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In winding up his sermon, our minister felt it necessary to attack the \"faith only\" idea....I guess he assumed we all knew exactly what he meant by the words \"faith only\", because he didn't define it or otherwise explain what he thought it meant.

He then quoted from James 2:17 - \"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.\" (NIV). But in the preacher's KJV, it reads \"....faith without WORKS is dead.\" The preacher then added: \"I believe this refers to the work of obedience to the command to be baptized.\"

Apparently the Apostle Paul was wrong when he said: \"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--NOT BY WORKS, so that no one can boast.\"

How could God have made it any clearer, that we are not saved by works, not works done after baptism as good deeds, and not \"the work of obedience to the command to be baptized?\" In the CoC, why are preachers so afraid of Ephesians 2, and the entire book of Galatians, and Romans 4?

I think many are afraid of those passages because they feel like they have to do something to earn their salvation.  It can't just be free, after all nothing good is free.  

Also, they may feel like if they make it to easy, people will take advantage of God.  They have a genuine love and concern for God, and don't want to see anyone do that.

Or it may be that they are just slow in coming to an understanding of the incredible grace of God.

Kevin

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]In the CoC, why are preachers so afraid of Ephesians 2, and the entire book of Galatians, and Romans 4?[/quote]
Maybe this belongs on the \"stereotypes\" thread.

I have yet to meet these fearful coC preachers.
Ephesians 2 is one of our (coC) preacher's favorites, you know, the passages they use a lot.
We've had at least three different Romans classes available in the eight or so years that I've been at this coC.
And that fear-inspiring book of Romans is the Bible Bowl of the Lad's to Leaders youth training this year, with 171 coC congregations participating.

I believe James was talking about claimed faith.  If faith is claimed and there are no actions, is it faith at all?  I don't think so.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, \"Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,\" but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
[/quote]

Its not Faith + Works.  True faith manifests works.  A claimed faith does not.

:amen:

Show me faith without works... its going to be hard...

Show me a follower of God with no faith... thats impossible

I agree with what Jerry Brooke and Cliftyman said.

I believe that we are saved by grace through our faith.  There is nothing we can do to \"earn\" that salvation.

But as a result of our faith, we will want to do \"works\", such as helping others, being forgiving, etc..  It is not to \"earn\" anything, but it is a way of the love of Christ to show itself.

Kinda like marriage.  Our marriage is a one-time rite (hopefully, anyway) that \"shows\" our commitment to our spouse.  But once we are married, we don't just go on as if we were single.  We show our spouse we love them in the way we treat them.  It is not enough to say \"hey, I married ya, didn't I?  Isn't that enough proof that I love you?\".  If we don't live in a way that shows our commitment, then the commitment doesn't really mean anything.  

Probably a poor example, but I tried :blush: .

Same as with faith and \"works\".  We don't have faith because of our works, we do works because of our faith.

I heard someone once say he used to think he had to get involved in church - worship services, living a Christian life - as \"fire insurance\" - to \"be saved\".  Now he said he wants to do these things because he is saved.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.\" (Rom. 4:5, KJV)[/quote]
I agree with Jerry... It is not Faith + Works. I believe that the verse cited above makes that clear.

As far as James' letter is concerned, notice what he says:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?...\" (Jam. 2:14a, KJV)[/quote]
This is James referring to a hypothetical situation. He talks about the \"profit\" that comes from a claimed faith that is absent of works.

Also, notice that he says:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"...and have not works...\"[/quote]
He doesn't say, \"and have some works\"... He doesn't say, \"and have little works\"... and he doesn't say, \"and have imperfect works\". This hypothetical man had only a claim to faith, with nothing to show for it. (By the way, one can also infer, whether necessarily or not, that the hypothetical man had the ability to do such works).

Next, James says:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"...can faith save him?\" (James 2:14b, KJV)[/quote]
The way that this is translated, I believe, has lent itself to a massive amount of confusion and abuse... Of course faith can save him!

The greek manuscripts have the definite article preceding the word \"faith\" in this verse. So, to translate the verse more literally, one could render it as so: \"can such faith save him?\", or, \"can this faith save him?\". What faith would that be?... The faith that has no works.

Finally, regarding James, notice what he says after talking about the \"profit\" of works, and the way that true faith is the seed for works:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]\"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.\" (Jam. 2:24, KJV)[/quote]
After saying all that was said, James begins to conclude by saying over this matter, \"Ye see then how...\"... This is how works justify (more could be said about his use of this term, as well)... Notice, he doesn't just say, \"By works a man is justified\".

As far as the latter part of that passage, someone else once said something of this nature when commenting on James and the matter of faith and works, \"We are saved by grace through faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.\" Considering the context of James chapter 2, one might also phrase it like this, \"We are saved by grace through faith alone, but the faith that saves is not one of mere profession\".

Are we saved by faith or by works?  Good question.  

Of course, to answer the question I would have to say we are saved by neither faith or by works.   God's Word is quite clear.  We are saved by God's grace.  Period.  We receive His grace - the gift of eternal life, the forgiveness of our sins, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the renewed relationship with God through His Son, the honor of being co-heirs with Christ, and so much more that our minds cannot begin to comprehend the enormity of His grace - through the means He has given and that is through faith.  I can't imagine anyone bringing any work, even their own faith, to God and trying to measure that against the work of the Lord Jesus in His perfect suffering and death.  We are only saved by God's grace.

Let me add.  We can only trust God that He will be faithful to His promises.  Afterall, all the good works we do in loving obedience to our merciful Savior, won't get us an inch closer to Heaven.  Only God's grace allows us to join Him and commune with Him and to have an inimate relationship with Him.  And we enter into that relationship by and through the faith He graciously gives us.  You see, it's really all about God.  Our discussion if it's our faith or our works or the combo of the two is really not the discussion because it mistakingly places the focus onto us.  Jesus did everything.  

So, let me ask this question:  does anyone here who professes to be saved have any doubt whatsoever of their salvation?   If so, would you care to share what burdens your confidence and diminishes your hope?  In light of the subject of this thread, I thought this might be a needed accompaniment to this topic.

Blessings.

Steve

I agree Steve, the most spiritual among us on their best day is nothing more than a lost sinner without the Grace of God.  Works are in response to salvation not the other way around.

trustinghim

It's funny, James says, 'faith without works is dead', and romans says, 'blessed is the man whom God imparts righteousness apart from works.'


so i can be righteous without doing anything, but it's a dead faith and will never get me to heaven?

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (stan peck @ Mar. 09 2004,11:06)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It's funny, James says, 'faith without works is dead', and romans says, 'blessed is the man whom God imparts righteousness apart from works.'


so i can be righteous without doing anything, but it's a dead faith and will never get me to heaven?[/quote]
Nope Stan.  God imparts righteousness totally apart from our works.  Righteousness is what we need to stand in a right standing with God.  However, the faith that God looks for in order to impute righteousness to us, if it is real, will show itself in works.  Is that so difficult to understand?

Kevin

A simple explanation that I heard is that you are saved by grace through faith, and James just goes on to define faith.

Interesting that both Paul and James use Abraham, which gives that idea a bit of creedence to me.

J

Interesting though that Paul and James look at different aspects of Abraham's life.  Paul in Romans 4:3 says Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness, quoting from Gen 15:6, which was before even the birth of Ishmael.  James 2 refers to Abraham's obedience of the command to sacrifice Isaac in Gen 22 saying that Abraham's obedience fulfilled the saying Paul quotes in Romans.  But it was credited to Abraham as righteousness when he believed.  

I think this underscores what has been said above -- faith justifies, but faith is fulfilled in obedience.  The converse is described in Heb. 3 where the writer argues that disobedience demonstrates unbelief.

I agree with Steve, it is by God's grace we are saved.  But the promise is to those who believe.  By his grace, God has extended the promise to those who have faith in him.

I think it's interesting that Paul and James use the same verse to make apparently opposite points...

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Rom 4:2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? \"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.\"[/quote]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]James 2:23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, \"Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,\" and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.[/quote]

This is just another example of why it is vital to look at the context of a verse instead of yanking phrases and forming doctrine around them, to the exclusion of others.

:wave: Hi everyone,
Since this is a topic that seperates the believers that Acts2:38 is the only water baptism acceptable from the baptized believers that understand that baptism is only an act of faith,it is important to discuss..wow..long sentence,not structured correctly..sorry.

Anyway,my 2 cents about the matter is that Peter explained where our righteousness comes from in Acts15.

He witnessed to the Jerusalem church that salvation comes to us all by grace..Acts15:11

He witnessed that God knowing our hearts purifies us through faith..Acts15:8-9

He failed to mention baptism at this time...but in describing Cornelious's salvation (whose example he was using to show the Jerusalem church where salvation comes),he describes that he preached the message of the gospel so they might believe and after believing,God accepted them by evidence...the gift of the HS....Acts15:8-9

We all know that baptism followed the gift of the HS..Acts10:47...but God had already purified them by faith before the act.Baptism is very important but Peter said they were purified by grace through faith in Acts !5:8,9,11......So maybe since Peter explained salvation a little clearer in Acts 15,maybe a different understanding of Acts2:38 is in order.

I'm too dumb to figure it out myself but faith seems to be the avenue that God gives us access to grace....not neglecting the act of faith called baptism.

God bless,Peck

On the theory that being \"saved\" makes you my brother, see this quote from Al Maxey:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Who are my brethren? Very simply -- those who are in Christ! Wherever my Father has a child, I have a brother or sister!

Brotherhood is not determined by pattern, but by paternity. Our unity is not based on preferences, perceptions and practices, but on a Person (Jesus Christ).

As for what places one IN Christ Jesus, I believe the Scriptures inform us it is demonstrated faith in response to God's grace. It is not faith alone, but faith shown.

That demonstration of faith is via repentance of heart, confession of lips and life, and baptism of the body (which symbolizes our death, burial and resurrection with Christ to a new life).

ALL those who have done this are my brethren.[/quote]

(bold emphasis mine)

Faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people....................Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace.

These are just a few lines from Luther's Definition of Faith. A brother Sunday evening asked me how I obtained my faith. Said I was very strange compared to the other members. The way in which I spoke of God. Wanted to know what had happened in the years that I had fallen away. The only answer I could come up with. Grace found me kneeling at the cross and brought me to life. That in a sense I know I am selfish. If I do not give and recieve it, than I will definetly wither away.

The sad thing I believe is that grace to often can give way to pride. Something we all battle. Never having anything to ever be proud of,I now must constantly remind myself to bow my knee. Only because of this ugly thing called pride that infects my heart.

We're saved by Jesus.

It's just as easy to make faith into an idol as it is to do the same with baptism.   Just as dangerous, also.

Is anyone here familiar with the word \"synecdoche?\"    What relevance might that word have to this discussion?

Synecdoche, if I remember, is attributing the qualities of a group to a single representative. For example, \"the chair has spoken\" means that the chairperson has voiced the opinion of a group and decided a thing. Obviously a chair can't speak. But the point is the same.

In this case, I guess you're suggesting that \"faith\" represents the entire Christian walk, from belief, repentance, moral living, ritual purity, sacraments, etc. Departing from the \"faith\" or defending the \"faith\" refer to departing from or defending the whole of Christian doctrine, whatever that might be.

I agree.

So what \"faith\" saves us? Our motivating belief in the sacrifice of Christ, or our subscription to the whole body of Christian doctrine? Both?

I like how the Hebrew writer summarizes faith:

Heb. 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Anyone who comes to him (that has faith that is pleasing to God) must:
a) believe that he exists
b) believe that he rewards
c) earnestly seek him

I break up saving faith into three components: belief, trust, and obedience. Belief is recognizing the existence of God as described in scripture. Trust is recognizing that God is interested in my own life, not just humanity as an impersonal mass, and that he is able and willing to save me personally; I will not slip through the cracks or go unnoticed. Obedience is an attitude of a willingness to serve him in whatever he wills. A dog that I have not commanded is still obedient if I know that he will surely come when I call. His coming when I call is not obedience, it is evidence of obedience. Factors which cause him not to come when I call don't necessarily prove disobedience. I can't expect him to fetch if I've never taught him how.

That is how I reconcile faith and works.

Good illustration, Charlie.

(By the way, I find it interesting that in discussions such as these many are actually discussing \"faith and baptism\", not \"faith and works\". In my experience, many will point to James chapter 2 to justify their baptismal theology, but will recant the same premise at the discussion of other passages and say that baptism is not a work.)

I Peter 3:21 - . . . even baptism doth also now save you . . .

Unlike with the \"faith only\" advocates, nobody in \"baptism is essential\" group contends that the mere act of getting wet saves anybody.    Everyone recognizesPeter is using a synecdoche here (even if they don't know the word, they recognize this is a figure of speech.)  Peter uses baptism, an element or step in the process of salvation to stand in for the entire process.

Likewise, when Paul says we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) or that we receive the promise through faith (Gal. 3:14), he is using fatih as one element to stand in for the entire process of salvation.   This is proven just a few verses down in Galatians where he says that as many have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ.    Unless Paul (or the Holy Spirit?) had a change of heart in those few verses and decided to add in baptism, it seems that Paul is using faith as a synecdoche to mean the entire salvation process of faith, repentance and submission through baptism.     (I was about to say it was clear, but then I remembered that certain people who post here view that word as being nearly an obscenity.)

In Romans and Galatians, Paul chose faith as his synecdoche because he wanted to stress the importance of faith to Christians who were being told that the promises were only for Jews, and to appropriate them, they had to become Jews according to rabbinic law (a process which involved both circumsicion and baptism.)     Peter chose baptism for his synecdoche because, it appears, he wanted to emphasize Christ's suffering, death and burial, of which baptism is a symbol.

I think the Bible clearly teaches fasting, foot washing, lifting up holy hands when you pray, laying on of hands and anointing with oil etc are aso clealy taught in the NT.  I see no reason why we should not be baptized or do any of these other things.  However, if another Christian understands them differently than I do I will not refuse to worship with them or not own then as brother because of our difference in understanding.  Believing that one is saved by faith does not set you free to do as you please.  It simple means you understand that you are sinful, God is holy and your salvation depends upon unmerited grace and favor.  Your faith will cause you to want to live a Godly life and follow Christ to the best of your ability and understanding.  Johnb

Very good explanation Charlie.


Here's how I see it:

I think the whole faith vs works problem is a matter of perception.  Do I have faith or do I say I have faith?

I can say that I'm a good mother, but how will you know if it's true?  Only by observing my actions, of course.  If I say I'm a good mother, but you see me send my kids out in the cold barefoot with no coat, feed them nothing but junk food, and call them \"stupid\", then you know that I have lied because those are not the kinds of things a good mother does.  

If, however, you see me do without a meal so that my children can eat, or stay up all night taking care of one who is sick, or getting up out of my comfortable chair to make sure that they are doing what they've been told to do, then you can reasonably say that I'm a good mother.

Is there a list of things that I must do in order to become a good mother, or do I do good to my children because I am a good mother?  I think it is the latter.

Do I do good works to show that I have faith, or does the faith I have naturally express itself in good works?  Again, I think it is the latter.

:noddingsmiley:

Never

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (boringoldguy @ Mar. 10 2004,1:30)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I Peter 3:21 - . . . even baptism doth also now save you . . .

Unlike with the \"faith only\" advocates, nobody in \"baptism is essential\" group contends that the mere act of getting wet saves anybody.    Everyone recognizesPeter is using a synecdoche here (even if they don't know the word, they recognize this is a figure of speech.)  Peter uses baptism, an element or step in the process of salvation to stand in for the entire process.

Likewise, when Paul says we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) or that we receive the promise through faith (Gal. 3:14), he is using fatih as one element to stand in for the entire process of salvation.   This is proven just a few verses down in Galatians where he says that as many have been baptized in Christ have put on Christ.    Unless Paul (or the Holy Spirit?) had a change of heart in those few verses and decided to add in baptism, it seems that Paul is using faith as a synecdoche to mean the entire salvation process of faith, repentance and submission through baptism.     (I was about to say it was clear, but then I remembered that certain people who post here view that word as being nearly an obscenity.)

In Romans and Galatians, Paul chose faith as his synecdoche because he wanted to stress the importance of faith to Christians who were being told that the promises were only for Jews, and to appropriate them, they had to become Jews according to rabbinic law (a process which involved both circumsicion and baptism.)     Peter chose baptism for his synecdoche because, it appears, he wanted to emphasize Christ's suffering, death and burial, of which baptism is a symbol.[/quote]
bog,
That is an interesting theory, but still is an iference (an interpretation) that you have drawn.  As such, it is not from the scriptures necessarily.  For instance, when Peter in Acts 3 calls for  the listeners to repent and doesn't mention baptism, he says nothing about any \"synecdoche\".  You would think that he would  have mentioned that so that none would be confused!
Rubicon

Never and St.  AMEN!!! to both.  Johnb

First of all, you oughtn't to make much out of anything that the sermon in Acts 3 doesn't say, because Peter never finished it; Chapter 4:1 - 3 tells us that as they were speaking the priests and temple guards came and arrested them.    

Secondly, to use your reasoning, since Peter doesn't mention in I Peter 3:21 that he's speaking figuratively, it must mean that baptism does now save us.   Do you accept that conclusion?

Third, people who are speaking figuratively don't normally indicate that they are doing so.   Hearers and readers are usually assumed to be able to understand figurative language.

Finally, you have ignored the passage in Galatians in which Paul first says that we are saved by faith and then almost immediately says that as many as have been baptized have put on Christ (which seemingly would exclude those who haven't been baptized.)

Personally in my own life I try and do everything I can to be like Christ...

I fail miserably and that is where the Holy Spirit comes in...

But regardless I do \"do\" things for Jesus.

Romans 3, 4 tells me that God owes me nothing though.

That is just the facts.

Those two references should be enough to tell us that works do not save us.

Its Christ that has saved us.

Understanding the figurative, and such things as \"synecdoche\" can be helpful tools in opening the door to further understanding... But they can also become revolving doors to help one arrive at almost any understanding.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (boringoldguy @ Mar. 12 2004,10:38)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][/quote]
First of all, you oughtn't to make much out of anything that the sermon in Acts 3 doesn't say, because Peter never finished it; Chapter 4:1 - 3 tells us that as they were speaking the priests and temple guards came and arrested them.  

My Response:
There are plenty of verses in John that mention zero about baptism and promise salvation to those who believe without further explanation.  Go ahead and throw that Acts verse out, that is fine.

Let's stick with the \"believe only\" verses, then on to Peter if you wish.  For now I want to look at how the original audience would hear things in John and elsewhere where belief is the only requirement listed.  There are obviously verses that consider belief a distinct act and not a \"synecdoche\", such as the one in Romans 10.

You might be right, but all of my questions haven't been answered yet about your viewpoint.  I want to give it a fair shake, but a \"tough shake\" as well!  

Blessings,
Robert

It might be a good idea to take a look at Jesus in determining the answer to the original question.  What did He do when He walked on earth as a man?

Seems to me it is all a matter of attitude.



[!--EDIT|Bill|Mar. 12 2004,11:24--]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Finally, you have ignored the passage in Galatians in which Paul first says that we are saved by faith and then almost immediately says that as many as have been baptized have put on Christ (which seemingly would exclude those who haven't been baptized.)[/quote]

I wonder if perhaps we misunderstand Paul's statement or inference here because we are reading with 21st century eyes.  We need to try to figure out what this statement would have meant to the original readers.

Today, we have a great deal of controversy related to baptism that wasn't a problem for those original readers.  I don't recall any NT authors dealing with baptism questions such as must we, exact method, what kind and how much water, etc.  Off the top of my head I can only recall two controversies.  

1.The believers in Ephesus who hadn't received the Holy Spirit and only knew about John's baptism

2.Those who were causing division by saying that the person who baptised you is the one you are to follow.

As I read the NT it seems to be taken for granted that if you are a believer you will be baptised, and that baptism is for believers.  So if Paul talks about believers he's talking about people who have been baptised, and when he mentions those who have been baptised he's talking about believers.

When we add our own perspective with all of its history we just muddy the waters.

Never

Never
Excellent post.  Good thoughts.
As for me I still believe ML got it right.  Soley by faith and soley by grace.  Johnb

I have a hard time with the \"faith vs. works\" questions.

First, define work.  If work is something we do, isn't believing (faith) something we do?

Secondly, how do you understand salvation and judgment:
I know Eph 2 says we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.

And yet, in Matthew 25 - God judges according to our works - not just rewards or lack of rewards for \"the saved\" - but people's final destinations, heaven or hell, are determined by their works.

In reality baptism isn't something you do, it is something done to you. So while it is a work, it is God's work. If it is God's work then it can rightly be said to be necessary for salvation.

Agape,

Ken