \"kids\" that tormented Judas were also a bit strange.

These questions certainly did not detract from the picture.  I was absolutely floored by it, but what He went through.  THrough it all, I kept thinking that it was for me.  Very, very humbling.

Anyway, thought I would start a thread with questions for anyone who may know.  

THanks,

In Him,

Jonesy

Jones...

My wife asked me the exact same questions through the movie....

I don't think those images represented anything other than the curse upon Judas...

I think Gibson tried to come up with images that would show the reviling nature of Satan... what could have been more reviling than an evil child?

I think its just symbolism of evil....

It definitely made me uncomfortable (and my wife as well)

BTW Jones... I can't help but think this may have something to do with Gibson's choice of Judas's plight...

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Acts 1
16and said, \"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus-- 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry.\"
18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20\"For,\" said Peter, \"it is written in the book of Psalms,
  \" 'May his place be deserted;
      let there be no one to dwell in it,'[4] and,
  \" 'May another take his place of leadership.'[5] [/quote]

My husband and I saw the movie on Tuesday night and had many of the same questions.  What we decided was:

1.  Satan mocked Mary, the mother of the Lord, by suckling and  comforting a demon child.  This moment happened in the film when Satan appeared to Mary.

2.  Judas awoke to find himself beside a dead ass...one with a  sardonic smile.

3.  I was under the impression that the children were overcome by demons to torment Judas.

Just some ideas.

And didn't you just love the one tear of God?  It was so beautiful.

I've heard that some of the material involving Satan comes from some visions from a 17th or 18th century German nun and mystic (I forget her name) and that some of it comes from the writings of Teresa of Avila.

Won't see the movie until Friday night.

BTW was Satan laughing when Christ died or was he screaming?

I thought he was screaming but my wife thought he was laughing?

I viewed that as a scream because it happened right after the \"It is accomplished\" statement was made.  He accomplished what Satan had tried to stop him from doing in the Garden.

Pele,

Your thoughts about Satan's \"baby\" are very thought provoking.  

The creature that I was referring to was when Juda was under the bridge, the guards had knocked Jesus off and he saw Judas there.  Judas backed away, and a creature like a howler monkey screamed at him.

I think maybe Mel was really going for the thought that the presence of evil was all around during those hours.

J

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (PeleGirl @ Feb. 26 2004,2:39)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]1.  Satan mocked Mary, the mother of the Lord, by suckling and  comforting a demon child.  This moment happened in the film when Satan appeared to Mary.

2.  Judas awoke to find himself beside a dead ass...one with a  sardonic smile.

3.  I was under the impression that the children were overcome by demons to torment Judas.

Just some ideas.

And didn't you just love the one tear of God?  It was so beautiful.[/quote]
Unless I am remembering incorrectly, only Christ saw Satan carrying the \"baby\". If that's true, then he was not mocking Mary.

That said, I have no idea what it could mean, other than just another way of showing the evil embodied in Satan.

As for the children, I don't think they were children at all. Note how they all disappeared at once.

No, they were demons made to LOOK like children.

The torment of Judas was the most terrifying part of the movie. Even the torture (not any worse than Saving Private Ryan, IMHO) didn't come close.

For the record: After this movie, I believe Judas is in heaven right now, fully forgiven and in a place of wonders we can't begin to imagine.

Think about it: where would we be without him?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Cliftyman @ Feb. 26 2004,4:22)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]BTW was Satan laughing when Christ died or was he screaming?

I thought he was screaming but my wife thought he was laughing?[/quote]
Definitely screaming in rage that Christ had actually pulled it off.

Serves the little (fill in explative here) right...  :angry:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Zaphod wrote:
Unless I am remembering incorrectly, only Christ saw Satan carrying the \"baby\". If that's true, then he was not mocking Mary.[/quote]
If my recollection serves me correctly, Mary also saw the devil and its \"child\" in the aforementioned scene. If the Lord wills, I will see the movie again this evening. At that time, I will try to pay close attention to that scene to make sure.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Zaphod also wrote:
For the record: After this movie, I believe Judas is in heaven right now, fully forgiven and in a place of wonders we can't begin to imagine.

Think about it: where would we be without him?[/quote]
Zaphod... Are you serious?

As a general rule, I put a lot of stock in the opinions published in First Things with regard to books, movies and the like.
If the staff of that publication think it's good, it usually is.

Nonetheless, I was skeptical when their review suggested that The Passion deserved to be discussed in the context of such classic Christian art as the Divine Comedy or the Lamentation Over the Dead Christ.    Last night, I saw the movie and I'm no longer skeptical.   I usually scoff at the idea that a movie can be \"art\", but this may be the greatest piece of art of our time.   (However, unlike James, I don't want to see it again soon.   I'm not up to it and don't know when I will be.)

With that said, I'll talk about the questions raised here and then may have some of my own comments.

Satan's baby -  Aren't we told that our Enemy is \"the Father of lies?\"   And weren't the events we watched brought about by the lies of the priests?   Could that be the symbolism?  I don't know for sure.    I don't remember for certain that we are shown Mary seeing the baby or not.  

The children chasing Judas - were they demons?   Did Satan cause them to appear to be demons?   Or was it that the innocent who Christ told us to become like (children) couldn't tolerate evil in their midst?

I'm pretty sure none of us Campbellites are going to get that symbolism without reading or reading about the mystical visions that Gibson used.   If I can find time, I may look into that.

As to the reaction of Jewish people - I'm not surprised that they don't like it.   Of course, there are innumerable sympatheic Jewish characters - Simon of Cyrene, Veronica who wiped Christ's face, all of the people wailing and weeping as He left the city.   So anti-Semitism isn't the real problem.  The real problem is that this movie forces everyone, including Jews, to face the question - what will I do about Jesus?  A Jew who sees this movie may continue to reject Him, but he can't pretend to be ignorant about who he's rejecting.

I'm unsure whether I'm glad I saw this movie or not.   The question I asked myself last night is this:   I know that I will sin again, but how will I endure the image of the price Jesus pays for those sins?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]boringoldguy wrote:
The real problem is that this movie forces everyone, including Jews, to face the question - what will I do about Jesus?  A Jew who sees this movie may continue to reject Him, but he can't pretend to be ignorant about who he's rejecting.[/quote]
How true.
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]boringoldguy also wrote:
The question I asked myself last night is this:   I know that I will sin again, but how will I endure the image of the price Jesus pays for those sins?[/quote]
I asked myself the same question, BOG. I also have been more thoroughly disgusted in myself over the many sins that I have committed...

(By the way, I agree with your sentiments about not wanting to see the movie again soon. I had invited several members of my family prior to seeing it on Wednesday, about half of which are unbelievers. Had I not already made such a commitment to go with them, I'm pretty sure that I would not being seeing it again so soon.)

For anyone interested in knowing more about some of the symbolism, etc, you can look at the article in the Catholic Encyclopia (on line) about Anne Katherine Emmerich (1774 - 1824), nun, mystic and stigmatic, upon whose writings some of this is based.

You can also do a Yahoo search on \"dolorous passion.\"
It will take you to the text of a book where Emmerich's visions are recorded.  It's very long, but just skimming over it I found the incident on the bridge, the confrontation with Satan in the garden and Simon of Cyrene's protest against the soldiers' treatment of Christ.

Here are some comments I shared with members of the worshipforum.com  gang.

I just saw it (The Passion) this afternoon and found it to be a very well done movie. In my opinion, the disclaimers of graphic violence were overdone. This was no more graphic in terms of violence than many other movies of the last 20 years.

The languages were very compelling. The design, costumes, settings etc. were excellent. The story was what I expected and the way it was interpreted in terms of the commotion of action, grittiness of the scenes, and the overall tension were exactly what I envisioned.

I liked the way the characters were given certain inferential lines to show that this was a human event that affected them very differently. I thought the relationship between Mary and Jesus was a tad overdone...but this was to be expected of a Catholic belief that the Virgin Mary is to be revered. This was especially accentuated on the Via Dolorosa when Jesus draws His strength to go on from looking at Mary.

Was it anti-semetic? I suppose a devout Jew would make that case. The movie depicted more anti-Caiaphas than any other character save the devil himself.

More questions:
Why do we always infer from doubting Thomas that there were still holes in Jesus hands and feet? Do we really know that? If Jesus rose from the dead, wouldn't He have made a FULL recovery? Someone educate me.

Was this a miracle death? Does the water and blood from Jesus side medically indicate that His heart was stopped before He sufficated?

Would we have been saved if Jesus had died on the way to the cross? (Theologians will reject this hypothetical question I suppose).

Why is there such an uproar about this film? Don't the Jews admit there is a historical record of a man named Jesus of Nazareth being crucified? Isn't this a fact of history?

Tears? Nope. My Lord died for me and was risen on the third day. I rejoice.

$6 for the matinee. $10 for the hotdog, popcorn (with butter), and diet coke. Pearlridge Mall Muliplex Theaters.

Blessings
Brad

Here's some thoughts:

1.  My husband and I thought about the words Jesus spoke to the Pharisee's(I believe) with regard to the Satan and baby metaphor :\"you make them twice the sons of hell\".

2.  At one point the bible tells us that Satan entered Judas, was that Satan leaving Judas under the bridge?

3.  What about the raven on the thief's cross.  I thought that it showed how the thief was so blinded by Satan(raven) that he could not see the Christ right there before him.

4.  One of the hardest things for me was the Peter scenes.  The flashback to Peter saying \"Lord, I would never leave you.  I would die for you.\" then the denial.  I wept because I could see myself and I didn't like what I saw.

5.  The flashbacks as a whole where soooooo powerful.  I absolutely loved seeing my Lord portrayed with so much human emotion.  He, after all, was a human.  Sinless but human.

G

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (James Rondon @ Feb. 28 2004,10:38)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Zaphod also wrote:
For the record: After this movie, I believe Judas is in heaven right now, fully forgiven and in a place of wonders we can't begin to imagine.

Think about it: where would we be without him?[/quote]
Zaphod... Are you serious?[/quote]
Yes, I am, and I don't know why.

I hold betrayal and treason to be among the worst crimes a person can commit, and yet I find myself wondering if this man, who undoubtedly betrayed Christ, did so with actual evil in his heart, and if after the deed was done didn't realize the extent of his failure and repent.

Yes, I know he killed himself. Yes, I know the remainder of Scripture refers to him as a traitor.

Still, I can't see Christ throwing him into hell. It just doesn't work for me. Not in his case.

:shrugsmiley:

What can I tell you?

Zaphod,
It's an interesting thought and I've caused a ruckus in more than one Bible study group by suggesting the same thing.
I've yet to hear a sound argument against Jesus' capacity for forgiveness.

Richard

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Zaphod,
It's an interesting thought and I've caused a ruckus in more than one Bible study group by suggesting the same thing.
I've yet to hear a sound argument against Jesus' capacity for forgiveness.

Richard[/quote]
Yeah, well..... I've noticed that the people who get their hackles up the highest when discussing the Scriptures are those who are the least humble before them.

It's one of the reasons I've given up on the political forum on this board. The absolute.......garbage (I won't post the noun I REALLY want to use)........being defended from a \"biblical\" standpoint is enough to make me want to violently puke.

I continue to believe that when we die, we will be absolutely STUNNED to find who is in heaven and who isn't. Stunned into incredulity, I tell you.

Dear Lord, I hate heat! Have mercy on me!

:help:   Hey To change the subject a bit, I have not seen the movie, and I have heard from some that have seen it, some interesting observations.
1 its brutal and not fit for children to see.
2 its not the whole story, what about the victory, when christ rises from the dead.etc.
3Is this not satans hour? and greatest triump, although its not really, but its his best oppertunity.Is this not the dark side of the work grace.When evil seems to have its boast?
I question if this is really a good movie?
 Yes I value the work of Jesus and his sufferings, but I dont want to relive it either. I donot have a desire to see this movie, it rather makes me cringe.But I thank God so much more that Jesus is alive for ever more!! and that death and hell and the devil could not stop him!! from redeeming us. :clap:
Philippians 4 v 8

It's not the whole story - you can't depict that in detail in two hours, and that was not Mel's purpose.  Instead, his purpose was to expand on the verse in Isaiah that says, \"By his stripes, we are healed.\"

By the way, at the end the resurrection is shown.

Kevin

I would agree with the notion of its brutality.  My daughter will be 10 this summer, and I personally will not let her watch it now.  SHe will though, as she gets older.

As for it being Satan's hour, the film, to me, does not depict that.  Satan tries to tempt Jesus not to go through with the plan, but Jesus chooses the Father's will.  Plus, when Jesus utters \"It is accomplished (finished)\", Satan cries out in torment, knowing that the work of our salvation has been done, despite his (its) best effort.

I totally agree with Spurly here as well.  Mel wanted to show a certain time of the life of Christ, and he did it well.

I would recommend it.  Brutal, yes, but intensely powerful.

Jonesy

Brad wrote:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Why do we always infer from doubting Thomas that there were still holes in Jesus hands and feet? Do we really know that? If Jesus rose from the dead, wouldn't He have made a FULL recovery? Someone educate me.
[/quote]

John 20:27 And then He said to Thomas, \"Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put in in my side. Stop doubting and believe.\"

I always believed that this was the holes in His hands and side that He proved to them that He was who He said.

Memmy :)

You're correct Memmy.  Christ rose from the dead; He didn't travel back in time to before the crucifixion.    

There's a Christian children's home not too far from here.    Some of the older kids (teenagers)snuck into the movie (they're not allowed to go see R rated movies and said they were going to see something else - the home was considering an exception for this movie but was waiting until the director could see it and make a decision.)
So these kids - all from disastrous family backgrounds and with all kinds of baggage in their pasts - go see the movie.
And since they saw it on Saturday, two of these young women have asked to be baptized.   We saw one of the baptisms last night.

BOG, This is awesome news!!

Thanks for sharing!  :clap:


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And since they saw it on Saturday, two of these young women have asked to be baptized.   We saw one of the baptisms last night.[/quote]

:applause: Memmy :D

BOG,  Thanks for the sharing the news about the young women being baptized.  Very encouraging and uplifting news!  Praise God from Whom all blessings flow! :noddingsmiley:

I finally got to see the movie.  One of my favorite scenes was the thief on the cross when he said I belong here but you don't and yet you can forgive these people while they are torturing you.  That really brought it home for me.  Also, one thing that dawned on me that I guess I knew but didn't really untill I saw the movie and that was the fact that Satan had absolutely no doubt who Jesus was.  He was able to create doubt in the people who Jesus was but he himself knew who He was and just had some hope he wouldn't follow through but that hope ended when the task is completed and he screams at the end.  I thought that was very effective.

I've seen the movie now three times... The part that really gets to me every time is when Jesus, after having been severly scourged, and now carrying His cross to Golgotha, falls to the ground in front of His mother. She runs to Him, and He looks at her and says, \"Behold, Mother, I make all things new...\". That line really gets me... every single time.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I've seen the movie now three times... The part that really gets to me every time is when Jesus, after having been severly scourged, and now carrying His cross to Golgotha, falls to the ground in front of His mother. She runs to Him, and He looks at her and says, \"Behold, Mother, I make all things new...\". That line really gets me... every single time.[/quote]
this was the scene in the movie that broke me. somehow i had managed to \"keep it together\" through the scourging, but when Mary runs to her fallen son, after having the flashback of him as a boy, and he looks up at her and manages to say, \"Behold, Mother, I make all things new.\" i had to stuff my fist in my mouth to keep from sobbing aloud.
of the many visual memories i have of the movie, that is the one that continues to move me the most.
how could he love us so much? how could he allow wicked sinful man to punish him so? why would he do that for us...for me?
peace.
-g-

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]how could he love us so much? how could he allow wicked sinful man to punish him so? why would he do that for us...for me?
[/quote]

I know what you mean..........and for even me. :shrugsmiley:

\"Amazing Love,
how can it be?
That you my King would die for me?\"

And my response should be:

\"Amazing Love,
I know it's true.
It's my joy to honor You,
in all I do....I honor You.\"  :playingguitar:

Memmy  :D

Concerning the scene where Satan held a baby and \"lovingly\" but mockingly stroked its face, Joe Beam said this:

It seemed Satan was mocking Jesus by saying. \"Look how I am holding my child...protecting him...cradling him. Where's your father while they are beating you to death...killing you? I offered you second in command. Remember? I wouldn't have let them do this to you, but your father....whom you chose over me...has betrayed you.\"

I thought that nailed it. But that's me.

Lee

Lee, Thats makes sense to me too.

Memmy