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[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Arkstfan @ Jan. 30 2003,10:19)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nothing is said in the scriptures about having 7up and cornbread in the Lord's supper.  So according to the author's reasoning that is an abiblical question.[/quote]
No you are mixing your logic here.

Scripture tells us a lot of things that baptism does but it never says that it is the mystical moment of reconcilliation with God.

As to the Lord's Supper all we know about 7-up is that it hadn't been invented yet and the folks from Europe, Asia and Africa who transversed the Middle East had yet to make it to the Americas to discover corn (while we are at it they hadn't found potatoes yet either).

Passages dealing with the Lord's Supper only tell us of the use of what they did have.[/quote]
Hello Ark,

I was taking a principle from the event of the Lord's supper.  The fact that they didn't have 7up or cornbread when the scriptures were given wouldn't have a bearing on the principle.

Of course, baptism is spoken of as the moment of entrance into the body of Christ.  Upon obedience to the command to be baptized Christ adds to His body (see Acts 2)....where all spiritual blessings are....including salvation.  We are clothed with Christ, we put on Christ...

Nelta

Nelta Brock
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Hello Charlie -

You ask an intriguing question.  I'm not sure that I comprehend your intent completely - but I'll give it a stab.

I think one of the hard parts of understanding grace is that it is not contingent upon our doing, our reaffirming or our performance.   Many think that if they should somehow not measure up along the way, that God will revoke His blessing.  That is absolutely false.  But let me be clear, ALL are called to be perfectly obedient.  God demands that as a minimum, doesn't he?  But there is a problem.  It's sin.  None of us, not one of us can measure up.  But someone did - perfectly to the point of dying for you and for me.  God's love is perfectly revealed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, our Lord and Savior.  His grace is not contingent upon us at all.  It is contingent upon one's acceptance of His free gift of eternal life by trusting in Jesus alone.  And then, during our lives in Christ Jesus, God by His mercy and grace continues to work in each of us - the process of sanctification - to mold us into the image of Jesus Christ.  That sanctification process is accomplished through His transforming grace.  And it is by His grace that one day we will be glorified - actually made perfect in Christ's image.  

So, Charlie, it isn't whether or not the bridge is sound.  That bridge is our absolute assurance (to continue with the metaphor).  The question to be asked, perhaps, is "How intimate is my relationship with God"?  Am I trusting in Jesus completely or am I attempting to gain favor or secure my salvation by what I can do.  Our best is nothing but bloody rags.  So where does that leave us?  In a desperate state needing to cling to the righteousness of our Lord.  

So, I would suggest that the bridge is absolutely fine, dependable, trustworthy and sound.  What is our motivation in having a relationship with God?  Is it out of a terribly deep reverential and humbling love for the Almighty God, Creator of the universe, our Savior and Redeemer who we are actually indwelled by?  Or is our motivation born out of our need to do something to earn or gain favor?  I believe the latter brings a burden too heavy and yoke too hard.  Jesus promises an easy yoke and light burden (or vica versa).

Well, I hope I addressed your thoughtful question.  And if I didn't I hope these words might find a purpose in yours or someone's life.

Blessings to you.

Steve

i find your points interesting segell, and i'll try to respond in more length later (as for now, just got off work and i'm going home!)
may i just point out that the Bible never says "repent because you're already saved", and never says "confess Christ because you're already saved" or "be baptized because you're already saved" to non-Christians.
the greeks and hebrews had ways of wording sentences that could make it known that our submission was because we were already in a saved state. and they don't do so.
i'll certainly try to look up those books, but please forgive me if i continue to comment on here before i've read them.
again grace is given because of our faith. it is there waiting to be "faith-ed" in. but is not extended to those without faith.
faith is not just belief. it's not just sorrow. it's not just repentence or confession or just baptism. it's all of these things. in encompasses every aspect of us
*belief is hearing and assigning due credit and accuracy to the truth
*sorrow and repentence indicated a remorse for our past
*confession is a verbal use of the tongue to express our belief (from the tongue comes what is in the heart)
*baptism is a physical act of the body that clothes us with Christ as a cry by our conscience for the washing away of our past AND THE raising for a new future
*and evangelism is the enaction of obedience that makes up that future
thus is the whole of man made submissive to servanthood of God just as Christ was submissive (to the point of death) doing what it took "to fulfill all righteousness"


again segell, even if you use the word reliance, that is a choice, a performance, an action by man which must be done every day for grace to save us. reliance is only part of faith - reliance is still dead if it has no works
it is God alone who saves us, i agree wholeheartedly, but not independently of us and our walk here.
again, i see it as a request for extra grace if we expect God to save us without submission to Him and what He has asked us to do.
i think that we might need to clarify "works" better somewhere in this discussion. repentance, confession, baptism aren't "works" the way that some see that word. i'm sure we'll get to it.

gotta run, thanks for the wonderful conversation!

To Chrischar:

I am the "Todd guy" - apparantly, you didn't read my article very carefully - beginning with the first pages.

From the outset, I noted my argument doesn't stand or fall on refuting every error in the other article.  Therefore, I began by aruguing my proposition in the affirmative as originally planned.  

Afterward, I dealt with some of errors in the other article for the benefit of those who may have read it.  Dealing with all the errors contained therein would have taken too long, and I was already going to be several weeks behind my opponent.  Those that were noted were more than sufficient to show the weakness of the other article.  

For example, when I teach about the false doctrine of pre-millennialism, I only deal with the 6 (or so) main points that are fairly common to most P-M theories.  This is sufficient to refute the doctrine without chasing every little nuance of the many slightly differing theories.  Same goes for Calvinism - one only need show the weakness of each of the TULIP petals to refute the whole thing in its entirety.

Second - regarding what you call old church of Christ stuff - where did I ever appeal to any church for what I wrote?  Those who hold the same position as I are continually accused of bias, yet your bias is evident from your post. Why don't you refute the language arguments I used instead of inciting bias with your snide, trite little comments?

Yes, yes, I know - I'm unloving, unkind, un(insert your own adjective here), for pointing this out and challenging you to answer my arguments.  I have participated on this board before, but I left when I found out how intolerant all these tolerant, open-minded are.  

Even posting these remarks is probably a mistake, but I tire of people who will not deal with the issue, but would rather cast disparagements on those who do not agree with their position.

TC

I must have missed something.  Where is this article by Todd?  I would like to read it.

Duckman

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Toddrow wrote:
Any honest, open-minded individual who reads the book of Acts can reach no other conclusion than the necessity of baptism to receive salvation and remission of sins.[/quote]
So, anyone that doesn't see it the way that you see it is dishonest and close-minded?... Todd, this is the exact type of statement which causes so much division and contention within the body of Christ... I also noticed several such statements in your response article.

Considering that the current, majority view in the CoC regarding baptism has, as you have alluded to in your article, only been held for (approximately) the past 200 years, am I to understand that dishonesty and close-mindedness reigned until the 19th century?... Where was the church during all of that time?...

I don't have a lot of time right now to discuss this, but, in all due respect Todd, you should really think long and hard regarding such generalizing, accusatory statements before writing them. I say this in love.

newtome

Please, please, please read my posts more carefully.  We are called to do good deeds!!!  Read Eph 2:10.  I've never, ever said that we aren't called to do deeds.  We disagree on the purpose of those deeds.

Lastly, newtome, I say this with respect.  Your arguments are born out of the perspective of certain churches of Christ that espouse a kind of works theology, for lack of a better phrase.   Those teachings are indeed what I am arguing against because I believe they are spiritually dangerous.  I have previously explained why.  I have seen sad and terrible damage to people as a result of embracing such a theology - especially if they are so bold as to disagree.  I've seen sectarian attitudes, judgmentalism, legalism, shunning, argument, division, etc, etc, etc.  I believe it is all born out of this misplaced and misunderstood meaning of God's plan of salvation by His grace through faith.  I say this very, very respectfully.  

My wife's poor mother, who is on her death bed, who worshipped in a very conservative (for lack of a better description) church of Christ and who embraced the same theology as yours (the five essential steps to salvation) said recently that she is not sure of her salvation.  She doesn't know if she has been "good enough".  How terribly sad that she has missed the promise of assurance.  How sad, that after "doing" all the right things, she doesn't really know Christ in such an intimate way that brings assurance without any doubt.  Well, the truth is she hasn't been "good enough" - neither have I nor you nor Paul nor Peter nor anyone who has ever lived EXCEPT for the Lord Jesus Christ.  The good news is God calls us to trust Him for our righteousness - that's it, that's all.  Then experience the joy that Christ wants us to experience through our obedience - His joy!!  And experience living in the awesome power of the Holy Spirit as He prepares us for the work the Father planned in advance for us to do.  

No, newtome, we're not puppets.  That is a tired, old argument of those who wish to have some merit accorded them in their "obedience".   I mean no disrespect.

Finally as to grace - all experience God's grace by the fact that they live and breathe and experience His creation.  We know that is what is called common grace.  Saving grace is imparted to them that, through faith, trust completely in the Lord Jesus Christ for their righteousness - not of anything of themselves.  By definition, Christians are saved by God's grace, live by His grace and will be glorified by His grace.  I humbly suggest that you prayerfully consider a deep study of God's grace.

Steve

Oh Todd,

One more suggestion.  Please get off the denominational thing.

Forgive me, but I can't understand how one in the churches of Christ denomination can look at another denomination and use the phrase, "denominational error", "denominational false teaching" or as you put it being mislead and misguided "by denominational teaching".  What do you think you're reflecting in your writing?  

You may say your non-denominational - but that simply is not true.  Autonomous, yes; non-denominational, no.  The Lord's church is comprised of ALL believers no matter where they might worship, Todd.  Agree?

Todd, I really do worship in a non-denominational church.  I mean, this fellowship began with four couples meeting in a home just over 20 years ago.  We now have in excess of three thousand in attendance weekly, missionaries in Indonesia and Khyrgistan (sp?), three church plantings, etc.  I'm not saying that to boast in ourselves but in our God and to point out that we who believe and happen to worship at Grace Fellowship Church are members of the Lord's church.

The denominational accusations are kind of funny, Todd from one outside your denomination as well as the others you lump into one word, denomination.  Todd, you just can't set yourself apart and be holy - only God has that power, by His grace through faith in His Son.

By the way, I would agree there are many who have made a mockery of God's Truth and grace.  And I ask His forgiveness when, in my sin, I've done the same.

Take care.

Steve

I just want to point out that nowhere in the bible do I remember seeing, "Age of Accountability."

Topic: "Are Unbaptized Believers Lost?"
Answer: God knows.

Is baptism necessary for salvation?
Answer: It was for mine.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Some, like newtome, hold that righteousness is found in a person's obedience.  [/quote]

my bible told me so:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
[/quote]


[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]And that we MUST be obedient in order to be saved.  What a heavy burden and hard yoke!!  [/quote]

if you are not obedient, what are you? disobedient.
there is nothing heavy about obedience to love of Christ unless one feels unwilling to obey.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--].  Contrasting that, I also find the person, realizing his spiritual bankruptcy and absolute need for redemption and rescue - crying out at that moment, calling upon God, asking for forgiveness by declaring his acknowledgement of his sin and his complete faith/trust in Jesus being saved at that exact moment.  [/quote]

you've said before that nothing one does is a contingency for salvation. what of this "calling upon God, asking for forgiveness, declaring" etc.etc.? if one did not do these things would he/she be saved?

see, no matter what you put in there, the human's actions and choices are absolutely necessary for salvation.
if you cut baptism out, you might as well remove the need to confess that Jesus is the Christ. really, why do it? it has no bearing on your salvation, right?
and why even repent? that requires performance on your part, and by your rational - a human's performance has no effect on his salvation.
however, grace is not given independently of human choices. grace is not salvation for all of mankind. it is the chance of salvation for all of mankind. for all men are not going to be saved. there must be something setting the saved and the unsaved apart. and that's your actions. faith is an action. baptism is an action. confessing Jesus as Christ is an action. salvation is contingent upon your actions for it sets you apart from the unsaved.

thanks for your spirit segell and for your conversation! :thumbup:

newtome -

Please take the opportunity to read the books I suggested.  It might help clarify grace for you.  

First of all, by definition, grace is unmerited favor - not a "free gift".  The free gift is eternal life that God grants to unmerited sinners such as you and me BY His grace through faith.  

I'm afraid that your study begins quite a circuitous route to get to your conclusions.   It seems your argument is based on finding a pathway that would support what you believe with regard to the purposes of baptism and what a person MUST do in order to be saved.  

God's purpose and plan for salvation was accomplished 2000 years ago in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.  We receive the gift of eternal life by trusting, through faith, in all that Jesus accomplished.  Period.  A "sinner's prayer" or a "baptism" does not in any way save.  God, by His grace, saves us through faith, newtome.  Our obedience doesn't save us.  The perfect obedience that saves was accomplished 2000 years ago.  We must trust that.  Faith is not just a way of life it is the purpose of living - it's one's foundation and reason for living.  Faith leads to doing good works - but from what motivation?  To be saved or to maintain salvation?  No, no, no!  Works we perform as Christians should be from the motivation of love and reverence for God because of His awesome and undefinably wondrous love He has for us and as demonstrated through the death of Jesus.  Love and reverence for God should be the motivations for our obedience.  Jesus said something along the lines of  ...if you love Me you will obey me if you don't love me you won't obey me.  John 14:23.

And, newtome, the key to understanding the purpose of obedience is found in, among many other verses, Eph. 2:10.  newtome, our Lord expects and demands our obedience out of LOVE for Him.  Why?  So that our joy may be complete by having HIS joy in us, to the glory of the Father.  John 15:9-11.  

newtome - the examples you raise of things that MUST be done to be saved are things that are done because WE ARE saved.  And where do all of these actions come from?  A new heart, changed by the power of the Holy Spirit, opening our hearts to God's truth as found in Jesus Christ.  Anyone not willing to repent, anyone not willing to confess, anyone not willing to submit to Christ's lordship would seem to be one who is not in Christ.  Those musts that you point to are, in my view Scriptural barometers of our faith or lack thereof.  

I can't imagine anyone whose heart has been changed and whose life has been redeemed by the grace and power of Almighty God NOT responding by repenting, confessing, being baptized and submitting in obedience to Christ.  Those are the results of being saved!!  

You said that we can receive God's grace by our belief and actions.  newtome, with respect, that is false.  If we have actions in order to receive His grace, then it is no grace at all.  (Romans 11:6 - please read).  I'm not saying we aren't called to action!!  God forbid!   We are definitely called to action.  The question is, for what purpose.  

I appreciate your time and effort.  We view Scripture from much different perspectives, newtome.  Seems you look at Scripture from a standpoint of knowing what you must do to earn or contribute to salvation.  I don't see the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ - the core of which is God's grace - having anything to do with what we must do, rather it's all about what Jesus Christ did.  

Lastly, what you ascribe is not different from any other religion in the world and even some that would fall under the umbrella of Christendom.  Every other religion requires and demands certain behavior in order to merit a deity's favor.  That's not the plan of Almighty God, maker of heaven and earth.  His plan required that He do it all.  Him and Him alone.  To His glory for ever and ever.  And how, then, are we saved?  By His grace (and doing) through our faith (complete and trustful reliance).

Thanks, again.  And God bless you.

Steve

Hey Chris,

Well, if you look at Todd's first page it says he is from Alabama. At some legalistic church there.

Has he even read the article he is responding to?

Tyler

I am here to discuss (debate) this GraceCentered article on baptism.  I printed it out (35 pages) and am reading it a little at a time.  I'm sorry I am unable to check into this forum often because I have 4 very active lists to keep up..with help, of course.

The Introduction had a problem right off the bat:  AN ABIBLICAL QUESTION.  Whomever wrote this "book" said that the scriptures do not mention that an unbaptised believer would be lost..therfore it is an abiblical question.  Of course, I deny that.  Lets compare that with the Lord's supper.  Nothing is said in the scriptures about having 7up and cornbread in the Lord's supper.  So according to the author's reasoning that is an abiblical question.

However, scripture DOES tell us what to have in the Lord's supper.  That then says 7up and cornbread is not not acceptable to our Lord.  Now compare that with the unbaptized believer.  Scripture tells us WHAT we must do to be saved.  WHAT puts us into Christ where all spiritual blessings are....including salvation.  So that does away with the idea that the scriptures do not say anything about an unbaptized believer being lost.

Well, I am only beginning the reading of the article and will add my thoughts as I continue.  Feel free to agree, disagree, or just pass over.

Nelta


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[!--EDIT|tennman|Feb. 07 2003,2:39--]

It's on the same page as the other. Just go to the home page of gcm........to that picture of the trees and the water.....click there.

TyLER

newtome

We've discussed our respective perspectives at length.   Not sure anything new can be added.  I'm afraid that I don't see
Scripture supporting your conclusions that God tenders different graces in response to our different actions.  Actually, I believe according to Scripture, His grace is given in spite of our doing - not because of it.  Anyway, I've written on this already and appreciate your polite exchange.  

I just believe that it is error to think that God's grace is dependent upon a series of actions by man.  It's dependent upon all the doing of the Lord Jesus Christ.  We, just have to trust in Him for God's grace.  newtome, there is a focus problem - placing much too much focus on the person and not on the Lord Jesus Christ.  

Take a look at your last post:  "in a like manner I can do a deed..."  No, newtome, the Truth of the matter is you can't.  I hope that you will prayerfully consider this.

Thanks for your expressions.

Steve

Segell, that is truly sad about your wife's mother. I have said a prayer for her that the Lord will place on her heart the assurance and confidence He wants her to possess. I hope that you have read to her those scriptures that show her that Jesus' righteousness is counted as her righteousness ... that no one can take her, one of His precious sheep, from His everlasting arms ... that His blood continues to cleanse her of all sin ... that His Spirit is given to her as a guarantee of His promise.

Todd

A couple of quick points:

1.  Thanks for the clarification.

2.  Paul tells us we are sinners by nature.  Please read Romans 8, verses 1 through 11.  Galatians 5: 16 and 17.   Paul writes that we are all sinners and the result of sin is death.  By our very nature we are sinful.  By God's grace through faith we are imputed with Christ's righteousness and enabled to live by the Spirit that dwells within us.  As a side note, Todd, if we can't see our sin for what it is, we will never be able to see Christ Jesus and all who He is.

3.  When Jesus is talking of a child or children, He is talking about their eagerness to listen and obey and believe.  It is their humility that Christ wants us to have.  Matt 18:4; Psalms 51:17.  It doesn't mean they are without sin.  Psalm 51:5.  Sin entered into the world by one man and sin is defeated by one Man.  So says Scripture, Romans 5:12 - 17.

4.  I don't think I contradict myself.  When speaking of salvation, and I again stress SALVATION (you know, some will misstate my position on our [Christians'] call to obedience) our works/obedience is NOT taken into account our trust in JESUS' righteousness and obedience is.

I assume you grer up being taught a certain perspective and theology.  I know I am suggesting a complete paradigm shift in that thinking.  Or it might appear that I am.  But really what I am urging all to do is shift the focus from us and onto the Lord Jesus Christ.  

I prayerfully ask that you consider a study centered on God's sovereignty, our sin and God's plan of salvation - the core of which is grace.  Instead of scouring Scripture with a view of finding all manner of examples of man's obedience (and there a many of them), scour Scripture with a view of finding out what God does in the lives of those He chooses.  

I believe you will begin to see less of you and more of Christ and the examples of obedience in Scripture will take on new meaning and purpose.  Anyway, I submit this for your consideration but ask that you first take all of this to Christ in prayer.

Thanks, Todd

Steve

Nelta and anyone else:

For purposes of this discussion, how are we defining "unbaptized"?

Thanks.

Steve

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (Nelta @ Jan. 29 2003,07:32)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nothing is said in the scriptures about having 7up and cornbread in the Lord's supper.  So according to the author's reasoning that is an abiblical question.[/quote]
No you are mixing your logic here.

Scripture tells us a lot of things that baptism does but it never says that it is the mystical moment of reconcilliation with God.

As to the Lord's Supper all we know about 7-up is that it hadn't been invented yet and the folks from Europe, Asia and Africa who transversed the Middle East had yet to make it to the Americas to discover corn (while we are at it they hadn't found potatoes yet either).

Passages dealing with the Lord's Supper only tell us of the use of what they did have.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Nelta wrote:
Upon obedience to the command to be baptized Christ adds to His body (see Acts 2)....[/quote]

Greetings.

Just for the sake of discussion, as far as addition to the body is concerned... I would like to offer the following:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]"Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand." (Acts 4:4, KJV)[/quote]

What was the message that they heard?... What did they believe?... How were they added to the body?

The context of this passage shows Peter preaching again to the Jews. This is the message that they heard and believed. In Acts 3:19, Peter tells them, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing come from the presence of the Lord...".

No mention at all of baptism here...

They believed his message.

They were added to the body.

In conclusion, it seems that there is just as much evidence in Acts 3 and 4 for addition by belief and repentance, as there is in Acts 2 for addition by belief, repentance, and baptism...

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (JerryBrooke @ Jan. 30 2003,11:21)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I just want to point out that nowhere in the bible do I remember seeing, "Age of Accountability."[/quote]
Hello Jerry,

So might you be saying that "the age of accountability" is simply abiblical as the author of the article is saying about "The unbaptized believer is lost" is abiblical?  Actually, what you said fits his reasoning perfectly.

However, the scriptures do speak of "the age of accountability" in that there is an age when someone IS accountable.  First he must be at an age that he can believe (have faith) without going through his parents' faith.  Then he must know that he sins AND he must be willing to not only acknowledge that he sinned but be able to repent (turn away from) those sins and THEN he must be immersed in water that he might  accept the grace offered at the cross.  He must immulate the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

So there is indeed an "age of accountability" and that is not abiblical.

Nelta

Nelta Brock
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newtome

Thanks for the response.  And yes, you do bring up some core theological differences.  I don't have the time right now to respond to all, but I will soon.  

Basically - our difference is found in where we center our salvation.  Yours, seems to me, is centered on the individual and mine on God.  If we could save ourselves, even in part, it would make our Lord's death meaningless and make mockery of His grace.  The Bible says we boast in nothing less than Jesus Christ, His death, His righteousness.  Where do we receive the power or ability to even believe?  Where does that come from?  Not ourselves.  God in His mercy and grace works His will in our lives - His will which was in place before time began.  Ephesians 2:10.  We were at war with God, the Bible says.  Who changed our hearts?  I know it wasn't me.  I know that had I been left to my own desires, God would not have a place in my life.  So who changed me?  The Sovereign God Almighty through the power of His Holy Spirit opened my eyes to see my sin and desperate need and opened my heart to respond.  I was broken and He redeemed and rescued me.  

God seals me with His Spirit by His grace through faith in His Son.  And yes, I believe that I am in Him and He is in me.  Eternity has begun in my life.  That hope is real.  That assurance mine.  I am His eternally by His grace and mercy through faith in Christ Jesus.  

newtome, we certainly are called to do good works.  We are called into His service not because He needs us, but because we desperately need Him.  Those works are not done in order to be saved or to continue to remain saved.  Those works are accomplished because we love our Lord and that love is demonstrated by obedience.  If one is obedient in order to be saved or to continue being saved, that person is making a mockery of God's grace demonstrated in the ultimate perfect sacrifice of His Son, Jesus.  Please try and see the distinction I am attempting to make.  What I have written about and what we are discussing is very, very different to many in the cofC.   I realize that.  But many in the cofC are seeing God's Truth in a different light and resting completely in His grace and mercy.  newtome, only Jesus Christ was obedient and it's His obedience we trust, never ours.  We fall short, constantly! The Bible tells us this.  

Yes, we do need to trust in/have faith in/believe in our Lord and Savior.  My question to you is:  where did we obtain the ability to do so?

Unfortunately I have to run.  Thank you for your response.  Look forward to more conversation with you.

Take care.

Steve

Can I take God completely for granted and still be justified?

example. I drive up to a bridge. Before crossing I stop the car, get out, and look at the bridge. I can see that the timbers are sound, the joints are firm, the planks are all there, the pilings a buried: it's all good. So I hop in and start driving on it. Thing is, this is a 100 mile-long bridge. At first, I'm singing praises to the wonderful bridge and the amazing efforts of its builders. However, about 10 miles along, my mind is a million miles away. I have so much faith and trust in that bridge that I simply don't think about it.

At one point in my life, I put my complete trust in God to save me through Jesus. I reaffirm that faith every single day. Now if, someday, I simply stop thinking about it, will the bridge ever collapse? Or is the integrity of the bridge somehow dependent on my appreciation of it?

Steve,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]It wasn't until I met my wife that I was introduced to the denomination of churches of Christ.  At least to a very legalistic, sectarian and exclusive grouping of CofC churches.
For the last four years I've had the opportunity to study, debate, love and share with many in the CofC.  I was thrilled to meet and correspond with many who actually are Christ and grace centered and share the view I've been trying to communicate with regard to God's grace and baptism - Ed Fudge, Max Lucado, Dallas Burdette to name but three.  (I had thought ALL the CofC were like those churches I had experience with - about 5 different ones in various places in the country).  In order to better communicate with my then girlfriend (now my wife) I needed to understand her point of view and heritage much more clearly.  

I found it curious that the churches spawned out of the RM - a movement honestly and sincerely devoted to unity - were so sharply divided and with such animosity (in some places).  [/quote]

While I don't have much time to make a comment (leave for worship in 10 min), just wanted to say thanks for this discussion and the info you have given.  We have alot in common in our background and experience with the CoC!  I wish I had had some of the resources available that you have been able to draw on when my wife and I met.  Would have made things easier, to say the least.  But I wouldn't trade for the experience I have had in the CoC since 1972 and the growth in me and my family because of those experiences.

newtome:

Hi and thanks for your comments.  Our theologies do differ and I appreciate the opportunity to explore those differences.  I have not referred to Scripture very often in my recent writings and I think it is certainly time to do so.  Will you bear with me as I offer the following for your consideration?

God is totally sovereign (Job 37:23), the Creator of all things (Genesis 1) and that author of everything that is good.  Our Sovereign God owes us nothing  (Job 41:11).  He is not in the least obligated to us in any way (Romans 9:20and 21).   Yet, God loves us beyond imagination (John 3:16; 1 John 4: 10; 1 John 3:1).  So much so that perfect love was demonstrated in Christ's death (Romans 5:6-8).  We are sinners deserving death (Romans 6:23).  And how is this sin problem dealt with?  By trusting in all that Jesus accomplished in His perfect living, dying and rising.  We are saved by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) -  not by faith or obedience in order to merit God's grace.  That would allow a selfish boast, would it not?  But what about this grace?

I think it's important to focus on our spiritual condition apart from Jesus Christ - so that we can start to have an understanding of God's grace.  Please read Isaiah 53:6; Romans 3:10 - 20 for an idea of our sin and then read what our almighty and sovereign God thinks of our sin by reading Romans 1:18; even our righteous works and sin as revealed in Isaiah 64: 6 and 7.  We were in a dreadful, desperate place before being saved, weren't we?  There can be nothing, even in the slightest, coming from a person like me - a sinner, that merits righteousness apart from Christ Jesus.  In fact apart from Christ we would still be in that place.  (Remember, newtome, my comments have always been directed toward salvation - not the responsibilities we, as Christians, are commanded to meet and privileged to perform.)  Certainly we are to obey - the question is:  what is our motivation to obey?  Our motivation should be out of our love and reverence for God.  Right?  Not as a means from which we receive His mercy and grace.  God loves me in spite of my sin and in spite of any work and/or obedience on my part.  Grace means that God's love is not contingent upon my performance, it's in spite of it!!  He asks that I trust Him and Him alone.

My point with regard to obedience is if we bind one to obeying in order to receive God's grace or keep His grace, then we are making that a burden and that obedience will be for naught.   Ephesians chapter 2 spells it out very clearly what leads to salvation, especially in verses 8 through 10:  "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.  For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."  (And yes, I do believe that God predestines our lives, newtome, because the bible says so.  Romans 8:28 -30.)

Lastly, for now  :D, I have never said that "nothing one does is a contingency for salvation".  We must have a saving faith/belief/trust in all that Jesus accomplished in His life, death and resurrection.  That is how our Lord's free gift is received - by His grace through faith.  Out of that faith from in our heart we gladly confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  Romans 10:10.  

Newtome, when we are pricked to the very core of our hearts of the reality of our spiritual bankruptcy, when we in desperation awake to our deadly condition and need to be rescued, and when we come to realize that God loves us so much that He died for you and me - we come to faith and we are, BY GOD'S GRACE, saved.  (Just want to emphasize - not shout   :) ).  And, because of this our hearts are changed by the power of the Holy Spirit.  That change leads to repentance, confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, obedience that results in our submission to baptism and a life of faithfulness by the transforming grace of God through the sanctifying power of His Holy Spirit.  You see, I think those things that many would say must be done in order to be saved - are actually responses to being saved.  Furthermore, those things mentioned are in a way barometers to measure where our hearts really are (this is my view).  Am I repenting, confessing, being baptized and remaining faithful in order to receive God's mercy and grace or am I repenting, confessing, being baptized and remaining faithful because I have been saved by God's grace through faith.  Newtome, I choose the latter.  

Why?  Because it makes so much sense.  But more importantly, it keeps as the core of the Gospel message the awesome grace of God and not a Gospel where the core is contingent upon my performance.  The performance that saves is Christ Jesus'.  The obedience that merits salvation is Christ Jesus'.  The blood that washes me clean is Christ Jesus'.  The sacrifice that paid my debt is Christ Jesus'.  And when it comes finally down to it Jesus says "Trust me".  And by God's power in my life, I choose to do just that.  To the glory of the Father for ever and ever.  Amen?

Well, I just read this over and I apologize for some of the rambling and perhaps disjointed thoughts.  I hope I haven't been confusing.  

Remember that Peter, the one who denied Christ three times and the one who deeply understood God's grace and forgiveness exhorts us to "grow in the grace and knowledge" of the Lord Jesus Christ.  Both the grace and knowledge are things we will continue to learn more about and to have revealed to us deeper and deeper meanings as God determines our capability to comprehend.  God's grace is more than just a word.  It is very awesome to comprehend.  I can't get my arms around it all - but I'm enjoying His teaching very much.  

Let me suggest two books.  The first one, written by a man I deeply respect and who's history is with the churches of Christ, is entitled "The Great Rescue" by Edward Fudge (Mr. Fudge, please forgive me for referring to you as Ed in a previous posting - I know you do prefer Edward  :doh: ) and the other is "Transforming Grace - Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love" by Jerry Bridges.  

Well, thanks for reading.  I think perhaps this will be my last long winded posting on this topic (I don't want to beat a dead horse) but I would be happy to respond to any questions as succinctly as possible.

Grace and peace to you, newtome.

Steve

Hebrews 5:8-10
"Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek".

I John 5:3
"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome"

If we must obey, are we not a participant?  If we are an active participant, are we not "working"?  

The argument surrounding baptism reminds me of the incident in John 5 - (this is verse 39)
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life".

Are we not too focused on straining through scripture to determine the exact point of salvation when we should be out in the world preaching a gospel that results in obedience?

Are we to obey the Lord to receive salvation??  Yes
How??  Repent AND be baptized (many forget the repent part)

I John 5:13
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life".

My heart aches for those that claim to be in Christ, yet are not assured of their salvation.  Having been raised in the CoC, I have personally witnessed (and felt) a large number of people that have obeyed the gospel call, regularly attend services, love the Lord, and yet do not know if they are "saved."  It is horrible state to be in.  Where is the joy?  Where is the hope?  How can we be effective to a lost world if we believe that WE are still "lost"?

We, Christians, must rise to our calling as the elect of God (please do not read in Calvinism, I am using Biblical terms here), and be proud of only our salvation through Jesus Christ, and show the world the joy and peace we have in that blessed assurance.

- Larry.

jarschqua

Well, it seems that you're trying to make a point by comparing matters that are not comparable.  Scripture is quite clear that we are saved, we have salvation by God's grace, not of works or anything we might do to get it, but by grace through faith so THAT we will be able to perform those good works He planned in advance (before time) for us to do to the glory of the Father.  Ephesians 2:8-10.  

Now the Jericho example would work and be consistent with Ephesians 2:8-10 if we say that by God's grace He delivered Jericho to Joshua.  Now, by trusting God, loving Him for His great mercy - Joshua obeys God.  Joshua doesn't obey in order to take Jericho - he obeys because Jericho was already given by God's grace and Joshua has faith in what God proclaimed.  That's what gave Joshua Jericho - his faith in God.  It's pretty simple.  And notice how it constantly keeps the focus upon God and our desperate need for him and off of us who labor in vain in a desperate attempt to gain God's favor.

Steve

i for one appreicate where you're coming from as per "inciting bias via snide and trite little comments" here sometimes todd; hard to discuss a topic when other posters attack your person, not the issue being explored.
i must say, though there is still a great deal of reasonable debate that can be found here for all sides of a topic. and i think most posts (from everyone) are pretty caring, or least not intentionally offensive.
:)
though i agree, tennman - your comment was far out of line

Thanks Todd... That seems to have worked.

I will read through it this weekend... If the Lord wills.

Imagine being God.

Imagine making a creature and telling him how to behave properly and then watching him deliberately disobey you at his own peril. Watch him destroy the other things you made for him to enjoy. Watch him corrupt other creatures.

Imagine sending you son to die just to pay for the things that your creatures do. Watch your son die for people who hate him and reject his sacrifice altogether while continuing to do wrong and spoiling your creation.

Now imagine them changing. Watch their hearts as the love you have shown slowly starts to sink into their stupid skulls. Watch them gradually soften and accept what you have done for them. Watch that moment of horror when they first realize what they've been doing. Watch that moment of wonder when they finally realize that Jesus paid for their sins. Watch them turn their lives to you and determine to do as you've told. See them profess their faith in your son's sacrifice; see them re-enact that sacrifice in their own lives in baptism; see them living year after year in your honor.

Now, was there one single moment when you instantly changed your attitude toward them from condemnation to graciousness? Why do we make God's grace seem like an instantaneous and automatic response on His part to our baptism? God is a person. When we do wrong, he remembers for a long time. When we walk in his ways, he puts those sins away from us. He knows us and loves us. He's not a teller machine that dispenses grace to those who know the code.

here's a question

if someone is given grace are they saved? :angel:
or can you be given grace and still not be saved?

re. newtome and Segell ... I don't know about anyone else, but personally I read "grace" in both your prespectives. Maybe different ways of expressing, but God's grace is there when it's all boiled down to "the main thing."  I would think you both would agree that God's grace is offered to all, though not all will receive it.  Yes?

All we can do with grace is respond to it. Accept and obey, trust and follow; or reject and continue in disobedience and following our own selfish will. If responding to grace counts as a work, then count me among the guilty.

There is not one breath that I draw in this life but is granted me by my Creator. Even so, I have to breathe. I can't hold my breath until I turn blue, saying to myself that since every breath is given to me by God I shouldn't attempt to breathe myself. God made me and gave me a body which requires breathing on a regular basis in order to live. Doing what He designed me to do doesn't take away the fact that life and breath are granted by Him.

See what I'm saying? Doing - yes, dare I say it, *doing* - what my Heavenly Father tells me to do, not something I make up off the top of my head - ("God, I'm gonna jump rope 1000 times 'n then stand on my head for 10 minutes 'n quote a buncha scriptures while doing this. When I'm done, I expect you to pardon my sins and save me.") - can never take away from His grace. Because He cannot take away from His grace. So whatever He does or says or commands of those who seek and follow Him is part of His grace. How can God be God and grace not be included in every aspect of His plan for our redemption?

Charlie, excellent post, thanks!

all i need say is that the Bible doesn't say be baptized because i'm already saved.
that's sufficient.

grace to you and your mother :pray:

Quick note to Steve and nevertheless,

The first part of what I posted was attributed to you, but actually typed by Spurly - my mistake.  Spurly, see my answer to you in my reply to Steve.

To nevertheless - you wrote:
[Why is it so important for us to pinpoint a moment in time when we move from unsaved to saved?

[Which is the better attitude - to be baptized so we won't get zapped (fire insurance) or to be baptized because God asked us to (obedience motivated by love)?  Telling someone that they aren't saved until they are baptized only puts the fear of hell in them.  Telling them that God loves them - the whole story - leads them to naturally ask, "What does God want me to do?"]

I generally agree with your post and the direction you are going, but let me make this point:

Either attitude (fear or love) is acceptable according to the scripture.  Which attitude do you think prompted the Jews at Pentecost?  I believe fear since Peter had just indicted them of the murder of the now risen Son of God.  Paul said God commands all men everywhere to repent in view of the judgment (Acts 17:30-31) - I believe there is also a "fear factor" involved here.

It is vitally important to know at what point a person is saved.  God has made it clear, and if people cannot be shown conclusively from the Scripture that they are lost, then the Great Commission and its Gospel lose their power.

When people in the book of Acts asked what to do to be saved, they were all brought to a specific point at which they knew they were saved and no longer lost.

Just a thought or two.

Todd